---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/11/06: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:42 AM - Re: vg's (Joe and Joan) 2. 05:05 AM - Re: 912 Oil Leak[Norton AntiSpam] 912 Oil Leak (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons)) 3. 05:07 AM - Re: vg's (Joe and Joan) 4. 05:19 AM - Fatal Accident; Rans S-6S; Taylorsville, NC (Ken Arnold) 5. 06:04 AM - Re: propellors (Eldo Hildebrand) 6. 06:16 AM - Re: 912 Oil Leak[Norton AntiSpam] 912 Oil Leak (Juan Vega) 7. 06:37 AM - emery/scotchbrite polisher (Michael Hilderbrand) 8. 06:53 AM - VG's (rhartwig11@juno.com) 9. 07:06 AM - Re: emery/scotchbrite polisher (Chris Lewis) 10. 07:07 AM - Re: emery/scotchbrite polisher () 11. 08:55 AM - Re: vg's (John Bolding) 12. 09:02 AM - Re: Upholstry (T. Graziano) 13. 09:02 AM - Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 14. 09:13 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Gig Giacona) 15. 09:24 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 16. 09:25 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (billbutlergps@aim.com) 17. 09:30 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 18. 09:38 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Bryan Martin) 19. 09:44 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Gig Giacona) 20. 10:00 AM - Re: VG's (Gary Gower) 21. 10:04 AM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (TYA2) 22. 11:10 AM - Re: emery/scotchbrite polisher (TxDave) 23. 12:32 PM - auto engine liquid cooling (Terry Turnquist) 24. 12:35 PM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Ron Butterfield) 25. 12:36 PM - Re: auto engine liquid cooling (Gig Giacona) 26. 01:30 PM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Trainnut01@aol.com) 27. 02:05 PM - Re: VG's (NYTerminat@aol.com) 28. 02:20 PM - Re: Re: auto engine liquid cooling (Terry Turnquist) 29. 02:32 PM - For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (Jon Croke) 30. 02:49 PM - Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (Craig Payne) 31. 03:16 PM - Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (Zodie Rocket) 32. 03:29 PM - Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (MacDonald Doug) 33. 04:06 PM - Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? (Juan Vega) 34. 05:57 PM - Pitot Tube length (Dave Ruddiman) 35. 06:20 PM - Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (Rick R) 36. 06:25 PM - Re: vg's (Avidmagnum) 37. 06:29 PM - Re: VG's on 701 Amphibian....First impression! (Avidmagnum) 38. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: auto engine liquid cooling (Tim & Diane Shankland) 39. 08:32 PM - Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! () 40. 09:35 PM - Re: baggage locker (David X) 41. 10:26 PM - Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (Jon Croke) 42. 11:13 PM - Re: Re: vg's (Les Goldner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:56 AM PST US From: "Joe and Joan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's ----- Original Message ----- From: JohnDRead@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:08 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Hi Mil: Build it like the plans. The 701 is a well thought out design and the VGs will not improve the plane. The folk messing with slat removal have not the faintest idea of what they are doing from an aerodynamic sense! The removal of the slats compromises the airfoil significantly. The slat is NOT an addition to the airfoil rather the slot is a "tunnel" through the airfoil that improves the lift coefficient of the airfoil. The increase in drag is minimal because when the plane is not at a high angle of attack there is little or no flow through the slot. Theory of Wing Sections by Abbot and Von Doenhoff describes how a slot improves the lift coefficient. VGs do not improve lift coefficient what they do do is to make a poor airfoil work a little better by making the boundary layer stick to the airfoil a little further back on the wing. The gents in Australia who stared this mess should make a call to Martin Simons who is an Aeronautical Prof. at the University of Aukland he will help them understand. Regards, John Read CH701 in Colorado ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:35 AM PST US From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons) Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 Oil Leak[Norton AntiSpam] 912 Oil Leak In regards to identifying an oil leak: Some freinds in at a Motorcycle shop spry foot powder on joints on engines just reassembled. If there is a slightest leak, the powder will soak the oil and turn brown. I have never tried this myself, but it may be worth a try. This is also a multi million dollar Motorcycle shop so I have some faith in what was said. Don not archive. -- Thanks, Rich Simmons
In regards to identifying an oil leak:
 
Some freinds in at a Motorcycle shop spry foot powder on joints on engines just reassembled. If there is a slightest leak, the powder will soak the oil and turn brown.
 
I have never tried this myself, but it may be worth a try.
 
This is also a multi million dollar Motorcycle shop so I have some faith in what was said.
 
Don not archive.
 
 
--
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:51 AM PST US From: "Joe and Joan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's John, I know you don't know me, but I just reported positively on how the VG's actually worked. I did talk to an aeronautical engineer that did a lot of testing in the early years of the VG idea and yes, your description of their properties agree with his, except that he didn't think the airfoil Chris chose for the 701 was a poor one, but a good one for STOL. At least 6 people who have done this change have noted increased cruise speed, so it is hard to believe that the slats don't increase drag a bit more than minimal. You must have some reason, other than what you stated to make such a strong recommendation "build it like the plans", the ?VG's will not improve the plane" right after reading reports that they do. I have over 5000 Hrs. in small aircraft, over two thousand hrs. instructing is aircraft that weighed less than 900 lbs empty, so feel that I am qualified to say. "The 701 take off and landing are as short as they were before". It has been to windy to do accurate testing, but what I have said, including that the cruise speed is faster, stands. I will not get in a heated debate about this, but feel Mil needs more than your opinion on how to build his airplane. It is an experimental plane. That's all folks. Joe from FL ----- Original Message ----- From: JohnDRead@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:08 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's Hi Mil: Build it like the plans. The 701 is a well thought out design and the VGs will not improve the plane. The folk messing with slat removal have not the faintest idea of what they are doing from an aerodynamic sense! The removal of the slats compromises the airfoil significantly. The slat is NOT an addition to the airfoil rather the slot is a "tunnel" through the airfoil that improves the lift coefficient of the airfoil. The increase in drag is minimal because when the plane is not at a high angle of attack there is little or no flow through the slot. Theory of Wing Sections by Abbot and Von Doenhoff describes how a slot improves the lift coefficient. VGs do not improve lift coefficient what they do do is to make a poor airfoil work a little better by making the boundary layer stick to the airfoil a little further back on the wing. The gents in Australia who stared this mess should make a call to Martin Simons who is an Aeronautical Prof. at the University of Aukland he will help them understand. Regards, John Read CH701 in Colorado ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:04 AM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Zenith-List: Fatal Accident; Rans S-6S; Taylorsville, NC List, There was fatal accident outside of Taylorsville, NC yesterday. 2 fatalities. Charlotte Observer has some info. Owner and passenger died. Taylorsville Airport is private strip. Ken Arnold Pikeville, NC ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:58 AM PST US From: "Eldo Hildebrand" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: propellors X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) I thought I'd add a little to the propeller comment. In considering diameter, some thought needs to go into rpm and blade tip speed as the tip approaches the speed of sound, in general the efficiency falls off. This means that higher speed engines (most conversions) need to either be geared down or the prop must be of a smaller diameter to keep the tip speed down. Of course a smaller diameter means less blade area and the prop will be unable to use available power... thus the need to add more blades to make use of the horsepower when the diameter is reduced. I am sure there are more specific guide-lines on the web with more equations and theory than this simple Civil Engineer wants to look at but this is a general view of the compromise of diameter-rpm-number of blades. Eldo Hildebrand, PhD., P.Eng. Assistant Dean, Faculty of Engineering University of New Brunswick P.O Box 4400 Fredericton, NB E3B 5A3 tel 506-453-4521 fax 506-453-3568 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:34 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 Oil Leak[Norton AntiSpam] 912 Oil Leak when my grandpa worked on planes, he used to put talc. it is a good lube for the joints and woul stain indicating grease present. he died with 15,000 hours. alot of those tricks still work today. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Rich Simmons <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> >Sent: Dec 11, 2006 8:05 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 Oil Leak[Norton AntiSpam] 912 Oil Leak > >In regards to identifying an oil leak: > >Some freinds in at a Motorcycle shop spry foot powder on joints on engines just reassembled. If there is a slightest leak, the powder will soak the oil and turn brown. > >I have never tried this myself, but it may be worth a try. > >This is also a multi million dollar Motorcycle shop so I have some faith in what was said. > >Don not archive. > > >-- >Thanks, >Rich Simmons ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:32 AM PST US From: Michael Hilderbrand Subject: Zenith-List: emery/scotchbrite polisher After watching the scratchbuilding DVD by Homebuilt.com, I noticed they had a polishing wheel on their drill press made form Emery and scotchbrite. Do es anyone have a part number for this item. It seems like it takes the shar p edges off nice and fast. =0AThanks!=0A =0AMichael Hilderbrand ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: VG's From: rhartwig11@juno.com John, How do you explain the success that owners of many 701's with many hours in the air are having with slats removed? Their data (not speculation) seems to suggest that slat removal works. Hundreds of hours of successful flight seems to be more than luck. The "clone company" also seems to believe it works. Rich Hartwig Waunakee, WI rhartwig11@juno.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:01 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: emery/scotchbrite polisher From: "Chris Lewis" Michael - It's called a Combi-wheel (see attached photo). It comes in 80 grit and 120 grit with ALUMINUM oxide abrasives, lest we start down that rabbit hole again... :P Enjoy. Chris in Seattle -------- 701 Scratch Builder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p749#80749 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/comb_wheel_149.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:36 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: emery/scotchbrite polisher Check Aircraft Spruce catalog or online. Part numbers are: 12-00875 12-00876 12-00948 Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL/Jabiru/Cabin area ---- Michael Hilderbrand wrote: > After watching the scratchbuilding DVD by Homebuilt.com, I noticed they had a polishing wheel on their drill press made form Emery and scotchbrite. Does anyone have a part number for this item. It seems like it takes the sharp edges off nice and fast. Thanks! Michael Hilderbrand ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:03 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's John, you make a lot of blanket statements, the older I get the less of those I make 'cause generally they don't hold water. I'll show you a little of what I mean. ----- Original Message ----- From: JohnDRead@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:08 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's ((Hi Mil: Build it like the plans. )) Yeah , right. The plans have had several HUNDRED corrections in the last few yrs so where do you propose we start? ((The 701 is a well thought out design and the VGs will not improve the plane. The folk messing with slat removal have not the faintest idea of what they are doing from an aerodynamic sense! )) The actual FLIGHT TESTING seems to indicate otherwise. Do you offer flight testing to substantiate your statement?? How do you KNOW that the people doing this are not qualified? If they AREN'T "Qualified" the NAME of this activity is Experimental Aircraft, they do not need permission to try something different. ((The removal of the slats compromises the airfoil significantly. )) CHANGES might be a better word. Or maybe not , you choose. ((The slat is NOT an addition to the airfoil rather the slot is a "tunnel" through the airfoil that improves the lift coefficient of the airfoil. )) Everyone I've talked to so far seems to understand that concept, no arguement. ((The increase in drag is minimal because when the plane is not at a high angle of attack there is little or no flow through the slot. Theory of Wing Sections by Abbot and Von Doenhoff describes how a slot improves the lift coefficient.)) SOME of the papers on this subject indicate that slats work best (give the most improvement) on airfoils of 15% thick or LESS. The 65018 is 18% . The testing done in Australia on flights over long distances comparing fuel burn with and without slats goes a LOT farther than opinion. ((VGs do not improve lift coefficient what they do do is to make a poor airfoil work a little better by making the boundary layer stick to the airfoil a little further back on the wing. The gents in Australia who stared this mess should make a call to Martin Simons who is an Aeronautical Prof. at the University of Aukland he will help them understand.)) You are surely unaware of the MANY Twin engine airplanes that have become MUCH safer because of the added performance that VG's provide. Singles too. The FAA would NOT have certified those installations if they changed the flight characteristics for the negative. Actually I think it's the other way around. Quite possibly Professor Simons would be anxious to see the FLIGHT TEST DATA already procurred to compare to either other flight data or someone's THEORY, maybe HE should call them. MANY years ago a partner and I undertook to build a composite version of Dave Thurston's Trojan/Seafire 4 place amphib. Had Dave in our place for several days, picking his brain as fast as we could think of questions. We had asked Harry Riblett ( he UNDERSTANDS airfoils) to provide us with a different airfoil as the original one had a LOT of pitch drag to overcome. After chewing over Harry's foil for a few days Dave blessed it as better than what he originally used (and certified). What a statement coming from him. EVERYTHING can be improved. I have a buddy that has just completed testing of his 701 with VG's instead of slats, he is going to cut off the brackets as all testing CONFIRMED the claims. He is NOT a "test pilot" but has tens of thousands of hrs in B-52's, Airbuses, homebuilts and ultralights and has done before and after tests of VG's on other aircraft. He knows what a test card is and how to use it. LOW&SLOW John Bolding ((Regards, John Read CH701 in Colorado)) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:27 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Upholstry I used foam posterboard covered with auto trunk liner material, and 3M spray adhesive to attach the cloth, all purchased at Wal-Mart. I also used a piece of Velcro in each "bay" to attach the pieces. I easily remove all upolhostry for inspection. I also used the cloth and foam covered pieces for my floor, although I did install Aluminum skid plates for my feet in front of the rudder pedals.. The skid plats are fastened on top of the material with panhead screws in the corners picking up loctited rivnuts ("Red" thread locker type 262 with attach holes made with a unibit, vice a drill. I have never had, to date, any rivnuts spin on me) The pieces are light weight. The material I used is not FAA certified for fire resistance. Tony Graziano 601XL/Jab3300 181 hrs. Time: 03:44:34 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Upholstry Sorry 'bout that! I neglected to give my post a subject line. I still want to know what you builders are using for the interior side panels. Jay in Dallas, 601XL ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:31 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? Folks: I am a new builder (601XL/TD/QBK/Corvair, kit delivery this week!) and would like to get some feedback on landing and taxi light requirements. I tend to do a lot of night flying, but am not planning on installing the standard 2 x 4509 leading edge kit from Zenith, mainly because of the high power drain and low light/power ratio. Also, I don't really like the installation. I am thinking either 55W automotive driving lights (~ same light as 4509's - very low cost) or 35W HID driving lights (~about 2-3 times the light of 4509's, much higher cost). I have never owned an airplane that has such low landing speeds and am not really sure how much light is needed. I am also not decided yet where to install the lights - under fuselage, attached to gear legs or in the leading edge. Anyway, any experience or opinions from other 601XL flyers would be appreciated. Here is a link to the info about the Xenarc X1010 HID lights: (Note that you can remove the fog filter in these lamps to get full driving light power.) www.suvlights.com Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (601XL/TD, Corvair, building...) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:56 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? From: "Gig Giacona" I don't think you'll have any problem with using the auto lights though I'd be interested in knowing what you don't like about the leading edge installation. Putting them any where else is going to add drag without a whole bunch of fairing. And adding them to the gear would put the wires having to run out like the brake lines and I hate the brake lines. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p803#80803 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:12 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? A good alternative is to use the van's rv landing lights set up .... they use off the shelf lights from autozone and they work great. Jeff ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? From: billbutlergps@aim.com Are you planning to fly under "light sport" license? Bill -----Original Message----- From: a.s.elliott@cox.net To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? Folks: I am a new builder (601XL/TD/QBK/Corvair, kit delivery this week!) and would like to get some feedback on landing and taxi light requirements. I tend to do a lot of night flying, but am not planning on installing the standard 2 x 4509 leading edge kit from Zenith, mainly because of the high power drain and low light/power ratio. Also, I don't really like the installation. I am thinking either 55W automotive driving lights (~ same light as 4509's - very low cost) or 35W HID driving lights (~about 2-3 times the light of 4509's, much higher cost). I have never owned an airplane that has such low landing speeds and am not really sure how much light is needed. I am also not decided yet where to install the lights - under fuselage, attached to gear legs or in the leading edge. Anyway, any experience or opinions from other 601XL flyers would be appreciated. Here is a link to the info about the Xenarc X1010 HID lights: (Note that you can remove the fog filter in these lamps to get full driving light power.) www.suvlights.com Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:37 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? That was not part of his question. I'm sure he knows he can't night fly under light sport but he may want to drive around on the ground a few hours after dark though huh? do not archive In a message dated 12/11/2006 12:26:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, billbutlergps@aim.com writes: Are you planning to fly under "light sport" license? Bill ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:59 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? I installed off-road hid lights in my wing-tips. These give a narrow beam that really reaches out a long way. I would have preferred to have one of these and the other a wider beam light for better side visibility for taxiing but they come in pairs and I wasn't about to buy two sets. The X1010 lights you mentioned might be better as a taxi light than a landing light because of the wide beam. If you had someone else to go in with, you might consider buying a set of X1010s and another set of off-road lights and split them up so each of you could install one as a landing light and the other as a taxi light. My lights have worked out pretty well for both purposes since they have to be angled downward to view the runway on final approach they hit the taxi-way about 20 yards ahead of the plane while on the ground and the back scatter does a decent job of lighting up the area. On Dec 11, 2006, at 11:58 AM, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > I am a new builder (601XL/TD/QBK/Corvair, kit delivery this week!) > and would like to get some feedback on landing and taxi light > requirements. > > www.suvlights.com > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? From: "Gig Giacona" He also never says ANYTHING about flying as LSA. [quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]That was not part of his question. I'm sure he knows he can't night fly under light sport but he may want to drive around on the ground a few hours after dark though huh? do not archive In a message dated 12/11/2006 12:26:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, billbutlergps@aim.com writes: > Are you planning to fly under "light sport" license? > Bill > > > [b] -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p817#80817 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:11 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VG's My personal point of view: For now, and dont know how long, I will not experiment this "novelty". There are so much flying scenarios possibles when flying... Weather, crosswind landings, windshear, etc. that could affect the airplane (and pilot) by surprise, that I will not take that chance for a couple of mph either side of the speeds. Is a Mayor Mod, Not just like wheel pants and strut cleaning. Now we cross (93) very near VNE, For more speed is why we are building the 601 XL, (also as is) and will try to keep both. Once I see data from a wind tunnel or from ZAC, then I will probably think about it. I enjoy my 701 so much "as is" that just sill be reading about this mod for a while. I chosed this plane (701), I like it, I ejnoy it, why mess with it? Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. 701 912S With Slats and Slots :-) John, How do you explain the success that owners of many 701's with many hours in the air are having with slats removed? Their data (not speculation) seems to suggest that slat removal works. Hundreds of hours of successful flight seems to be more than luck. The "clone company" also seems to believe it works. Rich Hartwig Waunakee, WI rhartwig11@juno.com --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:06 AM PST US From: TYA2 Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? Dear Andy Elliot, Are you the guy from the grumman gang? Maybe the real reason for not installing GE4509s is the high price, low life span when installed in cowling. The key thing about lights whether aircraft or automotive is what do they illuminate and where are they located and how can you adjust them to see what you need... Landing lights may be a see and be seen item for the tower, or other aircraft in low viz, they may illuminate other obstacles on the ground when taxiing, and they may show you critters or debris on the runway or taxiway in the dark. If you can't adjust the pattern of illumination, it doesn't matter what you install they are more show than go... Reg ex AA-1, AA-5, BD-4 and whole bunch of other planes, currently own 1995 Zenith CH2000 with dual 4509s in the left wing. At 09:58 AM 12/11/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Folks: > >I am a new builder (601XL/TD/QBK/Corvair, kit delivery this week!) and >would like to get some feedback on landing and taxi light requirements. > >I tend to do a lot of night flying, but am not planning on installing the >standard 2 x 4509 leading edge kit from Zenith, mainly because of the high >power drain and low light/power ratio. Also, I don't really like the >installation. > >I am thinking either 55W automotive driving lights (~ same light as 4509's >- very low cost) or 35W HID driving lights (~about 2-3 times the light of >4509's, much higher cost). I have never owned an airplane that has such >low landing speeds and am not really sure how much light is needed. > >I am also not decided yet where to install the lights - under fuselage, >attached to gear legs or in the leading edge. > >Anyway, any experience or opinions from other 601XL flyers would be >appreciated. Here is a link to the info about the Xenarc X1010 HID >lights: (Note that you can remove the fog filter in these lamps to get >full driving light power.) > >www.suvlights.com > >Thanks, >Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ >N601GE (601XL/TD, Corvair, building...) > >www.aeroelectric.com >www.buildersbooks.com >http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: emery/scotchbrite polisher From: "TxDave" Hey Michael, I found the wheels at my local Ace Hardware. do not archive Dave Clay Temple TX http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p835#80835 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:42 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Zenith-List: auto engine liquid cooling All right you gearheads...aside from the weight penalty what is the argument against using an automotive AC condenser rather than evaporators or actual radiator? DO Not Archive Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans St. Peters, MO --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:45 PM PST US From: "Ron Butterfield" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? On 12/11/06, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote: > > I tend to do a lot of night flying, but am not planning on installing the > standard 2 x 4509 leading edge kit from Zenith, mainly because of the high > power drain and low light/power ratio. If your only objection to the 4509 was the power drain, I would recommend the 50W H7604 instead. > I am thinking either 55W automotive driving lights (~ same light as 4509's - > very low cost) I personally would be very skeptical of this claim; I tried a pair of (admittedly cheap) driving lights on my motorcycle and could still see my shadow from my buddy's stock halogen headlight. Automotive lights generally put out a spread-out beam, quite unlike the very bright spot of an aircraft landing light bulb. -- Regards, RonB ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: auto engine liquid cooling From: "Gig Giacona" The message above doesn't show in the Forum Interface. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p853#80853 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:48 PM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? Andy T will be flying my 601 as an LSA. I will be installing a 55w automotive "Taxi" light in the wing. Not because I intend to fly or even taxi at night but because many times in my almost 40 years of flying (next March) I have had tower operators at smaller tower controlled airports as me to "show a light" It would embarrass me to tell them that I don't have any lights. Carroll Jernigan XL Corvair working on the wings (still) do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:18 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VG's Gary, There is always room for improvement. If the vg's give you the same stol performance and allows you to go faster and uses less fuel, I don't see too many downsides. Bob Spudis N701ZX CH701/912S 92hrs In a message dated 12/11/2006 1:02:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ggower_99@yahoo.com writes: Once I see data from a wind tunnel or from ZAC, then I will probably think about it. I enjoy my 701 so much "as is" that just sill be reading about this mod for a while. I chosed this plane (701), I like it, I ejnoy it, why mess with it? Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. 701 912S With Slats and ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:21 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: auto engine liquid cooling Hi, a question for the gearheads among you is this. Aside from being heavy, what's the downside of using an automobile AC condenser rather than AC evaporators or regular radiator for aircraft convesion? Thanks. Do Not Archive. Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans St. Peters, MO Gig Giacona wrote: The message above doesn't show in the Forum Interface. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p853#80853 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:00 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! If you are not a 701 builder then send this to the trash can... For those of you that are now just entering the wonderful world of 701 construction, HomebuiltHELP has a video for you! This will be the first in a series of volumes dedicated to assisting in constructing this plane, slats and all! http://homebuilthelp.com/Rear_Fuselage.htm Released this morning, just in time for holiday shopping! ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:06 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! Does this mean your own 701 is coming along? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:38 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! Now we have an official way of tracking Jon=92s progress! There are few of us that have as much construction experience on one type of aircraft. You know this guy loves a 701 when he is willing to build a 3rd one. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK "http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK "http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 5:49 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! Does this mean your own 701 is coming along? -- Craig "http://www.aeroelectric.com"www.aeroelectric.com "http://www.buildersbooks.com"www.buildersbooks.com "http://www.kitlog.com"www.kitlog.com "http://www.homebuilthelp.com"www.homebuilthelp.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Zenith-List -- 12/11/2006 -- 12/11/2006 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:22 PM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! Hey Jon, a little late for me, I'm almost ready to join the front and rear halves on mine. Didn't stop me from sending in an order for another DVD for my Homebuilthelp collection though. Looks like a good subject for a video to me. Do not archive Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:59 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? Trainnut, the plus side is LSA allows for one hour after sunset. Cannot hurt resell value either. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Trainnut01@aol.com >Sent: Dec 11, 2006 4:29 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Landing/taxi light requirements for 601XL? > >Andy >T will be flying my 601 as an LSA. I will be installing a 55w automotive >"Taxi" light in the wing. Not because I intend to fly or even taxi at night but >because many times in my almost 40 years of flying (next March) I have had >tower operators at smaller tower controlled airports as me to "show a light" It >would embarrass me to tell them that I don't have any lights. >Carroll Jernigan >XL Corvair working on the wings (still) > >do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:40 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Zenith-List: Pitot Tube length A question for you all. Is there a specific length or I.D. the pitot tube is supposed to be. I thought I would use the one supplied for my 801 and make it replaceable. I've never had one broken, but it would be nice to just screw in another one if it did happen. Dave in Salem ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:42 PM PST US From: Rick R Subject: Re: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! COUNT ME IN ! ! ! do not archive Jon Croke wrote: If you are not a 701 builder then send this to the trash can... For those of you that are now just entering the wonderful world of 701 construction, HomebuiltHELP has a video for you! This will be the first in a series of volumes dedicated to assisting in constructing this plane, slats and all! http://homebuilthelp.com/Rear_Fuselage.htm Released this morning, just in time for holiday shopping! Rick Sharpsburg, GA. USA http://www.n701rr.com --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: vg's From: "Avidmagnum" Hi Joe I also removed the slats from my 701 Amphib and put on the feathers VGs. I've been flying the wings off it the last few days. I left the brackets on till I was sure that I would not change my mind. Today I cut off the slat brackets...I'm that convinced that the vg's (FOR ME) are the way to go. I liked my 701 Amphib but 85 mph at 5500 was not doing it for me. My buddy with the Rans s-7 with the same floats, engine , warp prop and heavier does 105 mph. With vg's and no slats I can now do 92 mph or even beter fly at 85 with less rpm. I also find the aircraft "nicer" to fly...not that it was ever bad. I also do not want to argue with anyone. So if you like your slats.......please keep them......and for anyone still building I will be glad to sell you a nice set. Smile and have a nice day! Tom Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p918#80918 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: VG's on 701 Amphibian....First impression! From: "Avidmagnum" I have only time with VG's on the floats but go to www.speedstol.com and they talk about speed on wheels....happy flying ......tom Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p919#80919 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:59 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: auto engine liquid cooling Terry, When I was designing the cooling system for my Stratus Suburu several years ago I tested an AC evaporator and several heater cores to find the right combination for my installation. In general I found that the AC units were less effective in heat exchange than the heater cores. I believe the reason is that the AC system has to be capable of holding a hundreds pounds of pressure or so, while the auto heat exchanger only has to hold 14 psi. Consequently if you look at the AC heat exchanger it is much heavier and has thicker passages. Heater cores and auto radiators appear to be almost paper thin and transfer the heat more effectively. Tim Shankland Terry Turnquist wrote: > Hi, a question for the gearheads among you is this. Aside from being > heavy, what's the downside of using an automobile AC condenser rather > than AC evaporators or regular radiator for aircraft convesion? Thanks. > Do Not Archive. > > Terry Turnquist > 601XL-Plans > St. Peters, MO > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > > The message above doesn't show in the Forum Interface. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:46 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! Hey Jon Croke, I've been reading about all of this flight experience with the slats removed and vortex generators in their place. I'm finally finishing up the tail and thinking about the wings (yes, I know I'm as slow as you know what). But, I am actually thinking about building my wings minus the slats. Since you are on your third CH701, and obviously know the thing inside out, what is your take on this no-slats approach? Bob Eli ---- Rick R wrote: > COUNT ME IN ! ! ! > > do not archive > > Jon Croke wrote: > > If you are not a 701 builder then send this to the trash can... > > For those of you that are now just entering the wonderful world of 701 construction, HomebuiltHELP has a video for you! This will be the first in a series of volumes dedicated to assisting in constructing this plane, slats and all! > > http://homebuilthelp.com/Rear_Fuselage.htm > > Released this morning, just in time for holiday shopping! > > > > > Rick > Sharpsburg, GA. USA > http://www.n701rr.com > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: baggage locker From: "David X" KISS -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p947#80947 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:50 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! Hi Bob, I am honored that you would ask my opinion about this, however I am the LEAST qualified to express an opinion about this topic. I have no formal aerodynamics education... and you may recall I am sometimes challenged at keeping the plane in the air for more than a few hours! If you have not built the fuselage yet, consider building that before building the wings. Obviously they both (wings and fuse) have to be completed before flying, but I have found it makes a lot more emotional sense to have the body of the plane done and sitting there whilst you embark on the wings. (Something to sit in, and hangar fly in around the yard, maybe even start the engine) I have done it both ways... building the fuse first is much more rewarding, in my opinion! Jon > > Hey Jon Croke, > > I've been reading about all of this flight experience with the slats > removed and vortex generators in their place. I'm finally finishing up > the tail and thinking about the wings (yes, I know I'm as slow as you know > what). But, I am actually thinking about building my wings minus the > slats. Since you are on your third CH701, and obviously know the thing > inside out, what is your take on this no-slats approach? > > Bob Eli > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:36 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: vg's Avidmagnum (?) I'm ready to start building my slats. What condition are yours slats in, and how much do you want for them (include shipping to the San Francisco Area)? Anything to speed up the work! With all this VG talk, I spoke with Michael Heintz last week. Michael, one of Chris Heintz's sons, has a shop north of here in Cloverdale Ca where he builds 601's and 701s. I respect and trust his opinion regarding the 701. Michael cautioned against substituting leading Edge slats with VGs, saying that even design changes may lead to a domino effect, and removing the slats is NOT a "small" change! He asked why would you even entertain the idea of becoming a guinea pig for some unknown armchair designer or the manufacturer of a gadget who, while they may "make a good case", have little CH 701 experience? He qualified his opinion saying that personally he as no experience with VGs on the 701. He also said that there are hundreds of 701 successfully flying with slats; their owners don't complain that the stall speed of the aircraft is too fast or the take-off run is too long... again strongly recommending that I stick with the plans! I am a graduate engineer. Although I have not done any analysis on the wing strength with or without slats, it is obvious that slats do add some strength to the wings. I would want to see wing stress test data with VGs before succumbing to the glitter of a few more knots. While the promise of a few knots is appealing, I am more concerned that the wings stay put in unforeseen marginal weather or when I'm forced to make tight maneuvers. Regards, Les > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Avidmagnum > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 6:25 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: vg's > > > > Hi Joe > > I also removed the slats from my 701 Amphib and put on the > feathers VGs. I've been flying the wings off it the last few > days. I left the brackets on till I was sure that I would not > change my mind. Today I cut off the slat brackets...I'm that > convinced that the vg's (FOR ME) are the way to go. I liked > my 701 Amphib but 85 mph at 5500 was not doing it for me. My > buddy with the Rans s-7 with the same floats, engine , warp > prop and heavier does 105 mph. With vg's and no slats I can > now do 92 mph or even beter fly at 85 with less rpm. I also > find the aircraft "nicer" to fly...not that it was ever bad. > > I also do not want to argue with anyone. So if you like your > slats.......please keep them......and for anyone still > building I will be glad to sell you a nice set. Smile and > have a nice day! Tom > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p918#80918 > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.