Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:28 AM - Test (Randy)
2. 04:20 AM - Re: POR 15 (MacDonald Doug)
3. 05:03 AM - Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (steveadams)
4. 05:36 AM - Re: vg's (steveadams)
5. 07:42 AM - paint and transmitted noise (LarryMcFarland)
6. 09:31 AM - Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested (Bob)
7. 09:32 AM - Re: paint and transmitted noise (Randy)
8. 10:09 AM - Storage of components (PipercubDream@aol.com)
9. 10:28 AM - Re: Storage of components ()
10. 10:57 AM - Re: Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested (MrBizi)
11. 11:27 AM - Re:Storage of components (MaxNr@aol.com)
12. 01:23 PM - Re:Storage of components (Aaron Gustafson)
13. 01:39 PM - Selling our 601xl (Jack Russell)
14. 02:39 PM - Re: Storage of components (Dave Ruddiman)
15. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: vg's (R.D.(Ron) Leclerc)
16. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! (Christian Tremblay)
17. 03:39 PM - Re: POR 15 (Eddie G.)
18. 03:56 PM - Re: Re:Re: VG's (Gary Gower)
19. 04:12 PM - Re: Re:Storage of components (Edward Moody II)
20. 05:21 PM - Tools (Dennis Wieck)
21. 05:37 PM - Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? (PatrickW)
22. 05:47 PM - Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested (David X)
23. 06:00 PM - Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? (Robin Bellach)
24. 06:25 PM - Re: Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? (Jaybannist@cs.com)
25. 06:30 PM - Re: Re: POR 15 (Dave Ruddiman)
26. 08:36 PM - Re: Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? (L. Kilburg)
27. 10:59 PM - Re: Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? (xl)
Message 1
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Just a test to see if this ends up in the Earthlink's Known Spam folder.
I had to switch to Yahoo just so I can receive may own emails. For some reason
anything I send to the list goes to spam.
Randy Stout
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
r5t0ut21@yahoo.com
Do not archive
__________________________________________________
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Eddie, I have only had very limited exposure to the
POR-15 product line when I was playing with antique
cars. The trick to POR-15 is the phosphoric acid
metal prep you put on the rusted steel to neutralize
the rust and give the coating some bite to the steel
before applying the top coat.
I tried two starter kits on a car I was restoring.
I'm not sure if I used them correctly or not but was
not really that impressed with the results. I've seen
the hype at car shows so that is why I think I may
have been misusing the product. It did not work any
better than good quality enamel paint.
As for using it with aluminum, I cannot comment. Is
there a new POR-15 product designed for use with
aluminum? If you are thinking of using the Automotive
products on aluminum, I would think they would be a
bit on the heavy side for aviation use.
If you were thinking of using it to coat the steel
components such as the engine mount, my concern would
be that supposedly the POR-15 is very resistant to
cracks (I'm not sure on this point) but this feature
could possibly hide a developing crack in the
underlying metal. Other than that, I suspect it would
work well. Powder coating would probably be better
for this application though.
Hope these opinions help a little.
do not archive
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Want to start your own business?
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! |
Impressive credentials Larry. I'm sure the aircraft you build are impecable and
the builders lucky enough to have your guidance benefit greatly and are quite
lucky. Unfortunately many of us do not have the same knowledge and experience
as you, and often times get conflicting "expert advise" without a definite knowledge
of which source is more credible. Not to say that Chris is perfect, his
designs are perfect, or that the construction manuals are perfect. However,
I don't think anyone could question his knowledge of aircraft design and track
record as a designer. As you said, there is absolutely nothing that can't be
improved. Unfortunately, I have read of too many "improvements" made by well meaning,
but misguided, builders that have ended in crumpled aluminum and worse.
I'm sure there are many builders with knowledge and experience similar to your
own who make many viable improvements to the original designs, construction
methods, and materials. However, the beauty of Experimental aircraft and the
currently available kits is that virtually anyone, regardless of experience or
prior knowledge, can build a safe, economical, well designed and performing aircraft.
Most of us are not experts. As such, the best way for us to safely build
an aircraft is to look to the designer of the aircraft as the defacto expert
in constructing his design. It may not result in a perfect airplane, but in
doing it this way, it will also not result in fatally flawed final product. Wave
the "experimental" banner, do whatever you think will make your airplane better,
but don't berate those of us in this simply for the joy of building a proven,
safe, fun, well designed airplane the way it was designed.
Steve Adams
CH640
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81699#81699
Message 4
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It is easy to make changes to an airframe to change or improve specific performance
parameters. Based on your data, it seems clear that you are making the 701
a bit faster and with at least similar STOL performance. The difficult part
of making these type of changes is figuring out what effects it has besides the
desired improvements. I think you have shown, at least in these posts, that
you have not done a thorough evaluation of these untoward effects. You have effectively
changed the airfoil, changed the wing chord, decreased the wing area,
changed the MAC. How does this change effect wing loading, forces on the wing
attachments, VNE and flutter, center of gravity, forces on the tail and fuselage
etc. The 701 is likely over designed to the point that these changes may
have no overall effect, however, there could be that single weak link that is
stressed a little too close to the safety margin. The wrong combination of factors
could be catastrophic. You haven't shown me that you have even begun to examine
these factors. So there are 10 or 20 or 50 701's flying this way without
a problem. How many potential problems have shown up in certified aircraft,
even after exhaustive design, research, and testing, only after many 100's or
1000's are flying? Do yourself and those considering making this change a favor
and do the appropriate structural design evaluation before touting this as the
greatest thing since sliced bread.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81708#81708
Message 5
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| Subject: | paint and transmitted noise |
Hi guys,
I finally flew the 601HDS after painting it with an AFS catalyzed
urethane, beginning last April. The Subaru started very smoothly and on
taxiing, I became aware that the engine and airframe sounds had changed.
The engine noise previously echoed and carried through the skins as a
high pitch vibration was reduced or simply canceled out. This was very
noticeable in flight.
I realized that the added 13 pounds of paint seal and thickness had
affected the way the sound is conducted through the airplane. Its
definitely an improvement, even before soundproofing.
The 70 inch 3 blade Warp Drive and Subaru have been described as a
relatively quiet combination and I would not have guessed that painting
this plane would make such a difference.
Thought you might find this of interest if youre thinking to paint or
not.
Fly safely guys,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested |
Not a complete list by any stretch, but go to:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
Check the amateur-built box and put "601" in the block for make/model, then click
on Submit Query. You'll get two pages of records for variants of the 601.
You can change the make/model to "zenith," "Zenair," etc.
Bob
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81755#81755
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: paint and transmitted noise |
Larry
After I painted mine, it lost a lot of the oil canning that would happen just before
a stall.
Randy Stout
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
r5t0ut21@yahoo.com
Replacement engine nearly installed, and should be flying again before Christmas.
Hi guys,
I finally flew the 601HDS after painting it with an AFS catalyzed
urethane, beginning last April. The Subaru started very smoothly and on
taxiing, I became aware that the engine and airframe sounds had changed.
The engine noise previously echoed and carried through the skins as a
high pitch vibration was reduced or simply canceled out. This was very
noticeable in flight.
I realized that the added 13 pounds of paint seal and thickness had
affected the way the sound is conducted through the airplane. Its
definitely an improvement, even before soundproofing.
The 70 inch 3 blade Warp Drive and Subaru have been described as a
relatively quiet combination and I would not have guessed that painting
this plane would make such a difference.
Thought you might find this of interest if youre thinking to paint or
not.
Fly safely guys,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
__________________________________________________
Message 8
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| Subject: | Storage of components |
I'm sure this has been touched on before but I was curious about the storage
of completed components. After I finish my tail kit and I'm working on the
other pieces and parts should I apply some kind of protective coating to the
exposed aluminum? I have a dry basement/storage/winter workshop area and I can
see a couple of years ahead of building and assembly. I plan of painting my ch
701 and had thought of simply applying primer after each completed part.
Thanks.....Ben
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Storage of components |
I think that if you apply primer now to the finished tail parts you will succeed
in protecting the exterior aluminum surfaces from corrosion. What is less clear
is whether or not that old primer will be a problem when you actually do your
painting in two or three years. Have you considered painting parts of the
plane as you get them finished?
I look forward to hearing what other folks who know more about painting will say
about this.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
601XL/Jabiru/cabin area
---- PipercubDream@aol.com wrote:
After I finish my tail kit and I'm working on the other pieces and parts should
I apply some kind of protective coating to the exposed aluminum? I plan on painting
my ch 701 and had thought of simply applying primer after each completed
part.
>
> Thanks.....Ben
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested |
All:
Here is a spreadsheet that was put together so I could get a better idea of their
safety record. It's all NTSB information except for the number of planes flying...
that was from the Zenith website if available (not sure the 801 list
is correct).
thanks.
PS This information is provided at your own risk you need to do your own research
and not depend on this research. The best source is directly from the NTSB
and other such organizations. EAA and AOPA can help.
Bob <dswaim1119@comcast.net> wrote:
Not a complete list by any stretch, but go to:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
Check the amateur-built box and put "601" in the block for make/model, then click
on Submit Query. You'll get two pages of records for variants of the 601. You
can change the make/model to "zenith," "Zenair," etc.
Bob
--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81755#81755
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re:Storage of components |
Do not archive
If you you prime with ZINC PHOSPHATE, you must apply top coat within four
hours. according to label. I've got some Cortec on the way to (hopefully) get
around this. Just wondering: Would a semi-annual coat of WD-40 and bubble wrap
work? I've been told by another sadder but wiser builder that if you ever apply
a corrosion blocker (ACF-50,Corrosion-X etc) to any surface, forget about
painting it latter. I have no personal info on this item and I am only rumor-
mongering.
Bob D.
XL-lyc-rudd&eng mt
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re:Storage of components |
I just took the tail parts of my 601 out of storage in my garage attic
after 8 years with no protection at all and except for needing to wash
off the dust and mouse /flying squirrel crap they are just fine. If they
don't get wet why should they need other protection?
Aaron Gustafson do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Selling our 601xl |
Since we don't live in the same town anymore, it is becoming difficult to be partners
in our zodiac. We have decided to sell it.
For sale
601xl ser #5000
first flown April 06
jabiru 3300 engine
about 50 hrs tt
basic panel with lowrance 2000c gps, transponder, icom200, intercom
elect trim, elevator and aileron
located in Fresno CA
$60,000
check out the website ( keep trying if you can't get in) but I have lots of pics
if you email me.
jack and steve
Jack Russell -Clovis CA
601 XL Jabiru 3300
Progress update at:
http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Storage of components |
Hi Ben,
I don't know about anyone else, but I am planning on painting my
components with epoxy primer tinted to the approximate finish color. It
will give my an idea of what the plane will look like when it's done and
if I don't paint it right away it will last for quite awhile until I do.
Plus it will be primed between all the parts. Using epoxy means it will
take a little sanding and scuffing to apply the top coat, but it's all
dooable. Some will not agree, some will, but I don't care because it's
my plane and that's the beauty of it. I can do what ever I want. I
already know the pros and cons of doing this. I have been around
painting for 30+ years. I don't know everything, but I do know a lot
about this. Plus I have done a little research.
Good Luck
Dave in Salem - where the wind finally died down.
801
----- Original Message -----
From: PipercubDream@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Storage of components
I'm sure this has been touched on before but I was curious about the
storage of completed components. After I finish my tail kit and I'm
working on the other pieces and parts should I apply some kind of
protective coating to the exposed aluminum? I have a dry
basement/storage/winter workshop area and I can see a couple of years
ahead of building and assembly. I plan of painting my ch 701 and had
thought of simply applying primer after each completed part.
Thanks.....Ben
do not archive
Message 15
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Noel I agree... this is for the Canadain guys wanting to remove there slats
only!
This is a direct quote below from... COPA's -- "COPA Guide to
Amature-Built Aircraft"... in Canada Under - Reviewing The Rules ' CAR STD
507 Appendix C .... The only thing is if Transport Canada's final
inspection and approval was with the Slats on then it looks like they
should be informed otherwise you would be flying illegal and if something
should happen... that's where insurance companies will get a little excited
about!
Design Changes
Many builders of amateur-built aircraft incorporate changes in the aircraft
they are building, whether the aircraft is being built from kits or plans.
One of the great advantages of the amateur-built category is that this is
allowed. It is up to builder to decide whether the changes are warranted
and how they will be carried out.
Both the CARs and the courts have been clear that when the aircraft is
completed it is the builder who is responsible for the airworthiness of the
aircraft, not the original designer or the manufacturer of the kit from
which it was constructed. This is a good thing as it allows the builder to
make changes, but it carries with it the responsibility to do a good job in
making changes to a design. Ensure you know what you are doing as you will
be solely and legally responsible for the outcome!
If you are not confident in your abilities as a designer then get
professional help from the original designer or an aeronautical engineer.
Otherwise don=92t make the changes to the design, especially when they
involve changes to the structure.
There should be no confusion where the responsibilities are before the build
and after the build after reading the above... the key word's are "Ensure
you know what you are doing"
Ron Leclerc
Winnipeg,MB
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:58:29 -0330, Noel Loveys wrote:
>-Mark:
>-I don=92t' think you would have problems removing the slats to get
>-the plane passed the MD-RA--I've seen greater design changes made
>-to aircraft that passed.--Remember the paper work on W&B needs to
>-reflect the airplane without the slats.--The configuration is
>-almost considered normal in other countries with no known problems
>-and some of those countries have a relatively similar level of
>-legislation controlling aircraft authority for flight.--Now if the
>-701's with the slats off were falling like flies in the Raid
>-factory you would no doubt have problems.-
>-You are dead right on one point and that has to do with anyone
>-wanting to register their plane AULA.--No changes from the letter
>-of conformity are allowed.--If the plans call for a placard against
>-chewing gum it better be there.--I'll bet you are right on the
>-insurance issue of calling it a CH701 too but there wouldn't be
>-anything wrong with a JD701 (John Doe 701)
>-On the use of VGs These little devices are used on all kinds of
>-certified aircraft.--Their placement is usually determined by wind
>-tunnel testing.--Their effectiveness when properly installed is
>-proven.--The operative words are, "properly installed".-
>-Considering that no one here will be hitting mach 1 I would think
>-that if someone installed the VGs and did the appropriate envelope
>-testing at altitude their use should be safe=85 A word of caution,
>-the handy man's secret weapon will probably shoot down your plane.
>-My question still stands:--the CH701 is noted for poor glide ratio=85
>-does removing the slats improve the glide ratio.
>-Noel
>
>
>>------Original Message-----
>>-From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>>-[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>-ZodieRocket Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:07 AM To: zenith-
>>-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: vg's
>>
>>
>>--->-Zenith-List message posted by: "ZodieRocket"
>>-<zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
>>
>>
>>-OK, will do! It doesn't matter if the plane fly's better with the
>>-slats
>>-or without. But in America and Canada lets just see how fast the
>>-insurance companies bail on your ass for removing a flying
>>-surface that
>>-the designer says should be there. Regardless of any situation
>>-that may
>>-involve the NTSB removal of the slats called forth by the
>>-designer would
>>-be written in as a contributing factor( likely even if you ran
>>-out of gas), in which the builder removed before flight and once
>>-again have fun
>>-with AVEMCO or any other insurance dealer. Also since you have
>>-experimented and removed the slats the designer called for then
>>-you have
>>-made a structural change and can no longer call it a 701, once
>>-again enjoy your insurance company when you tell them this is a
>>-one off. If you're Canadian, I doubt your 701 would pass an
>>-inspection for the MD-RA
>>-to get it's flight authority and if you register as an AULA you
>>-are not allowed to remove anything from the plans.
>>
>>-I can't comment on the pro's of VG's, I know a lot of people have
>>-made money selling them. I also know that until the designer
>>-states that the
>>-design requires VG's they will never see my plane.
>>
>>-As for reported testing having been done. I don't dispute there
>>-figures
>>-but I do caution most to consider this. I have a 701 close to me
>>-that cruises at 85mph, and another with the same engine that
>>-cruises at 105 at the same power setting. Difference is that the
>>-builder of the second
>>-701 streamlined the struts, cleaned up the cowling, adjusted so
>>-that the
>>-stabilizer is on correctly with flight checks. There were no
>>-major modifications just common sense clean up and he is cruising
>>-his 701 at 5
>>-MPH below the Vne! The Recreational Flyer magazine article that
>>-shows this comparison is on the Zenith website.
>>
>>-Personal outlook only. You can add whatever you want to your 701,
>>-remove
>>-what you want from your 701, and believe in anything you want!
>>-But I will not be removing my slats! I do not plan on cruising
>>-ANY plane at or
>>-near Vne. I'm quite happy with a 701 that can cruise at 95mph
>>-with a Rotax 912S I believe that this is well within reach of
>>-anyone who has built a straight 701 and will now spend the time
>>-to clean it up. You want an instant 5mph in your 701? Call Zenith
>>-and order the new FWF. As
>>-a bonus your fuselage will be quieter from the less vibration
>>-passed on
>>-by the new engine mount. Another 5mph can be gained by taking a
>>-piece of
>>-.016 and wrapping your struts into a streamline airfoil. I'm not
>>-going to risk an insurance company telling me that I don't have
>>-coverage after
>>-I hit a deer on the runway when the NTSB states that I have
>>-removed a portion of flying surface!
>>
>>-You folks that have gone through all the hassle of removing the
>>-slats and adding Vg's good for you, your courage deserves
>>-applause. But when it comes to the 701 if the owner is not
>>-getting over 75mph cruise with a
>>-912, then they need to spend time fixing what they have wrong,
>>-not throw
>>-parts away! ( well maybe the prop) For those who have a 701
>>-flying at 100mph cruise or higher, why would you want to be that
>>-close to Vne all the time?
>>
>>-Mark Townsend--Alma, Ontario
>>-Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
>>-www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original
>>-Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>>-[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>-secatur Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 6:09 AM To: zenith-
>>-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: vg's
>>
>>--->-Zenith-List message posted by: "secatur"
>>-<appraise1@bigpond.com>
>>
>>-Well, I guess I'll just have to change my mind and build the
>>-slats and throw these VG's away !
>>-1700+ hours of independant, documented testing WITHOUT 1 negative
>>-report ain't gonna convince me!
>>-And when my 701 is finished I will park it right next to my
>>-Wright Flyer, and my Model T ford (Black of course!) right under
>>-the big sign that says "EXPERIMENTAL..do not change or alter
>>-ever...or else!!"
>>
>>-ps: Can somebody please post some BAD results with VG's instead
>>-of Slats .... so I can feel justified??
>>
>>-Wowie Zowie !
>>
>>
>>-Read this topic online here:
>>
>>-http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p961#80961
>>
>>
>>---
>>-12/11/2006
>>
>>
>>---
>>-12/11/2006
>>
>>
>>---
>>-12/11/2006
>>
>>
>>-==========
>>
>>-This Month --
>>-Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
>>
>>-on
>>-about
>>-provided
>>
>>-HREF="file://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>>-HREF="file://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>>-HREF="file://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
>>-HREF="file://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
>>
>>-HREF="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
>>-contribution
>>
>>
>>-bsp;-------------------Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>
>>-==========
>>-Zenith-List Email Forum - the Matronics List Features Navigator
>>-to browse many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,
>>-Archive Search &-Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare,
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</head><BODY BGCOLOR="#F0F0F0" ><div><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;">Noel I
agree... this is for the Canadain guys wanting to remove there slats
only!</SPAN></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin-top:0.07in;"><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;">This is a
direct quote below  from...  COPA's  -- "COPA  Guide to
Amature-Built Aircraft"... in Canada Under - </SPAN><SPAN
style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:12pt;"><A
name="Reviewing">Reviewing The Rules ' CAR STD 507 Appendix C</A> .... The
only thing is if Transport Canada's  final inspection and approval was
with the<U><B> Slats on </B></U>then it looks like they should be informed
otherwise you would be flying illegal and if something should happen...
that's where insurance companies will get a little excited
about!</SPAN></div>
<div style="margin-top:0.07in;"><SPAN style="font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:12pt;"><A name="Changes"><B>Design
Changes</B></A></SPAN></div>
<div style="margin-top:0.07in;"><SPAN style="font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:12pt;">Many builders of amateur-built aircraft incorporate
changes in the aircraft they are building, whether the aircraft is being
built from kits or plans. One of the great advantages of the amateur-built
category is that this is allowed. It is up to builder to decide whether the
changes are warranted and how they will be carried out.</SPAN></div>
<div style="margin-top:0.07in;"><SPAN style="font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:12pt;">Both the CARs and the courts have been clear that
when the aircraft is completed <U><I><B>it is the builder who is
responsible</B></I></U> for the airworthiness of the aircraft, <U><I><B>not
the original designer or the manufacturer of the kit</B></I></U> from which
it was constructed. This is a good thing as it allows the builder to make
changes, but it carries with it the responsibility to do a good job in
making changes to a design. Ensure you know what you are doing as you will
be solely and legally responsible for the outcome! </SPAN></div>
<div style="margin-top:0.07in;"><SPAN style="font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:12pt;">If you are not confident in your abilities as a
designer then get professional help from the original designer or an
aeronautical engineer. Otherwise don=92t make the changes to the design,
especially when they involve changes to the structure.</SPAN></div>
<div><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;">There should be no confusion where the
responsibilities are before the build and after the build after reading the
above... the key word's are  <B>"</B></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:12pt;">Ensure you know what
you are doing"</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"> </SPAN></div>
<div> </div>
<div><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;">Ron Leclerc</SPAN></div>
<div><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;">Winnipeg,MB<br /><br />On Tue, 12 Dec 2006
21:58:29 -0330, Noel Loveys wrote:<br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-Mark:</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-I don=92t' think you would have
problems removing the slats to get</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-the plane passed the
MD-RA--I've seen greater design changes made</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-to aircraft that passed.--Remember
the paper work on W&B needs to</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-reflect the airplane
without the slats.--The configuration is</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-almost considered normal in other
countries with no known problems</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-and some of those
countries have a relatively similar level of</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-legislation controlling aircraft
authority for flight.--Now if the</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-701's with the slats
off were falling like flies in the Raid</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-factory you would no doubt have
problems.-</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-You are dead right on one point and
that has to do with anyone</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-wanting to register
their plane AULA.--No changes from the letter</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-of conformity are allowed.--If the
plans call for a placard against</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-chewing gum it better
be there.--I'll bet you are right on the</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-insurance issue of calling it a
CH701 too but there wouldn't be</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-anything wrong with a
JD701 (John Doe 701)</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-On the use of VGs These little
devices are used on all kinds of</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-certified
aircraft.--Their placement is usually determined by wind</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-tunnel testing.--Their effectiveness
when properly installed is</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-proven.--The
operative words are, "properly installed".-</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-Considering that no one here will be
hitting mach 1 I would think</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-that if someone
installed the VGs and did the appropriate envelope</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-testing at altitude their use should
be safe=85 A word of caution,</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-the handy man's
secret weapon will probably shoot down your plane.</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-My question still stands:--the CH701
is noted for poor glide ratio=85</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-does removing the
slats improve the glide ratio.</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">>-Noel</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:navy;">></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>------Original
Message-----</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-From:
owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-[<a
href="mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]">mailto:owner-zenith-l
ist-server@matronics.com]</a> On Behalf Of</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-ZodieRocket Sent: Tuesday,
December 12, 2006 10:07 AM To: zenith-</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-list@matronics.com Subject:
Zenith-List: Re: vg's</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>--->-Zenith-List message
posted by: "ZodieRocket"</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-<zodierocket@hsfx.ca></S
PAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-OK, will do! It doesn't matter
if the plane fly's better with the</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-slats</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-or without. But in America and
Canada lets just see how fast the</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-insurance
companies bail on your ass for removing a flying</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-surface that</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-the designer says should be
there. Regardless of any situation</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-that
may</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-involve the NTSB removal of
the slats called forth by the</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-designer
would</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-be written in as a
contributing factor( likely even if you ran</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-out of gas), in which the
builder removed before flight and once</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-again have fun</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-with AVEMCO or any other
insurance dealer. Also since you have</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-experimented and removed the
slats the designer called for then</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-you
have</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-made a structural change and
can no longer call it a 701, once</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-again enjoy
your insurance company when you tell them this is a</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-one off. If you're Canadian, I
doubt your 701 would pass an</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-inspection for
the MD-RA</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-to get it's flight authority
and if you register as an AULA you</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-are not allowed
to remove anything from the plans.</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-I can't comment on the pro's
of VG's, I know a lot of people have</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-made money
selling them. I also know that until the designer</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-states that the</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-design requires VG's they will
never see my plane.</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-As for reported testing having
been done. I don't dispute there</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-figures</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-but I do caution most to
consider this. I have a 701 close to me</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-that cruises at 85mph, and
another with the same engine that</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-cruises at 105
at the same power setting. Difference is that the</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-builder of the
second</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-701 streamlined the struts,
cleaned up the cowling, adjusted so</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-that
the</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-stabilizer is on correctly
with flight checks. There were no</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-major
modifications just common sense clean up and he is cruising</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-his 701 at 5</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-MPH below the Vne! The
Recreational Flyer magazine article that</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-shows this comparison is on
the Zenith website.</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Personal outlook only. You can
add whatever you want to your 701,</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-remove</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-what you want from your 701,
and believe in anything you want!</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-But I will not
be removing my slats! I do not plan on cruising</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-ANY plane at or</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-near Vne. I'm quite happy with
a 701 that can cruise at 95mph</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-with a Rotax
912S I believe that this is well within reach of</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-anyone who has built a
straight 701 and will now spend the time</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-to clean it up. You want an
instant 5mph in your 701? Call Zenith</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-and order the new FWF.
As</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-a bonus your fuselage will be
quieter from the less vibration</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-passed
on</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-by the new engine mount.
Another 5mph can be gained by taking a</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-piece of</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-.016 and wrapping your struts
into a streamline airfoil. I'm not</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-going to risk
an insurance company telling me that I don't have</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-coverage after</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-I hit a deer on the runway
when the NTSB states that I have</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-removed a
portion of flying surface!</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-You folks that have gone
through all the hassle of removing the</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-slats and adding Vg's good for
you, your courage deserves</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-applause. But
when it comes to the 701 if the owner is not</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-getting over 75mph cruise with
a</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-912, then they need to spend
time fixing what they have wrong,</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-not
throw</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-parts away! ( well maybe the
prop) For those who have a 701</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-flying at
100mph cruise or higher, why would you want to be that</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-close to Vne all the
time?</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Mark Townsend--Alma,
Ontario</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701
just started</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com
/ www.Osprey2.com -----Original</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-[<a
href="mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]">mailto:owner-zenith-l
ist-server@matronics.com]</a> On Behalf Of</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-secatur Sent: Tuesday,
December 12, 2006 6:09 AM To: zenith-</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-list@matronics.com Subject:
Zenith-List: Re: vg's</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>--->-Zenith-List message
posted by: "secatur"</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-<appraise1@bigpond.com><
/SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Well, I guess I'll just have
to change my mind and build the</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-slats and throw
these VG's away !</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-1700+ hours of independant,
documented testing WITHOUT 1 negative</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-report ain't gonna convince
me!</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-And when my 701 is finished I
will park it right next to my</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Wright Flyer,
and my Model T ford (Black of course!) right under</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-the big sign that says
"EXPERIMENTAL..do not change or alter</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-ever...or else!!"</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-ps: Can somebody please post
some BAD results with VG's instead</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-of Slats ....
so I can feel justified??</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Read this topic online
here:</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-<a
href="http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p961#80961">http://forum
s.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p961#80961</a></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>---</SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>---</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-12/11/2006</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>---</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-12/11/2006</SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-===========</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-This Month --</SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-on</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-about</SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-provided</SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-HREF="file://www.aeroelectric.
com">www.aeroelectric.com</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br
/></SPAN><SPAN
style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-HREF="file://www.buildersbooks
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/></SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
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Dralle, List Admin.</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Zenith-List Email Forum - the
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/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-Fund Raiser.
style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
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/></SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-->-<a
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style="font-size:9pt;"><br /></SPAN><SPAN
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style="font-size:9pt;color:maroon;">>>-<a
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.
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==============================</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size:9pt;"><br /><br
/></SPAN></div>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away! |
I agree with your opinion Steeve. Only good sense.
Christian Tremblay
A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan
http://www.zodiac640.com/
-----Message d'origine-----
De: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de steveadams
Envoy: Friday, December 15, 2006 8:03 AM
: zenith-list@matronics.com
Objet: Zenith-List: Re: For 701 builders ONLY - everyone else - look away!
Impressive credentials Larry. I'm sure the aircraft you build are impecable
and the builders lucky enough to have your guidance benefit greatly and are
quite lucky. Unfortunately many of us do not have the same knowledge and
experience as you, and often times get conflicting "expert advise" without a
definite knowledge of which source is more credible. Not to say that Chris
is perfect, his designs are perfect, or that the construction manuals are
perfect. However, I don't think anyone could question his knowledge of
aircraft design and track record as a designer. As you said, there is
absolutely nothing that can't be improved. Unfortunately, I have read of too
many "improvements" made by well meaning, but misguided, builders that have
ended in crumpled aluminum and worse. I'm sure there are many builders with
knowledge and experience similar to your own who make many viable
improvements to the original designs, construction methods, and materials.
However, the beauty of Expe!
rimental aircraft and the currently available kits is that virtually
anyone, regardless of experience or prior knowledge, can build a safe,
economical, well designed and performing aircraft. Most of us are not
experts. As such, the best way for us to safely build an aircraft is to look
to the designer of the aircraft as the defacto expert in constructing his
design. It may not result in a perfect airplane, but in doing it this way,
it will also not result in fatally flawed final product. Wave the
"experimental" banner, do whatever you think will make your airplane better,
but don't berate those of us in this simply for the joy of building a
proven, safe, fun, well designed airplane the way it was designed.
Steve Adams
CH640
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81699#81699
Message 17
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I was looking for an interior primer sealer for where the parts contact each other
and for under/around the rivets. Something that won't come off later with
Corrosion X. I am not convinced self etching pirmers are good sealers since they
are porous and may collect moisture. Not sure about Cortec or similar primers.
And I don't want to deal with things like Alodine since part of the plane
will be built in my spare bedroom.
I'll try some engine paint on a test sheet and see how they hold up. They have
been sticking good on my aluminum water pump so far.
Thanx.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81813#81813
Message 18
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John Gilpin <vgstol@bigpond.net.au> wrote: I don't know an answer to that
Bob. I see no reason at all to get into a spin situation, or even a full stall,
at least in these ZAC machines - they're so docile and give so much warning
if you practice 'tickling' the stall and learn the feeling.
But I do note that CCI, a long time supplier of vortex generators, tells of equiping
a Pitts with them - the landings improved muchly, but he couldn't do
snap rolls any more! I don't know if that relates to spins....
JG
----- Original Message -----
From: MaxNr@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:33 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Re: VG's
Question: Would VG's make the plane more resistant to spins?
Bob D
601XL rudder/eng mt
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
__________________________________________________
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re:Storage of components |
It depends on location. Some of us live close to salt water and/or have
average 75% relative humidity. With that much moisture availabe in the
air and the aluminum changing temperature repeatedly, there is plenty of
opportunity for the bare aluminum to frequently have a wet surface.
Other locales are more fortunate, I'm sure.
Ed Moody II
Rayne, LA
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Gustafson
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Storage of components
I just took the tail parts of my 601 out of storage in my garage attic
after 8 years with no protection at all and except for needing to wash
off the dust and mouse /flying squirrel crap they are just fine. If they
don't get wet why should they need other protection?
Aaron Gustafson do not archive
Message 20
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I am just getting ready to start building my 601XL. Anybody that has
finished theirs interested in selling their tools?
Do not archive
Dennis
dwieck@bellsouth.net
Message 21
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| Subject: | Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? |
What are you guys using to pull the Stainless Steel rivets...?
The pneumatic riveter that comes with the tool kit says to not use it on Stainless
Steel rivets. The instructions even show a picture of a broken rivet gun.
The hand riveter doesn't have enough "bite" to grip and pull on them beyond setting
them (it works fine on regular A4 & A5 rivets, so I know it's not broken).
What *really* works on these things...? What have others actually done here...?
Right now I've got an elevator horn attached with a couple of stainless steel "nails"
sticking out of it... :(
Thanks,
- PatrickW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81826#81826
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 and CH701 safety, accident info requested |
I suppose if you were interested in how safe the 601 airframe is, then you'd be
looking for structural issues (like the rest of us). Until most recently, there
has been no real question or issue in regard to the structure of the 601. The
few recent open investigations are of interest to us all, but we'll have to
wait for the final outcome of the investigations before we can make any conclusions
about structure.
I don't know that counting the sure number of accidents to number of flying is
going to tell you much of value either. If there were patterns, then that would
catch our attention ... but I've not been able to find any related patterns
or any incidents that are any more usual than that occurring in other low-wing
aircraft.
The relatively small numbers of 601 aircraft make it difficult to find patterns.
Cessna 172s, for example, are more prone to landing bounce, especially with
new pilots. But there are a huge number of 172 flying and therefore patterns are
easier to spot.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81828#81828
Message 23
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| Subject: | Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? |
I managed to pull mine with a hand riveter, but it certainly puts maximum
strain on both it and the operator.
Robin in AR
601XL Tri-gear Zen-Vair N601ZV
----- Original Message -----
From: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets?
>
> What are you guys using to pull the Stainless Steel rivets...?
>
> The pneumatic riveter that comes with the tool kit says to not use it on
> Stainless Steel rivets. The instructions even show a picture of a broken
> rivet gun.
>
> The hand riveter doesn't have enough "bite" to grip and pull on them
> beyond setting them (it works fine on regular A4 & A5 rivets, so I know
> it's not broken).
>
> What *really* works on these things...? What have others actually done
> here...?
>
> Right now I've got an elevator horn attached with a couple of stainless
> steel "nails" sticking out of it... :(
>
> Thanks,
>
> - PatrickW
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? |
Patrick, I also found the stainless steel rivets hard to pull. However, I bought
a puller at Ace Hardware with a swiveling head ("Ace" brand) that I have used
a lot more than the puller from ZAC. It was still a tough squeeze, but it
worked. You will have to grind the nose pieces to make the domed heads on the
rivets, but that is not a major job. Just heat them cherry red and when they
are cooled, shape them with a Dremel tool.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
"PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>What are you guys using to pull the Stainless Steel rivets...?
>
>The pneumatic riveter that comes with the tool kit says to not use it on Stainless
Steel rivets. The instructions even show a picture of a broken rivet gun.
>
>The hand riveter doesn't have enough "bite" to grip and pull on them beyond setting
them (it works fine on regular A4 & A5 rivets, so I know it's not broken).
>
>What *really* works on these things...? What have others actually done here...?
>
>Right now I've got an elevator horn attached with a couple of stainless steel
"nails" sticking out of it... :(
>
>Thanks,
>
>- PatrickW
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81826#81826
>
>
Message 25
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Get a can of Zinc Chromate and a brush. Look inside the wing of an older
plane that was primed. They don't usually have much if any corrosion.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddie G." <silentlight@verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 3:39 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: POR 15
>
> I was looking for an interior primer sealer for where the parts contact
> each other and for under/around the rivets. Something that won't come off
> later with Corrosion X. I am not convinced self etching pirmers are good
> sealers since they are porous and may collect moisture. Not sure about
> Cortec or similar primers. And I don't want to deal with things like
> Alodine since part of the plane will be built in my spare bedroom.
>
> I'll try some engine paint on a test sheet and see how they hold up. They
> have been sticking good on my aluminum water pump so far.
>
> Thanx.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81813#81813
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? |
You should not have to heat the mandrels before grinding with a Dremel (or
any other grinding tool). Heat is only required if you machine them. But
better yet, just unscrew the mandrels from the air riveter and screw them
into the hand riveter, most are interchangeable. Hand riveting SS rivets
does require a bit better tool than the cheapo tool, though and the swivel
head tool does work reasonably well.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Jaybannist@cs.com
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 8:24 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets?
>
>
> Patrick, I also found the stainless steel rivets hard to
> pull. However, I bought a puller at Ace Hardware with a
> swiveling head ("Ace" brand) that I have used a lot more than
> the puller from ZAC. It was still a tough squeeze, but it
> worked. You will have to grind the nose pieces to make the
> domed heads on the rivets, but that is not a major job. Just
> heat them cherry red and when they are cooled, shape them
> with a Dremel tool.
>
> Jay in Dallas
> Do not archive
>
> "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >What are you guys using to pull the Stainless Steel rivets...?
> >
--
10:02 AM
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Pulling Stainless Steel Rivets? |
I literally had to stand on my hand riveter to pull the A5's.
It did keep working for awhile. I wore out 2 hand riveters.
I did pull all my rivets by hand.
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
CH601XL, 410 hours
Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x49 wood prop
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, PatrickW wrote:
> What are you guys using to pull the Stainless Steel rivets...?
> .........snip
> Thanks, - PatrickW
do not archive
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