---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/09/06: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:51 AM - Re:power panels (T. Graziano) 2. 10:39 AM - HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons)) 3. 11:03 AM - 1080HD Bungees (Gpjann@aol.com) 4. 11:09 AM - Re: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets (Jaybannist@cs.com) 5. 11:27 AM - Re: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets (Paul Mulwitz) 6. 11:31 AM - Re: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets (Zodie Rocket) 7. 11:39 AM - Re: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets (Debo Cox) 8. 11:49 AM - Re: the solid rivets (Zed Smith) 9. 11:56 AM - Re: Nose gear bungees (Klaus Truemper) 10. 02:40 PM - Re: On-line info on making and using form blocks? (Ron Lendon) 11. 03:00 PM - Re: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets (Robert L. Stone) 12. 05:00 PM - Test email (Ron Lendon) 13. 05:10 PM - 801 fuel sender inspection covers. (Dave Ruddiman) 14. 05:11 PM - Re: Test email (Craig Payne) 15. 05:19 PM - "Stretched" aluminum (Jaybannist@cs.com) 16. 05:44 PM - Anyone know about an optical fuel sensor? (doug kandle) 17. 05:49 PM - Re: "Stretched" aluminum (LarryMcFarland) 18. 06:07 PM - Re: "Stretched" aluminum (Jeff) 19. 06:13 PM - Re: "Stretched" aluminum (Jaybannist@cs.com) 20. 06:51 PM - Re: Test email (Ron Lendon) 21. 07:16 PM - Re: (kevinbonds) 22. 07:38 PM - Re: Anyone know about an optical fuel sensor? (Tom) 23. 08:34 PM - Re: Anyone know about an optical fuel sensor? (Noel Loveys) 24. 10:32 PM - Re: Re: Nose gear bungees (xl) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:06 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: re:power panels --> Zenith-List message posted by: "T. Graziano" Jeff,, I used the Composite Design on my XL/Jab. I like it and it made the wiring easier. See http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo79.html Tony Graziano 601XL N493TG; 154 hrs ------------------------------------ > Time: 02:23:39 PM PST US > From: "Jeff " > Subject: Zenith-List: power panels > > I'm moving on to the electrical systems and considering "power panels". > There seem to be two products in the market to simplify building > electrical > systems. These are the EXPBUS 2V by Control Vision Corporation and the > Power Panel by Composite Design. Both also have variations of the product > available. The EXP BUS is sold by Van's for use in the RVs. Has anyone > considered using either of these for 601s? Any installations or > recommendations? Thanks .. > > > Jeff Davidson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:06 AM PST US From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons) Subject: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets A few weeks ago, I was looking at a WEB site of someone posting to this list. On it they had a simple devise for driving solid rivets. I would like to use this on the access cover floating nuts. Can any body send me to this WEB site? Yes! I am avoiding the $300 Rivet gun! Rich Simmons 601XL Left wing complete, working on Right hand.

A few weeks ago, I was looking at a WEB site of someone posting to this list.

On it they had a simple devise for driving solid rivets. I would like to use this on the access cover floating nuts.

Can any body send me to this WEB site?

Yes! I am avoiding the $300 Rivet gun!

Rich Simmons

601XL

Left wing complete, working on Right hand.

________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:36 AM PST US From: Gpjann@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 1080HD Bungees The HD after the 1080 denotes 'Heavy Duty'. While the length is the same the diameter of the bungee is larger. Hope this helps.... GPJ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:09 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets Rich, Those tiny rivets for the nutplates are relatively soft. I placed two rivets, countrsunk heads down, on a heavy piece of steel (the same beams used for wing construction & leveling), at about the spacing of the holes in the nutplates, then lowered the aluminum sheet & nutplate over the rivets. Using a short 1/4" bolt against the end of the rivet, I gave the head of the bolt two or three whacks with a hammer. It's really easier than it sounds, once you get a process going, and you really don't need any fancy tools. Jay in Dallas, working on XL canopy ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:22 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets Hi Rich, I just use a standard arbor press for setting solid rivets on nut plates. I already had one in my shop, but you can get a one ton press fro around $50. Good luck Paul XL fuselage > > >On it they had a simple devise for driving solid rivets. I would >like to use this on the access cover floating nuts. > > >Can any body send me to this WEB site? > > >Yes! I am avoiding the $300 Rivet gun! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:25 AM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets Rich, head on over to the resource section of HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org/"www.ch601.org Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich Simmons Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:38 PM Subject: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets A few weeks ago, I was looking at a WEB site of someone posting to this list. On it they had a simple devise for driving solid rivets. I would like to use this on the access cover floating nuts. Can any body send me to this WEB site? Yes! I am avoiding the $300 Rivet gun! Rich Simmons 601XL Left wing complete, working on Right hand. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion -- 10/7/2006 -- 10/7/2006 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:20 AM PST US From: Debo Cox Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets Hey Rich, I think you're talking about Dave Clay's web site. Scroll to the bottom of the home page, and there are some links in red text. Even if this is not what you're looking for, it's a great site. http://www.daves601xl.com/ Debo Cox XL/Corvair Working on wing spars Do not archive Rich Simmons <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> wrote: A few weeks ago, I was looking at a WEB site of someone posting to this list. On it they had a simple devise for driving solid rivets. I would like to use this on the access cover floating nuts. Can any body send me to this WEB site? Yes! I am avoiding the $300 Rivet gun! Rich Simmons 601XL Left wing complete, working on Right hand. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:49:44 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re: the solid rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith This may not apply to the immediate problem, but for those who still haven't tackled the trailing edges found on the 701: As a CPR (Certified Pack Rat), I just couldn't pass up a large box of used wire-terminal crimpers at a Ham sidewalk sale. Major brands, ratcheting stuff, NASA-looking tools, major-aircraft-manufacturer-looking, and so on. There were all sorts of "specials" included....stuff from high tech, low tech, aviation, pin inserters, pin removers, etc. One resembled just plain old pliers, but with an extra set of pivots so that the end result was "parallel jaws". That is, when in the open position the jaws are parallel, same as when closed. Since the jaws closed completely, as would a large Linemens' Pliers, and were smooth (no ridges), I pulled the pivot pins and ground one jaw to allow just enough room to set the 3/32" solids. When re-assembled it did a really good job. Would have helped if the handles had been longer for more mechanical advantage, but changing hands and taking a break does okay, too. Obviously this approach only works for one material thickness, and requires complete closing of the jaws each time, but it saved time and money. End result is that the top and bottom surfaces of the rivets are parallel and all the same height. Works best with nice new soft rivets. Batteries not included, some assembly required, have your major card ready, operators are standing by, do not archive. Regards, Zed/701/R912/90++%/etc ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:29 AM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Nose gear bungees --> Zenith-List message posted by: Klaus Truemper Hi, The nose gear bungees seem to fail because of the small diameter of the four tubes where the bungee makes an almost-180 deg turn. In my case, the muffler is in the area of the bungee, but twice the failure came from fraying at one of the tubes. A simple fix of the small-diameter problem does not seem possible, and replacing the bungee every 500 hours may be the most convenient solution. The use of sandbags on the horizontal stabilizer to lift the nose gear is not such a good idea. One might argue that this okay since the horizontal stabilizer/elevator must lift the nose gear on takeoff. But when the plane rotates on takeoff, the wings already carry almost all of the weight of the airplane. Thus, the horizontal stabilizer/elevator force needed for rotation on takeoff is much, much smaller than the force needed to lift the nose gear while parked. Cessna some years ago had failures of the horizontal stabilizer spar of the 152 because people would push down on the elevevator to lift the nose gear when parking the plane in a tight spot. Best wishes, Klaus Truemper -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On-line info on making and using form blocks? From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" Craig and all others, Take a look at the message at the fourm. The links work there. http://forums.matronics.com/index.php -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66803#66803 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets Here it is http://www.daves601xl.com/ Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Simmons To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 12:37 PM Subject: Zenith-List: HOmade tool for Driving Solid Rivets A few weeks ago, I was looking at a WEB site of someone posting to this list. On it they had a simple devise for driving solid rivets. I would like to use this on the access cover floating nuts. Can any body send me to this WEB site? Yes! I am avoiding the $300 Rivet gun! Rich Simmons 601XL Left wing complete, working on Right hand. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Test email From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" Here are a couple of links where I show the process I used in making all my forms. http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=1279&log-05&row=29 and http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=1279&log-25&row=28 and this one for the crimp locations http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=19861&row=39 Hope that helps. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66826#66826 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:51 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: 801 fuel sender inspection covers. What might the suggested diameter be for the inspection/access holes for the fuel sending units. They are about 3" in diameter. I am going to use doublers with nut plates to install them. Has anyone actually had to get to them after the top skin is on? I assume the plate should be .025, but what about the doubler? Thanks in advance Dave in Salem ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:07 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Test email --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" This time I see the links. I get indivual messages from the list. -- Craig do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lendon Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 6:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Test email --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" Here are a couple of links where I show the process I used in making all my forms. http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&categ ory=1279&log-05&row=29 and http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&categ ory=1279&log-25&row=28 and this one for the crimp locations http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&categ ory=0&log=19861&row=39 Hope that helps. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66826#66826 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:14 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: "Stretched" aluminum Hey folks, I just completed the fitting of the XL canopy inside flashing. I did the "stretching" on the top flange called for in the photo guide to make the panel curve to fit. It fits, but it looks like "hammered hell" !!. Has anyone else had this result and, if so, what did you do to improve the appearance? I haven't drilled for the top angle, so I am thinking about just adding a cut-to-fit piece of .025 to the top of the inside flashing. Any suggestions? Jay in Dallas, working on XL canopy Do not Archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:49 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Anyone know about an optical fuel sensor? From: "doug kandle" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" I have the extra tanks in my 701. The only way to use all of the gas in my tanks is to run one set dry. Since I don't want my starter motor to become a required piece of hardware for continued flight, I need to switch tanks after I have used all the fuel, but before the engine quits. I am plumbing my fuel lines and I wanted something to tell me that my fuel tank has run dry. I figure that the gas in my fuel lines from wing, through gasolator, and to the engine will keep the fan going long enough for me to switch to my outboard tanks. A friend of mine put an optical sensor in his plane. This is an alert system. (link to aircraft spruce item here http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/fuelguardian.php) But this is a complete system, I just want a sensor like this that I can put in my fuel line at the wing root. If I can just get a contact closure then I can use my EIS to annunciate the warning and give me 30 seconds or more to switch tanks. Does anyone know where I can get such a sensor with just a contact closure? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66837#66837 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:20 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: "Stretched" aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Jay, When you hammer a flashing that curves, you place the hammer on the inside of the sheet and the side that will be seen should be on a smooth piece of steel. Then all the marks will be on the inside and the surface showing will mirror the surface of the steel block. See links of pieces. Template ink curve is a gage on the table. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/flashinghammered.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/canopycurvegap.gif This also applies to the piece you form to join the fuselage skin to the wing. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/cnpyrailcover.gif I'd do it over again. Doesn't take that much time to get it right. Otherwise, you might just beat on it from the correct side and see if you can get rid of the marks. Worst case, sand prime and fill the imperfections, but it would take less time to redo it than make excuses for why you added a "fudge cover". Respectfully, Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > Hey folks, I just completed the fitting of the XL canopy inside > flashing. I did the "stretching" on the top flange called for in the > photo guide to make the panel curve to fit. It fits, but it looks > like "hammered hell" !!. Has anyone else had this result and, if so, > what did you do to improve the appearance? I haven't drilled for the > top angle, so I am thinking about just adding a cut-to-fit piece of > .025 to the top of the inside flashing. Any suggestions? > > Jay in Dallas, working on XL canopy > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:20 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: "Stretched" aluminum Jay, I had the same effect on the inside canopy frame trim. I just painted it while I had the pieces separated and moved on! A shrinker/stretcher tool might have left a better looking result despite the marks it leaves. Jeff Davidson Hey folks, I just completed the fitting of the XL canopy inside flashing. I did the "stretching" on the top flange called for in the photo guide to make the panel curve to fit. It fits, but it looks like "hammered hell" !!. Has anyone else had this result and, if so, what did you do to improve the appearance? I haven't drilled for the top angle, so I am thinking about just adding a cut-to-fit piece of .025 to the top of the inside flashing. Any suggestions? Jay in Dallas, working on XL canopy Do not Archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:20 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: "Stretched" aluminum Larry, Thanks for the advise. I'll probably start over and do it right this time. I am surprised about your comment regarding "the piece to connect the fuselage skin to the wing." My kit has a rubber fairing strip. Has something changed? Or is this just a better way to do it? Jay in Dallas Do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Test email From: "Ron Lendon" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" Thats interesting. I posted this at the forum just like the other one. I set myself up again to receive emails from the list so I can see what you are seeing. I am keeping quite a comprehenshive log of my activities and trying to show the procedures used. Again Hope it helps you. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66850#66850 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:49 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: The one over Bromont golf course is better. He now has a gyro in the VR goggles that control the camera. Take a look at this one. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2237947353453839215 Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant Corriveau Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 12:40 AM Subject: Zenith-List: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7239242995971908820 this time with the link!! sorry, ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:09 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Anyone know about an optical fuel sensor? From: "Tom" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tom" My impression of what you want to do sounds like very risky fuel management to me. Why don't you calculate your fuel out and leave some fuel, enough that if you had to switch back to it you could run for a half an hour? -------- Tom CH801 http://tompizza.webhop.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66862#66862 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:46 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Anyone know about an optical fuel sensor? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" Why not "T" in the outboard tanks? Then there would be no connecting, disconnecting, or fuel spraying around the cockpit. I'm also thinking that thirty seconds can pass pretty fast especially if there is any turbulence or a radio call. It could go especially fast if you are calling downwind leg. The best thing could be to have a small header tank, maybe a gallon, and put a float sensor on it. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > doug kandle > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 10:14 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Anyone know about an optical fuel sensor? > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" > > > I have the extra tanks in my 701. The only way to use all of > the gas in my tanks is to run one set dry. Since I don't > want my starter motor to become a required piece of hardware > for continued flight, I need to switch tanks after I have > used all the fuel, but before the engine quits. I am > plumbing my fuel lines and I wanted something to tell me that > my fuel tank has run dry. I figure that the gas in my fuel > lines from wing, through gasolator, and to the engine will > keep the fan going long enough for me to switch to my outboard tanks. > > A friend of mine put an optical sensor in his plane. This is > an alert system. (link to aircraft spruce item here > http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/fuelguardian.php) > But this is a complete system, I just want a sensor like this > that I can put in my fuel line at the wing root. If I can > just get a contact closure then I can use my EIS to > annunciate the warning and give me 30 seconds or more to > switch tanks. > Does anyone know where I can get such a sensor with just a > contact closure? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66837#66837 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:50 PM PST US From: xl Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Nose gear bungees --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl I don't want to win a Darwin award - save me from that. I place the sandbags at the root of the elevator, not at the outboard ends. I will not use the sandbags if it will cause damage. I obviously, don't think that placing 120 pounds of sand on the root of the elevator will damage the elevator. I want to know if I'm wrong. Two G steep turns must place more than 120 pounds of apparent weight on the elevator. I agree that in flight the CG is forward of the landing gear and less force is needed to lift the nose. But, on takeoff I tend to pull to lift the nose, the 601XL is nose heavy, and that must take about the same force as lifting the nose at rest - the wheels are still on the ground. The 'weight' on the elevator needed to rotate the nose during takeoff must be close to 120 pounds. The wing is carrying some of the weight, but the engine still must be lifted. I have a structural engineering type friend whom I will ask to do some calculations. I'd like some calculations to show how much apparent weight is on the elevator at takeoff and in a 2G turn. He has examined the wings and has found that the 6G loading design is accurate. Joe E N633Z @ BFI CH601XL 400 hours (and hoping for more) do not archive P.S. I will use O2 above 12,500 feet, I've been to 17,400. On Mon, 9 Oct 2006, Klaus Truemper wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Klaus Truemper > ......snip > The use of sandbags on the horizontal stabilizer to lift the nose gear > is not such a good idea. One might argue that this okay since the > horizontal stabilizer/elevator must lift the nose gear on takeoff. But > when the plane rotates on takeoff, the wings already carry almost all > of the weight of the airplane. Thus, the horizontal stabilizer/elevator > force needed for rotation on takeoff is much, much smaller than the > force needed to lift the nose gear while parked. Cessna some years ago > had failures of the horizontal stabilizer spar of the 152 because > people would push down on the elevevator to lift the nose gear when > parking the plane in a tight spot. > Best wishes, Klaus Truemper