Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:25 AM - Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
2. 05:40 AM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (NYTerminat@aol.com)
3. 06:25 AM - Re: Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors (Craig Payne)
4. 06:30 AM - Re: Welding fuel tanksWelding fuel tanks (Peter Sonders)
5. 06:37 AM - Re: Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive (Steve Hulland)
6. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
7. 07:44 AM - Re: vg's (Tebenkof@aol.com)
8. 08:40 AM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (Bill Steer)
9. 08:57 AM - Forward Top Skin-601HD (Lumkes, John H)
10. 09:31 AM - Re: vg's (Joe and Joan)
11. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Auxillary fuel pump (Juan Vega)
12. 09:41 AM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (Ron Lalonde)
13. 09:48 AM - travel stop and tow bar ring (LarryMcFarland)
14. 10:10 AM - Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Eddie G.)
15. 10:40 AM - Re: Forward Top Skin-601HD (ALAN BEYER)
16. 10:50 AM - Re: vg's (Josh Olson)
17. 11:37 AM - Interesting/Funny Mistake on the Part of the FAA (Gig Giacona)
18. 11:40 AM - Re: travel stop and tow bar ring (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
19. 12:39 PM - Nose gear strut 601 (john butterfield)
20. 12:39 PM - Re: Forward Top Skin-601HD (LarryMcFarland)
21. 12:41 PM - Re: vg's (Tebenkof@aol.com)
22. 12:55 PM - Slats myth busted! (John Gilpin)
23. 12:55 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (george may)
24. 12:55 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Carlos Sa)
25. 01:20 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (NYTerminat@aol.com)
26. 01:21 PM - Big mistake (Neitzel)
27. 01:24 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Eddie G.)
28. 01:35 PM - Insturment shock mounts (Mark Sherman)
29. 01:43 PM - Re:582,EIS,17volts (Zed Smith)
30. 01:55 PM - Re: Welding fuel tanks (roy vickski)
31. 02:03 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Noel Loveys)
32. 02:10 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (Charles Wacker)
33. 02:36 PM - Re: Big mistake (Dave G.)
34. 02:36 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (Gig Giacona)
35. 02:40 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (LarryMcFarland)
36. 03:23 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (David Downey)
37. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: Welding fuel tanks (Wade Jones)
38. 04:34 PM - Re: Forward Access skin. (T. Graziano)
39. 04:51 PM - Re: Slats myth busted! (n801bh@netzero.com)
40. 05:25 PM - Re: Pilot Test Game (Jim Hoak)
41. 10:52 PM - More flight testing (Brandon Tucker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
I would like to thank everyone that made a Contribution in support of the Lists
this year! It was really nice to hear all great comments people had regarding
the Lists! As I have said many times before, running these Lists is a labor
of love. Your generosity during the List Fund Raiser only underscores the great
sentiments people have made regarding the Lists.
If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser please
feel free to do so. The nice List gifts will be available on the site for
just a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution and get your
great gift. Once again, the URL for the Contribution web site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises ( http://www.kitlog.com ), Jon Croke of Homebuilt HELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Paul, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated!
And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2006 List of Contributors current
as of 12/7/06! Have a look at this list of names as these are the people
that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you enough
for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
THANK YOU!
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2006.html
I will be shipping out all of the gifts in the next few weeks and hope to have
everything out by the end of the month. In most cases, gifts will be shipped
via US Postal Service. Kitlog Pro serial numbers should go out via email this
weekend.
Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? |
In a message dated 12/7/2006 11:56:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
4rcsimmons@comcast.net writes:
Dear List,
The shock mounting for the gauges is new to me but makes sense.
Can some one send me a pictorial example of how this is acomplised!
Are certified aircraft done this way?
I think this is a gooe question so do not ???????
Happy days there mates!
Aircraft Spruce has different types of mounts, I used the 1" square Lord
type. Used the Zenith supplied panel for the backer panel to mount the shoc
k
mounts, and used a two piece panel over it, one for the gauges and one for
my
avionics. Cut out the Zenith panel to allow the front panel and instruments
to
slide into.
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| Subject: | Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors |
Matt,
Big thanks for hosting all the lists. If you send me my Home-built Help DVD
via US mail please send it to:
Craig Payne
P.O. Box 982617
Park City, UT 84098
Also, I would still love to host the MGL Stratomaster list on Matronics
instead of Yahoo. Their system is fairly unreliable and their support
unresponsive. I guess you get what you pay for.
-- Craig
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Welding fuel tanksWelding fuel tanks |
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive |
Do not really like to talk politics, etc. on this forum - but!
I have visited more than eighty countries around the world during my 62
(today) years. I have found that most of the average people really like
folks from this country - at least those who are working and trying to have
a better life. Many governments do not - because they see how shitty their
system is compared to ours. Even if their system does provide for the
average person very well. Most well to do folks in business also enjoy
working with people from this country and our fairly open business
environment. A great number are very jealous for one reason or another.
Another great number are so uneducated that they only listen to religious or
political bull-shit that builds hatred and rage. None of them have
immigration problems anything like ours because most educated and
intelligent folks know a good thing when they see it and try to go there.
Some folks may think talking religion and politics is a waste of time, but
it is not. Politics and religion are the root of many wars, etc. Not talking
about and doing something (vote, etc) about them leads to really shitty
living conditions for the average man. Most important thing to remember is:
Freedom is and never will be cheap or for the faint of heart. The freedom to
talk about anything at any time is but one important aspect of freedom. If
you do not like talking about them on this or any forum, tough! The folks in
Germany did not talk about them very much during the 1920's & 30's - look
what they got!!
Just remember to put in:
Do Not Archive
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive |
Happy Birthday
In a message dated 12/8/2006 9:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
marinegunner@gmail.com writes:
Do not really like to talk politics, etc. on this forum - but!
I have visited more than eighty countries around the world during my 62
(today) years. I have found that most of the average people really like folks
from this country - at least those who are working and trying to have a better
life. Many governments do not - because they see how shitty their system is
compared to ours. Even if their system does provide for the average person very
well. Most well to do folks in business also enjoy working with people from
this country and our fairly open business environment. A great number are
very jealous for one reason or another. Another great number are so uneducated
that they only listen to religious or political bull-shit that builds hatred
and rage. None of them have immigration problems anything like ours because
most educated and intelligent folks know a good thing when they see it and try
to go there. Some folks may think talking religion and politics is a waste of
time, but it is not. Politics and religion are the root of many wars, etc.
Not talking about and doing something (vote, etc) about them leads to really
shitty living conditions for the average man. Most important thing to remember
is: Freedom is and never will be cheap or for the faint of heart. The freedom
to talk about anything at any time is but one important aspect of freedom.
If you do not like talking about them on this or any forum, tough! The folks
in Germany did not talk about them very much during the 1920's & 30's - look
what they got!!
Just remember to put in:
Do Not Archive
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
Message 7
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Joe,
I have been off the list for a time. Is this VGs instead of slats an idea
that has been talked about some? Is there some reason to think VGs may be
superior? Your numbers are eagerly awaited.
I have considered using VGs in additon to the slats on my 701 (not yet
flying), but had not considered eliminating the slats. Can you give me more info
on this idea?
Jim Greenough
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? |
That's true, but the directions that came with my PAI-700 vertical card
compass explicitly said the instrument should be shock mounted. I'm
attaching a shock-mounted panel in front of the original structural
panel. To do that, I've reinforced the structural panel with the usual
"L" angle around the top and across the bottom so it ends up wuth a
U-shaped channel behind the panel. The top angle can be shaped with a
metal stretcher. I also have a vertical reinforcing "L" angle near the
center. Then the center of the structural panel is cut out. The new
front panel is then attached to this framework with vibration mounts I
got from Reid Tool. Some folks have used multiple front panels so they
can easily get access to the back of the panel. The removable top skin
gives the same or better access, of course. Note that the reinforcing
"L" angle costs about an inch of real estate around the edge of the
original panel. I don't have any pictures of it, but can take some if
anybody is interested.
Hope this helps.
Bill
I've always heard that you should shock mount your gyros and the rest
didn't matter. It seems to make sense, but there are a lot of panels
that mount everything solid and don't seem to have any problems.
The shock mounting for the gauges is new to me but makes sense.
Can some one send me a pictorial example of how this is acomplised!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Forward Top Skin-601HD |
Hello,
With the discussion about accessing the instrument panel, it reminded me of
a related question that I could not locate the answer to in the archives. I
am still working on a 601HD (finishing firewall assembly) and planning on
using the side opening canopy with the latching mechanism modification. I
would also like to have the forward top skin removable for access to the
instrument panel, but am concerned that with the side opening canopy the top
skin is more structurally necessary (no side rails like with the forward
hinge) and it might not be a good idea to use rivnuts in place of the
rivets.
Question 1: Are rivnuts okay in this model and canopy style?
Question 2: If not, are there examples of adding an access hatch on the top
skin between the tank and instrument panel?
Thanks,
John
Message 10
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Jim, I got my ideas and vg's from the www.stolspeed.com site located in
Australia. They have good numbers and what they say has certainly
worked for me so far. Bad winds here so I hav'nt finised testing, but
sure looks great so far. do not archive Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: Tebenkof@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's
Joe,
I have been off the list for a time. Is this VGs instead of slats an
idea that has been talked about some? Is there some reason to think VGs
may be superior? Your numbers are eagerly awaited.
I have considered using VGs in additon to the slats on my 701 (not yet
flying), but had not considered eliminating the slats. Can you give me
more info on this idea?
Jim Greenough
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Auxillary fuel pump |
to all:
I have been giving the question of accurate fuel burn some thought. Fuel senders
have allways been and are notorious for not giving accurate readings. And some
are concerned about tanks draining without pilots noticing (highly unlikely).
One solution I have found is to place a fuel flow sensor between engine
driven fuel pump and carborator. It is a really easy task, just cut the hose
between the two and place the sensor. Fire coat it allong with the rest of the
furel line, then run the wires to the EIS. Taadaa! Placing a fuel flow sensor
close to the carb allows me to measure fuel rate/hour and fuel remaing by
telling the computer how many gallons in the tanks and or using simple math to
tell me whats left. Down side is that for the over paranoid, it won't tell
you if there is a leak. Only way to get around that is to keep the fuel guage
in place and if they look lower than what the fuel flow says there should be,
you then have detected the lease. ex: just took off
for one hour with full 30 gallons. Fuel flow meter says I am burning 5.5/hour.
Tank guages say I now have 1/2 tanks? something is up.
What is nice about a fuel flow sensor is that we all know tank guages are not that
accurate, so now you have a second source of info coming in and can cross
refernce. Good luck.
-----Original Message-----
>From: David X <dxj@comcast.net>
>Sent: Dec 7, 2006 8:30 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Auxillary fuel pump
>
>
>
>4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net wrote:
>> that presurizing the gascolator may not tbe the best of ideas
>
>
>Agreed. Better to place the aux fuel pump after the sump.
>
>Also not a good idea to feed all fuel through the aux pump, even if it has a pass-thru
capability ... because they have been known to malfunction.
>
>The output from the fuel selector should go to the sump, then the line splits
after the sump to go to the inputs of the two fuel pumps. It's unavoidable to
rejoin the outputs of the two pumps prior to feeding the carb(s).
>
>--------
>Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79981#79981
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? |
For what it is worth, it is a cheap fix. I put the shock mounts on the panel
mount of my VP2 and it works great. Will do the same on this 601XL project.
Dont really know if it was necessary but I am sure it did not hurt. Better
safe than sorry, especially considering the cost of even the basic a/c
instruments.
Ron Lalonde
601XL
Debert, NS
Canada
>I've always heard that you should shock mount your gyros and the rest
>didn't matter. It seems to make sense, but there are a lot of panels that
>mount everything solid and don't seem to have any problems.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rich
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 8:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting?
>
>
> Dear List,
>
> The shock mounting for the gauges is new to me but makes sense.
>
>
> Can some one send me a pictorial example of how this is acomplised!
>
>
> Are certified aircraft done this way?
>
>
> I think this is a gooe question so do not ???????
>
>
> Happy days there mates!
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Download now! Visit http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/ to enter and see
how cool it is to get Messenger with you on your cell phone.
http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
Message 13
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| Subject: | travel stop and tow bar ring |
Hi guys,
I've finally put the mill in gear and have been finishing the
travel stops and tow bar rings for the 2-inch front gear strut.
Several have been mailed to catch up with those that requested
them some weeks or months ago. I should have half a dozen extra
when the current mailings are complete. If there is anyone else
that I've forgotten or needs one, please let me know off line.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-and-stear-link.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-&-ground-handli.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezclosefrtrt.gif
Thanks,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? |
Greetings,
Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can recommend on VHF antenna
basics, selecting and installating antennas on metal-frame aircrafts, avionics,
connectors, wiring, etc.?
Thanx...Eddie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p179#80179
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Top Skin-601HD |
John,=0A=0AOn Dec. 4th I sent a post on my inspection covers on my HDS with
pics. If you can't find it I can send you the pics.=0A=0AAL from Oshkosh
=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Lumkes, John H" <lumkes@ex
change.purdue.edu>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, December
8, 2006 10:56:36 AM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: Forward Top Skin-601HD=0A=0A
=0AHello,=0A =0AWith the discussion about accessing the instrument panel, i
t reminded me of a related question that I could not locate the answer to
in the archives. I am still working on a 601HD (finishing firewall assembly
) and planning on using the side opening canopy with the latching mechanism
modification. I would also like to have the forward top skin removable for
access to the instrument panel, but am concerned that with the side openin
g canopy the top skin is more structurally necessary (no side rails like wi
th the forward hinge) and it might not be a good idea to use rivnuts in pla
ce of the rivets.=0AQuestion 1: Are rivnuts okay in this model and canopy s
tyle?=0AQuestion 2: If not, are there examples of adding an access hatch on
the top skin between the tank and instrument panel?=0A =0AThanks,=0AJohn
===
Message 16
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Has anyone ever put VGs on the 601xl? How do those numbers compare?
Thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe and Joan" <jnjkimbell@hotmail.com>
Sent: 12/8/06 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's
Jim, I got my ideas and vg's from the www.stolspeed.com site located in Australia. They have good numbers and what they say has certainly worked for me so far. Bad winds here so I hav'nt finised testing, but sure looks great so far. do not archive Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: Tebenkof@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's
Joe,
I have been off the list for a time. Is this VGs instead of slats an idea that
has been talked about some? Is there some reason to think VGs may be superior?
Your numbers are eagerly awaited.
I have considered using VGs in additon to the slats on my 701 (not yet flying),
but had not considered eliminating the slats. Can you give me more info on
this idea?
Jim Greenough
Message 17
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| Subject: | Interesting/Funny Mistake on the Part of the FAA |
I was looking for an address of a 601 builder today and searched the faa database.
Check out the engine type on the second group of AMD built 601XLs
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p200#80200
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: travel stop and tow bar ring |
Great looking plane. I hope to fly mine next spring. The ring for the nose
gear is a great idea. How much do you want for one? Let me know. I will
send you a check.
Thanks
Dave Harms
Waterloo, Iowa
videoflyer@aol.com
601XL/Corvair
Message 19
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| Subject: | Nose gear strut 601 |
hi list,
i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am
concerned about the stiffness of the up and down
movement.
it seems really tight, but that is without an engine
on or even the engine mount.
should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing
down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would
have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few
inches. i assume that on landing, it will work
properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i
would rather take it off now and open up the bearings
a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it
should be
thanks in advance
john butterfield
601XL corvair
torrance, ca
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Top Skin-601HD |
John,
I've looked at the side opening canopy on a HD and consider the
removable forward top skin not to be different from the problems
of the forward opening canopy on the XL. The number of fasteners needed
for the skin total near 90 and one can use j-nuts rather than rivnuts
or plate nuts. The sum total of the fasteners make a rather solid
assembly regardless. The difference would be that a piece each side
riveted to the longerons would have to be bent to accept the removable
skin for side fastening around the perimeter of the access. Better that
the firewall and instrument panel be part of the J-nut assembly for
access. There are lots of examples of other smaller access panels that
can be done, but real access is the challenge.
I don't particularly like rivnuts as they eventually spin and make a
difficult time of getting a screw out and they are long for the location
when a header tank is involved.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Lumkes, John H wrote:
> Hello,
>
> With the discussion about accessing the instrument panel, it reminded
> me of a related question that I could not locate the answer to in the
> archives. I am still working on a 601HD (finishing firewall assembly)
> and planning on using the side opening canopy with the latching
> mechanism modification. I would also like to have the forward top skin
> removable for access to the instrument panel, but am concerned that
> with the side opening canopy the top skin is more structurally
> necessary (no side rails like with the forward hinge) and it might not
> be a good idea to use rivnuts in place of the rivets.
> Question 1: Are rivnuts okay in this model and canopy style?
> Question 2: If not, are there examples of adding an access hatch on
> the top skin between the tank and instrument panel?
>
> Thanks,
> John
> *
>
> *
Message 21
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Joe,
thanks for the VG reference. It looks quite interesting.
Jim
do not archive
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| Subject: | Slats myth busted! |
Gday, I'm JG, the fella who started all this kafuffle about removing the
slats from 701s. It's sure stirred up a debate, just as I knew it
would, and I've really enjoyed watching from the side-lines, but now I
think it's time to comment.
This is understandably a controversial move, since those slats are very
much a defining feature of the 701. So I need to explain the history
and experience that led to this move - it certainly wasn't just a wild
idea on an impulse.....
I've been fascinated by the Zenair 701 ever since a magazine article
in1988 entitled "Freight Elevator to the Stars!". The 701 in that test
report was the prototype, powered by a 50hp Rotax 503! It was a
revolutionary aircraft, and I was immediately impressed, and ordered a
set of plans. In 1990 I went to Sun'Fun and spent most of the week
hanging around the Zenair site and helping to assemble the 701
quick-build kit that was the feature of their display in those days. It
was at that display that I met the Columbians who had already tried
their 701's without slats and liked them better that way, and had the
slats hung up in their hangars. That image has been intriguing me ever
since, and lots of book study on aerodynamics and real life observation
of different aircraft made it appear truly inevitable. The
responsibilities of a young family kept me from building a 701 earlier,
but in that time I did fly a single-seat Spectrum Beaver ultralight for
1000 hrs, and modified another Beaver into a twin-engine machine and
flew it for 200hrs. Now I finally have the time, and a really good home
workshop for aircraft construction, in which we've built two Savannahs
from kits, and Hans and I have rebuilt three crashed 701's, two of them
with extensive damage, so we know every rivet in these machines! (Each
of them had slats at the time of the crashes, but don't anymore...)
Hans with his 701 and I with my Savannah each flew about 200hrs in the
last year without slats, so we're certainly not 'hangar flyers'. In my
case that included a 5000km (3000mile) round trip to Tasmania, with all
the variable conditions that you encounter on such a trip, and landings
into some challenging small strips. Hans did a 2500km (1500mile) trip
to North Queensland and back in very wild and windy conditions, with a
passenger and full load. We both fly 'intensively' and are forever
trying STOL tactics and landing into tight spots - we do know our
aircraft really well! So, that's a summary of the history and
experience that I use to guide these experiments with VGs instead of
slats.
So we're not guessing how the aircraft will fly without slats - we
already know the answer to that! I wouldn't have published the results
if I wasn't absolutely certain of the facts, checked and double checked.
In that article, "The True Story of Leading Edge Slats", at
www.stolspeed.com , I tried to demonstrate all the testing and
validation that had gone into it. I won't go over all that again now,
but if there are questions that I didn't cover in that article then
bring them on and we'll look at them.
Another bit of interesting evidence that has come to mind is to watch
those aircraft with retractable slats. I've seen a video of one
manufacturer doing very slow turns, with the slats on the inner wing
popping in and out on their own - no apparent change in handling. Also
Carl Bertrand's experiments with his retractable slat wing, when one
slat stuck - "....very little effect, only light aileron and rudder
required....". That just confirms the effect that I would expect from
my testing.
You sure would think that the rather bluff leading edge of the wing
without the slats would be slower in cruise than a 'finer' leading edge.
I had thought this as well, and even had already made up new front ribs
with the same profile as the wing with slats on, for the new leading
edge I thought I was going to need after removing the slats. But when I
did the tests with the slats on and the slots covered over, I got a real
surprise! Cruise speed was the same as with the bluff leading edge!
But the stall was much more abrupt, and the centre of lift had moved
forward such that I now had a seriously aft CofG. So now I won't change
that leading edge at all. Those unused ribs still gather dust on a top
shelf in my workshop - such are the surprises of experimental
work.........
It's well known that a full-rounded leading edge is good for stall
characteristics, and this wing that's left after you remove the slats
from a 701 is just perfect in that regard. I've flown it to the limit
again and again, and with VGs it's never ever let me down hard!
Another surprise was the dramatic effect of the VGs. I had read that
they reduced the stall speed a bit and improved low speed handling, but
I was amazed at how much difference they made! They allow pretty much
the same STOL performance as the slats did, but give much better cruise
efficiency, and the landings are easier.
Slats are known as a high-lift device, but it should also be noted that
they are also a high drag device. The high lift only comes in at the
very high angles of attack, but the drag is there at all speeds, and
goes from high at cruise to extremely high at stall aoa. The only time
I've found a use for all that drag is for power-on spot-landings. Nose
way high, hanging on the slats and the prop, 'dragging' the aircraft in
below flying speed, with power controlling the descent. Can't see where
you're going with the nose so high, but easy to do a spot landing that
way - just reduce the power and it'll drop down right now, no floating
on. But a real serious down-side of all that drag is getting caught
behind the power curve, or getting caught in an increasing stall
condition without power. Just imagine all that drag at the highest
point of the aircraft, not only slowing you down really quickly but also
tending to pull the nose up - makes it increasingly difficult to
recover...... A few 701's been bent that way.........
At cruise, all that the slats give is d-r-a-g-g-g..... It takes power
to overcome that drag. I saved $250 on fuel on a 50hr trip (4 litres/hr
less burn @ $1.30/litre) alongside an identical aircraft with slats, so
now I've probably already saved $1000 over the 200hrs without slats!
There is another benefit of slats (not worth considering), is that in
the event of a collision with trees or such hard objects they absorb
lots of impact and protect the main structure of the wing...... After
repairing those crashed machines we had a pile of mangled slats out
behind the workshop, until I sent them away for recycling..... We
haven't found any real use either for the good slats we've taken off,
except to hang them up in the roof of the hangar - makes a good ornament
and conversation starter......
So the slats myth is well and truly 'busted'. To me it's just amazing
that someone, including Zenair, hadn't worked this out this long
ago......
JG
Message 23
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| Subject: | Nose gear strut 601 |
John--
It should be very stiff at the point you are at. Once the engine is in
place you will notice more elasticity. Keep building---
George May
601XL 912s----19 hours-
>From: john butterfield <jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
>To: Zenith-List Digest Server <zenith-list-digest@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601
>Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:35:35 -0800 (PST)
>
><jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
>
>hi list,
>i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am
>concerned about the stiffness of the up and down
>movement.
>
>it seems really tight, but that is without an engine
>on or even the engine mount.
>
>should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing
>down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would
>have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few
>inches. i assume that on landing, it will work
>properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i
>would rather take it off now and open up the bearings
>a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it
>should be
>
>thanks in advance
>john butterfield
>601XL corvair
>torrance, ca
>
>
>Have a burning question?
>Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version.Join now.
http://ideas.live.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? |
I suggest a visit to www.aeroelectric.com
And, of course, there is the aeroelectric list @ Matronics.
Just follow the link to the Matronics Navigator page, in the trailer
below...
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
On 08/12/06, Eddie G. <silentlight@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> Greetings,
>
> Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can recommend on
> VHF antenna basics, selecting and installating antennas on metal-frame
> aircrafts, avionics, connectors, wiring, etc.?
>
> Thanx...Eddie
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? |
Eddy,
I got the book from _www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com) .
Well worth the investment.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX CH701/912S
In a message dated 12/8/2006 1:11:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
silentlight@verizon.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie G." <silentlight@verizon.net>
Greetings,
Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can recommend on VHF
antenna basics, selecting and installating antennas on metal-frame
aircrafts, avionics, connectors, wiring, etc.?
Thanx...Eddie
Message 26
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Greetings all,
Thought I would pass this along so someone else does not make the same
mistake that I did. When I finished my wings I needed to get them out
of a bulging basement so transported them to my hangar. I had a bunch
of foam rubber and thought that would be a good way to keep them apart.
Put the first wing on foam then scattered some more foam blocks on top
and carefully set the second wing on top. I then covered with a tarp
and put some large pieces of cardboard on top of that to avoid hangar
rash. When I retrieved the left wing to bring back to my basement work
shop to fit flaperon and slat, I discovered that the rubber foam stuck
to the wing in several places. Even a trace of corrosion in a couple of
places. I have already experimented with polish to make sure these
spots will come out and looks like no problem. They were only in the
hangar for four months can only imagine what they would have looked like
if it had been longer. My hangar is nice and dry but I guess foam
rubber sucks moisture from the air. Bottom line I don't recommend
rubber foam for long term storage/seperation of parts.
Also was wondering if there are any 582 guru's out there. Got a high
volt indication on the EIS (17+ volts). Checked tightness of bonding
straps and all other related wiring and found none loose. It has 150
hours on it and the battery is only 18 months old. Any thoughts? Any
easy way to check the regulator?
Thanks ahead of time.
Dick Neitzel
Sayner, WI
701 Jabiru 2200
N962WB
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? |
Carlos, thanx for pointing to the Aeroelectric list! I hadn't noticed it before!!!!
Eddie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p232#80232
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|
| Subject: | Insturment shock mounts |
Here is a couple of pictures of the insturment shock mounts I used from Air
craft Spruce. Three on top and four on the bottom. The sub panel sticks o
ut about 3/8" from the base panel.=0A=0AThe other picture is the fuse block
and common ground block I have mounted on the inside of the glove box door
.=0A=0AMark S.=0A701/912S=0A=0A=0A =0A_____________________________________
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re:582,EIS,17volts |
You might check first to see if the EIS is accurate. No particular reason to doubt
it, but measure a 9-volt battery with your handy digital voltmeter.....pull
the EIS voltage-sensing wire loose and try it on the battery. Use a clip lead
from battery minus to airframe. If the EIS shows same as voltmeter then you
can proceed to regulator, etc.
No pun intended, but no charge for this bit of wisdom.
Regards,
Zed
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE et cetera
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Welding fuel tanks |
Wade,
I used .040 5052 H32 with 5356 rod and had excellent
results, this is what I learned after fabricating 2
"practice" tanks.
Trim and form the tank ends after the body of the tank
is welded, I got a much nicer fit this way and fit is
everything. I relieved the flanged corners of the
ends, this made for a no gap fit, don't worry if there
is a little hole in each corner. I tacked each joint
in the middle then the middle again and again until
there was a tack every inch or so.
I made tank #3 with the bead and tank #4 without. I
have come to find that the technical reason for the
bead is weld stress expansion, a eighth in. radius on
the end flange helps here also.
If you have your senders they can be adjusted and fit
while the sides are off and it is much easier to
flange the bung openings if you have access to the
inside.
I laid about 150 inches of weld bead on surplus
material over the course of a month or so to get
really comfortable. 60 amps and 15cfh was about right.
Bright and shiny clean material is a given and wipe
the rod with a clean rag and alcohol. Plan start to
finish welding on one tank in one setting and don't be
shy with the filler rod. Have your pressure test stuff
and stainless brush handy, fix the pinholes before the
material can oxidize, Lincoln electric says you are
good for a couple of days but I like to strike while
the torch is hot, so to speak.
good luck and have fun
Roy Szarafinski
701 plans
south Michigan 22deg F and lovely
Message 31
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| Subject: | Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? |
Jeppsen publishes a book on Instruments and avionics for A&P That should
cover all the instruments and avionics. Jeppsen is usually kept up to date.
For all you really want to know and were afraid to ask about VHF
communications I can recommend the ARRL amateur radio hand book. That book
around the size of AC43 with even more pages will instruct you on how your
radios work and how to tune your antennas. Get the ARRL book first. After
reading the section on Antennas the Jeppsen will make a lot more sense.
Noel
Canadian Advanced Amateur Radio Operator
Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Intern
Canadian Rec_PP
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eddie G.
> Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:39 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation?
>
>
> <silentlight@verizon.net>
>
> Greetings,
>
> Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can
> recommend on VHF antenna basics, selecting and installating
> antennas on metal-frame aircrafts, avionics, connectors, wiring, etc.?
>
> Thanx...Eddie
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p179#80179
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Nose gear strut 601 |
I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down movement
is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are also very
stiff.
Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I have
thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think that my be a
bad idea.
Thoughts.
Chuck Wacker
N601CW Quick Build
>From: john butterfield <jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
>To: Zenith-List Digest Server <zenith-list-digest@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601
>Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:35:35 -0800 (PST)
>
><jdbutterfield@yahoo.com>
>
>hi list,
>i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am
>concerned about the stiffness of the up and down
>movement.
>
>it seems really tight, but that is without an engine
>on or even the engine mount.
>
>should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing
>down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would
>have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few
>inches. i assume that on landing, it will work
>properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i
>would rather take it off now and open up the bearings
>a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it
>should be
>
>thanks in advance
>john butterfield
>601XL corvair
>torrance, ca
>
>
>Have a burning question?
>Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
Message 33
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|
I'm no guru but this might be the cause. The standard rectifier for the
582 requires a minimum 1 amp draw, any less and you'll get high voltage
spikes. Good luck.
----- Original Message -----
From: Neitzel
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 5:21 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Big mistake
Greetings all,
Also was wondering if there are any 582 guru's out there. Got a high
volt indication on the EIS (17+ volts). Checked tightness of bonding
straps and all other related wiring and found none loose. It has 150
hours on it and the battery is only 18 months old. Any thoughts? Any
easy way to check the regulator?
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Nose gear strut 601 |
That's strange. I got my engine mount installed and then put a chunk of concret
on it that mught weigh 60 or 70 lbs and while the pedals still are stiff i can
move them without too much force.
Before the concrete I couldn't move them at all.
ccwacker(at)HOTMAIL.COM wrote:
> I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down movement
> is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are also very
> stiff.
>
> Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I have
> thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think that my be a
> bad idea.
>
> Thoughts.
>
> Chuck Wacker
> N601CW Quick Build
>
>
>
> > From: john butterfield
> > To: Zenith-List Digest Server
> > Subject: Nose gear strut 601
> > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:35:35 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > hi list,
> > i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am
> > concerned about the stiffness of the up and down
> > movement.
> >
> > it seems really tight, but that is without an engine
> > on or even the engine mount.
> >
> > should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing
> > down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would
> > have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few
> > inches. i assume that on landing, it will work
> > properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i
> > would rather take it off now and open up the bearings
> > a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it
> > should be
> >
> > thanks in advance
> > john butterfield
> > 601XL corvair
> > torrance, ca
> >
> >
> >
> > Have a burning question?
> > Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p249#80249
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Nose gear strut 601 |
Charles,
If you don't have nylon bearings, the steering could be expected to be a
bit more stiff. With nylon, the steering should not be stiff at all if
the plane is rolling. If you don't have nylon, the bearings will soon
make their own clearances. With nylon, the wear will be nil. I'd not
modify the bearings but for adding nylon to the steering support arms,
lower bearing and top bearing. You only need a 1/16-inch clearance in
the aluminum if you've got nylon that has a snug sliding fit.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Charles Wacker wrote:
> <ccwacker@hotmail.com>
>
> I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down
> movement is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are
> also very stiff.
>
> Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I
> have thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think
> that my be a bad idea.
>
> Thoughts.
>
> Chuck Wacker
> N601CW Quick Build
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Nose gear strut 601 |
You might want to consider substituting UHMW for Nylon unless the application can
get really warm.
Charles,
If you don't have nylon bearings, the steering could be expected to be a
bit more stiff. With nylon, the steering should not be stiff at all if
the plane is rolling. If you don't have nylon, the bearings will soon
make their own clearances. With nylon, the wear will be nil. I'd not
modify the bearings but for adding nylon to the steering support arms,
lower bearing and top bearing. You only need a 1/16-inch clearance in
the aluminum if you've got nylon that has a snug sliding fit.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Charles Wacker wrote:
>
>
> I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down
> movement is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are
> also very stiff.
>
> Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I
> have thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think
> that my be a bad idea.
>
> Thoughts.
>
> Chuck Wacker
> N601CW Quick Build
Dave Downey
in SE PA
---------------------------------
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Welding fuel tanks |
Thanks Roy sounds like sound advice .I have not worked on the plane for a
couple of days due to equipment repair .To the group ,I was real proud of
myself today .Last year I bought an old good looking Airco welding machine
because it had AC/DC &HF needed for Aluminum welding .After getting it home
it would not weld on AC or DC however the HF was working .I found that by
hooking this machine to my other machine that does not have HF I was able to
weld Aluminum .Now for the good part ,today I determined that one of the
diodes was shorted to ground .After reading the schematic for awhile I
decided that I could eliminate the diodes and bypass them as they were not
needed unless DC welding is required .By doing this the machine works great
on AC &HF and that is what it was bought for .I also found some replacement
diodes locally for $30.00 each ,which I will replace at a later date and
restore my DC welding capabilities .Sorry about the long post but I was
proud to find out this could be done ,and may be of help to someone else .
Wade Jones
----- Original Message -----
From: "roy vickski" <rvickski@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welding fuel tanks
>
> Wade,
> I used .040 5052 H32 with 5356 rod and had excellent
> results, this is what I learned after fabricating 2
> "practice" tanks.
>
> Trim and form the tank ends after the body of the tank
> is welded, I got a much nicer fit this way and fit is
> everything. I relieved the flanged corners of the
> ends, this made for a no gap fit, don't worry if there
> is a little hole in each corner. I tacked each joint
> in the middle then the middle again and again until
> there was a tack every inch or so.
>
> I made tank #3 with the bead and tank #4 without. I
> have come to find that the technical reason for the
> bead is weld stress expansion, a eighth in. radius on
> the end flange helps here also.
>
> If you have your senders they can be adjusted and fit
> while the sides are off and it is much easier to
> flange the bung openings if you have access to the
> inside.
>
> I laid about 150 inches of weld bead on surplus
> material over the course of a month or so to get
> really comfortable. 60 amps and 15cfh was about right.
>
>
> Bright and shiny clean material is a given and wipe
> the rod with a clean rag and alcohol. Plan start to
> finish welding on one tank in one setting and don't be
> shy with the filler rod. Have your pressure test stuff
> and stainless brush handy, fix the pinholes before the
> material can oxidize, Lincoln electric says you are
> good for a couple of days but I like to strike while
> the torch is hot, so to speak.
>
> good luck and have fun
>
> Roy Szarafinski
> 701 plans
> south Michigan 22deg F and lovely
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Forward Access skin. |
One thing I would highly recommend is making the top forward skin
removable. With the skin removed you have really good access to
everything in the fwd area, not just wiring and instruments, but also to
your rudder peddles, brakes, etc. I have the removal of the top skin
required for my annual conditional inspection, just to zone check the
area and it also permits easier removal of the rudder cable cover I
installed over the rudder cables.
Like Mr. McFarland, I have removed the top skin at least six times to
do some work, inspection. add wiring, etc.
I installed my top skin using #6 riv-nuts, loctite applied near the
shank before installation. I use 6-32 SS screws to hold on the skin. I
know that nut-plates are ideal solution, but I was just too lazy at the
time. So far they have worked great with no problems. Mr. McFarlands
J-nuts is also a solution.
I installed "rubber" tubing on the top skin aft sharp edge. You can
slit the tubing and "glue" it to the skin.
I bought yellow tubing to match my yellow paint job and it can be seen
at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo79.html. NOTE: If you have
light paint, you should paint the "glare" shield area of the top skin
under the canopy. I originally did not, but it was distracting and have
since painted it flat gray. Tubing was procured a the Lowes hardware
store (aircraft parts dept of course).
I also used 1 inch dia water pipe insulation material to cover the aft
top skin leading edge at the bow. It is easy on the hand when boarding
the airplane.
Tony Graziano
601XL/Jab3300 N493TG 179 hrs
----------------------------------------
Re: Forward Skin Access
From: LarryMcFarland (larry@macsmachine.com)
Date: Mon Dec 04 - 5:10 PM
Juan,
You needn't use nut plates for such a panel. J-nuts that work with 6-32
screws can be used with considerable confidence. They are much cheaper
and don't let go. I've got them on my removable forward top skin and
I've had the top off probably a dozen times in two years and 85 hours of
flying my 601. On the leading edge overhanging the panel, I bent a
piece of 1/2-inch aluminum tube and used a Dremel cutter to cut a slit
on the edge and used 4 bent tabs to secure it with the same screws that
hold the forward top skin.
It's a much easier job, as you use almost 90 screws, but very secure and
the screws blend into the rivet heads.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Slats myth busted! |
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "John Gilpin" <vgstol@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Gday, I=92m JG, the fella who started all this kafuffle about removing t
he slats from 701s. It=92s sure stirred up a debate, just as I knew it
would, and I=92ve really enjoyed watching from the side-lines, but now I
think it=92s time to comment.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:of
fice" />
This is understandably a controversial move, since those slats are very
much a defining feature of the 701. So I need to explain the history an
d experience that led to this move ' it certainly wasn=92t just a wild
idea on an impulse.....
I=92ve been fascinated by the Zenair 701 ever since a magazine article i
n1988 entitled =93Freight Elevator to the Stars!=94. The 701 in that te
st report was the prototype, powered by a 50hp Rotax 503! It was a revo
lutionary aircraft, and I was immediately impressed, and ordered a set o
f plans. In 1990 I went to Sun=92Fun and spent most of the week hanging
around the Zenair site and helping to assemble the 701 quick-build kit
that was the feature of their display in those days. It was at that dis
play that I met the Columbians who had already tried their 701=92s witho
ut slats and liked them better that way, and had the slats hung up in th
eir hangars. That image has been intriguing me ever since, and lots of
book study on aerodynamics and real life observation of different aircra
ft made it appear truly inevitable. The responsibilities of a young fam
ily kept me from building a 701 earlier, but in that time I did fly a si
ngle-seat Spectrum Beaver ultralight for 1000 hrs, and modified another
Beaver into a twin-engine machine and flew it for 200hrs. Now I finally
have the time, and a really good home workshop for aircraft constructio
n, in which we=92ve built two Savannahs from kits, and Hans and I have r
ebuilt three crashed 701=92s, two of them with extensive damage, so we k
now every rivet in these machines! (Each of them had slats at the time
of the crashes, but don=92t anymore...) Hans with his 701 and I with my
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office
:smarttags" />Savannah each flew about 200hrs in the last year without s
lats, so we=92re certainly not =91hangar flyers=92. In my case that inc
luded a 5000km (3000mile) round trip to Tasmania, with all the variable
conditions that you encounter on such a trip, and landings into some cha
llenging small strips. Hans did a 2500km (1500mile) trip to North Queen
sland and back in very wild and windy conditions, with a passenger and f
ull load. We both fly =91intensively=92 and are forever trying STOL tac
tics and landing into tight spots ' we do know our aircraft really we
ll! So, that=92s a summary of the history and experience that I use to
guide these experiments with VGs instead of slats.
So we=92re not guessing how the aircraft will fly without slats ' we a
lready know the answer to that! I wouldn=92t have published the result
s if I wasn=92t absolutely certain of the facts, checked and double chec
ked. In that article, =93The True Story of Leading Edge Slats=94, at ww
w.stolspeed.com , I tried to demonstrate all the testing and validation
that had gone into it. I won=92t go over all that again now, but if the
re are questions that I didn=92t cover in that article then bring them o
n and we=92ll look at them.
Another bit of interesting evidence that has come to mind is to watch th
ose aircraft with retractable slats. I=92ve seen a video of one manufac
turer doing very slow turns, with the slats on the inner wing popping in
and out on their own ' no apparent change in handling. Also Carl Ber
trand=92s experiments with his retractable slat wing, when one slat stuc
k ' =93....very little effect, only light aileron and rudder required.
...=94. That just confirms the effect that I would expect from my testi
ng.
You sure would think that the rather bluff leading edge of the wing with
out the slats would be slower in cruise than a =91finer=92 leading edge.
I had thought this as well, and even had already made up new front rib
s with the same profile as the wing with slats on, for the new leading e
dge I thought I was going to need after removing the slats. But when I
did the tests with the slats on and the slots covered over, I got a real
surprise! Cruise speed was the same as with the bluff leading edge! B
ut the stall was much more abrupt, and the centre of lift had moved forw
ard such that I now had a seriously aft CofG. So now I won=92t change t
hat leading edge at all. Those unused ribs still gather dust on a top s
helf in my workshop ' such are the surprises of experimental work.....
....
It=92s well known that a full-rounded leading edge is good for stall cha
racteristics, and this wing that=92s left after you remove the slats fro
m a 701 is just perfect in that regard. I=92ve flown it to the limit ag
ain and again, and with VGs it=92s never ever let me down hard!
Another surprise was the dramatic effect of the VGs. I had read that th
ey reduced the stall speed a bit and improved low speed handling, but I
was amazed at how much difference they made! They allow pretty much the
same STOL performance as the slats did, but give much better cruise eff
iciency, and the landings are easier.
Slats are known as a high-lift device, but it should also be noted that
they are also a high drag device. The high lift only comes in at the ve
ry high angles of attack, but the drag is there at all speeds, and goes
from high at cruise to extremely high at stall aoa. The only time I=92v
e found a use for all that drag is for power-on spot-landings. Nose way
high, hanging on the slats and the prop, 'dragging' the aircraft in bel
ow flying speed, with power controlling the descent. Can't see where yo
u're going with the nose so high, but easy to do a spot landing that way
- just reduce the power and it'll drop down right now, no floating on.
But a real serious down-side of all that drag is getting caught behind
the power curve, or getting caught in an increasing stall condition with
out power. Just imagine all that drag at the highest point of the aircr
aft, not only slowing you down really quickly but also tending to pull t
he nose up ' makes it increasingly difficult to recover...... A few 7
01=92s been bent that way.........
At cruise, all that the slats give is d-r-a-g-g-g..... It takes power t
o overcome that drag. I saved $250 on fuel on a 50hr trip (4 litres/hr
less burn @ $1.30/litre) alongside an identical aircraft with slats, so
now I=92ve probably already saved $1000 over the 200hrs without slats!
There is another benefit of slats (not worth considering), is that in th
e event of a collision with trees or such hard objects they absorb lots
of impact and protect the main structure of the wing...... After repair
ing those crashed machines we had a pile of mangled slats out behind the
workshop, until I sent them away for recycling..... We haven=92t found
any real use either for the good slats we=92ve taken off, except to han
g them up in the roof of the hangar ' makes a good ornament and conver
sation starter......
So the slats myth is well and truly =91busted=92. To me it=92s just a
mazing that someone, including Zenair, hadn=92t worked this out this lon
g ago......
JG
========================
========================
========================
===============
<html><BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair.com<BR><BR
>-- "John Gilpin" <vgstol@bigpond.net.au> wrot
e:<BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>Gday, I=92m JG, the fella who started all this kafuff
le about removing the slats from 701s.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>It=92s sure stirred up a debate, just as I knew it would,
and I=92ve really enjoyed watching from the side-lines, but now I think
it=92s time to comment.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><?xml:namespace prefi
x = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT fa
ce="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>This is understandably a controversial move, since th
ose slats are very much a defining feature of the 701.<SPAN style="mso
-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I need to explain the history and exper
ience that led to this move ' it certainly wasn=92t just a wild idea o
n an impulse.....</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>I=92ve been fascinated by the Zenair 701 ever since a
magazine article in1988 entitled =93Freight Elevator to the Stars!=94.<
SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The 701 in that test repo
rt was the prototype, powered by a 50hp Rotax 503!<SPAN style="mso-spa
cerun: yes"> </SPAN>It was a revolutionary aircraft, and I was imm
ediately impressed, and ordered a set of plans.<SPAN style="mso-spacer
un: yes"> </SPAN>In 1990 I went to Sun=92Fun and spent most of the
week hanging around the Zenair site and helping to assemble the 701 qui
ck-build kit that was the feature of their display in those days.<SPAN s
tyle="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It was at that display that I m
et the Columbians who had already tried their 701=92s without slats and
liked them better that way, and had the slats hung up in their hangars.<
SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That image has been intri
guing me ever since, and lots of book study on aerodynamics and real lif
e observation of different aircraft made it appear truly inevitable.<SPA
N style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The responsibilities of a yo
ung family kept me from building a 701 earlier, but in that time I did f
ly a single-seat Spectrum Beaver ultralight for 1000 hrs, and modified a
nother Beaver into a twin-engine machine and flew it for 200hrs.<SPAN st
yle="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Now I finally have the time, and
a really good home workshop for aircraft construction, in which we=92ve
built two Savannahs from kits, and Hans and I have rebuilt three crashe
d 701=92s, two of them with extensive damage, so we know every rivet in
these machines!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(Each of
them had slats at the time of the crashes, but don=92t anymore...)<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hans with his 701 and I with m
y <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:offic
e:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Savannah</st1:place></st1:City> each
flew about 200hrs in the last year <U>without slats</U>, so we=92re cer
tainly not =91hangar flyers=92.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>In my case that included a 5000km (3000mile) round trip to <st1:S
tate><st1:place>Tasmania</st1:place></st1:State>, with all the variable
conditions that you encounter on such a trip, and landings into some cha
llenging small strips.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Ha
ns did a 2500km (1500mile) trip to <st1:place>North Queensland</st1:plac
e> and back in very wild and windy conditions, with a passenger and full
load.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We both fly =91int
ensively=92 and are forever trying STOL tactics and landing into tight s
pots ' <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>we do know our a
ircraft really well!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So,
that=92s a summary of the history and <U>experience</U> that I use to gu
ide these experiments with VGs instead of slats.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>So we=92re not guessing how the aircraft will fly wit
hout slats ' we already know the answer to that! <SPAN style="mso-sp
acerun: yes"> </SPAN>I wouldn=92t have published the results
if I wasn=92t absolutely certain of the facts, checked and double checke
d.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In that article, =93Th
e True Story of Leading Edge Slats=94, at </FONT><A href="http://www.s
tolspeed.com/"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>www.stolspeed.com
</FONT></A><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> , I tried to d
emonstrate all the testing and validation that had gone into it.<SPAN st
yle="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I won=92t go over all that again
now, but if there are questions that I didn=92t cover in that article t
hen bring them on and we=92ll look at them.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Another bit of interesting evidence that has co
me to mind is to watch those aircraft with retractable slats.<SPAN style
="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I=92ve seen a video of one manufact
urer doing very slow turns, with the slats on the inner wing popping in
and out on their own ' no apparent change in handling.<SPAN style="m
so-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Also Carl Bertrand=92s experiments with
his retractable slat wing, when one slat stuck ' =93....very little ef
fect, only light aileron and rudder required....=94.<SPAN style="mso-s
pacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That just confirms the effect that I would e
xpect from my testing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></
FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>You sure would think that the rather bluff leading ed
ge of the wing without the slats would be slower in cruise than a =91fin
er=92 leading edge.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I had
thought this as well, and even had already made up new front ribs with
the same profile as the wing with slats on, for the new leading edge I t
hought I was going to need after removing the slats.<SPAN style="mso-s
pacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But when I did the tests with the slats on a
nd the slots covered over, I got a real surprise!<SPAN style="mso-spac
erun: yes"> </SPAN>Cruise speed was the same as with the bluff lea
ding edge!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But the stall
was much more abrupt, and the centre of lift had moved forward such that
I now had a seriously aft CofG.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>So now I won=92t change that leading edge at all.<SPAN style="
mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Those unused ribs still gather dust on
a top shelf in my workshop ' such are the surprises of experimental wo
rk.........</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>It=92s well known that a full-rounded leading edge is
good for stall characteristics, and this wing that=92s left after you r
emove the slats from a 701 is just perfect in that regard.<SPAN style=
"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I=92ve flown it to the limit again and
again, and with VGs it=92s never ever let me down hard!</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face="Times N
ew Roman" size=3>Another surprise was the dramatic effect of the VGs.<
SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I had read that they redu
ced the stall speed a bit and improved low speed handling, but I was ama
zed at how much difference they made!<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&
nbsp; </SPAN>They allow pretty much the same STOL performance as the sla
ts did, but give much better cruise efficiency, and the landings are eas
ier.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Ti
mes New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Slats are known as a high-lift device, but it s
hould also be noted that they are also a high <U>drag</U> device.<SPAN s
tyle="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The high lift only comes in at
the very high angles of attack, but the drag is there at all speeds, and
goes from high at cruise to <U>extremely high</U> at stall aoa.<SPAN st
yle="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-WEIG
HT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">The only time I=92
ve found a use for all that drag is for power-on spot-landings. No
se way high, hanging on the slats and the prop, 'dragging' the airc
raft in below flying speed, with power controlling the descent
. Can't see where you're going with the nose so high, but easy to
do a spot landing that way - just reduce the power and it'll drop down r
ight now, no floating on.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN
>But a real serious down-side of all that drag is getting caught behind
the power curve, or getting caught in an increasing stall condition with
out power.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Just imagine a
ll that drag at the highest point of the aircraft, not only slowing you
down really quickly but also tending to pull the nose up ' makes it in
creasingly difficult to recover......<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&
nbsp; </SPAN>A few 701=92s been bent that way.........<SPAN style="mso
-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></STRONG></FONT></FONT><
/P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><o:p><FO
NT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></STRONG>
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT si
ze=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">At cruise, all that the slats give
is d-r-a-g-g-g.....<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It t
akes power to overcome that drag.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> 
; </SPAN>I saved $250 on fuel on a 50hr trip (4 litres/hr less burn @ $1
.30/litre) alongside an identical aircraft with slats, so now I=92ve pro
bably already saved $1000 over the 200hrs without slats!<SPAN style="m
so-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></STRONG
></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><o:p><FO
NT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></STRONG>
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT si
ze=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">There is another benefit of slats
(not worth considering), is that in the event of a collision with trees
or such hard objects they absorb lots of impact and protect the main str
ucture of the wing......<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>
After repairing those crashed machines we had a pile of mangled slats ou
t behind the workshop, until I sent them away for recycling.....<SPAN st
yle="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We haven=92t found any real use
either for the good slats we=92ve taken off, except to hang them up in t
he roof of the hangar ' makes a good ornament and conversation starter
......<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></STRONG></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><o:p><FO
NT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></STRONG>
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT si
ze=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">So the slats myth is well and trul
y =91busted=92.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN sty
le="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>To me it=92s just amazing th
at someone, including Zenair, hadn=92t worked this out this long ago....
..</FONT></FONT></SPAN></STRONG></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT fa
ce="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT></SPAN></STRONG> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><FONT fa
ce="Times New Roman" size=3>JG</FONT></SPAN></STRONG></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=
"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"></SPAN><
/STRONG> </P></FONT></DIV><PRE><B><FONT face="courier new,courier
" color=#000000 size=2>
========================
===========
roelectric.com</A>
com/">www.buildersbooks.com</A>
kitlog.com</A>
homebuilthelp.com</A>
www.matronics.com/contribution</A>
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===========
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List</A>
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<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
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Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Pilot Test Game |
Bob,
Sorry for not answering sooner. Been out hunting and visiting my brother in
Fla. As for the Article on my fix for making the installation of the main
gear legs, I had Gary Boothe from Calif. send it to you. I didn't send it
myself. I haven't mastered copying actual pages and then sending them out as
a file. Gary was kind enough to do that for me. He sent them to you and
several other folks at my request. If I remember correctly is was Issue # 96
of the Zenair Newsletter back in 1996. Please contact Gary at
gboothe@calply.com I'm sure he will be glad to send it to you again - you
can mention that I suggested you contact him. The process I used was simply
attaching some nutplates ( which line up with the holes in the steel gear
fittings ) to aluminun strips ( with flush 3/32" rivets ) and then riveting
the strips with a couple of flush rivets to the vertical landing gear
supports. This has come in handy while modifying the main gear and replacing
the bungees.
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Miller" <tutuzulu@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 9:20 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Pilot Test Game
>
> Here's a crazy-making game to sharpen your situational awareness while
> stuck in the shop.
>
> "It is said"... that Air Force pilots can keep the game going for two
> minutes, but 18 seconds is quite respectable.
>
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~pontipak/redsquare.html
>
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> --
> Bob Miller
> 601HD N722Z
> Charlottesville, Virginia
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | More flight testing |
Gents,
The weather here has been so amazing that I can't stay out of the cockpit.
I put 3 hours on the plane Wed, 4 Thurs, and 4 today. The engine is beginning
to loosen up a bit, and cruise numbers are coming up a little. I spent a
good amount of time calibrating my airspeed indicator off of the GPS. Here was
today's test:
601 HDS taildragger / 2700cc Corvair / Warp Drive set at 9.5 deg
T/O weight - 1100 lbs
Altimeter - 2992
OAT - 70 deg
Altitude - 1000 over the Pacific
2900 RPM
24" MAP
122 mph
I think that when the engine gets fully worn in, I might get a little more
speed - maybe 125. I don't think I will break 130 mph cruise without considerable
efforts in cleaning up the aerodynamics of the plane. I have the big
spring gear hanging out there, and big 600 x 6 tires without wheel pants. I think
125 mph will have to do!
R/
Brandon
Oceanside, Ca.
22 hours and counting... fast...
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