---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/11/06: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:17 AM - Re: GSC propeller and CH701 (Jari Kaija) 2. 01:18 AM - Vs: Re: GSC propeller and CH701 (Jari Kaija) 3. 05:14 AM - Re: Fuel Sensor (Ryan Vechinski) 4. 06:47 AM - Re: Fuel Sensor and misc (John Bolding) 5. 08:32 AM - Re: Seat Belt Attach(was Fuel Sensor and misc) (MacDonald Doug) 6. 09:35 AM - Re: Fuel Sensor () 7. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: Nose gear bungees (Noel Loveys) 8. 09:59 AM - Re: Fuel Sensor (LarryMcFarland) 9. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Weight on the Little wing/Nose gear bungees (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 10. 12:59 PM - Quality of the 601XL horizontal stabilizer tips (Todd Osborne) 11. 01:18 PM - Re: run-on engine? (Klaus Truemper) 12. 01:29 PM - Re: Quality of the 601XL horizontal stabilizer tips (Graham Kirby) 13. 03:42 PM - Re: Quality of the 601XL horizontal stabilizer tips (Tim Juhl) 14. 04:48 PM - Quality of Zenith fiberglass parts (George Swinford) 15. 05:52 PM - Re: Quality of Zenith fiberglass parts (LarryMcFarland) 16. 07:27 PM - Fiberglass parts (George Swinford) 17. 08:16 PM - Re: Fuel Sensor (Noel Loveys) 18. 08:20 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: "Stretched" aluminum (Ron Ellis) 19. 10:07 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: "Stretched" aluminum (JOHN STARN) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: GSC propeller and CH701 From: "Jari Kaija" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" ggower_99(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Is a shame to leave it for decoration only, I am sure that has lots of hours left... :-) Just give a good mantainance... > [Laughing] Do not archive. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67085#67085 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:24 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Vs: Re: GSC propeller and CH701 From: "Jari Kaija" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" Matt Please delete this thread... BBS forum didn't regognice Vs: in subject (= Re-in english) and started new thread.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67086#67086 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:23 AM PST US From: "Ryan Vechinski" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ryan Vechinski" I may be wrong here, and it may not apply to small aircraft, but doesn't fuel in the outboard part of the wings (i.e. tip tanks) actually decrease stress on the wings in turbulence? This is from keeping weight out of the fuselage (wings see less weight) I don't know how this would affect spins, but wouldn't fuel in the outboard wing at least keep the rotation slower? -Ryan ----Original Message Follows---- From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith Optical/visual/mechanical/whatever.....my first impression is that I would USE the OUTBOARD fuel first. The only good reason I can come up with at the moment is for structrual considerations. Sure seems that the location of the mass of the fuel needs to be as near the wing root as possible; therefore emptying the outboard tanks leaves those inboard full and closer to centerline of the aircraft. Maybe some FE will inject a discourse on fuel management. Remember.....in the old WWII movies they always dropped the tip tanks. Regards to all fans of Scotch Brite Pads, Zed/701/R912/90++%/etc/do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:49 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor and misc One of the reasons that the 701 was able to go to the higher gross weight was the removal of the fuselage tank and use of wing tanks which takes the bending loads off the spar. As fuel (or any weight for that matter)is moved outboard you have to become increasingly aware of the moment of inertia of that fuel as it relates to spin recovery. As long as we are talking about design here someone mentioned a few days ago that the only thing jury struts did was to prevent the struts from vibrating. Actually the PRIMARY function of the jury struts is to support the struts in mid span from negative loads. Tubes are a LOT stronger in tension than compression, the aero designers I get to hang out with use the term "long column bending load" when figuring the tube size and jury strut location. Below is an excerpt from a Yahoo site for 701 builders, seems like another seat belt attach fitting has pulled loose, imagine that, I'm sure he didn't have the doubler as it happened a while back but the "doubler" is dubious at best in my mind . I have a 2000# strain gauge and I think I'll fab up a test panel with and without the doubler just for fun. "FWIW I was having a conversation with a guy at the Rocky Mountain Regional FlyIn this summer who said there was a guy in his EAA Chapter who put his 701 down in a field, hit a ditch, and the seatbelt anchor, built to plans, pulled out and he went into the panel. This guy's view was the anchor was inadequately engineered." If anyone knows this fellow please contact me and I'll get as many pertinent facts as I can. LOW&SLOW John Bolding ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Vechinski To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:12 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ryan Vechinski" I may be wrong here, and it may not apply to small aircraft, but doesn't fuel in the outboard part of the wings (i.e. tip tanks) actually decrease stress on the wings in turbulence? This is from keeping weight out of the fuselage (wings see less weight) I don't know how this would affect spins, but wouldn't fuel in the outboard wing at least keep the rotation slower? -Ryan ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:24 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Seat Belt Attach(was Fuel Sensor and misc) --> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug Damn, John, you are really digging into this seat belt attach thing. Keep up the good work. I'd be interested in hearing the differences between the doubler and no doubler. Doug MacDonald NW Ontario, Canada CH-701 Scratch builder working on cabin assy (seat belts soon) __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:10 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor --> Zenith-List message posted by: The farther out on the wing any weight (fuel, for instance) is located, the more energy it takes to make it move or change its motion. The important factor is moving mass farther from the center of mass and applies to moving weight farther forward or farther aft of the CG as well. Therefore moving weight to a position farther out on the wing should make the plane more sluggish in the roll and yaw axes. Also, any established movement around the CG in those axes (such as a spin) will require more control force to stop and/or reverse it. As someone else noted, it would be a great idea to burn that outboard fuel first or leave it on the ground for short flights. Ed Moody II ---- Ryan Vechinski wrote: > > I may be wrong here, and it may not apply to small aircraft, but doesn't > fuel in the outboard part of the wings (i.e. tip tanks) actually decrease > stress on the wings in turbulence? This is from keeping weight out of the > fuselage (wings see less weight) > > I don't know how this would affect spins, but wouldn't fuel in the outboard > wing at least keep the rotation slower? > > -Ryan ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:02 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Nose gear bungees --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" You could also make a rope saddle to fit over the fuselage in front of the vertical stab. Put your weight on both sides. Use plenty of weight, no sense in having it flop forward because some one dropped a feather on the nose. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xl > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 3:42 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Nose gear bungees > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl > > > Yes, I meant the stabilizer. I'm told it takes 2 - 60 pound > concrete blocks for a Piper TriPacer. > > Joe E > N633Z @ BFI > CH601XL 400 hours > do not archive > > > On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 JERICKSON03E@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/10/2006 1:56:25 AM Central Daylight Time, > > xl@prosody.org writes: > > 'I place the sandbags at the root of the elevator,' > > Joe, Are you sure that you meant the elevator? Or was it > the horizontal > > stabilizer? > > I would avoid placing any weight on the elevator, or any of > the movable > > control surfaces. > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:39 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Ryan, You're correct, in your assumption about tip tanks reducing stresses in turbulence, but to a greater degree, the full tip tanks would reduce rate of change for any maneuver. It might prevent you from getting the correction needed in a spin or even an awkward landing in the critical moments that count. There would be a period where you have to learn what reactions you have when empty averse full. That could be too long a time to avoid a seriously compromised event. I'd be reluctant to put tip tanks on a small aircraft for the same reasons. That's also why you see them on heavier aircraft where tip tanks are a much smaller percentage of total weight. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Ryan Vechinski wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ryan Vechinski" > > > I may be wrong here, and it may not apply to small aircraft, but > doesn't fuel in the outboard part of the wings (i.e. tip tanks) > actually decrease stress on the wings in turbulence? This is from > keeping weight out of the fuselage (wings see less weight) > > I don't know how this would affect spins, but wouldn't fuel in the > outboard wing at least keep the rotation slower? > > -Ryan ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:38 AM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Weight on the Little wing/Nose gear bungees In a message dated 10/10/2006 9:09:45 AM Central Daylight Time, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com writes: I will be happy to send you a photo of the tilt stand I built in about 30 minutes that would be an alternative option. Let me know, Best regards, Bill of Georgia Bill, I would like to see the tilt stand please. Jerry ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:23 PM PST US From: Todd Osborne Subject: Zenith-List: Quality of the 601XL horizontal stabilizer tips --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne I was looking today at the fiberglass tips for the horizontal stab and test fitting them. The edges are way off from the factory, not even close to straight. In fact, when I lay it on the table, there is 3/4" inch warp in them, meaning some rivets are not going to hit anything. Are these bad from the factory, or do I have to somehow trim them to be straight? Todd Osborne EMail: todd@toddtown.com Web: www.toddtown.com Yahoo Messenger: toddmosborne@yahoo.com MSN Messenger: todd@toddtown.com Skype: toddmosborne ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:08 PM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Re: run-on engine? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Klaus Truemper Hi, The run-on effect can become a nasty problem if not treated promptly, due to the violent shaking of the engine before it finally stops. The suggested cure, tightening of the bolt holding the grounding wires of the ignition module, is a good idea. But the tightening may just scratch the surfaces of the connectors a bit, thus re-establishing the desired grounding. But this may fail again within a few weeks due to additional corrosion. Rotax Canada suggested years ago a permanent fix. The idea is to remove the bolt, clean the grounding connectors and bolt carefully, and then reinstall everything with insulating silicon grease. It may sound odd that insulating grease is used. But this works, since it keeps out the moisture. There is also a silicon grease that conducts. That type should NOT be used. As for my case, even with the silicon grease, the problem kept on coming up. Eventually I installed a separate grounding wire that connects the bolt of the grounding wires with the firewall. That really solved the problem. Best wishes, Klaus -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:49 PM PST US From: "Graham Kirby" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Quality of the 601XL horizontal stabilizer tips --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" Todd, You're not the first to have this problem. I made a simple softwood form that went inside the tip. Heated it up with a heat gun, and when it cooled down I removed the form and and it matched the correct profile. Graham Kirby 601HD I was looking today at the fiberglass tips for the horizontal stab and test fitting them. The edges are way off from the factory, not even close to straight. In fact, when I lay it on the table, there is 3/4" inch warp in them, meaning some rivets are not going to hit anything. Are these bad from the factory, or do I have to somehow trim them to be straight? ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Quality of the 601XL horizontal stabilizer tips From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" I had the same issue and did what Graham recommended. Be careful with the heat gun.... when you start to smell fiberglass it is probably hot enough. In general the fiberglass pieces from ZAC are a poor fit. They don't make them in house but it would be nice if they found another supplier. Tim Juhl Do not archive -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67225#67225 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:00 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Quality of Zenith fiberglass parts Does anyone know which resin those parts are made with? I have been told that parts laid up with polyester resins are less dimensionally stable than those using epoxy. The "bumps" supplied for my Stratus engine cowl certainly didn't match the contour of the basic cowl. I had to cut the whole flange away, and the large bump still wasn't usable. I made a plywood nose rib segment to fit inside my stabilizer tips and used a heat gun to soften them until I could force the rib segments into place. When things cooled down the fit was good. I then discarded the plywood pieces. I suppose that I could have epoxied them into place to be sure that the contour stayed the same. George Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:08 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Quality of Zenith fiberglass parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland George, The Zenith Stratus cowling is polyester resin product. I don't think you've got a problem with polyester resin. I removed the segment for the bump and reduced the size of the bump provided by doing a layup over a smaller template. It went on fine and was reinforced by doubling the inside area and the narrow outside seam. No problems so far. I used a fiberglass cloth and resin from the local Farm and Fleet. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowlcheekinstall.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/leftcheekclearance.gif Only needed to worry about the left side being close. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive George Swinford wrote: > Does anyone know which resin those parts are made with? I have been > told that parts laid up with polyester resins are less dimensionally > stable than those using epoxy. The "bumps" supplied for my Stratus > engine cowl certainly didn't match the contour of the basic cowl. I > had to cut the whole flange away, and the large bump still wasn't usable. > > George > > Do not archive > >* >* > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:07 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Fiberglass parts Unfortunately for me, I cut too large an opening for the bottom bump. I'm currently making a male plug to lay up a somewhat larger bump. I'm using Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty to seal a styrofoam plug. I don't recommend Durham's for this purpose. It's too hard. I've actually filed some of it. Learning is supposed to be part of the process, isn't it? George Do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" It probably won't affect the speed of the spin, after all the fuel is in the tanks at the start of the spin, but the inertia of having that heavy fuel that far from the CG could be interesting. Weight any where in the wings is easier on the fuselage and wing attach points than having fuel in the fuse itself. The wings after all have to carry the fuse not the other way around. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Ryan Vechinski > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:42 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ryan Vechinski" > > > I may be wrong here, and it may not apply to small aircraft, > but doesn't > fuel in the outboard part of the wings (i.e. tip tanks) > actually decrease > stress on the wings in turbulence? This is from keeping > weight out of the > fuselage (wings see less weight) > > I don't know how this would affect spins, but wouldn't fuel > in the outboard > wing at least keep the rotation slower? > > -Ryan > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Zed Smith > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sensor > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:03:46 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith > > Optical/visual/mechanical/whatever.....my first impression is > that I would > USE the OUTBOARD fuel first. > > The only good reason I can come up with at the moment is for > structrual > considerations. > > Sure seems that the location of the mass of the fuel needs to > be as near the > wing root as possible; therefore > emptying the outboard tanks leaves those inboard full and closer to > centerline of the aircraft. > > Maybe some FE will inject a discourse on fuel management. > Remember.....in the old WWII movies they always dropped the tip tanks. > > Regards to all fans of Scotch Brite Pads, > > Zed/701/R912/90++%/etc/do not archive > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:17 PM PST US From: Ron Ellis Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: "Stretched" aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Ellis Never tried the spoon trick...don't think I have that much patience, however, a nickel placed on a train track works great! do not archive >Hammer? Did you ever make a ring out of a nickel by >tapping on it w/ a tea >spoon? Takes patience but you end up w/ a finely >finished ring. Same w/ >stretching aluminum! do not archive >Aaron __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:47 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: "Stretched" aluminum --> Zenith-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Never tried that one, BUT would you not wind up with at least two spoons with holes in them also ?. Makes it tough to eat soup with a "holy" spoon. KABONG 8*) Do Not Archive....All in fun guys.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Ellis" Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:18 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: "Stretched" aluminum > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron Ellis > > > Never tried the spoon trick...don't think I have that > much patience, however, a nickel placed on a train > track works great! > > do not archive > >>Hammer? Did you ever make a ring out of a nickel by >>tapping on it w/ a tea >>spoon? Takes patience but you end up w/ a finely >>finished ring. Same w/ >>stretching aluminum! do not archive