Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Headsets.. (C Smith)
2. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Headsets.. (Tim Shankland)
3. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Headsets.. (C Smith)
4. 09:25 AM - Lightening hole flange length (Ryan Vechinski)
5. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Headsets.. (Craig Payne)
6. 10:23 AM - I give up! (Bill Naumuk)
7. 11:52 AM - Re: Re:701 Engine Decision (Roland Smith)
8. 01:29 PM - Re: Lightening hole flange length (TxDave)
9. 01:53 PM - Fuselage Gussets (Wade Jones)
10. 02:26 PM - Re: Fuselage Gussets (Bill Naumuk)
11. 02:44 PM - Re: Fuselage Gussets (LHusky@aol.com)
12. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: Lightening hole flange length (David Downey)
13. 02:56 PM - Re: Fuselage Gussets (Jaybannist@cs.com)
14. 03:27 PM - Re: Re:701 Engine Decision (Roger Venables)
15. 03:41 PM - Re: Fuselage Gussets (Robin Bellach)
16. 04:45 PM - Re: Fuselage Gussets (Bill Naumuk)
17. 05:34 PM - Re: Fuselage Gussets (Jaybannist@cs.com)
18. 07:12 PM - Re: Fuselage Gussets (David Austin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Headsets.. |
People please keep in mind that all "active" noise reduction circuits are
not equal. Bose uses digital signal processing technology with proprietary
algorithms. The stuff from Headsets Inc I believe uses an analog circuit
along with some filtering and phase shift, then there are the ones that
simply use a "noise generator" that puts out a simulation of most common
noise signature and sums that out of phase with the ambient noise. There are
the passive head sets that have the amplifier set to cut out loud noises
commonly seen at shooting ranges.
There are many ways to skin the cat, some are patented (Bose)(Sony), some
are simple, but limited in effect. So be careful when you start spending
money assuming that what you are getting can be popped into your aviation
headset. I'm sure the people at Headsets inc did a lot of development before
marketing their product, and only God knows how much Bose spent. While
simple in principle, feed-forward noise cancellation can be a tricky
function to tackle effectively. See what documentation says about their
method before you buy.
Tim, did you have a pair of Bose headsets when you did your comparison?
CS
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Shankland
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronic Headsets..
That might explain the ones at Harbor Freight, but the $10.00 ones I bought
actually reduce the noise. Another engineer where I work demonstrated them
to me before I bought them. We stood at a place in the plant that had a
noticeable air handler noise, probably in the ceiling above us, I put on the
headsets first with the noise canceling turn off, no change, then I turned
it on just like those $1000, Bose headsets the background noise fade away.
Tim Shankland
VideoFlyer@aol.com wrote:
<<<<<These electronic headsets are not noise cancelling, they simply cut out
the noise when it exceeds a certain level. There is a microphone on the
outside of the earmuff and small speakers inside. When the noise level is
exceeded, the circuitry cuts out the mic and they act like an normal ear
muff>>>>>
Ah...that explains it! Thanks for your explanation. Interesting
idea...not sure if it would work well in an airplane, though.
Thanks, John.
Dave
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Headsets.. |
CS
I did not have a set of Bose with me but I had tried them up as OSH and
although I cannot make a one for one comparison there operation sounded
similar. The point is that I think there is a market for inexpensive
noise reduction, the fact that the ones I have don't work as good as the
Bose has to be considered with the factor that that the Bose is 2 orders
of magnitude more expensive. I use a passive headset in my Zodiac and it
works well but it would pay another $20-$30 for another 5 db of noise
reduction, but the active noise canceling units available for aircraft
are way past my pain point for cost.
Tim Shankland
C Smith wrote:
> People please keep in mind that all "active" noise reduction circuits
> are not equal. Bose uses digital signal processing technology with
> proprietary algorithms. The stuff from Headsets Inc I believe uses an
> analog circuit along with some filtering and phase shift, then there
> are the ones that simply use a "noise generator" that puts out a
> simulation of most common noise signature and sums that out of phase
> with the ambient noise. There are the passive head sets that have the
> amplifier set to cut out loud noises commonly seen at shooting ranges.
>
> There are many ways to skin the cat, some are patented (Bose)(Sony),
> some are simple, but limited in effect. So be careful when you start
> spending money assuming that what you are getting can be popped into
> your aviation headset. I'm sure the people at Headsets inc did a lot
> of development before marketing their product, and only God knows how
> much Bose spent. While simple in principle, feed-forward noise
> cancellation can be a tricky function to tackle effectively. See what
> documentation says about their method before you buy.
>
> Tim, did you have a pair of Bose headsets when you did your comparison?
>
> CS
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Shankland
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:00 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronic Headsets..
>
>
>
> That might explain the ones at Harbor Freight, but the $10.00 ones I
> bought actually reduce the noise. Another engineer where I work
> demonstrated them to me before I bought them. We stood at a place in
> the plant that had a noticeable air handler noise, probably in the
> ceiling above us, I put on the headsets first with the noise canceling
> turn off, no change, then I turned it on just like those $1000, Bose
> headsets the background noise fade away.
>
> Tim Shankland
>
> VideoFlyer@aol.com <mailto:VideoFlyer@aol.com> wrote:
>
> <<<<<These electronic headsets are not noise cancelling, they simply
> cut out the noise when it exceeds a certain level. There is a
> microphone on the outside of the earmuff and small speakers inside.
> When the noise level is exceeded, the circuitry cuts out the mic and
> they act like an normal ear muff>>>>>
>
>
>
> Ah...that explains it! Thanks for your explanation. Interesting
> idea...not sure if it would work well in an airplane, though.
>
>
>
> Thanks, John.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Headsets.. |
One last note on noise reduction. Can't remember if it was an avweb, aopa or
direct from the FAA, but I recall reading somewhere in the last 2 weeks that
the FAA has published a cautionary message about certain unnamed active
noise reduction systems may cover up noise that you may WANT to hear.
Abnormal engine or airframe noise may be an early warning to impending
failures. Therefore they said that it is up to the user of the equipment to
understand how the stuff works, and how it may interfere with hearing
abnormal conditions in your aircraft. I'll try to dig up the original and
forward it to the group.
Tim, I have been looking for a cheap alternative to active noise reduction
for literally decades. I simply didn't have the money to take it up as a
workbench project. It is those costs of development that the marketers of
those products are trying to recoup. Best of luck in your search.
CS
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Shankland
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Electronic Headsets..
CS
I did not have a set of Bose with me but I had tried them up as OSH and
although I cannot make a one for one comparison there operation sounded
similar. The point is that I think there is a market for inexpensive noise
reduction, the fact that the ones I have don't work as good as the Bose has
to be considered with the factor that that the Bose is 2 orders of magnitude
more expensive. I use a passive headset in my Zodiac and it works well but
it would pay another $20-$30 for another 5 db of noise reduction, but the
active noise canceling units available for aircraft are way past my pain
point for cost.
Tim Shankland
Message 4
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| Subject: | Lightening hole flange length |
Is there a rule of thumb to use for the length of the flange when flanging lightening
holes? I can't seem to find it specified anywhere in the drawings. I'm
thinking about using 15mm.
Ryan Vechinski
CH-701 -> starting on wings
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Headsets.. |
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/retrofit_kit.php>
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/retrofit_kit.php
http://www.headsetsinc.com/anr_upgrade.htm
http://www.headsetsinc.com/customer_reviews.htm
"AVweb's publisher recently retrofitted his old David Clark headset with a
$169.00 active noise reduction (ANR) kit from Headsets, Inc., and then
test-flew the modified headset in three different piston aircraft. He found
installation straightforward for anyone not intimidated by a soldering iron.
How'd the DC headset perform after the ANR retrofit? It won't match the
comfort or sound quality of a Bose or LightSPEED, but there was a huge
improvement in low-frequency noise attenuation. Final verdict: the mod kit
is definitely worth the cost."
(http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182561-1.html)
And for a non-electronic solution: http://www.oregonaero.com/p5859_2001.html
-- Craig
Message 6
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All-
After snagging and kinking by fuse side skins innumerable times with
a rotary polisher, I decided to quit pre-polishing. I've done more
damage to my skins trying to polish them (Even though they've been held
down every 1' or so) than I would have ever done otherwise. I'm going to
go ahead and assemble the fuse.
1. An orbital polisher is no hassle, but no matter how careful you
are, you'll snag an edge with a rotary. You don't have a choice- it'll
take you forever to polish with an orbital.
2. I still recommend polishing underside components before
assembly.It's too much hassle after assembly to get on your back and try
to polish up-hand.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuselage
Townville, Pa
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re:701 Engine Decision |
For those considering a Rotax 912, note that there are workshops in
Sebring, Florida, associated with Lockwood. Address below. I'm going
to the next one, February 8 and 9. Expect to order my 912ULS then,
too. Hope to see some friends from the Zenith List.
http://www.aerotechnicalinstitute.com/
Roland Smith, Bennington, Vermont, 701AA ( reserved )
Mating rear fuselage, cabin and firewall.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Lightening hole flange length |
Hey Ryan,
On page 17 of the ZAC construction manual for the 601 it shows the flange depth
(note I said depth) should be 8mm. Looking at my wing ribs I'm pretty close to
that.
DISCLAIMER FOR FLAMERS: THE 8MM FIGURE IS PER ZAC FLANGING DIE SPECS AND IS NOT
BASED ON MY PERSONAL OPINION.
Dave Clay
www.daves601xl.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89138#89138
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fuselage Gussets |
Hello group ,while reading the different sites I see mention of several
gussets in the rear fuselage .Have the plans been revised to exclude
these or am I not seeing them in my plans interpretations . Plans Dated
03/06
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Gussets |
Wade-
Probably apples and oranges, but I'm right at that stage now. HDS
plans call for gussets at the top of the fuse sides, aligned with the L
angle stiffeners.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuselage
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Wade Jones
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
Hello group ,while reading the different sites I see mention of
several gussets in the rear fuselage .Have the plans been revised to
exclude these or am I not seeing them in my plans interpretations .
Plans Dated 03/06
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Gussets |
My plans also do not call for the gussets. I think with the .025 skin on
the newer planes, they do not need the gussets like the .016 skins did. I have
pictures of the QBK planes and they do not have the gussets. My plans are
dated early in 06 also.
Larry Husky
Do Not Archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Lightening hole flange length |
Also not set in stone but most of the production aircraft I have worked on have
flanges about 1/4" wide around the lightning holes and the flange angle is usually
between 30 and 45 from the web plane...
Hey Ryan,
On page 17 of the ZAC construction manual for the 601 it shows the flange depth
(note I said depth) should be 8mm. Looking at my wing ribs I'm pretty close to
that.
DISCLAIMER FOR FLAMERS: THE 8MM FIGURE IS PER ZAC FLANGING DIE SPECS AND IS NOT
BASED ON MY PERSONAL OPINION.
Dave Clay
www.daves601xl.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89138#89138
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Gussets |
Wade,
I started building my XL in December of 2005 and there were no rear fuselage gussets
called for in my plans. I think that the gussets were necessary when the
fuselage skins were .016". The side and bottom skins have been changed to .025",
eliminating the need for gussets.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wade Jones
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:52 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
>
>
> Hello group ,while reading the different sites I see mention of several gussets
in the rear fuselage .Have the plans been revised to exclude these or am I
not seeing them in my plans interpretations . Plans Dated 03/06
> Wade Jones South Texas
> 601XL plans building
> Cont. 0200
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re:701 Engine Decision |
Roland
You will r4eally enjoy it. Please give my regards to Dean who does the
instruction
Roger Venables
Kenmore, WA CH701
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roland Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:701 Engine Decision
For those considering a Rotax 912, note that there are workshops in Sebring,
Florida, associated with Lockwood. Address below. I'm going to the next
one, February 8 and 9. Expect to order my 912ULS then, too. Hope to see
some friends from the Zenith List.
http://www.aerotechnicalinstitute.com/
Roland Smith, Bennington, Vermont, 701AA ( reserved )
Mating rear fuselage, cabin and firewall.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Gussets |
My plans of 04/06/04 have the gussets.
----- Original Message -----
From: LHusky@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
My plans also do not call for the gussets. I think with the .025 skin
on the newer planes, they do not need the gussets like the .016 skins
did. I have pictures of the QBK planes and they do not have the
gussets. My plans are dated early in 06 also.
Larry Husky
Do Not Archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Gussets |
Wade-
From the list responses, looks like you have to ask Zenith.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuselage
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
Wade-
Probably apples and oranges, but I'm right at that stage now. HDS
plans call for gussets at the top of the fuse sides, aligned with the L
angle stiffeners.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuselage
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Wade Jones
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
Hello group ,while reading the different sites I see mention of
several gussets in the rear fuselage .Have the plans been revised to
exclude these or am I not seeing them in my plans interpretations .
Plans Dated 03/06
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Gussets |
Bill, Wade,
You do NOT have to ask ZAC. They have already spoken - through their drawings
and photo guides. According to this (current) information, an XL requires NO
rear fuselage gussets!
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
"Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>Wade-
> From the list responses, looks like you have to ask Zenith.
> do not archive
>Bill Naumuk
>HDS Fuselage
>Townville, Pa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Naumuk
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
>
>
> Wade-
> Probably apples and oranges, but I'm right at that stage now. HDS plans
call for gussets at the top of the fuse sides, aligned with the L angle stiffeners.
> Bill Naumuk
> HDS Fuselage
> Townville, Pa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wade Jones
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:52 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
>
>
> Hello group ,while reading the different sites I see mention of several gussets
in the rear fuselage .Have the plans been revised to exclude these or am
I not seeing them in my plans interpretations . Plans Dated 03/06
> Wade Jones South Texas
> 601XL plans building
> Cont. 0200
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Gussets |
As an old 601 owner, I found that there were cracks in the 16 thou side
panels (both sides) that I noticed after 13 years. Not only that, but water
had gone in thru the crack on one side and the rivet had turned to alum
oxide. Even with the 25 thou panels, I still suggest that unless the
vertical stiffener is locked to the upper longeron, vibration would do the
same to the 25 thou panel.
JMLO
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jaybannist@cs.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
>
> Bill, Wade,
>
> You do NOT have to ask ZAC. They have already spoken - through their
> drawings and photo guides. According to this (current) information, an XL
> requires NO rear fuselage gussets!
>
> Jay in Dallas
> Do not archive
>
>
> "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>
>>Wade-
>> From the list responses, looks like you have to ask Zenith.
>> do not archive
>>Bill Naumuk
>>HDS Fuselage
>>Townville, Pa
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bill Naumuk
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 5:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
>>
>>
>> Wade-
>> Probably apples and oranges, but I'm right at that stage now. HDS
>> plans call for gussets at the top of the fuse sides, aligned with the L
>> angle stiffeners.
>> Bill Naumuk
>> HDS Fuselage
>> Townville, Pa
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Wade Jones
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:52 PM
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Fuselage Gussets
>>
>>
>> Hello group ,while reading the different sites I see mention of
>> several gussets in the rear fuselage .Have the plans been revised to
>> exclude these or am I not seeing them in my plans interpretations . Plans
>> Dated 03/06
>> Wade Jones South Texas
>> 601XL plans building
>> Cont. 0200
>>
>>
>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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