Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:57 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (Clyde Barcus)
2. 07:19 AM - Re: Zodiac XL 601 with special nose wheel? (Bryan Martin)
3. 07:56 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (LarryMcFarland)
4. 08:06 AM - (no subject) (Trainnut01@aol.com)
5. 08:21 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (Rosalie DeMeo)
6. 08:23 AM - Re: (no subject) (Graham Kirby)
7. 08:32 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (Craig Payne)
8. 08:35 AM - Tow Bar (Robert L. Stone)
9. 08:58 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (Dave G.)
10. 09:44 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (Craig Payne)
11. 10:19 AM - Design and Engineering Philosophy (Paul Mulwitz)
12. 10:55 AM - Re: Tow Bar (george may)
13. 11:37 AM - Trailering The CH701 (Chris Wolf)
14. 11:53 AM - Re: Tow Bar (Robert L. Stone)
15. 11:58 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (Terry Phillips)
16. 01:04 PM - Re: Tow Bar (LarryMcFarland)
17. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (kevinbonds)
18. 01:22 PM - Re: Tow Bar (george may)
19. 01:55 PM - Re: Tow Bar (Craig Payne)
20. 02:55 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Steve Hulland)
21. 02:58 PM - Re: Tow Bar (LarryMcFarland)
22. 03:51 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Chris Wolf)
23. 05:15 PM - Re: Design and Engineering Philosophy (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
24. 05:39 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Steve Hulland)
25. 06:19 PM - Zodiac XL 601 with special nose wheel? (Robin Bellach)
26. 06:27 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Robert L. Stone)
27. 06:49 PM - Re: (no subject) (leinad)
28. 07:12 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Steve Hulland)
29. 08:18 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Robert L. Stone)
30. 10:04 PM - Re: Tow Bar (Gary Gower)
31. 10:26 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clyde Barcus" <barcusc@comcast.net>
Mark has a very good point! To alter another persons design and call it
yours shows a complete lack of ethics. No integrity period! Why anyone would
trust people like this is beyond me, if they had the ability to design a
plane from scratch they wouldn't have to copy someone else's product.
Clyde
601XL
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A special Zodiac XL 601
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman"
> <pacificpainting@comcast.net>
>
> OK Mark, now take a deep breath and go to your special place.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:05 PM
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A special Zodiac XL 601
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> A philosophical question is if it is still a 601XL.
>>
>> The answer is NO in no way is this a 601 of any model, though it was
>> built using Chris Heintz's plans it has been modified so heavily that
>> complete testing needs to be done to ensure structural engineering. The
>> wings have been altered so will they create the same amount of lift? The
>> amount of fiberglass and modifications has surly increased it's empty
>> weight so will they up the gross weight to make it a two person plane
>> and will they do the testing to ensure that the wings will stand the
>> load? I must admit this is the first modified gull wing configuration I
>> liked, but is this going to be an easier plane to build? Not bloody
>> likely! It will probably fly faster , not be as stable and build time is
>> out the window for the average builder. Is it a Zenith 601XL? NO it is
>> another company ripping off the Chris Heintz designs for there own
>> profit, and though it is too hard to stop this practice from happening
>> it really does piss me off! If they wanted to sell 601XL's in Brazil
>> likely, all they had to do was build one exactly as the plans stated.
>> Same thing happened to another 2 companies that were Zenith Distributors
>> they couldn't adhere to the designers drawings, so they are no longer a
>> Zenair Distributor but seem to have a plane that uses a lot of the
>> Zenith parts and looks quite similar. Did I say this shit really pisses
>> me off! Man I'm pissed! Bend over Chris your getting the shaft again!
>>
>> Now if someone was to do this for themselves I would be all for it and
>> even offer advice and idea's. But this plane is intended for mass
>> sale!!! With a balls to still call it a Zodiac 601XL!!! I have to go to
>> take a blood pressure pill!!!
>>
>> Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
>> Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, 801 C-FHUC almost finished
>> www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 10/13/2006
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac XL 601 with special nose wheel? |
That nose wheel fork could be a problem. Having the steering pivot
behind the point of contact with the ground is not a stable
configuration. High speed taxiing could get interesting.
Pulling it around on the ground will be tricky without a tow bar
because the nose wheel won't caster properly.
On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:51 PM, Robin Bellach wrote:
> Me too. And ditto for the wing tips. But what's with the seemingly
> reversed nose wheel fork?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kevinbonds
>
> I love the canopy design. I like the look better than the bubble.
>
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:52 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: A special Zodiac XL 601
>
> Here is my Special Zodiac XL 601.
>
> The first flight will be October 31.
>
> www.airfox.com.br
>
> Roberto Brito.
>
> S=E3o Paulo - Brasil.
>
> Zodiac Xl 601 Plans.
>
> Jab 3300
>
> Enigma.
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Mark,
Very valid points, but I have less confidence that a 601 modified to wet
tanks between spars
and flush rivets is going to be problem free. It is a borrowed design
with heavier components
and features that would be better incorporated from design and materials
for an RV. The appearance
is as pleasing as a custom car, but you're completely right if this is
to be a re-sold design. I don't think
this will be a commercial success because borrowed designs often don't
have the engineering available
to get the job done. Cross pollination of light plane to heavy plane is
risky to say the least.
Be interesting to see how it all falls out, so to speak.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Zodie Rocket wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>
>-----Original Message-----
> A philosophical question is if it is still a 601XL.
>
> If they wanted to sell 601XL's in Brazil
>likely, all they had to do was build one exactly as the plans stated.
>Same thing happened to another 2 companies that were Zenith Distributors
>they couldn't adhere to the designers drawings, so they are no longer a
>Zenair Distributor but seem to have a plane that uses a lot of the
>Zenith parts and looks quite similar.
>Now if someone was to do this for themselves I would be all for it and
>even offer advice and idea's. But this plane is intended for mass
>sale!!! With a balls to still call it a Zodiac 601XL!!!
>
>I have to go to take a blood pressure pill!!!
>
>Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
>Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, 801 C-FHUC almost finished
>www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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To the list: What adhesives have been used successfully to bond the cork
strips to the tanks in the XL?
Thanks
Carroll Jernigan
601 XL Wings
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rosalie DeMeo <rosestar@sonic.net>
After reading the emails in response to this post, I tend to agree.
After getting past the beauty of the mods and learning that the model is
intended for mass sale, I too, am concerned. For a sole homebuilder
such mods would seem to fall under "experimental" for personal
experience and learning. However, using a proven platform to modify
and, without testing, sell the plans or a kit for the same is not
ethical and endangers the lives of others. And...this is a BIG mod!
You can't lower the wings on a Cessna...this ain't a SoCal chop shop.
Brad
Message 6
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Carroll
I used "3M Super 77 spray adhesive". Its a contact adhesive and comes
in an
aerosol. Be sure to degrease the tank surface first.
Graham Kirby
601HD
-----Original Message-----
To the list: What adhesives have been used successfully to bond the cork
strips to the tanks in the XL?
Thanks
Carroll Jernigan
601 XL Wings
Message 7
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| Subject: | A special Zodiac XL 601 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>> To alter another persons design and call it yours shows a complete lack
of ethics.
Hmm, the site says "Zodiac XL 601" all over it. And specifically mentions
Chris Heintz's name.
-- Craig
Message 8
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Members,
Does anyone know where to get a tow bar for a ZodiacXL? If not, is
there anyone on the net that has the facilities to make one up for a
reasonable price of course?
This question is for those of you who have finished their ZodiacXL.
Is the finished aircraft light enough for one to push down on the tail
and move it around that way?
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
Wouldn't it be nice to see the Zenith people themselves weigh in on this.
Everything I see here is just speculation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A special Zodiac XL 601
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>>> To alter another persons design and call it yours shows a complete lack
> of ethics.
>
> Hmm, the site says "Zodiac XL 601" all over it. And specifically mentions
> Chris Heintz's name.
>
> -- Craig
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | A special Zodiac XL 601 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
No, no, no - this is the Internet. We live for this sort of thing ;-)
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G.
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A special Zodiac XL 601
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
Wouldn't it be nice to see the Zenith people themselves weigh in on this.
Everything I see here is just speculation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A special Zodiac XL 601
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>>> To alter another persons design and call it yours shows a complete lack
> of ethics.
>
> Hmm, the site says "Zodiac XL 601" all over it. And specifically mentions
> Chris Heintz's name.
>
> -- Craig
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Design and Engineering Philosophy |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
I think a number of listers have been overly harsh toward Roberto and
his plane.
What he has done is apply some "Yankee Ingenuity" to the plans he
purchased for the Zodiac XL and scratch built his own plane. He used
materials easily available in his country where 6061-T6 wasn't
available. I suppose his work was very well done and he takes great
pride in his results - which I feel he deserves.
I don't agree with those who say he has done something wrong by
altering the XL design. This is extremely common practice in the
engineering design world. While this practice might be considered
unethical in academic circles it is considered "High Praise" in the
engineering community. The truth is that most designs are copies of
another engineer's work. Engineering is not about reinventing the
wheel every time you want to build a new wheel barrel. It is about
copying previous designs with modifications to fit the current goals.
I suppose there is a problem calling his plane a Chris Heintz Zodiac
XL. Perhaps Roberto should consider calling it a new name. Since he
has created a new design it makes sense to call it something new.
Will the new plane fly well? Will it be a commercial success? Will
it turn Brazil into a nation of pilots? Probably not. Does this
mean Roberto's efforts are a failure? Definitely not. He has done
the same kind of creative work done by many engineers before him.
Before criticizing Roberto for copying C. Heintz's work, it would
make sense to take a close look at what Chris actually did. He did
not invent the airplane. He didn't invent all metal construction,
tricycle landing gear, low wing monoplane configuration, or much of
anything else. I think he did invent the notion of using a metal
skin as an aileron hinge. Even this little creation has caused great
conversation and emotional stress among his admirers. What Chris did
do was create a design focused on first time builders which is
relatively easy to build and produces a light and good performing
plane with docile behavior. This is a great accomplishment and Chris
deserves to be called one of the greatest small plane designers in
all human history.
I personally commend Roberto for his work. I think we could all use
this as a lesson in ingenuity and think of him as a brave and creative person.
Paul
XL fuselage
Retired Engineer.
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
Bob--
The finished aircraft is light enough to pull/push around by the prop. I
do it all the time. I wouldn't push down on the rear end anywhere since it
is only .016 aluminum. Even with this being said I do plan to fabricate a
tow bar eventually-----------
George May
601 XL 912s
>From: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Tow Bar
>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:34:39 -0500
>
>Members,
> Does anyone know where to get a tow bar for a ZodiacXL? If not, is
>there anyone on the net that has the facilities to make one up for a
>reasonable price of course?
> This question is for those of you who have finished their ZodiacXL.
>Is the finished aircraft light enough for one to push down on the tail and
>move it around that way?
>
>Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>ZodiacXL
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Trailering The CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris Wolf <cwolf41@comcast.net>
I'm interested in doing extended trailering of a Zenith 701.
I've been flying for many years, and I'm currently part owner of a Cessna
182. I also own a recreational vehicle which I love to travel in, around
the country. But what I would really enjoy, is an airplane that I could
tow on a trailer behind my RV, stopping and flying wherever the scenery
looks interesting. RVs seem to be towing every other kind of recreational
vehicle, these days, so why not an airplane?
Obviously such an aircraft would have to have folding wings, which is why
I've been looking at the Zenith 701. I took the rudder building workshop
for the 701, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think I would enjoy building the
701. I also took a ride in the 701, and was quite impressed with its
performance.
I've seen pictures at the Zenith web site of a 701 on trailers. One plane
was even being towed behind an RV, so it looks like I'm not the first guy
to get the idea.
But is the 701 really suited for extensive trailering? That folding wing
design looks like it was more intended to reduce hangar space, rather than
designed for zooming down the highway at 70 mph. Those folding wings
constitute a large, flat surface of metal, high in the air. How much side
gusting of wind could the plane endure before it was damaged, or worse yet,
caused the trailer to flip over?
It's my understanding that the folded wings are only secured by a single
pivot bolt at the front, and slots in a plywood saddle at the back. Is
this really enough to secure the wings for extended highway travel?
I talked to Michael Heintz at Quality Sport Planes, in Cloverdale,
California, last week, while I was taking the rudder building workshop. He
said for extended trailering, the best method would be to remove the wings
entirely, and strap them to the bed of the trailer. Then trailering would
be fine.
Does anyone have any experience with extended trailering of the 701? If
so, I would sure like to talk to you!
I like the 701 very much. However I'm also looking at a Kolb Mark III
Xtra. It seems like Kolb planes get trailered quite a bit, while the 701
does not. Perhaps there is a good reason? The Kolb factory says their
aircraft was designed for folding and trailering, and the folded plane does
seem to look more solid and compact than the 701. I also like the fact
that the Kolb does not use a wet wing, so unlike the Zenith, there is no
need to drain the fuel before folding the wings.
If anyone has any suggestions or advice on this topic, I'd sure appreciate
hearing from you. Thanks!
Chris Wolf
cwolf41@comcast.net
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
George,
I am in central Texas, where are you?
Bob Stone
----- Original Message -----
From: "george may" <gfmjr_20@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tow Bar
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
>
> Bob--
> The finished aircraft is light enough to pull/push around by the prop.
> I do it all the time. I wouldn't push down on the rear end anywhere since
> it is only .016 aluminum. Even with this being said I do plan to
> fabricate a tow bar eventually-----------
>
> George May
> 601 XL 912s
>
>
>>From: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
>>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Zenith-List: Tow Bar
>>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:34:39 -0500
>>
>>Members,
>> Does anyone know where to get a tow bar for a ZodiacXL? If not, is
>> there anyone on the net that has the facilities to make one up for a
>> reasonable price of course?
>> This question is for those of you who have finished their ZodiacXL.
>> Is the finished aircraft light enough for one to push down on the tail
>> and move it around that way?
>>
>>Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>>ZodiacXL
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 |
"the Zenith people" are already on the record on this subject. See their
web page:
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo-copies.html
where they state:
NON-CONFORMING COPIES
By Gabriel Gavard
"Chris Heintz and sons, designers and manufacturers of the Zodiac CH 601
and STOL CH701 series of aircraft (built from plans only, from partial or
from complete kits by homebuilders), are getting less tolerant of
supposedly "improved" pirated copies of their designs. Zenith Aircrafts
internet homepage recently added a new link identifying rebel copies of
their aircrafts originating from Brazil, Poland and Italy. The company has
been sending updates and cautionary notices to the aviation press on a
regular basis regarding these "new" machines, clearly derived from the CH
701 or CH 601, clearly unauthorized.
"The principle cause spurring the spread of these copies on the new
light-plane market is not just the undeniable success of these two designs
now commonly registered as ultralights in many countries. A prime
contributing factor has been the availability of complete blue-prints and
assembly manuals for all components aircraft in question from Zenith
Aircraft. This intentional move by Chris Heintz has allowed hundreds of
aviation enthusiasts around the world to build and fly their own aircraft,
on a budget.
"Making these construction plans available, while not profitable, was a
generous move by Heintz in "the spirit of homebuilding". It is also having
dire commercial repercussions: The designers gesture has now been
dishonored and misused by a number of unscrupulous manufacturers who, by
their very actions, attest to their own inability to conceive and engineer
their original aircraft. Naturally, each of these nevertheless had the
expertise to then "improve" on the original design.
"The motivation for the modifications has been varied: Changes to avoid
"copyright" infringements; advanced or complete assemblies to meet market
demands (ready-to-fly, custom modifications, etc.); and "improved"
performances, often sadly based on strokes of ingenious intuition by novice
builders not yet fully aware that every airplane is a sum of compromises&
"Chris Heintz engineers his airplanes to well-known stringent standards.
Every component and flight characteristic is conceived to work in harmony
with the whole from the outset. The wings, fuselage and tail; the controls,
the cabin and the rest form that whole which can be appreciated in its
entirety. Modify just one, let alone several, of these elements without
reviewing the whole and clearly, the machine as a unit will have been tainted&"
* R & D: Research and Development, but also sometimes known as Rip-off and
Duplicate.
I agree that anyone building an experimental may make changes, at his or
her own risk. But to make a commercial copy of a Chris Heintz design is
dishonest and unethical. I hope that the Brazilians will not go forward
with their copycat design. If they want to sell a kit, they should design
one and sell it.
Terry
At 12:57 PM 10/14/2006 -0300, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave G." <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
>
>Wouldn't it be nice to see the Zenith people themselves weigh in on this.
>Everything I see here is just speculation.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:32 PM
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: A special Zodiac XL 601
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>>
>>>>To alter another persons design and call it yours shows a complete lack
>>of ethics.
>>
>>Hmm, the site says "Zodiac XL 601" all over it. And specifically mentions
>>Chris Heintz's name.
>>
>>-- Craig
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Bob,
I made a tow bar, steering link and travel stop for the front gear
strut. I make up the steering link travel stop shown in the drawing
for $50. and you make up the tow bar seen laying near the nose gear
third picture link. I'm painting right now, but about December
or January, I'll be making half a dozen of the link-stops. If you're
interested, let me know. Do not send any money until I can say
I've got one ready for you though.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-and-stear-link.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travelstop.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/winter601four.gif
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Robert L. Stone wrote:
> Members,
> Does anyone know where to get a tow bar for a ZodiacXL? If not,
> is there anyone on the net that has the facilities to make one up for
> a reasonable price of course?
> This question is for those of you who have finished their
> ZodiacXL. Is the finished aircraft light enough for one to push down
> on the tail and move it around that way?
>
> Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
> ZodiacXL
>
>*
>*
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>
Like Rosalie I was initially mesmerized by beauty of the mods. After getting
it, I too am concerned. The worst offense I noticed, after reading the
translation, is the statement about 1000's of these already flying. I think
we all know the danger in this statement. This is NOT a tested design. It is
totally irresponsible to suggest otherwise.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.
Empennage done; working on wings and engine.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rosalie DeMeo
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A special Zodiac XL 601
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rosalie DeMeo <rosestar@sonic.net>
After reading the emails in response to this post, I tend to agree.
After getting past the beauty of the mods and learning that the model is
intended for mass sale, I too, am concerned. For a sole homebuilder
such mods would seem to fall under "experimental" for personal
experience and learning. However, using a proven platform to modify
and, without testing, sell the plans or a kit for the same is not
ethical and endangers the lives of others. And...this is a BIG mod!
You can't lower the wings on a Cessna...this ain't a SoCal chop shop.
Brad
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
Kingston ,New Hampshire
Do not archive
>From: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tow Bar
>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:50:17 -0500
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
>
>George,
> I am in central Texas, where are you?
>
>Bob Stone
>----- Original Message ----- From: "george may" <gfmjr_20@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:54 PM
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tow Bar
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
>>
>>Bob--
>> The finished aircraft is light enough to pull/push around by the prop.
>>I do it all the time. I wouldn't push down on the rear end anywhere since
>>it is only .016 aluminum. Even with this being said I do plan to
>>fabricate a tow bar eventually-----------
>>
>>George May
>>601 XL 912s
>>
>>
>>>From: "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4@hot.rr.com>
>>>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: Zenith-List: Tow Bar
>>>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:34:39 -0500
>>>
>>>Members,
>>> Does anyone know where to get a tow bar for a ZodiacXL? If not, is
>>>there anyone on the net that has the facilities to make one up for a
>>>reasonable price of course?
>>> This question is for those of you who have finished their ZodiacXL.
>>>Is the finished aircraft light enough for one to push down on the tail
>>>and move it around that way?
>>>
>>>Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>>>ZodiacXL
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 19
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Larry, do you think the stop ring is needed? Zenith apparently does because
I think the current kits have one (see attached picture). My antique
doesn't.
-- Craig
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering The CH701 |
Chris,
If I were to build a 701 and then take it with me and the RV for extended
trips, I would use an enclosed trailer. The wings come off easily and stores
under the fuselage on the floor of the trailer without any problem.
Having recently sold a 701 airframe, I know this can be done because the
person who bought it drove down with a trailer and took it home. His trailer
was not long enough to enclose the entire tail, so he built a special rear
door that allowed the tail to stick out when closed - sorta like those extra
openings for rudders that you see in hangars designed for really big
airplanes. A slightly longer trailer would have allowed him to enclose the
entire airplane - and it was very easy to put inside.
Trailering this way would be much safer than any other, not matter what type
airplane - that is why they do this with sailplanes.
Have flown both airplanes and enjoy the 701 more than the Kolb - just
personal prefrence as both are very good airplanes.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
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Message 21
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Craig,
If you break a bungee, and don't have a stop ring of some sort, the
cowl, muffler, and whatever that
contacts the fork is likely to suffer more damage than with it. The
ring shown here is likely adequate,
but not removable or adjustable. I think you'd be wise to have one in
any case.
Larry McFarland
do not archive
Craig Payne wrote:
>Larry, do you think the stop ring is needed? Zenith apparently does because
>I think the current kits have one (see attached picture). My antique
>doesn't.
>
>-- Craig
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering The CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris Wolf <cwolf41@comcast.net>
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:53:32 -0700, Steve Hulland wrote:
>Chris,
>If I were to build a 701 and then take it with me and the RV for extended
>trips, I would use an enclosed trailer. The wings come off easily and stores
>under the fuselage on the floor of the trailer without any problem.
Yeah, that's probably the best idea. I figured I could even build a couple
of form-fitting little cubbyholes, lined with carpet, and just slide the
wings in.
I suppose if you're going to trailer the plane on an open trailer, the Kolb
is probably best, since it has a much lower profile, and wouldn't be as
affected by the wind. But as you say, it's probably best to use an
enclosed trailer, no matter what kind of plane you're hauling. Open
trailers just expose the plane to a lot of risks.
It would take less enclosed trailer for the Kolb, since it's just a little
over five feet tall, with the wings folded. The 701 is about 8.5 feet tall
with the wings folded.
Also, I wouldn't have to drain the fuel from the wings, with the Kolb. But
I do like the 701!
Only problem with an enclosed trailer, is theft. The thieves don't know
what's inside, so they just grab it and run. An acquaintance of mine had
his trailer and plane stolen. He literally ended up in a remote forest, in
the middle of the night, leaving ransom money. He got his stuff back.
I think I'll paint MANURE HAULING, or DEAD ANIMALS REMOVED on the side of
my trailer, in great big letters. Or maybe MORTUARY SERVICE - BODIES
TRANSPORTED.
>Having recently sold a 701 airframe, I know this can be done because the
>person who bought it drove down with a trailer and took it home. His trailer
>was not long enough to enclose the entire tail, so he built a special rear
>door that allowed the tail to stick out when closed - sorta like those extra
>openings for rudders that you see in hangars designed for really big
>airplanes. A slightly longer trailer would have allowed him to enclose the
>entire airplane - and it was very easy to put inside.
Clever!
>Trailering this way would be much safer than any other, not matter what type
>airplane - that is why they do this with sailplanes.
Yeah, I noticed that last week, watching a glider land, and pack up. Off
comes the wings, and everything gets slipped inside a long, skinny trailer.
I have a local, custom trailer company that can make me whatever I need.
>Have flown both airplanes and enjoy the 701 more than the Kolb - just
>personal prefrence as both are very good airplanes.
Shucks, I was hoping you could help me break the tie! ;-)
Thanks for the feedback!
Chris Wolf
cwolf41@comcast.net
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Design and Engineering Philosophy |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ihab.awad@gmail.com
On 10/14/06, Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> What he has done is apply some "Yankee Ingenuity" to the plans he
> purchased for the Zodiac XL and scratch built his own plane.
To some extent, I agree. In fact, his use of the Zodiac name could be
considered a sign of humility: he gave due credit to the original
designer.
My personal choice would have been to give it a new name and simply
acknowledge the basis in someone else's design, just to avoid brand
confusion....
If he's planning to commercialize this work, I think it would be a
different issue. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal
advice. That said, I suspect it boils down to legal hair splitting. If
you reverse engineer a built item, you are probably in the clear so
long as you don't violate patent. However, if you create a derivative
work of the plans, you probably violated copyright. I don't know
whether it's a derivative work if you copy down the dimensions, rib
form coordinates, etc. from the plans, enter them into your CAD
package, and press Print to generate a new set of plans. Plus, the
vagaries of copyright in the different jurisdictions may make things
even more messy.
Just my 2 cents' worth....
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering The CH701 |
Chris,
I have an enclosed utility trailer. I lock the safety chains to my vehicle
and they are firmly attached (plus lock) to the tounge. I also use another
lock as the safety pin that holds the ball hitch lever in the down position.
Finally, if on a trip that requires the trailer to be at a motel, etc. I
take a tire boot and lock one of the tires. Takes a couple of extra minutes
to hook things up, but I have never lost the trailer - or any other.
Also have a small 1/4 ton ex-USMC utility trailer with a pintal hitch. Lock
the safety chains, but don't worry about the hitch part - most people do not
have a pintel and cannot steal it.
Last resort, if I see them stealing it, I simply shoot. Seems to work well.
Ha!
DO Not Archive
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
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Message 25
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| Subject: | Zodiac XL 601 with special nose wheel? |
That's what I thought. So does anyone have a clue as to why he has it
backwards, or is this an indication that his modified copycat is nothing
but an accident waiting to happen?
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Martin
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL 601 with special nose wheel?
That nose wheel fork could be a problem. Having the steering pivot
behind the point of contact with the ground is not a stable
configuration. High speed taxiing could get interesting.
Pulling it around on the ground will be tricky without a tow bar
because the nose wheel won't caster properly.
On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:51 PM, Robin Bellach wrote:
Me too. And ditto for the wing tips. But what's with the seemingly
reversed nose wheel fork?
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering The CH701 |
Hay Steve,
When you catch a thief trying to steal your goods, you should use a
bow & arrow, cross-bow, or a blowgun w/poison darts, then no one can
hear anything when you kill the bastard.
Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
ZodiacXL
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Hulland
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701
Chris,
I have an enclosed utility trailer. I lock the safety chains to my
vehicle and they are firmly attached (plus lock) to the tounge. I also
use another lock as the safety pin that holds the ball hitch lever in
the down position. Finally, if on a trip that requires the trailer to be
at a motel, etc. I take a tire boot and lock one of the tires. Takes a
couple of extra minutes to hook things up, but I have never lost the
trailer - or any other.
Also have a small 1/4 ton ex-USMC utility trailer with a pintal hitch.
Lock the safety chains, but don't worry about the hitch part - most
people do not have a pintel and cannot steal it.
Last resort, if I see them stealing it, I simply shoot. Seems to work
well. Ha!
DO Not Archive
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies
scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "leinad" <leinad@hughes.net>
Carroll,
I purchased self adhesive cork strips from McMaster Carr. I believe this is what
the plans call for.
Dan
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67871#67871
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering The CH701 |
Bob,
Yep, the bow and arrow, etc. would work well. Where is Harker Heights, TX? I
was in Corpus Christi with my wife from the 3rd until the 9th of this month.
Had a great time with a great bunch.
Going to airport after I get off work at 06:00 tomorrow. Hope to get a good
bit of work done on the airplane.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering The CH701 |
Steve,
You must be an Ex-Marine because you always sign off with
Semper-Fi. Harker Heights is a very small town in Central Texas between
Temple and Lampasas, right next to Killeen and US Army Fort Hood.
Bob Stone DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Hulland
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701
Bob,
Yep, the bow and arrow, etc. would work well. Where is Harker Heights,
TX? I was in Corpus Christi with my wife from the 3rd until the 9th of
this month. Had a great time with a great bunch.
Going to airport after I get off work at 06:00 tomorrow. Hope to get a
good bit of work done on the airplane.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies
scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help
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Message 30
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|
>From my point of view, a tow bar in the Zenith Airplanes will be usefull if you
have this two main process in moving your plane:
Long backwards pushing, needs some practice to make corrections while pushing
from the prop hub, to keep the plane in the correct direction and the front wheel
straight.
Pulling the plane a little uphill... Our hangar has a little slope from the platform,
and pulling the plane uphill from the prop hub is dificult because the
pulling momentum is high for the body.
In level area the tow bar is not a must have, but good to have.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Rained out today... :-(
george may <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george
may"
Bob--
The finished aircraft is light enough to pull/push around by the prop. I
do it all the time. I wouldn't push down on the rear end anywhere since it
is only .016 aluminum. Even with this being said I do plan to fabricate a
tow bar eventually-----------
George May
601 XL 912s
>From: "Robert L. Stone"
>To:
>Subject: Zenith-List: Tow Bar
>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:34:39 -0500
>
>Members,
> Does anyone know where to get a tow bar for a ZodiacXL? If not, is
>there anyone on the net that has the facilities to make one up for a
>reasonable price of course?
> This question is for those of you who have finished their ZodiacXL.
>Is the finished aircraft light enough for one to push down on the tail and
>move it around that way?
>
>Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
>ZodiacXL
_________________________________________________________________
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---------------------------------
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering The CH701 |
To trailer the 701 fuselage is better to have the fuselage kind of a "take off"
position.
This is with the front wheel raised as little and tied up over a stool type support
in the trailer floor and also a tie in the tail hook. Off course with the
main gears well tied and movement free.
This way the trailer not need to be too tall.
The wings will be safe in a hamoc type support to the side walls. The hamoc support
we made it from strips of carpets (samples from a carpet store) carefully
passed betwen the wing and the slats. The wings will be movement free with
straps to the wall. the wall will have strips of foam and heavy cloth to
protect the wings.
This, of course is a two or three person task, for the volume of the parts, not
the weight.
Hope this helps.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Chris Wolf <cwolf41@comcast.net> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris
Wolf
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:53:32 -0700, Steve Hulland wrote:
>Chris,
>If I were to build a 701 and then take it with me and the RV for extended
>trips, I would use an enclosed trailer. The wings come off easily and stores
>under the fuselage on the floor of the trailer without any problem.
Yeah, that's probably the best idea. I figured I could even build a couple
of form-fitting little cubbyholes, lined with carpet, and just slide the
wings in.
I suppose if you're going to trailer the plane on an open trailer, the Kolb
is probably best, since it has a much lower profile, and wouldn't be as
affected by the wind. But as you say, it's probably best to use an
enclosed trailer, no matter what kind of plane you're hauling. Open
trailers just expose the plane to a lot of risks.
It would take less enclosed trailer for the Kolb, since it's just a little
over five feet tall, with the wings folded. The 701 is about 8.5 feet tall
with the wings folded.
Also, I wouldn't have to drain the fuel from the wings, with the Kolb. But
I do like the 701!
Only problem with an enclosed trailer, is theft. The thieves don't know
what's inside, so they just grab it and run. An acquaintance of mine had
his trailer and plane stolen. He literally ended up in a remote forest, in
the middle of the night, leaving ransom money. He got his stuff back.
I think I'll paint MANURE HAULING, or DEAD ANIMALS REMOVED on the side of
my trailer, in great big letters. Or maybe MORTUARY SERVICE - BODIES
TRANSPORTED.
>Having recently sold a 701 airframe, I know this can be done because the
>person who bought it drove down with a trailer and took it home. His trailer
>was not long enough to enclose the entire tail, so he built a special rear
>door that allowed the tail to stick out when closed - sorta like those extra
>openings for rudders that you see in hangars designed for really big
>airplanes. A slightly longer trailer would have allowed him to enclose the
>entire airplane - and it was very easy to put inside.
Clever!
>Trailering this way would be much safer than any other, not matter what type
>airplane - that is why they do this with sailplanes.
Yeah, I noticed that last week, watching a glider land, and pack up. Off
comes the wings, and everything gets slipped inside a long, skinny trailer.
I have a local, custom trailer company that can make me whatever I need.
>Have flown both airplanes and enjoy the 701 more than the Kolb - just
>personal prefrence as both are very good airplanes.
Shucks, I was hoping you could help me break the tie! ;-)
Thanks for the feedback!
Chris Wolf
cwolf41@comcast.net
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