---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/03/06: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:43 AM - Re: slats vs no slats (secatur) 2. 04:59 AM - Re: 701 vs ??? (Big Gee) 3. 05:35 AM - Re: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? (Tommy Walker) 4. 05:43 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (N5SL) 5. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Stut fairings (NYTerminat@aol.com) 6. 06:24 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (Jean-Paul Roy) 7. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: Stut fairings (Jean-Paul Roy) 8. 06:56 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator-- thanks (Big Gee) 9. 07:01 AM - Re: 601 copies or vice versa? (Ron DeWees) 10. 07:14 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (Big Gee) 11. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Stut fairings (NYTerminat@aol.com) 12. 07:28 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (NYTerminat@aol.com) 13. 07:31 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (N5SL) 14. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: Stut fairings (NYTerminat@aol.com) 15. 08:11 AM - Re: XL Wingtip trimming () 16. 08:25 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (Hunt Malcolm) 17. 08:33 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 18. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Stut fairings (Jean-Paul Roy) 19. 09:02 AM - Re: Re :701 Stut fairings (Monty Graves) 20. 09:08 AM - Re: XL Wingtip trimming (DaveG601XL) 21. 09:31 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (Craig Payne) 22. 10:08 AM - Have You Tried The New Matronics List Forum? (Matt Dralle) 23. 10:08 AM - Free 2D drafting software (lnk@iowatelecom.net) 24. 11:15 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator-- Push switches???? (Big Gee) 25. 11:46 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator-- Push switches???? (Craig Payne) 26. 11:54 AM - Re: Electric flap actuator (Craig Payne) 27. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: Stut fairings (Jean-Paul Roy) 28. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: Stut fairings (PipercubDream@aol.com) 29. 03:06 PM - Re: Re :701 Stut fairings (NYTerminat@aol.com) 30. 03:10 PM - Re: Electric flap actuator (NYTerminat@aol.com) 31. 03:36 PM - Re: Electric flap actuator (Jean-Paul Roy) 32. 04:02 PM - Re: Electric flap actuator (TxDave) 33. 04:10 PM - corvair engines available (Terry Turnquist) 34. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: 601 copies or vice versa? (Juan Vega) 35. 04:37 PM - Re: 701 vs ??? (Juan Vega) 36. 04:42 PM - Re: 701 vs ??? (Juan Vega) 37. 04:50 PM - Re: 701 vs ??? (Dave Ruddiman) 38. 05:20 PM - Re: Historic Zenair Zipper for sale (Peter Chapman) 39. 06:38 PM - Re: Re :701 Stut fairings (n801bh@netzero.com) 40. 06:40 PM - Re: 701 vs ??? (n801bh@netzero.com) 41. 07:36 PM - Re: Re :701 Stut fairings (NYTerminat@aol.com) 42. 07:38 PM - Re: 701 vs ??? (NYTerminat@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats From: "secatur" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "secatur" Oh god! don't u just hate it when u push the wrong button and have to start again? never as good the second time either lol! OK newbie (120hrs ga, no UL exp), not sure where to post so don't kill me if I'm wrong! (Although Doug, I'm now in Australia, but orig from Montreal...so go easy eh?) I'm (will be shortly) building 701..Having perused web extensively, I will build WITHOUT SLATS and use VGs...READ the site (stolspeed.com.au) thoroughly! IF you don't agree S'ok but good info anyway! I have talked to people associated and not associated and they have DONE THEIR HOMEWORK! ( Read AvWeb from 2003 if you want!) The kicker for me was ICP Savannah (still not sure I made the right choice! lol) Tested stolspeed's stuff and look on the site.."""Savannah VG""" To make matters worse, I will be using Simonini 2st/2cyl/H2O cooled/105hp/ 115lbs allup....on the basis that 701 was originally designed for 2cyl/2st (Rotax 503/580)( Only changed when Rotax said 300hrs and replace crank as well!) I think slow speed and stol MUST suffer using heavier engine! My 2 cents feel free to !$#@!#^^ Best Regards, Steve WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71948#71948 _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:47 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? John-- well said and I agree with you-----I don't understand how some folks can think slats can be REPLACED by VG's and not see the dangerous situatio n they are creating. (my opinion)=0A=0AWhen I used the word "design", I me ant it as: "Chris designed the CH 701 and CH 601 XL" etc. I din't mean he came up with the idea of stats, high lift wing etc.=0A=0AHappy building=0A =0AFritz--601XL--90/90----Corvair=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Original M essage ----=0AFrom: "JohnDRead@aol.com" =0ATo: zenith-li st@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, November 3, 2006 12:26:57 AM=0ASubject: Re : Zenith-List: 701 vs ???=0A=0A=0AHere is my two cents worth, I think you a re confusing "design" with "style". STOL aircraft are not new as you have p ointed out. Never the less Chris Heintz designed, that's all the little bit s in the detail drawings, which is NOT style. The thread on removing the sl ats and adding VG's is downright dangerous. If you study the drawings of th e 701's airfoil you will notice that the profile includes the outline of th e slats. The slot in the wing is what creates the high lift characteristic of the airfoil. Check out Abbot & Von Doenhoff for an explanation of how sl otted airfoils work. Vg's are useful however when added to a "normal" airfo il and do help with helping the airflow over the wing to stay attached, it this that helps the airfoil work better. I agree with you that there are ar eas of any aircraft that COULD be improved check out the 172's changes over the years. That the 701 has had so few iterations over a 20 year life spea ks volumes of how good the basic design, not "style", is. That is my dollars worth, two cents was not enough!=0A =0AReg ========================0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:16 AM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ?? Bob, I thought they were just flat pieces of sheet bent to an aerodyamic form. I didn't know they were extruded. Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive ....I have good news and bad news. One of the strut fairings that I received from Streamline had a slight crack in the extrusion. I spoke with Streamline and ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:50 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator Hi Fritz:=0A=0AI'd go with the model number and source Craig Payne posted. (Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of travel while 5-1577-4 has 4. =0AThe compan ion controller can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of =0Athese are well under $100. www.surpluscenter.com)=0A=0AHe has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save the information if I need another one later. =0A=0AJust to elaborate on what Craig said - you need to make t he linkage so it uses up all of the travel (I used a 4" actuator) in both d irections. Make the linkage adjustable so you can tweak it once it is inst alled. It's not that hard to do and I'm really happy with the way mine wo rks. =0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Big Gee =0A=0AScott--- Could you please give more information on you electric fl ap actuator. Price? where you pruchased it etc ?=0A=0A =0A=0AThank you=0A =0A =0A=0AFritz 601 XL, 90/90-- Corvair=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:22 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings The ones that a lot of people are using are extruded from plastic, very lightweight and less than $200.00. They slip over your strut tube. Bob In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:36:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, twalker@cableone.net writes: Bob, I thought they were just flat pieces of sheet bent to an aerodyamic form. I didn't know they were extruded. Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive ....I have good news and bad news. One of the strut fairings that I received from Streamline had a slight crack in the extrusion. I spoke with Streamline and ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:25 AM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator I'm just thinking out loud here. Would two small limit swithes could control the travel lenght? Jean-Paul CH701 wings do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: N5SL To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator Hi Fritz: I'd go with the model number and source Craig Payne posted. (Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of travel while 5-1577-4 has 4. The companion controller can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of these are well under $100. www.surpluscenter.com) He has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save the information if I need another one later. Just to elaborate on what Craig said - you need to make the linkage so it uses up all of the travel (I used a 4" actuator) in both directions. Make the linkage adjustable so you can tweak it once it is installed. It's not that hard to do and I'm really happy with the way mine works. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:44 AM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings Any link to these plastic struts fairing? Thanks Jean-Paul do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: NYTerminat@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings The ones that a lot of people are using are extruded from plastic, very lightweight and less than $200.00. They slip over your strut tube. Bob In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:36:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, twalker@cableone.net writes: Bob, I thought they were just flat pieces of sheet bent to an aerodyamic form. I didn't know they were extruded. Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive ....I have good news and bad news. One of the strut fairings that I received from Streamline had a slight crack in the extrusion. I spoke with Streamline and ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:24 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator-- thanks Scott and Craig------- thanks so much for the flap actuator info------ will do as you advise with the linkage set-up.=0AYou guys have saved me a bunch of bucks ( I believe about $350 saved). Your timing could not have been a ny better, as it it time for be ordering the flap actuator.=0A=0AThanks aga in=0AFritz --- 601XL---90/90-- Corvair=0Ado not archive=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: N5SL =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics. com=0ASent: Friday, November 3, 2006 8:43:30 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator=0A=0A=0AHi Fritz:=0A=0AI'd go with the model number and source Craig Payne posted. (Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of travel whi le 5-1577-4 has 4. The companion controller can memorize intermediate stops : 5-1577-C. Each of these are well under $100. www.surpluscenter.com)=0A=0A He has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save the info rmation if I need another one later. =0A=0AJust to elaborate on what Craig said - you need to make the linkage so it uses up all of the travel (I use d a 4" actuator) in both directions. Make the linkage adjustable so you ca n tweak it once it is installed. It's not that hard to do and I'm really happy with the way mine works. =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom : Big Gee =0A=0A=0AScott--- Could you please give mor e information on you electric flap actuator. Price? where you pruchased it etc ?=0A =0AThank you=0A =0AFritz 601 XL, 90/90-- Corvair=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ==========0A=0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:24 AM PST US From: Ron DeWees Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 copies or vice versa? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron DeWees Ron DeWees wrote: > Hi Listers, > I don't want to jump on the bandwagon for or against Chris with who > took whose design, and I sure agree that the Savannah looks a LOT like > a 701. I would like to point out something that I don't think I have > seen mentioned in the past. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. > Chris worked for Robbins Aircraft in France at some point in his > early career. One of the planes designed by Robbins was a popular > homebuilt called the Bebe Jodel. It was and is a great plane and > looks more than a little like the early Heintz CH 100/200, etc > planes. Biggest difference is that they were wood and not metal. Even > CH's airfoil is from the same NACA family as the Jodel. I have flown a > CH 100 that looked almost exactly like the Robbins D9. Take a look > at http://www.jodel.com/index.asp?p=d9&themodels. Look at the > horizontal and vertical elevator placement, the wing dihedral, and the > three view drawings. All quite similar and not common to a lot of > other planes. I never heard Robbins talk about infringements of > their design. Was Jodel the face that launched a thousand (Heintz) > ships? Maybe it's a case of what goes around comes around? Before I get jumped and flamed I will point out that I fly a "stock" 601HDS taildragger that I love and have no interest in modifying for pleasure or profit but it's sure not a black and white issue when you talk about improvements and change to a design. I guess that's why we have so many lawyers. > Ron DeWees do not archive _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:15 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator I'll let someone else answer about the limit switches ( I believe they wou ld work). But, the reason I like the way Scott did his ( build linkage so full travel is used) is because there are less things that can go wrong ( limit switch coming out of adjustment) or breaking etc. =0A=0AFritz=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jean-Paul Roy =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday , November 3, 2006 9:14:35 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap act uator=0A=0A=0AI'm just thinking out loud here. Would two small limit swithe s could control the travel lenght?=0A =0AJean-Paul=0ACH701 wings=0Ado not a rchive=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: N5SL =0ATo: zenith-list@matr onics.com =0ASent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:43 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith- List: Electric flap actuator=0A=0A=0AHi Fritz:=0A=0AI'd go with the model n umber and source Craig Payne posted. (Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of trave l while 5-1577-4 has 4. The companion controller can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of these are well under $100. www.surpluscenter.com) =0A=0AHe has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save th e information if I need another one later. =0A=0AJust to elaborate on what Craig said - you need to make the linkage so it uses up all of the travel (I used a 4" actuator) in both directions. Make the linkage adjustable so you can tweak it once it is installed. It's not that hard to do and I'm r =0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:19 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings Jean- Paul Just found it.... http://www.ultralightnews.ca/ultralightstore/streamlinedstruts.htm Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:27:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca writes: Any link to these plastic struts fairing? Thanks Jean-Paul do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: _NYTerminat@aol.com_ (mailto:NYTerminat@aol.com) Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings The ones that a lot of people are using are extruded from plastic, very lightweight and less than $200.00. They slip over your strut tube. Bob ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:30 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator I used a similar actuator and if you open up the housing, you are able to move the location of he existing micro switches. They are already in place , just need to be relocated. Bob Spudis N701ZX CH701/912S In a message dated 11/3/2006 10:15:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, taffy0687@yahoo.com writes: I'll let someone else answer about the limit switches ( I believe they would work). But, the reason I like the way Scott did his ( build linkage so full travel is used) is because there are less things that can go wrong ( limit switch coming out of adjustment) or breaking etc. Fritz ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:53 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator Jean-Paul:=0A=0AIf you look into this completely I think you will come to t he same conclusion I did. The unit has internal limit switches. It stops when reaching the end of travel in both directions. This is perfect since the limit switches are out of site and never need adjusting. Adding limit switches just adds complexity and another failure mode. =0A=0AAll you have to do is design the linkage so that when the actuator extends fully, you ha ve a fully extended flap. Likewise when the actuator travels the other way and reaches the limit, the flap is fully retracted. This was very easy to do and the result is a light, maintenance-free unit. I'm not sure why ZAC uses the heavy, complex actuator but I spoke to Nick about this some time ago and he said my system was fine. He indicated that ZAC gets all of thei r stuff from aircraft suppliers such as Aircraft Spruce and the actuator I' m using is not in the ACS catalog. =0A=0AI'm not knocking the ZAC system - it works fine, but if you are plans-building, there are other ways to do i t.=0A=0AScott Laughlin=0Awww.cooknwithgas.com=0Aworking on BRS final instal lation details=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jean-Paul Roy =0A=0A=0A=0A =0ADIV {=0AMARGIN:0px;}=0A=0A =0A=0AI'm just thinking out loud here. Would two small =0Alimit swithes cou ld control the travel lenght?=0A=0A =0A=0AJean-Paul=0A=0A=0A ----- Origina l Message ----- =0A=0A From: =0A N5SL =0A=0A=0A Hi =0A Fritz:=0A=0AI'd go with the model number and source Craig Payne =0A posted. (Item# 5-1577 -2 has 2 inches of travel while 5-1577-4 has 4. The =0A companion controll er can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of these =0A are well u nder $100. www.surpluscenter.com)=0A=0AHe has a great talent for finding st uff! =0A Thanks Craig - I'll save the information if I need another one l ater. =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:40 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings You can also get them through Skyshops, I think that these are aluminum, not sure if they are in stock. www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm _http://www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm_ (http://www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm) Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 10:27:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: Jean- Paul Just found it.... http://www.ultralightnews.ca/ultralightstore/streamlinedstruts.htm Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:27:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca writes: Any link to these plastic struts fairing? Thanks Jean-Paul ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:32 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wingtip trimming --> Zenith-List message posted by: I don't recall having that problem Tim. Ed Moody II Do Not Archive ---- Tim Juhl wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" > > I'm installing the top skin on my right wing and looking ahead at the drawings I've come up with a couple of questions. 6-W-8 says the top wing skin should be 3658 mm long while the pre-drilled one that came from ZAC is only 3640. In addition, when laying out the points used to establish the top cut on the wing tip 6-W-9 calls for measurements that go up to 580 mm out from the rivet line on rib 9. Well, the skin only measures 575 mm past the rivet line so I'm coming up short.... My plans are the most recent and the kit came in May. Anybody else run into this and what did you do? > > Tim > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Working on wings > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71900#71900 > > > > > > > > > > _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator From: "Hunt Malcolm" For those plans builders who wish to retain the Zenith arrangement the flap actuator is manufactured by Commercial Aircraft Products in Wichita part no D145-00-36-3 and comes complete with micro switches. I have just received one which cost $499.90 plus shipping. Best regards Malcolm Hunt CH601XL Plans Builder in England ________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Big Gee Sent: 03 November 2006 15:14 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator I'll let someone else answer about the limit switches ( I believe they would work). But, the reason I like the way Scott did his ( build linkage so full travel is used) is because there are less things that can go wrong ( limit switch coming out of adjustment) or breaking etc. Fritz do not archive ----- Original Message ---- From: Jean-Paul Roy Sent: Friday, November 3, 2006 9:14:35 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator I'm just thinking out loud here. Would two small limit swithes could control the travel lenght? Jean-Paul CH701 wings do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: N5SL To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator Hi Fritz: I'd go with the model number and source Craig Payne posted. (Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of travel while 5-1577-4 has 4. The companion controller can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of these are well under $100. www.surpluscenter.com ) He has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save the information if I need another one later. Just to elaborate on what Craig said - you need to make the linkage so it uses up all of the travel (I used a 4" actuator) in both directions. Make the linkage adjustable so you can tweak it once it is installed. It's not that hard to do and I'm really happy with the way mine works. ht== Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. *************************************************************************** ************************************ The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended rec ipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mist ake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the send ers own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. *************************************************************************** ************************************ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:40 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator Actually, there ARE limit switches inside the actuator. They are not meant to be adjustable, but they are....IF you don't mind doing a little soldering. They are mounted on a plastic rail and are almost infinitely adjustable. You may need to lengthen (or shorten) a wire, but the limit switch will just snap into a new position on the rail. It's actually a very simple operation...but it will probably void any warranty that comes with the unit. I am using an actuator similar, if not identical to the one Scott used. It has a 200 lb force stroke....and moves at about 1/3 inch per second...perfect for flap control. I used a 9 inch actuator because it was the right length to fit between the two pivot points. That way I didn't have to fabricate an extension. Then I adjusted the limit switches so that I am using about the middle 3 inches of travel. http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=75&products_id=2 (I see they're on sale!) Dave Harms videoflyer@aol.com 601XL/Corvair ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:49 AM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings Thank you kindly Bob. Jean-Paul do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: NYTerminat@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings You can also get them through Skyshops, I think that these are aluminum, not sure if they are in stock. www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm http://www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 10:27:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: Jean- Paul Just found it.... http://www.ultralightnews.ca/ultralightstore/streamlinedstruts.htm Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:27:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca writes: Any link to these plastic struts fairing? Thanks Jean-Paul ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:59 AM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re :701 Stut fairings Does any sell the fiberglass fairing that covers the steel gear leg attachment bracket and the lower end of the struts....... Someone had a picture of some awhile back of some fiberglass ones. but I have lost the picture or the link.... That looks like a place that can really save some drag as well...... Monty Graves At 10:41 AM 11/3/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >You can also get them through Skyshops, I think that these are aluminum, >not sure if they are in stock. > >www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm > >http://www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm > > >Bob Spudis > > >In a message dated 11/3/2006 10:27:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >NYTerminat@aol.com writes: >Jean- Paul > >Just found it.... >http://www.ultralightnews.ca/ultralightstore/streamlinedstruts.htm >Bob Spudis > > >In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:27:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca writes: >Any link to these plastic struts fairing? > >Thanks > >Jean-Paul > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:12 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wingtip trimming From: "DaveG601XL" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" Tim, I just did my first wingtip trimming and don't remember having any big problems other than my own skill level not being as good as I would have liked. Is your skin long enough to reach the ends of the spar tip and rear channel? If they line up there and you are only 5mm off in the middle I wouldn't see a huge problem with using your 575mm as the longest point and adjusting the other measurements slightly to keep as close to the original shape as possible. You make the tip sheet and angles 6W9-4, -6 and -7 to match anyway. If your skin is shorter than the sheet metal spar tip and rear channel then you could either cut them back flush and proportion the skin measurements to match the longest point or call ZAC for a different solution. Dave G. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=72018#72018 _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:23 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator One downside to moving the internal limit switches on these units is that you will no longer have full travel on the internal position sensor. So if you connect the sensor to a Ray Allen position indicator (or something like it) you won't be able to drive the indicator across its full range. Clearly this is a matter of degree. If you use 3 inches of travel of a 4 inch actuator you should get indication across 3/4 of the display. But if you use 3 inches of a 9 inch actuator you won't get much range at all. Also the internal position sensor is not present in all models so if you want it make sure it is called out in the model you order. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:09 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Have You Tried The New Matronics List Forum? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Hello Listers, One of the major new additions to the Matronics Email Lists this year was the addition of a new and full function Forum Web Site at: http://forums.matronics.com The best part of these new Forums is that they are tied directly to the Classic email distribution Lists! That also means that posts go in both directions. If you post a message on the Forum web site, it will be cross posted to the respective Email List. And, if you post a message to a particular Email List, it will be cross posted to the same respective forum on the Forum site! So, no matter what your content viewing pleasure is - either direct email distribution or web-based GUI interface, you can have it at the Matronics Email Lists! Won't you make a Contribution to support these Lists? It is your SOLE Contributions that make their continued operation and upgrade possible! The Contribution site is Fast, Easy, and Secure. Please surf over and make your Contribution today: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Free 2D drafting software From: lnk@iowatelecom.net --> Zenith-List message posted by: lnk@iowatelecom.net I tried to post this sometime back but it seems it never got through for some reason. For anyone looking for a CAD tool to help them with building a Zenith the folks at Unigraphics has recently released their 2D version of Solid Edge for free download. The package previously sold for $999 USD and includes some neat features like parametric sketching. Basically this allows you to sketch a shape and then add and adjust the dimensions later. (Just be careful to not over constrain the sketched object.) If interested go to www.solidedge.com/free2d. You will have to give up contact information to them and you can expect a follow up call. Full Disclosure: I have not actually loaded the software but someone in the office where I work has it. My employer also uses the 3D version of Solid Edge exclusively. I do use a similar product that has an ancestral link to this product. Larry K. 601XL -- When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return. - Leonardo da Vinci _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:56 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator-- Push switches???? Scott or Craig---- I am getting ready to order the actuator 5-1577-4 and co ntroller 5-1577-C as recommended below.=0AQuestion: Should I order 3 each o f the: 11-3064 momentary switches for later installation or is controller a ll that I'll need for operating the unit.=0A=0AThanks in advance.=0A=0AFri tz---- 601XL scratch builder--- Corvair-=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A----- Ori ginal Message ----=0AFrom: N5SL =0ATo: zenith-list@matro nics.com=0ASent: Friday, November 3, 2006 8:43:30 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith- List: Electric flap actuator=0A=0A=0AHi Fritz:=0A=0AI'd go with the model n umber and source Craig Payne posted. (Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of trave l while 5-1577-4 has 4. The companion controller can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of these are well under $100. www.surpluscenter.com) =0A=0AHe has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save th e information if I need another one later. =0A=0AJust to elaborate on what Craig said - you need to make the linkage so it uses up all of the travel (I used a 4" actuator) in both directions. Make the linkage adjustable so you can tweak it once it is installed. It's not that hard to do and I'm r eally happy with the way mine works. =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ---- =0AFrom: Big Gee =0A=0A=0AScott--- Could you please g ive more information on you electric flap actuator. Price? where you prucha sed it etc ?=0A =0AThank you=0A =0AFritz 601 XL, 90/90-- Corvair=0A=0A=0A =============0A=0A ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:52 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator-- Push switches???? The controller is all you need. You can use external buttons if you can't fit (or for some reason don't like) the buttons on the controller. The spec for the controller is at www.spal-usa.com/actuators/automated/tech_sheets/LA-CONTROLLER.pdf -- Craig ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:51 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator >> He has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save the information if I need another one later. I think Doug Eatman found Surplus Center and the linear actuators first. I just saved the link. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:04 PM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings I would rather go the aluminum route since the temps here up north sometime go to -40C and I believe that sort of temps would make the plastic ones very brittle. Just a tought Jean-Paul do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: NYTerminat@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings You can also get them through Skyshops, I think that these are aluminum, not sure if they are in stock. www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm http://www.skyshops.org/Accessories.htm Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 10:27:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, NYTerminat@aol.com writes: Jean- Paul Just found it.... http://www.ultralightnews.ca/ultralightstore/streamlinedstruts.htm Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:27:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jean-paul.roy4@tlb.sympatico.ca writes: Any link to these plastic struts fairing? Thanks Jean-Paul ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:14 PM PST US From: PipercubDream@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Stut fairings Hi, While on the subject of accessories, are there any other companies that offer products for the 701 other than skyshops? Thanks, Ben ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:44 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re :701 Stut fairings Monty, If you find them, please post it. Doesn't the 801 use them?? Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 12:04:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mgraves@usmo.com writes: Does any sell the fiberglass fairing that covers the steel gear leg attachment bracket and the lower end of the struts....... Someone had a picture of some awhile back of some fiberglass ones. but I have lost the picture or the link.... That looks like a place that can really save some drag as well...... Monty Graves ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:19 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator Or use an external position sensor like I did from Ray Allen. Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 12:32:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, craig@craigandjean.com writes: One downside to moving the internal limit switches on these units is that you will no longer have full travel on the internal position sensor. So if you connect the sensor to a Ray Allen position indicator (or something like it) you won't be able to drive the indicator across its full range. Clearly this is a matter of degree. If you use 3 inches of travel of a 4 inch actuator you should get indication across 3/4 of the display. But if you use 3 inches of a 9 inch actuator you won't get much range at all. Also the internal position sensor is not present in all models so if you want it make sure it is called out in the model you order. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:42 PM PST US From: "Jean-Paul Roy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator That makes good sense. Thank Scott Jean-Paul do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: N5SL To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electric flap actuator Jean-Paul: If you look into this completely I think you will come to the same conclusion I did. The unit has internal limit switches. It stops when reaching the end of travel in both directions. This is perfect since the limit switches are out of site and never need adjusting. Adding limit switches just adds complexity and another failure mode. All you have to do is design the linkage so that when the actuator extends fully, you have a fully extended flap. Likewise when the actuator travels the other way and reaches the limit, the flap is fully retracted. This was very easy to do and the result is a light, maintenance-free unit. I'm not sure why ZAC uses the heavy, complex actuator but I spoke to Nick about this some time ago and he said my system was fine. He indicated that ZAC gets all of their stuff from aircraft suppliers such as Aircraft Spruce and the actuator I'm using is not in the ACS catalog. I'm not knocking the ZAC system - it works fine, but if you are plans-building, there are other ways to do it. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com working on BRS final installation details ----- Original Message ---- From: Jean-Paul Roy I'm just thinking out loud here. Would two small limit swithes could control the travel lenght? Jean-Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: N5SL Hi Fritz: I'd go with the model number and source Craig Payne posted. (Item# 5-1577-2 has 2 inches of travel while 5-1577-4 has 4. The companion controller can memorize intermediate stops: 5-1577-C. Each of these are well under $100. www.surpluscenter.com) He has a great talent for finding stuff! Thanks Craig - I'll save the information if I need another one later. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:21 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Electric flap actuator From: "TxDave" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "TxDave" Hey Malcolm, I was lucky and found the exact flap actuator ZAC shows in the plans on ebay. Brand new, in the box for $45. ZAC has now changed to a linear actuator similar to the one Scott used. They said the one in the plans was just too expensive. Dave Clay Temple, TX http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=72158#72158 _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:40 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Zenith-List: corvair engines available Hi List, I have two dismantled and cleaned up 1965 110 HP vair engines and the latest WW conversion manual for sale reasonable. Please contact off list or call if you're interested in one or both. Thanks. Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans St. Peters, MO 314-397-5559 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:36 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 copies or vice versa? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega Just an interesting thought on copying but remember the story of Avid versus KItfox, the parts were interchangable. When it went before a judge the Judge ruled in favor of the defendant stating while it is a copy it is not elegal to do so. Its a bummer someone took the easy way and copied a good design, but the laws of economics will ultimately saturate the market for that type of copied product, and my guess is Zenith will ultimately modify their 701 as a bigger and better design to sell, rejuvenating the Zenith Product life cycle. Happens will all successful products out there. Look at the A 320 versus 737 stretch, competition going on. Mark my words, Zenith will show an updateed "New and Improved" version if the new copy cats eat into their market share. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Ron DeWees >Sent: Nov 3, 2006 9:59 AM >To: zenair >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 copies or vice versa? > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ron DeWees > >Ron DeWees wrote: >> Hi Listers, >> I don't want to jump on the bandwagon for or against Chris with who >> took whose design, and I sure agree that the Savannah looks a LOT like >> a 701. I would like to point out something that I don't think I have >> seen mentioned in the past. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. >> Chris worked for Robbins Aircraft in France at some point in his >> early career. One of the planes designed by Robbins was a popular >> homebuilt called the Bebe Jodel. It was and is a great plane and >> looks more than a little like the early Heintz CH 100/200, etc >> planes. Biggest difference is that they were wood and not metal. Even >> CH's airfoil is from the same NACA family as the Jodel. I have flown a >> CH 100 that looked almost exactly like the Robbins D9. Take a look >> at http://www.jodel.com/index.asp?p=d9&themodels. Look at the >> horizontal and vertical elevator placement, the wing dihedral, and the >> three view drawings. All quite similar and not common to a lot of >> other planes. I never heard Robbins talk about infringements of >> their design. Was Jodel the face that launched a thousand (Heintz) >> ships? Maybe it's a case of what goes around comes around? > Before I get jumped and flamed I will point out that I fly a "stock" >601HDS taildragger that I love and have no interest in modifying for >pleasure or profit but it's sure not a black and white issue when you >talk about improvements and change to a design. I guess that's why we >have so many lawyers. >> Ron DeWees >do not archive > > _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:50 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega You are right. Slats and VGs do two different things. that is why the big jets have both. Big jets act under diffent sets of aerodynamics than a plane designed to fly under 18,000 ft. The slats allow for a more extreme pitch along with the 701's reverse foil tail. The slat pushes the air over the main foil to create lift at an angle past normal wing stall, typicaly 15 degrees of pitch past line of air flow. Well past what a VG can do. VGs work to slow the bufet of the air over the wing, reducing stall, but hits a limit that a slat alows the wing to go well past. That is why they call it experimental. My only hope is that they use sound research instead of the cut and chop and tape and lets see if it works. My guess is they will have to modify the Horiz, stab to avoid extrem overpitch. The VGs won't work in the realm of the LE Slat, and could induce a stall at take off, unless the nose is pitched forward after Vr. What do I know, enough to be dangerous as my wife says. Juan Vega -----Original Message----- >From: Big Gee >Sent: Nov 3, 2006 7:58 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? > >John-- well said and I agree with you-----I don't understand how some folks can think slats can be REPLACED by VG's and not see the dangerous situation they are creating. (my opinion) > >When I used the word "design", I meant it as: "Chris designed the CH 701 and CH 601 XL" etc. I din't mean he came up with the idea of stats, high lift wing etc. > >Happy building > >Fritz--601XL--90/90----Corvair >do not archive > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "JohnDRead@aol.com" >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Friday, November 3, 2006 12:26:57 AM >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? > > >Here is my two cents worth, I think you are confusing "design" with "style". STOL aircraft are not new as you have pointed out. Never the less Chris Heintz designed, that's all the little bits in the detail drawings, which is NOT style. The thread on removing the slats and adding VG's is downright dangerous. If you study the drawings of the 701's airfoil you will notice that the profile includes the outline of the slats. The slot in the wing is what creates the high lift characteristic of the airfoil. Check out Abbot & Von Doenhoff for an explanation of how slotted airfoils work. Vg's are useful however when added to a "normal" airfoil and do help with helping the airflow over the wing to stay attached, it this that helps the airfoil work better. I agree with you that there are areas of any aircraft that COULD be improved check out the 172's changes over the years. That the 701 has had so few iterations over a 20 year life speaks volumes of how good the basic design, not > "style", is. That is my dollars worth, two cents was not enough! > >Reg====================== > _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:35 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega the Slat does not create the high lift, the foil shape of the main wingdoes look at the cord design. the slat force the air over the wing at extreme angles then is just the leading edge of the foil after that. If you want to create higher speed on the 701 slat design , look at a book on the pricipals of STOL. One thing that can be does is a negative (positive degree) flap. Maule has done a fine job on their Positve flap for cruise design. Would probably add the 10 mph you are looking for. Juan Vega -----Original Message----- >From: JohnDRead@aol.com >Sent: Nov 3, 2006 12:26 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? > >Here is my two cents worth, I think you are confusing "design" with "style". >STOL aircraft are not new as you have pointed out. Never the less Chris >Heintz designed, that's all the little bits in the detail drawings, which is NOT >style. The thread on removing the slats and adding VG's is downright >dangerous. If you study the drawings of the 701's airfoil you will notice that the >profile includes the outline of the slats. The slot in the wing is what creates >the high lift characteristic of the airfoil. Check out Abbot & Von Doenhoff >for an explanation of how slotted airfoils work. Vg's are useful however when >added to a "normal" airfoil and do help with helping the airflow over the >wing to stay attached, it this that helps the airfoil work better. I agree with >you that there are areas of any aircraft that COULD be improved check out the >172's changes over the years. That the 701 has had so few iterations over a >20 year life speaks volumes of how good the basic design, not "style", is. >That is my dollars worth, two cents was not enough! > >Regards, John Read - working on a CH701 _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:25 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman" I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but has anyone put VG's on the main wing and left the slats on? I don't know if this would even make any difference. This doesn't really pertain to me since I am building an 801 according to plans. I'm just curious. Maybe someone has asked this before. do not archive Dave in Salem 801 with slats ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Vega" Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:37 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega > > You are right. Slats and VGs do two different things. that is why the big > jets have both. Big jets act under diffent sets of aerodynamics than a > plane designed to fly under 18,000 ft. > The slats allow for a more extreme pitch along with the 701's reverse foil > tail. The slat pushes the air over the main foil to create lift at an > angle past normal wing stall, typicaly 15 degrees of pitch past line of > air flow. Well past what a VG can do. VGs work to slow the bufet of the > air over the wing, reducing stall, but hits a limit that a slat alows the > wing to go well past. > > That is why they call it experimental. My only hope is that they use > sound research instead of the cut and chop and tape and lets see if it > works. My guess is they will have to modify the Horiz, stab to avoid > extrem overpitch. The VGs won't work in the realm of the LE Slat, and > could induce a stall at take off, unless the nose is pitched forward after > Vr. > > What do I know, enough to be dangerous as my wife says. > > Juan Vega > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Big Gee >>Sent: Nov 3, 2006 7:58 AM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? >> >>John-- well said and I agree with you-----I don't understand how some >>folks can think slats can be REPLACED by VG's and not see the dangerous >>situation they are creating. (my opinion) >> >>When I used the word "design", I meant it as: "Chris designed the CH 701 >>and CH 601 XL" etc. I din't mean he came up with the idea of stats, high >>lift wing etc. >> >>Happy building >> >>Fritz--601XL--90/90----Corvair >>do not archive >> >> >>----- Original Message ---- >>From: "JohnDRead@aol.com" >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Sent: Friday, November 3, 2006 12:26:57 AM >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? >> >> >>Here is my two cents worth, I think you are confusing "design" with >>"style". STOL aircraft are not new as you have pointed out. Never the less >>Chris Heintz designed, that's all the little bits in the detail drawings, >>which is NOT style. The thread on removing the slats and adding VG's is >>downright dangerous. If you study the drawings of the 701's airfoil you >>will notice that the profile includes the outline of the slats. The slot >>in the wing is what creates the high lift characteristic of the airfoil. >>Check out Abbot & Von Doenhoff for an explanation of how slotted airfoils >>work. Vg's are useful however when added to a "normal" airfoil and do help >>with helping the airflow over the wing to stay attached, it this that >>helps the airfoil work better. I agree with you that there are areas of >>any aircraft that COULD be improved check out the 172's changes over the >>years. That the 701 has had so few iterations over a 20 year life speaks >>volumes of how good the basic design, not >> "style", is. That is my dollars worth, two cents was not enough! >> >>Reg====================== >> > > > _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:20 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Historic Zenair Zipper for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Chapman At 22:56 02-11-06, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug > >Isn't the Zipper supposed to have two engines? I've read there were both one and two engined versions. Not sure if they corresponded to 1 and 2 seat models or not. That was all back in the day when Zenair's basic product brochure was a two sided photocopied sheet with all the different aircraft models, and the text was full of typos. I sure hoped the planes were less crude than the marketing. Not sure if they actually were any less crude (although they were clever in some ways), but at least they were easily buildable and flyable. do not archive Peter Chapman Toronto, ON _- _- _- _- _- _- ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:40 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re :701 Stut fairings I don't have some on my 801. I do believe ZAC sells them as an option. I thought about installing some but I usually have someone helping me pus h the toy back into the hangar and I am not sure they could stand any ki nd of abuse. Comments ??? do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: Monty,If you find them, please post it. Doesn't the 801 use them?? Bob S pudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 12:04:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mgraves@usmo.com writes:Does any sell the fiberglass fairing that cover s the steel gear leg attachment bracket and the lower end of the struts. ...... Someone had a picture of some awhile back of some fiberglass on es. but I have lost the picture or the link.... That looks like a place that can really save some drag as well...... Monty Graves ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================

I don't have some on my 801. I do believe ZAC sells them as an option. I thought about installing some but I usually have someone helpi ng me push the toy back into the hangar and I am not sure they could sta nd any kind of abuse. Comments ???

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:

Monty,
If you find them, please post it. Doesn't the 801 use them??
 
Bob Spudis
 
 
In a message dated 11/3/2006 12:04:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, m graves@usmo.com writes:
Does any sell the fiberglass fairing that cov ers the steel gear leg attachment bracket and the lower end of the strut s.......   Someone had a picture of some awhile back of some f iberglass ones.   but I have lost the picture or the link....< BR>
That looks like a place that can really save some drag as well... ...

Monty Graves
 


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________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:25 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? I tried adding reflex [ that is raising the flaps past their normal atti tude]. The plane flies nose up and you actually lose some speed. At leas t my 801 does.. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Juan Vega wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega the Slat does not create the high lift, the foil shape of the main wingd oes look at the cord design. the slat force the air over the wing at ex treme angles then is just the leading edge of the foil after that. If yo u want to create higher speed on the 701 slat design , look at a book on the pricipals of STOL. One thing that can be does is a negative (posit ive degree) flap. Maule has done a fine job on their Positve flap for cr uise design. Would probably add the 10 mph you are looking for. Juan Vega -----Original Message----- >From: JohnDRead@aol.com >Sent: Nov 3, 2006 12:26 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? > >Here is my two cents worth, I think you are confusing "design" with "s tyle". >STOL aircraft are not new as you have pointed out. Never the less Chris >Heintz designed, that's all the little bits in the detail drawings, whi ch is NOT >style. The thread on removing the slats and adding VG's is downright >dangerous. If you study the drawings of the 701's airfoil you will not ice that the >profile includes the outline of the slats. The slot in the wing is wha t creates >the high lift characteristic of the airfoil. Check out Abbot & Von Doe nhoff >for an explanation of how slotted airfoils work. Vg's are useful howev er when >added to a "normal" airfoil and do help with helping the airflow over the >wing to stay attached, it this that helps the airfoil work better. I a gree with >you that there are areas of any aircraft that COULD be improved check out the >172's changes over the years. That the 701 has had so few iterations o ver a >20 year life speaks volumes of how good the basic design, not "style", is. >That is my dollars worth, two cents was not enough! > >Regards, John Read - working on a CH701 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== I tried adding reflex [ that is raising the flaps past their norma l attitude]. The plane flies nose up and you actually lose some speed. A t least my 801 does..


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowe rair.com

-- Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.ne t> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted&nb sp;by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>

the Slat does not create the high li ft, the foil shape of the main wingdo es  look at the cord design. the  ;slat force the air over the wing at& nbsp;extreme angles then is just the leadi ng edge of the foil after that. If&nb sp;you want to create higher speed on  ;the 701 slat design , look at a  ;book on the pricipals of STOL.  One& nbsp;thing that can be does is a nega tive (positive degree) flap. Maule has don e a fine job on their Positve flap&nb sp;for cruise design.  Would probably add& nbsp;the 10 mph you are looking for.   

Juan  Vega

-----Original Message---- -
>From: JohnDRead@aol.com
>Sent: Nov 3,  ;2006 12:26 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
&g t;Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ???
>< BR>>Here is my two cents worth, I  think you are confusing "design" with &nbs p;"style". 
>STOL aircraft are not new&nb sp;as you have pointed out. Never the  ;less Chris  
>Heintz designed, that's&nb sp;all the little bits in the detail  drawings, which is NOT  
>style. The  thread on removing the slats and add ing VG's is downright 
>dangerous.   If you study the drawings of the 701' s airfoil you will notice that the >profile  includes the outline of the  slats. The slot in the wing is  what creates 
>the high  lift charac teristic of the airfoil. Check out Abbot&n bsp;& Von Doenhoff 
>for an  exp lanation of how slotted airfoils work. Vg' s are useful however when 
>added to   a "normal" airfoil and do help  ;with helping the airflow over the 
> ;wing to stay  attached, it this that  helps the airfoil work better. I agr ee with 
>you that  there are a reas of any aircraft that COULD be im proved check out the 
>172's  change s over the years. That the 701 has&nb sp;had so few iterations over a 
>20  year  life speaks volumes of how&nbs p;good the basic design, not "style", is.& nbsp;
>That is my  dollars worth, tw o cents was not enough!
> 
>Regards , John Read - working on a CH701
< ======================== sp;     -- Please Support Your&n nbsp;      (And Get Some AW  is the Annual List Fund Raiser. &nbs sp;  this year's Terrific Free Incentive&n p;    * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com, nbsp;   * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog. sp;        http://www.matronics. p;           &nbs p;           &nbs ======================== ========================      - The Zenith-List Email&nbs nbsp;List utilities such as the Subscriptions&n ======================== ======================== ======


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________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:25 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re :701 Stut fairings Tow bar In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:39:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, n801bh@netzero.com writes: I don't have some on my 801. I do believe ZAC sells them as an option. I thought about installing some but I usually have someone helping me push the toy back into the hangar and I am not sure they could stand any kind of abuse. Comments ??? do not archive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:05 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 vs ??? Ben, What kind of speed do you get?? How many HP do you have strapped in there? Bob Spudis In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:41:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, n801bh@netzero.com writes: I tried adding reflex [ that is raising the flaps past their normal attitude]. The plane flies nose up and you actually lose some speed. At least my 801 does.. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com