---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/18/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:30 AM - Re: When Can I rivet the Front to Rear Fuse? (Jari Kaija) 2. 03:42 AM - Re: 701 First Flight (Jean-Paul Roy) 3. 04:02 AM - Re: nylon brake lines - mine broke (Michel Therrien) 4. 04:33 AM - Re: 701 First Flight (Rick R) 5. 05:22 AM - Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety (John Bolding) 6. 05:35 AM - Re: 701 First Flight (n801bh@netzero.com) 7. 05:57 AM - Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety (Garrou, Douglas) 8. 06:58 AM - Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety (Dave Ruddiman) 9. 07:17 AM - Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 10. 08:23 AM - Re: 701 First Flight (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_Gestur?=) 11. 08:24 AM - Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 09:01 AM - Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety (Dan Hill) 13. 11:17 AM - Re: 701 First Flight (Chuck Deiterich) 14. 11:23 AM - RE : Re: 701 First Flight (Carlos Sa) 15. 01:44 PM - FIRST FLIGHT OF N822W (DICK WILBERS) 16. 05:37 PM - Re: 701 First Flight (NYTerminat@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:30:27 AM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When Can I rivet the Front to Rear Fuse? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" > Does anyone see any problem with this? It works just fine. ---------------------------------- http://www.jarikaija.com http://www.project-ch701.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:02 AM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight Mike, I wouldn't be surprised if your float created a nose heavy situation. That sometime happens on float. In anyway, a weight and balance should be done. Just my opinion Jean-Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: MElrod3732@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight The first flight of N727EP, a 701 on amphib floats & a Rotax 912S, occurred 2 days ago at Linden-Prices airport ( 10 miles south of Flint, MI ). The plane performed & handled great, however I did run out of "UP" elevator trim. After an hour flight, I returned for an uneventful landing. I adjusted the elevator trim tab twice to the point where it is almost 90 degrees to the elevator at full travel and I still run out of "UP" trim during slower speeds. I am wondering whether an adjustment to the horizontal stab might help? Thanks again to everyone that has answered my question & offered building advice during the last 2 1/2 years. Happy building, Mike Elrod ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:29 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: nylon brake lines - mine broke --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien If I remember, there are two plastic tubing we can use. Nylaflow, which is the more common, less transparent, lower burst pressure, and Nylo Seal that is a more rigid, transparent and higher burst pressure (and a more expensive). I guess you have the Nylaflow tubing. I'm using NiloSeal and I do not have this problem .... yet. I noticed however, that the red brake lube tends to turn yellow after a while. I flushed and replaced the lube a month ago.. I'll see if it stays red (btw, the lube that was flushed was more pink than yellow... it just appeared yellow in the tubing). Michel --- xl wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > > As I reported, my nylon brake line broke on the way > to Abbotsford, BC. > The attachments gave way and allowed the line to > flex in the airstream. > In the field we took the fitting apart and > reinstalled the existing line. > I noted that the line was crazed. I'm using the > 'flexible nylon tubing' > supplied by Zenith Aircraft. > ... ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:03 AM PST US From: Rick R Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight Much congrats ! ! ! Well done ! MElrod3732@aol.com wrote: The first flight of N727EP, a 701 on amphib floats & a Rotax 912S, occurred 2 days ago at Linden-Prices airport ( 10 miles south of Flint, MI ). Do not archive Rick Sharpsburg, GA. USA http://www.n701rr.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:35 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety I said I was gonna go back to lurking for a year or two after my long post on how people kill themselves in booths of bad design but somehow this thing on breathing air keeps popping up. If you read the MSDS sheet on epoxies and polyurethanes you will discover that MOST have an ingredient called isocynate ,polyiso, polyisocynate or something close. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO SCREW WITH. Several facts on the stuff: 1. Different people get "sensitized" to it at different levels of exposure, both time and density. Some are very high, some are very low. 2. Serious breathing problems arise when you cross the line. Where's the line? See #1. 3. Once you are sensitized there is no going back, you are for life. Kinda like AIDS. 4. Once sensitized, symptoms reoccur upon exposure to as little as 6% (I THINK I remember that number correctly, it was VERY low in any case) to what got you sensitized in the first place. Remember what I said in an earlier post about nasty stuff that has poor or no warning signs that it's coming thru the mask? THIS IS THE STUFF!! It AIN'T like lacquer thinner !! 3M had a cartridge mask that was approved for the above class of materials, the approval was contingent on you changing the cartridges EVERYDAY. I used to GIVE the mask away so I'd get the cartridge business. Don't know if they still sell it or not, imagine the corporate lawyers went into rigor on that one. I got sensitized to this stuff when I worked for DeVilbiss Co. a long time ago (maybe 1970), was down in the hold of a shrimp boat in Brownsville TX demonstrating spraying urethane foam (it had isocynate). Was a newbie in the business and thought I was cool wearing my new orange DeV mask while everyone else wore proper stuff. It took about a month to come thru the aftermath. Admittedly the concentration was high, refer to #1. I had buddies in the industry that had problems in low concentration wearing full blown fresh air equipment. 35 yrs later I can be in the front office of a body shop where someone is spraying Imron on a fender on sawhorses outside the booth and I'll come down with coughing and difficulty breathing. I'm not dreaming this up folks. If you have a problem with this stuff I'm gonna tell your wives I told you so and they will beat the crap out of you while you are coughing and wheezing on the couch. LOW&SLOW John Bolding Oh yeah, I ran into this neat article on corrosion control, this guy knows his stuff. http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/faysurface.htm ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:44 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight Congrats on your first flight... It appears that the 701/801 series runs out of elevator authority at low airspeeds so the remedy is to keep up ypur speed a little. Good luck on all your advertures with your new toy. .. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- MElrod3732@aol.com wrote: The first flight of N727EP, a 701 on amphib floats & a Rotax 912S, occur red 2 days ago at Linden-Prices airport ( 10 miles south of Flint, MI ). The plane performed & handled great, however I did run out of "UP" ele vator trim. After an hour flight, I returned for an uneventful landing . I adjusted the elevator trim tab twice to the point where it is almost 90 degrees to the elevator at full travel and I still run out of "UP" t rim during slower speeds. I am wondering whether an adjustment to the h orizontal stab might help? Thanks again to everyone that has answered m y question & offered building advice during the last 2 1/2 years. Happ ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== Congrats on your first flight... It appears that the 701/801 serie s runs out of elevator authority at low airspeeds so the remedy is to ke ep up ypur speed a little. Good luck on all your advertures with your ne w toy...


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
< BR>-- MElrod3732@aol.com wrote:
The first flight of N727EP, a 701 on amphib floats & a Rotax 91 2S, occurred 2 days ago at Linden-Prices airport ( 10 miles south of Fli nt, MI ).  The plane performed & handled great, however I did r un out of "UP" elevator trim.  After an hour flight,  I r eturned for an uneventful landing. 
I adjusted the elevator trim tab twice to the point where it is alm ost 90 degrees to the elevator at full travel and I still run out of "UP " trim during slower speeds.  I am wondering whether an adjustment to the horizontal stab might help? 
Thanks again to everyone that has answered my question & offere d building advice during the last 2 1/2 years.  
 
Happy building,   Mike Elrod


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________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety From: "Garrou, Douglas" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" Dear Lord no!!!! If you even allow Scotchbrite to touch your aircraft, it will immediately burst into flame!!! :) Doug "Do Not Archive" Garrou -----Original Message----- Time: 05:45:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" [snip] Surface prep is with ScotchBrite 7447B then .... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:21 AM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety John, I think you are the real expert on the subject. Everything you said is totally true from my experience. The guys in the house/commercial painting industry call it lacquer poisoning. I have known people that have nearly died from exposure to regular cabinet lacquer. After that they cannot even be near the fumes. I have employees that seem to think their respirator is a necklace. I used to think it was no big deal when I was younger. The protection is available. If you don't use it, you can die. I was really lucky. If I had the same exposure to Isocyanides that I did to clear lacquer I would be dead. I think I'll go lurk some more now. Dave in Salem 801 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Bolding To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 5:20 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety I said I was gonna go back to lurking for a year or two after my long post on how people kill themselves in booths of bad design but somehow this thing on breathing air keeps popping up. If you read the MSDS sheet on epoxies and polyurethanes you will discover that MOST have an ingredient called isocynate ,polyiso, polyisocynate or something close. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO SCREW WITH. Several facts on the stuff: 1. Different people get "sensitized" to it at different levels of exposure, both time and density. Some are very high, some are very low. 2. Serious breathing problems arise when you cross the line. Where's the line? See #1. 3. Once you are sensitized there is no going back, you are for life. Kinda like AIDS. 4. Once sensitized, symptoms reoccur upon exposure to as little as 6% (I THINK I remember that number correctly, it was VERY low in any case) to what got you sensitized in the first place. Remember what I said in an earlier post about nasty stuff that has poor or no warning signs that it's coming thru the mask? THIS IS THE STUFF!! It AIN'T like lacquer thinner !! 3M had a cartridge mask that was approved for the above class of materials, the approval was contingent on you changing the cartridges EVERYDAY. I used to GIVE the mask away so I'd get the cartridge business. Don't know if they still sell it or not, imagine the corporate lawyers went into rigor on that one. I got sensitized to this stuff when I worked for DeVilbiss Co. a long time ago (maybe 1970), was down in the hold of a shrimp boat in Brownsville TX demonstrating spraying urethane foam (it had isocynate). Was a newbie in the business and thought I was cool wearing my new orange DeV mask while everyone else wore proper stuff. It took about a month to come thru the aftermath. Admittedly the concentration was high, refer to #1. I had buddies in the industry that had problems in low concentration wearing full blown fresh air equipment. 35 yrs later I can be in the front office of a body shop where someone is spraying Imron on a fender on sawhorses outside the booth and I'll come down with coughing and difficulty breathing. I'm not dreaming this up folks. If you have a problem with this stuff I'm gonna tell your wives I told you so and they will beat the crap out of you while you are coughing and wheezing on the couch. LOW&SLOW John Bolding Oh yeah, I ran into this neat article on corrosion control, this guy knows his stuff. http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/faysurface.htm ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:27 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety Tracy, I won't comment on your mental status only to say that the mask filter you are using is probably not enough for safe painting two part epoxy. When I painted my plane I built a fresh air respirator system for less than $ 50. that worked well and the photos are posted somewhere in the archives. Do as you wish, but I recommend you get something better than char coal to save your lungs. Best regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:50 AM PST US From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_Gestur?= Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_Gestur?= Hello Mike, Congratulation on your first flight. Not much can top this feeling. "however I did run out of "UP" elevator trim". Regarding the elevator trim. When you did the Weight and Balance, is the weight balance forward in the moment area? If so, where is the battery located? If it is not in the tail, I would start by moving it there and keep the trim tab level with the elevator, and not do anything with the horiz.stab. Better to distribute the weight you have first. Just my 2 cents(kronur) Johann G Iceland. * * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:16 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety Hi Bill, I am not familiar with the type of breathing equipment you talk about. However, it seems to me that the air source is crucial for such a system. If your paint poisons happen to flow in the direction of your "Fresh" air source, then the lack of carbon filters might mean you are still getting exposure to the toxic substances. I still think the best advice anyone can get when dealing with toxic chemicals is to read the manufacturer's MSDS and follow the advice given there. Best regards, Paul XL fuselage At 07:16 AM 8/18/2006, you wrote: >Tracy, I won't comment on your mental status only to say that the >mask filter you are using is probably not enough for safe painting >two part epoxy. When I painted my plane I built a fresh air >respirator system for less than $ 50. that worked well and the >photos are posted somewhere in the archives. Do as you wish, but I >recommend you get something better than char coal to save your >lungs. Best regards, Bill of Georgia --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:07 AM PST US From: "Dan Hill" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety Hi: I am a fairly new lurker here and I see this same conversation coming up periodically on several aircraft lists so I thought I would add my 2 cents worth.I began painting in the mid to late 70s for a comercial trucking fleet where my uncle was the head paint and body man. It was just anout that time when they began converting from using acrylic enamel to polyurethane in our shop, and it was just becoming popular. Imron had been out for a while but we were starting to use Durethane which is a Ditzler product. We started with our cartridge masks and the paint manufacturers were RECOMENDING an air fed mask which consisted of basically a standard mask with a hose connected to it which led to a standard cartridge filter that the shop air was run thru to give you a positive pressure mask. My uncle used one of these for a few years bedore he retired. I continued with a standard mask for probably 15 or so years. by then I had my own shop, still painting comercial trucks, and still painting mainly Durethane and by then the paint reps were saying that I needed to be using an airfed respirator. I finally bought there top of the line system (oilless compressor, hoses, and mouth/nose mask) and began using it. Great system, but before I had it paid for they were telling me that I needed to be using a full hood as the isocynates would absorb thru the soft tissue (your eyes). Before I even purchased a hood they were telling me that that wasn't good enough, and that I needed to be using a full suit. It was about that time that the realization hit me that no matter what I did, if I continued to paint I was going to die from the effects.I feel that I was fortunate and at least til now I am not completely brain dead and am continuing with life but on the other hand each individual has to perform there own risk analysis decisions and decide what is acceptable for them.just be informed. Isocyinates are nasty, there is no disputing that.If you spray them your body will tell you that you have been around them, no matter how well you protect yourself. There are several new waterbased paints out which are an option. I haven't used them much and have not been impressed with the results.As an aside, I remember watching my uncle on a regular basis take a rag soaked with lacquer thinner and use it to wipe the paint out of his eyebrows after painting. Although now rather frail, he is still out and about and in his 90s. I still paint my own projects, Still paint with durethane, and it lasts and lasts for a very long time. Off my soapbox now. Dan Hill ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Ruddiman To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:57 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety John, I think you are the real expert on the subject. Everything you said is totally true from my experience. The guys in the house/commercial painting industry call it lacquer poisoning. I have known people that have nearly died from exposure to regular cabinet lacquer. After that they cannot even be near the fumes. I have employees that seem to think their respirator is a necklace. I used to think it was no big deal when I was younger. The protection is available. If you don't use it, you can die. I was really lucky. If I had the same exposure to Isocyanides that I did to clear lacquer I would be dead. I think I'll go lurk some more now. Dave in Salem 801 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Bolding To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 5:20 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety I said I was gonna go back to lurking for a year or two after my long post on how people kill themselves in booths of bad design but somehow this thing on breathing air keeps popping up. If you read the MSDS sheet on epoxies and polyurethanes you will discover that MOST have an ingredient called isocynate ,polyiso, polyisocynate or something close. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO SCREW WITH. Several facts on the stuff: 1. Different people get "sensitized" to it at different levels of exposure, both time and density. Some are very high, some are very low. 2. Serious breathing problems arise when you cross the line. Where's the line? See #1. 3. Once you are sensitized there is no going back, you are for life. Kinda like AIDS. 4. Once sensitized, symptoms reoccur upon exposure to as little as 6% (I THINK I remember that number correctly, it was VERY low in any case) to what got you sensitized in the first place. Remember what I said in an earlier post about nasty stuff that has poor or no warning signs that it's coming thru the mask? THIS IS THE STUFF!! It AIN'T like lacquer thinner !! 3M had a cartridge mask that was approved for the above class of materials, the approval was contingent on you changing the cartridges EVERYDAY. I used to GIVE the mask away so I'd get the cartridge business. Don't know if they still sell it or not, imagine the corporate lawyers went into rigor on that one. I got sensitized to this stuff when I worked for DeVilbiss Co. a long time ago (maybe 1970), was down in the hold of a shrimp boat in Brownsville TX demonstrating spraying urethane foam (it had isocynate). Was a newbie in the business and thought I was cool wearing my new orange DeV mask while everyone else wore proper stuff. It took about a month to come thru the aftermath. Admittedly the concentration was high, refer to #1. I had buddies in the industry that had problems in low concentration wearing full blown fresh air equipment. 35 yrs later I can be in the front office of a body shop where someone is spraying Imron on a fender on sawhorses outside the booth and I'll come down with coughing and difficulty breathing. I'm not dreaming this up folks. If you have a problem with this stuff I'm gonna tell your wives I told you so and they will beat the crap out of you while you are coughing and wheezing on the couch. LOW&SLOW John Bolding Oh yeah, I ran into this neat article on corrosion control, this guy knows his stuff. http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/faysurface.htm ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:39 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight Mike, The trailing edge on the elevator of my 701 was bent up as per the plans. This caused a nose down in cruise. After bending the trailing edge to be even with the top elevator skin and adding a larger trim surface, I can trim OK. ZAC had to bend the trailing edge of their 701 elevator down also. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: MElrod3732@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:18 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight The first flight of N727EP, a 701 on amphib floats & a Rotax 912S, occurred 2 days ago at Linden-Prices airport ( 10 miles south of Flint, MI ). The plane performed & handled great, however I did run out of "UP" elevator trim. After an hour flight, I returned for an uneventful landing. I adjusted the elevator trim tab twice to the point where it is almost 90 degrees to the elevator at full travel and I still run out of "UP" trim during slower speeds. I am wondering whether an adjustment to the horizontal stab might help? Thanks again to everyone that has answered my question & offered building advice during the last 2 1/2 years. Happy building, Mike Elrod ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:07 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE : Re: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Well done, Mike!!! If it's not a W&B issue, do a search on the archives: I remember somebody improved a 701 elevator authority with vortex generators... Happy flying! Carlos CH601-HD, plans Monteral, Canada do not archive > > -- MElrod3732@aol.com wrote: > The first flight of N727EP, a 701 on amphib floats & a Rotax 912S, occurred 2 days ago at > Linden-Prices airport ( 10 miles south of Flint, MI ). The plane performed & handled great, > however I did run out of "UP" elevator trim. After an hour flight, I returned for an > uneventful landing. I adjusted the elevator trim tab twice to the point where it is almost 90 > degrees to the elevator at full travel and I still run out of "UP" trim during slower speeds. > I am wondering whether an adjustment to the horizontal stab might help? Thanks again to > everyone that has answered my question & offered building advice during the last 2 1/2 years. p4.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed/chunked Fri Aug 18 17:23:38 GMT 2006 __________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:07 PM PST US From: "DICK WILBERS" Subject: Zenith-List: FIRST FLIGHT OF N822W ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:31 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight Mike, I also bent my trailing edge of the elevator. Roger from the ZAC factory told me about it, he said that it was originally bent up because the 701 was originally designed for the Rotax 583 engine and that would help keep the nose down. I found that before bending it, my trim tab had to be 1/2 way down from neutral to fly level. Now it stays in the middle and flys level. I still use just about full trim when landing and it seems to work out OK. I used a 2x4 with a slot cut in it to straighten out the aft end of the elevator, it did not hurt the paint at all. I would think that the factory would make the trailing edge straight as I don't think too many people use the 583. Congratulations on your first flight. Bob Spudis N701ZX CH-701/912ULS no floats In a message dated 8/18/2006 2:30:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cffd@pgrb.com writes: Mike, The trailing edge on the elevator of my 701 was bent up as per the plans. This caused a nose down in cruise. After bending the trailing edge to be even with the top elevator skin and adding a larger trim surface, I can trim OK. ZAC had to bend the trailing edge of their 701 elevator down also. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: _MElrod3732@aol.com_ (mailto:MElrod3732@aol.com) Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:18 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 701 First Flight The first flight of N727EP, a 701 on amphib floats & a Rotax 912S, occurred 2 days ago at Linden-Prices airport ( 10 miles south of Flint, MI ). The plane performed & handled great, however I did run out of "UP" elevator trim. After an hour flight, I returned for an uneventful landing. I adjusted the elevator trim tab twice to the point where it is almost 90 degrees to the elevator at full travel and I still run out of "UP" trim during slower speeds. I am wondering whether an adjustment to the horizontal stab might help? Thanks again to everyone that has answered my question & offered building advice during the last 2 1/2 years.