---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/17/06: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:42 AM - List Value... (Matt Dralle) 1. 05:07 AM - Re: Odyssey PC625 battery dimensions? (N5SL) 2. 06:22 AM - Off topic: CH701s and CH2000s to be built in China () 3. 06:42 AM - Maintenance on Bonded Airframes (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 4. 07:20 AM - Adhesives (Al Young) 5. 07:41 AM - Re: Adhesives () 6. 07:49 AM - Re: New thread, sticky subject (Brandon Tucker) 7. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: New thread, sticky subject () 8. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: New thread, sticky subject (Wade Jones) 9. 10:22 AM - Re: Adhesives (Bill Steer) 10. 11:08 AM - Re: Adhesives (LarryMcFarland) 11. 11:25 AM - Re: CH701's and CH2000's to be built in China??? () 12. 11:25 AM - Re: New thread, sticky subject (noel anderson) 13. 11:32 AM - Re: New thread, sticky subject () 14. 12:01 PM - AAaaaaadhesivesss () 15. 12:18 PM - Re: AAaaaaadhesivesss (Carlos Sa) 16. 12:58 PM - 701 Floats (Charley Zurian) 17. 02:22 PM - Re: Fuel pump - gascolator (Tim Verthein) 18. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator (Robin Bellach) 19. 06:00 PM - Re: 701 amphibous floats (billmileski) 20. 06:10 PM - Re: , sticky subject (John Bolding) 21. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: 701 amphibous floats (John Bolding) 22. 07:16 PM - Fuel system (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 23. 07:29 PM - Re: Re: , sticky subject (Noel Loveys) 24. 07:49 PM - Re: Fuel system (Dino Bortolin) 25. 07:51 PM - Re: New thread, sticky subject (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 26. 07:52 PM - Re: Fuel system (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 27. 07:55 PM - Re: Re: 701 amphibious floats (raymondj) 28. 08:10 PM - N601XT gets airborne... A little... (Brandon Tucker) 29. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: 701 amphibious floats (Zodie Rocket) 30. 08:14 PM - Re: Zodiac Crash Discussion on AOPA forums (David X) 31. 08:17 PM - Re: Loss of Jim Pellien in crash of 601VA (David X) 32. 09:06 PM - Re: N601XT gets airborne... A little... (Craig Payne) 33. 11:51 PM - Re: N601XT gets airborne... A little... (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:51 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: List Value... If you look forward to checking your List email everyday (and a lot of you have written to say that you do!), then you're probably getting at least 0 or 0 worth of Entertainment from the Lists each year. You'd pay twice that for a subscription to some lame magazine or even a dinner out. Isn't the List worth at least that much to you? Wouldn't it be great if you could pay that same amount and get a well-managed media source free of advertising, SPAM, and viruses? Come to think of it, you do... Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support YOUR Lists? Contribution Page: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Again, I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that has made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser!! These Lists are made possible exclusively through YOUR generosity!! Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:18 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Odyssey PC625 battery dimensions? Craig: You are probably fine. I can't measure mine right now but I can tell you the metal jacket is more of a box and it can be removed. You can buy the battery without the jacket and it is cheaper. I removed the metal jacket, drilled some holes in it and used it as a battery box. Here are some pictures of the installation: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_15_05_Battery_Box.JPG http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_15_05_Battery_Box2.JPG http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_15_05_Battery_Box3.JPG I hope this clears it up. Scott Laughlin Omaha, Nebraska No progress to report this week. ----- Original Message ---- From: Craig Payne Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:49:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Odyssey PC625 battery dimensions? Does anyone have a PC625 on hand that they can measure? This is the battery Jabiru recommends and apparently the one the Zenith 601XL FWF kit was designed for. But the supplied bracket is 5 mm narrower than the published dimensions of the battery: 165 mm vs. 170 mm. I don't have the battery yet but these are the published dimensions: www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm length 170.2 mm, 6.70 inches width 99.1 mm, 3.90 inches height 175.0 mm, 6.89 inches The footnote states "All batteries show with metal jackets, except PC535, PC625, and PC2250". The bracket would also need room for the foam padding shown: www.usjabiru.com/Zenith%20fwf_files/Zenith%20Battery%20Installation.pdf -- Craig $200,000 mortgage for $660/ mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt - http://yahoo.ratemarketplace.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:30 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Off topic: CH701s and CH2000s to be built in China A bit of digging on the Zenith site revealed a ready to fly price of $139,000 with an IFR certified panel according to the site. The story suggesting a value of $250,000 for the ones that the Chinese company proposes to build seems to be eitehr inflated or simply an error. One would think that with their less absurd product liability situation and no unions to deal with the selling price is likely to be less when they come to the market. Ed Moody II Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:15 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: Maintenance on Bonded Airframes Gang: I recently sold a 38-year-old AA-1 that had seen some pretty hard use. There were no major debondings over its lifetime, even though it came out of the factory at $6995 and had a very short expected life. However there were some minor debondings which were easily fixed or patched with the specified glues. Recall that the AA-X series fuselages are a bonded *honeycomb* structure, while the wings are normal aluminum. Except for one year where the factory got bad glue (the "purple" glue), there has never been any history of airframe problems with this construction method. However, for us OBAM builders, I propose that it is much easier to inspect, maintain and modify regular riveted construction by a long shot! Most importantly, you can *disassemble* a riveted structure for maintenance, repair or enhancement. Not possible with a bonded structure. Once it's closed, it's closed! Finally, I mention that factory bonded structures are produced in a carefully controlled environment, usually with significant heat and pressure applied to the joints with special jigs and other devices. These are out of reach of most home builders. A good comparison would be between the moldless sandwich fiberglass construction used in the Eze's and the vacuum-bagged, oven-cured parts used in the Glasairs. Huge difference in design parameters and methods. FWIW, Andy Elliott N601GE (601XL/TD, Corvair, building...) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:54 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Zenith-List: Adhesives Can someone suggest a locally available adhesive for use in bonding the rubber canopy seals to the front and rear of the XL canopy? Thanks in advance Al Young N601AY ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:32 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Adhesives I believe (haven't done it yet myself) that someone on the list recommended a silicon adhesive like Dow Corning Silicon Adhesive. Ed Moody II ---- Al Young wrote: > Can someone suggest a locally available adhesive for use in bonding the rubber canopy seals to the front and rear of the XL canopy? > Thanks in advance > Al Young > N601AY ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:37 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New thread, sticky subject There is an all aluminum sailplane design that bonds the aluminum skins to aluminum ribs. I cannot remember the name of the aircraft, but will put in an e-mail to the guy who built it. It is a pretty light plane, probably less than 700 gross. The wing has a ridiculous number of ribs - over 30, if memory serves. This technology has been there for years, but small plane designers are either still building the same old thing, the same old way (Cessna), or moving over to composites. It is a bright and shiny day here in San Diego, and I have an aircraft that is ready to fly... Here goes nothing! R/ Brandon Tucker First flight today! -Maybe... --------------------------------- $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:17 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New thread, sticky subject Good luck and keep us posted. Ed Moody II Do Not Archive ---- Brandon Tucker wrote: > First flight today! -Maybe... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:54 AM PST US From: "Wade Jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New thread, sticky subject Hello Brandon ,good luck on your test flight . Are you going to fly from Oceanside Ca . If so please contact me off list ,my daughter has a bussiness just next door and is interested in your flight . Thanks Wade DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: Brandon Tucker To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New thread, sticky subject There is an all aluminum sailplane design that bonds the aluminum skins to aluminum ribs. I cannot remember the name of the aircraft, but will put in an e-mail to the guy who built it. It is a pretty light plane, probably less than 700 gross. The wing has a ridiculous number of ribs - over 30, if memory serves. This technology has been there for years, but small plane designers are either still building the same old thing, the same old way (Cessna), or moving over to composites. It is a bright and shiny day here in San Diego, and I have an aircraft that is ready to fly... Here goes nothing! R/ Brandon Tucker First flight today! -Maybe... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:42 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Adhesives There's lots of information in the archives on this. The most popular one seems to be Poly-Zap, which is available at hobby shops. Bill Can someone suggest a locally available adhesive for use in bonding the rubber canopy seals to the front and rear of the XL canopy? Thanks in advance Al Young N601AY ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:11 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Adhesives Al, I used PolyZap which is similar to crazy glue. Terrific adhesion. Use a drop every inch being careful not to let it get above the overlapping rubber on the canopy. Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com Al Young wrote: > Can someone suggest a locally available adhesive for use in bonding > the rubber canopy seals to the front and rear of the XL canopy? > Thanks in advance > Al Young > N601AY > * > =========================== > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:02 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701's and CH2000's to be built in China??? At $250,000 per copy?? I hereby offer to underbid China by $50,000 e ach.. And I'll even throw in whitewalls!!!!!!=0A=0APaul Rodrigue z=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A From : NYTerminat@aol.com =0A To: zenith-lis t@matronics.com =0A Sent: Thursd ay, November 16, 2006 1:26 PM=0A Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH701's and CH2000's to be built in China???=0A=0A=0A 37.5 million for 150 CH200 airplanes. What are they made of Titanium?=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A In a message dated 11/16/2006 2:19:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pwhoyt@yahoo.com writes: >=0A=0A http://english.people.com.cn /200611/08/eng20061108_319307.html=0A=0A I'm not so sure this is a good idea, given my experience with products that have "Made in China" on them. =0A=0A Thoughts...?=0A=0A - PatrickW ======================= ======================= ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New thread, sticky subject Hello Team. Vacuum Bags are used in the marine industry, for laminated pannels both timber and composite. (America's Cup boats) I see no reason why the same method should not work with metal structures. A quick google may turn up some info, which I'll do tonight. I have been thinking about this method for my own project, for skinning the wings with ply!! ( I have no sheet metal skills) Regards to all. Noel ----- Original Message ----- From: paulrod36@msn.com To: zenith-list Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 8:37 AM Subject: Zenith-List: New thread, sticky subject Listers all: A couple of days ago, I watched a History Channel program on glues. After giving the history of glues, going back to Tut's coffin, they then covered modern adhesives (I guess the word glue is outmoded) and related that new commercial airliners have large percentages of adhesives bonding components. Interesting stuff. 3-M and the folks who make Loctite showed some pretty neat applications. They showed one demonstration in which galvanized, of about 18 gauge or so, broke before the adhesive could fail Even more interesting. They also referred to the fact that rivets and bolts concentrate the stresses at each point, while adhesive bonding spreads the load over the entire surface of the component. Now, I know that the Grumman AA-1, and, I believe, AA-2, use bonding to hold the wing sheets together. (I helped an A&P repair a crunched AA-1 wing, and was impressed.) So, here's a thought: While I'd be pretty chicken about bonding main spars, it might be interesting to try bonding some less stressed pieces. I think some research might be useful, and, of course, some opinions, as to the feasibility of adhesive bonding in ELSAs. I foresee the probable need for some means of applying even squeeze on curved parts, and, probably, some sort of very long pressure force on longer adhesive runs. Vacuum bags, anyone? Does anybody know what the operating life of a bond is, with the hi-tech adhesives? Do we know anything about the flowability of any of the metal-to-metal bonds? Is there anything out there that has a specific affinity to aluminum? Do we have any knowledge of how long to cure any of the H-T adhesives? How hard do we gotta squeeze to get permanent bonding? What would be a good place on a Zenith to try bonding? (my first thought is the interior seams on ailerons, flaps, and wingtips.) Hhhmmmm---Wouldn't a 601 look cool with no rivets? LET THE GAMES BEGIN!! Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair Doomed to wander forever in the canopy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 15/11/2006 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:45 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New thread, sticky subject Right, Paul W, I'm "what-if-ing", and it'll probably be quite a while before we whip out the glue tube after inventorying parts. I'd like to see what happens after several years in hostile atmosphere, but it's fun to speculate, and maybe do a tillt research where it won't matter. A long time ago, a friend and I brainstormed on electric-setting glue Just zap it with a few volts, and voila, a bond. We just haven't fi gured out what happens if you fly into a thunderstorm. (hey, didn't I have two wings before that lighting flash?)=0A=0APaul Rodriguez =0ADo not archive=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A From: Paul Mulwitz =0A To: zenith-li st@matronics.com =0A Sent: Thurs day, November 16, 2006 2:28 PM=0A Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New th read, sticky subject=0A=0A=0A --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz >=0A=0A Hi Paul,=0A=0A I guess you are expecti ng someone to come along and pop your balloon =0A about substituti ng glue for rivets on a CH designed metal =0A airplane. I would n ot want you to be disappointed.=0A=0A While there are indeed ma ny advances in adhesives, there is still no =0A substitute for goo d engineering. The kits (and plans) we are =0A building are integ rated designs which do not lend themselves to major =0A redesign o f one part without analyzing the impact on the rest of the parts. =0A=0A Even if the glued joints are stronger than rivets, there is the =0A possibility they will deteriorate very quickly when expos ed to real =0A world conditions like heat, vibration, UV light, ch emicals, air =0A pollution, and who knows what.=0A=0A My su ggestion to you is if you want to glue a plane together then =0A f ind one of the many wood plane designs or plans for the BD-1 or its br ethren.=0A=0A Paul=0A XL fuselage=0A do not archive =0A=0A=0A At 11:37 AM 11/16/2006, you wrote:=0A > Does any body know what the operating life of a bond is, with the =0A > hi- tech adhesives? Do we know anything about the flowability of any =0A > of the metal-to-metal bonds? Is there anything out there that h as a =0A > specific affinity to aluminum? Do we have any knowledge of how long =0A > to cure any of the H-T adhesives? How hard do w e gotta squeeze to =0A > get permanent bonding? What would be a go od place on a Zenith to =0A > try bonding? (my first thought is th e interior seams on ailerons, =0A > flaps, and wingtips.) Hhhmmmm- ======================= ======================= eroElectric www.aeroelectric.com=0A w.matronics.com/contribution ======================= ======================= ======================= ===========0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:37 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: AAaaaaadhesivesss Thanks to everybody who has, or is about to, chime in. Good, thoughtfu l comments. It may still be somewhat beyond our homebuilding capabilit ies, but I expect that somebody out there will figure a home-brewed wa y to do it. One of these days we'll get a crate of parts and several tubes of polychlorograbfast, and we'll be off and running. And, with the yet-to-be-developed solvent, be able to disassemble anything that needs upgrading or repair.=0A=0APaul Rodriguez=0A601XL/Corvai r=0A=0ADo not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:14 PM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: AAaaaaadhesivesss FYI, the Titan T-51 is built with rivets and structural adhesive: http://www.titanaircraft.com/ http://www.titanaircraft.com/files/T-51_Brochure_e_on-line.pdf Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada On 17/11/06, paulrod36@msn.com wrote: > > Thanks to everybody who has, or is about to, chime in. Good, thoughtful > comments. It may still be somewhat beyond our homebuilding capabilities, but > I expect that somebody out there will figure a home-brewed way to do it. > One of these days we'll get a crate of parts and several tubes of > polychlorograbfast, and we'll be off and running. And, with the > yet-to-be-developed solvent, be able to disassemble anything that needs > upgrading or repair. > > Paul Rodriguez > 601XL/Corvair > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Floats From: "Charley Zurian" If anyone is interested in taking a shot at developing foam and fiberglass floats for a 701, contact me off the list! I have a few ideas.... Charley cz@transfx.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:05 PM PST US From: Tim Verthein Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator Wow! Something I have a *little* experience with anyway.... The Facet fuel pumps are the same as Purolator fuel pumps (I'm not sure if it was a name change or company buy out or what) and they are often used on Corvair CARS. Oddly, I come from a household full of Corvairs..I drive a '64, my son has a '65. We drive 'em every day, and also autocross them. In the Corvair *car* world.... These fuel pumps are way better at PUSHING fuel, rather than pulling it, hence the car guys generally mount their pumps at the crossmember right under the fuel tank at the front of the car (the engine is in the back, remember) and it pushes fuel the car length to the carbs in back. Most of us then use a regulator to keep the pressure around 3-4. And *most* car guys install TWO important safety items....a switch that shuts it off in case of impact, AND a oil pressure switch that shuts it off when the pressure drops when the engine quits, so it dosen't keep on pumping gas in an accident situation, or should you let the car idle to warm up on a 20 below zero winter morning...have it stall while you run in for more coffee, and pump gas all over. The pumps are noisy..the clicking takes some getting used to, but as has been mentioned, in a plane, with the engine running you probably can't hear them no matter where you mount them, but in the CAR with it mounted right under the front passenger floor, you can hear it all the time! I like to think of it as an audible failure alert system. Oh..and having had a lot of experience with these pumps...when one conks out, it can often be brought back to life just by tapping on it. Not handy in a plane, but when your Corvair conks out on the side of the road, it can get ya going again! Personally, I carry a spare in the car. Tim in Bovey Rudder done (at the workshop) Saving up to order the rest of the tail Building a workbench == You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! == ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:33 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator Which pump do you use? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Verthein" Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 4:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel pump - gascolator > > > Wow! Something I have a *little* experience with anyway.... > > The Facet fuel pumps are the same as Purolator fuel pumps (I'm not sure > if it was a name change or company buy out or what) and they are often > used on Corvair CARS. Oddly, I come from a household full of > Corvairs..I drive a '64, my son has a '65. We drive 'em every day, and > also autocross them. In the Corvair *car* world.... > > These fuel pumps are way better at PUSHING fuel, rather than pulling > it, hence the car guys generally mount their pumps at the crossmember > right under the fuel tank at the front of the car (the engine is in the > back, remember) and it pushes fuel the car length to the carbs in back. > Most of us then use a regulator to keep the pressure around 3-4. > > And *most* car guys install TWO important safety items....a switch that > shuts it off in case of impact, AND a oil pressure switch that shuts it > off when the pressure drops when the engine quits, so it dosen't keep > on pumping gas in an accident situation, or should you let the car idle > to warm up on a 20 below zero winter morning...have it stall while you > run in for more coffee, and pump gas all over. > > The pumps are noisy..the clicking takes some getting used to, but as > has been mentioned, in a plane, with the engine running you probably > can't hear them no matter where you mount them, but in the CAR with it > mounted right under the front passenger floor, you can hear it all the > time! I like to think of it as an audible failure alert system. > Oh..and having had a lot of experience with these pumps...when one > conks out, it can often be brought back to life just by tapping on it. > Not handy in a plane, but when your Corvair conks out on the side of > the road, it can get ya going again! Personally, I carry a spare in > the car. > > Tim in Bovey > > Rudder done (at the workshop) > Saving up to order the rest of the tail > Building a workbench > > == > You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor! > == > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibous floats From: "billmileski" A couple years ago I flew a 701 at Skyshops in Fla, that had Czech four-wheel amphib floats on it. This was from a grass field. Landing, takeoff, and handling on water, with two people, was impressive. The installation had been redesigned to be more like a traditional float plane, and the looks and performance were teriffic. I'm pretty sure this package is still available and I think still in the 8K range. They would be my first choice. Bill M Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75367#75367 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:36 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: , sticky subject Re: Adhesive for alum: I repaired a couple of wing tanks on my RV3 a couple of yrs ago, I built these tanks in the mid 70's and used Proseal and rivets. When taking them apart I drilled out the rivets and intended to just pop the parts loose from each other. NOT!! The alum would TEAR (025 and032) before the proseal let go, I was amazed at the peel strength of the stuff. This airplane has over 2000 hrs and is painted brown so it gets pretty warm in the Texas sun sitting on the beach. I live (RWJ Airpark) less than a mile from salt water and 10 miles from the largest refinery in the country so it gets plenty of humidity and pollution. I have no clue what point I'm trying to make other than if I had to build an alum airplane and use no rivets I would vote for Proseal or one of it's cousins. It's also a LOT of fun to put on. LOW&SLOW John ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:29 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibous floats Bill, I flew that airplane also and was also impressed. I talked to Grant Rappe (Skyshops demo pilot with a LOT of 701/amphib time) at LENGTH and he brought up a point I had not thought of which convinced me to go with the 3 wheel combo and the tundra tire on the front. He pointed out that the front wheels on the 4 wheel floats are small enough to be almost useless in beaching the aircraft on anything other than a hard surface ramp. They bury themselves. My intended use is a LOT of operation off/on the beach so I went with the 3 wheel version. LOW&SLOW John From: billmileski To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 7:59 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibous floats A couple years ago I flew a 701 at Skyshops in Fla, that had Czech four-wheel amphib floats on it. This was from a grass field. Landing, takeoff, and handling on water, with two people, was impressive. The installation had been redesigned to be more like a traditional float plane, and the looks and performance were teriffic. I'm pretty sure this package is still available and I think still in the 8K range. They would be my first choice. Bill M Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75367#75367 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:17 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel system Does anyone have a diagram of the dual coil dual pump wiringfor the corvair. I saw one on someone's site and can't for the life of me find it now. I do remember it said WW thought it was pretty neat and it uses 2 batteries. Any help would be appreciated. Jeff do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:33 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: , sticky subject You would still need the rivets to hold the parts together while the Proseal set up... A lot of fun to put on???? Lets be honest here.... Proseal would give dirt a good name. Make sure you never touch it wet or you will find it smeared over half the country ;-) Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Bolding Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 10:38 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: , sticky subject Re: Adhesive for alum: I repaired a couple of wing tanks on my RV3 a couple of yrs ago, I built these tanks in the mid 70's and used Proseal and rivets. When taking them apart I drilled out the rivets and intended to just pop the parts loose from each other. NOT!! The alum would TEAR (025 and032) before the proseal let go, I was amazed at the peel strength of the stuff. This airplane has over 2000 hrs and is painted brown so it gets pretty warm in the Texas sun sitting on the beach. I live (RWJ Airpark) less than a mile from salt water and 10 miles from the largest refinery in the country so it gets plenty of humidity and pollution. I have no clue what point I'm trying to make other than if I had to build an alum airplane and use no rivets I would vote for Proseal or one of it's cousins. It's also a LOT of fun to put on. LOW&SLOW John ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:25 PM PST US From: "Dino Bortolin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel system Mark Langford pioneered this setup on his KR2S. His site is probably the one you're thinking of. http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/electrical/index.html WW's 601 is similar. He uses an oil pressure switch on the "main" side to shut the fuel pump off in a crash. I think he has a single battery. On 11/17/06, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone have a diagram of the dual coil dual pump wiringfor the > corvair. I saw one on someone's site and can't for the life of me find it > now. I do remember it said WW thought it was pretty neat and it uses 2 > batteries. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Jeff > do not archive > > * > * > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:47 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New thread, sticky subject I don't know I think it would be kinda fun taking off in a glued together 601.... If you did somehow manage to get it airborne and got some altitude and speed up you could wait for the last piece to fall off then parachute back to earth ... providing you didn't glue your parachute together.....come to think of it........ If you dont want to see rivets buck them Do not archive In a message dated 11/16/2006 3:29:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz Hi Paul, I guess you are expecting someone to come along and pop your balloon about substituting glue for rivets on a CH designed metal airplane. I would not want you to be disappointed. While there are indeed many advances in adhesives, there is still no Substitute for good engineering. The kits (and plans) we are building are integrated designs which do not lend themselves to major redesign of one part without analyzing the impact on the rest of the parts. Even if the glued joints are stronger than rivets, there is the possibility they will deteriorate very quickly when exposed to real world conditions like heat, vibration, UV light, chemicals, air pollution, and who knows what. My suggestion to you is if you want to glue a plane together then find one of the many wood plane designs or plans for the BD-1 or its brethren. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 11:37 AM 11/16/2006, you wrote: > Does anybody know what the operating life of a bond is, with the > hi-tech adhesives? Do we know anything about the flowability of any > of the metal-to-metal bonds? Is there anything out there that has a > specific affinity to aluminum? Do we have any knowledge of how long > to cure any of the H-T adhesives? How hard do we gotta squeeze to > get permanent bonding? What would be a good place on a Zenith to > try bonding? (my first thought is the interior seams on ailerons, > flaps, and wingtips.) Hhhmmmm---Wouldn't a 601 look cool with no rivets? ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:32 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel system Thats it thank you very much. do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:28 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibious floats To both gentlemen who flew the 701 with floats. I am having trouble getting the math to work out on the configurations you are describing. Gross WT 1100 -1150 lb amphib floats 136 -1/2 fuel 65 -empty WT 580 -------- remaining capacity 319 I think the numbers above are optimistic. What am I missing? Ray J. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Bolding Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 8:24 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibous floats Bill, I flew that airplane also and was also impressed. I talked to Grant Rappe (Skyshops demo pilot with a LOT of 701/amphib time) at LENGTH and he brought up a point I had not thought of which convinced me to go with the 3 wheel combo and the tundra tire on the front. He pointed out that the front wheels on the 4 wheel floats are small enough to be almost useless in beaching the aircraft on anything other than a hard surface ramp. They bury themselves. My intended use is a LOT of operation off/on the beach so I went with the 3 wheel version. LOW&SLOW John From: billmileski To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 7:59 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibous floats A couple years ago I flew a 701 at Skyshops in Fla, that had Czech four-wheel amphib floats on it. This was from a grass field. Landing, takeoff, and handling on water, with two people, was impressive. The installation had been redesigned to be more like a traditional float plane, and the looks and performance were teriffic. I'm pretty sure this package is still available and I think still in the 8K range. They would be my first choice. Bill M Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75367#75367 http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron==== ================= ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:10 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: N601XT gets airborne... A little... Gents, Thanks for the on and off list words of encouragement. I battled a few issues this morning, but finally got her more than 20' off the runway. First, the "never used" radio that I paid several hundred bucks for was not transmitting properly. I swapped it out with the $200 ebay radio, and was good to go. Then, I battled a carburetor issue for a couple hours with more taxi tests. I have a homemade mixture gage installed, so I could see that I was getting very lean at full throttle. I did not have quite enough movement on the mixture knob, leaning out at higher power settings with the knob at full rich. (The Aerocarb has a simple needle valve for mixture control, which varies at different power settings.) I got her airborne, but only to the downwind, as I was getting some excessively high oil temperatures. I climbed to pattern altitude, and just came around for landing. Using my laser temperature pointer, I found that the sender is off by quite a bit, and the oil temp was actually around 200 deg. If I can make it to the airport tomorrow, I will fix the probe issues and get some real testing done. I don't have much to report on performance. I was only getting 2800 RPM on takeoff, yielding 800 - 1000 FPM on the Corvair with a Warp Drive set at 9.5 deg at the tip. I will probably drop down to 9 deg to try to get the RPMs up a bit. The chromoly rings don't have a lot of run-in time, so that is probably not helping much. -Yup. It had a heavy left wing too... -No pictures yet. I'll send some along when I get some. R/ Brandon Tucker --------------------------------- Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr - MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Associate - Click now to apply ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:24 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibious floats Typically, you are allowed to add 100lbs to your gross due to the float being considered a self lifting body. So your 701 will have an acceptable Gross of 1200lbs. Also I prefer the 3 wheeled version on the 701if you are ever going on grass. The castering nose wheels of the 4 wheeled floats need to be under speed to turn on pavement, grass is just a pain in the tuckus (ass) Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. HYPERLINK "mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of raymondj Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 10:55 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibious floats To both gentlemen who flew the 701 with floats. I am having trouble getting the math to work out on the configurations you are describing. Gross WT 1100 -1150 lb amphib floats 136 -1/2 fuel 65 -empty WT 580 -------- remaining capacity 319 I think the numbers above are optimistic. What am I missing? Ray J. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Bolding Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibous floats Bill, I flew that airplane also and was also impressed. I talked to Grant Rappe (Skyshops demo pilot with a LOT of 701/amphib time) at LENGTH and he brought up a point I had not thought of which convinced me to go with the 3 wheel combo and the tundra tire on the front. He pointed out that the front wheels on the 4 wheel floats are small enough to be almost useless in beaching the aircraft on anything other than a hard surface ramp. They bury themselves. My intended use is a LOT of operation off/on the beach so I went with the 3 wheel version. LOW&SLOW John From: HYPERLINK "mailto:mileski@sonalysts.com"billmileski "mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com"zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 7:59 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 amphibous floats "mailto:mileski@sonalysts.com"mileski@sonalysts.com> A couple years ago I flew a 701 at Skyshops in Fla, that had Czech four-wheel amphib floats on it. This was from a grass field. Landing, takeoff, and handling on water, with two people, was impressive. The installation had been redesigned to be more like a traditional float plane, and the looks and performance were teriffic. I'm pretty sure this package is still available and I think still in the 8K range. They would be my first choice. Bill M Read this topic online here: HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75367#75367"http://forums.m atronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75367#75367 http://www.matron ===================== href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron "http://www.aeroelectric.com"www.aeroelectric.com "http://www.buildersbooks.com"www.buildersbooks.com "http://www.kitlog.com"www.kitlog.com "http://www.homebuilthelp.com"www.homebuilthelp.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List -- 11/16/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. 11/16/2006 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac Crash Discussion on AOPA forums From: "David X" Jim Pellien's obituary is here: http://www.legacy.com/washingtonpost/DeathNotices.asp?Page=SearchResults&txtLastName=Pellien -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75386#75386 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Loss of Jim Pellien in crash of 601VA From: "David X" Jim Pellien's obituary is here: http://www.legacy.com/washingtonpost/DeathNotices.asp?Page=SearchResults&txtLastName=Pellien Still nothing from NTSB. In lieu of flowers, contributions may be made in his name to the Sky Bryce Airport, c/o Sally Montrey, General Manager, Bryce Resort, P.O. Box 3, Basye, VA 22810. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75389#75389 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:30 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: N601XT gets airborne... A little... Congratulations! The "laser" thermometers are not terribly accurate either and also depend on the thermal emissivity of what you point them at. Although it may be impractical right now it would be better to calibrate the oil temp sender in a pan of hot oil on a stove with a good thermometer. How did the Stratomaster perform? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N601XT gets airborne... A little... From: "TxDave" Congratulations Brandon. Must have been a real thrill. Let us know how the oil temp issue turns out. do not archive Dave Clay http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75398#75398