---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/03/06: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:09 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robin Bellach) 2. 05:40 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robert L. Stone) 3. 06:04 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock? (dbortol) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe) 5. 06:49 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Zodie Rocket) 6. 07:20 AM - Re: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots (Edward Moody II) 7. 08:17 AM - Flanging Dies (Jaybannist@cs.com) 8. 08:39 AM - Re: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots (Edward Moody II) 9. 08:41 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II) 10. 08:41 AM - Re: Flanging Dies (Andrew Ackland) 11. 08:51 AM - Re: Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe) 12. 08:53 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II) 13. 09:01 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Bill Naumuk) 14. 09:02 AM - Re: When the rivet hole gets too big (Edward Moody II) 15. 09:04 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II) 16. 09:19 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (kevinbonds) 17. 09:27 AM - Hard woods (Robert L. Stone) 18. 09:30 AM - Re: When the rivet hole gets too big (lwinger) 19. 09:36 AM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (R.P.) 20. 09:41 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Bill Naumuk) 21. 10:30 AM - Swapping wings (R.P.) 22. 11:16 AM - Re: KABONG ? (Paul Mulwitz) 23. 11:35 AM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (Robert L. Stone) 24. 11:59 AM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Daniel Dempsey) 25. 12:12 PM - Re: Self-Etching primer FYI (John) 26. 01:05 PM - Re: Self-Etching primer FYI (TxDave) 27. 01:22 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (J2j3h4@aol.com) 28. 02:24 PM - Re: Swapping wings (LarryMcFarland) 29. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: When the rivet hole gets too big (Edward Moody II) 30. 03:32 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe) 31. 04:05 PM - Re: Flanging Dies (Randy L. Thwing) 32. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: New GPS in my 601XL (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 33. 04:28 PM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (Randy L. Thwing) 34. 05:19 PM - Re: KABONG DRIVING ME FRIGGEN NUTS !!!! (j. davis) 35. 05:21 PM - Wing swapping (Bill Naumuk) 36. 05:30 PM - White stuff (Bill Naumuk) 37. 06:00 PM - Re: Scotchbrite pad Question. (Noel Loveys) 38. 06:06 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robin Bellach) 39. 06:23 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Edward Moody II) 40. 07:21 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (ihab.awad@gmail.com) 41. 07:37 PM - performance at cruise (Michael Parsons) 42. 07:47 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Robin Bellach) 43. 08:02 PM - Re: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies (Gary Boothe) 44. 08:17 PM - Re: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK (Gary Boothe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:02 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Pine is very soft compared to true hardwoods like oak, walnut, and hickory, and you shouldn't need the poison of the PT. I can't see using fragile soft wood like pine or birch unless you are going to whittle it by hand with a pocket knife. Modern power tools don't care if they are cutting hard or soft wood, and the hard wood would be more durable. 'Course I'm in the hardwoods country of the Ozarks where these woods are plentiful. I'll soon be burning a truck load of hardwood scraps to keep warm, free from a local mill, and most would be ideal chunks to cut dies from. There is one advantage to plywood - the cross grain would prevent cracking with the grain. I'd use ply before PT. ----- Original Message ----- From: J2j3h4@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies I'm thinking of using pressure-treated pine. If you have ever worked with this, you know that it is very hard. Jim Hasper In a message dated 9/2/2006 9:12:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz I agree that Russian plywood is really good. It is not the same sort of low-quality junk plywood available at the Harry Home-owner stores at all. It is usually at least 7 layers of Birch. You get more layers as you get thicker plywood. It is also called Nordic Birch plywood - some of it even comes from countries other than Russia. I can get it at two different wood stores in Portland, OR. I like using it for all sorts of stuff around the shop including nice wood boxes. You can probably find it at higher class hardwood outlets rather than construction lumber companies. Paul XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Gary, Beautiful work on the flanging die. Considering the quality of your wood work I can see only one thing wrong, you should have used hard wood then your die would last a lot longer. Your die looks like western fir and if it is, that's a soft wood. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Ever since Bill Naumuk convinced me that I could scrap build my center section and fuselage (after kit building the tail and wings), I have been known to stare at the ceiling in the middle of the night, visualizing how I could build flanging dies out of wood. Not to be outdone by Dave's Cheap Sheet Metal Bending Brake, and in an obvious effort to take the food right out of the mouths of the babies of machinists, I finally made, and used (successfully), flanging dies out of plywood! I hope the attachments are within the abilities of all to download, and, since this is my first attempt at attaching an image, I am currently sitting uncomfortably in my asbestos underwear. Wood is really what I am most comfortable with. Switching from a Pietenpol to a 601 was a last minute decision after completing the WW Corvair Conversion. Any of you wood-chucks out there, like me, who wish a more detailed account can e-mail me directly. (any body skinned their 601 fuselage with plywood?....just kidding.) Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock? From: "dbortol" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "dbortol" Thanks Gary, I hope it will be useful. I remembered after sending it out that the plane I saw it on was an HDS, so it has a fixed trailing edge to lock the ailerons to. On an XL you'd have to raise the flaps (and make sure nobody steps on them, ouch!). Dino Bortolin La Salle, Ontario XL/Corvair [quote="gboothe(at)calply.com"]Dino, Nice sketch. Who needs a picture!? Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section [b]From:[/b] owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Dino Bortolin [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:02 AM [b]To:[/b] zenith-list@matronics.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock? I saw a very simple control lock on a 601 at Oshkosh. I can't recall the builder's name, but he was based at Osh. Unfortunately I didn't take a picture of the lock. I drew up a sketch (attached) that should give you the idea. The dimensions are approximate; some amount of 'eyeball engineering' is required. I think he had one on each outboard end of the elevator, and the flaps were retracted with another between each flap and aileron. Dino Bortolin La Salle, Ontario 601/Corvair [quote][b][/quote] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59174#59174 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:35 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Bob, Of course you are right. This being the "prototype", and the fact that it worked so well, I'll make the two smaller ones out of oak. A few weeks ago someone posted that they had used some of that man-made wood decking material with good results. A person can use whatever they want. Mostly, I thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the male and female bevels. Gary _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Stone Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 5:40 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Gary, Beautiful work on the flanging die. Considering the quality of your wood work I can see only one thing wrong, you should have used hard wood then your die would last a lot longer. Your die looks like western fir and if it is, that's a soft wood. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Ever since Bill Naumuk convinced me that I could scrap build my center section and fuselage (after kit building the tail and wings), I have been known to stare at the ceiling in the middle of the night, visualizing how I could build flanging dies out of wood. Not to be outdone by Dave's Cheap Sheet Metal Bending Brake, and in an obvious effort to take the food right out of the mouths of the babies of machinists, I finally made, and used (successfully), flanging dies out of plywood! I hope the attachments are within the abilities of all to download, and, since this is my first attempt at attaching an image, I am currently sitting uncomfortably in my asbestos underwear. Wood is really what I am most comfortable with. Switching from a Pietenpol to a 601 was a last minute decision after completing the WW Corvair Conversion. Any of you wood-chucks out there, like me, who wish a more detailed account can e-mail me directly. (any body skinned their 601 fuselage with plywood?....just kidding.) Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:32 AM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: KABONG ? Now I understand, and remember the alter Ego of Quick Draw had a name. Thank-You I was trying to think of a meaning for each letter like =93ASAP=94 or SNAFU. I didn=92t relate it to a nick name like cdngoose cdngoose -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 2:57 AM Subject: Zenith-List: KABONG ? I've had the KABONG handle since the early 1960's so I'm not part of any of these Johnny Come Lately's. I've had the handle before most if not all of them were born. I found out the other day that one of my now retired "rookies" was having a birthday, so having not seen him for more than 20 years I sent him a birthday card. I signed it only KABONG. It did have a return address but no name. Mailed it on Tuesday, 6:59am Thursday I got a call from "Buzz", he knew who sent it & called 411. The handle is "KABONG" (all caps) not El Kabong of Hanna-Barber cartoon fame. Do Not Archive. KABONG HRII N561FS (GBA & GWB) Have been asked that before, here's a "short" response. While a Patrol Sgt. on Fontana PD (early 60's) I went to a City masquerade party in all black western gear, complete with guns. Someone ask if I were the infamous gunfighter "Quicks Draw McGraw". One of my patrolman chimed in "Naw, he's El Kabong" (Q.D.McG 's alter ego, Long Ranger mask, black hat, cape and a guitar). They (my patrolman) used the shortened "Kabong" to identify me & the name stuck. My use of the shotgun as a baton was the basis of the comment. El Kabong "kabongs" bad guys with a guitar. While I was a patrol Sgt on Fontana PD I broke the wooden stocks of two 12 ga shotguns by using the shotgun more like a baton. First time a guy took a blindside swing at me while I was breaking up a bar fight. I stuck the barrel in the flight of his fist. He struck it so hard he broke his hand and the stock hit him in the gut area. That broke stock #1. A coupla weeks later there was a ten on one gang fight at a wedding. The ring leader (who I knew) headed for the back door. I was able to stick the stock between the persons in the crowd at his eye level, he ran into it and "clothesline" himself. You know one second your running full tilt and the next your head makes contact with an immovable object & your feet & butt are instantly above you head. So much for wooden stock #2. I had a loooong talk with my Chief. It ended with my asking about getting the city to buy one of the LAPD SWAT team riot stocks for "tests" and mount it on my 12 ga. They had a solid rubber type that is stock looking but it had kind of a molded in "pistol grip" also. It bends and rebounds without breaking. The Chief only asked that I not charge the city for any more stocks. We found out that they only came with new Ithaca shotguns so the Chief/City bought a new complete one. Never broke another stock, also learned to used the other end which was a lot stronger. No, I never did have to shoot anyone with 00 buck, I think it was because the perp's believed I really would shoot them and maybe mixed in with a little of the Kabong legend. They were right, I would have. When I started building and posting on the lists with Tom and I used kabong as a handle. From Bakersfield to OSH I'm remembered not as John H. "Jack" Starn but rather as "KABONG". Spent 5 plus years helping in the building of retired USAF Maj. Tom Gummo's HRII Rocket N561FS. Tom was an F-4 Wild Weasel with a name and body shape (his words) he was Gummibear. Most So. Cal RV guys have call sign (handle) and somewhere about 10-11 years ago someone asked if I had a "call sign" and I told the story. KABONG still sticks. Yes, as a matter of fact I do have videos of all the cartoons that features "El Kabong" . KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:ding@tbscc.com"lynn dingfelder Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:10 PM Subject: KABONG ? John, From the Zenith list, what does KABONG mean? Lynn corry, PA "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://wiki.matronics.com"http://wiki.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion -- 8/31/2006 -- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:03 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots ----- Original Message ----- From: William Dominguez Subject: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots I've noticed that my sweat is causing white spots in the metal surface that cannot be removed with lacquer thinner after the sweat have been left for a while. In some cases these white spots have develop into some type of white corrosion (filiform) that I have removed with scoth-brite. Is this common? Should I be concerned? William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans In Southwestern Louisiana it is not just common, it is normal. No need for concern there..... major need for an airconditioner. I am ordering mine today. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA sweaty 601XL / fuselage Do Not Archive Do Not sweat on the expensive aluminum ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:48 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies You guys recommending a hardwood instead of softwood for flanging dies just don't understand wood. "Hardwood" designates a wood that is from a decidous tree. "Softwood" referrs to a wood that come from a coniferous tree. It has very little to do with the strength of the wood. For instance, Aspen (hardwood) is very soft and would be easily carved with a pocket knife. Southern Longleaf Pine (softwood) is exceptionally strong, hard, dense and would be very difficult to carve with any knife. In fact, the old Conestoga wagon builders preferred Southern Pine to Oak for their wagon frames. You will find only softwoods listed in any table of properties of wood for structural uses. (FACTS) (OPINION) In the case of flanging dies, the strength of the wood has some bearing, but workability, texture and durability are more important. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products made for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood for flanging dies. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:43 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots Women often fail to appreciate the finer qualities that attach to nerdiness. Let her run off with a bad boy and see how long that lasts. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: JOHN STARN To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots Just remember that it's your friends that kid you. A: Because they can. and B: Because they care. They wouldn't spend the time or energy ribbing you if they didn't. KABONG Do Not Archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: kevinbonds To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HELP! My sweat is causing corrosion like spots No offense guys, but my wife says, "it's funny that you are such a nerd, that even your nerd friends make fun of you". Thanks guys. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. Empennage done; working on wings and engine. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:06 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" DUH!!! At a Russian plywood plant..... wasn't that obvious? Ed > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > I also used wooden flanging dies similar to your's. > The person who made them available to me made them out > of "Russian plywood". He also made all forming blocs > using that material. It is a very good plywood, but I > have no idea where we can find this. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:11 AM PST US From: "Andrew Ackland" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies You are right, the softest hardwood is BALSAWOOD! How long would a flanging die made from that hardwood last? Andy Ackland in the UK 601HD, tail done, working on wings. DO NOT ARCHIVE From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: 03 September 2006 16:16 Subject: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies "Softwood" referrs to a wood that come from a coniferous tree. It has very little to do with the strength of the wood ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:09 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up just fine. Not opinion - FACT. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section (OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products made for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood for flanging dies. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:35 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Don't feel bad. At one time or another, all men spend some time thinking about pressure-treated pine. It's just a phase that you are going through. In the end, you will come to the realization that if pressure treated wood requires the use of specially coated screws so that your fence or deck does not fall apart in a couple of years, then it probably isn't a good material to use to squeeze aircraft aluminum into shape. There now, take a deep breath.... feel better? Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: J2j3h4@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies I'm thinking of using pressure-treated pine. If you have ever worked with this, you know that it is very hard. Jim Hasper ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:44 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: KABONG ? Mark- You don't want to know what KABONG means in Bob+Tom parlance. Then again, maybe you do! do not archive Bill Naumuk 45%HDS Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Zodie Rocket To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:47 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: KABONG ? Now I understand, and remember the alter Ego of Quick Draw had a name. Thank-You I was trying to think of a meaning for each letter like =93ASAP=94 or SNAFU. I didn=92t relate it to a nick name like cdngoose cdngoose -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 2:57 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: KABONG ? I've had the KABONG handle since the early 1960's so I'm not part of any of these Johnny Come Lately's. I've had the handle before most if not all of them were born. I found out the other day that one of my now retired "rookies" was having a birthday, so having not seen him for more than 20 years I sent him a birthday card. I signed it only KABONG. It did have a return address but no name. Mailed it on Tuesday, 6:59am Thursday I got a call from "Buzz", he knew who sent it & called 411. The handle is "KABONG" (all caps) not El Kabong of Hanna-Barber cartoon fame. Do Not Archive. KABONG HRII N561FS (GBA & GWB) Have been asked that before, here's a "short" response. While a Patrol Sgt. on Fontana PD (early 60's) I went to a City masquerade party in all black western gear, complete with guns. Someone ask if I were the infamous gunfighter "Quicks Draw McGraw". One of my patrolman chimed in "Naw, he's El Kabong" (Q.D.McG 's alter ego, Long Ranger mask, black hat, cape and a guitar). They (my patrolman) used the shortened "Kabong" to identify me & the name stuck. My use of the shotgun as a baton was the basis of the comment. El Kabong "kabongs" bad guys with a guitar. While I was a patrol Sgt on Fontana PD I broke the wooden stocks of two 12 ga shotguns by using the shotgun more like a baton. First time a guy took a blindside swing at me while I was breaking up a bar fight. I stuck the barrel in the flight of his fist. He struck it so hard he broke his hand and the stock hit him in the gut area. That broke stock #1. A coupla weeks later there was a ten on one gang fight at a wedding. The ring leader (who I knew) headed for the back door. I was able to stick the stock between the persons in the crowd at his eye level, he ran into it and "clothesline" himself. You know one second your running full tilt and the next your head makes contact with an immovable object & your feet & butt are instantly above you head. So much for wooden stock #2. I had a loooong talk with my Chief. It ended with my asking about getting the city to buy one of the LAPD SWAT team riot stocks for "tests" and mount it on my 12 ga. They had a solid rubber type that is stock looking but it had kind of a molded in "pistol grip" also. It bends and rebounds without breaking. The Chief only asked that I not charge the city for any more stocks. We found out that they only came with new Ithaca shotguns so the Chief/City bought a new complete one. Never broke another stock, also learned to used the other end which was a lot stronger. No, I never did have to shoot anyone with 00 buck, I think it was because the perp's believed I really would shoot them and maybe mixed in with a little of the Kabong legend. They were right, I would have. When I started building and posting on the lists with Tom and I used kabong as a handle. From Bakersfield to OSH I'm remembered not as John H. "Jack" Starn but rather as "KABONG". Spent 5 plus years helping in the building of retired USAF Maj. Tom Gummo's HRII Rocket N561FS. Tom was an F-4 Wild Weasel with a name and body shape (his words) he was Gummibear. Most So. Cal RV guys have call sign (handle) and somewhere about 10-11 years ago someone asked if I had a "call sign" and I told the story. KABONG still sticks. Yes, as a matter of fact I do have videos of all the cartoons that features "El Kabong" . KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: lynn dingfelder To: jhstarn@verizon.net Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:10 PM Subject: KABONG ? John, From the Zenith list, what does KABONG mean? Lynn corry, PA - The Zenith-List Email Forum - --> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - --> - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> -- 8/31/2006 -- 9/1/2006 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:42 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When the rivet hole gets too big --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" Use the same size rivet WITH JB Weld freshly placed in the hole. That way the final appearance is uniform, the strength is adequate and everyone is happy. As the JB Weld starts to "gel" (watch your timing carefully) a clean putty knife damp (not dripping wet) with denatured alcohol will allow you to smooth any exposed epoxy material. 12 hours later, a little careful 400 grit sand paper and you're groovin'. Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: "lwinger" Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:29 AM Subject: Zenith-List: When the rivet hole gets too big > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" > > When doing side two of my trailing edge rudder skin, one of my last holes > "walked" on me. It was the end rivet on rear rib #3, and it became oblong > in a big hurry. Ouch. > > Since it is in a non-structural area, I'm looking for a good way to > recover. BTW, I'm planning to paint the plane, so I'll have opportunity > down the road to fill and shape if that is required/makes sense. > > One lister has already suggested a larger rivet (A5) and JB Weld if there > is still a void. What would you suggest? > > -------- > Larry Winger > Tustin, CA > 601XL #6493 from scratch > Rudder skin clecoed and ready to prime/rivet > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59157#59157 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:25 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard. Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Bellach To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Pine is very soft compared to true hardwoods like oak, walnut, and hickory, and you shouldn't need the poison of the PT. I can't see using fragile soft wood like pine or birch unless you are going to whittle it by hand with a pocket knife. Modern power tools don't care if they are cutting hard or soft wood, and the hard wood would be more durable. 'Course I'm in the hardwoods country of the Ozarks where these woods are plentiful. I'll soon be burning a truck load of hardwood scraps to keep warm, free from a local mill, and most would be ideal chunks to cut dies from. There is one advantage to plywood - the cross grain would prevent cracking with the grain. I'd use ply before PT. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:50 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies I'm looking at the video of Bigfoot carrying the scothch-brite, but can't tell if the trees behind him are softwood or hardwood. Anyone know what he prefers for flanging dies? . . . .My apologies to everyone. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard. Ed Moody II ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Zenith-List: Hard woods Members, I am not any where near as knowledgeable about the various kinds of wood available to builders to make rib dies, or anything else but I have been making all kinds of things out of wood for about 60 years and In my opinion based on experience nothing can beat oak. If you make it out of oak it will still be serviceable when all on this list are cooling their heels in pilot heaven. As one of you said, there are man made composite materials like super hard plastics that can be cut, shaped, etc with wood working tools but I have no idea what their life span would be. Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: When the rivet hole gets too big From: "lwinger" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" Ed, If I understand correctly, shortly after I fill the hole with JBW I place the rivet and pull. Does the sudden action of the rivet pull run the risk of deforming the JBW and displacing a gob of it which might fall into the bowels of my rudder? If not, I'll likely go this route. Another option I had considered was to JB Weld it before I debur the rudder skin. That way I can fill the void of the hole (with some kind of temporary backing), allow it to dry (using your putty knife/denatured alcohol approach), then hit it with the 400 grit sandpaper to reproduce a smooth outer surface that I can re-drill (the right way this time!). What do you think? -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL #6493 from scratch Rudder skin clecoed and ready to prime/rivet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59223#59223 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:00 AM PST US From: "R.P." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK I built mine from plywood scraps too, Gary. They worked fine. Used one set of plywood flanging dies to scratch-build the whole airplane, and they're still in good shape... except the ones I trimmed too much to get into tight places. I tried using a single bolt to draw the plywood dies together to form the flanges, but found that I had better/easier results when I squoze the dies together with some big ol' "C" clamps. Rick Pitcher all flanged up and flying :) "squoze"??? ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:49 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up just fine. Not opinion - FACT. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section (OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products made for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood for flanging dies. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 9/1/2006 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:45 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: KABONG ? John and all- Accept my greatest respect for the "Up close and personal" way you got your e-mail "Handle". Zenith builders are a pretty remarkable crew. The shop I work at is on final for the Erie, Pa. airport and Friday I noticed a slew of Blackhawks filing in (Probably to refuel) Around the lunch table, someone said "He (The perp) just robbed a sporting goods store and has over 40 guns. Talk about dangerous!" My observation was "Having the best deer rifle doesn't mean JS when you're facing chain guns." I know I've asked it before, but never got a definitive answer. EAA said you couldn't do it from a sport pilot perspective. HDS builders are also allowed to build a set of HD wings. I'm not talking sport pilot- can you legally cross register experimental and fly with either set of wings? I know a number of HDS builders have considered it. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:50 AM PST US From: "R.P." Subject: Zenith-List: Swapping wings Just catching up on the Zenith list emails this morning and saw a post from Bill Naumak asking about swapping the wings on the HD and HDS Zodiacs. His question was added-on to a reply on another thread so I'm posing the question here under a new header. I built the HD version but would like to try the clipped/tapered HDS, so I bought a set of plans and some ribs for the HDS outer wing panels and planned on building them when I'm finished with my current project. I'll build the HDS wings and fly off some more flight test hours, but I don't want to leave the HDS wings on the plane permanantly. I really LIKE my big slow-n-easy HD wings too. After I flight tested the new HDS wings, can I just swap the outter wing panels whenever I want with just a logbook entry? Or is it more involved? Thanks, Rick Pitcher CH601HD http://www.lightflyers.com/birthday.html ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:21 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: KABONG ? Hi Bill, I agree with you completely about the chain guns. Alas, the Sport Pilot issue is a lot more fuzzy. All the issues surrounding registration as an LSA don't play into the limits of Sport Pilots at all. The determination as to whether a plane is acceptable for Sport Pilot use depends on the plane's performance rather than its registration. If the plane currently performs within LSA limits then it is acceptable for use by a Sport Pilot. It is that simple. Let me move into the realm of conjecture now rather than matters of fact. I recently read the final accident report involving the death of the Walton heir in an ultralight crash. It turns out it wasn't a legal ultralight at all. It had two seats. I couldn't really make a lot of sense out of the cause for the crash, but it was clear the aircraft was illegal to start with since it was a two seat ultralight. It was complicated by the fact that it had had a hard landing which caused considerable structural damage. The owner decided to fix it himself rather than allowing the manufacturer to do the repairs - which they apparently begged and pleaded with him to do. In the end they supplied the parts and the owner completely blew the repairs. He didn't install all the parts before flying, and those parts he did install were not properly done. He made major design changes and failed to actually fix all the problems created in the control system. HIs fatal crash seems to have been caused by the elevator controls seizing up and preventing him from controlling the aircraft's pitch. It flew into the ground and got all squashed up along with the pilot. My conjecture is that the FAA and NTSB folks really hate the situation created with ultralights and their two seat cousins. They are going to great lengths to get the ultralight community and particularly those members of that community flying two seat aircraft back into the fold of regulation, pilot licensing, and generally accepted practice of aircraft construction, maintenance and repair. To do this they have given up complete control over the aircraft design (Part 23) along with medical certification for pilots so long as the operations are limited to two seat aircraft that are not heavy enough to do a lot of damage when they hit something on the ground. I have seen and heard of examples of great leniency in their determinations related to Experimental LSA. In one case a newly built KitFox was given a 5 hour phase I flight test period. In another case, a conversion with a cockpit adjustable propeller was allowed so long as a placard was installed saying "Do not adjust propeller in flight". The bottom line of my whole diatribe is that we spend a lot of time and energy worrying about the nitty gritty details of the new regulations while the FAA inspectors bend over backward to allow airworthiness certificates for anything relatively close to the limits. This probably won't last forever, but so long as they are getting fools who fly unregistered airplanes that are improperly maintained to change their ways I think the FAA folks will continue to be extremely cooperative. Sorry about the long post, but I have been wanting to vent that thought for a while now. do not archive Paul XL fuselage > I know I've asked it before, but never got a definitive answer. > EAA said you couldn't do it from a sport pilot perspective. > HDS builders are also allowed to build a set of HD wings. I'm > not talking sport pilot- can you legally cross register > experimental and fly with either set of wings? I know a number of > HDS builders have considered it. > >Bill Naumuk > >HDS Fuselage > >Townville, Pa. > - ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK Hay Rick, There are all kinds of ways to press. Did you hear about the guy who used his car. He put the flanging die under one of the front wheels and jacked the car up and down with an air driven bumper jack. All it takes is a good imagination. And the will to stick with it until you are flying an airplane you built and there is nothing like it. Bob Stone DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: R.P. To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK I built mine from plywood scraps too, Gary. They worked fine. Used one set of plywood flanging dies to scratch-build the whole airplane, and they're still in good shape... except the ones I trimmed too much to get into tight places. I tried using a single bolt to draw the plywood dies together to form the flanges, but found that I had better/easier results when I squoze the dies together with some big ol' "C" clamps. Rick Pitcher all flanged up and flying :) "squoze"??? ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:49 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up just fine. Not opinion - FACT. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section (OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products made for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood for flanging dies. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Date: 9/1/2006 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:55 AM PST US From: Daniel Dempsey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Gary, Nice work. There's been a lot of talk about using a better material. Well here's one more. Consider using masonite or MDF. I made my set of dies from a combination of 3/4" thick fiberboard and 1/4" masonite. These materials provide a few advantages. I did all my flanging with these and they showed no ware and tear. It's hard and there is no grain. Best of all, it's cheap compared to plywood. I bought a 4x8 sheet of the 3/4 fiberboard for under 10 dollars. I made all my form blocks and dies from that sheet, with exception of the form for the firewall that I had already made from plywood. I looked into these materials when someone on this list suggested using the plastic wood now available for deck materials. I like the idea, but I found that these were very expensive. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:04 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Ever since Bill Naumuk convinced me that I could scrap build my center section and fuselage (after kit building the tail and wings), I have been known to stare at the ceiling in the middle of the night, visualizing how I could build flanging dies out of wood. Not to be outdone by Dave's Cheap Sheet Metal Bending Brake, and in an obvious effort to take the food right out of the mouths of the babies of machinists, I finally made, and used (successfully), flanging dies out of plywood! I hope the attachments are within the abilities of all to download, and, since this is my first attempt at attaching an image, I am currently sitting uncomfortably in my asbestos underwear. Wood is really what I am most comfortable with. Switching from a Pietenpol to a 601 was a last minute decision after completing the WW Corvair Conversion. Any of you wood-chucks out there, like me, who wish a more detailed account can e-mail me directly. (any body skinned their 601 fuselage with plywood?....just kidding.) Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Self-Etching primer FYI From: "John" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John" Hi Dave: I looked at the Dupli color material but it did not appear to be suitable for aluminum. The self etch primer sold by NAPA mentioned in an earlier listing is. 985 made by Sherwin Williams also works well. do not archive. Regards, John > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave and Jan Clay" > > > The self-etching primer I have been buying from my local auto parts store > is > actually manufactured by Dupli-Color. Out of curiosity I called and asked > their tech support a few questions. My main concern was related to > topcoating. The tech rep said this is not needed for internal > applications. > It would be needed if the primer was applied to external surfaces as it > contains no UV inhibitors. Just thought I'd pass this along. > > Dave Clay > Temple, TX > 601XL Scratch Builder > http://www.daves601xl.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get real-time traffic reports with Windows Live Local Search > http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=42.336065~-109.392273&style=r&lvl=4&scene=3712634&trfc=1 > > Regards, John Read ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Self-Etching primer FYI From: "TxDave" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave" Hey John, This particular primer says "Ideal for Aluminum" right on the front of the can. The tech support person also said it was fine for my inteneded purpose. It really seems to adhere very well. Possibly, we're talking about different products. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59251#59251 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:59 PM PST US From: J2j3h4@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies I'm not planning to leave the wood in contact with the aluminum for very long. I figure that the short contact time will save me from having to use an acid metal prep. :) Jim In a message dated 9/3/2006 10:54:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time, dredmoody@cox.net writes: Don't feel bad. At one time or another, all men spend some time thinking about pressure-treated pine. It's just a phase that you are going through. In the end, you will come to the realization that if pressure treated wood requires the use of specially coated screws so that your fence or deck does not fall apart in a couple of years, then it probably isn't a good material to use to squeeze aircraft aluminum into shape. There now, take a deep breath.... feel better? Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: _J2j3h4@aol.com_ (mailto:J2j3h4@aol.com) Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies I'm thinking of using pressure-treated pine. If you have ever worked with this, you know that it is very hard. Jim Hasper (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:03 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Swapping wings --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Rick, I believe you'd only need to have a POH that indicated performance specs and maintenance for both types of wing or perhaps a separate POH that went with the wing set you were using at the time. Registration should be the same. Shouldn't be more complex than flying with or without wheel pants in my opinion. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com R.P. wrote: > Just catching up on the Zenith list emails this morning and saw a post > from Bill Naumak asking about swapping the wings on the HD and HDS > Zodiacs. His question was added-on to a reply on another thread so I'm > posing the question here under a new header. > > I built the HD version but would like to try the clipped/tapered HDS, > so I bought a set of plans and some ribs for the HDS outer wing panels > and planned on building them when I'm finished with my current project. > I'll build the HDS wings and fly off some more flight test hours, but > I don't want to leave the HDS wings on the plane permanantly. I > really LIKE my big slow-n-easy HD wings too. > After I flight tested the new HDS wings, can I just swap the > outter wing panels whenever I want with just a logbook entry? Or is it > more involved? > > Thanks, > Rick Pitcher > CH601HD > http://www.lightflyers.com/birthday.html > >* > >* > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:53 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: When the rivet hole gets too big --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Edward Moody II" I've only built my first airplane, assisted on two others and am in the middle of my own second plane so be warned my advice is based on only that experience which is far from vast. With that disclaimer out of the way, I wouldn't allow the JB Weld to set, then perfect it, then redrill and set the rivet. I'd be afraid that the epoxy would, (A) have only the edge of the hole to bond to, (B) would be only as about thin as the aluminum sheet itself, and (C) would brake off when the rivet was squeezed (our Avex rivets expand to fill slightly irreguar holes). I'm not 100% positive but that's why I would do the JB Weld and the rivet in the same time frame. Don't gob it on but if some does get into the bowels of the rudder, I don't think the rudder bowel gods would be terribly overcome with wrath. The rivet will most definitely displace the epoxy material.... some inside and some outside. The excess on the outside I would conservatively remove (a little bead of the stuff around the set rivet head wouldn't be a bad thing). The excess on the inside would be the part I would count on to keep it in place and stable. Remember like using the Black Death on an RV tank, if you have a cleco in that hole clean in before the epoxy sets (alcohol work well). Don't worry about this repair too much. If this is your greatest concession to perfect aircraft construction, you are one blessed pilgrim, honestly. Ed Do Not Archive Do Not get JB Weld in your bowels either ----- Original Message ----- From: "lwinger" Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:28 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: When the rivet hole gets too big > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwinger" > > Ed, > > If I understand correctly, shortly after I fill the hole with JBW I place > the rivet and pull. Does the sudden action of the rivet pull run the risk > of deforming the JBW and displacing a gob of it which might fall into the > bowels of my rudder? If not, I'll likely go this route. > > Another option I had considered was to JB Weld it before I debur the > rudder skin. That way I can fill the void of the hole (with some kind of > temporary backing), allow it to dry (using your putty knife/denatured > alcohol approach), then hit it with the 400 grit sandpaper to reproduce a > smooth outer surface that I can re-drill (the right way this time!). > > What do you think? ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:31 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies No need to apologize, Kevin. We had it coming.but if it could be determined that those were Russian Plywood trees, we might have a clue where Bigfoot lives! Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section Do not archive. _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinbonds Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies I'm looking at the video of Bigfoot carrying the scothch-brite, but can't tell if the trees behind him are softwood or hardwood. Anyone know what he prefers for flanging dies? . . . .My apologies to everyone. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard. Ed Moody II ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:14 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies As described below, I have always understoond that Balsa is "technically" a hardwood! Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive You guys recommending a hardwood instead of softwood for flanging dies just don't understand wood. "Hardwood" designates a wood that is from a decidous tree. "Softwood" referrs to a wood that come from a coniferous tree. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:20 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New GPS in my 601XL Ed, I went and bought the 2000C and now I am overwhelmed with the difference between it and my old G 195. I still can't get it to do what I think I want it to do yet, but I'm wearing it down. Sure works well in bright sun light. Best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:12 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK This is very "old Hat" for nearly everyone on the list, but I couldn't resist the opening, especially now that pics can be attached. Note the dies are not made of plywood! This system worked great. I still can't emphasize enough, before flanging, sand the inside of the hole until you can run your finger around it and feel that it is perfectly smooth. Anything less and the flange will probably crack. I was in such a big hurry to try my dies that I failed to do this and wound up with two cracks in a nose rib flange. Had to make another nose rib because of this, another lesson. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas, do not archive Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK Hay Rick, There are all kinds of ways to press. Did you hear about the guy who used his car. He put the flanging die under one of the front wheels and jacked the car up and down with an air driven bumper jack. All it takes is a good imagination. And the will to stick with it until you are flying an airplane you built and there is nothing like it. Bob Stone DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:23 PM PST US From: "j. davis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: KABONG DRIVING ME FRIGGEN NUTS !!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "j. davis" Bill Naumuk wrote: > --> > Mark- > I have no idea if this is relevant, but I've heard KABONG used by > Chick Magee, a radio personality on the rather racy program "The Bob and > Tom Show" I listen to on my commute to work. If I'm right, send the > prize money in small bills, or a complete set of HH DVDs. > > do not archive > Bill Naumuk > 45%HDS > Townville, Pa > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Zodie Rocket > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, September 02, 2006 10:35 PM > *Subject:* Zenith-List: KABONG DRIVING ME FRIGGEN NUTS !!!! > > I cant take it any longer !! What the Hell does KABONG stand for??? > > ** > > * > > > * 'KABONG' has also been the signature of John Starn on the RV list since the mid-nineties. FWIW... -- Regards, J. flying: Zenith STOL CH701/912 C-IGGY, 350 hrs. building: Sonex #325, Jabiru 3300/6, 85% completed +-------------------------------------------------------+ | J. Davis, M.Sc. | (computer science) | | *NIX consulting, SysAdmin | jd at lawsonimaging.ca | | c/o Brandywine Aviation | voice: 519.289.1527 | | 5507 Irish Dr., Appin, ON | http://www.cleco.ca | | N42 47.33 W081 36.50 31/13 | 2000+ x 60', elev: 740' | +-------------------------------------------------------+ To most people the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home. Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:45 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Wing swapping All- Two things. 1. I have a selfish personal interest in being able to swap wings. The HD wings allegedly provide the short field capability I'd need to use my neighbor's pasture to fly to a local airport, where I'd leave the plane during flying season. Once at the airport, I'd swap for the HDS wings and cruise. Rather than have to build a special trailer for the whole plane, I could run the extra set of wings back and forth in the back of Ma's truck with no hassle. Can anyone with FAA connections follow up on this? There's a lot of conjecture and rationalization flying around but no definitive answer. 2. The ability to use pictures attached to a post is a really powerful tool, if we don't abuse the priviledge. When you're posting a method of doing something, why not format your post into a "Mini builder's manual?" Much more effective than trying to explain 3 dimensional concepts using the written word alone. Keep a camera close by and shoot at 300K resolution. Once they've been compressed to JPEG, a 2M limit allows a LOT of pictures. If you don't have JPEG compression software, download Apple's Quicktime free on the net. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:56 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: White stuff All- Just searched the archives but couldn't find the answer. I know the fix was posted not too long ago. What do you use to clean the gunk that accumulates on aluminum sheet after it sits for a while? I think it was lacquer thinner. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:52 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" You might try blasting with glass beads instead. Aluminium reacts with so many things it can be hard to work with. When working with Aluminium the Al-oxide is preferred... But it is easy to see how it won't like the other harder metals. Sounds like the thing to do was to use ultrasonic in the first place. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Bill Cardell > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 1:17 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question. > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Cardell" > > > Sorry, "near" is an exaggeration. The particular examples I'm > painfully > aware of are from a cylinder head porter using aluminum oxide to bead > blast intake runners and ports before applying a thermal coating. What > happens is the alu embeds in the aluminum parts and time > releases as the > parts heat cycle. Once it's in the intake stream and into the oil, it > eats all the hard parts. Cylinder walls, crank journals, pins, valve > stems, etc. > On one of the engines I was involved with, the pins had 2 thou of wear > after 125 miles. Car had to come back on a flatbed after 125 miles > because it was pumping so much oil it fouled the plugs. > According to GM, Scotchbrite wheels will accomplish the same damage if > used to clean aluminum engine surfaces. The only way to get the stuff > out of the pores of the aluminum is to jet clean and then ultrasonic > cleaning. > > > TurboDog's Dad > Bill Cardell > www.flyinmiata.com > 1-800-FLY-MX5S > 970-242-3800 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > Schoenberger > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:42 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question. > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Schoenberger > --> > > Bill . . . in what way does the aluminum oxide near an engine destroy > it? Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive > > Bill Cardell wrote: > > And whatever you do, don't get scotch-brite or any form of aluminum > > oxide near an engine. No joke, it only takes a small amount > to destroy > > > an engine. Don't ask how I know... > > Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) > > www.flyinmiata.com 1-800-FLY-MX5S tech > > 970-242-3800 > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > > *kevinbonds > > *Sent:* Friday, September 01, 2006 7:30 PM > > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question. > > > > Jeff > > > > You are going to have a hard time with this one, here on > the list. The > > > joke around here is that, all you have to do to ruffle some > feathers > > is mention "green scotch-brite" pads. The short of it is, > every time > > someone asks this question it leads to a flood of posts that do > > nothing but confuse everyone. The only wise advice I can > give you is > > to be sure that you know what abrasive is in your pad (or > sandpaper) > > AC 43.13 says no Silicon Carbide; no iron oxide; for corrosive > > reasons. Use only Aluminum Oxide or Garnet as an abrasive mineral. > > Also, I have found the 3M website and packaging to be notoriously > > lacking in this sort of information about their products. I > have had > > to call Customer Service on occasion and wait a while for > them to hunt > > > the info down for me. I get a blank stare from auto paint > shops when I > > > ask them about mineral content. Just know that this is not easily > > answered. > > > > I'm convinced that, if we ever find Bigfoot, he will be holding a > > green scotch-brite pad. > > > > Kevin Bonds > > > > Nashville TN > > > > 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building. > > > > Empennage done; working on wings and engine. > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds > > > > > > do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > > *Hudsonmusic1@aol.com > > *Sent:* Friday, September 01, 2006 4:22 PM > > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Scotchbrite pad Question. > > > > Are the green scotchbrite pads you buy at wal-mart the same as the > > ones you buy from the aircraft supply store? Thanks Jeff > > > > * * > > * > > > > > > * > > * > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:57 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies He ain't dumb - he uses his GPS to locate those synthetic trees that are strong and stable for his dies, and only scotchbrites the surfaces that don't contact the AL. Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: kevinbonds To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies I'm looking at the video of Bigfoot carrying the scothch-brite, but can't tell if the trees behind him are softwood or hardwood. Anyone know what he prefers for flanging dies? . . . .My apologies to everyone. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Moody II Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:03 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Pine and spruce are soft but birch is fairly hard. Ed Moody II ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:02 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies He's not in Louisiana.... he's got too much fur for our heat and besides, Cajuns would have turned him into jambalaya long ago. Ed Moody II ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 5:30 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies No need to apologize, Kevin. We had it coming.but if it could be determined that those were Russian Plywood trees, we might have a clue where Bigfoot lives! Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:20 PM PST US From: ihab.awad@gmail.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies --> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad@gmail.com On 9/3/06, Gary Boothe wrote: > Mostly, I thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the > male and female bevels. Hm ... didn't see the pictures of *those*. I'm curious.... -- Ihab DO NOT ARCHIVE -- Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:07 PM PST US From: Michael Parsons Subject: Zenith-List: performance at cruise --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michael Parsons Hi, Does anyone have performance figures for 601xl at altitude with Franklin and/or Corvair Engine. Data wanted: TAS @ Den. Alt.; Fuel consumption at same; Empty weight of acft; Also weight and balance figures for acft. CG fore and aft limits and moment of fuel tanks and pilot location. Just want to make sure this is the acft for me and my wife. Thanks Mike __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:56 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Me too! Who cares if the wood is hard or soft. I too missed the important part - THE JIG! Don not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad@gmail.com > > On 9/3/06, Gary Boothe wrote: >> Mostly, I thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the >> male and female bevels. > > Hm ... didn't see the pictures of *those*. I'm curious.... -- Ihab > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > -- > Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:45 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Gary's Cheap Flanging Dies Sorry guys...call it...delayed gratification... Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section Me too! Who cares if the wood is hard or soft. I too missed the important part - THE JIG! > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad@gmail.com > > On 9/3/06, Gary Boothe wrote: >> Mostly, I thought to show the simple 'jig' that I used to create the >> male and female bevels. > > Hm ... didn't see the pictures of *those*. I'm curious.... -- Ihab > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > -- > Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:39 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies... plywood works OK Rick, I, too, tried the C clamps on the first 3 holes. In the end I found the ball peen clamp the quickest (kinda like the "200 lb Press). Gary I built mine from plywood scraps too, Gary. They worked fine. Used one set of plywood flanging dies to scratch-build the whole airplane, and they're still in good shape... except the ones I trimmed too much to get into tight places. I tried using a single bolt to draw the plywood dies together to form the flanges, but found that I had better/easier results when I squoze the dies together with some big ol' "C" clamps. Rick Pitcher all flanged up and flying :) "squoze"??? ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:49 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flanging Dies And, yet, I built mine out of plywood scraps. They are holding up just fine. Not opinion - FACT. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion Tail done, wings done, working on c-section (OPINION) .. Personally, I think that the "artificial" wood products made for outdoor deck construction would beat any kind of "natural" wood for flanging dies. Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage N2630J _____