---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/15/06: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:18 AM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Steve Hulland) 2. 08:17 AM - Re: Tow Bar (Tim Juhl) 3. 08:29 AM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Robert L. Stone) 4. 11:08 AM - Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (Gig Giacona) 5. 12:25 PM - Re: (no subject) cork adhesive (Chuck & Lana Maggart) 6. 12:36 PM - Re: Tow Bar (Chuck & Lana Maggart) 7. 01:32 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Chris Wolf) 8. 01:35 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Chris Wolf) 9. 01:53 PM - Re: Tow Bar (Robert L. Stone) 10. 01:58 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Dave Austin) 11. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 (LarryMcFarland) 12. 03:59 PM - First Flight (george may) 13. 04:20 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Joe and Joan) 14. 04:23 PM - Re: First Flight (LarryMcFarland) 15. 04:34 PM - Wrong terms for aluminum properties.... (LarryMcFarland) 16. 04:38 PM - Re: First Flight (N5SL) 17. 04:42 PM - splicing long 601xl wing parts (Maarten Versteeg) 18. 04:53 PM - sheet aluminum source (Maarten Versteeg) 19. 05:20 PM - Re: Tow Bar (Sigmo@aol.com) 20. 05:39 PM - Re: splicing long 601xl wing parts (David Barth) 21. 05:57 PM - On-line info on making and using form blocks - the results (Craig Payne) 22. 06:00 PM - Re: splicing long 601xl wing parts (Paul Mulwitz) 23. 06:11 PM - Re: sheet aluminum source (Paul Mulwitz) 24. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Tow Bar (Trevor Page) 25. 06:59 PM - 601XL Nose Wheel axle assembly ? (Robin Bellach) 26. 07:03 PM - Re: Tow Bar (Robert L. Stone) 27. 07:12 PM - Re: First Flight (n801bh@netzero.com) 28. 07:23 PM - Re: First Flight (Michael Valentine) 29. 08:09 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Steve Hulland) 30. 08:11 PM - Re: Trailering The CH701 (Gary Gower) 31. 10:04 PM - CH-750? (George Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:43 AM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 Robert, Nope, not an Ex-Marine as they are only the ones who were discharged under less than honorable conditions. I am a Marine - retired at that. Ha! Attended a reunion of Marines in Corpus Christi Oct 3-9. Attendees included active duty from Cpl to Lt.Gen. and retirees from GySgt - Lt General and Marines who got out with less than 20 from PFC to GySgt. We are a great band of brothers. On the way to the airport to work on airplane. Have a grand day. DO NOT ARCHIVE -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tow Bar From: "Tim Juhl" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" My XL came with the newer nose gear with the welded stop ring. Regardless, I'm thinking that Larry's collar mounted just above the nose wheel pant would be a good spot to attach a tow bar. I've seen others where builders put a hole in the pants over the axle nut and make a tow bar that has cups on the end that will fit into the hole and over the nut. Using the collar would reduce the risk of scratching up the pant. Regarding pushing the aircraft around by the prop..... the propeller manufacturers all say this is a no-no although I admit to being guilty of this to some extent. I haven't finished my XL but I have moved many heavier aircraft using a tow bar and a hand on the prop close to the hub. Obviously you wouldn't want to pull on the prop tip. Also, Cessna came out with a service bulletin many years ago warning of damage potential to the spar or attachments in the horizontal stabilizer caused by folks pushing down on it to raise the nose so it could be moved around. Remember, stabs are designed to handle a load distributed evenly over their surface, not at one or two points the size of a human hand. Tim Do not archive -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67947#67947 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 Steve, I cannot say I am from a more glorious outfit but very effective anyway. I am retired US Air Force. The only people who get into combat in the USAF today is the officers. The only positions on air crews today that are filled by enlisted is radio operators and load masters. They are on cargo aircraft only. All tactical combat aircraft have an all officer crew. During the second world war the situation was quite different because the bulk of the crew of a B-17 or a B-24 were the gunners. The 8th Air Force conducting bombing operations over German occupied areas of Europe suffered loses of up to 67% until the North American P-51 Mustang became available. After that loses to enemy fighters went down to almost nothing. I went in right after the war in 1946 and have never heard a shot fired except on the rifle range. Tell me what you are building and how far along you are. I am building a ZodiacXL with the Jabiru 3300 engine and expect to be finished this November or December. I have enclosed a picture. Bob Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Hulland To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:17 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 Robert, Nope, not an Ex-Marine as they are only the ones who were discharged under less than honorable conditions. I am a Marine - retired at that. Ha! Attended a reunion of Marines in Corpus Christi Oct 3-9. Attendees included active duty from Cpl to Lt.Gen. and retirees from GySgt - Lt General and Marines who got out with less than 20 from PFC to GySgt. We are a great band of brothers. On the way to the airport to work on airplane. Have a grand day. DO NOT ARCHIVE -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 From: "Gig Giacona" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I too am concerned with the change in metals. Quoting the are of the site that talks about budget. I get the following Google translation. Now I don't what the properties of those are but they weren't what the designer intended. > The Kit made with plate 5052 - H38 has all the Stringers, of the wings, profundor and stabilizer made in aluminum 2024 T-3. > 2-S I can vender the Kit so that it has the project, in case that you I want I can buy, or you yourselves purchase for the Internet, costs 390 dollars, +, this gives to the guarantee to be in day with the designer and is demanded the Invoice in the hour of you to make the document of the airplane. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67966#67966 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:29 PM PST US From: "Chuck & Lana Maggart" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: (no subject) cork adhesive The cork strips with my kit had adhesive applied tape to the cork which worked great. Chuck Maggart XL/Jabiru in paint ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:05 PM PST US From: "Chuck & Lana Maggart" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tow Bar Bob, I would not recommend "pushing on the tail" especially if you have untrained helpers. I have seen factory built aircraft damaged that way and the Zodiac is lighter. I bought a tow bar for a Piper Cherokee from AS&S and added a 4130 steel plate on the nose wheel fork. The plate picks up the forward two bolt holes in the fork and I drilled two holes in the plate to mate with the tow bar. It is the same setup used on Cherokees and Tri-Pacers. I am considering extending the tow bar about a foot to make it easier to reach under the nose. Chuck Maggart, St. Louis XL in paint ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:33 PM PST US From: Chris Wolf Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris Wolf On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:39:13 -0700, Steven Hulland wrote: >Chris, >I have an enclosed utility trailer. I lock the safety chains to my vehicle >and they are firmly attached (plus lock) to the tounge. I also use another >lock as the safety pin that holds the ball hitch lever in the down position. >Finally, if on a trip that requires the trailer to be at a motel, etc. I >take a tire boot and lock one of the tires. Takes a couple of extra minutes >to hook things up, but I have never lost the trailer - or any other. > >Also have a small 1/4 ton ex-USMC utility trailer with a pintal hitch. Lock >the safety chains, but don't worry about the hitch part - most people do not >have a pintel and cannot steal it. > >Last resort, if I see them stealing it, I simply shoot. Seems to work well. >Ha! > >DO Not Archive Good advice. Thanks! Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:01 PM PST US From: Chris Wolf Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris Wolf On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:26:06 -0700 (PDT), Gary Gower wrote: >To trailer the 701 fuselage is better to have the fuselage kind of a "take >off" position. >This is with the front wheel raised as little and tied up over a stool type >support in the trailer floor and also a tie in the tail hook. Off course >with the main gears well tied and movement free. >This way the trailer not need to be too tall. Very clever! Do you happen to know how tall the fuselage is, in this "takeoff" position? >The wings will be safe in a hamoc type support to the side walls. The >hamoc support we made it from strips of carpets (samples from a carpet >store) carefully passed betwen the wing and the slats. The wings will >be movement free with straps to the wall. the wall will have strips of >foam and heavy cloth to protect the wings. Sounds like a good system. >This, of course is a two or three person task, for the volume of the parts, >not the weight. > >Hope this helps. > >Saludos >Gary Gower. Very helpful. Thanks! Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tow Bar Chuck, I would like to see a picture of your set-up and also can you furnish me with the part number of the tow bar you got from AS&S. Bob Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck & Lana Maggart To: Zenith List Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tow Bar Bob, I would not recommend "pushing on the tail" especially if you have untrained helpers. I have seen factory built aircraft damaged that way and the Zodiac is lighter. I bought a tow bar for a Piper Cherokee from AS&S and added a 4130 steel plate on the nose wheel fork. The plate picks up the forward two bolt holes in the fork and I drilled two holes in the plate to mate with the tow bar. It is the same setup used on Cherokees and Tri-Pacers. I am considering extending the tow bar about a foot to make it easier to reach under the nose. Chuck Maggart, St. Louis XL in paint ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:31 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" Of course, with the aircraft in the takeoff position, at hiway speed there will be no weight on the trailer or its' wheels so it will tow rather easily.. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:45 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: A special Zodiac XL 601 --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Gig, 5052-H38 aluminum is used for deep press container segments and it gets more resistant during the work done on it. We're talking pots and cookware here. In aircraft speak, other than a fuel tank it's application would be limited. As it gets stressed, it work hardens. Not a product I'd want to put into actual wing structure as its elongation is less than half that of 2024-T3 and 6061-T6 aluminum for aircraft structures. Ultimate is approx 42K for all three, but 5052-H38 has elongation of 7000 psi, where the 2024-T3 and 6061-T6 have 17000 psi elongation properties. This speaks to the durability over long term for structural loading. I used 5052-H32 for my header and wing tanks, and at .040, it's a little softer, but excellent for a fuel tank, welding, forming etc. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Gig Giacona wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" > >I too am concerned with the change in metals. Quoting the are of the site that talks about budget. I get the following Google translation. Now I don't what the properties of those are but they weren't what the designer intended. > > > > >>The Kit made with plate 5052 - H38 has all the Stringers, of the wings, profundor and stabilizer made in aluminum 2024 T-3. >>2-S I can vender the Kit so that it has the project, in case that you I want I can buy, or you yourselves purchase for the Internet, costs 390 dollars, +, this gives to the guarantee to be in day with the designer and is demanded the Invoice in the hour of you to make the document of the airplane. >> >> > > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:34 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" Well folks, this list has helped to launch another Zodiac. On Saturday morning at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off for its first flight. Sky was crystal clear, winds calm, and the foliage of New England outstanding. Take off occurred after about a 450 foot run with a climbout at 85mph. I'm using a dynon system for EFIS and forgot to set it up with VSI, so my best guess is that the climb was about 600-700fpm. No attempt was made for a max climb, just a relatively gently one. I climbed to 2500ft, took a deep breath, enjoyed the secenery for a couple of minutes and gently circled the field checking out pitch, roll and yaw. With everything in the green engine wise the only issued appeared to be the need for continuous back pressure on the elevator which could not be trimmed out. Speed was 95-100mph Since the preflight plan was take off, climb to 2500, circle for control checks and land, it was time to start the drop back to pattern altitute for landing. I still had the need for significant back pressure on the stick. Luckily as the speed dropped to 65-70mph the backpressure required also dropped making the landing approach a lot less exciting than I thought at first it might be. Knowing I had to continue to hold back stick , I extended the downwind leg figuring it would give me more time for the final lineup. All went well. The zodiac is a really well behaved plane, and was very stable through the base and final. I came over the fence at 65mph and settled right on the numbers. Full stop was in about 350feet All suggestions for fixes to alleviate the elevator backpressure are appreciated. Since the pressure varied with speed, I assume it is probably a misalignment of incidence between the wing,fuse and/or stab. I'll be checking that out on Monday. Thanks to everyone on the list for your comments, suggestions and help especially to list member Jeff Paris for the familiarization flight. George May Zodiac 601XL 912s N221GM _________________________________________________________________ Try the new Live Search today! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:46 PM PST US From: "Joe and Joan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe and Joan" Chris, 3 months ago I trailered my ch 701 on a trailer behind my Motorhome from FL to CA and Back, so I have do have experience and knowledge of your desire. I would rather not discuss this on the list as I do not like to be ridiculed or put down. Please contact me by telephone or at my email jnjkimbell@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Wolf" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris Wolf > > > I'm interested in doing extended trailering of a Zenith 701. > > I've been flying for many years, and I'm currently part owner of a Cessna > 182. I also own a recreational vehicle which I love to travel in, around > the country. But what I would really enjoy, is an airplane that I could > tow on a trailer behind my RV, stopping and flying wherever the scenery > looks interesting. RVs seem to be towing every other kind of recreational > vehicle, these days, so why not an airplane? > > Obviously such an aircraft would have to have folding wings, which is why > I've been looking at the Zenith 701. I took the rudder building workshop > for the 701, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think I would enjoy building > the > 701. I also took a ride in the 701, and was quite impressed with its > performance. > > I've seen pictures at the Zenith web site of a 701 on trailers. One plane > was even being towed behind an RV, so it looks like I'm not the first guy > to get the idea. > > But is the 701 really suited for extensive trailering? That folding wing > design looks like it was more intended to reduce hangar space, rather than > designed for zooming down the highway at 70 mph. Those folding wings > constitute a large, flat surface of metal, high in the air. How much side > gusting of wind could the plane endure before it was damaged, or worse > yet, > caused the trailer to flip over? > > It's my understanding that the folded wings are only secured by a single > pivot bolt at the front, and slots in a plywood saddle at the back. Is > this really enough to secure the wings for extended highway travel? > > I talked to Michael Heintz at Quality Sport Planes, in Cloverdale, > California, last week, while I was taking the rudder building workshop. > He > said for extended trailering, the best method would be to remove the wings > entirely, and strap them to the bed of the trailer. Then trailering would > be fine. > > Does anyone have any experience with extended trailering of the 701? If > so, I would sure like to talk to you! > > I like the 701 very much. However I'm also looking at a Kolb Mark III > Xtra. It seems like Kolb planes get trailered quite a bit, while the 701 > does not. Perhaps there is a good reason? The Kolb factory says their > aircraft was designed for folding and trailering, and the folded plane > does > seem to look more solid and compact than the 701. I also like the fact > that the Kolb does not use a wet wing, so unlike the Zenith, there is no > need to drain the fuel before folding the wings. > > If anyone has any suggestions or advice on this topic, I'd sure appreciate > hearing from you. Thanks! > > Chris Wolf > cwolf41@comcast.net > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:08 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland George, Congratulations on your first flight. The adventure has just begun! Larry McFarland do not archive george may wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" > > > Well folks, this list has helped to launch another Zodiac. On > Saturday morning at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off for its first > flight. Sky was crystal clear, winds calm, and the foliage of New > England outstanding. > > All suggestions for fixes to alleviate the elevator backpressure are > appreciated. Since the pressure varied with speed, I assume it is > probably a misalignment of incidence between the wing,fuse and/or > stab. I'll be checking that out on Monday. > > Thanks to everyone on the list for your comments, suggestions and > help especially to list member Jeff Paris for the familiarization > flight. > > George May > Zodiac 601XL 912s > N221GM > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:00 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Wrong terms for aluminum properties.... --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Whoops, I mentally transposed % of elongation in 2 inch samples to KPSI. The following should have read 7% and 17% elongation respectively. Fingers got ahead of the brain, again............. 5052-H38 aluminum is used for deep press container segments and it gets more resistant during the work done on it. We're talking pots and cookware here. In aircraft speak, other than a fuel tank it's application would be limited. As it gets stressed, it work hardens. Not a product I'd want to put into actual wing structure as its elongation is less than half that of 2024-T3 and 6061-T6 aluminum for aircraft structures. Ultimate is approx 42K for all three, but 5052-H38 has elongation of 7 %, where the 2024-T3 and 6061-T6 have 17 % elongation properties. This speaks to the durability over long term for structural loading. I used 5052-H32 for my header and wing tanks, and at .040, it's a little softer, but excellent for a fuel tank, welding, forming etc. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:57 PM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL George I'm happy for you! Congratulations! Thanks for the detailed description of your first flight. I felt like I was up there with you! I've heard of a few guys adjusting their horiz. Stab for the same reason you stated below. I'd get some details from the actual guys before taking any action. Congratulations again! Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair Engine testing ----- Original Message ---- From: george may Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 5:58:46 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" Well folks, this list has helped to launch another Zodiac. On Saturday morning at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off for its first flight. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:00 PM PST US From: Maarten Versteeg Subject: Zenith-List: splicing long 601xl wing parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg Hello List, I nearly finished building the tail from kit(s) and am enjoying the building very much. Now I am getting closer to starting on the main wing and am considering jumping in the deep end by building it from scratch. There are 3 very long 11-12 feet bend parts in the wind. I read in the list archive and 601.org that the rear spar channel 6W7-1 can be spliced from two 6 feet parts. Through my EAA counselor I can access a 8 feet brake so that should work. The main spar has two caps (top 6W3-6 and bottom 6W3-7) that are almost as long. I didn't find any mention of these parts, can these parts just be split in two ~6 feet sections since they are attached to the main spar and the wing skin or is some splicing needed ? Regards, Maarten: 601xl tail almost finished San Antonio, Texas -- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:10 PM PST US From: Maarten Versteeg Subject: Zenith-List: sheet aluminum source --> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg Hello List, Up to now I have build the 601xl tail using the kits and am very satisfied with these, but it seems like a real challenge to build at least some part completely from scratch. I could easily order the large 6061-T6 aluminum wing sheets from Aircraft Spruce together with all the other needed parts. I have three questions: - Do they also have the correct rivets and what would the AS order number for A4 and A5 be? - Did anyone count the number of rivets in the main wings ? - Any suggestions on other sources, easier, cheaper, more local for this order with the large 4 x 12 ' sheets including some that can't be rolled ? Regards, Maarten: 601xl tail almost finished San Antonio, Texas -- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:52 PM PST US From: Sigmo@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tow Bar I tried several methods to mount a tow bar and since I'm not putting on the wheel farings I just bought a standard cessna tow bar from aircraft spruce and it fits over the end of the wheel axel bolts. Works great. Mike Sigman N7092N 601XL 13-01540 DELUXE CESSNA TOWBAR ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:02 PM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: splicing long 601xl wing parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hi Maarten. Chris Heintz said we could butt the spar cap angles up to one another (not spliced as per the rear spar) as long as the break in continuity is located away from the termination point of the front spar caps to prevent stress concentrations in that area. My spar cap angles have their break about 1 foot outboard of the front spar cap termination point. HOpe that answers your question. David --- Maarten Versteeg wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg > > > Hello List, > > I nearly finished building the tail from kit(s) and > am > enjoying the building very much. Now I am getting > closer > to starting on the main wing and am considering > jumping > in the deep end by building it from scratch. > There are 3 very long 11-12 feet bend parts in the > wind. > I read in the list archive and 601.org that the rear > spar > channel 6W7-1 can be spliced from two 6 feet parts. > Through my EAA counselor I can access a 8 feet brake > so > that should work. The main spar has two caps (top > 6W3-6 > and bottom 6W3-7) that are almost as long. I didn't > find > any mention of these parts, can these parts just be > split > in two ~6 feet sections since they are attached to > the > main spar and the wing skin or is some splicing > needed ? > > Regards, > Maarten: 601xl tail almost finished > San Antonio, Texas > David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:26 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: On-line info on making and using form blocks - the results Thanks for all the pointers and instruction on making and using form blocks. The results are attached. One might ask why I need two luggage shelf bulkheads. Well, the new one on the left is 5 mm wider than the old factory one on the right. Why 5 mm? That is long story that begins in 1999... -- Craig ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:12 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: splicing long 601xl wing parts --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Actually, I believe the angles on the main XL spar are around 12 feet long. I wouldn't splice them without designer approval. Paul XL fuselage At 04:41 PM 10/15/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg > > >Hello List, > >I nearly finished building the tail from kit(s) and am >enjoying the building very much. Now I am getting closer >to starting on the main wing and am considering jumping >in the deep end by building it from scratch. >There are 3 very long 11-12 feet bend parts in the wind. >I read in the list archive and 601.org that the rear spar >channel 6W7-1 can be spliced from two 6 feet parts. >Through my EAA counselor I can access a 8 feet brake so >that should work. The main spar has two caps (top 6W3-6 >and bottom 6W3-7) that are almost as long. I didn't find >any mention of these parts, can these parts just be split >in two ~6 feet sections since they are attached to the >main spar and the wing skin or is some splicing needed ? > >Regards, > Maarten: 601xl tail almost finished > San Antonio, Texas > >-- > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:27 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: sheet aluminum source --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Maarten, I like your idea of making the wing skins from scratch. I used ones from the kit and had problems with the holes drilled at ZAC. They didn't match my rib structure. You will face an interesting challenge when it comes to bending the nose skin. It should be easier, though, than the spar cap angles. On the rivets, I think you would do best to order them from ZAC. They perform special qualification tests on them to get ones better than the manufacturer guarantees. They also know how many to supply for the wings since that is what they put in the kits. I don't think Aircraft Spruce has anything close. One thing you might consider is ordering the completed spars from ZAC (they actually get them from Zenair) and building the rest yourself. If you add in the nose skin and rear channel then you won't have any long bending to do. The fiberglass wing tips are another candidate for ordering from ZAC. The ones they supply are difficult to fit, but it might be easier than laying up your own fiberglass. If you order the center wing section along with the spars, then they will probably fit them together with the proper dihedral angle (certainly if you ask). Paul XL fuselage At 04:52 PM 10/15/2006, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Maarten Versteeg > > >Hello List, > >Up to now I have build the 601xl tail using the kits >and am very satisfied with these, but it seems like a >real challenge to build at least some part completely >from scratch. I could easily order the large 6061-T6 >aluminum wing sheets from Aircraft Spruce together with >all the other needed parts. I have three questions: >- Do they also have the correct rivets and what would >the AS order number for A4 and A5 be? >- Did anyone count the number of rivets in the main >wings ? >- Any suggestions on other sources, easier, cheaper, >more local for this order with the large 4 x 12 ' >sheets including some that can't be rolled ? > >Regards, > Maarten: 601xl tail almost finished > San Antonio, Texas > >-- > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:06 PM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Tow Bar For the life of me I can't figure out why some people think that pulling a plane from the prop hub is a bad thing. After all, this is where all the loads are from the prop during flight anyhow!!! I am however very careful to only grab the root of a blade when I push/pull. I've made 2 tow-bars for my 601 so far and my second attempt worked out much better since it's articulated. Total cost of the parts was about $13 CND and 2 hours of cutting/welding and I'd highly recommend making one since it makes directing the plane much easier. Of course this is a nose gear plane so tail draggers will have to figure out a tail wheel bar. Should be easy if you Google some RV stuff. I'll try and post some pictures next time I go out to the hangar. Trev Page C-IDUS 601HD R912 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:08 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Nose Wheel axle assembly ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> I don't understand how to properly fit/shim the front axle to achieve proper spacing and tension on the wheel bearings. My wheel fork is 152mm wide outside, 142mm inside. The wheel width overall at the bearings is about 75mm and adding 62mm for the spacers = 137mm. That leaves about 5mm of slack. The kit includes 2 AN960-1216 washers that I thought would go on the outside under the castle nuts. Should these actually be on the inside of the fork to take up that 5mm of slack, or should they be on the outside with and additional pair on the inside? (I notice that 2 AN960-1216's total about 5mm thick so seems would be about right.) How does one properly shim the bearings and tighten the axle nuts to get the right tension on the wheel bearings? Robin, confused in AR N601ZV Zen-Vair ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tow Bar ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:19 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight A big congrats to you. The smile you have will last for weeks.. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "george may" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" Well folks, this list has helped to launch another Zodiac. On Saturday morning at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off for its first flight. Sky was crystal clear, winds calm, and the foliage of New England outstanding. Take off occurred after about a 450 foot run with a climbout at 85mph. I'm u sing a dynon system for EFIS and forgot to set it up with VSI, so my best gue ss is that the climb was about 600-700fpm. No attempt was made for a max climb, just a relatively gently one. I climbed to 2500ft, took a deep breath, enjoyed the secenery for a couple of minutes and gently circled the field checking out pitch, roll and yaw. With everything in the green en gine wise the only issued appeared to be the need for continuous back pressur e on the elevator which could not be trimmed out. Speed was 95-100mph Since the preflight plan was take off, climb to 2500, circle for contr ol checks and land, it was time to start the drop back to pattern altitute for landing. I still had the need for significant back pressure on the stic k. Luckily as the speed dropped to 65-70mph the backpressure required also dropped making the landing approach a lot less exciting than I thought a t first it might be. Knowing I had to continue to hold back stick , I exte nded the downwind leg figuring it would give me more time for the final lineu p. All went well. The zodiac is a really well behaved plane, and was very stable through the base and final. I came over the fence at 65mph and settled right on the numbers. Full stop was in about 350feet All suggestions for fixes to alleviate the elevator backpressure are appreciated. Since the pressure varied with speed, I assume it is proba bly a misalignment of incidence between the wing,fuse and/or stab. I'll be checking that out on Monday. Thanks to everyone on the list for your comments, suggestions and help especially to list member Jeff Paris for the familiarization flight. George May Zodiac 601XL 912s N221GM _________________________________________________________________ Try the new Live Search today! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FO RM=WLMTAG ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

A big congrats to you. The smile you have will last for weeks..

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- "george may" <gfmjr_20@HOTMAIL.COM>& nbsp;wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by:  "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>


Wel l folks, this list has helped to laun ch another Zodiac.  On Saturday 
mornin g at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off&nbs p;for its first flight.  Sky was 
crystal clear, winds calm, and the foliage  of New England outstanding.  Take off occurred after about a 450 foot  ;run with a climbout at 85mph.  I'm&n bsp;using 
a dynon system for EFIS and& nbsp;forgot to set it up with VSI, so  my best guess 
is that the climb& nbsp;was about 600-700fpm.  No attempt was  made for a max 
climb, just a&nbs p;relatively gently one.  I climbed to&nbs p;2500ft, took a deep 
breath, enjoyed  the secenery for a couple of minutes  and gently circled the 
field checking  out pitch, roll and yaw.  With everyt hing in the green engine 
wise the  ;only issued appeared to be the need  for continuous back pressure on 
the el evator which could not be trimmed out.&nbs p; Speed was 95-100mph
  Since the  ;preflight plan was take off, climb to&nbs p;2500, circle for control 
checks and  land,  it was time to start the  drop back to pattern altitute for 
land ing.  I still had the need for s ignificant back pressure on the stick. &nb sp;
Luckily as the speed dropped to 65- 70mph the backpressure required also 
droppe d making the landing approach a lot l ess exciting than I thought at 
first&n bsp;it might be. Knowing I had to con tinue to hold back stick , I extended  
the downwind leg figuring it would&nb sp;give me more time for the final li neup.  
All went well.  The zodiac  is a really well behaved plane, and& nbsp;was very 
stable through the base  and final.  I came over the fence&nbs p;at 65mph and 
settled right on the&nb sp;numbers. Full stop was in about 350feet

  All suggestions for fixes to&nbs p;alleviate the elevator backpressure are 
a ppreciated.  Since the pressure varied wit h speed, I assume it is probably 
a misalignment of incidence between the wi ng,fuse and/or stab.  I'll be 
checking  that out on Monday.

Thanks to ever yone on the list for your comments, s uggestions and help  
especially to lis t member Jeff Paris for the familiarizatio n flight.

George May
Zodiac 601XL  91 2s
N221GM

____________________________________________________ _____________
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http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?l ======================== ======================== nbsp;Use the Matronics List Features Navigator& Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse,&nb ======================== =           &nb sp;  - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
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________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:11 PM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Flight Great news George - congratulations. I look forward to coming for a visit. Michael On 10/15/06, george may wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" > > > Well folks, this list has helped to launch another Zodiac. On Saturday > morning at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off for its first flight. Sky > was > crystal clear, winds calm, and the foliage of New England > outstanding. Take > off occurred after about a 450 foot run with a climbout at 85mph. I'm > using > a dynon system for EFIS and forgot to set it up with VSI, so my best guess > is that the climb was about 600-700fpm. No attempt was made for a max > climb, just a relatively gently one. I climbed to 2500ft, took a deep > breath, enjoyed the secenery for a couple of minutes and gently circled > the > field checking out pitch, roll and yaw. With everything in the green > engine > wise the only issued appeared to be the need for continuous back pressure > on > the elevator which could not be trimmed out. Speed was 95-100mph > Since the preflight plan was take off, climb to 2500, circle for control > checks and land, it was time to start the drop back to pattern altitute > for > landing. I still had the need for significant back pressure on the stick. > Luckily as the speed dropped to 65-70mph the backpressure required also > dropped making the landing approach a lot less exciting than I thought at > first it might be. Knowing I had to continue to hold back stick , I > extended > the downwind leg figuring it would give me more time for the final lineup. > All went well. The zodiac is a really well behaved plane, and was very > stable through the base and final. I came over the fence at 65mph and > settled right on the numbers. Full stop was in about 350feet > > All suggestions for fixes to alleviate the elevator backpressure are > appreciated. Since the pressure varied with speed, I assume it is > probably > a misalignment of incidence between the wing,fuse and/or stab. I'll be > checking that out on Monday. > > Thanks to everyone on the list for your comments, suggestions and help > especially to list member Jeff Paris for the familiarization flight. > > George May > Zodiac 601XL 912s > N221GM > > _________________________________________________________________ > Try the new Live Search today! > > http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:26 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 Robert, CH 600. It will be ready to fly in a few weeks. I have the registration and am finishing a re-paint on instrument panel before scheduling the DAR. Hope to fly in Nov/Dec. Will send pictures to everyone soon. - Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:58 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Trailering The CH701 Hello Chris, Dont remeber right now how tall was... But with the propeller in a "Y" position, the rudder was just a little higher than the propeller. A almost "normal" height enclosed trailer can be made. Saludos Gary Gower do not archive. Chris Wolf wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris Wolf On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:26:06 -0700 (PDT), Gary Gower wrote: >To trailer the 701 fuselage is better to have the fuselage kind of a "take >off" position. >This is with the front wheel raised as little and tied up over a stool type >support in the trailer floor and also a tie in the tail hook. Off course >with the main gears well tied and movement free. >This way the trailer not need to be too tall. Very clever! Do you happen to know how tall the fuselage is, in this "takeoff" position? >The wings will be safe in a hamoc type support to the side walls. The >hamoc support we made it from strips of carpets (samples from a carpet >store) carefully passed betwen the wing and the slats. The wings will >be movement free with straps to the wall. the wall will have strips of >foam and heavy cloth to protect the wings. Sounds like a good system. >This, of course is a two or three person task, for the volume of the parts, >not the weight. > >Hope this helps. > >Saludos >Gary Gower. Very helpful. Thanks! Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:01 PM PST US From: "George Harris" Subject: Zenith-List: CH-750?