Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:13 AM - Re: Who's going to the Rudder Workshop next week? (Harrison-Hutcheson)
2. 05:40 AM - Re: slats / no slats / time out (Juan Vega)
3. 06:00 AM - Re: Antenna(s) (Noel Loveys)
4. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? (Tommy Walker)
5. 06:21 AM - Re: Antenna(s) (Craig Payne)
6. 06:24 AM - Re: 701 vs ??? (LRM)
7. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? (NYTerminat@aol.com)
8. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? (ron wehba)
9. 08:11 AM - roll over protection/ "changing the plans" (Big Gee)
10. 10:00 AM - Re: Slats & VG's (EMAproducts@aol.com)
11. 10:50 AM - 701/912S colder weather operations (billmileski)
12. 11:04 AM - Re: Antenna(s) (Eddie G.)
13. 11:21 AM - Re: 701/912S colder weather operations (NYTerminat@aol.com)
14. 11:49 AM - Andair fuel valve. (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_Gestur?=)
15. 12:30 PM - Re: 701/912S colder weather operations (Mike Fothergill)
16. 12:34 PM - Re: 701/912S colder weather operations (Dave Austin)
17. 12:36 PM - Re: 701/912S colder weather operations (billmileski)
18. 12:54 PM - Mamual flaps on the 601XL? (Wade Jones)
19. 01:02 PM - Re: Antenna(s) (Bryan Martin)
20. 01:18 PM - Re: 701/912S colder weather operations (Hugh Roberts)
21. 01:33 PM - Re: Mamual flaps on the 601XL? (N5SL)
22. 02:49 PM - Re: Antenna(s) (Gig Giacona)
23. 03:20 PM - Re: Electric flap actuator (Big Gee)
24. 03:46 PM - Re: Mamual flaps on the 601XL? (Wade Jones)
25. 04:05 PM - Vg's, Slats, Strut fairings STOL 701 (Tom and Joyce Schulke)
26. 05:12 PM - XL Wingtip trimming (Tim Juhl)
27. 05:27 PM - Re: Mamual flaps on the 601XL? (Craig Payne)
28. 06:21 PM - Historic Zenair Zipper for sale (MacDonald Doug)
29. 07:03 PM - Re: Historic Zenair Zipper for sale (Peter Chapman)
30. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: 701/912S colder weather operations (NYTerminat@aol.com)
31. 07:52 PM - Re: 701/912S colder weather operations (NYTerminat@aol.com)
32. 07:56 PM - Re: Historic Zenair Zipper for sale (MacDonald Doug)
33. 09:28 PM - Re: 701 vs ??? (JohnDRead@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Who's going to the Rudder Workshop next week? |
For the workshop in Mexico MO you might want to consider the Bed &
Breakfast located in town - sure beats the local motels and the
breakfast was fantastic.
Sam H.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: slats / no slats / time out |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Big,
How do you get roll over protection from gul wing doors? I respect your perspective
on the bubble canopy, but I am trying to understand the gull wing theory.
How do they help in a roll over?
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Big Gee <taffy0687@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Nov 1, 2006 9:58 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: slats / no slats / time out
>
>Larry (and list)--- I don't want to start another "skotch-brite" discussion here.
But Larry, you have to admit what that company did was; copy more than a
basic idea. You give as examples " basic ideas". I am not talking about that,
I am talking about taking someones plans, making modifications to those plans
and than marketing the product as if it was their own design (plans) it is
wrong.--------- some on this list will agree with me, some will agree with you,
and none of this will change the other fellows way of thinking.---------time
out-
> Fritz--- 601 XL--90/90-- Corvair
>
>do not archive
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: LRM <lrm@skyhawg.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 8:11:36 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??
>
>
>Chris Heintz appears to be a nice person and I certainly admire him for his accomplishments.
But this ""copies " of the 701" I keep hearing from several sources
needs examining. I can't speak to a 601, I know very little about it.
>
>The only thing I know of on a 701 that is unique and I'm not sure about that,
is the inverted horizontal. Everything else is a copy. Slats, thick wings, high
tails, that's all been around for years, pre-WWII. So basically what I am
saying is that no one has done anything to Chris, Chris didn't do to someone
else. He copied stuff and put it together. He put it together in a nice package,
but for all practical purposes it's still copies. As for as I know there
are no really new designs it a while, they are all copies of some sort or another.
No one did anything wrong to Chris, if anything, they improved on his
copy of a copy of a copy. Each one, hopefully, is an improvement on the last.
>
>Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Big Gee
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:29 PM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??
>
>
>Hi Bill, I didn't intend my reply as directly to you. I have tried sending emails
directly to this site by typing the address in. They go out but do not
get posted. ------- So now, I hit "reply" to a letter and they get posted.
I do try to pick a letter which is very close to the subject and I do try to reword
the "subject" so it will be approperiate. I do not intend to offend anyone.
> I am familiar with the "copies " of the 701 and the 60l. I think it is wrong
what that company did to Chris Heintz .
>I scratch built and flew a 701 and I would be the first one to admit that a faster
cruise speed, less fuel consumption would be great, but at what cost ? and
to who? I built a 701, registered it as a 701, and insured it as a 701.
>
>In my opinion, taking the slats off is a major modification and entering the
ralm of "experimental". Yes I think "experimental " is great. But once ertering
that ralm, one should admit it, and register the aircraft as such,(by this
I mean, do not call it a 701) and pay the insurance premimums as necessary.
Not doing this only makes it harder on others i.e. "scratch building".
> ( It could get to the point where Chris H. doesn't want to sell plans or suport
the "scratch builder.) It is not fair for anyone to make a major modification
to an airplane and than use the "proven safety record" of the original design
to save money on insurance etc. Not only that, but the insurance company
would most likely refuse to pay a claim if they know the airplane was modified
to such an extreme.
>
>Concerning modification and experimental airplanes. I have said from the begining
that I do not like the "bubble canopy" on the 601. (no roll over protection)
So, on my 601 (scratch building) I am using a fixed windshield, gullwing
doors, with added roll-over bar just forward, and higher than the existing two
aluminum tubes just aft of the pilots head. My canopy, no doubt, would be considered
"ugly" by some. ( I have the canopy frame, jigged up and ready for welding.)
It will look like a cross between the Ch 2000 and an Eurcope. Will
I still consider it a 601? Yes. I plan on getting Chris' approval after I have
my canopy finished and I can send Chris some pictures and measurements.
There are several pictures of 601's with gullwing doors on Zenith's website.
>
>Happy building
>Fritz-- 601XL--90/90--- Corvair
>do not archive
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: billmileski <mileski@sonalysts.com>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 10:52:10 AM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??
>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
>
>Fritz,
>
>That's a good point. And one that might very well discourage me from giving it
a try.
>
>That said, I'm not redesigning anything. I'm just discussing several peoples'
reported experience with trying a different configuration.
>
>I'm sure there are some people who self-insure, or take an insurance hit when
deciding to use something other than the factory recommended engine installation,
for example.
>
>This is about what turns people on about experimental aircraft.
>
>Bill
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71549#71549</&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;- target="_blank" Navigator?Zenith-List? ronics.com Zenith-List The>http://www.matronics.com/sp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -; -Matt Drallcom/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution===========
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
>
>
>Date: 11/1/2006
>
>===================
>
_-
_-
_-
_-
_-
_-
Message 3
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There are all sorts of methods that can be used to increase band spread
on a
Com antenna. I think the most important of these is to have a good
ground
plane. I've seen a few ... OK more than a few antennas that were
mounted to
a corroded mess. and then the operator was wondering why the radio
doesn't
work. When installing a Com antenna or a VOR antenna into a composite
aircraft allowances should be made for the installation of a good ground
plane. Allowances should also be made for any metal ( hinges etc )
within
three feet of the antenna that may act as parasitic elements.
A point that I didn't make on the ELT is that there are two frequencies
commonly in use for ELT. 121.5MHz VHF and double that frequency 243MHz
UHF.
If your ELT has the UHF transmitter then you will actually need another
antenna..
Starting to look like a forest Eh.
I never mentioned the transponder antenna but you make a valid point
about
it being on the bottom of the plane so as not to shadow the earth
station.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Martin
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Antenna(s)
The nav and com radios operate in the nearly the same frequency band but
the
transponder operates at a much higher frequency band. The transponder
antenna is usually a short (~1 1/2") spike antenna mounted on the belly
of
the airplane. You can pick one up for about $15 at Aircraft Spruce.
The VOR signal used by the nav receiver is transmitted with a horizontal
polarization because that results in less distortion of the signal. It
requires a horizontally polarized antenna to recieve a decent signal. I
built my own Nav antenna from a couple of FM whip antennas, a PVC pipe
cap
and some coax cable for about $15 in parts. I mounted it on top of the
rudder and it works pretty well. You don't need to spend a lot of money
to
get good results.
For the com radio you should use a wide band antenna to get decent
function
across the entire com band. A simple wire whip is only good for a narrow
band of frequencies. You could make a com antenna out of copper tape
embedded in a fiberglass shell. It needs to be mounted vertically. Any
commercially available antenna designed for the com band will work as
long
as it's installed properly.
Jim Weir has published some articles on how to make your own antennas in
KitPlanes magazine. I the artcles are available on his website
http://www.rst-engr.com/
A general rule of thumb is to mount any transmitter antennas at least
three
feet from any other antenna to reduce the chance of interference.
On Nov 1, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
although all three are in approximately the same frequency range the Nav
antenna is usually horizontally polarized while the Com and the ELT are
vertical. In short you will need three antennae. the type of antennae
will
depend on the speed of your plane.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Harrison-Hutcheson
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Antenna(s)
I have just ordered NAV/COM (King KX-125) and Transponder (Garmin
GTX-327) -
and am of the understanding that I will need 3 antennas. One for COM,
one
for NAV, and one for transponder.
Any suggestions (both source and item numbers) for what to purchase?
Which
units seem to work better? Which units seem to always cause problems.
Appreciate any feedback.
Sam H.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? |
Bob,
Keep us informed about the results of your fairings....
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive....
...Meantime my strut fairings just arrived and I will se how much
difference
they make....
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/ CH701/ 912S/ 87 hrs
Message 5
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The latest ELTs also send on 406 MHz - my Artex ME406 came with a
triple-band antenna.
-- Craig
Message 6
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No "scotch-brite" again please. My only point was to point out that
Chris basically put together others ideas into a very nice package. He
is thought of by many on this list as the "Holly Man of Airplanes" or
"only living expert". He is just a very smart man who was wise enough
to take a bunch of other peoples ideas and build a nice airplane to make
a living. I wish I had done it. Some of you seem to think that if
Chris says it, it must be right. I really question that train of
thought. There is absolutely nothing, I repeat absolutely, that cannot
be improved or changed. I think I know the 701 as well as most here and
better than some and it has lots of areas that need changing. Let me
rephrase that, that could use changing not necessarily need changing.
And, you are right I disagree with you. The plane you are talking about
is totally different than the 701, no two parts interchange. Everything
is different, some look alike but basically it's just another STOL. You
might as well say Chris took the plans for the Fiesler Storch or the
Helio Courier and changed them. Well, he sorta did!!!!!!!!! But, so
what!!!!
Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Big Gee
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 8:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: slats / no slats / time out
Larry (and list)--- I don't want to start another "skotch-brite"
discussion here. But Larry, you have to admit what that company did
was; copy more than a basic idea. You give as examples " basic
ideas". I am not talking about that, I am talking about taking someones
plans, making modifications to those plans and than marketing the
product as if it was their own design (plans) it is wrong.--------- some
on this list will agree with me, some will agree with you, and none of
this will change the other fellows way of thinking.---------time out-
Fritz--- 601 XL--90/90-- Corvair
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: LRM <lrm@skyhawg.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 8:11:36 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??
Chris Heintz appears to be a nice person and I certainly admire him
for his accomplishments. But this ""copies " of the 701" I keep hearing
from several sources needs examining. I can't speak to a 601, I know
very little about it.
The only thing I know of on a 701 that is unique and I'm not sure
about that, is the inverted horizontal. Everything else is a copy.
Slats, thick wings, high tails, that's all been around for years,
pre-WWII. So basically what I am saying is that no one has done
anything to Chris, Chris didn't do to someone else. He copied stuff and
put it together. He put it together in a nice package, but for all
practical purposes it's still copies. As for as I know there are no
really new designs it a while, they are all copies of some sort or
another. No one did anything wrong to Chris, if anything, they
improved on his copy of a copy of a copy. Each one, hopefully, is an
improvement on the last.
Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Big Gee
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems
??
Hi Bill, I didn't intend my reply as directly to you. I have tried
sending emails directly to this site by typing the address in. They go
out but do not get posted. ------- So now, I hit "reply" to a letter
and they get posted. I do try to pick a letter which is very close to
the subject and I do try to reword the "subject" so it will be
approperiate. I do not intend to offend anyone.
I am familiar with the "copies " of the 701 and the 60l. I think
it is wrong what that company did to Chris Heintz .
I scratch built and flew a 701 and I would be the first one to
admit that a faster cruise speed, less fuel consumption would be great,
but at what cost ? and to who? I built a 701, registered it as a 701,
and insured it as a 701.
In my opinion, taking the slats off is a major modification and
entering the ralm of "experimental". Yes I think "experimental " is
great. But once ertering that ralm, one should admit it, and register
the aircraft as such,(by this I mean, do not call it a 701) and pay the
insurance premimums as necessary. Not doing this only makes it harder
on others i.e. "scratch building".
( It could get to the point where Chris H. doesn't want to sell
plans or suport the "scratch builder.) It is not fair for anyone to
make a major modification to an airplane and than use the "proven safety
record" of the original design to save money on insurance etc. Not only
that, but the insurance company would most likely refuse to pay a claim
if they know the airplane was modified to such an extreme.
Concerning modification and experimental airplanes. I have said
from the begining that I do not like the "bubble canopy" on the 601.
(no roll over protection) So, on my 601 (scratch building) I am using a
fixed windshield, gullwing doors, with added roll-over bar just forward,
and higher than the existing two aluminum tubes just aft of the pilots
head. My canopy, no doubt, would be considered "ugly" by some. ( I have
the canopy frame, jigged up and ready for welding.) It will look like
a cross between the Ch 2000 and an Eurcope. Will I still consider it a
601? Yes. I plan on getting Chris' approval after I have my canopy
finished and I can send Chris some pictures and measurements. There
are several pictures of 601's with gullwing doors on Zenith's website.
Happy building
Fritz-- 601XL--90/90--- Corvair
do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: billmileski <mileski@sonalysts.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 10:52:10 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "billmileski"
<mileski@sonalysts.com>
Fritz,
That's a good point. And one that might very well discourage me
from giving it a try.
That said, I'm not redesigning anything. I'm just discussing several
peoples' reported experience with trying a different configuration.
I'm sure there are some people who self-insure, or take an insurance
hit when deciding to use something other than the factory recommended
engine installation, for example.
This is about what turns people on about experimental aircraft.
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71549#71549</&NBSP;&NBSP;&N
BSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;- target="_blank"
Navigator?Zenith-List? ronics.com Zenith-List
The>http://www.matronics.com/sp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -; -Matt Drallcom/contribution"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=======
====
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
http://wiki.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http:==================
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-----
11/1/2006
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? |
Tommy,
I have good news and bad news. One of the strut fairings that I received
from Streamline had a slight crack in the extrusion. I spoke with Streamline and
he called back with the bad news and said do not install any of them, they
just inspected the whole batch and there is a problem with all of them. They
have to run a whole new batch, I guess there was a problem with the die. I
guess the good news is I don't have to pull my struts yet.
Do not archive
Bob Spudis
N701ZX
In a message dated 11/2/2006 9:19:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
twalker@cableone.net writes:
Bob,
Keep us informed about the results of your fairings....
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive....
...Meantime my strut fairings just arrived and I will se how much
difference
they make....
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/ CH701/ 912S/ 87 hrs
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? |
for what it is worth,, vg's must have something going for them have
noticed several 18 wheelers with them down the sides of the cab at the
back,, must do something to the airflow between the cab and trailer. oh
and they are about 3" wide 3" long and taper.
----- Original Message -----
From: NYTerminat@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??
After reading the information on StolSpeed Aerodynamics website , I am
inclined to order and try the VGs. It sounds as if they have done quite
a bit of flight testing both on the Savannah and the 701, as well as
others. They have taken a lot of the risk out of the no slat flying. The
CG does not appear to be a problem, The short field stall perfomance is
still there and you fly faster, and use less fuel. Also the website says
that the Savannah is coming out with a no slat model with the VGs. There
must be something to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Meantime my strut fairings just arrived and I will se how much
difference they make.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX/ CH701/ 912S/ 87 hrs
In a message dated 11/1/2006 6:49:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes:
Ladies,
remember all the other modsyou will have to make. The plane is
designed for slats so the distance to the prop will be changed. You may
need to move the wing forward. Maybe. CG wil be affected since leading
edge of foil is moved back. Elevator. It was designed to pushg the
tail down and let the Slat bite into the air. The same pitch tendency
will stall the plane if you don't get rid of the upside down foil.
Other than that, if the guy wants to remove the slats , let him move the
slats. thats the fun of it all. Maybe it will work so well that the
Savanah producers will "borrow " that design as well. Ouch, sore
subject.
Juan
Message 9
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| Subject: | roll over protection/ "changing the plans" |
Juan-----This was discussed in detail in earlier threads on this list and I
hate to rehash it again. But, I will answer your question. =0A =0AThe R
OLL- OVER protection comes from the structural cage built to support the g
ull wing doors, fixed windshield and the added ROLL-OVER bar.-------------
Yes, the gull-wing doors might be impossible to open when inverted, but so
would the bubble canopy. That is why, there was quite a bit of discussi
on on this list about having a "break-out" knife in the cockpit at all time
s, similar to the ones in the old F-100 airplane (USAF). Your chances of
being conscious after a roll over are much better with the roll-over protec
tion and therefore you are more apt to be able to use the "break-out " knif
e to exit the airplane. (just my opinion)=0A =0ALarry--I have no objecti
on to someone departing from the plans----- I think it is great. I had v
isited the site on the "no slat" system and your site. I commend you on y
our accomplishments. I commend you on the way you registered your airpla
ne----- you did not call it a CH-701.=0A =0ATo me, I think the person that
is increasing the 701 by 10 percent ( he has everything approved by Chris H
. is going to have one of the most practical (701 ?) around. I think you
are misinterpreting what I am saying. That is: do what you want, enter t
he realm of experimental, BUT, call a spade a spade, if you make major ch
anges that change the flight characteristics to the airframe do not call it
a 701. I.E. if you buy the plans for a 701 (Zenith has their money), bu
ild the airplane with MAJOR changes you have done nothing wrong as long as
you don't call it a CH 701 or do anything to market "your design". I fee
l the agreement with Zenith is: one set of plans means you build one airpla
ne.=0A=0AI also agree that there are areas in which the 701 can be improved
. But, without slats ( they preform a specic funtion to the airflow, which
votec generatons CANNOT duplicate) it is going to extemely easy to enter (
very quickly) a higher angle of attack than the modified wing can handle th
us producing a unexpected stall. =0A=0AFritz=0A=0A =0AFrom: Juan Vega <amy
vega2005@earthlink.net>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, N
ovember 2, 2006 8:40:23 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: slats / no slats / t
ime out=0A=0A=0A--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@e
arthlink.net>=0A=0ABig,=0A=0AHow do you get roll over protection from gul w
ing doors? I respect your perspective on the bubble canopy, but I am tryin
g to understand the gull wing theory. How do they help in a roll over?=0A
=0AJuan=0A=0A>=0A>=0A>----- Original Message ----=0A>From: LRM <lrm@skyhawg
.com>=0A>To: zenith-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2006
8:11:36 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance p
=================0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Slats & VG's |
In a message dated 11/2/2006 2:31:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
zenith-list@matronics.com writes:
The only thing I know of on a 701 that is unique and I'm not sure about
that, is the inverted horizontal.
Look at a Boeing 737 horizontal tail some time, then look at the LE devices
(slats) and VG's all over the airfoils wings, horizontal tail, and rudder!
This is true on nearly all transport aircraft. All aircraft fly using the
same laws of physics.
These are not copied, but are used from known aerodynamic testing. IF the
wings got the same lift without slats (and aileron control at high AOA) why
would Boeing, Airbus, and in the past Douglas put them on their aircraft at the
cost of millions of dollars during a production run. There is a reason for
each item there, the engineer who chooses the aerodynamically correct items
has the best performing ~ and last but definitely not least safest flying
plane.
Elbie Mendenhall
CFI continually since 1962; ATP CE-500, B-737, DC-9
45 years of flying both work & play
EAA 38308 EAA Flight Advisor
Message 11
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| Subject: | 701/912S colder weather operations |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
List,
My 701 will be entering its first New England winter, and I have had marginal oil
temps already. I do have an oil thermostat on the shelf in the hangar, but
am wondering whether to add the complexity or just tape over the oil cooler.
How are you others operating in the cooler outdoor temps doing, and what would
you suggest?
Thanks,
Bill Mileski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71836#71836
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie G." <SilentLight@verizon.net>
Hi,
I am a newbie to the list and since you brought up the VOR antennas, I was
hoping you folks can help me out with this.... My plans are to build an IFR
601. My rudder kit is on order and hopefully will get here next week. Would
it make sense to install 2 VOR antennas on the rudder the same way Cessna
installs them on the 172 tail? Wouldn't the antenna coax wires get in the
way of rudder's operation? From which direction should I route the wires
out of the rudder (2 antenna, 1 tail light, 1 rotating beacon wire)?
Thanx...Eddie
Los Angeles, CA
-----------------------------
Time: 09:34:01 PM PST US
From: Bryan Martin
Subject: Re: Antenna(s)
The nav and com radios operate in the nearly the same frequency band but
the transponder operates at a much higher frequency band. The transponder
antenna is usually a short (~1 1/2") spike antenna mounted on the belly of
the airplane. You can pick one up for about $15 at Aircraft Spruce. The VOR
signal used by the nav receiver is transmitted with a horizontal
polarization because that results in less distortion of the signal. It
requires a horizontally polarized antenna to recieve a decent signal. I
built my own Nav antenna from a couple of FM whip antennas, a PVC pipe cap
and some coax cable for about $15 in parts. I mounted it on top of the
rudder and it works pretty well. You don't need to spend a lot of money to
get good results. For the com radio you should use a wide band antenna to
get decent function across the entire com band. A simple wire whip is only
good for a narrow band of frequencies. You could make a com antenna out of
copper tape embedded in a fiberglass shell. It needs to be mounted
vertically. Any commercially available antenna designed for the com band
will work as long as it's installed properly. Jim Weir has published some
articles on how to make your own antennas in KitPlanes magazine. I the
artcles are available on his website http://www.rst-engr.com/ A general
rule of thumb is to mount any transmitter antennas at least three feet from
any other antenna to reduce the chance of interference.
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 701/912S colder weather operations |
Bill,
I installed an oil t-stat and am very happy with it. Even during the summer
months, the warm up before the run up is quicker, in the winter it keeps the
temps around 180 degrees. I used to tape over my oil cooler but with the
Skyshops firewall forward installation it blocked the air to the muffler and
reduced the heat output to the cockpit. T-stat is the way to go.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX 912s/87hrs
In a message dated 11/2/2006 1:52:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mileski@sonalysts.com writes:
List,
My 701 will be entering its first New England winter, and I have had
marginal oil temps already. I do have an oil thermostat on the shelf in the hangar,
but am wondering whether to add the complexity or just tape over the oil
cooler. How are you others operating in the cooler outdoor temps doing, and
what would you suggest?
Thanks,
Bill Mileski
Message 14
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| Subject: | Andair fuel valve. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_Gestur?= <joeing701@internet.is>
Hello list members.
I am about to install the andair fuel valve on my Zenith 701. It will be
located behind the passangers door in the luggage compartment wall. Does
Zenith have any drawings for this installation or is it originated from
Czech aircraft?
Thanks,
Johann G.
Iceland.
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 701/912S colder weather operations |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi;
Duct tape the rad as the temps get lower. By now, my oil cooler is
completely covered. Some of the water rad is also covered.
Mike
CH-601HDS 1000+ hrs (10 winters)
UHS Spinners
billmileski wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
>
> List,
> My 701 will be entering its first New England winter, and I have had marginal
oil temps already. I do have an oil thermostat on the shelf in the hangar, but
am wondering whether to add the complexity or just tape over the oil cooler.
How are you others operating in the cooler outdoor temps doing, and what would
you suggest?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Mileski
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71836#71836
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 701/912S colder weather operations |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@can.rogers.com>
Bill,
I just put aluminium tape over the oil cooler - one strip for the fall and
then complete cover when it really gets cold.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 701/912S colder weather operations |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
Thanks, Bob. If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me where you put it, and if
you needed 90 degree adapter(s) on the oil cooler, or anything else that might
help. And a six pack of your favorite expensive beer, if you ever visit CT,
if you could offer up a pic or two!
Bill
guess I should be better at using:
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71862#71862
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| Subject: | Mamual flaps on the 601XL? |
Hello group ,I started welding up the flap components today .I may be
overlooking the flap controls on the plans ,are they only electrically
controlled .If possible I would rather have manual controls . Thanks
Wade Jones
Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
The top of the vertical tail is a good place for the VOR antenna
because it keeps it away from any large pieces of horizontal metal
structures that might interfere with reception. That's why most
manufacturers put it there. And since the antenna is omni-
directional, the motion of the rudder on the 601 won't affect the
reception. Those two metal whips actually form one antenna and you
will have only one antenna cable feeding from them.
My wires come out of the rudder above the top hinge and are arranged
so that a few inches of the wire bundle runs parallel to the hinge
axis and twists as the rudder moves. This should put less strain on
the wires than allowing a much shorter length of wire to bend at the
hinge point. The wires are routed along the top of the rear fuselage
where the horizontal stabilizer attaches and then through grommets in
the bulkheads on the inside of the rear fuselage.
A rotating beacon is not necessary for IFR, a good set of wing tip
strobes meets the anti-collision light requirement. I would consider
a rotating beacon as just unecessary weight located far aft of the
CG. If you really have a good reason for a flashing light on the
tail, I would suggest using LEDs. Since these lights don't need to
satisfy any regulations, you can use anything that meets your needs.
The reason that most certificated aircraft have a flashing beacon on
the tail is that that beacon met the FAR anti-collision light
requirement that was in effect when those aircraft were first
certificated and it still meets the requirement for them. Those
lights alone no longer meet the requirement for more recently
certificated aircraft and aren't necessary under the current
regulations.
On Nov 2, 2006, at 2:20 PM, Eddie G. wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie G."
> <SilentLight@verizon.net>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am a newbie to the list and since you brought up the VOR
> antennas, I was hoping you folks can help me out with this.... My
> plans are to build an IFR 601. My rudder kit is on order and
> hopefully will get here next week. Would it make sense to install 2
> VOR antennas on the rudder the same way Cessna installs them on the
> 172 tail? Wouldn't the antenna coax wires get in the way of
> rudder's operation? From which direction should I route the wires
> out of the rudder (2 antenna, 1 tail light, 1 rotating beacon wire)?
>
> Thanx...Eddie
> Los Angeles, CA
>
> -----------------------------
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 701/912S colder weather operations |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hugh Roberts" <hughfr@evertek.net>
How does the oil thermostat work on a dry sump engine?
Does it restrict oil flow or bypass the cooler?
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 12:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 701/912S colder weather operations
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
>
> List,
> My 701 will be entering its first New England winter, and I have had
> marginal oil temps already. I do have an oil thermostat on the shelf in
> the hangar, but am wondering whether to add the complexity or just tape
> over the oil cooler. How are you others operating in the cooler outdoor
> temps doing, and what would you suggest?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Mileski
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71836#71836
>
>
>
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Mamual flaps on the 601XL? |
Hi Wade:=0A=0AMany of us who are past that point have looked into the possi
bility and pondered the possibilities for hours. The conclusion I arrived
at was there just isn't a good way to get the lever past the center spar.
Also, an electric actuator is so simple and works so well that there's no r
eason to do a lever IMHO. I used this type of actuator since it has intern
al limit switches:=0Ahttp://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_17_04_Actuator.JPG=0AHe
re are all the parts I fabbed up to use up all the 4" of travel in the actu
ator:=0Ahttp://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_21_04_Flaps.JPG=0A=0AGood luck with
whatever you decide to do. =0A=0AScott Laughlin=0AOmaha, Nebraska=0A601XL/C
orvair=0AFinishing up BRS installation=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A=0A=0A----- Origi
nal Message ----=0AFrom: Wade Jones <waj@quik.com>=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A
=0A=0AHello group ,I started welding up the flap =0Acomponents today .I may
be overlooking the flap controls on the plans ,are =0Athey only electrical
ly controlled .If possible I would rather have manual =0Acontrols . Thanks
Wade Jones=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 22
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
That's a lot of stuff to put on the 601 Rudder. I'd go with the tail light and
maybe an antenna but the Beacon isn't required as long as you have strobes but
if you must have it put it somewhere else.
All that I'll have on mine is the tail light and the wires run straight from it
forward to a hole in the front of the rudder.
Look on my web site under the "Tail" button for some pictures.
SilentLight(at)verizon.ne wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am a newbie to the list and since you brought up the VOR antennas, I was
> hoping you folks can help me out with this.... My plans are to build an IFR
> 601. My rudder kit is on order and hopefully will get here next week. Would
> it make sense to install 2 VOR antennas on the rudder the same way Cessna
> installs them on the 172 tail? Wouldn't the antenna coax wires get in the
> way of rudder's operation? From which direction should I route the wires
> out of the rudder (2 antenna, 1 tail light, 1 rotating beacon wire)?
>
> Thanx...Eddie
> Los Angeles, CA
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71882#71882
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Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Electric flap actuator |
Scott--- Could you please give more information on you electric flap actua
tor. Price? where you pruchased it etc ?=0A=0AThank you=0A=0AFritz 601 XL,
90/90-- Corvair=0ADo not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFro
m: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursda
y, November 2, 2006 4:32:34 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Mamual flaps on
the 601XL?=0A=0A=0AHi Wade:=0A=0AMany of us who are past that point have lo
oked into the possibility and pondered the possibilities for hours. The co
nclusion I arrived at was there just isn't a good way to get the lever past
the center spar. Also, an electric actuator is so simple and works so wel
l that there's no reason to do a lever IMHO. I used this type of actuator
since it has internal limit switches:=0Ahttp://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_17_0
4_Actuator.JPG=0AHere are all the parts I fabbed up to use up all the 4" of
travel in the actuator:=0Ahttp://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_21_04_Flaps.JPG
=0A=0AGood luck with whatever you decide to do. =0A=0AScott Laughlin=0AOmah
a, Nebraska=0A601XL/Corvair=0AFinishing up BRS installation=0ADO NOT ARCHIV
E=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Wade Jones <waj@quik.com>
=0A=0A=0A=0AHello group ,I started welding up the flap components today .I
may be overlooking the flap controls on the plans ,are they only electrical
ly controlled .If possible I would rather have manual controls . Thanks Wa
==================0A=0A
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Mamual flaps on the 601XL? |
Thanks Scott , I will proceed on with welding up all the flap
components .I was trying to get by without paying the high price for the
actuator ,($500.00 +) . I believe I thanked all who replied about my
fuselage skin thickness ,if not thanks to Ed and all the rest . Wade
----- Original Message -----
From: N5SL
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mamual flaps on the 601XL?
Hi Wade:
Many of us who are past that point have looked into the possibility
and pondered the possibilities for hours. The conclusion I arrived at
was there just isn't a good way to get the lever past the center spar.
Also, an electric actuator is so simple and works so well that there's
no reason to do a lever IMHO. I used this type of actuator since it has
internal limit switches:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_17_04_Actuator.JPG
Here are all the parts I fabbed up to use up all the 4" of travel in
the actuator:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_21_04_Flaps.JPG
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Scott Laughlin
Omaha, Nebraska
601XL/Corvair
Finishing up BRS installation
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message ----
From: Wade Jones <waj@quik.com>
Hello group ,I started welding up the flap components today .I may be
overlooking the flap controls on the plans ,are they only electrically
controlled .If possible I would rather have manual controls . Thanks
Wade Jones
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Vg's, Slats, Strut fairings STOL 701 |
I am not too surpassed that Zenith has not gone to VG's. VNE is 110 mph
and mine with the mods (including fairing out the lift struts..picked up
about 5 mph there)before floats cruised at 97mph at 5200 rpm. You really
do want to be careful cruising that close to VNE. On floats all I get is
85MPH at 5500 RPM with the 912 uls. A few more MPH would help but the
big thing is the fuel burn at high power settings.....I'd like to get
more range. Also remember when the 701 first came out there were few if
any aircraft that had VG's. That's changed ....I've had them on my
Cessna 170A and Avid Magnum and I can not say enough good about them.
And yes.... I know the slats need to be removed in order to use the vg's
and this is a major change. But is it that much more ratical that the
new leading edge put on a Cessna with a Sportsmen STOL kit. I'm not
saying mods are for everyone but it seems to be working well on some
Australian 701's. Look at the web site and then one can at least think
about it. And if it's not for you .....let it be.
http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php I have nothing to do with
Stolspeed other than ordering VG's from them. Just my thoughts so
please no flaming me.....Take it or delete it.
Tom Schulke
Stol 701 912uls on Czech 1200 amphibs 150+ hours Florida
Message 26
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| Subject: | XL Wingtip trimming |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
I'm installing the top skin on my right wing and looking ahead at the drawings
I've come up with a couple of questions. 6-W-8 says the top wing skin should
be 3658 mm long while the pre-drilled one that came from ZAC is only 3640. In
addition, when laying out the points used to establish the top cut on the wing
tip 6-W-9 calls for measurements that go up to 580 mm out from the rivet line
on rib 9. Well, the skin only measures 575 mm past the rivet line so I'm
coming up short.... My plans are the most recent and the kit came in May. Anybody
else run into this and what did you do?
Tim
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71900#71900
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Mamual flaps on the 601XL? |
Go here and search on "linear": www.surpluscenter.com
Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of travel while 5-1577-4 has 4. The companion
controller can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of these are well
under $100. The disadvantage compared to the factory actuator is that the
stops are not adjustable. So you need to build some adjustment into your
linkage.
-- Craig
Message 28
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| Subject: | Historic Zenair Zipper for sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>
Not too sure if this is appropriate to post here but
an aquaintence of mine asked me to pass this along.
It has a bit of historic value.
For Sale:
Zenair Zipper, a historic folding wing ultralight.
with 277 rotax and reduction gearbox, but prop has
been damaged. Fuselage has damage at wing root area,
wing tips damaged but leading edges are fine. Fabric
is good, tail is good. Solid main gear has been
replaced with spring system. Nose gear broken off. All
three wheels are there. Airspeed indicator, EGT, CHT,
compass. Not registered but this plane is serial
#2. Asking $1300, motivated seller. 519-665-7870
Sorry but I don't have any further information about
this aircraft. If you are interested in the aircraft,
you'll have to call the phone number. I belive the
(519) area code is in Southern Ontario, Canada.
Doug MacDonald
NW Ontario, Canada
CH-701 Scratch Builder
Working on Cabin
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| Subject: | Re: Historic Zenair Zipper for sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman <pchapman@ionsys.com>
So on that Zipper, only the fuselage, wing, gear, prop (and thus
engine?) are damaged.
I'm so glad that everything else is in fine shape! :-)
Like the fabric. Hopefully not the original stuff from 1983.
>It has a bit of historic value.
Indeed. It was an interesting attempt to create a more solid ultralight.
Not shooting the messenger,
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: 701/912S colder weather operations |
Bill,
It is installed above the oil filter, I will try to take a picture and send
to you if I can before leaving for FL on Sat morning. I don't remember which
fittings I used.
Bob
In a message dated 11/2/2006 3:38:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mileski@sonalysts.com writes:
Thanks, Bob. If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me where you put it, and
if you needed 90 degree adapter(s) on the oil cooler, or anything else that
might help. And a six pack of your favorite expensive beer, if you ever visit
CT, if you could offer up a pic or two!
Bill
guess I should be better at using:
do not archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 701/912S colder weather operations |
Hugh'
The t-stat bypasses most of the oil from the cooler and as the temp rises to
180 degrees it opens up to allow more oil through the cooler.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 11/2/2006 4:20:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hughfr@evertek.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hugh Roberts" <hughfr@evertek.net>
How does the oil thermostat work on a dry sump engine?
Does it restrict oil flow or bypass the cooler?
Hugh
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Historic Zenair Zipper for sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>
Isn't the Zipper supposed to have two engines?
Doug MacDonald
do not archive
(http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com)
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Message 33
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Here is my two cents worth, I think you are confusing "design" with "style".
STOL aircraft are not new as you have pointed out. Never the less Chris
Heintz designed, that's all the little bits in the detail drawings, which is NOT
style. The thread on removing the slats and adding VG's is downright
dangerous. If you study the drawings of the 701's airfoil you will notice that
the
profile includes the outline of the slats. The slot in the wing is what creates
the high lift characteristic of the airfoil. Check out Abbot & Von Doenhoff
for an explanation of how slotted airfoils work. Vg's are useful however when
added to a "normal" airfoil and do help with helping the airflow over the
wing to stay attached, it this that helps the airfoil work better. I agree with
you that there are areas of any aircraft that COULD be improved check out the
172's changes over the years. That the 701 has had so few iterations over a
20 year life speaks volumes of how good the basic design, not "style", is.
That is my dollars worth, two cents was not enough!
Regards, John Read - working on a CH701
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