Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Re: painting with a furnace ()
2. 06:13 AM - Re: Nose gear bungees (Jim Hoak)
3. 07:25 AM - Re: First Flight ()
4. 12:58 PM - Re: First Flight (Jeffrey J Paris)
5. 03:04 PM - Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right (Ron Lendon)
6. 04:25 PM - Re: Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right (Christian Tremblay)
7. 04:36 PM - Inspection covers. (Dave Ruddiman)
8. 04:57 PM - Mounting ELT in 701 (doug kandle)
9. 05:14 PM - Re: Inspection covers. ()
10. 05:47 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Paul Mulwitz)
11. 06:02 PM - Re: ELT in 701 (Zed Smith)
12. 06:37 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (JOHN STARN)
13. 06:59 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Michael Valentine)
14. 07:07 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Dave Ruddiman)
15. 07:12 PM - Re: Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right (Ron Lendon)
16. 07:13 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Dave Ruddiman)
17. 07:43 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Gary Boothe)
18. 08:04 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Dave Ruddiman)
19. 08:14 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Gary Boothe)
20. 08:22 PM - Re: Mounting ELT in 701 (LRM)
21. 08:38 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Dave Ruddiman)
22. 08:46 PM - Re: Mounting ELT in 701 (Chuck Deiterich)
23. 09:36 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (doug kandle)
24. 09:53 PM - Re: Inspection covers. (Ron Lendon)
25. 10:37 PM - Re: Re: Inspection covers. (Dave Ruddiman)
26. 11:15 PM - Re: Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right (TxDave)
27. 11:35 PM - Off topic: my next airplane (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: painting with a furnace |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <davgray@sbcglobal.net>
Painters
Don't overlook a gas water heater as an excellent ignition source for
solvent fumes. The flame is near floor level, even better than a furnace
for igniting those heavier than air build ups of fumes. If you forget to
completely seal a container it may work in a delayed mode.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 7:48 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: painting with a furnace
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Ive posted this as perhaps something good to know. Fall warmth is spent
> and Ive been holding off finish painting the fuselage as temps drop off
> into the 50s. Im using AFS paints and had concern for the flammability
> of water thinned paint. After speaking with Hangar 21, I learned that
> the paint was formally flash tested by spraying the 2-part paint
> directly across the open flame of a tank heater. It wouldnt generate a
> fire. This was good news as I have a furnace in the garage and was able
> to continue to spray in my booth and hold things at the required 70 to
> 85 degrees.
>
> I was also advised that AFS primer would not be forgiving of spraying in
> proximity of an open flame or furnace, but I am finally done with primer.
>
> Have a good one,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS Painting nearly done. www.macsmachine.com
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Nose gear bungees |
George and Listers,
My experience is that heat is not the reason for the nose gear bungee
deterioration. In my opinion, FWIW, is that the wearing and fraying is
due to bending the bungee over a small diameter tube along with a
twisting motion during taxiing when the nose gear is moving up and down.
Remember, the twisting motion, small as it is, goes on in flight too
when you move the rudder pedals. I suggest that people don't get too
concerned with some fraying of the outer threads of the bungee. The real
problem arises when the rubber bands become exposed. Just my thoughs on
this from my experiences.
Jim Hoak 601HD - 912UL - 532 hours.
----- Original Message -----
From: George Swinford
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 4:02 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Zenith-List: Nose gear bungees
Could the deterioration of the nose gear bungees be related to heat
under the cowl? Particularly in installations where the muffler is
close to the bottom of the bungee? Anyone try to shield the bungee from
radiated heat?
George
Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <steerr@bellsouth.net>
Way to go, George! Sorry I couldn't be there to witness the flight.
Bill
Do not archive
>
> From: "george may" <gfmjr_20@HOTMAIL.COM>
> Date: 2006/10/15 Sun PM 06:58:46 EDT
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Well folks, this list has helped to launch another Zodiac. On Saturday
> morning at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off for its first flight. Sky was
> crystal clear, winds calm, and the foliage of New England outstanding. Take
> off occurred after about a 450 foot run with a climbout at 85mph. I'm using
> a dynon system for EFIS and forgot to set it up with VSI, so my best guess
> is that the climb was about 600-700fpm. No attempt was made for a max
> climb, just a relatively gently one. I climbed to 2500ft, took a deep
> breath, enjoyed the secenery for a couple of minutes and gently circled the
> field checking out pitch, roll and yaw. With everything in the green engine
> wise the only issued appeared to be the need for continuous back pressure on
> the elevator which could not be trimmed out. Speed was 95-100mph
> Since the preflight plan was take off, climb to 2500, circle for control
> checks and land, it was time to start the drop back to pattern altitute for
> landing. I still had the need for significant back pressure on the stick.
> Luckily as the speed dropped to 65-70mph the backpressure required also
> dropped making the landing approach a lot less exciting than I thought at
> first it might be. Knowing I had to continue to hold back stick , I extended
> the downwind leg figuring it would give me more time for the final lineup.
> All went well. The zodiac is a really well behaved plane, and was very
> stable through the base and final. I came over the fence at 65mph and
> settled right on the numbers. Full stop was in about 350feet
>
> All suggestions for fixes to alleviate the elevator backpressure are
> appreciated. Since the pressure varied with speed, I assume it is probably
> a misalignment of incidence between the wing,fuse and/or stab. I'll be
> checking that out on Monday.
>
> Thanks to everyone on the list for your comments, suggestions and help
> especially to list member Jeff Paris for the familiarization flight.
>
> George May
> Zodiac 601XL 912s
> N221GM
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey J Paris" <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Hi George,
Congratulations! And way to go! Thanks again for the stickers and the camlock
washers, very thoughtful and greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeff Paris
--- On Sun 10/15, george may < gfmjr_20@HOTMAIL.COM > wrote:
From: george may [mailto: gfmjr_20@HOTMAIL.COM]
Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "george may" <gfmjr_20@hotmail.com><br><br><br>Well
folks, this list has helped to launch another Zodiac. On Saturday <br>morning
at about 9:00AM, N221GM launched off for its first flight. Sky was <br>crystal
clear, winds calm, and the foliage of New England outstanding. Take
<br>off occurred after about a 450 foot run with a climbout at 85mph. I'm using
<br>a dynon system for EFIS and forgot to set it up with VSI, so my best
guess <br>is that the climb was about 600-700fpm. No attempt was made for a max
<br>climb, just a relatively gently one. I climbed to 2500ft, took a deep
<br>breath, enjoyed the secenery for a couple of minutes and gently circled the
<br>field checking out pitch, roll and yaw. With everything in the green engine
<br>wise the only issued appeared to be the need for continuous back pressure
on <br>the elevator which could not be trimmed out. Speed was 95-100mph<br>
Since the preflight plan was take off, climb to
2500, circle for control <br>checks and land, it was time to start the drop back
to pattern altitute for <br>landing. I still had the need for significant
back pressure on the stick. <br>Luckily as the speed dropped to 65-70mph the
backpressure required also <br>dropped making the landing approach a lot less
exciting than I thought at <br>first it might be. Knowing I had to continue to
hold back stick , I extended <br>the downwind leg figuring it would give me more
time for the final lineup. <br>All went well. The zodiac is a really well
behaved plane, and was very <br>stable through the base and final. I came over
the fence at 65mph and <br>settled right on the numbers. Full stop was in
about 350feet<br><br> All suggestions for fixes to alleviate the elevator backpressure
are <br>appreciated. Since the pressure varied with speed, I assume
it is probably <br>a misalignment of incidence between the wing,fuse and/or stab.
I'll be <br>checking that out on
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Scratch builders,
While taking all the care I could muster, I have scratch built my outer wing spars.
During the process I noticed my template, the left wing spar web, would
need to be bent away from the line on the part. I left it flat and the flanged
hole un-cut till I had the spar caps and angles all drilled and ready for rivets.
Well wouldnt you know it I bent that flange and the flanged hole the wrong
way.
My first thought was to just leave it and continue on, but I couldnt stop thinking
about it so. . . I discovered why you want to keep that drill press square
when making these parts. I was able to move the spar caps and the spar cap doublers
to the other side of the web and take the spar cap angles from the other
spar assembly and save the integrity of the CH design with a few fatter rivets.
Everything will come out to spec just not perfect, Is anything we make perfect?
Now I hope I bend the other side the right way. I think I will be most careful
and compare it many times before bending.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68593#68593
Message 6
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| Subject: | Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Christian Tremblay <cj.tremblay@videotron.ca>
I Ron,
I just finish to fabric my own extended wing spars and I/O web spars for my CH640.
Your wings are similar to mine (I think so) except mine are wider and longer.
I dont understand your problem. Photo will add more explanation. The pieces
that I made are bend (except Inboard Spar - not have to be) and the flange
holes are done.
I can send photo if required, my web site is not up to date on spars progress.
Christian Tremblay
www.zodiac640.com
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Ron Lendon
Envoy : Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:03 PM
: zenith-list@matronics.com
Objet : Zenith-List: Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Scratch builders,
While taking all the care I could muster, I have scratch built my outer wing spars.
During the process I noticed my template, the left wing spar web, would
need to be bent away from the line on the part. I left it flat and the flanged
hole un-cut till I had the spar caps and angles all drilled and ready for rivets.
Well wouldnt you know it I bent that flange and the flanged hole the wrong
way.
My first thought was to just leave it and continue on, but I couldnt stop thinking
about it so. . . I discovered why you want to keep that drill press square
when making these parts. I was able to move the spar caps and the spar cap doublers
to the other side of the web and take the spar cap angles from the other
spar assembly and save the integrity of the CH design with a few fatter rivets.
Everything will come out to spec just not perfect, Is anything we make perfect?
Now I hope I bend the other side the right way. I think I will be most careful
and compare it many times before bending.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68593#68593
Message 7
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| Subject: | Inspection covers. |
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for inspection
plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why I can't
dimple and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and would hold
a small flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to the skin,
wouldn't it be about the same?
Dave in Salem
Message 8
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| Subject: | Mounting ELT in 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
I went to mount my ELT in my 701 today and hit a snag. Where do I mount it? The
instructions with the ELT say "The mounting surface must be extremely rigid;
therefore, mounting the ELT directly to the aircraft skin is unacceptable."
There is no surface in the tail of the 701 large enough to mount the ELT except
the skin. Have others added material attached to the longerons and then mounted
the ELT to that?
The installation specification states that the center line of the ELT must be mounted
within 10 degrees of the direction of flight. Well, the bottom of the
tail is slanted up more than 10 degrees so this means that to meet this specification
a bracket would need to be made even of I were to attach the ELT to the
bottom of the tail.
Do the DAR's look at this; and is meeting RTCA DO-183 paragraph 3.1.8 required?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68609#68609
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net>
The only reason that comes to mind for the doublers is to make the rim of the inspection
hole more trauma resistant when the hatch cover is off. Once the cover
is screwed into place, it essentially is a doubler for the inspection hole
in the skin, isn't it?
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL / Jabiru / fuselage
---- Dave Ruddiman <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello Fellow Listers,
>
> Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for inspection plates.
I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why I can't dimple and flush
rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and would hold a small flush rivet OK.
If the plates were riveted direct to the skin, wouldn't it be about the same?
>
>
> Dave in Salem
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
One other reason for the doubler approach is it allows a flush
mounted inspection plate. This might be significant in a very fast
airplane - definitely not a good description of the CH801.
Paul
XL fuselage
>The only reason that comes to mind for the doublers is to make the
>rim of the inspection hole more trauma resistant when the hatch
>cover is off. Once the cover is screwed into place, it essentially
>is a doubler for the inspection hole in the skin, isn't it?
>
>Ed Moody II
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Zed Smith <zsmith3rd@earthlink.net>
Haven't mounted mine yet, but I kind of like the area to the left and forward of
the bottom hatch cutout.
Makes it easy to mount and service later. Looks like a few pieces of ell or angle
might make a proper support.
This would locate the ELT behind the left seat, the battery occupying the other
side.
Other builders may opt for other locations.
Regards,
Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc/do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
NO..... The doubler is to spread the "load" of flexing around the hole
as a whole. Individual nutplates DO NOT spread the flex and can be the
cause for cracks as they localize it. Besides if you use a doubler that
leaves a 1/2" lip inside the hole & attach nut plates to the back of
that flange the inspection cover will fit flush and add addition
strength to the area. Flush rivet the doublers and make it part of the
permanent structure. No square corners, radius them & those of the
removable panel. I would also use .032 for the doubler and make it one
piece. On the Rocket we used .040 on the .032 skins. KABONG Do Not
Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for inspection
plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why I can't
dimple and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and would hold
a small flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to the skin,
wouldn't it be about the same?
Dave in Salem
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
Perhaps I am just showing my ignorance here, but where does it call for
doublers? I haven't seen that on the inspection holes on the tail or
wings. Am I missing something or does this come later?
Michael
(in NH)
do not archive
On 10/17/06, Dave Ruddiman <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Fellow Listers,
>
> Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for inspection
> plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why I can't dimple
> and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and would hold a small
> flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to the skin, wouldn't it
> be about the same?
>
>
> Dave in Salem
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
I'm not challenging any of the advice about the covers. I'm not
concerned about drag. The 801 isn't exactly a low drag air frame. I also
considered whether the plates would become part of the structure of the
wing skin. The wing assembly manual says I can cut a 95mm access hole.
Mine is 100mm. It also says to make a 135mm round cover and use 6 A4
rivets. My cover is 140mm and I have 8 holes which I have only pilot
drilled. I was originally going to use doublers and nut plates, then
decided to just rivet the plates to the skin. Now I have thought about
using nut plates again. It seems like I am making a big issue out of
something that should be simple. Or maybe not.
Dave in Salem
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
NO..... The doubler is to spread the "load" of flexing around the hole
as a whole. Individual nutplates DO NOT spread the flex and can be the
cause for cracks as they localize it. Besides if you use a doubler that
leaves a 1/2" lip inside the hole & attach nut plates to the back of
that flange the inspection cover will fit flush and add addition
strength to the area. Flush rivet the doublers and make it part of the
permanent structure. No square corners, radius them & those of the
removable panel. I would also use .032 for the doubler and make it one
piece. On the Rocket we used .040 on the .032 skins. KABONG Do Not
Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for
inspection plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why
I can't dimple and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and
would hold a small flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to
the skin, wouldn't it be about the same?
Dave in Salem
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
For clairifcation: see the flanged hole and the flange at the end of the web?
Yesterday they were pointing up in the same direction as the spar cap angles.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68633#68633
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/wingspar_114.jpeg
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
Michael,
They don't call for doublers that I know of. I was just asking the
question to see if they are necessary or not. ZAC says you don't need
them. It does add a step or two to the procedure but.....?
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Valentine
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Perhaps I am just showing my ignorance here, but where does it call
for doublers? I haven't seen that on the inspection holes on the tail
or wings. Am I missing something or does this come later?
Michael
(in NH)
do not archive
On 10/17/06, Dave Ruddiman <pacificpainting@comcast.net> wrote:
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for
inspection plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why
I can't dimple and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and
would hold a small flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to
the skin, wouldn't it be about the same?
Dave in Salem
Message 17
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| Subject: | Inspection covers. |
Dave,
Your question is worthy. Unfortunately, there are many different answers
depending on one's preference. Whether .016 needs a doubler is probably more
relevant than .025. You just have to make the decision yourself..caffeine /
no caffeine, Mac / PC, tri-cycle / taildragger, green scotchbrite / purple
scotchbrite, center yoke / dual sticks..so many decisions...
Making a flush mount inspection plate is an easy task and looks real cool.
Consider it. If you decide to make any kind of screw-on inspection cover, be
sure to make the screw pattern an obvious indication of which direction the
plate goes on. If you have multiple plates, mark them to show placement.
Life will be better.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Ruddiman
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
I'm not challenging any of the advice about the covers. I'm not concerned
about drag. The 801 isn't exactly a low drag air frame. I also considered
whether the plates would become part of the structure of the wing skin. The
wing assembly manual says I can cut a 95mm access hole. Mine is 100mm. It
also says to make a 135mm round cover and use 6 A4 rivets. My cover is 140mm
and I have 8 holes which I have only pilot drilled. I was originally going
to use doublers and nut plates, then decided to just rivet the plates to the
skin. Now I have thought about using nut plates again. It seems like I am
making a big issue out of something that should be simple. Or maybe not.
Dave in Salem
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN <mailto:jhstarn@verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
NO..... The doubler is to spread the "load" of flexing around the hole as a
whole. Individual nutplates DO NOT spread the flex and can be the cause for
cracks as they localize it. Besides if you use a doubler that leaves a 1/2"
lip inside the hole & attach nut plates to the back of that flange the
inspection cover will fit flush and add addition strength to the area. Flush
rivet the doublers and make it part of the permanent structure. No square
corners, radius them & those of the removable panel. I would also use .032
for the doubler and make it one piece. On the Rocket we used .040 on the
.032 skins. KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave <mailto:pacificpainting@comcast.net> Ruddiman
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for inspection
plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why I can't dimple
and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and would hold a small
flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to the skin, wouldn't it
be about the same?
Dave in Salem
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
Gary,
Caffeine, PC, tri-cycle, green scotchbrite, (apparently it is
Un-American to use any othe color), center yoke. Flush plates look good,
but I won't be able to see the top of the wing without a ladder. I did
make a tiny little notch towards the leading edge of the plates. Another
thing, hopefully these things never have to be taken off. I've got to
quit making things so difficult. I feel so much better now that I've
made all these decisions.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Dave,
Your question is worthy. Unfortunately, there are many different
answers depending on one's preference. Whether .016 needs a doubler is
probably more relevant than .025. You just have to make the decision
yourself..caffeine / no caffeine, Mac / PC, tri-cycle / taildragger,
green scotchbrite / purple scotchbrite, center yoke / dual sticks..so
many decisions...
Making a flush mount inspection plate is an easy task and looks real
cool. Consider it. If you decide to make any kind of screw-on inspection
cover, be sure to make the screw pattern an obvious indication of which
direction the plate goes on. If you have multiple plates, mark them to
show placement. Life will be better.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Ruddiman
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:07 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
I'm not challenging any of the advice about the covers. I'm not
concerned about drag. The 801 isn't exactly a low drag air frame. I also
considered whether the plates would become part of the structure of the
wing skin. The wing assembly manual says I can cut a 95mm access hole.
Mine is 100mm. It also says to make a 135mm round cover and use 6 A4
rivets. My cover is 140mm and I have 8 holes which I have only pilot
drilled. I was originally going to use doublers and nut plates, then
decided to just rivet the plates to the skin. Now I have thought about
using nut plates again. It seems like I am making a big issue out of
something that should be simple. Or maybe not.
Dave in Salem
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
NO..... The doubler is to spread the "load" of flexing around the
hole as a whole. Individual nutplates DO NOT spread the flex and can be
the cause for cracks as they localize it. Besides if you use a doubler
that leaves a 1/2" lip inside the hole & attach nut plates to the back
of that flange the inspection cover will fit flush and add addition
strength to the area. Flush rivet the doublers and make it part of the
permanent structure. No square corners, radius them & those of the
removable panel. I would also use .032 for the doubler and make it one
piece. On the Rocket we used .040 on the .032 skins. KABONG Do Not
Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for
inspection plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why
I can't dimple and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and
would hold a small flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to
the skin, wouldn't it be about the same?
Dave in Salem
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Inspection covers. |
Dave,
Now you've done it!! You just condemned yourself to multiple removals.
Gary - Do not archive
...Another thing, hopefully these things never have to be taken off...
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe <mailto:gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Dave,
Your question is worthy. Unfortunately, there are many different answers
depending on one's preference. Whether .016 needs a doubler is probably more
relevant than .025. You just have to make the decision yourself..caffeine /
no caffeine, Mac / PC, tri-cycle / taildragger, green scotchbrite / purple
scotchbrite, center yoke / dual sticks..so many decisions...
Making a flush mount inspection plate is an easy task and looks real cool.
Consider it. If you decide to make any kind of screw-on inspection cover, be
sure to make the screw pattern an obvious indication of which direction the
plate goes on. If you have multiple plates, mark them to show placement.
Life will be better.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Ruddiman
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
I'm not challenging any of the advice about the covers. I'm not concerned
about drag. The 801 isn't exactly a low drag air frame. I also considered
whether the plates would become part of the structure of the wing skin. The
wing assembly manual says I can cut a 95mm access hole. Mine is 100mm. It
also says to make a 135mm round cover and use 6 A4 rivets. My cover is 140mm
and I have 8 holes which I have only pilot drilled. I was originally going
to use doublers and nut plates, then decided to just rivet the plates to the
skin. Now I have thought about using nut plates again. It seems like I am
making a big issue out of something that should be simple. Or maybe not.
Dave in Salem
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN <mailto:jhstarn@verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
NO..... The doubler is to spread the "load" of flexing around the hole as a
whole. Individual nutplates DO NOT spread the flex and can be the cause for
cracks as they localize it. Besides if you use a doubler that leaves a 1/2"
lip inside the hole & attach nut plates to the back of that flange the
inspection cover will fit flush and add addition strength to the area. Flush
rivet the doublers and make it part of the permanent structure. No square
corners, radius them & those of the removable panel. I would also use .032
for the doubler and make it one piece. On the Rocket we used .040 on the
.032 skins. KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave <mailto:pacificpainting@comcast.net> Ruddiman
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for inspection
plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why I can't dimple
and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and would hold a small
flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to the skin, wouldn't it
be about the same?
Dave in Salem
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Mounting ELT in 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@skyhawg.com>
If you will check my site you will find I put an access door in the bottom
near the rear. Then I used two pieces of 3"X1/8" aluminum flat stock to
make a platform from side to side just inside of the door. They are riveted
to the lonerons. There I mounted my ELT. I also ended up having to mount
a battery in the back for CG purposes. I couldn't have installed either one
without the door. Zenith cuts a lot of corners in the name of lightness.
What they don't seem to care about is having to inspect or do maintenance at
some time in the future. It's sorta like building a boat in the basement.
I also believe in inspection plates. My wings came with 12 per wing and I
added four more on top. And, they have doublers. There is almost nothing
on my plane I can't get to. All in all maybe I added 2 pounds but it's
worth it not to have to pull skin off or cut holes at some later date, and
it will happen.
Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Mounting ELT in 701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
> I went to mount my ELT in my 701 today and hit a snag. Where do I mount
> it? The instructions with the ELT say "The mounting surface must be
> extremely rigid; therefore, mounting the ELT directly to the aircraft skin
> is unacceptable."
> There is no surface in the tail of the 701 large enough to mount the ELT
> except the skin. Have others added material attached to the longerons and
> then mounted the ELT to that?
> The installation specification states that the center line of the ELT must
> be mounted within 10 degrees of the direction of flight. Well, the bottom
> of the tail is slanted up more than 10 degrees so this means that to meet
> this specification a bracket would need to be made even of I were to
> attach the ELT to the bottom of the tail.
> Do the DAR's look at this; and is meeting RTCA DO-183 paragraph 3.1.8
> required?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68609#68609
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
Gary,
You know, having my computer in the shop is almost as bad as leaving the
door open at the airport when you are trying to get something done. I
guess I don't have to stop and read the emails, but that part of the fun
of the whole process. I wouldn't want to be left out.
Dave
I keep forgetting the DO NOT ARCHIVE part.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Dave,
Now you've done it!! You just condemned yourself to multiple removals.
Gary - Do not archive
...Another thing, hopefully these things never have to be taken off...
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Dave,
Your question is worthy. Unfortunately, there are many different
answers depending on one's preference. Whether .016 needs a doubler is
probably more relevant than .025. You just have to make the decision
yourself..caffeine / no caffeine, Mac / PC, tri-cycle / taildragger,
green scotchbrite / purple scotchbrite, center yoke / dual sticks..so
many decisions...
Making a flush mount inspection plate is an easy task and looks real
cool. Consider it. If you decide to make any kind of screw-on inspection
cover, be sure to make the screw pattern an obvious indication of which
direction the plate goes on. If you have multiple plates, mark them to
show placement. Life will be better.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Ruddiman
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:07 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
I'm not challenging any of the advice about the covers. I'm not
concerned about drag. The 801 isn't exactly a low drag air frame. I also
considered whether the plates would become part of the structure of the
wing skin. The wing assembly manual says I can cut a 95mm access hole.
Mine is 100mm. It also says to make a 135mm round cover and use 6 A4
rivets. My cover is 140mm and I have 8 holes which I have only pilot
drilled. I was originally going to use doublers and nut plates, then
decided to just rivet the plates to the skin. Now I have thought about
using nut plates again. It seems like I am making a big issue out of
something that should be simple. Or maybe not.
Dave in Salem
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
NO..... The doubler is to spread the "load" of flexing around the
hole as a whole. Individual nutplates DO NOT spread the flex and can be
the cause for cracks as they localize it. Besides if you use a doubler
that leaves a 1/2" lip inside the hole & attach nut plates to the back
of that flange the inspection cover will fit flush and add addition
strength to the area. Flush rivet the doublers and make it part of the
permanent structure. No square corners, radius them & those of the
removable panel. I would also use .032 for the doubler and make it one
piece. On the Rocket we used .040 on the .032 skins. KABONG Do Not
Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Ruddiman
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection covers.
Hello Fellow Listers,
Can anyone tell me why I would have to put doublers on for
inspection plates. I have the plates and skins drilled. I don't see why
I can't dimple and flush rivet nut plates to the skin. It's .025 and
would hold a small flush rivet OK. If the plates were riveted direct to
the skin, wouldn't it be about the same?
Dave in Salem
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Mounting ELT in 701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cffd@pgrb.com>
Doug,
I put a doubler in the right rear corner of the baggage compartment floor
and mounted the ELT bracket there. Mine has a portable antenna so I wanted
to make it where I could get to it to remove it easily.
Chuck D.
N701TX
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Mounting ELT in 701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
> I went to mount my ELT in my 701 today and hit a snag. Where do I mount
it? The instructions with the ELT say "The mounting surface must be
extremely rigid; therefore, mounting the ELT directly to the aircraft skin
is unacceptable."
> There is no surface in the tail of the 701 large enough to mount the ELT
except the skin. Have others added material attached to the longerons and
then mounted the ELT to that?
> The installation specification states that the center line of the ELT must
be mounted within 10 degrees of the direction of flight. Well, the bottom
of the tail is slanted up more than 10 degrees so this means that to meet
this specification a bracket would need to be made even of I were to attach
the ELT to the bottom of the tail.
> Do the DAR's look at this; and is meeting RTCA DO-183 paragraph 3.1.8
required?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68609#68609
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
I believe that in a stressed skin design (like the 701 and 601) adding an inspection
hole is the same as making a repair to the skin. AC 43.13-1B covers procedures
for repairs of damaged skins. The repair that covers a 3" hole, using
only material of the same thickness as the skin, requires two circles of rivets
(24 rivets total). That is a lot more rivets (or screws) than you would put
into an inspection cover. I don't know where the design data is for an inspection
cover, but clearly it is not enough to repair a 3 or 4 inch hole with just
6 or 8 screws. (see AC43.13-1B section 4-58 ).
Remember that unlike a tube and fabric design, most of the strength of your aircraft
is obtained from the skin. Unless you know the stresses that will be applied
to each particular part of the skin, you should probably assume that it
is critical to not weaken it wherever an inspection opening is added.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68666#68666
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Ahh there is light at the end of this tunnel, thanks Doug
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68669#68669
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Inspection covers. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" <pacificpainting@comcast.net>
Not to complicate things any more, or keep this subject going, but what
about the holes in the skin for the fuel tank caps? Would I be correct in
assuming that there might be less stress because they are somewhat smaller
and are fairly close to both the spar and a rib? Just curious. It's time to
get this done and move on.
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:35 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Inspection covers.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "doug kandle" <d_kandle@velocitus.net>
>
> I believe that in a stressed skin design (like the 701 and 601) adding an
> inspection hole is the same as making a repair to the skin. AC 43.13-1B
> covers procedures for repairs of damaged skins. The repair that covers a
> 3" hole, using only material of the same thickness as the skin, requires
> two circles of rivets (24 rivets total). That is a lot more rivets (or
> screws) than you would put into an inspection cover. I don't know where
> the design data is for an inspection cover, but clearly it is not enough
> to repair a 3 or 4 inch hole with just 6 or 8 screws. (see AC43.13-1B
> section 4-58 ).
> Remember that unlike a tube and fabric design, most of the strength of
> your aircraft is obtained from the skin. Unless you know the stresses
> that will be applied to each particular part of the skin, you should
> probably assume that it is critical to not weaken it wherever an
> inspection opening is added.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68666#68666
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Wing Spar mysteries or how to make a left a right |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave" <dclaytx2@hotmail.com>
Way to go Ron. You do such high quality work. Your precise approach paid off in
saving you from the task of making another spar web.
The fact that a builder of your stature can make a mistake lets me feel a little
less angst over blunders I have made along the way.
Thanks,
Dave Clay
601XL Scratch Builder
Temple, TX
www.daves601xl.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68676#68676
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Off topic: my next airplane |
-- Craig
Do Not Archive
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