---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/08/06: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:25 AM - Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle) 2. 05:40 AM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (NYTerminat@aol.com) 3. 06:25 AM - Re: Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors (Craig Payne) 4. 06:30 AM - Re: Welding fuel tanksWelding fuel tanks (Peter Sonders) 5. 06:37 AM - Re: Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive (Steve Hulland) 6. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 7. 07:44 AM - Re: vg's (Tebenkof@aol.com) 8. 08:40 AM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (Bill Steer) 9. 08:57 AM - Forward Top Skin-601HD (Lumkes, John H) 10. 09:31 AM - Re: vg's (Joe and Joan) 11. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Auxillary fuel pump (Juan Vega) 12. 09:41 AM - Re: Do instruments need shock mounting? (Ron Lalonde) 13. 09:48 AM - travel stop and tow bar ring (LarryMcFarland) 14. 10:10 AM - Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Eddie G.) 15. 10:40 AM - Re: Forward Top Skin-601HD (ALAN BEYER) 16. 10:50 AM - Re: vg's (Josh Olson) 17. 11:37 AM - Interesting/Funny Mistake on the Part of the FAA (Gig Giacona) 18. 11:40 AM - Re: travel stop and tow bar ring (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 19. 12:39 PM - Nose gear strut 601 (john butterfield) 20. 12:39 PM - Re: Forward Top Skin-601HD (LarryMcFarland) 21. 12:41 PM - Re: vg's (Tebenkof@aol.com) 22. 12:55 PM - Slats myth busted! (John Gilpin) 23. 12:55 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (george may) 24. 12:55 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Carlos Sa) 25. 01:20 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (NYTerminat@aol.com) 26. 01:21 PM - Big mistake (Neitzel) 27. 01:24 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Eddie G.) 28. 01:35 PM - Insturment shock mounts (Mark Sherman) 29. 01:43 PM - Re:582,EIS,17volts (Zed Smith) 30. 01:55 PM - Re: Welding fuel tanks (roy vickski) 31. 02:03 PM - Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? (Noel Loveys) 32. 02:10 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (Charles Wacker) 33. 02:36 PM - Re: Big mistake (Dave G.) 34. 02:36 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (Gig Giacona) 35. 02:40 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (LarryMcFarland) 36. 03:23 PM - Re: Nose gear strut 601 (David Downey) 37. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: Welding fuel tanks (Wade Jones) 38. 04:34 PM - Re: Forward Access skin. (T. Graziano) 39. 04:51 PM - Re: Slats myth busted! (n801bh@netzero.com) 40. 05:25 PM - Re: Pilot Test Game (Jim Hoak) 41. 10:52 PM - More flight testing (Brandon Tucker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:41 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors Dear Listers, I would like to thank everyone that made a Contribution in support of the Lists this year! It was really nice to hear all great comments people had regarding the Lists! As I have said many times before, running these Lists is a labor of love. Your generosity during the List Fund Raiser only underscores the great sentiments people have made regarding the Lists. If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser please feel free to do so. The nice List gifts will be available on the site for just a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution and get your great gift. Once again, the URL for the Contribution web site is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises ( http://www.kitlog.com ), Jon Croke of Homebuilt HELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Paul, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated! And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2006 List of Contributors current as of 12/7/06! Have a look at this list of names as these are the people that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you enough for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser! THANK YOU! http://www.matronics.com/loc/2006.html I will be shipping out all of the gifts in the next few weeks and hope to have everything out by the end of the month. In most cases, gifts will be shipped via US Postal Service. Kitlog Pro serial numbers should go out via email this weekend. Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:35 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? In a message dated 12/7/2006 11:56:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 4rcsimmons@comcast.net writes: Dear List, The shock mounting for the gauges is new to me but makes sense. Can some one send me a pictorial example of how this is acomplised! Are certified aircraft done this way? I think this is a gooe question so do not ??????? Happy days there mates! Aircraft Spruce has different types of mounts, I used the 1" square Lord type. Used the Zenith supplied panel for the backer panel to mount the shoc k mounts, and used a two piece panel over it, one for the gauges and one for my avionics. Cut out the Zenith panel to allow the front panel and instruments to slide into. 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Monel mounting plate. Base holes .141" dia. for 6-32 screws. Center hole .166" dia. for 8-32 screw. N ew surplus item - like new mfg. _View more details_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/shockmounts.php) 100PL-6 IN STRUMENT SHOCK MOUNT 100PL-6 $4.50 (http://aircraftspruce.com/neworderform.php?cmd=add&p=100PL-6&q=1) ____________________________________ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/shockmounts3.php) _SHOCK MOUNT - ROUND MOUNT_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/shockmounts3.php) As used in Cessna aircraft. Overall length 1-1/4". Rubber molded on 8-32 threaded projections. 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When fully inserted a... _View more details_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/instnuts.php) A8944-632-493 INST MOUNTING NUT MS33737-16C $0.78 (http://aircraftspruce.com/neworderform.php?cmd=add&p=A8944-632-493&q =1) ____________________________________ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/clampmounts.php) _INSTRUMENT CLAMP MOUNTS - SHORT BALL CLAMP_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/clampmounts.php) Use these clamps and holders to add essential instruments to your aircraft. Very versatile and durable gadgets. 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Very versatile and durable gadgets. _View more details_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/clampmounts1.php) 10-01433 LONG BALL INSTRU CLAMP MOUNT $38.70 (http://aircraftspruce.com/neworderform.php?cmd=add&p=10-01433&q=1) ____________________________________ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eznuts.php) _=9CEZ NUTS=9D INSTRUMENT MOUNTING SYSTEM by SPT_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eznuts.php) Take the frustration out of mounting aircraft instruments with the use of Superior Panel Technology=99s new EZ Nuts. The EZ Nut bezel goes arou nd the instrument body and is held in place with adhesive tape. _View more details_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eznuts.php) 11-01830 EZ NUTS 3-1/8 $9.95 (http://aircraftspruce.com/neworderform.php?cmd=add&p=11-01830&q=1) 11-01831 EZ NUT 2-1/4 $9.95 (http://aircraftspruce.com/neworderform.php?cmd=add&p=11-01831&q=1) ____________________________________ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mountingplate.php) _MOUNTING PLATE FOR THE 3 ATI INSTRUMENT_ (http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mountingplate.php) Quick fix for a hard to cut out opening. Plate is .500 wider than instrument. 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Prices are subject to change without notice. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:22 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors Matt, Big thanks for hosting all the lists. If you send me my Home-built Help DVD via US mail please send it to: Craig Payne P.O. Box 982617 Park City, UT 84098 Also, I would still love to host the MGL Stratomaster list on Matronics instead of Yahoo. Their system is fairly unreliable and their support unresponsive. I guess you get what you pay for. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:12 AM PST US From: "Peter Sonders" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Welding fuel tanksWelding fuel tanks ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:39 AM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive Do not really like to talk politics, etc. on this forum - but! I have visited more than eighty countries around the world during my 62 (today) years. I have found that most of the average people really like folks from this country - at least those who are working and trying to have a better life. Many governments do not - because they see how shitty their system is compared to ours. Even if their system does provide for the average person very well. Most well to do folks in business also enjoy working with people from this country and our fairly open business environment. A great number are very jealous for one reason or another. Another great number are so uneducated that they only listen to religious or political bull-shit that builds hatred and rage. None of them have immigration problems anything like ours because most educated and intelligent folks know a good thing when they see it and try to go there. Some folks may think talking religion and politics is a waste of time, but it is not. Politics and religion are the root of many wars, etc. Not talking about and doing something (vote, etc) about them leads to really shitty living conditions for the average man. Most important thing to remember is: Freedom is and never will be cheap or for the faint of heart. The freedom to talk about anything at any time is but one important aspect of freedom. If you do not like talking about them on this or any forum, tough! The folks in Germany did not talk about them very much during the 1920's & 30's - look what they got!! Just remember to put in: Do Not Archive -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:04 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: unbelievable! Do Not Archive Happy Birthday In a message dated 12/8/2006 9:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, marinegunner@gmail.com writes: Do not really like to talk politics, etc. on this forum - but! I have visited more than eighty countries around the world during my 62 (today) years. I have found that most of the average people really like folks from this country - at least those who are working and trying to have a better life. Many governments do not - because they see how shitty their system is compared to ours. Even if their system does provide for the average person very well. Most well to do folks in business also enjoy working with people from this country and our fairly open business environment. A great number are very jealous for one reason or another. Another great number are so uneducated that they only listen to religious or political bull-shit that builds hatred and rage. None of them have immigration problems anything like ours because most educated and intelligent folks know a good thing when they see it and try to go there. Some folks may think talking religion and politics is a waste of time, but it is not. Politics and religion are the root of many wars, etc. Not talking about and doing something (vote, etc) about them leads to really shitty living conditions for the average man. Most important thing to remember is: Freedom is and never will be cheap or for the faint of heart. The freedom to talk about anything at any time is but one important aspect of freedom. If you do not like talking about them on this or any forum, tough! The folks in Germany did not talk about them very much during the 1920's & 30's - look what they got!! Just remember to put in: Do Not Archive -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:08 AM PST US From: Tebenkof@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Joe, I have been off the list for a time. Is this VGs instead of slats an idea that has been talked about some? Is there some reason to think VGs may be superior? Your numbers are eagerly awaited. I have considered using VGs in additon to the slats on my 701 (not yet flying), but had not considered eliminating the slats. Can you give me more info on this idea? Jim Greenough ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:37 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? That's true, but the directions that came with my PAI-700 vertical card compass explicitly said the instrument should be shock mounted. I'm attaching a shock-mounted panel in front of the original structural panel. To do that, I've reinforced the structural panel with the usual "L" angle around the top and across the bottom so it ends up wuth a U-shaped channel behind the panel. The top angle can be shaped with a metal stretcher. I also have a vertical reinforcing "L" angle near the center. Then the center of the structural panel is cut out. The new front panel is then attached to this framework with vibration mounts I got from Reid Tool. Some folks have used multiple front panels so they can easily get access to the back of the panel. The removable top skin gives the same or better access, of course. Note that the reinforcing "L" angle costs about an inch of real estate around the edge of the original panel. I don't have any pictures of it, but can take some if anybody is interested. Hope this helps. Bill I've always heard that you should shock mount your gyros and the rest didn't matter. It seems to make sense, but there are a lot of panels that mount everything solid and don't seem to have any problems. The shock mounting for the gauges is new to me but makes sense. Can some one send me a pictorial example of how this is acomplised! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:29 AM PST US From: "Lumkes, John H" Subject: Zenith-List: Forward Top Skin-601HD Hello, With the discussion about accessing the instrument panel, it reminded me of a related question that I could not locate the answer to in the archives. I am still working on a 601HD (finishing firewall assembly) and planning on using the side opening canopy with the latching mechanism modification. I would also like to have the forward top skin removable for access to the instrument panel, but am concerned that with the side opening canopy the top skin is more structurally necessary (no side rails like with the forward hinge) and it might not be a good idea to use rivnuts in place of the rivets. Question 1: Are rivnuts okay in this model and canopy style? Question 2: If not, are there examples of adding an access hatch on the top skin between the tank and instrument panel? Thanks, John ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:50 AM PST US From: "Joe and Joan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Jim, I got my ideas and vg's from the www.stolspeed.com site located in Australia. They have good numbers and what they say has certainly worked for me so far. Bad winds here so I hav'nt finised testing, but sure looks great so far. do not archive Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tebenkof@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Joe, I have been off the list for a time. Is this VGs instead of slats an idea that has been talked about some? Is there some reason to think VGs may be superior? Your numbers are eagerly awaited. I have considered using VGs in additon to the slats on my 701 (not yet flying), but had not considered eliminating the slats. Can you give me more info on this idea? Jim Greenough ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:05 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Auxillary fuel pump to all: I have been giving the question of accurate fuel burn some thought. Fuel senders have allways been and are notorious for not giving accurate readings. And some are concerned about tanks draining without pilots noticing (highly unlikely). One solution I have found is to place a fuel flow sensor between engine driven fuel pump and carborator. It is a really easy task, just cut the hose between the two and place the sensor. Fire coat it allong with the rest of the furel line, then run the wires to the EIS. Taadaa! Placing a fuel flow sensor close to the carb allows me to measure fuel rate/hour and fuel remaing by telling the computer how many gallons in the tanks and or using simple math to tell me whats left. Down side is that for the over paranoid, it won't tell you if there is a leak. Only way to get around that is to keep the fuel guage in place and if they look lower than what the fuel flow says there should be, you then have detected the lease. ex: just took off for one hour with full 30 gallons. Fuel flow meter says I am burning 5.5/hour. Tank guages say I now have 1/2 tanks? something is up. What is nice about a fuel flow sensor is that we all know tank guages are not that accurate, so now you have a second source of info coming in and can cross refernce. Good luck. -----Original Message----- >From: David X >Sent: Dec 7, 2006 8:30 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Auxillary fuel pump > > > >4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net wrote: >> that presurizing the gascolator may not tbe the best of ideas > > >Agreed. Better to place the aux fuel pump after the sump. > >Also not a good idea to feed all fuel through the aux pump, even if it has a pass-thru capability ... because they have been known to malfunction. > >The output from the fuel selector should go to the sump, then the line splits after the sump to go to the inputs of the two fuel pumps. It's unavoidable to rejoin the outputs of the two pumps prior to feeding the carb(s). > >-------- >Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79981#79981 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:11 AM PST US From: "Ron Lalonde" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? For what it is worth, it is a cheap fix. I put the shock mounts on the panel mount of my VP2 and it works great. Will do the same on this 601XL project. Dont really know if it was necessary but I am sure it did not hurt. Better safe than sorry, especially considering the cost of even the basic a/c instruments. Ron Lalonde 601XL Debert, NS Canada >I've always heard that you should shock mount your gyros and the rest >didn't matter. It seems to make sense, but there are a lot of panels that >mount everything solid and don't seem to have any problems. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rich > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 8:53 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do instruments need shock mounting? > > > Dear List, > > The shock mounting for the gauges is new to me but makes sense. > > > Can some one send me a pictorial example of how this is acomplised! > > > Are certified aircraft done this way? > > > I think this is a gooe question so do not ??????? > > > Happy days there mates! > > _________________________________________________________________ Download now! Visit http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/ to enter and see how cool it is to get Messenger with you on your cell phone. http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:41 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: travel stop and tow bar ring Hi guys, I've finally put the mill in gear and have been finishing the travel stops and tow bar rings for the 2-inch front gear strut. Several have been mailed to catch up with those that requested them some weeks or months ago. I should have half a dozen extra when the current mailings are complete. If there is anyone else that I've forgotten or needs one, please let me know off line. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-and-stear-link.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-&-ground-handli.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezclosefrtrt.gif Thanks, Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? From: "Eddie G." Greetings, Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can recommend on VHF antenna basics, selecting and installating antennas on metal-frame aircrafts, avionics, connectors, wiring, etc.? Thanx...Eddie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p179#80179 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:31 AM PST US From: ALAN BEYER Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Forward Top Skin-601HD John,=0A=0AOn Dec. 4th I sent a post on my inspection covers on my HDS with pics. If you can't find it I can send you the pics.=0A=0AAL from Oshkosh =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "Lumkes, John H" =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, December 8, 2006 10:56:36 AM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: Forward Top Skin-601HD=0A=0A =0AHello,=0A =0AWith the discussion about accessing the instrument panel, i t reminded me of a related question that I could not locate the answer to in the archives. I am still working on a 601HD (finishing firewall assembly ) and planning on using the side opening canopy with the latching mechanism modification. I would also like to have the forward top skin removable for access to the instrument panel, but am concerned that with the side openin g canopy the top skin is more structurally necessary (no side rails like wi th the forward hinge) and it might not be a good idea to use rivnuts in pla ce of the rivets.=0AQuestion 1: Are rivnuts okay in this model and canopy s tyle?=0AQuestion 2: If not, are there examples of adding an access hatch on the top skin between the tank and instrument panel?=0A =0AThanks,=0AJohn === ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:03 AM PST US From: Josh Olson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vg's Has anyone ever put VGs on the 601xl? How do those numbers compare? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: "Joe and Joan" Sent: 12/8/06 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Jim, I got my ideas and vg's from the www.stolspeed.com site located in Australia. They have good numbers and what they say has certainly worked for me so far. Bad winds here so I hav'nt finised testing, but sure looks great so far. do not archive Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tebenkof@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Joe, I have been off the list for a time. Is this VGs instead of slats an idea that has been talked about some? Is there some reason to think VGs may be superior? Your numbers are eagerly awaited. I have considered using VGs in additon to the slats on my 701 (not yet flying), but had not considered eliminating the slats. Can you give me more info on this idea? Jim Greenough ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Interesting/Funny Mistake on the Part of the FAA From: "Gig Giacona" I was looking for an address of a 601 builder today and searched the faa database. Check out the engine type on the second group of AMD built 601XLs -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p200#80200 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:55 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: travel stop and tow bar ring Great looking plane. I hope to fly mine next spring. The ring for the nose gear is a great idea. How much do you want for one? Let me know. I will send you a check. Thanks Dave Harms Waterloo, Iowa videoflyer@aol.com 601XL/Corvair ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:16 PM PST US From: john butterfield Subject: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601 hi list, i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am concerned about the stiffness of the up and down movement. it seems really tight, but that is without an engine on or even the engine mount. should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few inches. i assume that on landing, it will work properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i would rather take it off now and open up the bearings a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it should be thanks in advance john butterfield 601XL corvair torrance, ca Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:16 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Forward Top Skin-601HD John, I've looked at the side opening canopy on a HD and consider the removable forward top skin not to be different from the problems of the forward opening canopy on the XL. The number of fasteners needed for the skin total near 90 and one can use j-nuts rather than rivnuts or plate nuts. The sum total of the fasteners make a rather solid assembly regardless. The difference would be that a piece each side riveted to the longerons would have to be bent to accept the removable skin for side fastening around the perimeter of the access. Better that the firewall and instrument panel be part of the J-nut assembly for access. There are lots of examples of other smaller access panels that can be done, but real access is the challenge. I don't particularly like rivnuts as they eventually spin and make a difficult time of getting a screw out and they are long for the location when a header tank is involved. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Lumkes, John H wrote: > Hello, > > With the discussion about accessing the instrument panel, it reminded > me of a related question that I could not locate the answer to in the > archives. I am still working on a 601HD (finishing firewall assembly) > and planning on using the side opening canopy with the latching > mechanism modification. I would also like to have the forward top skin > removable for access to the instrument panel, but am concerned that > with the side opening canopy the top skin is more structurally > necessary (no side rails like with the forward hinge) and it might not > be a good idea to use rivnuts in place of the rivets. > Question 1: Are rivnuts okay in this model and canopy style? > Question 2: If not, are there examples of adding an access hatch on > the top skin between the tank and instrument panel? > > Thanks, > John > * > > * ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:21 PM PST US From: Tebenkof@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Joe, thanks for the VG reference. It looks quite interesting. Jim do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:02 PM PST US From: "John Gilpin" Subject: Zenith-List: Slats myth busted! Gday, I'm JG, the fella who started all this kafuffle about removing the slats from 701s. It's sure stirred up a debate, just as I knew it would, and I've really enjoyed watching from the side-lines, but now I think it's time to comment. This is understandably a controversial move, since those slats are very much a defining feature of the 701. So I need to explain the history and experience that led to this move - it certainly wasn't just a wild idea on an impulse..... I've been fascinated by the Zenair 701 ever since a magazine article in1988 entitled "Freight Elevator to the Stars!". The 701 in that test report was the prototype, powered by a 50hp Rotax 503! It was a revolutionary aircraft, and I was immediately impressed, and ordered a set of plans. In 1990 I went to Sun'Fun and spent most of the week hanging around the Zenair site and helping to assemble the 701 quick-build kit that was the feature of their display in those days. It was at that display that I met the Columbians who had already tried their 701's without slats and liked them better that way, and had the slats hung up in their hangars. That image has been intriguing me ever since, and lots of book study on aerodynamics and real life observation of different aircraft made it appear truly inevitable. The responsibilities of a young family kept me from building a 701 earlier, but in that time I did fly a single-seat Spectrum Beaver ultralight for 1000 hrs, and modified another Beaver into a twin-engine machine and flew it for 200hrs. Now I finally have the time, and a really good home workshop for aircraft construction, in which we've built two Savannahs from kits, and Hans and I have rebuilt three crashed 701's, two of them with extensive damage, so we know every rivet in these machines! (Each of them had slats at the time of the crashes, but don't anymore...) Hans with his 701 and I with my Savannah each flew about 200hrs in the last year without slats, so we're certainly not 'hangar flyers'. In my case that included a 5000km (3000mile) round trip to Tasmania, with all the variable conditions that you encounter on such a trip, and landings into some challenging small strips. Hans did a 2500km (1500mile) trip to North Queensland and back in very wild and windy conditions, with a passenger and full load. We both fly 'intensively' and are forever trying STOL tactics and landing into tight spots - we do know our aircraft really well! So, that's a summary of the history and experience that I use to guide these experiments with VGs instead of slats. So we're not guessing how the aircraft will fly without slats - we already know the answer to that! I wouldn't have published the results if I wasn't absolutely certain of the facts, checked and double checked. In that article, "The True Story of Leading Edge Slats", at www.stolspeed.com , I tried to demonstrate all the testing and validation that had gone into it. I won't go over all that again now, but if there are questions that I didn't cover in that article then bring them on and we'll look at them. Another bit of interesting evidence that has come to mind is to watch those aircraft with retractable slats. I've seen a video of one manufacturer doing very slow turns, with the slats on the inner wing popping in and out on their own - no apparent change in handling. Also Carl Bertrand's experiments with his retractable slat wing, when one slat stuck - "....very little effect, only light aileron and rudder required....". That just confirms the effect that I would expect from my testing. You sure would think that the rather bluff leading edge of the wing without the slats would be slower in cruise than a 'finer' leading edge. I had thought this as well, and even had already made up new front ribs with the same profile as the wing with slats on, for the new leading edge I thought I was going to need after removing the slats. But when I did the tests with the slats on and the slots covered over, I got a real surprise! Cruise speed was the same as with the bluff leading edge! But the stall was much more abrupt, and the centre of lift had moved forward such that I now had a seriously aft CofG. So now I won't change that leading edge at all. Those unused ribs still gather dust on a top shelf in my workshop - such are the surprises of experimental work......... It's well known that a full-rounded leading edge is good for stall characteristics, and this wing that's left after you remove the slats from a 701 is just perfect in that regard. I've flown it to the limit again and again, and with VGs it's never ever let me down hard! Another surprise was the dramatic effect of the VGs. I had read that they reduced the stall speed a bit and improved low speed handling, but I was amazed at how much difference they made! They allow pretty much the same STOL performance as the slats did, but give much better cruise efficiency, and the landings are easier. Slats are known as a high-lift device, but it should also be noted that they are also a high drag device. The high lift only comes in at the very high angles of attack, but the drag is there at all speeds, and goes from high at cruise to extremely high at stall aoa. The only time I've found a use for all that drag is for power-on spot-landings. Nose way high, hanging on the slats and the prop, 'dragging' the aircraft in below flying speed, with power controlling the descent. Can't see where you're going with the nose so high, but easy to do a spot landing that way - just reduce the power and it'll drop down right now, no floating on. But a real serious down-side of all that drag is getting caught behind the power curve, or getting caught in an increasing stall condition without power. Just imagine all that drag at the highest point of the aircraft, not only slowing you down really quickly but also tending to pull the nose up - makes it increasingly difficult to recover...... A few 701's been bent that way......... At cruise, all that the slats give is d-r-a-g-g-g..... It takes power to overcome that drag. I saved $250 on fuel on a 50hr trip (4 litres/hr less burn @ $1.30/litre) alongside an identical aircraft with slats, so now I've probably already saved $1000 over the 200hrs without slats! There is another benefit of slats (not worth considering), is that in the event of a collision with trees or such hard objects they absorb lots of impact and protect the main structure of the wing...... After repairing those crashed machines we had a pile of mangled slats out behind the workshop, until I sent them away for recycling..... We haven't found any real use either for the good slats we've taken off, except to hang them up in the roof of the hangar - makes a good ornament and conversation starter...... So the slats myth is well and truly 'busted'. To me it's just amazing that someone, including Zenair, hadn't worked this out this long ago...... JG ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:04 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601 John-- It should be very stiff at the point you are at. Once the engine is in place you will notice more elasticity. Keep building--- George May 601XL 912s----19 hours- >From: john butterfield >To: Zenith-List Digest Server >Subject: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601 >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:35:35 -0800 (PST) > > > >hi list, >i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am >concerned about the stiffness of the up and down >movement. > >it seems really tight, but that is without an engine >on or even the engine mount. > >should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing >down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would >have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few >inches. i assume that on landing, it will work >properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i >would rather take it off now and open up the bearings >a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it >should be > >thanks in advance >john butterfield >601XL corvair >torrance, ca > > >Have a burning question? >Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version.Join now. http://ideas.live.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:08 PM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? I suggest a visit to www.aeroelectric.com And, of course, there is the aeroelectric list @ Matronics. Just follow the link to the Matronics Navigator page, in the trailer below... Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada On 08/12/06, Eddie G. wrote: > > > Greetings, > > Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can recommend on > VHF antenna basics, selecting and installating antennas on metal-frame > aircrafts, avionics, connectors, wiring, etc.? > > Thanx...Eddie > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:14 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? Eddy, I got the book from _www.aeroelectric.com_ (http://www.aeroelectric.com) . Well worth the investment. Bob Spudis N701ZX CH701/912S In a message dated 12/8/2006 1:11:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, silentlight@verizon.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eddie G." Greetings, Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can recommend on VHF antenna basics, selecting and installating antennas on metal-frame aircrafts, avionics, connectors, wiring, etc.? Thanx...Eddie ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:48 PM PST US From: "Neitzel" Subject: Zenith-List: Big mistake Greetings all, Thought I would pass this along so someone else does not make the same mistake that I did. When I finished my wings I needed to get them out of a bulging basement so transported them to my hangar. I had a bunch of foam rubber and thought that would be a good way to keep them apart. Put the first wing on foam then scattered some more foam blocks on top and carefully set the second wing on top. I then covered with a tarp and put some large pieces of cardboard on top of that to avoid hangar rash. When I retrieved the left wing to bring back to my basement work shop to fit flaperon and slat, I discovered that the rubber foam stuck to the wing in several places. Even a trace of corrosion in a couple of places. I have already experimented with polish to make sure these spots will come out and looks like no problem. They were only in the hangar for four months can only imagine what they would have looked like if it had been longer. My hangar is nice and dry but I guess foam rubber sucks moisture from the air. Bottom line I don't recommend rubber foam for long term storage/seperation of parts. Also was wondering if there are any 582 guru's out there. Got a high volt indication on the EIS (17+ volts). Checked tightness of bonding straps and all other related wiring and found none loose. It has 150 hours on it and the battery is only 18 months old. Any thoughts? Any easy way to check the regulator? Thanks ahead of time. Dick Neitzel Sayner, WI 701 Jabiru 2200 N962WB ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? From: "Eddie G." Carlos, thanx for pointing to the Aeroelectric list! I hadn't noticed it before!!!! Eddie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p232#80232 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:30 PM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Zenith-List: Insturment shock mounts Here is a couple of pictures of the insturment shock mounts I used from Air craft Spruce. Three on top and four on the bottom. The sub panel sticks o ut about 3/8" from the base panel.=0A=0AThe other picture is the fuse block and common ground block I have mounted on the inside of the glove box door .=0A=0AMark S.=0A701/912S=0A=0A=0A =0A_____________________________________ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:57 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re:582,EIS,17volts You might check first to see if the EIS is accurate. No particular reason to doubt it, but measure a 9-volt battery with your handy digital voltmeter.....pull the EIS voltage-sensing wire loose and try it on the battery. Use a clip lead from battery minus to airframe. If the EIS shows same as voltmeter then you can proceed to regulator, etc. No pun intended, but no charge for this bit of wisdom. Regards, Zed do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE et cetera ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:10 PM PST US From: roy vickski Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welding fuel tanks Wade, I used .040 5052 H32 with 5356 rod and had excellent results, this is what I learned after fabricating 2 "practice" tanks. Trim and form the tank ends after the body of the tank is welded, I got a much nicer fit this way and fit is everything. I relieved the flanged corners of the ends, this made for a no gap fit, don't worry if there is a little hole in each corner. I tacked each joint in the middle then the middle again and again until there was a tack every inch or so. I made tank #3 with the bead and tank #4 without. I have come to find that the technical reason for the bead is weld stress expansion, a eighth in. radius on the end flange helps here also. If you have your senders they can be adjusted and fit while the sides are off and it is much easier to flange the bung openings if you have access to the inside. I laid about 150 inches of weld bead on surplus material over the course of a month or so to get really comfortable. 60 amps and 15cfh was about right. Bright and shiny clean material is a given and wipe the rod with a clean rag and alcohol. Plan start to finish welding on one tank in one setting and don't be shy with the filler rod. Have your pressure test stuff and stainless brush handy, fix the pinholes before the material can oxidize, Lincoln electric says you are good for a couple of days but I like to strike while the torch is hot, so to speak. good luck and have fun Roy Szarafinski 701 plans south Michigan 22deg F and lovely ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:57 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? Jeppsen publishes a book on Instruments and avionics for A&P That should cover all the instruments and avionics. Jeppsen is usually kept up to date. For all you really want to know and were afraid to ask about VHF communications I can recommend the ARRL amateur radio hand book. That book around the size of AC43 with even more pages will instruct you on how your radios work and how to tune your antennas. Get the ARRL book first. After reading the section on Antennas the Jeppsen will make a lot more sense. Noel Canadian Advanced Amateur Radio Operator Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Intern Canadian Rec_PP > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eddie G. > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:39 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Avionics book or videos - any recommendation? > > > > > Greetings, > > Is there one or two good books or videos that you folks can > recommend on VHF antenna basics, selecting and installating > antennas on metal-frame aircrafts, avionics, connectors, wiring, etc.? > > Thanx...Eddie > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p179#80179 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:51 PM PST US From: "Charles Wacker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601 I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down movement is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are also very stiff. Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I have thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think that my be a bad idea. Thoughts. Chuck Wacker N601CW Quick Build >From: john butterfield >To: Zenith-List Digest Server >Subject: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601 >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:35:35 -0800 (PST) > > > >hi list, >i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am >concerned about the stiffness of the up and down >movement. > >it seems really tight, but that is without an engine >on or even the engine mount. > >should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing >down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would >have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few >inches. i assume that on landing, it will work >properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i >would rather take it off now and open up the bearings >a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it >should be > >thanks in advance >john butterfield >601XL corvair >torrance, ca > > >Have a burning question? >Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. > > _________________________________________________________________ Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:24 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Big mistake I'm no guru but this might be the cause. The standard rectifier for the 582 requires a minimum 1 amp draw, any less and you'll get high voltage spikes. Good luck. ----- Original Message ----- From: Neitzel To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 5:21 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Big mistake Greetings all, Also was wondering if there are any 582 guru's out there. Got a high volt indication on the EIS (17+ volts). Checked tightness of bonding straps and all other related wiring and found none loose. It has 150 hours on it and the battery is only 18 months old. Any thoughts? Any easy way to check the regulator? ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Nose gear strut 601 From: "Gig Giacona" That's strange. I got my engine mount installed and then put a chunk of concret on it that mught weigh 60 or 70 lbs and while the pedals still are stiff i can move them without too much force. Before the concrete I couldn't move them at all. ccwacker(at)HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down movement > is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are also very > stiff. > > Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I have > thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think that my be a > bad idea. > > Thoughts. > > Chuck Wacker > N601CW Quick Build > > > > > From: john butterfield > > To: Zenith-List Digest Server > > Subject: Nose gear strut 601 > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:35:35 -0800 (PST) > > > > > > > > > > hi list, > > i put the rubber band on the nose wheel strut, and am > > concerned about the stiffness of the up and down > > movement. > > > > it seems really tight, but that is without an engine > > on or even the engine mount. > > > > should you be able to depress the bungies by pressing > > down on the firewall? it moves a little, but i would > > have to exert extream pressure to get it to move a few > > inches. i assume that on landing, it will work > > properly, but if it should move fairly easy now, i > > would rather take it off now and open up the bearings > > a little. just don't have a feel on how loose it > > should be > > > > thanks in advance > > john butterfield > > 601XL corvair > > torrance, ca > > > > > > > > Have a burning question? > > Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p249#80249 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:56 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601 Charles, If you don't have nylon bearings, the steering could be expected to be a bit more stiff. With nylon, the steering should not be stiff at all if the plane is rolling. If you don't have nylon, the bearings will soon make their own clearances. With nylon, the wear will be nil. I'd not modify the bearings but for adding nylon to the steering support arms, lower bearing and top bearing. You only need a 1/16-inch clearance in the aluminum if you've got nylon that has a snug sliding fit. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Charles Wacker wrote: > > > I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down > movement is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are > also very stiff. > > Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I > have thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think > that my be a bad idea. > > Thoughts. > > Chuck Wacker > N601CW Quick Build ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:39 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nose gear strut 601 You might want to consider substituting UHMW for Nylon unless the application can get really warm. Charles, If you don't have nylon bearings, the steering could be expected to be a bit more stiff. With nylon, the steering should not be stiff at all if the plane is rolling. If you don't have nylon, the bearings will soon make their own clearances. With nylon, the wear will be nil. I'd not modify the bearings but for adding nylon to the steering support arms, lower bearing and top bearing. You only need a 1/16-inch clearance in the aluminum if you've got nylon that has a snug sliding fit. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Charles Wacker wrote: > > > I was just thinkng about the same thing today. On mine the up down > movement is nill and I have my engine installed. The rudder pedals are > also very stiff. > > Is this normal until there is some flight/taxi time on the bird? I > have thought about opening up the bearings a little but really think > that my be a bad idea. > > Thoughts. > > Chuck Wacker > N601CW Quick Build Dave Downey in SE PA --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:16 PM PST US From: "Wade Jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Welding fuel tanks Thanks Roy sounds like sound advice .I have not worked on the plane for a couple of days due to equipment repair .To the group ,I was real proud of myself today .Last year I bought an old good looking Airco welding machine because it had AC/DC &HF needed for Aluminum welding .After getting it home it would not weld on AC or DC however the HF was working .I found that by hooking this machine to my other machine that does not have HF I was able to weld Aluminum .Now for the good part ,today I determined that one of the diodes was shorted to ground .After reading the schematic for awhile I decided that I could eliminate the diodes and bypass them as they were not needed unless DC welding is required .By doing this the machine works great on AC &HF and that is what it was bought for .I also found some replacement diodes locally for $30.00 each ,which I will replace at a later date and restore my DC welding capabilities .Sorry about the long post but I was proud to find out this could be done ,and may be of help to someone else . Wade Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "roy vickski" Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 3:54 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Welding fuel tanks > > Wade, > I used .040 5052 H32 with 5356 rod and had excellent > results, this is what I learned after fabricating 2 > "practice" tanks. > > Trim and form the tank ends after the body of the tank > is welded, I got a much nicer fit this way and fit is > everything. I relieved the flanged corners of the > ends, this made for a no gap fit, don't worry if there > is a little hole in each corner. I tacked each joint > in the middle then the middle again and again until > there was a tack every inch or so. > > I made tank #3 with the bead and tank #4 without. I > have come to find that the technical reason for the > bead is weld stress expansion, a eighth in. radius on > the end flange helps here also. > > If you have your senders they can be adjusted and fit > while the sides are off and it is much easier to > flange the bung openings if you have access to the > inside. > > I laid about 150 inches of weld bead on surplus > material over the course of a month or so to get > really comfortable. 60 amps and 15cfh was about right. > > > Bright and shiny clean material is a given and wipe > the rod with a clean rag and alcohol. Plan start to > finish welding on one tank in one setting and don't be > shy with the filler rod. Have your pressure test stuff > and stainless brush handy, fix the pinholes before the > material can oxidize, Lincoln electric says you are > good for a couple of days but I like to strike while > the torch is hot, so to speak. > > good luck and have fun > > Roy Szarafinski > 701 plans > south Michigan 22deg F and lovely > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:19 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Forward Access skin. One thing I would highly recommend is making the top forward skin removable. With the skin removed you have really good access to everything in the fwd area, not just wiring and instruments, but also to your rudder peddles, brakes, etc. I have the removal of the top skin required for my annual conditional inspection, just to zone check the area and it also permits easier removal of the rudder cable cover I installed over the rudder cables. Like Mr. McFarland, I have removed the top skin at least six times to do some work, inspection. add wiring, etc. I installed my top skin using #6 riv-nuts, loctite applied near the shank before installation. I use 6-32 SS screws to hold on the skin. I know that nut-plates are ideal solution, but I was just too lazy at the time. So far they have worked great with no problems. Mr. McFarlands J-nuts is also a solution. I installed "rubber" tubing on the top skin aft sharp edge. You can slit the tubing and "glue" it to the skin. I bought yellow tubing to match my yellow paint job and it can be seen at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo79.html. NOTE: If you have light paint, you should paint the "glare" shield area of the top skin under the canopy. I originally did not, but it was distracting and have since painted it flat gray. Tubing was procured a the Lowes hardware store (aircraft parts dept of course). I also used 1 inch dia water pipe insulation material to cover the aft top skin leading edge at the bow. It is easy on the hand when boarding the airplane. Tony Graziano 601XL/Jab3300 N493TG 179 hrs ---------------------------------------- Re: Forward Skin Access From: LarryMcFarland (larry@macsmachine.com) Date: Mon Dec 04 - 5:10 PM Juan, You needn't use nut plates for such a panel. J-nuts that work with 6-32 screws can be used with considerable confidence. They are much cheaper and don't let go. I've got them on my removable forward top skin and I've had the top off probably a dozen times in two years and 85 hours of flying my 601. On the leading edge overhanging the panel, I bent a piece of 1/2-inch aluminum tube and used a Dremel cutter to cut a slit on the edge and used 4 bent tabs to secure it with the same screws that hold the forward top skin. It's a much easier job, as you use almost 90 screws, but very secure and the screws blend into the rivet heads. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:11 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Slats myth busted! Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "John Gilpin" wrote: Gday, I=92m JG, the fella who started all this kafuffle about removing t he slats from 701s. It=92s sure stirred up a debate, just as I knew it would, and I=92ve really enjoyed watching from the side-lines, but now I think it=92s time to comment. This is understandably a controversial move, since those slats are very much a defining feature of the 701. So I need to explain the history an d experience that led to this move ' it certainly wasn=92t just a wild idea on an impulse..... I=92ve been fascinated by the Zenair 701 ever since a magazine article i n1988 entitled =93Freight Elevator to the Stars!=94. The 701 in that te st report was the prototype, powered by a 50hp Rotax 503! It was a revo lutionary aircraft, and I was immediately impressed, and ordered a set o f plans. In 1990 I went to Sun=92Fun and spent most of the week hanging around the Zenair site and helping to assemble the 701 quick-build kit that was the feature of their display in those days. It was at that dis play that I met the Columbians who had already tried their 701=92s witho ut slats and liked them better that way, and had the slats hung up in th eir hangars. That image has been intriguing me ever since, and lots of book study on aerodynamics and real life observation of different aircra ft made it appear truly inevitable. The responsibilities of a young fam ily kept me from building a 701 earlier, but in that time I did fly a si ngle-seat Spectrum Beaver ultralight for 1000 hrs, and modified another Beaver into a twin-engine machine and flew it for 200hrs. Now I finally have the time, and a really good home workshop for aircraft constructio n, in which we=92ve built two Savannahs from kits, and Hans and I have r ebuilt three crashed 701=92s, two of them with extensive damage, so we k now every rivet in these machines! (Each of them had slats at the time of the crashes, but don=92t anymore...) Hans with his 701 and I with my Savannah each flew about 200hrs in the last year without s lats, so we=92re certainly not =91hangar flyers=92. In my case that inc luded a 5000km (3000mile) round trip to Tasmania, with all the variable conditions that you encounter on such a trip, and landings into some cha llenging small strips. Hans did a 2500km (1500mile) trip to North Queen sland and back in very wild and windy conditions, with a passenger and f ull load. We both fly =91intensively=92 and are forever trying STOL tac tics and landing into tight spots ' we do know our aircraft really we ll! So, that=92s a summary of the history and experience that I use to guide these experiments with VGs instead of slats. So we=92re not guessing how the aircraft will fly without slats ' we a lready know the answer to that! I wouldn=92t have published the result s if I wasn=92t absolutely certain of the facts, checked and double chec ked. In that article, =93The True Story of Leading Edge Slats=94, at ww w.stolspeed.com , I tried to demonstrate all the testing and validation that had gone into it. I won=92t go over all that again now, but if the re are questions that I didn=92t cover in that article then bring them o n and we=92ll look at them. Another bit of interesting evidence that has come to mind is to watch th ose aircraft with retractable slats. I=92ve seen a video of one manufac turer doing very slow turns, with the slats on the inner wing popping in and out on their own ' no apparent change in handling. Also Carl Ber trand=92s experiments with his retractable slat wing, when one slat stuc k ' =93....very little effect, only light aileron and rudder required. ...=94. That just confirms the effect that I would expect from my testi ng. You sure would think that the rather bluff leading edge of the wing with out the slats would be slower in cruise than a =91finer=92 leading edge. I had thought this as well, and even had already made up new front rib s with the same profile as the wing with slats on, for the new leading e dge I thought I was going to need after removing the slats. But when I did the tests with the slats on and the slots covered over, I got a real surprise! Cruise speed was the same as with the bluff leading edge! B ut the stall was much more abrupt, and the centre of lift had moved forw ard such that I now had a seriously aft CofG. So now I won=92t change t hat leading edge at all. Those unused ribs still gather dust on a top s helf in my workshop ' such are the surprises of experimental work..... .... It=92s well known that a full-rounded leading edge is good for stall cha racteristics, and this wing that=92s left after you remove the slats fro m a 701 is just perfect in that regard. I=92ve flown it to the limit ag ain and again, and with VGs it=92s never ever let me down hard! Another surprise was the dramatic effect of the VGs. I had read that th ey reduced the stall speed a bit and improved low speed handling, but I was amazed at how much difference they made! They allow pretty much the same STOL performance as the slats did, but give much better cruise eff iciency, and the landings are easier. Slats are known as a high-lift device, but it should also be noted that they are also a high drag device. The high lift only comes in at the ve ry high angles of attack, but the drag is there at all speeds, and goes from high at cruise to extremely high at stall aoa. The only time I=92v e found a use for all that drag is for power-on spot-landings. Nose way high, hanging on the slats and the prop, 'dragging' the aircraft in bel ow flying speed, with power controlling the descent. Can't see where yo u're going with the nose so high, but easy to do a spot landing that way - just reduce the power and it'll drop down right now, no floating on. But a real serious down-side of all that drag is getting caught behind the power curve, or getting caught in an increasing stall condition with out power. Just imagine all that drag at the highest point of the aircr aft, not only slowing you down really quickly but also tending to pull t he nose up ' makes it increasingly difficult to recover...... A few 7 01=92s been bent that way......... At cruise, all that the slats give is d-r-a-g-g-g..... It takes power t o overcome that drag. I saved $250 on fuel on a 50hr trip (4 litres/hr less burn @ $1.30/litre) alongside an identical aircraft with slats, so now I=92ve probably already saved $1000 over the 200hrs without slats! There is another benefit of slats (not worth considering), is that in th e event of a collision with trees or such hard objects they absorb lots of impact and protect the main structure of the wing...... After repair ing those crashed machines we had a pile of mangled slats out behind the workshop, until I sent them away for recycling..... We haven=92t found any real use either for the good slats we=92ve taken off, except to han g them up in the roof of the hangar ' makes a good ornament and conver sation starter...... So the slats myth is well and truly =91busted=92. To me it=92s just a mazing that someone, including Zenair, hadn=92t worked this out this lon g ago...... JG ======================== ======================== ======================== ===============


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com

-- "John Gilpin" <vgstol@bigpond.net.au> wrot e:

Gday, I=92m JG, the fella who started all this kafuff le about removing the slats from 701s.   It=92s sure stirred up a debate, just as I knew it would, and I=92ve really enjoyed watching from the side-lines, but now I think it=92s time to comment.

 

This is understandably a controversial move, since th ose slats are very much a defining feature of the 701.  So I need to explain the history and exper ience that led to this move ' it certainly wasn=92t just a wild idea o n an impulse.....

 

I=92ve been fascinated by the Zenair 701 ever since a magazine article in1988 entitled =93Freight Elevator to the Stars!=94.< SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  The 701 in that test repo rt was the prototype, powered by a 50hp Rotax 503!  It was a revolutionary aircraft, and I was imm ediately impressed, and ordered a set of plans.  In 1990 I went to Sun=92Fun and spent most of the week hanging around the Zenair site and helping to assemble the 701 qui ck-build kit that was the feature of their display in those days.  It was at that display that I m et the Columbians who had already tried their 701=92s without slats and liked them better that way, and had the slats hung up in their hangars.< SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  That image has been intri guing me ever since, and lots of book study on aerodynamics and real lif e observation of different aircraft made it appear truly inevitable.  The responsibilities of a yo ung family kept me from building a 701 earlier, but in that time I did f ly a single-seat Spectrum Beaver ultralight for 1000 hrs, and modified a nother Beaver into a twin-engine machine and flew it for 200hrs.  Now I finally have the time, and a really good home workshop for aircraft construction, in which we=92ve built two Savannahs from kits, and Hans and I have rebuilt three crashe d 701=92s, two of them with extensive damage, so we know every rivet in these machines!  (Each of them had slats at the time of the crashes, but don=92t anymore...)  Hans with his 701 and I with m y Savannah each flew about 200hrs in the last year without slats, so we=92re cer tainly not =91hangar flyers=92.  In my case that included a 5000km (3000mile) round trip to Tasmania, with all the variable conditions that you encounter on such a trip, and landings into some cha llenging small strips.  Ha ns did a 2500km (1500mile) trip to North Queensland and back in very wild and windy conditions, with a passenger and full load.  We both fly =91int ensively=92 and are forever trying STOL tactics and landing into tight s pots '  we do know our a ircraft really well!  So, that=92s a summary of the history and experience that I use to gu ide these experiments with VGs instead of slats.

 

So we=92re not guessing how the aircraft will fly wit hout slats ' we already know the answer to that!   I wouldn=92t have published the results if I wasn=92t absolutely certain of the facts, checked and double checke d.  In that article, =93Th e True Story of Leading Edge Slats=94, at www.stolspeed.com , I tried to d emonstrate all the testing and validation that had gone into it.  I won=92t go over all that again now, but if there are questions that I didn=92t cover in that article t hen bring them on and we=92ll look at them. 

 

Another bit of interesting evidence that has co me to mind is to watch those aircraft with retractable slats.  I=92ve seen a video of one manufact urer doing very slow turns, with the slats on the inner wing popping in and out on their own ' no apparent change in handling.  Also Carl Bertrand=92s experiments with his retractable slat wing, when one slat stuck ' =93....very little ef fect, only light aileron and rudder required....=94.  That just confirms the effect that I would e xpect from my testing. 

 

You sure would think that the rather bluff leading ed ge of the wing without the slats would be slower in cruise than a =91fin er=92 leading edge.  I had thought this as well, and even had already made up new front ribs with the same profile as the wing with slats on, for the new leading edge I t hought I was going to need after removing the slats.  But when I did the tests with the slats on a nd the slots covered over, I got a real surprise!  Cruise speed was the same as with the bluff lea ding edge!  But the stall was much more abrupt, and the centre of lift had moved forward such that I now had a seriously aft CofG.  So now I won=92t change that leading edge at all.  Those unused ribs still gather dust on a top shelf in my workshop ' such are the surprises of experimental wo rk.........

 

It=92s well known that a full-rounded leading edge is good for stall characteristics, and this wing that=92s left after you r emove the slats from a 701 is just perfect in that regard.  I=92ve flown it to the limit again and again, and with VGs it=92s never ever let me down hard!

 

Another surprise was the dramatic effect of the VGs.< SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  I had read that they redu ced the stall speed a bit and improved low speed handling, but I was ama zed at how much difference they made!& nbsp; They allow pretty much the same STOL performance as the sla ts did, but give much better cruise efficiency, and the landings are eas ier.

 

Slats are known as a high-lift device, but it s hould also be noted that they are also a high drag device.  The high lift only comes in at the very high angles of attack, but the drag is there at all speeds, and goes from high at cruise to extremely high at stall aoa.  The only time I=92 ve found a use for all that drag is for power-on spot-landings.  No se way high, hanging on the slats and the prop, 'dragging' the airc raft in below flying speed, with power controlling the descent .  Can't see where you're going with the nose so high, but easy to do a spot landing that way - just reduce the power and it'll drop down r ight now, no floating on.  But a real serious down-side of all that drag is getting caught behind the power curve, or getting caught in an increasing stall condition with out power.  Just imagine a ll that drag at the highest point of the aircraft, not only slowing you down really quickly but also tending to pull the nose up ' makes it in creasingly difficult to recover......& nbsp; A few 701=92s been bent that way.........  < /P>

 

At cruise, all that the slats give is d-r-a-g-g-g.....  It t akes power to overcome that drag.  ; I saved $250 on fuel on a 50hr trip (4 litres/hr less burn @ $1 .30/litre) alongside an identical aircraft with slats, so now I=92ve pro bably already saved $1000 over the 200hrs without slats! 

 

There is another benefit of slats (not worth considering), is that in the event of a collision with trees or such hard objects they absorb lots of impact and protect the main str ucture of the wing......  After repairing those crashed machines we had a pile of mangled slats ou t behind the workshop, until I sent them away for recycling.....  We haven=92t found any real use either for the good slats we=92ve taken off, except to hang them up in t he roof of the hangar ' makes a good ornament and conversation starter ......

 

So the slats myth is well and trul y =91busted=92.    To me it=92s just amazing th at someone, including Zenair, hadn=92t worked this out this long ago.... ..

 

JG

< /STRONG> 



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________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:28 PM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Pilot Test Game Bob, Sorry for not answering sooner. Been out hunting and visiting my brother in Fla. As for the Article on my fix for making the installation of the main gear legs, I had Gary Boothe from Calif. send it to you. I didn't send it myself. I haven't mastered copying actual pages and then sending them out as a file. Gary was kind enough to do that for me. He sent them to you and several other folks at my request. If I remember correctly is was Issue # 96 of the Zenair Newsletter back in 1996. Please contact Gary at gboothe@calply.com I'm sure he will be glad to send it to you again - you can mention that I suggested you contact him. The process I used was simply attaching some nutplates ( which line up with the holes in the steel gear fittings ) to aluminun strips ( with flush 3/32" rivets ) and then riveting the strips with a couple of flush rivets to the vertical landing gear supports. This has come in handy while modifying the main gear and replacing the bungees. Jim Hoak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Miller" Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 9:20 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Pilot Test Game > > Here's a crazy-making game to sharpen your situational awareness while > stuck in the shop. > > "It is said"... that Air Force pilots can keep the game going for two > minutes, but 18 seconds is quite respectable. > > http://members.iinet.net.au/~pontipak/redsquare.html > > > Do Not Archive > > -- > Bob Miller > 601HD N722Z > Charlottesville, Virginia > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:13 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: More flight testing Gents, The weather here has been so amazing that I can't stay out of the cockpit. I put 3 hours on the plane Wed, 4 Thurs, and 4 today. The engine is beginning to loosen up a bit, and cruise numbers are coming up a little. I spent a good amount of time calibrating my airspeed indicator off of the GPS. Here was today's test: 601 HDS taildragger / 2700cc Corvair / Warp Drive set at 9.5 deg T/O weight - 1100 lbs Altimeter - 2992 OAT - 70 deg Altitude - 1000 over the Pacific 2900 RPM 24" MAP 122 mph I think that when the engine gets fully worn in, I might get a little more speed - maybe 125. I don't think I will break 130 mph cruise without considerable efforts in cleaning up the aerodynamics of the plane. I have the big spring gear hanging out there, and big 600 x 6 tires without wheel pants. I think 125 mph will have to do! R/ Brandon Oceanside, Ca. 22 hours and counting... fast... __________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.