---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/06/06: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - Fuel tank welding, what about brazing? (William Dominguez) 2. 05:53 AM - Re: Fuel tank welding, what about brazing? (Aaron Gustafson) 3. 06:21 AM - Re: Wing walk tread strip (Gig Giacona) 4. 06:26 AM - Re: Wing walk tread strip (Al Young) 5. 07:06 AM - Re: Welding Practice (Juan Vega) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Fuel tank welding, what about brazing? (Trainnut01@aol.com) 7. 07:16 AM - Re: 701 POH (Juan Vega) 8. 07:21 AM - Re: Forward Skin Access (Juan Vega) 9. 07:21 AM - Re: Wing walk tread strip (Bryan Martin) 10. 08:00 AM - Koger Sunshade (Timothy D. Perkins) 11. 08:00 AM - Stall warning (Tim Perkins) 12. 08:39 AM - CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested (MrBizi) 13. 09:17 AM - 801 Elevator Extension (Keystone Engineering LLC) 14. 09:55 AM - Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested (Gig Giacona) 15. 10:16 AM - Re: unbelievable! (Noel Loveys) 16. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: welding aluminum (Noel Loveys) 17. 10:38 AM - Re: Question for gas welders. (Noel Loveys) 18. 11:07 AM - Re: 701 POH (Keith Ashcraft) 19. 12:03 PM - Re: 801 Elevator Extension (Dave Ruddiman) 20. 12:15 PM - Auxillary fuel pump (Harrison-Hutcheson) 21. 12:42 PM - Re: unbelievable! (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 22. 01:53 PM - Re: unbelievable! (JOHN STARN) 23. 03:34 PM - Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested (Big Gee) 24. 03:42 PM - Re: unbelievable! (Big Gee) 25. 04:07 PM - Re: unbelievable! (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 26. 04:10 PM - Re: unbelievable! (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 27. 04:19 PM - Jeff Small's comments (George Swinford) 28. 04:29 PM - Do instruments need shock mounting? (Dan) 29. 04:51 PM - Re: 20 %meat, 80%BS (Bill Naumuk) 30. 04:53 PM - Re: Jeff Small's comments (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 31. 05:24 PM - Re: Wing walk tread strip (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 32. 06:12 PM - gas welding tanks (Brett Hanley) 33. 06:38 PM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (Phil Maxson) 34. 07:58 PM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (NYTerminat@aol.com) 35. 08:06 PM - Re: gas welding tanks (NYTerminat@aol.com) 36. 08:31 PM - Re: Fuel Tank Ends (Ron Lendon) 37. 08:41 PM - Re: Auxillary fuel pump (David X) 38. 08:44 PM - Re: Jeff Small's comments (Jeff) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:12 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel tank welding, what about brazing? First, thanks to al respondent of my previous questions about welding. I bought my gas welding equipment mostly to weld all the 4130 pieces and try if possible to weld the tanks. If I cant weld it I will try alternative methods like riveting and sealing like Vans or brazing with HTS-2000 rods that you can find in this site: http://aluminumrepair.com/ The price of this rod has gone down to $65 for 34 rods (minimum order). In their FAQ they say that it can be also used for aluminum fabrication but the rest of the site always refer to aluminum repair. If their claims are true this product looks very promising for brazing the tank and maybe more, take a look at the video in this page: http://aluminumrepair.com/video_new.asp (you might need to use IE to view it) Ive checked the archives and the only mentions of this product goes back to Jan 2004 by David Barth who questions if this product can be used. Have anyone tried this product? William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:48 AM PST US From: "Aaron Gustafson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank welding, what about brazing? Having done it myself, My advise is either to commit to lerning how to weld yourself (posibly time consuming) or have them welded by someone who knows how (posibly the cheapest way)! Anyone interested in my overall experiences contact me. Aaron Gustafson do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:03 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing walk tread strip From: "Gig Giacona" I know there has been lots of talk lately about adding DO NOT ARCHIVE to messages but this is taking it a little far. This was good info that should be archived. bryanmmartin wrote: > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79539#79539 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:48 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing walk tread strip Larry- I just installed wing walk a week ago. I used Acft Spruce P/N 09-28210. It is self adhesive and is no problem installing. In fact if you trim the corners to slightly round it won't peel up. when I decided to paint the plane, I decided to take up the wing walk before painting and then install new over the paint. It took me and a friend over two hours to get the adhesive off after peeling off the wing walk. I masked off the other wing and painted around it. It really has no grit on it to come off. I think you'll be happy with it. Regards, Al Young N601AY ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:14 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Wing walk tread strip > > Hi guys, > I'm looking at a roll of adhesive backed tread strip that has to be cut to > three pieces > to fit my wing walks and grumbling about how grossly coarse the grit is > and wishing > there were a better alternative. The black looks correct, but I've > concerns about it staying > where it is put and the grit coming loose. I should have purchased it > this week instead of > 3 years ago and now have doubts about its adhesive as well. > > Does anyone have a tread strip that they're happy with? Something that > once on has had > no qualms about it being too rough or hard to keep its shape year after > year. I'd like to hear > from anyone who's applied it and feel they've purchased the right stuff. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:32 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welding Practice remember Orvill Wright dude! Just trying to follow the path. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Ruddiman >Sent: Dec 5, 2006 3:12 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welding Practice > >Hey!! > >This isn't airplane stuff. What's the big idea!!! > >I have to go to work now. > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: thesumak@aol.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:44 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Welding Practice > > > Juan: > > If you are interested in building a recumbent bike from scrap bikes, there are a couple of web sites that might help you get started. Just search under recycled recumbents. > > Like Larry, I also built one as a welding and brazing project. It's a fun way to sharpen skills and when done, you have a very comfortable bike. > > do not archive > > Cheers, > > Bill > XL > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:06 AM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tank welding, what about brazing? We use the aluminum brazing products at work to build and repair Air Conditioner lines.While they work great for joining aluminum line and fittings they get real hard to deal with on sheets. The finished strength is really questionable. Carroll do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:12 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH JOe Go to Zenithair.com enter the 601site, then on upper right is builder's corner. enter that after getter pass word. in the 601xl section of builder's corner is the 601 POH in thenotices to builders section. Juan DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- >From: Joe and Joan >Sent: Dec 5, 2006 9:27 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH > > >Juan, I could not find the POH on the zenith aircraft company list. I do not >have their DVD. Do I need to buy it to get a POH. DO NOT ARCHIVE. Would >appreciate more info on how to get a copy. >One of the dudes from FL. Flying CH 701 912S > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Juan Vega" >To: >Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:54 PM >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH > >> >> >> >> Dudes, >> if you go on line or get a DVD disk from zenith, they have a copy of the >> Chech rotax powered POH. you can use that as a template then inject >> usefull tidbits of info in your own to customize it. Example" here in >> florida I put in the POH Pretake off check list "prior to entering active >> runway, make certain no Alligators in eccess of ten feet in length are on >> runway", once that is checked I then go to "confirm Coyotes are off the >> taxiway prior to taxiing to active". True Story to both. >> >> Juan >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: nyterminat@aol.com >>>Sent: Dec 4, 2006 11:16 AM >>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH >>> >>>Larry, >>> >>>You are required to have one. Pilot Operating Handbok >>> >>>Bob Spudis >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: lrm@skyhawg.com >>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>>Sent: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:02 AM >>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH >>> >>> >>>Ok, I'm having a brain fart. What's a POH? I may want one or I may >>>already have one. >>> >>>Larry, www.skyhawg.com >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: Tebenkof@aol.com >>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>>Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:48 PM >>>Subject: Zenith-List: 701 POH >>> >>> >>>Any kind soul out there who can steer me to an appropriate model for the >>>POH for my 701? The building work is just about done. I just woke up the >>>fact that the paper work is not. >>> >>>Jim Greenough >>>701 / 99.5321% complete >>>in Portland OR >>> >>> >>>href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com >>>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >>>href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com >>>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com >>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron >>> >>> >>> >>>Date: 11/28/2006 >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:00 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Forward Skin Access thank you for the info looking forward to the numbers. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: LarryMcFarland >Sent: Dec 4, 2006 11:08 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Forward Skin Access > > >Juan, >I built the bike with my daughter when I was teaching her to gas weld >this summer. It's a freehand design from three bikes. >The piece you speak of is well photographed in the canopy pages. The >j-nuts were purchased from McMaster-Carr and >I'll get the numbers for you tomorrow morning. These j-nuts cost about >$10.00 per package of 50. > >Larry > >Juan Vega wrote: >> >> great website by the way, you need to send me the plans for that kick ass recumbant Bike! >> Do you have close up pics of the portion of the turtle deck you riveted, the very end pieces adjacent to the canopy screw. I like your idea. >> >> Juan >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: LarryMcFarland >>> Sent: Dec 4, 2006 8:09 PM >>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Forward Skin Access >>> >>> >>> >>> Juan, >>> You needn't use nut plates for such a panel. J-nuts that work with 6-32 >>> screws can be used with considerable confidence. They are much cheaper >>> and don't let go. I've got them on my removable forward top skin and >>> I've had the top off probably a dozen times in two years and 85 hours of >>> flying my 601. On the leading edge overhanging the panel, I bent a >>> piece of 1/2-inch aluminum tube and used a Dremel cutter to cut a slit >>> on the edge and used 4 bent tabs to secure it with the same screws that >>> hold the forward top skin. >>> It's a much easier job, as you use almost 90 screws, but very secure and >>> the screws blend into the rivet heads. >>> >>> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/uclips.gif >>> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/firstcowlfitting.gif >>> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezclosefrtrt.gif >>> >>> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >>> >>> Juan Vega wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jay, >>>> >>>> that looks pertty cool. I like it. I was thinking on putting the entire piece on nutplates so the whole thing would come off. Am I missing something that would not make that possible? I think yours maybe better idea becasue you don't have to remove the canopy. I am also thinking of cutting and trimming the "head chopping" sun leadge on the panel, and replacing it with a leather one like on Cessnas. I found a place that can custom make one for cheap price. ANy thoughts? >>>> >>>> Juan >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:04 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing walk tread strip I used the black 3M brand adhesive backed tread tape in 4" width. I've had no trouble with it coming loose in over 100 hours of use. It can be peeled off with a bit of effort but it doesn't come loose on its own. I first applied a couple of strips on the wing walk with a space between them but later I decided to cover the entire wing root out to about a foot from the fuselage. I peeled off the old stuff and put new stuff on. Even after removal the adhesive on the old stuff was still very sticky. In fact I even reused some of the old stuff to fill in around the curve of the fuselage and on the boarding step. It's still holding strong. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:38 AM PST US From: "Timothy D. Perkins" Subject: Zenith-List: Koger Sunshade Due to an unusual circumstance, I have a spare Koger Sun Shade -- still in the box and never installed/used. Works great in the 601 canopy....keeps your head from getting too badly fried...and fairly easy to install. Cost is $160 new. Any offers? Please send replies OFF-LIST to Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:39 AM PST US From: "Tim Perkins" Subject: Zenith-List: Stall warning Has anyone mounted a Safe-Flight, ACS, or Reddish stall warning vane on their aircraft? Suggestions on positioning would be appreciated (photos/measurements would be great). Thanks in advance. Tim Perkins N1170Q Do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:21 AM PST US From: MrBizi Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested Hello. Does anyone know a good site where I can get accident statistics for the CH601 and CH701? I've seen some recent accidents in Zodiac XLs and that really concerns me. However, I'm wondering if the recent accidents are just a coinsidence that 3 happened in November 2006 or is that many accidents to be expected with this experimental class of planes? I'm trying to compare their safety record to that of a production plane like a Cessna. I read Chris Heintz's letter on his design techniques that said his designs should be safer.... but I'm looking for additional proof that they really are safer than the average experimental and to see if they are as safe as a production plane, etc. provided I build it per the plans. Please let me know. Thanks for any advice you might have. Thanks, Josh ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:23 AM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: 801 Elevator Extension As someone who has flown the short and long elevators with and without VGs, I feel I may have something to add to the discussion. The plane flys fine with all of the versions. I found I was able to fly slower, stabilized approaches as the elevator became more effective. With the small tail I found the plane sensitive in pitch at very slow speeds which made it difficult to stabilize a very slow approach. I am now able to fly short final at 45 mph. Before I was 50 mph or so. Even with the large tail with VGs I still cannot raise the nose with power. When the nose comes up the 801 will fly. The tail is just not in the prop wash. If the original tail is rated as 100. The original tail with VGs is probably 125. The larger tail is probably 130. The larger tail with VGs is probably 140. Realize this is a subjective rating system and I cannot back it up with data. Well, I take that back. At the Valdez May day fly-in competition with the original tail I was able to take off in 130'. With the bigger tail with VGs I got off in 113.5' I still run out of trim at slow approaches speeds. I'm contemplating adding VG to the top to try to increase the effectiveness of the trim tab. One more word to the wise. Do not fly approaches with full flaps when there is a significant crosswind!!! Keep the flaps up and the 801 handles crosswinds very well. Bill Wilcox N801BW 275 Hrs Valdez, Ak Performing condition inspection Where did all this oily dirt come from??? ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested From: "Gig Giacona" The problem with aircraft accident statistics at least as far as VFR/GA is the number that is used as a base to compare. The only way to compare is accidents per hours flown and who knows how many hours Cessna 172s were flown last year. I don't and neither does the FAA or NTSB. Any number you see is a simple wild ass guess because nobody has ever asked me officially how many 172 hours I've flown and I've never met anyone who has been asked. Even if there were good numbers on 172 hours flown there aren't enough 601 & 701 hours to statistically valid. Now I'm not saying that accident reports aren't a good thing to look at when choosing an aircraft but you need to look at what the cause of the accidents were. In the case of homebuilts you would probably expect to see a larger number of accidents that happen in the first several hours the plane was flying. Is that because there was a problem with the design or with the particular aircraft or was it because the pilot wasn't current because he had spent the last 5 years building the plane and not flying? I know if I finished my airplane today I would be a hazard to myself and anybody in my flight path because I'm no where close to current. Which is why before the plane is ready I plan to not only get some ours in a 601 but I'm also going to go get some Upset and unsual attidude training. To sum it up when looking at accident reports it isn't the number it is the causes that really mean something. If there is a design flaw the causes will show it sooner or later. [quote="mrbizi(at)yahoo.com"]Hello. Does anyone know a good site where I can get accident statistics for the CH601 and CH701? I've seen some recent accidents in Zodiac XLs and that really concerns me. However, I'm wondering if the recent accidents are just a coinsidence that 3 happened in November 2006 or is that many accidents to be expected with this experimental class of planes? I'm trying to compare their safety record to that of a production plane like a Cessna. I read Chris Heintz's letter on his design techniques that said his designs should be safer.... but I'm looking for additional proof that they really are safer than the average experimental and to see if they are as safe as a production plane, etc. provided I build it per the plans. Please let me know. Thanks for any advice you might have. Thanks, Josh > [b] -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79585#79585 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:14 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: unbelievable! You are assuming it is being done intentionally.... You are wrong! Sorry. do not archive Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Zenith-List: unbelievable! The zenith-list digest received this a.m. for 12/04/06 was 76 messages long and contained 160KB. The folks who don't know/use/care about 'do not archive' were at it again as well as those who think everything they write is humorous and MUST be shared with the world. When received in my mailbox the digest contains a blue hyperlink for each poster. I'm sure there's a name for that item but being less than knowledgeable about computer/e-mail programs I fail to know it. When clicked on that link opens an e-mail message board that allows direct correspondence with the poster. If you need to ask for info or respond to an offer of pics/help, why not respond directly to the poster. Wouldn't this make the list less encumbered with "I'd like to see that too," or "I plan on doing it that way," or my favorite, "What's the wx at your place?" Please ask yourself if your post is relevant to the hundreds of others on this list - if it's not then send it off-list to the person directly. The list was never meant to be a chat-list. No wonder some of the lurkers around the world think we're so arrogant in this country. As I've been on this list since late '98 maybe I'm old-fashioned and need to leave, but the lack of civility lately is discouraging. Regards Jeff Small ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:24 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: welding aluminum Chances are the scrap you picked up at the construction yard is pure aluminium. Stuff used in aviation are exact alloys. The aviation stuff can be tempered after welding if you have the proper heating equipment. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Zed Smith > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:53 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: welding aluminum > > > > List, > > First of all, I am NOT very good at welding aluminum. > That said, I did purchase a TIG welder three years ago, and > learned to join various items. > > As Larry mentioned, TIG is good. Takes practice and > patience, and it helps if you can get some instruction. > > An elderly fellow, who claimed he could weld magnesium to > Dynamite, showed me the finer points of using a stainless > steel brush to "clean, clean, and clean again". > > Short version of this is: If it isn't clean, it won't TIG weld. > Seems that typical aluminum alloys melt at 1100 F while the > oxide film you didn't clean off won't melt until about 3300 > degrees F. > > After you learn to run a continuous arc across a clean area, > then move that arc to an area which still has the oxide film, > you will quickly see the problem: The base metal will melt > and run out while the oxide film just gets hot and only > futher contaminates the puddle. Stainless steel brushes are > a lot cheaper than 6061. > Helps to have an 'electronic' welding hood.....you can see > exactly where you're about to make a mess before striking the arc. > > I'd offer this: If you can weld steel, you can weld > aluminum. You will have to un-learn a few things; the most > obvious being that, unlike steel, the aluminum does NOT > change color with heat.....it just changes from solid to > liquid and ruins your day. The aluminun could be compared to > electrical solder; it "flows" with sufficient heat. After > you have melted several square feet of the 6061 you will > develop an eye for this. > > One other "tip" which I had to learn the hard way: Scrap > aluminum picked up on construction sites, etc, is not good > practice material. There is no way of knowing what was > recycled to produce it. Cut-offs from door frames are > examples. That stuff was made to be bolted, not welded. I'm > not sure it is actually real aluminum. > > Anyway, in summation, and according to the elderly fellow, if > 'robots' can do it you can do it if you clean it immediately > prior to welding. Waiting even a half-hour is too long. > > Haven't tried welding two beer cans yet. > > Regards, > > Zed > > absolutely do not archive stuff from Zed's Welding School!! > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:35 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Question for gas welders. Carbon fibre is a good idea but it is very porous. Make sure the interior of your tank is well coated with some kind of gel coat. Also you will want to stay away from Ethanol degraded fuels... I have heard of one fellow who has had good luck by adding a bit of "top lube" to his gas. Apparently the oil protects the composite fillers from the effects of 10% Eth. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Trainnut01@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Question for gas welders. William I wound up just about as frustrated as Scott on welding the tanks. I could not do it. Several local welders who said they could actually couldn't. I gave up. My new carbon fiber tanks will be ready for testing soon. They look good and fit beautifully but have not been tested yet. I'll know a lot more in a couple of weeks. Carroll Jernigan do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:55 AM PST US From: Keith Ashcraft Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH All 701 builders/fliers. Here is a modified version, of the POH I think people are talking about. I got it from somewhere-sometime. It is the CZECH version. I had started converting items over to US units and such (kph to mph) etc.. See if it works for any of you!! It is a Zip file of a Word Doc!! Keith's CH701 POH Rev A Otherwise, keep building/flying. And ask for "more tools" for Christmas, just like I have!! Keith CH701 Sidewinder Teenie Two (nothing flying) N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' ****************************************************** Juan Vega wrote: > >JOe >Go to Zenithair.com enter the 601site, then on upper right is builder's corner. enter that after getter pass word. in the 601xl section of builder's corner is the 601 POH in thenotices to builders section. > >Juan > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > >-----Original Message----- > > >>From: Joe and Joan >>Sent: Dec 5, 2006 9:27 AM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH >> >> >>Juan, I could not find the POH on the zenith aircraft company list. I do not >>have their DVD. Do I need to buy it to get a POH. DO NOT ARCHIVE. Would >>appreciate more info on how to get a copy. >>One of the dudes from FL. Flying CH 701 912S >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Juan Vega" >>To: >>Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:54 PM >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>Dudes, >>>if you go on line or get a DVD disk from zenith, they have a copy of the >>>Chech rotax powered POH. you can use that as a template then inject >>>usefull tidbits of info in your own to customize it. Example" here in >>>florida I put in the POH Pretake off check list "prior to entering active >>>runway, make certain no Alligators in eccess of ten feet in length are on >>>runway", once that is checked I then go to "confirm Coyotes are off the >>>taxiway prior to taxiing to active". True Story to both. >>> >>>Juan >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>> >>> >>>>From: nyterminat@aol.com >>>>Sent: Dec 4, 2006 11:16 AM >>>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH >>>> >>>>Larry, >>>> >>>>You are required to have one. Pilot Operating Handbok >>>> >>>>Bob Spudis >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: lrm@skyhawg.com >>>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>>>Sent: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:02 AM >>>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 POH >>>> >>>> >>>>Ok, I'm having a brain fart. What's a POH? I may want one or I may >>>>already have one. >>>> >>>>Larry, www.skyhawg.com >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: Tebenkof@aol.com >>>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>>>Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:48 PM >>>>Subject: Zenith-List: 701 POH >>>> >>>> >>>>Any kind soul out there who can steer me to an appropriate model for the >>>>POH for my 701? The building work is just about done. I just woke up the >>>>fact that the paper work is not. >>>> >>>>Jim Greenough >>>>701 / 99.5321% complete >>>>in Portland OR >>>> >>>> >>>>href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com >>>>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >>>>href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com >>>>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com >>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Date: 11/28/2006 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > -- ************************************* *Keith Ashcraft* ITT Industries Advanced Engineering & Sciences 5009 Centennial Blvd. Colorado Springs, CO 80919 (719) 599-1787 -- work (719) 332-4364 -- cell keith.ashcraft@itt.com ************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:21 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 Elevator Extension Bill, What is the "real" indicated stall speed on your plane? Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Keystone Engineering LLC To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 9:14 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 801 Elevator Extension As someone who has flown the short and long elevators with and without VGs, I feel I may have something to add to the discussion. The plane flys fine with all of the versions. I found I was able to fly slower, stabilized approaches as the elevator became more effective. With the small tail I found the plane sensitive in pitch at very slow speeds which made it difficult to stabilize a very slow approach. I am now able to fly short final at 45 mph. Before I was 50 mph or so. Even with the large tail with VGs I still cannot raise the nose with power. When the nose comes up the 801 will fly. The tail is just not in the prop wash. If the original tail is rated as 100. The original tail with VGs is probably 125. The larger tail is probably 130. The larger tail with VGs is probably 140. Realize this is a subjective rating system and I cannot back it up with data. Well, I take that back. At the Valdez May day fly-in competition with the original tail I was able to take off in 130'. With the bigger tail with VGs I got off in 113.5' I still run out of trim at slow approaches speeds. I'm contemplating adding VG to the top to try to increase the effectiveness of the trim tab. One more word to the wise. Do not fly approaches with full flaps when there is a significant crosswind!!! Keep the flaps up and the 801 handles crosswinds very well. Bill Wilcox N801BW 275 Hrs Valdez, Ak Performing condition inspection Where did all this oily dirt come from??? ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:05 PM PST US From: "Harrison-Hutcheson" Subject: Zenith-List: Auxillary fuel pump Looking for information concerning need for an auxiliary fuel pump for a CH701 with Rotax 912S engine. Previous flight experience has been basically limited to a low-wing Piper Cherokee 140 which had an auxiliary electric fuel pump that was turned on at several times during a flight - like prior to starting the engine, take-off, landing, and any thing else you did where you really did not want to starve the engine of fuel. I have both main and auxiliary fuel tanks installed so the fuel system will either feed from main tanks (both sides) or auxiliary tanks (both sides) hopefully bypassing the potential problem of making turns with the fuel selector pointing to the lowered wing. If it is desirable (needed?) to have an auxiliary electric fuel pump I would like to solicit information of what pump, sender, and gauge would be appropriate. Thanks in advance, Sam Hutcheson CH701 N6412Z (reserved) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:32 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: unbelievable! WTF this list has got to be the most childish list Matt works with. I have never seen so many cry babies congregate in one area of the Internet and I don't really care who the hell gets pissed about it. You don't want to see useless emails well what the hell was yours? Why don't you go build something and leave the people that want to just post a reply alone you jerk off? This list sickens me anymore. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Zenith-List: unbelievable! The zenith-list digest received this a.m. for 12/04/06 was 76 messages long and contained 160KB. The folks who don't know/use/care about 'do not archive' were at it again as well as those who think everything they write is humorous and MUST be shared with the world. When received in my mailbox the digest contains a blue hyperlink for each poster. I'm sure there's a name for that item but being less than knowledgeable about computer/e-mail programs I fail to know it. When clicked on that link opens an e-mail message board that allows direct correspondence with the poster. If you need to ask for info or respond to an offer of pics/help, why not respond directly to the poster. Wouldn't this make the list less encumbered with "I'd like to see that too," or "I plan on doing it that way," or my favorite, "What's the wx at your place?" Please ask yourself if your post is relevant to the hundreds of others on this list - if it's not then send it off-list to the person directly. The list was never meant to be a chat-list. No wonder some of the lurkers around the world think we're so arrogant in this country. As I've been on this list since late '98 maybe I'm old-fashioned and need to leave, but the lack of civility lately is discouraging. Regards Jeff Small ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:44 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: unbelievable! Sorry but if you want to locate the largest whinners ya gotta go to the RV-10 list BUT you will have to donate some cheese to go with their Whine. 8*) KABONG At least there was a do not archive embedded in Jeff Small's post or this one would be with us for all time too ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: unbelievable! WTF this list has got to be the most childish list Matt works with. I have never seen so many cry babies congregate in one area of the Internet and I don't really care who the hell gets pissed about it. You don't want to see useless emails well what the hell was yours? Why don't you go build something and leave the people that want to just post a reply alone you jerk off? This list sickens me anymore. The folks who don't know/use/care about 'do not archive' were at it again as well as those who think everything they write is humorous and MUST be shared with the world. Regards Jeff Small ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:50 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested Hi Josh, I don't know if you mean the published reports by the NTSB or ano ther type of study which someone has done.=0A=0AMy opinion only, Chris H. has designed some very safe aircraft. Unfortunately, there have been some very bad accidents with the 601. Some, "pilot induced", a couple of accid ents are still being investigated.------------ of all the accidents, I am w ondering, (NOT SPECULATING) and waiting for the NTSB report on the one whi ch came apart in flight with a man and his wife on board. (this one raises my eyebrow, thats why I feel very comfortable with the "changes I have mad e on my XL fuel /electrical system.)=0A(not implying anything----- just say ing I made some changes which I the builder/pilot of MY airplane feels more comfortable with)=0A=0AIf you want to see a truely impressive safety recor d, check out the 701 on the NTSB. =0A=0ATo be fair, the "study" should als o show the causes of the accidents. As you mentioned earlier, a lot of ac cidents are caused by fuel mismanagement. =0A=0AFritz XL -- 90/90-- Corv air=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: MrBizi =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 11 :37:09 AM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info req uested=0A=0A=0AHello.=0ADoes anyone know a good site where I can get accide nt statistics for the CH601 and CH701? I've seen some recent accidents in Zodiac XLs and that really concerns me. However, I'm wondering if the rece nt accidents are just a coinsidence that 3 happened in November 2006 or is that many accidents to be expected with this experimental class of planes? =0A =0AI'm trying to compare their safety record to that of a production pl ane like a Cessna.=0A =0AI read Chris Heintz's letter on his design techniq ues that said his designs should be safer.... but I'm looking for additiona l proof that they really are safer than the average experimental and to see if they are as safe as a production plane, etc. provided I build it per th e plans.=0A =0APlease let me know. Thanks for any advice you might have. =============0A=0A=0A =0A__________________________ __________________________________________________________=0AAny questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:21 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: unbelievable! AfterFxllc---- I'll consider the source--- but I think Jeff probable has be en flying his airplane for some time now----- I could be wrong about that, but I agree with Jeff 100%. This list is very abused.=0AFritz=0ADO NOT AR CHIVE=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Afterfxllc@aol.com" =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, Decembe r 6, 2006 3:41:30 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: unbelievable!=0A=0A=0AWTF this list has got to be the most childish list Matt works with. I have neve r seen so many cry babies congregate in one area of the Internet and I don' t really care who the hell gets pissed about it.=0AYou don't want to see us eless emails well what the hell was yours? =0AWhy don't you go build someth ing and leave the people that want to just post a reply alone you jerk off? =0AThis list sickens me anymore.=0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: o wner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matr onics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small=0ASent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:28 PM=0ATo: zenith-list=0ASubject: Zenith-List: unbelievable!=0A=0A=0AThe zeni th-list digest received this a.m. for 12/04/06 was 76 messages long and con tained 160KB.=0A =0AThe folks who don't know/use/care about 'do not archive ' were at it again as well as those who think everything they write is humo rous and MUST be shared with the world. =0A =0AWhen received in my mailbox the digest contains a blue hyperlink for each poster. I'm sure there's a name for that item but being less than knowledgeable about computer/e-mail programs I fail to know it. When clicked on that link opens an e-mail mess age board that allows direct correspondence with the poster. If you need t o ask for info or respond to an offer of pics/help, why not respond directl y to the poster. Wouldn't this make the list less encumbered with "I'd lik e to see that too," or "I plan on doing it that way," or my favorite, "What 's the wx at your place?"=0A =0APlease ask yourself if your post is relevan t to the hundreds of others on this list - if it's not then send it off-lis t to the person directly. The list was never meant to be a chat-list.=0A =0ANo wonder some of the lurkers around the world think we're so arrogant i n this country.=0A =0AAs I've been on this list since late '98 maybe I'm ol d-fashioned and need to leave, but the lack of civility lately is discourag =========================0A ===============0A=0A___________________________ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:25 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: unbelievable! Well KABONG I didn't add the do not archive because I knew that it was in his but if it makes you Feel better............... Do not archive is this ok SIR KABONG ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:26 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: unbelievable! Well, I guess we should ask permission to speak then sheeezz it is a freaking email list good God lighten up. do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:12 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Jeff Small's comments Jeff is one of the long time "good guys" on this list. He helped me a great deal with documentation on his alternative canopy latch, for no more than the asking. I'm sure I'm not the only one to benefit from his advice. In my view, his recent comments are well taken and very much too the point. Using "Do not archive" is a matter of courtesy, and courtesy seems to be lacking these days. George Double do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:04 PM PST US From: Dan Subject: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? I quickly looked in the archive and did not see any recent discussion on how to mount the instrument panel. I plan on installing just the basic steam gages on my 701 and will be installing either a Rotax 80 or 100 HP engine. Do these instruments need to be shock isolated? Those of you who are actually flying, what has been your experience. Dan ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:28 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 20 %meat, 80%BS God forbid. I deserve 30 lashes with a wet noodle. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:44 PM Subject: 20 %meat, 80%BS All- The header says it all. The list has turned into a hen party rather than a source of information. Incidentally, Ron B. from Nuvite- is anyone going to answer my questions? I'd like to finish my project BEFORE I have no recourse but to go SP. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:48 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jeff Small's comments I have no problem with the do not archive. I have a problem with him saying to answer off list. If we all did this then this list would be all but dead.... If you agree with Jeff then I wont be getting any responses about this post since it has nothing to do with zenith aircraft ....... but somehow I doubt it will go un answered. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:10 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing walk tread strip Al, I lost your address and was waiting for you to post again to answer your question. The distance from the ground to the rear tie down loop is 550 mm. Or at least that it how high mine is. Hope your building is progressing and best regards, Bill of Georgia ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:55 PM PST US From: Brett Hanley Subject: Zenith-List: gas welding tanks I just blew off welding the tanks. I bought a quart of proseal from Van"s aircraft for fifty bucks including shipping. Then I riveted the tanks toge ther. I got bigger tanks as a result, did not waist any material and had t hem done in less than a week. I am not that impressed with the result of w elded tanks even when done by experts. This is one area that has been a pr oblem for many kit makers including Zenith from time to time. If you are wo rried about proseal being strong enough I challenge you to try to separate two pieces that where riveted and prosealed together. That will change you r mind. In my opinion the weld is weaker and more prone to fatigue failure . Learning to weld aluminum would be a great way to spend some time. But I think it wise to practice on some thing other than a gasoline tank.=0A =0ABrett=0A=0A=0A =0A______________________________________________________ ______________________________=0AHave a burning question? =0AGo to www.Ans wers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:52 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? I am using a Corvair with a simple steam gauge panel. I used the panel as supplied in the kit, cut the holes with a fly cutter, and mounted it according to plans. Nothing shock mounted. No problems in 120 hours. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey -----Original Message----- From: "owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com" on behalf of "Dan" Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:28 AM To: "zenith-list@matronics.com" Subject: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? I quickly looked in the archive and did not see any recent discussion on how to mount the instrument panel. I plan on installing just the basic steam gages on my 701 and will be installing either a Rotax 80 or 100 HP engine. Do these instruments need to be shock isolated? Those of you who are actually flying, what has been your experience. Dan ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:06 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? Dan, I installed vibration mounts on my whole panel. Bob Spudis N701ZX CH701/912S In a message dated 12/6/2006 7:30:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dwilde@clearwire.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dan I quickly looked in the archive and did not see any recent discussion on how to mount the instrument panel. I plan on installing just the basic steam gages on my 701 and will be installing either a Rotax 80 or 100 HP engine. Do these instruments need to be shock isolated? Those of you who are actually flying, what has been your experience. Dan ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:50 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: gas welding tanks Brett, Is there any problem with auto fuel with the proseal? On the RV list some expressed concern that the proseal would deteriorate over time with the auto fuel. Bob Spudis N701ZX In a message dated 12/6/2006 9:14:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bretttdc@yahoo.com writes: I just blew off welding the tanks. I bought a quart of proseal from Van"s aircraft for fifty bucks including shipping. Then I riveted the tanks together. I got bigger tanks as a result, did not waist any material and had them done in less than a week. I am not that impressed with the result of welded tanks even when done by experts. This is one area that has been a problem for many kit makers including Zenith from time to time. If you are worried about proseal being strong enough I challenge you to try to separate two pieces that where riveted and prosealed together. That will change your mind. In my opinion the weld is weaker and more prone to fatigue failure. Learning to weld aluminum would be a great way to spend some time. But I think it wise to practice on some thing other than a gasoline tank. Brett ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Tank Ends From: "Ron Lendon" Wayne, I will keep the list updated on my experiences. Going to have the welding done by a pro at work, will take pictures and document the process. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79737#79737 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Auxillary fuel pump From: "David X" I would recommend an aux fuel pump, even in a high-wing such as the 701. There is no guarantee that the fuel will continue by gravity-feed if the main mechanical pump fails. You need an alternate route for the fuel if the main pump goes. The Facet pumps are quite economical, reliable and easy to replace when they go bad. I split the fuel line after the sump, one line goes to the mechanical fuel pump, one to the electric aux pump. The output of both pumps join together before splitting again to the two carbs. The pressure gauge and transducer that comes with the Rotax Engine is adequate. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79739#79739 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:30 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jeff Small's comments Agreed. I certainly have benefited from Jeff Small's advice in a big way - my engine choice. He also had a role in pioneering the Jabiru FWF installation for the 601 so the entire Zenith community has benefited from his efforts. Jeff Davidson do not archive _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:17 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Jeff Small's comments Jeff is one of the long time "good guys" on this list. He helped me a great deal with documentation on his alternative canopy latch, for no more than the asking. I'm sure I'm not the only one to benefit from his advice. In my view, his recent comments are well taken and very much too the point. Using "Do not archive" is a matter of courtesy, and courtesy seems to be lacking these days. George Double do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.