Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:06 AM - Flap Control Bearing (Eddie Seve)
2. 04:20 AM - Re: 601 canopy?? (Southern Reflections)
3. 05:24 AM - Re: Firewall Sealant (Geoff Heap)
4. 05:39 AM - RE : Re: Firewall Sealant (steveadams)
5. 06:03 AM - RE : Re: RE : Re: Polishing (Carlos Sa)
6. 06:40 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 (Brett Hanley)
7. 07:09 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 (Robert Schoenberger)
8. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 (Jim Hoak)
9. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 ()
10. 07:58 AM - 701 battery located (Zed Smith)
11. 08:21 AM - Wing handler for paint (LarryMcFarland)
12. 08:34 AM - Re: RE : Re: Polishing (Tom and Bren Henderson)
13. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: Firewall Sealant (Dirk Slabbert)
14. 10:21 AM - Re: 701 battery located (Dirk Slabbert)
15. 10:30 AM - 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE (Robin Bellach)
16. 11:30 AM - Getting out of an overturned XL (2thesky)
17. 11:53 AM - Re: Getting out of an overturned XL (Craig Payne)
18. 12:12 PM - Clecoes (Jaybannist@cs.com)
19. 12:23 PM - Re: Getting out of an overturned XL (Tom and Bren Henderson)
20. 12:23 PM - Re: Clecoes (Tom and Bren Henderson)
21. 12:36 PM - Re: Clecoes (George Swinford)
22. 01:13 PM - Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety (crvsecretary@aol.com)
23. 01:36 PM - Re: Clecoes (Jim Hoak)
24. 01:40 PM - Re: Getting out of an overturned XL ()
25. 01:46 PM - Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative (Doug Eatman)
26. 01:55 PM - Re: Clecoes (Jaybannist@cs.com)
27. 02:01 PM - Re: Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative (Tom and Bren Henderson)
28. 02:15 PM - Re: Getting out of an overturned XL (Bryan Martin)
29. 02:17 PM - Re: Clecoes (Robert L. Stone)
30. 02:47 PM - Re: Clecoes (Jaybannist@cs.com)
31. 03:53 PM - Re: Wing handler for paint (Jean-Paul Roy)
32. 03:58 PM - Re: 601 XL Rotax cowling needed (dfmoeller)
33. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Rotax cowling needed (Robert L. Stone)
34. 05:49 PM - Re: 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE (Noel Loveys)
35. 07:16 PM - Re: Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative (Craig Payne)
36. 07:33 PM - Re: 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE (Robin Bellach)
37. 08:03 PM - Re: Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Flap Control Bearing |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie Seve" <eddie.seve@clarity.com>
Hi Listers,
I have just drilled/filed the 1 inch holes in the flap control bearings 6B19-5.
Based on the drawings, I marked and drilled the 1 inch holes in the centre of
the bearing on the face that measures 50mm x 55mm.
When I positioned the bearing on the flap torque tube, the angle of the torque
tube from the fuselage side to the bearing is not square to the rear of 6B5-2
(rear wing spar channel), this also means that I cannot connect the torque tubes
together, are these holes meant to be drilled closer to the base of the bearing
?
The holes in the side skin of the fuselage where marked using a piece of spare
hinge with the wing jig installed, so I am pretty sure that I have the position
of the holes in the fuselage sides for the torque tube is correct.
Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated.
Best Regards,
Eddie Seve
http://www.mykitlog.com/eddieseve
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 601 canopy?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Southern Reflections" <purplemoon99@bellsouth.net>
Hi Leo I,ve got three hr. in afactory built 601 (eastman ga.) lots of air
leaks and water leaks in the air.tied down with the canopy locked down .
puddles in the seats 1" deep,but agreat plane to fly.....Joe 601XL N101HD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Gates" <leogates@allvantage.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 canopy??
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates <leogates@allvantage.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> I have a CH601HDS - side opening canopy. Comments inserted:
> Leo Gates
> N601Z
> allpro2@bellsouth.net wrote:
>> I am not a builder, just investigating everything....Those of you that
>> have finished the 601, what about
>> A) wind noise from the canoply not sealing completly
> NO wind noise from canopy not sealing properly. Some wind noise from air
> stream around fuselage. My Magnum Ivoprop is very quiet.
>> B) water leakage around the canopy, both in flight and when tied down
>> out side.
> I have flown through a VERY heavy rain storm. Absolutely no canopy leaks.
> Ground leaks I don't know, always hangared.
>> C) the sun? Do you find that heat is a problem with all of that
>> sunlight streaming in? Bet you don't forget your sunglasses
> For heat, climb to cooler OAT. Sunglasses and a ball cap are a must.
>> Bill in central Florida
>> *
>>
>> *
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Sealant |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
Bob.
I can't help you with your question yet. I have bought some sealant from assco
but I havn't tried it yet. You can help me though. I wanted to use the Yamaha
boots on my 701 but after getting some dimensions here on the list I decided that
they would not fit between the floor and the horizontal "z" stiffener just
above the steering slots. Did you modify the position of the stiffener or what?
The dimensions I was given seemed to be about 1/2" to 3/4" to tall to fit in
there. Your feedback would be most helpful. I fabricated a thin rubber barrier
to do the job but it's not as good a job as the boots would do. Please respond.......Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56939#56939
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RE : Re: Firewall Sealant |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
It is a similar 2 part sealing compound. It used to be called Proseal 1900, now it is Chem Seal 1900. I got it from Vans, but I'm sure it's available elsewhere. They call it "firewall sealant" ( http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1156422410-66-762&browse=misc&product=cs1900 ). It's not cheap, and you have to be ready to seal everything up before you mix it because it doesn't keep. But in my opinion it is a better sealant/fire blocker to use on the firewall than RTV.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56945#56945
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Not like the protective vinil you see covering display of new electronic devices.
Just plain masking tape.
BTW, the material I am using is thick vapour barrier left over from a bathroom
renovation. The
smallest quantity sold (at the local hardware store) is enough to cover a city
block!
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
--- J2j3h4@aol.com a crit :
>
> How do you attach the plastic to the sheet?
>
> Jim Hasper
>
p4.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed/chunked Thu Aug 24 12:23:43 GMT 2006
__________________________________________________________
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 |
The ZAC demonstrator and all factory built examples of a 701 have the battery in
the tail. I am going to mount my battery last. Position will be determined
by weight and ballance.
Brett
da not archive
ZAC shows the 701 battery installed on passenger side behind seat,
forward of the
bottom access hatch.
Some comments have been made in recent months indicating that some
builders have
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Schoenberger <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
If the sentence below is true, how about some more details about how to
mount and secure the battery. Also what about access? Another panel in
the rear just like the one under the baggage compartment? I'm working
on the rear fuselage now and want to plan ahead. Thanks. Robert
Schoenberger 701 Do not archive
Brett Hanley wrote:
> The ZAC demonstrator and all factory built examples of a 701 have the
> battery in the tail. I am going to mount my battery last. Position
> will be determined by weight and ballance.
>
> Brett
> da not archive
>
> ZAC shows the 701 battery installed on passenger side behind seat,
> forward of the
> bottom access hatch.
>
> Some comments have been made in recent months indicating that some
> builders have
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42974/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 |
Hey Listers,
FWIW. If memory serves me correctly. I asked Roger, at OSH this year,
what the small access hatch in the bottom of the fuselage at the tail
(this was a different hatch than the larger one just aft the landing
gear ) was for on his 701. He stated that the Battery used to be there,
but he moved it forward. I forget where he said he moved it to. I know
he has over a thousand hours on the airframe. I don't remember if he has
gone to a different engine. If so, mayby that is why he moved the
battery.
The only reason I asked Roger about it is because I'm helping a friend
on his 701. I agree that the best method is to weigh the airplane after
it is assembled and determine where to put the battery. Just my
thoughts.
do not archive
Jim Hoak - 601HD - Rotax 912UL - 525 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: Brett Hanley
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 9:39 AM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23
Msgs - 08/22/06
The ZAC demonstrator and all factory built examples of a 701 have the
battery in the tail. I am going to mount my battery last. Position
will be determined by weight and ballance.
Brett
da not archive
ZAC shows the 701 battery installed on passenger side behind seat,
forward of the
bottom access hatch.
Some comments have been made in recent months indicating that some
builders have
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 08/22/06 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
I'm building a 601XL but the situation you are confronting is the same for us all.
Don't be too concerned about predicting exactly where you might need another
access port. Anytime before the plane is painted it will not be a big deal
to cut out a suitable access port and fabricate a hatch cover to fit inside of
it.
I have put in access ports where I know for a certainty that I will eventually
need them. Anything else will be dealt with as the need arises.
Ed moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / 2nd wing
---- Robert Schoenberger <hrs1@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Schoenberger <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
> If the sentence below is true, how about some more details about how to
> mount and secure the battery. Also what about access? Another panel in
> the rear just like the one under the baggage compartment? I'm working
> on the rear fuselage now and want to plan ahead. Thanks. Robert
Message 10
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| Subject: | 701 battery located |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Robert,
The ZAC builders pages, 701 photo assembly giude, "firewall forward", section E,
page 9 of 11, shows the battery mounted in what looks like the factory demo
airplane.
This doesn't resemble the "tail" very much, although it is in the "rear fuselage"
portion (at least that's what they call it when it isn't fastened to the "front
fuselage").
Maybe we have a thread for the remainder of the week.
Best regards,
Zed/701/912/90+%/etc/do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Wing handler for paint |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Hi Guys,
I've been painting for a while and someone asked about a means of handling
the wings so they can be painted. There were several good responses, but I
needed to make something so I could wash, etch, prime and paint as well.
I put together a jig that allows the wings to be handled from a rack and
placed
in the horizontal either side to get these things done. Took about a
day to
sort it out, but I'm pleased with the result. Perhaps the pictures below
will
offer enough information to get you through the awkward handling as well.
I think it would work with an XL wing just as easily.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/wg-remove-to-jig.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/wg-rotate-attach.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/wg-rotated-jig.gif
Have a nice day,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Message 12
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How much $ a square foot? Wow, not to mention the work. I know they look
great polished, but I don't know if I have that much time! lol
Aircraft spruce doesn't carry it, but most aluminum suppliers carry pre-polished
6061-T6 already covered in vinyl sheet. As long as your polishing in the
flat, you might give this a shot. It's about $2 more per square foot.
J2j3h4@aol.com wrote: How do you attach the plastic to the sheet?
Jim Hasper
In a message dated 8/23/2006 11:29:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, carlosfsa@yahoo.com
writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Very flat, not holes.
I have now covered it with plastic, and it will remain like that during all
the drilling,
fitting, deburring, priming, assembling and disassembling.
Same process I used for the tail feathers.
I read a posting a while back (I believe by George Pineo) that polishing it
*after* drilling
makes a fine mess.
Carlos
--- Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net> a crit :
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
>
> Hey Carlos, Looks real shiny. Is it ready to rivet or just a flat sheet
without holes?
>
> --------
> Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
> Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
p5.vert.ukl.yahoo.com uncompressed/chunked Thu Aug 24 03:23:39 GMT 2006
__________________________________________________________
Lche-vitrine ou lche-cran he es Day --> - NEW MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
bsp; --> nbsp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Sealant |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
Geoff, I'm worried about rubber burning in the cockpit, I did boots in
silicone impregnated fibre glass mat, custom made to the dimensions.
Same on the rest of the firewall inside, will send a pic.
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 2:23 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Firewall Sealant
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Geoff Heap" <stol10@comcast.net>
>
> Bob.
> I can't help you with your question yet. I have bought some sealant from
> assco but I havn't tried it yet. You can help me though. I wanted to use
> the Yamaha boots on my 701 but after getting some dimensions here on the
> list I decided that they would not fit between the floor and the
> horizontal "z" stiffener just above the steering slots. Did you modify the
> position of the stiffener or what? The dimensions I was given seemed to be
> about 1/2" to 3/4" to tall to fit in there. Your feedback would be most
> helpful. I fabricated a thin rubber barrier to do the job but it's not as
> good a job as the boots would do. Please respond.......Geoff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=56939#56939
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 701 battery located |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
Zed, least we forget the baggage compartment behind the CG!
I am thinking to do the final W&B with all my camping gear in the back, this
will stay there permanent.
Perhaps this way I can put the battery in the engine compartment?
Dirk
701 Kit, 912
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zed Smith" <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 battery located
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
>
> Robert,
>
> The ZAC builders pages, 701 photo assembly giude, "firewall forward",
> section E, page 9 of 11, shows the battery mounted in what looks like the
> factory demo airplane.
>
> This doesn't resemble the "tail" very much, although it is in the "rear
> fuselage" portion (at least that's what they call it when it isn't
> fastened to the "front fuselage").
>
> Maybe we have a thread for the remainder of the week.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Zed/701/912/90+%/etc/do not archive
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE |
The 3/4" axle that ZAC supplies seems to be about an extra inch too long
(1/2" of thread beyond the castle nut on each end). Is there some reason
for this that I'm missing, or can all that extra steel be chopped off?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Getting out of an overturned XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "2thesky" <biggerspurs@hotmail.com>
Has anyone ever thought about how you would get out of an XL if you were unlucky
enough to find the airplane upside down on the ground? I was showing my wife
some pictures from the open hangar day and this was the first thing she asked
me. This is most likely because a couple of months ago, my wife and I were
driving home from the grocery store when we witnessed our neighbor flip his Champ
while trying to land at his backyard strip just before a storm hit. The winds
were very stout and varying up to 180 degrees. He said that as he flared,
he all of a sudden got a very strong tailwind that flipped the plane. He wasn't
hurt, fortunately. Interestingly enough, the actual flipping of the plane
wasn't too hard on the plane. What really tore it up was the hail and wind
storm that hit minutes after he had landed. It started almost immediately after
we made it to the airplane from the road. Three other neighbors made it to
him before we made it across the pasture on foot, probably less than two minutes.
The wind flipped the plane back onto it's wheels and then up onto the left
wingtip where it stayed for a second just before cartwheeling back onto the
tail. It came to rest up against the door of his barn, which scared one of his
racehorses that was injured in the process while trying to get away from the
approaching "monster." My wife and I, another man that lived next to the pilot,
and the dazed pilot had to just basically stand there an watch. He has an
extensive repair to do. He told us how dumb he was for just continuing to fly
around his patch doing touch and goes knowing there was a storm coming. He
figured he was already in the pattern and that he could land before it hit.
I guess this is what caused my wife to ask me about what you could do to get
out of an XL if it were flipped over. I hadn't really thought about it. Anyone
ever had to get out? Just curious. Would that affect my decision to build
an XL? No, I don't think so....it's too pretty of an airplane that performs
very good !
for the
money, but I cannot think of how I would get a 700+ pound airplane lifted up enough
to get out of the flip-up canopy.
Nate in OK
--------
Every takeoff is optional, but every landing is mandatory!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=57043#57043
Message 17
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| Subject: | Getting out of an overturned XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
All I have to go on is the picture at:
www.ch601.org/stories.htm
Based on that I think I could get out of the plane if I broke the canopy
into fairly small pieces (with some sort of escape hammer?). Not sure how
fast I could do this if the plane was on fire.
-- Craig
Message 18
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Today, I was placing A4 clecoes and I found that several were loose in the
holes; not clinched. Upon examination, I found that the two "clincher" tangs
would only retract to the end of the center "expander" tang. I began looking at
the box of clecoes I was using and found about 50 in this condition. I tried
lubricating one with household oil and another with graphite with no
improvement. Has anyone else had this problem? Is this a common failure mode
or am I
doing something wrong?
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Getting out of an overturned XL |
Your wife has a valid concern in whether or not you could get out from under
an overturned XL. I've read many posts on the RV list, praising the sliding
canopy vs the front opening for just that reason. Problem is, the sliding canopy
isn't all that much safer according to Van. Think about it, your airplane
is upside down. Where are you going to slide the canopy to? Doors aren't much
better, as most airplanes tend to shrink vertically as you stack them on their
heads. The doors are often times jammed tightly shut.
The bottom line is, carry a hammer or safety extraction device to break the
plexi. It doesn't take much of a whack to break it. Just a few hits and you've
got $500 worth or pretty plastic beads.
As for lifting a 700 lb airplane off of you, you're not actually lifting all
700 lbs. A significant portion of that is in the nose. The tail actually weighs
very little. Taking into consideration the lever advantage you'll gain
in just lifting the tail, it's do-able. You may not need to lift it at all, as
there's a significant space created between the top of the baggage compartment
and the cockpit. It should be enough to slip through. If not rolling the
plane left or right, rather than lifting it, would seem to be the best idea.
2thesky <biggerspurs@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "2thesky"
Has anyone ever thought about how you would get out of an XL if you were unlucky
enough to find the airplane upside down on the ground? I was showing my wife
some pictures from the open hangar day and this was the first thing she asked
me. This is most likely because a couple of months ago, my wife and I were
driving home from the grocery store when we witnessed our neighbor flip his Champ
while trying to land at his backyard strip just before a storm hit. The winds
were very stout and varying up to 180 degrees. He said that as he flared,
he all of a sudden got a very strong tailwind that flipped the plane. He wasn't
hurt, fortunately. Interestingly enough, the actual flipping of the plane
wasn't too hard on the plane. What really tore it up was the hail and wind
storm that hit minutes after he had landed. It started almost immediately after
we made it to the airplane from the road. Three other neighbors made it to
him before we made it across the pasture on foot,
p!
robably less than two minutes. The wind flipped the plane back onto it's wheels
and then up onto the left wingtip where it stayed for a second just before
cartwheeling back onto the tail. It came to rest up against the door of his barn,
which scared one of his racehorses that was injured in the process while
trying to get away from the approaching "monster." My wife and I, another man
that lived next to the pilot, and the dazed pilot had to just basically stand
there an watch. He has an extensive repair to do. He told us how dumb he was
for just continuing to fly around his patch doing touch and goes knowing there
was a storm coming. He figured he was already in the pattern and that he could
land before it hit. I guess this is what caused my wife to ask me about
what you could do to get out of an XL if it were flipped over. I hadn't really
thought about it. Anyone ever had to get out? Just curious. Would that affect
my decision to build an XL? No, I don't
think!
so....it's too pretty of an airplane that performs very good !
for the
money, but I cannot think of how I would get a 700+ pound airplane lifted up enough
to get out of the flip-up canopy.
Nate in OK
--------
Every takeoff is optional, but every landing is mandatory!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=57043#57043
Message 20
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It must be fairly common. I had maybe 10 of 150 with the same problem. At
30 cents each, it wasn't worth my time fixing them and they were tossed.
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Today, I was placing A4 clecoes and I found that several
were loose in the holes; not clinched. Upon examination, I found that the
two "clincher" tangs would only retract to the end of the center "expander" tang.
I began looking at the box of clecoes I was using and found about 50 in this
condition. I tried lubricating one with household oil and another with graphite
with no improvement. Has anyone else had this problem? Is this a common
failure mode or am I doing something wrong?
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Message 21
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Sometimes a shot of WD-40 fixes this problem. Worth a try before
pitching the cleco, anyway.
George
do not archive----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 12:11 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Clecoes
Today, I was placing A4 clecoes and I found that several were loose in
the holes; not clinched. Upon examination, I found that the two
"clincher" tangs would only retract to the end of the center "expander"
tang. I began looking at the box of clecoes I was using and found about
50 in this condition. I tried lubricating one with household oil and
another with graphite with no improvement. Has anyone else had this
problem? Is this a common failure mode or am I doing something wrong?
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
8/23/2006
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety |
Hello Listers:
I wanted to thank everyone who responded both on and off list to my original question.
I'm glad I raised the question in that a lot of useful information was
spread to all the readers of this list and hopefully someone will have thier
health protected as mine will be.
Taking everything written into consideration, I first downloaded the MSDS sheets
and read them thoroughly. Yes, this stuff is nasty, and the manufacturer recommends
a high-quality respirator. So, I called thier Tech Support line and
got a very helpful tech who understood my situation and he recommended a lot of
fresh air exchange and to try BRUSHING the parts...appearance is not an issue
so I'll try it ! The adhesion and drying qualities of this epoxy primer has
me looking to the future.
I'll report on the results.
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
N458XL (reserved)
wings
-----Original Message-----
From: hillsgun@nwinfo.net
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety
Hi: I am a fairly new lurker here and I see this same conversation coming up periodically
on several aircraft lists so I thought I would add my 2 cents worth.I
began painting in the mid to late 70s for a comercial trucking fleet where
my uncle was the head paint and body man. It was just anout that time when they
began converting from using acrylic enamel to polyurethane in our shop, and
it was just becoming popular. Imron had been out for a while but we were starting
to use Durethane which is a Ditzler product. We started with our cartridge
masks and the paint manufacturers were RECOMENDING an air fed mask which consisted
of basically a standard mask with a hose connected to it which led to a
standard cartridge filter that the shop air was run thru to give you a positive
pressure mask. My uncle used one of these for a few years bedore he retired.
I continued with a standard mask for probably 15 or so years. by then I had my
own shop, still painting comercial trucks, and stil
l painting mainly Durethane and by then the paint reps were saying that I needed
to be using an airfed respirator. I finally bought there top of the line system
(oilless compressor, hoses, and mouth/nose mask) and began using it. Great
system, but before I had it paid for they were telling me that I needed to
be using a full hood as the isocynates would absorb thru the soft tissue (your
eyes). Before I even purchased a hood they were telling me that that wasn't good
enough, and that I needed to be using a full suit. It was about that time
that the realization hit me that no matter what I did, if I continued to paint
I was going to die from the effects.I feel that I was fortunate and at least
til now I am not completely brain dead and am continuing with life but on the
other hand each individual has to perform there own risk analysis decisions and
decide what is acceptable for them.just be informed. Isocyinates are nasty,
there is no disputing that.If you spray them your bod
y will tell you that you have been around them, no matter how well you protect
yourself. There are several new waterbased paints out which are an option. I
haven't used them much and have not been impressed with the results.As an aside,
I remember watching my uncle on a regular basis take a rag soaked with lacquer
thinner and use it to wipe the paint out of his eyebrows after painting. Although
now rather frail, he is still out and about and in his 90s. I still paint
my own projects, Still paint with durethane, and it lasts and lasts for a
very long time. Off my soapbox now. Dan Hill
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety
John,
I think you are the real expert on the subject. Everything you said is totally
true from my experience. The guys in the house/commercial painting industry call
it lacquer poisoning. I have known people that have nearly died from exposure
to regular cabinet lacquer. After that they cannot even be near the fumes.
I have employees that seem to think their respirator is a necklace. I used to
think it was no big deal when I was younger. The protection is available. If you
don't use it, you can die. I was really lucky. If I had the same exposure to
Isocyanides that I did to clear lacquer I would be dead. I think I'll go lurk
some more now.
Dave in Salem
801
----- Original Message -----
From: John Bolding
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Epoxy Primer and Personal Safety
I said I was gonna go back to lurking for a year or two after my long post on how
people kill themselves in booths of bad design but somehow this thing on breathing
air keeps popping up.
If you read the MSDS sheet on epoxies and polyurethanes you will discover that
MOST have an ingredient called isocynate ,polyiso, polyisocynate or something
close.
THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO SCREW WITH.
Several facts on the stuff:
1. Different people get "sensitized" to it at different levels of exposure, both
time and density. Some are very high, some are very low.
2. Serious breathing problems arise when you cross the line. Where's the line?
See #1.
3. Once you are sensitized there is no going back, you are for life. Kinda like
AIDS.
4. Once sensitized, symptoms reoccur upon exposure to as little as 6% (I THINK
I
remember that number correctly, it was VERY low in any case) to what got you sensitized
in the first place.
Remember what I said in an earlier post about nasty stuff that has poor or no warning
signs that it's coming thru the mask? THIS IS THE STUFF!! It AIN'T
like lacquer thinner !!
3M had a cartridge mask that was approved for the above class of materials, the
approval was contingent on you changing the cartridges EVERYDAY. I used to GIVE
the mask away so I'd get the cartridge business. Don't know if they still sell
it or not, imagine the corporate lawyers went into rigor on that one.
I got sensitized to this stuff when I worked for DeVilbiss Co. a long time ago
(maybe 1970), was down in the hold of a shrimp boat in Brownsville TX demonstrating
spraying urethane foam (it had isocynate). Was a newbie in the business
and thought I was cool wearing my new orange DeV mask while everyone else wore
proper stuff. It took about a month to come thru the aftermath. Admittedly the
concentration was high, refer to #1.
I had buddies in the industry that had problems in low concentration wearing full
blown fresh air equipment.
35 yrs later I can be in the front office of a body shop where someone is spraying
Imron on a fender on sawhorses outside the booth and I'll come down with
coughing and difficulty breathing. I'm not dreaming this up folks.
If you have a problem with this stuff I'm gonna tell your wives I told you so
and they will beat the crap out of you while you are coughing and wheezing on
the couch.
LOW&SLOW John Bolding
Oh yeah, I ran into this neat article on corrosion control, this guy knows his
stuff.
http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/faysurface.htm
________________________________________________________________________
Message 23
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Jay,
A couple of quick questions about the clecoes. 1) Were they new? 2) If
not new, were they in thick metal such as spars for some period of time?
If they are new then they are probably just defective. If they were in
thick metal for a period of time, the internal springs have stretched. I
have a can of these stretched clecoes that I can only use in thick metal
installations.
I do occasionally put my clecoes in a bucket or can of oil from time to
time, soaking them awhile and then putting them on a cloth for a day or
so to drain. Messy but effective. I've been using some of the same
clecoes for about fourty years. I do throw some away when they no longer
do the job. I find some of the newer types don't work as well as the old
timers did when they were YOUNG. The same thing applys to me too!
do not archive
Jim Hoak 601HD - Rotax 912UL - 525hours
----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Zenith-List: Clecoes
Today, I was placing A4 clecoes and I found that several were loose in
the holes; not clinched. Upon examination, I found that the two
"clincher" tangs would only retract to the end of the center "expander"
tang. I began looking at the box of clecoes I was using and found about
50 in this condition. I tried lubricating one with household oil and
another with graphite with no improvement. Has anyone else had this
problem? Is this a common failure mode or am I doing something wrong?
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage
Message 24
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| Subject: | Getting out of an overturned XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
That's why I will always bring my pet armadillo along in the plane. I'll break
the canopy, and he's great at digging out.... all I have to do is follow him.
Is that teamwork or what? I haven't tested whether or not he digs any faster when
there's fire but I'd have to think it would motivate him.
Ed Moody II
---- Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> All I have to go on is the picture at:
>
> www.ch601.org/stories.htm
>
> Based on that I think I could get out of the plane if I broke the canopy
> into fairly small pieces (with some sort of escape hammer?). Not sure how
> fast I could do this if the plane was on fire.
>
> -- Craig
Message 25
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| Subject: | Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug Eatman" <pilotdna@hotmail.com>
For you scroungers and scrap builders, I came across a neat linear actuator
that is almost identical in size and function to the one Scott Laughlin is
using at www.surpluscenter.com . Although the force rating is overkill, it
has built in internal limit switches and a built in position potentiometer,
which can be wired up to a snazzy lighted three-position controller switch
that is also at the surplus center. Best of all, the actuator is only $72
brand new and the controller is $50. The 8 second full retraction time
sounds about right, and 4 pounds isn't unreasonable to me.
The controller is here:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 06082410322769&catname=electric&item=5-1577-C
The actuator is here:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 06082410322769&item=5-1577-4&catname=electric
I ordered one, and my plan is to set up the three controller buttons with an
up, approach, and down position (like a Bonanza uses). Seems better than
holding a toggle switch to extend them and guessing at the position or
watching a RAC indicator.
This is just my idea, nothing is installed or tested, but I though some
might find it interesting.
Doug Eatman
St. Augustine, FL
Flaps & Ailerons, 601XL
learn, build, fly, but do not archive
Message 26
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Jim, I only started (kit) building in December, so I'd have to say the
clecoes were new. I have no idea where I might have used them. I have built tail,
both wings and about half of the fuselage. I'll try the "soak" treatment, but
won't get real upset if I have to throw them out.
Thanks, Jay in Dallas
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative |
I like it. : ) Thanks for the info.
Do Not Archive
Doug Eatman <pilotdna@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Doug
Eatman"
For you scroungers and scrap builders, I came across a neat linear actuator
that is almost identical in size and function to the one Scott Laughlin is
using at www.surpluscenter.com . Although the force rating is overkill, it
has built in internal limit switches and a built in position potentiometer,
which can be wired up to a snazzy lighted three-position controller switch
that is also at the surplus center. Best of all, the actuator is only $72
brand new and the controller is $50. The 8 second full retraction time
sounds about right, and 4 pounds isn't unreasonable to me.
The controller is here:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 06082410322769&catname=electric&item=5-1577-C
The actuator is here:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 06082410322769&item=5-1577-4&catname=electric
I ordered one, and my plan is to set up the three controller buttons with an
up, approach, and down position (like a Bonanza uses). Seems better than
holding a toggle switch to extend them and guessing at the position or
watching a RAC indicator.
This is just my idea, nothing is installed or tested, but I though some
might find it interesting.
Doug Eatman
St. Augustine, FL
Flaps & Ailerons, 601XL
learn, build, fly, but do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Getting out of an overturned XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
I bought a combination hammer/hatchet/nail remover tool form Harbor
Freight that I carry in the cabin. It has a hatchet blade on one
side, a hammer head on the other side and a nail puller claw sticking
out the end. I use the hammer side for driving tie down stakes and
tent stakes, and have used the nail puller claw to dig the dirt out
of tie-down pad-eyes. I figure I can use the hatchet blade to break
the canopy and get my self out. If all else fails, I could probably
punch through the aluminum skin pretty quickly to get out.
Actually, if you flip over the plane, the canopy will probably be
cracked open anyway. Then you just have to kick out the broken pieces
and crawl out.
On Aug 24, 2006, at 2:28 PM, 2thesky wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "2thesky" <biggerspurs@hotmail.com>
Has anyone ever thought about how you would get out of an XL if you
were unlucky enough to find the airplane upside down on the ground?
about what you could do to get out of an XL if it were flipped over.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 29
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Jay,
Why not at least try to return them to the people you bought them
from. 30 Cents is not much money but 150 times that 30 cents is $45.00
and that's too much to just throw away. Also if the people who you
bought them from will not take them back or at least exchange them, be
sure to let all on the list know who they are. Venders who do not treat
their customers fairly in a small market place do not last very long.
Bob Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: Jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Clecoes
Jim, I only started (kit) building in December, so I'd have to say the
clecoes were new. I have no idea where I might have used them. I have
built tail, both wings and about half of the fuselage. I'll try the
"soak" treatment, but won't get real upset if I have to throw them out.
Thanks, Jay in Dallas
Message 30
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Bob, I am going to try the "soak" treatment. If that does no good, I just
might take your advice. And, you are right, I wouldn't just throw away $45 for
no reason. Jay
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Wing handler for paint |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jean-Paul Roy" <jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca>
Thanks very much Larry for posting this. Very helpfull.
do not archive
Jean-Paul Roy
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 11:19 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Wing handler for paint
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Hi Guys,
> I've been painting for a while and someone asked about a means of handling
> the wings so they can be painted. There were several good responses, but
I
> needed to make something so I could wash, etch, prime and paint as well.
> I put together a jig that allows the wings to be handled from a rack and
> placed
> in the horizontal either side to get these things done. Took about a
> day to
> sort it out, but I'm pleased with the result. Perhaps the pictures below
> will
> offer enough information to get you through the awkward handling as well.
> I think it would work with an XL wing just as easily.
>
>
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/wg-remove-to-jig.gif
>
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/wg-rotate-attach.gif
>
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/wg-rotated-jig.gif
>
> Have a nice day,
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Rotax cowling needed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dfmoeller" <dfmoeller@austin.rr.com>
I have had the exact same problem on my 912S/601XL combo and am executing the exact
same fix. Funny the guy at Zenith didn't mention this to me.
I have an early model XL with the side mounted cooler. In the central Texas summer,
it is simply inadequate, even in early morning. I'm reasonably sure it
simply is a matter of insuffienct air flow. I have great oil pressure and absolutely
zero blockage around the oil cooler.
I purchased the Rotax cooler from CPS and the mounting bracket and banjo fittings
from Zenith. I have a mechanic working on fiberglassing the new hole in the
cowling and mounting the unit. I got some dimensions of the opening from Zenith
and the newer style cowling and mounting is described very well in the rev.
1.1 version of the firewall forward instructions which are on the Zenith Builders
Pages.
Now, if this doesn't work, I'm not quite sure what next, but to mount both units.
BTW, where are you located? I would be eager to hear how others have solved this
problem since there seems to be plenty of 601XLs in the south.
Doug Moellering
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=57114#57114
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Rotax cowling needed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
Doug,
Since I am also a resident of Central Texas, (Harker Heights) near Fort
Hood, I would also like to know where you are.
Bob Stone
-DO NOT ARCHIVE
---- Original Message -----
From: "dfmoeller" <dfmoeller@austin.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Rotax cowling needed
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "dfmoeller" <dfmoeller@austin.rr.com>
>
> I have had the exact same problem on my 912S/601XL combo and am executing
> the exact same fix. Funny the guy at Zenith didn't mention this to me.
>
> I have an early model XL with the side mounted cooler. In the central
> Texas summer, it is simply inadequate, even in early morning. I'm
> reasonably sure it simply is a matter of insuffienct air flow. I have
> great oil pressure and absolutely zero blockage around the oil cooler.
>
> I purchased the Rotax cooler from CPS and the mounting bracket and banjo
> fittings from Zenith. I have a mechanic working on fiberglassing the new
> hole in the cowling and mounting the unit. I got some dimensions of the
> opening from Zenith and the newer style cowling and mounting is described
> very well in the rev. 1.1 version of the firewall forward instructions
> which are on the Zenith Builders Pages.
>
> Now, if this doesn't work, I'm not quite sure what next, but to mount both
> units.
>
> BTW, where are you located? I would be eager to hear how others have
> solved this problem since there seems to be plenty of 601XLs in the south.
>
> Doug Moellering
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=57114#57114
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE |
I haven't seen your axle but there is the possibility the nose axle is
intentionally long to give a place for a pull bar.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin
Bellach
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE
The 3/4" axle that ZAC supplies seems to be about an extra inch too long
(1/2" of thread beyond the castle nut on each end). Is there some reason
for
this that I'm missing, or can all that extra steel be chopped off?
Message 35
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| Subject: | Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
A very nice unit at a good price. One key difference between it and the
factory part is that the limit switches are non-adjustable and the travel 4
inches. If you weld up the flap actuator parts as per the Zenith plans a 4
inch travel is too much and will end up bending something. Yes the stops in
the controller are programmable but you had better not move too far while
setting them.
A scratch builder who is welding his own parts could just make the
attachment arm on the flap tube longer so that a 4 inch travel would be just
right. I suppose you could extend the arm on the Zenith part too.
-- Craig
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE |
MessageThanks for the idea, but I'm planning on wheel pants.
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:47 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE
I haven't seen your axle but there is the possibility the nose axle is
intentionally long to give a place for a pull bar.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin
Bellach
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 2:59 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Nose Wheel AXLE
The 3/4" axle that ZAC supplies seems to be about an extra inch too
long (1/2" of thread beyond the castle nut on each end). Is there some
reason for this that I'm missing, or can all that extra steel be chopped
off?
Message 37
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| Subject: | Cheap 601XL flap actuator alternative |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Looks like they also have the part number LACT2P actuator which has a 2 inch
travel but not the LACT3P (3 inch travel). I believe 2 inches of travel is a
better match to the standard Zenith flap tube than 4 inches. The rough
settings shown for the micro switches show in 6-B-19 (dated 04/04) give
about 2 inches of travel (63mm - 12mm = 51 mm or about 2 inches) but this
adjustment is refined for 30 degree travel as specified on 6-S-3.
My wings are not hung so I can't say what my limit switches will be set to.
But 3 inches of travel will move the flap arm from where it hits 6B5-2 to
where a straight line from the actuator attachment points intersects 6B5-2.
-- Craig
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