Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:09 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robin Bellach)
2. 05:40 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robert L. Stone)
3. 06:04 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock? (dbortol)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Zodie Rocket)
6. 07:20 AM - Re: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots (Edward Moody II)
7. 08:17 AM - Flanging Dies (Jaybannist@cs.com)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots (Edward Moody II)
9. 08:41 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II)
10. 08:41 AM - Re: Flanging Dies (Andrew Ackland)
11. 08:51 AM - Re: Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe)
12. 08:53 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II)
13. 09:01 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Bill Naumuk)
14. 09:02 AM - Re: When the rivet hole gets too big (Edward Moody II)
15. 09:04 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II)
16. 09:19 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (kevinbonds)
17. 09:27 AM - Hard woods (Robert L. Stone)
18. 09:30 AM - Re: When the rivet hole gets too big (lwinger)
19. 09:36 AM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (R.P.)
20. 09:41 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Bill Naumuk)
21. 10:30 AM - Swapping wings (R.P.)
22. 11:16 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Paul Mulwitz)
23. 11:35 AM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (Robert L. Stone)
24. 11:59 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Daniel Dempsey)
25. 12:12 PM - Re: Self-Etching primer FYI (John)
26. 01:05 PM - Re: Self-Etching primer FYI (TxDave)
27. 01:22 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (J2j3h4@aol.com)
28. 02:24 PM - Re: Swapping wings (LarryMcFarland)
29. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: When the rivet hole gets too big (Edward Moody II)
30. 03:32 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe)
31. 04:05 PM - Re: Flanging Dies (Randy L. Thwing)
32. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: New GPS in my 601XL (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
33. 04:28 PM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (Randy L. Thwing)
34. 05:19 PM - Re: KABONG DRIVING ME FRIGGEN NUTS !!!! (j. davis)
35. 05:21 PM - Wing swapping (Bill Naumuk)
36. 05:30 PM - White stuff (Bill Naumuk)
37. 06:00 PM - Re: Scotchbrite pad Question. (Noel Loveys)
38. 06:06 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robin Bellach)
39. 06:23 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II)
40. 07:21 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
41. 07:37 PM - performance at cruise (Michael Parsons)
42. 07:47 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robin Bellach)
43. 08:02 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe)
44. 08:17 PM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (Gary Boothe)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
Pine is very soft compared to true hardwoods like oak, walnut, and
hickory, and you shouldn't need the poison of the PT. I can't see using
fragile soft wood like pine or birch unless you are going to whittle it
by hand with a pocket knife. Modern power tools don't care if they are
cutting hard or soft wood, and the hard wood would be more durable.
'Course I'm in the hardwoods country of the Ozarks where these woods are
plentiful. I'll soon be burning a truck load of hardwood scraps to keep
warm, free from a local mill, and most would be ideal chunks to cut dies
from. There is one advantage to plywood - the cross grain would prevent
cracking with the grain. I'd use ply before PT.
----- Original Message -----
From: J2j3h4@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
I'm thinking of using pressure-treated pine. If you have ever worked
with this, you know that it is very hard.
Jim Hasper
In a message dated 9/2/2006 9:12:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz
<p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I agree that Russian plywood is really good. It is not the same
sort
of low-quality junk plywood available at the Harry Home-owner stores
at all. It is usually at least 7 layers of Birch. You get more
layers as you get thicker plywood. It is also called Nordic Birch
plywood - some of it even comes from countries other than Russia.
I can get it at two different wood stores in Portland, OR. I like
using it for all sorts of stuff around the shop including nice wood
boxes. You can probably find it at higher class hardwood outlets
rather than construction lumber companies.
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
Gary,
Beautiful work on the flanging die. Considering the quality of
your wood work I can see only one thing wrong, you should have used hard
wood then your die would last a lot longer. Your die looks like western
fir and if it is, that's a soft wood.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:04 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Ever since Bill Naumuk convinced me that I could scrap build my center
section and fuselage (after kit building the tail and wings), I have
been known to stare at the ceiling in the middle of the night,
visualizing how I could build flanging dies out of wood.
Not to be outdone by Dave's Cheap Sheet Metal Bending Brake, and in an
obvious effort to take the food right out of the mouths of the babies of
machinists, I finally made, and used (successfully), flanging dies out
of plywood!
I hope the attachments are within the abilities of all to download,
and, since this is my first attempt at attaching an image, I am
currently sitting uncomfortably in my asbestos underwear.
Wood is really what I am most comfortable with. Switching from a
Pietenpol to a 601 was a last minute decision after completing the WW
Corvair Conversion. Any of you wood-chucks out there, like me, who wish
a more detailed account can e-mail me directly. (any body skinned their
601 fuselage with plywood?....just kidding.)
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dbortol" <dbortol@gmail.com>
Thanks Gary, I hope it will be useful. I remembered after sending it out that the
plane I saw it on was an HDS, so it has a fixed trailing edge to lock the ailerons
to. On an XL you'd have to raise the flaps (and make sure nobody steps
on them, ouch!).
Dino Bortolin
La Salle, Ontario
XL/Corvair
[quote="gboothe(at)calply.com"]Dino,
Nice sketch. Who needs a picture!?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
[b]From:[/b] owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Dino Bortolin
[b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:02 AM
[b]To:[/b] zenith-list@matronics.com
[b]Subject:[/b] Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?
I saw a very simple control lock on a 601 at Oshkosh. I can't recall the builder's
name, but he was based at Osh. Unfortunately I didn't take a picture of the
lock. I drew up a sketch (attached) that should give you the idea. The dimensions
are approximate; some amount of 'eyeball engineering' is required. I think
he had one on each outboard end of the elevator, and the flaps were retracted
with another between each flap and aileron.
Dino Bortolin
La Salle, Ontario
601/Corvair
[quote][b][/quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59174#59174
Message 4
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| Subject: | Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
Bob,
Of course you are right. This being the "prototype", and the fact that it
worked so well, I'll make the two smaller ones out of oak. A few weeks ago
someone posted that they had used some of that man-made wood decking
material with good results. A person can use whatever they want. Mostly, I
thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the male and female
bevels.
Gary
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Stone
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Gary,
Beautiful work on the flanging die. Considering the quality of your
wood work I can see only one thing wrong, you should have used hard wood
then your die would last a lot longer. Your die looks like western fir and
if it is, that's a soft wood.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe <mailto:gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:04 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Ever since Bill Naumuk convinced me that I could scrap build my center
section and fuselage (after kit building the tail and wings), I have been
known to stare at the ceiling in the middle of the night, visualizing how I
could build flanging dies out of wood.
Not to be outdone by Dave's Cheap Sheet Metal Bending Brake, and in an
obvious effort to take the food right out of the mouths of the babies of
machinists, I finally made, and used (successfully), flanging dies out of
plywood!
I hope the attachments are within the abilities of all to download, and,
since this is my first attempt at attaching an image, I am currently sitting
uncomfortably in my asbestos underwear.
Wood is really what I am most comfortable with. Switching from a Pietenpol
to a 601 was a last minute decision after completing the WW Corvair
Conversion. Any of you wood-chucks out there, like me, who wish a more
detailed account can e-mail me directly. (any body skinned their 601
fuselage with plywood?....just kidding.)
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
Message 5
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Now I understand, and remember the alter Ego of Quick Draw had a name.
Thank-You I was trying to think of a meaning for each letter like
=93ASAP=94
or SNAFU.
I didn=92t relate it to a nick name like cdngoose
cdngoose
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 2:57 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: KABONG ?
I've had the KABONG handle since the early 1960's so I'm not part of any
of these Johnny Come Lately's. I've had the handle before most if not
all of them were born.
I found out the other day that one of my now retired "rookies" was
having a birthday, so having not seen him for more than 20 years I sent
him a birthday card. I signed it only KABONG. It did have a return
address but no name. Mailed it on Tuesday, 6:59am Thursday I got a call
from "Buzz", he knew who sent it & called 411.
The handle is "KABONG" (all caps) not El Kabong of Hanna-Barber cartoon
fame.
Do Not Archive. KABONG HRII N561FS (GBA & GWB)
Have been asked that before, here's a "short" response.
While a Patrol Sgt. on Fontana PD (early 60's) I went to a City
masquerade party in all black western gear, complete with guns. Someone
ask if I were the infamous gunfighter "Quicks Draw McGraw". One of my
patrolman chimed in "Naw, he's El Kabong" (Q.D.McG 's alter ego, Long
Ranger mask, black hat, cape and a guitar). They (my patrolman) used the
shortened "Kabong" to identify me & the name stuck.
My use of the shotgun as a baton was the basis of the comment. El Kabong
"kabongs" bad guys with a guitar. While I was a patrol Sgt on Fontana PD
I broke the wooden stocks of two 12 ga shotguns by using the shotgun
more like a baton. First time a guy took a blindside swing at me while I
was breaking up a bar fight. I stuck the barrel in the flight of his
fist. He struck it so hard he broke his hand and the stock hit him in
the gut area. That broke stock #1. A coupla weeks later there was a ten
on one gang fight at a wedding. The ring leader (who I knew) headed for
the back door. I was able to stick the stock between the persons in the
crowd at his eye level, he ran into it and "clothesline" himself. You
know one second your running full tilt and the next your head makes
contact with an immovable object & your feet & butt are instantly above
you head. So much for wooden stock #2.
I had a loooong talk with my Chief. It ended with my asking about
getting the city to buy one of the LAPD SWAT team riot stocks for
"tests" and mount it on my 12 ga. They had a solid rubber type that is
stock looking but it had kind of a molded in "pistol grip" also. It
bends and rebounds without breaking. The Chief only asked that I not
charge the city for any more stocks. We found out that they only came
with new Ithaca shotguns so the Chief/City bought a new complete one.
Never broke another stock, also learned to used the other end which was
a lot stronger.
No, I never did have to shoot anyone with 00 buck, I think it was
because the perp's believed I really would shoot them and maybe mixed in
with a little of the Kabong legend.
They were right, I would have.
When I started building and posting on the lists with Tom and I used
kabong as a handle. From Bakersfield to OSH I'm remembered not as John
H. "Jack" Starn but rather as "KABONG".
Spent 5 plus years helping in the building of retired USAF Maj. Tom
Gummo's HRII Rocket N561FS. Tom was an F-4 Wild Weasel with a name and
body shape (his words) he was Gummibear.
Most So. Cal RV guys have call sign (handle) and somewhere about 10-11
years ago someone asked if I had a "call sign" and I told the story.
KABONG still sticks. Yes, as a matter of fact I do have videos of all
the cartoons that features "El Kabong" . KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:ding@tbscc.com"lynn dingfelder
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: KABONG ?
John,
From the Zenith list, what does KABONG mean?
Lynn
corry, PA
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Zenith-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
"http://wiki.matronics.com"http://wiki.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
--
8/31/2006
--
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots |
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dominguez
Subject: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots
I've noticed that my sweat is causing white spots in the metal surface
that cannot be removed with lacquer thinner after the sweat have been
left for a while. In some cases these white spots have develop into some
type of white corrosion (filiform) that I have removed with scoth-brite.
Is this common? Should I be concerned?
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
In Southwestern Louisiana it is not just common, it is normal. No need
for concern there..... major need for an airconditioner. I am ordering
mine today.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
sweaty 601XL / fuselage
Do Not Archive
Do Not sweat on the expensive aluminum
Message 7
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You guys recommending a hardwood instead of softwood for flanging dies just
don't understand wood. "Hardwood" designates a wood that is from a decidous
tree. "Softwood" referrs to a wood that come from a coniferous tree. It has
very little to do with the strength of the wood. For instance, Aspen (hardwood)
is very soft and would be easily carved with a pocket knife. Southern
Longleaf Pine (softwood) is exceptionally strong, hard, dense and would be very
difficult to carve with any knife. In fact, the old Conestoga wagon builders
preferred Southern Pine to Oak for their wagon frames. You will find only
softwoods listed in any table of properties of wood for structural uses. (FACTS)
(OPINION) In the case of flanging dies, the strength of the wood has some
bearing, but workability, texture and durability are more important. Personally,
I think that the "artificial" wood products made for outdoor deck construction
would beat any kind of "natural" wood for flanging dies.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots |
Women often fail to appreciate the finer qualities that attach to
nerdiness. Let her run off with a bad boy and see how long that lasts.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like
spots
Just remember that it's your friends that kid you.
A: Because they can. and
B: Because they care.
They wouldn't spend the time or energy ribbing you if they didn't.
KABONG Do Not Archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: kevinbonds
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like
spots
No offense guys, but my wife says, "it's funny that you are such a
nerd, that even your nerd friends make fun of you". Thanks guys.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
DUH!!! At a Russian plywood plant..... wasn't that obvious?
Ed
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
> I also used wooden flanging dies similar to your's.
> The person who made them available to me made them out
> of "Russian plywood". He also made all forming blocs
> using that material. It is a very good plywood, but I
> have no idea where we can find this.
Message 10
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You are right, the softest hardwood is BALSAWOOD! How long would a flanging
die made from that hardwood last?
Andy Ackland in the UK
601HD, tail done, working on wings.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: 03 September 2006 16:16
Subject: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies
"Softwood" referrs to a wood that come from a coniferous tree. It has
very little to do with the strength of the wood
Message 11
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And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up just fine.
Not opinion - FACT.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
(OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products made
for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood for
flanging dies.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
Don't feel bad. At one time or another, all men spend some time thinking
about pressure-treated pine. It's just a phase that you are going
through. In the end, you will come to the realization that if pressure
treated wood requires the use of specially coated screws so that your
fence or deck does not fall apart in a couple of years, then it probably
isn't a good material to use to squeeze aircraft aluminum into shape.
There now, take a deep breath.... feel better?
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: J2j3h4@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
I'm thinking of using pressure-treated pine. If you have ever worked
with this, you know that it is very hard.
Jim Hasper
Message 13
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Mark-
You don't want to know what KABONG means in Bob+Tom parlance. Then
again, maybe you do!
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
45%HDS
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Zodie Rocket
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: KABONG ?
Now I understand, and remember the alter Ego of Quick Draw had a name.
Thank-You I was trying to think of a meaning for each letter like
=93ASAP=94 or SNAFU.
I didn=92t relate it to a nick name like cdngoose
cdngoose
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 2:57 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: KABONG ?
I've had the KABONG handle since the early 1960's so I'm not part of
any of these Johnny Come Lately's. I've had the handle before most if
not all of them were born.
I found out the other day that one of my now retired "rookies" was
having a birthday, so having not seen him for more than 20 years I sent
him a birthday card. I signed it only KABONG. It did have a return
address but no name. Mailed it on Tuesday, 6:59am Thursday I got a call
from "Buzz", he knew who sent it & called 411.
The handle is "KABONG" (all caps) not El Kabong of Hanna-Barber
cartoon fame.
Do Not Archive. KABONG HRII N561FS (GBA & GWB)
Have been asked that before, here's a "short" response.
While a Patrol Sgt. on Fontana PD (early 60's) I went to a City
masquerade party in all black western gear, complete with guns. Someone
ask if I were the infamous gunfighter "Quicks Draw McGraw". One of my
patrolman chimed in "Naw, he's El Kabong" (Q.D.McG 's alter ego, Long
Ranger mask, black hat, cape and a guitar). They (my patrolman) used the
shortened "Kabong" to identify me & the name stuck.
My use of the shotgun as a baton was the basis of the comment. El
Kabong "kabongs" bad guys with a guitar. While I was a patrol Sgt on
Fontana PD I broke the wooden stocks of two 12 ga shotguns by using the
shotgun more like a baton. First time a guy took a blindside swing at me
while I was breaking up a bar fight. I stuck the barrel in the flight of
his fist. He struck it so hard he broke his hand and the stock hit him
in the gut area. That broke stock #1. A coupla weeks later there was a
ten on one gang fight at a wedding. The ring leader (who I knew) headed
for the back door. I was able to stick the stock between the persons in
the crowd at his eye level, he ran into it and "clothesline" himself.
You know one second your running full tilt and the next your head makes
contact with an immovable object & your feet & butt are instantly above
you head. So much for wooden stock #2.
I had a loooong talk with my Chief. It ended with my asking about
getting the city to buy one of the LAPD SWAT team riot stocks for
"tests" and mount it on my 12 ga. They had a solid rubber type that is
stock looking but it had kind of a molded in "pistol grip" also. It
bends and rebounds without breaking. The Chief only asked that I not
charge the city for any more stocks. We found out that they only came
with new Ithaca shotguns so the Chief/City bought a new complete one.
Never broke another stock, also learned to used the other end which was
a lot stronger.
No, I never did have to shoot anyone with 00 buck, I think it was
because the perp's believed I really would shoot them and maybe mixed in
with a little of the Kabong legend.
They were right, I would have.
When I started building and posting on the lists with Tom and I used
kabong as a handle. From Bakersfield to OSH I'm remembered not as John
H. "Jack" Starn but rather as "KABONG".
Spent 5 plus years helping in the building of retired USAF Maj. Tom
Gummo's HRII Rocket N561FS. Tom was an F-4 Wild Weasel with a name and
body shape (his words) he was Gummibear.
Most So. Cal RV guys have call sign (handle) and somewhere about 10-11
years ago someone asked if I had a "call sign" and I told the story.
KABONG still sticks. Yes, as a matter of fact I do have videos of all
the cartoons that features "El Kabong" . KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: lynn dingfelder
To: jhstarn@verizon.net
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: KABONG ?
John,
From the Zenith list, what does KABONG mean?
Lynn
corry, PA
- The Zenith-List Email Forum - --> - NEW
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
--> - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your
generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-->
--
8/31/2006
--
9/1/2006
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: When the rivet hole gets too big |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
Use the same size rivet WITH JB Weld freshly placed in the hole. That way
the final appearance is uniform, the strength is adequate and everyone is
happy. As the JB Weld starts to "gel" (watch your timing carefully) a clean
putty knife damp (not dripping wet) with denatured alcohol will allow you to
smooth any exposed epoxy material. 12 hours later, a little careful 400 grit
sand paper and you're groovin'.
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:29 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: When the rivet hole gets too big
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
>
> When doing side two of my trailing edge rudder skin, one of my last holes
> "walked" on me. It was the end rivet on rear rib #3, and it became oblong
> in a big hurry. Ouch.
>
> Since it is in a non-structural area, I'm looking for a good way to
> recover. BTW, I'm planning to paint the plane, so I'll have opportunity
> down the road to fill and shape if that is required/makes sense.
>
> One lister has already suggested a larger rivet (A5) and JB Weld if there
> is still a void. What would you suggest?
>
> --------
> Larry Winger
> Tustin, CA
> 601XL #6493 from scratch
> Rudder skin clecoed and ready to prime/rivet
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59157#59157
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard.
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Bellach
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Pine is very soft compared to true hardwoods like oak, walnut, and
hickory, and you shouldn't need the poison of the PT. I can't see using
fragile soft wood like pine or birch unless you are going to whittle it
by hand with a pocket knife. Modern power tools don't care if they are
cutting hard or soft wood, and the hard wood would be more durable.
'Course I'm in the hardwoods country of the Ozarks where these woods are
plentiful. I'll soon be burning a truck load of hardwood scraps to keep
warm, free from a local mill, and most would be ideal chunks to cut dies
from. There is one advantage to plywood - the cross grain would prevent
cracking with the grain. I'd use ply before PT.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
I'm looking at the video of Bigfoot carrying the scothch-brite, but can't
tell if the trees behind him are softwood or hardwood. Anyone know what he
prefers for flanging dies? . . . .My apologies to everyone.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard.
Ed Moody II
Message 17
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Members,
I am not any where near as knowledgeable about the various kinds of
wood available to builders to make rib dies, or anything else but I have
been making all kinds of things out of wood for about 60 years and In my
opinion based on experience nothing can beat oak. If you make it out of
oak it will still be serviceable when all on this list are cooling their
heels in pilot heaven. As one of you said, there are man made composite
materials like super hard plastics that can be cut, shaped, etc with
wood working tools but I have no idea what their life span would be.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: When the rivet hole gets too big |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
Ed,
If I understand correctly, shortly after I fill the hole with JBW I place the rivet
and pull. Does the sudden action of the rivet pull run the risk of deforming
the JBW and displacing a gob of it which might fall into the bowels of my
rudder? If not, I'll likely go this route.
Another option I had considered was to JB Weld it before I debur the rudder skin.
That way I can fill the void of the hole (with some kind of temporary backing),
allow it to dry (using your putty knife/denatured alcohol approach), then
hit it with the 400 grit sandpaper to reproduce a smooth outer surface that
I can re-drill (the right way this time!).
What do you think?
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
601XL #6493 from scratch
Rudder skin clecoed and ready to prime/rivet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59223#59223
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK |
I built mine from plywood scraps too, Gary.
They worked fine. Used one set of plywood flanging dies to scratch-build
the whole airplane, and they're still in good shape... except the ones I
trimmed too much to get into tight places.
I tried using a single bolt to draw the plywood dies together to form
the flanges, but found that I had better/easier results when I squoze
the dies together with some big ol' "C" clamps.
Rick Pitcher
all flanged up and flying :)
"squoze"???
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies
And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up just
fine. Not opinion - FACT.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
(OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products
made for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood
for flanging dies.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
9/1/2006
Message 20
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John and all-
Accept my greatest respect for the "Up close and personal" way you
got your e-mail "Handle". Zenith builders are a pretty remarkable crew.
The shop I work at is on final for the Erie, Pa. airport and Friday
I noticed a slew of Blackhawks filing in (Probably to refuel) Around the
lunch table, someone said "He (The perp) just robbed a sporting goods
store and has over 40 guns. Talk about dangerous!"
My observation was "Having the best deer rifle doesn't mean JS when
you're facing chain guns."
I know I've asked it before, but never got a definitive answer. EAA
said you couldn't do it from a sport pilot perspective.
HDS builders are also allowed to build a set of HD wings. I'm not
talking sport pilot- can you legally cross register experimental and fly
with either set of wings? I know a number of HDS builders have
considered it.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuselage
Townville, Pa.
Message 21
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Just catching up on the Zenith list emails this morning and saw a post
from Bill Naumak asking about swapping the wings on the HD and HDS
Zodiacs. His question was added-on to a reply on another thread so I'm
posing the question here under a new header.
I built the HD version but would like to try the clipped/tapered HDS, so
I bought a set of plans and some ribs for the HDS outer wing panels and
planned on building them when I'm finished with my current project.
I'll build the HDS wings and fly off some more flight test hours, but I
don't want to leave the HDS wings on the plane permanantly. I really
LIKE my big slow-n-easy HD wings too.
After I flight tested the new HDS wings, can I just swap the outter wing
panels whenever I want with just a logbook entry? Or is it more
involved?
Thanks,
Rick Pitcher
CH601HD
http://www.lightflyers.com/birthday.html
Message 22
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Hi Bill,
I agree with you completely about the chain guns. Alas, the Sport
Pilot issue is a lot more fuzzy.
All the issues surrounding registration as an LSA don't play into the
limits of Sport Pilots at all. The determination as to whether a
plane is acceptable for Sport Pilot use depends on the plane's
performance rather than its registration. If the plane currently
performs within LSA limits then it is acceptable for use by a Sport
Pilot. It is that simple.
Let me move into the realm of conjecture now rather than matters of
fact. I recently read the final accident report involving the death
of the Walton heir in an ultralight crash. It turns out it wasn't a
legal ultralight at all. It had two seats. I couldn't really make a
lot of sense out of the cause for the crash, but it was clear the
aircraft was illegal to start with since it was a two seat
ultralight. It was complicated by the fact that it had had a hard
landing which caused considerable structural damage. The owner
decided to fix it himself rather than allowing the manufacturer to do
the repairs - which they apparently begged and pleaded with him to
do. In the end they supplied the parts and the owner completely blew
the repairs. He didn't install all the parts before flying, and
those parts he did install were not properly done. He made major
design changes and failed to actually fix all the problems created in
the control system. HIs fatal crash seems to have been caused by the
elevator controls seizing up and preventing him from controlling the
aircraft's pitch. It flew into the ground and got all squashed up
along with the pilot.
My conjecture is that the FAA and NTSB folks really hate the
situation created with ultralights and their two seat cousins. They
are going to great lengths to get the ultralight community and
particularly those members of that community flying two seat aircraft
back into the fold of regulation, pilot licensing, and generally
accepted practice of aircraft construction, maintenance and
repair. To do this they have given up complete control over the
aircraft design (Part 23) along with medical certification for pilots
so long as the operations are limited to two seat aircraft that are
not heavy enough to do a lot of damage when they hit something on the
ground. I have seen and heard of examples of great leniency in their
determinations related to Experimental LSA. In one case a newly
built KitFox was given a 5 hour phase I flight test period. In
another case, a conversion with a cockpit adjustable propeller was
allowed so long as a placard was installed saying "Do not adjust
propeller in flight".
The bottom line of my whole diatribe is that we spend a lot of time
and energy worrying about the nitty gritty details of the new
regulations while the FAA inspectors bend over backward to allow
airworthiness certificates for anything relatively close to the
limits. This probably won't last forever, but so long as they are
getting fools who fly unregistered airplanes that are improperly
maintained to change their ways I think the FAA folks will continue
to be extremely cooperative.
Sorry about the long post, but I have been wanting to vent that
thought for a while now.
do not archive
Paul
XL fuselage
> I know I've asked it before, but never got a definitive answer.
> EAA said you couldn't do it from a sport pilot perspective.
> HDS builders are also allowed to build a set of HD wings. I'm
> not talking sport pilot- can you legally cross register
> experimental and fly with either set of wings? I know a number of
> HDS builders have considered it.
>
>Bill Naumuk
>
>HDS Fuselage
>
>Townville, Pa.
>
-
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK |
Hay Rick,
There are all kinds of ways to press. Did you hear about the guy
who used his car. He put the flanging die under one of the front wheels
and jacked the car up and down with an air driven bumper jack. All it
takes is a good imagination. And the will to stick with it until you
are flying an airplane you built and there is nothing like it.
Bob Stone
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: R.P.
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK
I built mine from plywood scraps too, Gary.
They worked fine. Used one set of plywood flanging dies to
scratch-build the whole airplane, and they're still in good shape...
except the ones I trimmed too much to get into tight places.
I tried using a single bolt to draw the plywood dies together to form
the flanges, but found that I had better/easier results when I squoze
the dies together with some big ol' "C" clamps.
Rick Pitcher
all flanged up and flying :)
"squoze"???
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies
And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up
just fine. Not opinion - FACT.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
(OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products
made for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood
for flanging dies.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Date: 9/1/2006
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
Gary,
Nice work. There's been a lot of talk about using a better material. Well here's
one more. Consider using masonite or MDF. I made my set of dies from a combination
of 3/4" thick fiberboard and 1/4" masonite. These materials provide
a few advantages. I did all my flanging with these and they showed no ware
and tear. It's hard and there is no grain. Best of all, it's cheap compared
to plywood. I bought a 4x8 sheet of the 3/4 fiberboard for under 10 dollars.
I made all my form blocks and dies from that sheet, with exception of the
form for the firewall that I had already made from plywood.
I looked into these materials when someone on this list suggested using the plastic
wood now available for deck materials. I like the idea, but I found that
these were very expensive.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:04 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Ever since Bill Naumuk convinced me that I could scrap build my center section
and fuselage (after kit building the tail and wings), I have been known to stare
at the ceiling in the middle of the night, visualizing how I could build
flanging dies out of wood.
Not to be outdone by Dave's Cheap Sheet Metal Bending Brake, and in an obvious
effort to take the food right out of the mouths of the babies of machinists,
I finally made, and used (successfully), flanging dies out of plywood!
I hope the attachments are within the abilities of all to download, and, since
this is my first attempt at attaching an image, I am currently sitting uncomfortably
in my asbestos underwear.
Wood is really what I am most comfortable with. Switching from a Pietenpol to
a 601 was a last minute decision after completing the WW Corvair Conversion.
Any of you wood-chucks out there, like me, who wish a more detailed account can
e-mail me directly. (any body skinned their 601 fuselage with plywood?....just
kidding.)
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Self-Etching primer FYI |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John" <johndread@wildblue.net>
Hi Dave:
I looked at the Dupli color material but it did not appear to
be suitable for aluminum. The self etch primer sold by NAPA
mentioned in an earlier listing is. 985 made by Sherwin
Williams also works well.
do not archive.
Regards, John
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave and Jan Clay"
> <dclaytx2@hotmail.com>
>
> The self-etching primer I have been buying from my local auto parts store
> is
> actually manufactured by Dupli-Color. Out of curiosity I called and asked
> their tech support a few questions. My main concern was related to
> topcoating. The tech rep said this is not needed for internal
> applications.
> It would be needed if the primer was applied to external surfaces as it
> contains no UV inhibitors. Just thought I'd pass this along.
>
> Dave Clay
> Temple, TX
> 601XL Scratch Builder
> http://www.daves601xl.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get real-time traffic reports with Windows Live Local Search
> http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=42.336065~-109.392273&style=r&lvl=4&scene=3712634&trfc=1
>
>
Regards, John Read
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Self-Etching primer FYI |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave" <dclaytx2@hotmail.com>
Hey John,
This particular primer says "Ideal for Aluminum" right on the front of the can.
The tech support person also said it was fine for my inteneded purpose. It really
seems to adhere very well. Possibly, we're talking about different products.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59251#59251
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
I'm not planning to leave the wood in contact with the aluminum for very
long. I figure that the short contact time will save me from having to use an
acid metal prep. :)
Jim
In a message dated 9/3/2006 10:54:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
dredmoody@cox.net writes:
Don't feel bad. At one time or another, all men spend some time thinking
about pressure-treated pine. It's just a phase that you are going through. In
the end, you will come to the realization that if pressure treated wood
requires the use of specially coated screws so that your fence or deck does not
fall
apart in a couple of years, then it probably isn't a good material to use to
squeeze aircraft aluminum into shape. There now, take a deep breath.... feel
better?
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: _J2j3h4@aol.com_ (mailto:J2j3h4@aol.com)
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
I'm thinking of using pressure-treated pine. If you have ever worked with
this, you know that it is very hard.
Jim Hasper
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Swapping wings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Rick,
I believe you'd only need to have a POH that indicated performance specs
and maintenance for both types of wing or perhaps a separate POH that went
with the wing set you were using at the time. Registration should be
the same. Shouldn't be more complex than flying with or without wheel
pants in
my opinion.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
R.P. wrote:
> Just catching up on the Zenith list emails this morning and saw a post
> from Bill Naumak asking about swapping the wings on the HD and HDS
> Zodiacs. His question was added-on to a reply on another thread so I'm
> posing the question here under a new header.
>
> I built the HD version but would like to try the clipped/tapered HDS,
> so I bought a set of plans and some ribs for the HDS outer wing panels
> and planned on building them when I'm finished with my current project.
> I'll build the HDS wings and fly off some more flight test hours, but
> I don't want to leave the HDS wings on the plane permanantly. I
> really LIKE my big slow-n-easy HD wings too.
> After I flight tested the new HDS wings, can I just swap the
> outter wing panels whenever I want with just a logbook entry? Or is it
> more involved?
>
> Thanks,
> Rick Pitcher
> CH601HD
> http://www.lightflyers.com/birthday.html
>
>*
>
>*
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: When the rivet hole gets too big |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net>
I've only built my first airplane, assisted on two others and am in the
middle of my own second plane so be warned my advice is based on only that
experience which is far from vast. With that disclaimer out of the way, I
wouldn't allow the JB Weld to set, then perfect it, then redrill and set the
rivet. I'd be afraid that the epoxy would, (A) have only the edge of the
hole to bond to, (B) would be only as about thin as the aluminum sheet
itself, and (C) would brake off when the rivet was squeezed (our Avex rivets
expand to fill slightly irreguar holes). I'm not 100% positive but that's
why I would do the JB Weld and the rivet in the same time frame. Don't gob
it on but if some does get into the bowels of the rudder, I don't think the
rudder bowel gods would be terribly overcome with wrath. The rivet will most
definitely displace the epoxy material.... some inside and some outside. The
excess on the outside I would conservatively remove (a little bead of the
stuff around the set rivet head wouldn't be a bad thing). The excess on the
inside would be the part I would count on to keep it in place and stable.
Remember like using the Black Death on an RV tank, if you have a cleco in
that hole clean in before the epoxy sets (alcohol work well).
Don't worry about this repair too much. If this is your greatest concession
to perfect aircraft construction, you are one blessed pilgrim, honestly.
Ed
Do Not Archive
Do Not get JB Weld in your bowels either
----- Original Message -----
From: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: When the rivet hole gets too big
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
>
> Ed,
>
> If I understand correctly, shortly after I fill the hole with JBW I place
> the rivet and pull. Does the sudden action of the rivet pull run the risk
> of deforming the JBW and displacing a gob of it which might fall into the
> bowels of my rudder? If not, I'll likely go this route.
>
> Another option I had considered was to JB Weld it before I debur the
> rudder skin. That way I can fill the void of the hole (with some kind of
> temporary backing), allow it to dry (using your putty knife/denatured
> alcohol approach), then hit it with the 400 grit sandpaper to reproduce a
> smooth outer surface that I can re-drill (the right way this time!).
>
> What do you think?
Message 30
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| Subject: | Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
No need to apologize, Kevin. We had it coming.but if it could be determined
that those were Russian Plywood trees, we might have a clue where Bigfoot
lives!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
Do not archive.
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinbonds
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
I'm looking at the video of Bigfoot carrying the scothch-brite, but can't
tell if the trees behind him are softwood or hardwood. Anyone know what he
prefers for flanging dies? . . . .My apologies to everyone.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
<http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard.
Ed Moody II
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging Dies |
As described below, I have always understoond that Balsa is
"technically" a hardwood!
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive
You guys recommending a hardwood instead of softwood for flanging dies
just don't understand wood. "Hardwood" designates a wood that is from a
decidous tree. "Softwood" referrs to a wood that come from a coniferous
tree.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: New GPS in my 601XL |
Ed, I went and bought the 2000C and now I am overwhelmed with the difference
between it and my old G 195. I still can't get it to do what I think I want it
to do yet, but I'm wearing it down. Sure works well in bright sun light. Best
regards, Bill
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK |
This is very "old Hat" for nearly everyone on the list, but I couldn't
resist the opening, especially now that pics can be attached. Note the
dies are not made of plywood!
This system worked great. I still can't emphasize enough, before
flanging, sand the inside of the hole until you can run your finger
around it and feel that it is perfectly smooth. Anything less and the
flange will probably crack. I was in such a big hurry to try my dies
that I failed to do this and wound up with two cracks in a nose rib
flange. Had to make another nose rib because of this, another lesson.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, do not archive
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK
Hay Rick,
There are all kinds of ways to press. Did you hear about the guy
who used his car. He put the flanging die under one of the front wheels
and jacked the car up and down with an air driven bumper jack. All it
takes is a good imagination. And the will to stick with it until you
are flying an airplane you built and there is nothing like it.
Bob Stone
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: KABONG DRIVING ME FRIGGEN NUTS !!!! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "j. davis" <jd@lawsonimaging.ca>
Bill Naumuk wrote:
> -->
> Mark-
> I have no idea if this is relevant, but I've heard KABONG used by
> Chick Magee, a radio personality on the rather racy program "The Bob and
> Tom Show" I listen to on my commute to work. If I'm right, send the
> prize money in small bills, or a complete set of HH DVDs.
>
> do not archive
> Bill Naumuk
> 45%HDS
> Townville, Pa
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Zodie Rocket <mailto:zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com <mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 02, 2006 10:35 PM
> *Subject:* Zenith-List: KABONG DRIVING ME FRIGGEN NUTS !!!!
>
> I cant take it any longer !! What the Hell does KABONG stand for???
>
> **
>
> *
>
>
> *
'KABONG' has also been the signature of John Starn on the RV
list since the mid-nineties. FWIW...
--
Regards, J.
flying: Zenith STOL CH701/912 C-IGGY, 350 hrs.
building: Sonex #325, Jabiru 3300/6, 85% completed
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. | (computer science) |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin | jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
| c/o Brandywine Aviation | voice: 519.289.1527 |
| 5507 Irish Dr., Appin, ON | http://www.cleco.ca |
| N42 47.33 W081 36.50 31/13 | 2000+ x 60', elev: 740' |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
To most people the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and
annoys the pig.
Message 35
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All-
Two things.
1. I have a selfish personal interest in being able to swap wings.
The HD wings allegedly provide the short field capability I'd need to
use my neighbor's pasture to fly to a local airport, where I'd leave the
plane during flying season. Once at the airport, I'd swap for the HDS
wings and cruise. Rather than have to build a special trailer for the
whole plane, I could run the extra set of wings back and forth in the
back of Ma's truck with no hassle. Can anyone with FAA connections
follow up on this? There's a lot of conjecture and rationalization
flying around but no definitive answer.
2. The ability to use pictures attached to a post is a really
powerful tool, if we don't abuse the priviledge. When you're posting a
method of doing something, why not format your post into a "Mini
builder's manual?" Much more effective than trying to explain 3
dimensional concepts using the written word alone. Keep a camera close
by and shoot at 300K resolution. Once they've been compressed to JPEG, a
2M limit allows a LOT of pictures. If you don't have JPEG compression
software, download Apple's Quicktime free on the net.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuselage
Townville, Pa
Message 36
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All-
Just searched the archives but couldn't find the answer. I know the
fix was posted not too long ago.
What do you use to clean the gunk that accumulates on aluminum sheet
after it sits for a while? I think it was lacquer thinner.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuselage
Townville, Pa
Message 37
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| Subject: | Scotchbrite pad Question. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
You might try blasting with glass beads instead. Aluminium reacts with so
many things it can be hard to work with. When working with Aluminium the
Al-oxide is preferred... But it is easy to see how it won't like the other
harder metals. Sounds like the thing to do was to use ultrasonic in the
first place.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Bill Cardell
> Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 1:17 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question.
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell"
> <Bill@flyinmiata.com>
>
> Sorry, "near" is an exaggeration. The particular examples I'm
> painfully
> aware of are from a cylinder head porter using aluminum oxide to bead
> blast intake runners and ports before applying a thermal coating. What
> happens is the alu embeds in the aluminum parts and time
> releases as the
> parts heat cycle. Once it's in the intake stream and into the oil, it
> eats all the hard parts. Cylinder walls, crank journals, pins, valve
> stems, etc.
> On one of the engines I was involved with, the pins had 2 thou of wear
> after 125 miles. Car had to come back on a flatbed after 125 miles
> because it was pumping so much oil it fouled the plugs.
> According to GM, Scotchbrite wheels will accomplish the same damage if
> used to clean aluminum engine surfaces. The only way to get the stuff
> out of the pores of the aluminum is to jet clean and then ultrasonic
> cleaning.
>
>
> TurboDog's Dad
> Bill Cardell
> www.flyinmiata.com
> 1-800-FLY-MX5S
> 970-242-3800
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Schoenberger
> Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:42 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question.
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Schoenberger
> --> <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
> Bill . . . in what way does the aluminum oxide near an engine destroy
> it? Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive
>
> Bill Cardell wrote:
> > And whatever you do, don't get scotch-brite or any form of aluminum
> > oxide near an engine. No joke, it only takes a small amount
> to destroy
>
> > an engine. Don't ask how I know...
> > Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
> > www.flyinmiata.com <http://www.flyinmiata.com/> 1-800-FLY-MX5S tech
> > 970-242-3800
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> > *kevinbonds
> > *Sent:* Friday, September 01, 2006 7:30 PM
> > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> > *Subject:* RE: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > You are going to have a hard time with this one, here on
> the list. The
>
> > joke around here is that, all you have to do to ruffle some
> feathers
> > is mention "green scotch-brite" pads. The short of it is,
> every time
> > someone asks this question it leads to a flood of posts that do
> > nothing but confuse everyone. The only wise advice I can
> give you is
> > to be sure that you know what abrasive is in your pad (or
> sandpaper)
> > AC 43.13 says no Silicon Carbide; no iron oxide; for corrosive
> > reasons. Use only Aluminum Oxide or Garnet as an abrasive mineral.
> > Also, I have found the 3M website and packaging to be notoriously
> > lacking in this sort of information about their products. I
> have had
> > to call Customer Service on occasion and wait a while for
> them to hunt
>
> > the info down for me. I get a blank stare from auto paint
> shops when I
>
> > ask them about mineral content. Just know that this is not easily
> > answered.
> >
> > I'm convinced that, if we ever find Bigfoot, he will be holding a
> > green scotch-brite pad.
> >
> > Kevin Bonds
> >
> > Nashville TN
> >
> > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
> >
> > Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
> >
> > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
> > <http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekevinbonds>
> >
> > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> > *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> > *Hudsonmusic1@aol.com
> > *Sent:* Friday, September 01, 2006 4:22 PM
> > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question.
> >
> > Are the green scotchbrite pads you buy at wal-mart the same as the
> > ones you buy from the aircraft supply store? Thanks Jeff
> >
> > * *
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
He ain't dumb - he uses his GPS to locate those synthetic trees that are
strong and stable for his dies, and only scotchbrites the surfaces that
don't contact the AL.
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: kevinbonds
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
I'm looking at the video of Bigfoot carrying the scothch-brite, but
can't tell if the trees behind him are softwood or hardwood. Anyone know
what he prefers for flanging dies? . . . .My apologies to everyone.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward
Moody II
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:03 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard.
Ed Moody II
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
He's not in Louisiana.... he's got too much fur for our heat and
besides, Cajuns would have turned him into jambalaya long ago.
Ed Moody II
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
No need to apologize, Kevin. We had it coming.but if it could be
determined that those were Russian Plywood trees, we might have a clue
where Bigfoot lives!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
Do not archive.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad@gmail.com
On 9/3/06, Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com> wrote:
> Mostly, I thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the
> male and female bevels.
Hm ... didn't see the pictures of *those*. I'm curious.... -- Ihab
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 41
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| Subject: | performance at cruise |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Parsons <gyro_cfi@yahoo.com>
Hi,
Does anyone have performance figures for 601xl at
altitude with Franklin and/or Corvair Engine. Data
wanted: TAS @ Den. Alt.; Fuel consumption at same;
Empty weight of acft; Also weight and balance figures
for acft. CG fore and aft limits and moment of fuel
tanks and pilot location.
Just want to make sure this is the acft for me and my
wife.
Thanks Mike
__________________________________________________
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com>
Me too! Who cares if the wood is hard or soft. I too missed the important
part - THE JIG!
Don not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ihab.awad@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad@gmail.com
>
> On 9/3/06, Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com> wrote:
>> Mostly, I thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the
>> male and female bevels.
>
> Hm ... didn't see the pictures of *those*. I'm curious.... -- Ihab
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> --
> Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies |
Sorry guys...call it...delayed gratification...
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
Me too! Who cares if the wood is hard or soft. I too missed the important
part - THE JIG!
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad@gmail.com
>
> On 9/3/06, Gary Boothe <gboothe@calply.com> wrote:
>> Mostly, I thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the
>> male and female bevels.
>
> Hm ... didn't see the pictures of *those*. I'm curious.... -- Ihab
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> --
> Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Flanging Dies... plywood works OK |
Rick,
I, too, tried the C clamps on the first 3 holes. In the end I found the
ball peen clamp the quickest (kinda like the "200 lb Press).
Gary
I built mine from plywood scraps too, Gary.
They worked fine. Used one set of plywood flanging dies to scratch-build the
whole airplane, and they're still in good shape... except the ones I trimmed
too much to get into tight places.
I tried using a single bolt to draw the plywood dies together to form the
flanges, but found that I had better/easier results when I squoze the dies
together with some big ol' "C" clamps.
Rick Pitcher
all flanged up and flying :)
"squoze"???
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe <mailto:gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies
And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up just fine.
Not opinion - FACT.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
(OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products made
for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood for
flanging dies.
Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J
_____
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