---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/27/07: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:41 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 03:23 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (Rick R) 3. 05:58 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (Clyde Barcus) 4. 06:06 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (Jim Hoak) 5. 06:26 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (n801bh@netzero.com) 6. 07:05 AM - Cable Rigging (Eric Tingey) 7. 07:06 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 8. 07:53 AM - Re: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS (Bill Naumuk) 9. 08:07 AM - Re: Cable Rigging (John Bolding) 10. 08:35 AM - NOT wing flutter! (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 11. 09:26 AM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter???? (T. Graziano) 12. 09:54 AM - Re: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS (rick tedford) 13. 09:57 AM - Re: NOT wing flutter! (pilot4pay) 14. 10:31 AM - Sun-N-Fun BBQ (ZodieRocket) 15. 10:38 AM - Re: Cable Rigging (Craig Payne) 16. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: NOT wing flutter! (raymondj) 17. 11:37 AM - Re: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS (Craig Payne) 18. 12:19 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun BBQ (Roger Venables) 19. 12:49 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun BBQ (ZodieRocket) 20. 01:12 PM - Re: Cable Rigging (Eric Tingey) 21. 01:26 PM - firewall grounding buss (chris Sinfield) 22. 01:41 PM - Re: firewall grounding buss (Bryan Martin) 23. 01:50 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun BBQ (Bill Naumuk) 24. 02:35 PM - Re: Re: Annual Inspections (Ronnie Koonce) 25. 02:35 PM - Question concerning Flanged Lightening holes sides (Christian Tremblay) 26. 02:47 PM - Does your front bungee cord pin touch the front gear leg? (Craig Payne) 27. 03:31 PM - Re: Does your front bungee cord pin touch the front gear leg? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 28. 03:37 PM - Re: Does your front bungee cord pin touch the front gear leg? (Robin Bellach) 29. 06:33 PM - FBO Marty Turman (Husky Larry J) 30. 09:54 PM - Re: Question concerning Flanged Lightening holes sides (TxDave) 31. 10:44 PM - Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (PatrickW) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:54 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter Hi Bill, That was a truly shocking story. I can't help but connect the dots with your flight and the recent events of XL's falling out of the sky. I wonder if you could answer a couple of questions: 1. Which aileron hinges do you have? 2. Do you have the center stick? 3. Did you build from kit or scratch? If you were actually experiencing flutter, then I would have thought slowing down would be the way out. When you increased speed to stop the vibration, did it occur again as you slowed down? I think I'll take up knitting instead of airplane building . .. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 10:31 PM 1/26/2007, you wrote: >Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow >with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were >perfect, clear, cool and only a slight wind. The only big thing >around much to see nearby is Lake Juliette which has a big coal >fired power station in the middle. Three huge steam towers that look >like a nuclear power station. We flew around the lake about two >miles away at 5000 feet so my pal could get a good look see. On the >down wind side we flew into an invisible killer. We were doing above >140 when we flew into it. Instantly the left wing fluttered at a >fast pitch, aileron and all and it looked to be moving maybe two >inched up and down. I figured a couple seconds would break it off. I >didn't have time to look around the passenger to see if the right >wing was fluttering, but I suspect it was. I chopped power and did a >hard diving wing over to the left and out of it. The flutter sound >was great even over my Lightspeed AN system and the whole thing >probably last maybe 5 or 6 seconds. I regained control out of the >snap dive, maxing above 170 and flew slow and easy back to the field >before I tested the controls. Everything felt okay and I could see >no wrinkles in the top skin so I landed. Didn't really have much >choice. Upon inspection I found no sign of stress, no skin deform, >no paint cracked around rivets, nothing. I will take off all >inspection panels for a close inspection this weekend and check >bolts, controls, etc., but I cannot believe such a prolonged violent >movement of the wing did not damage something other than my pride. >Two things learned. Don't fly anywhere near a power station. Even at >5000 feet and miles away the invisible heat rises and is most >extreme. Maybe intensified in cold weather. The other thing is the >XL is very, very tough. Oh, there is a third thing. How could I have >been so stupid not to know the first thing !! I am interested >though in knowing why the wings fluttered in this thermal? What >theory of air dynamics would cause this extreme reaction? Was is >just the level of heat and speed the invisible air was streaming >past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud again. >Best regards to you all, >Bill of Georgia >N505WP >601XL-3300 --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:17 AM PST US From: Rick R Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter WOW Bill, Thanks for sharing this. That power plant was in the memory bank of my HUD! No more! Glad you and passenger are OK and I hope it wasn't their first flight! Let me know if you need my help with anything INCLUDING laundry. Low & slow...Rick do not archive JAPhillipsGA@aol.com wrote: Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, speed the invisible air was streaming past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud again. Best regards to you all, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300 Rick Sharpsburg, GA. USA http://www.n701rr.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:34 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter I know Chris Heinz is retired but I bet he would be quick to respond to a serious question like this. I suggest you contact ZAC and ask them to get Chris's input, I wouldn't accept their explanation if Chris wasn't involved. Thank God you were able to get out of the situation but that does open up questions about the right response and I think Chris's opinion on this would be helpful as well. I appreciate your posting, all of us can learn something from this. Regards: Clyde Barcus 601 XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick R To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:15 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter WOW Bill, Thanks for sharing this. That power plant was in the memory bank of my HUD! No more! Glad you and passenger are OK and I hope it wasn't their first flight! Let me know if you need my help with anything INCLUDING laundry. Low & slow...Rick do not archive JAPhillipsGA@aol.com wrote: Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, speed the invisible air was streaming past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud again. Best regards to you all, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:36 AM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter Hey Bill, Sounds scary! Glad you are OK. Although it was years ago ( first off I'm NOT a trained test pilot ) I was involved in some actual flutter problems involving a Midget Mustang I built by a friend and latter did flutter tests in a Mustang II built by another friend. When we experienced the flutter with the MM I ( at about 180 mph ) we consulted an old friend who knew Dave Long ( the designer of the MM I ) and picked his brain. One thing he said is if you experience flutter you have mere seconds to SLOW DOWN and the best way to do that is to reduce power and pull the airplane up ( I noticed you dove and increased speed but got out of it ). This procedure helped us with the MM I. What we found with this airplane was an accumulation of built in slop in the aileron control system. This system was all push rods and bellcranks and the builder had just drilled all the holes ( did not ream ) and used AN Standard bolts. I found this quickly by haveing the builder grasp one aileron while I moved the other aileron up and down better than a 1/4" at the trailing edge. Remeber this is a 200 mph plus airplane. We went to NAS and oversized bolts and tightened up the slop. This DIDN'T cure the flutter though. What we found then was that when he filled the counterweight tubes that were mounted forward of the hinge line with lead, he didn't get the tubes full as the lead solidified as he poured it in and left many air spaces inside the tube. We corrected that and the flutter problem went away. Probably both problems contributed to the flutter. In the Mustang II we were doing flutter test in the 225 230 mph range by increasing the speed by 1 mph increments and never had a problem, but we were ready to slow it down if one did arise. I know John from AMD tested for flutter when he did your test flight and he said nothing about it when he landed. You might call him and ask what max speed he uses when testing. Not being an aerodynamicist ( spelling? ) I don't know the cause for your encounter but just maybe it has something to do with the fact that we don't use balanced controls on these Zenith airplanes and a weird air pattern that you encountered because of the heat from the power plant. I've flown over large fires on the ground, as I'm sure you and others have in the past and experienced some pretty rough air but not FLUTTER. In your case, if it was unbalanced controls, it seems that when you dove to 170, it should have made it worse. Do the "grab one aileron and try to move the other test" and see what you find. Otherwise, DON'T fly near the power plant any more! I've been tempted to fly over to that same place but since 9-11 I stay away from all power plants. Let me know if I can help and also what you find. Jim Hoak ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:31 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, clear, cool and only a slight wind. The only big thing around much to see nearby is Lake Juliette which has a big coal fired power station in the middle. Three huge steam towers that look like a nuclear power station. We flew around the lake about two miles away at 5000 feet so my pal could get a good look see. On the down wind side we flew into an invisible killer. We were doing above 140 when we flew into it. Instantly the left wing fluttered at a fast pitch, aileron and all and it looked to be moving maybe two inched up and down. I figured a couple seconds would break it off. I didn't have time to look around the passenger to see if the right wing was fluttering, but I suspect it was. I chopped power and did a hard diving wing over to the left and out of it. The flutter sound was great even over my Lightspeed AN system and the whole thing probably last maybe 5 or 6 seconds. I regained control out of the snap dive, maxing above 170 and flew slow and easy back to the field before I tested the controls. Everything felt okay and I could see no wrinkles in the top skin so I landed. Didn't really have much choice. Upon inspection I found no sign of stress, no skin deform, no paint cracked around rivets, nothing. I will take off all inspection panels for a close inspection this weekend and check bolts, controls, etc., but I cannot believe such a prolonged violent movement of the wing did not damage something other than my pride. Two things learned. Don't fly anywhere near a power station. Even at 5000 feet and miles away the invisible heat rises and is most extreme. Maybe intensified in cold weather. The other thing is the XL is very, very tough. Oh, there is a third thing. How could I have been so stupid not to know the first thing !! I am interested though in knowing why the wings fluttered in this thermal? What theory of air dynamics would cause this extreme reaction? Was is just the level of heat and speed the invisible air was streaming past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud again. Best regards to you all, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:58 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter Control flutter is a function of speed, If I ever encounter it I will pu ll off the power and instantly climb to bleed off excess speed. I am cu rious why you dove and sped up?? do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Jim Hoak" wrote: Hey Bill, Sounds scary! Glad you are OK. Although it was years ago ( fir st off I'm NOT a trained test pilot ) I was involved in some actual flut ter problems involving a Midget Mustang I built by a friend and latter d id flutter tests in a Mustang II built by another friend. When we experi enced the flutter with the MM I ( at about 180 mph ) we consulted an ol d friend who knew Dave Long ( the designer of the MM I ) and picked his brain. One thing he said is if you experience flutter you have mere seco nds to SLOW DOWN and the best way to do that is to reduce power and pull the airplane up ( I noticed you dove and increased speed but got out of it ). This procedure helped us with the MM I. What we found with this a irplane was an accumulation of built in slop in the aileron control syst em. This system was all push rods and bellcranks and the builder had jus t drilled all the holes ( did not ream ) and used AN Standard bolts. I f ound this quickly by haveing the builder grasp one aileron while I moved the other aileron up and down better than a 1/4" at the trailing edge. Remeber this is a 200 mph plus airplane. We went to NAS and oversized bo lts and tightened up the slop. This DIDN'T cure the flutter though. What we found then was that when he filled the counterweight tubes that were mounted forward of the hinge line with lead, he didn't get the tubes fu ll as the lead solidified as he poured it in and left many air spaces in side the tube. We corrected that and the flutter problem went away. Prob ably both problems contributed to the flutter. In the Mustang II we were doing flutter test in the 225 230 mph range by increasing the speed by 1 mph increments and never had a problem, but we were ready to slow it d own if one did arise. I know John from AMD tested for flutter when he di d your test flight and he said nothing about it when he landed. You migh t call him and ask what max speed he uses when testing. Not being an aer odynamicist ( spelling? ) I don't know the cause for your encounter but just maybe it has something to do with the fact that we don't use balanc ed controls on these Zenith airplanes and a weird air pattern that you e ncountered because of the heat from the power plant. I've flown over lar ge fires on the ground, as I'm sure you and others have in the past and experienced some pretty rough air but not FLUTTER. In your case, if it was unbalanced controls, it seems that when you dove to 170, it should h ave made it worse. Do the "grab one aileron and try to move the other te st" and see what you find. Otherwise, DON'T fly near the power plant any more! I've been tempted to fly over to that same place but since 9-11 I stay away from all power plants. Let me know if I can help and also wha t you find. Jim Hoak ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA@aol .com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:31 AMSubject: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, cle ar, cool and only a slight wind. The only big thing around much to see n earby is Lake Juliette which has a big coal fired power station in the m iddle. Three huge steam towers that look like a nuclear power station. W e flew around the lake about two miles away at 5000 feet so my pal could get a good look see. On the down wind side we flew into an invisible ki ller. We were doing above 140 when we flew into it. Instantly the left w ing fluttered at a fast pitch, aileron and all and it looked to be movin g maybe two inched up and down. I figured a couple seconds would break i t off. I didn't have time to look around the passenger to see if the rig ht wing was fluttering, but I suspect it was. I chopped power and did a hard diving wing over to the left and out of it. The flutter sound was g reat even over my Lightspeed AN system and the whole thing probably last maybe 5 or 6 seconds. I regained control out of the snap dive, maxing a bove 170 and flew slow and easy back to the field before I tested the co ntrols. Everything felt okay and I could see no wrinkles in the top skin so I landed. Didn't really have much choice. Upon inspection I found no sign of stress, no skin deform, no paint cracked around rivets, nothing . I will take off all inspection panels for a close inspection this week end and check bolts, controls, etc., but I cannot believe such a prolong ed violent movement of the wing did not damage something other than my p ride. Two things learned. Don't fly anywhere near a power station. Even at 5000 feet and miles away the invisible heat rises and is most extreme . Maybe intensified in cold weather. The other thing is the XL is very, very tough. Oh, there is a third thing. How could I have been so stupid not to know the first thing !! I am interested though in knowing why th e wings fluttered in this thermal? What theory of air dynamics would cau se this extreme reaction? Was is just the level of heat and speed the in visible air was streaming past? This was my 90th flight in her and she m ade me proud again. Best regards to you all, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http: //www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== =

Control flutter is a function of speed, If I ever encounter it I will pull off the power and  instantly climb to bleed off excess speed. I am curious why you dove and sped up??

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- "Jim Hoak" <planejim@bellsouth.net>& nbsp;wrote:

Hey Bill,
 
Sounds scary! Glad you are OK. Althou gh it was years ago ( first off I'm NOT a trained test pilot ) I was inv olved in some actual flutter problems involving a Midget Mustang I built by a friend and latter did flutter tests in a Mustang II built by anoth er friend.
 
When we experienced the flutter with the MM I  ( at about 180 mph ) we consulted an old friend who knew Dave Long ( the designer of the MM I ) and picked his brain. One thing h e said is if you experience flutter you have mere seconds to SLOW DOWN a nd the best way to do that is to reduce power and pull the airplane up ( I noticed you dove and increased speed but got out of it ). This proced ure helped us with the MM I. What we found with this airplane was an acc umulation of built in slop in the aileron control system. This system wa s all push rods and bellcranks and the builder had just drilled&nbs p;all the holes ( did not ream ) and used AN Standard bolts. I foun d this quickly by haveing the builder grasp one aileron while I mov ed the other aileron up and down better than a 1/4" at the trailing edge. Remeber this is a 200 mph plus airplane. We went to NAS and overs ized bolts and tightened up the slop. This DIDN'T cure the flutter thoug h. What we found then was that when he filled the counterweight tub es that were mounted forward of the hinge line with lead, he didn't get the tubes full as the lead solidified as he poured it in and left many a ir spaces inside the tube. We corrected that and the flutter problem wen t away. Probably both problems contributed to the flutter.
 
In the Mustang II we were doing flutt er test in the 225 230 mph range by increasing the speed by 1 mph i ncrements and never had a problem, but we were ready to slow it dow n if one did arise.
 
I know John from AMD tested for flutt er when he did your test flight and he said nothing about it when he lan ded. You might call him and ask what max speed he uses when testing.
 
Not being an aerodynamicist ( spellin g? ) I don't know the cause for your encounter but just maybe it has som ething to do with the fact that we don't use balanced controls on these Zenith airplanes and a weird air pattern that you encountered because of the heat from the power plant. I've flown over large fires on the groun d, as I'm sure you and others have in the past and experienced some pret ty rough air but not FLUTTER.
 
In your case, if it was unbalanced co ntrols, it seems that when you dove to 170, it should have made it worse . Do the "grab one aileron and try to move the other test" and see what you find. Otherwise, DON'T fly near the power plant any more! I've been tempted to fly over to that same place but since 9-11 I stay away f rom all power plants.
 
Let me know if I can help and also wh at you find.
 
Jim Hoak 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:31 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter

Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, clear, cool and only a slight w ind. The only big thing around much to see nearby is Lake Juliette which has a big coal fired power station in the middle. Three huge steam towe rs that look like a nuclear power station. We flew around the lake about two miles away at 5000 feet so my pal could get a good look see. On the down wind side we flew into an invisible killer. We were doing above 14 0 when we flew into it. Instantly the left wing fluttered at a fast pitc h, aileron and all and it looked to be moving maybe two inched up and do wn. I figured a couple seconds would break it off. I didn't have time to look around the passenger to see if the right wing was fluttering, but I suspect it was. I chopped power and did a hard diving wing over to the left and out of it. The flutter sound was great even over my Lightspeed AN system and the whole thing probably last maybe 5 or 6 seconds. I reg ained control out of the snap dive, maxing above 170 and flew slow and e asy back to the field before I tested the controls. Everything felt okay and I could see no wrinkles in the top skin so I landed. Didn't really have much choice. Upon inspection I found no sign of stress, no skin def orm, no paint cracked around rivets, nothing. I will take off all inspec tion panels for a close inspection this weekend and check bolts, control s, etc., but I cannot believe such a prolonged violent movement of the w ing did not damage something other than my pride. Two things learned. Do n't fly anywhere near a power station. Even at 5000 feet and miles away the invisible heat rises and is most extreme. Maybe intensified in cold weather. The other thing is the XL is very, very tough. Oh, there is a t hird thing. How could I have been so stupid not to know the first thing !!  I am interested though in knowing why the wings fluttered in th is thermal? What theory of air dynamics would cause this extreme reactio n? Was is just the level of heat and speed the invisible air was streami ng past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud again. Bes t regards to you all,
Bill of Georgia
N505WP
601XL-3300 


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________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Cable Rigging From: "Eric Tingey" While rigging the cables, I noticed that the Rudder and elevator cables cross over one another and are making contact. Is it acceptable that they are rubbing ever so slightly ? Eric. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90798#90798 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:59 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing Flutter Ben, maybe I did not explain well, but it was not control flutter. The aileron did not move independent of the wing. What occurred is the whole wing fluttered with aileron moving with it., best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:33 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS Ron- The HD/HDS design has three major advantages, all related to the size of the wings. 1. You can get by with a smaller workspace. 2. If you're scratchbuilding, you don't have to buy so many 12' sheets of stock. 3. 8' brakes are hard enough to come by, 12' even harder. Both XL and HDS prints/manuals have serious problems in my estimation, but "Shooting out prints" and "Writing work instructions" is what I do for a living. You have to balance personal expectations. Listers who have the same job responsibilites as I do can't believe how sloppy the prints and instructions are. On the other hand, how do Zenith instructions stack up to the competition? I don't know- the HDS is the only plane I've attempted to build. Zenith has never failed to be able to supply a replacement part for my HDS, and for that I'm grateful. Two cautions: 1. The Zenith website parts list is out of date. Prepare to receive a quote and pay more than is listed. 2. Make absolutely sure the part number you order is what you need. Bottom line is, CH never had a bad design. Execution is a different story. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lalonde" Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS > > Hi Gang > The HD and HDS are still very good options for some builders. I think the > HD especially. > I was wondering if there was still builder support for these models? Can > you still purchase pre-made parts from ZAC?? Plan updates etc? > Seems that most builders are building the XL. > Ron > > _________________________________________________________________ > Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live > Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:28 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cable Rigging Short answer, NO LOW&SLOW John While rigging the cables, I noticed that the Rudder and elevator cables cross over one another and are making contact. Is it acceptable that they are rubbing ever so slightly ? Eric. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90798#90798 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:39 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: NOT wing flutter! (long post) Whoa! One needs be careful saying "wing flutter" on a list devoted to aircraft! In the aerospace world, flutter is a specific phenomenon defined as "dynamic instability of an elastic body in an airstream" (from Aeroelasticity - Bisplinghoff, Ashley and Hoffman - the standard reference text). In a wing-type body, there is a speed *above* which the oscillations of the wing can go unstable, that is, they get bigger and bigger with each cycle. The only solution for this is to either slow down, change the wing's aerodynamic characteristics, for example by deploying spoilers or other controls, or change the wing's structural characteristics, for example by buckling stuff. If you are below that speed, the wing can not flutter. It can shake, rattle and roll for sure, but not flutter! 140 indicated is about 150 true, which should give you plenty of margin. (I am assuming mph. If you were going 140 knots indicated at 5000', that's over 170 mph true, and it's a different story.) Since you sped up and the wing did not come off, what you saw was not flutter, but simply some excitation of the wing bending. A two inch oscillation on a 601-length wing is not even close to being a structural problem. The wing is stressed for +/- 6 G's meaning that it can hold 6 times the gross weight of the aircraft without any failure. This is tested in production aircraft by loading up the wing with distributed sand bag weights, so in a typical 601, that would be about 5000 lbs of sand on each wing. You can bet that it will deflect a lot more than 2 inches! Of course, it is possible to get flutter of just a control surface. This is more likely in aircraft like a 601, which does not have mass balanced ailerons or elevators. But again, since you sped up and this did not get worse, it is very unlikely to have happened. There are a number of scenarios which could lead to an oscillation like you described, excited by the turbulence - including a low frequency control surface vibration linked through the aileron controls to your hand (the soft servo), a vibration caused by a structural change like a loosening cable or control arm, feedback or other failures in the aileron trim system, feedback in the autopilot if you have one (which should be designed to kick off in that situation). You should certainly check all those things and the wing attach bolts, and whatever else you can! But it could just have been the wing and/or aileron vibrating after being excited by the strong turbulence, like a guitar string being strummed. Note - when you encounter airframe vibrations, a good response is always to make small control movements and *slow down*, instead of speeding up. FWIW - standard disclaimers, etc., Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ (MIT '74, Ph.D. '87, all in Aerospace Engineering) N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:26 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Flutter???? Hi Bill,Glad everything came out OK. Looks like you ran into some really weird turbulence from the power-plant, giving you an "E" ticket ride. If you were really experiencing wing or control surface flutter, your diving and picking up speed should have exacerbated the problem with the amplitude going divergent very rapidly, until something(s) bends or more likely breaks off. Only saw this once in a film of a dynamic model in a wind tunnel - once flutter started the entire model was gonzo in a second or two. Do you recall experiencing any feed back in the stick/rudder?In 199 hours in my XL, I have had some bumpy rides and the airplane has handled it ok - just glad I always have my seat belt tight. I have also had some GREAT*, almost I would have believed, GOOD*, landings and I agree the airplane is tough. *GREAT Landing - Airplane is still flyable. GOOD Landing - You can walk away from the airplane.Please let us know if you find anything after your in-depth inspection. I kind of suspect you will not find anything amiss, but if you do it would be a good data point for all of us for tailoring our structural inspections. Tony Graziano XL; N493TG--------Ben, maybe I did not explain well, but it was not control flutter. The aileron did not move independent of the wing. What occurred is the whole wing fluttered with aileron moving with it., best regards, Bill------------------------- Dear Thread Friends, I went flying this afternoon. Took a fellow with me and just wanted an hour in the clear blue. Conditions were perfect, clear, cool and only a slight wind. The only big thing around much to see nearby is Lake Juliette which has a big coal fired power station in the middle. Three huge steam towers that look like a nuclear power station. We flew around the lake about two miles away at 5000 feet so my pal could get a good look see. On the down wind side we flew into an invisible killer. We were doing above 140 when we flew into it. Instantly the left wing fluttered at a fast pitch, aileron and all and it looked to be moving maybe two inched up and down. I figured a couple seconds would break it off. I didn't have time to look around the passenger to see if the right wing was fluttering, but I suspect it was. I chopped power and did a hard diving wing over to the left and out of it. The flutter sound was great even over my Lightspeed AN system and the whole thing probably last maybe 5 or 6 seconds. I regained control out of the snap dive, maxing above 170 and flew slow and easy back to the field before I tested the controls. Everything felt okay and I could see no wrinkles in the top skin so I landed. Didn't really have much choice. Upon inspection I found no sign of stress, no skin deform, no paint cracked around rivets, nothing. I will take off all inspection panels for a close inspection this weekend and check bolts, controls, etc., but I cannot believe such a prolonged violent movement of the wing did not damage something other than my pride. Two things learned. Don't fly anywhere near a power station. Even at 5000 feet and miles away the invisible heat rises and is most extreme. Maybe intensified in cold weather. The other thing is the XL is very, very tough. Oh, there is a third thing. How could I have been so stupid not to know the first thing !! I am interested though in knowing why the wings fluttered in this thermal? What theory of air dynamics would cause this extreme reaction? Was is just the level of heat and speed the invisible air was streaming past? This was my 90th flight in her and she made me proud again. Best regards to you all, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:44 AM PST US From: "rick tedford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS Hello Craig : Can you tell me how far and which way the panel moved on the 601XL ? My kit is of 2001vintage and I am going to instal a new panel which will have a better layout . I was unable to find the update showing the change . Any help would be appreciated . Cheers Rick Tedford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:46 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS > > Actually the XL may be the worse choice in terms of future parts > availability. That is because the XL is still evolving. I can't order many > parts for my vintage 2000 XL kit from Zenith because the plans have > changes. > The instrument panel has moved, the bulkheads have changed shape, etc. > That > is why lately I've been acting more like a scratch builder than a kit > builder. > > -- Craig > > > -- > 11:11 AM > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NOT wing flutter! From: "pilot4pay" Dr. Elliot, could you perhaps comment on the practicality of VGs on a stabillator? You may contact me off-list at pilot4profit@nospamsbcglobal.net of course remove the nospam do not archive -------- Craig Smith Future CH640 builder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90843#90843 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:42 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ Sun-N-Fun, OK Group, it is that time of year again, time to go to www.ch601.org or www.ch701.com and sign up for the Webmasters BBQ. This year is important to register. I had reports of Vans owners crashing the event for free food! It really shouldn't come as a surprise, after all that money for the large engine and the panel they need to forage for any free meal! ( Only kidding!right?) Anyways, I'm buying dinner for Zenith/Zenair owners/builders/dreamers, so in order to keep things in line a little better this year I will be making name tags again. Your name tag is your ticket for the free event. I will have name blank name tags for those who don't use a computer but I really need everyone to sign up for a couple of reasons. I use the list of name tags to judge how much food to buy and by doing it ahead of time I don't spend the whole Sun-N-Fun organizing the BBQ. I prefer to have everything done even before I leave Ontario. The first year of this event we saw at least 80 people, last year we were over 130 people. I still had food left over but barely and I ran out of pop way too early. I will make changes accordingly this year. Please sign up ASAP even if your only thinking of going. You can easily tell me later that you can't make it. That is far preferable then having 50-80 people sign up in the last week before I leave for Florida. Thanks Guys, I really look forward to seeing you all again. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -- 1/26/2007 11:11 AM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:33 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cable Rigging BTW: is this a 601HD, HDS, XL, 701 or 801? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Tingey Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 8:04 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Cable Rigging While rigging the cables, I noticed that the Rudder and elevator cables cross over one another and are making contact. Is it acceptable that they are rubbing ever so slightly ? Eric. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90798#90798 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:34 AM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: NOT wing flutter! Please, please! Keep the discussion on the list. This is the stuff I get the most benefit from since I haven't decided what to build yet. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of pilot4pay Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NOT wing flutter! Dr. Elliot, could you perhaps comment on the practicality of VGs on a stabillator? You may contact me off-list at pilot4profit@nospamsbcglobal.net of course remove the nospam do not archive -------- Craig Smith Future CH640 builder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90843#90843 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:37 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS It looks like I am wrong. The instrument panel has not moved. 6B14 dated 04/01 and 03/05 show 475 from the base of the instrument panel 6B12-4 to the firewall. But the dimensions of the forward top skin have changed. On 6C1 dated 10/06 6C1-4 is 570 by 1135. But the 05/01 plans show it as 600 by 1300. But the shorter dimension controls the firewall overhang and is trimmed to fit the cowl. 6B15 does show that the position of the most forward vertical stiffing L angle has moved by 45mm. The sheet dated 04/01 shows the stiffener 400 back from the firewall. The sheet dated 07/05 shows 355. Having three sets of plans makes for endless reading fun. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:01 PM PST US From: "Roger Venables" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ Mark What date is the BBQ? Roger Venables Kenmore, WA CH701 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ZodieRocket Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:31 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ Sun-N-Fun, OK Group, it is that time of year again, time to go to www.ch601.org or www.ch701.com and sign up for the Webmasters BBQ. This year is important to register. I had reports of Vans owners crashing the event for free food! It really shouldn't come as a surprise, after all that money for the large engine and the panel they need to forage for any free meal! ( Only kidding!right?) Anyways, I'm buying dinner for Zenith/Zenair owners/builders/dreamers, so in order to keep things in line a little better this year I will be making name tags again. Your name tag is your ticket for the free event. I will have name blank name tags for those who don't use a computer but I really need everyone to sign up for a couple of reasons. I use the list of name tags to judge how much food to buy and by doing it ahead of time I don't spend the whole Sun-N-Fun organizing the BBQ. I prefer to have everything done even before I leave Ontario. The first year of this event we saw at least 80 people, last year we were over 130 people. I still had food left over but barely and I ran out of pop way too early. I will make changes accordingly this year. Please sign up ASAP even if your only thinking of going. You can easily tell me later that you can't make it. That is far preferable then having 50-80 people sign up in the last week before I leave for Florida. Thanks Guys, I really look forward to seeing you all again. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -- 1/26/2007 11:11 AM ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:59 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ Sun-N-Fun 2007 Webmasters BBQ Thursday April 19 2007 Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Venables Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ Mark What date is the BBQ? Roger Venables Kenmore, WA CH701 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ZodieRocket Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:31 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ Sun-N-Fun, OK Group, it is that time of year again, time to go to www.ch601.org or www.ch701.com and sign up for the Webmasters BBQ. This year is important to register. I had reports of Vans owners crashing the event for free food! It really shouldn't come as a surprise, after all that money for the large engine and the panel they need to forage for any free meal! ( Only kidding!right?) Anyways, I'm buying dinner for Zenith/Zenair owners/builders/dreamers, so in order to keep things in line a little better this year I will be making name tags again. Your name tag is your ticket for the free event. I will have name blank name tags for those who don't use a computer but I really need everyone to sign up for a couple of reasons. I use the list of name tags to judge how much food to buy and by doing it ahead of time I don't spend the whole Sun-N-Fun organizing the BBQ. I prefer to have everything done even before I leave Ontario. The first year of this event we saw at least 80 people, last year we were over 130 people. I still had food left over but barely and I ran out of pop way too early. I will make changes accordingly this year. Please sign up ASAP even if your only thinking of going. You can easily tell me later that you can't make it. That is far preferable then having 50-80 people sign up in the last week before I leave for Florida. Thanks Guys, I really look forward to seeing you all again. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -- 1/26/2007 11:11 AM -- 1/26/2007 11:11 AM -- 1/26/2007 11:11 AM ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Rigging From: "Eric Tingey" CH601 HDS Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90882#90882 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: firewall grounding buss From: "chris Sinfield" Hi gang After watching Elec 101 I would like to get one of those neat Firewall earthing buss setups. Any one know where I can buy one? Chris :o Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90885#90885 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:49 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: firewall grounding buss B and C Specialty products. http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 Look for part numbers GB24 or GB48. > > Hi gang > After watching Elec 101 I would like to get one of those neat Firewall earthing buss setups. Any one know where I can buy one? > Chris -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:23 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ Mark- C-GOXL? What happened to your HD? do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "ZodieRocket" Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:30 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Sun-N-Fun BBQ > > Sun-N-Fun, OK Group, it is that time of year again, time to go to > www.ch601.org or www.ch701.com and sign up for the Webmasters BBQ. This > year is important to register. I had reports of Vans owners crashing the > event for free food! It really shouldn't come as a surprise, after all > that money for the large engine and the panel they need to forage for > any free meal! ( Only kidding!right?) Anyways, I'm buying dinner for > Zenith/Zenair owners/builders/dreamers, so in order to keep things in > line a little better this year I will be making name tags again. Your > name tag is your ticket for the free event. > I will have name blank name tags for those who don't use a computer but > I really need everyone to sign up for a couple of reasons. I use the > list of name tags to judge how much food to buy and by doing it ahead of > time I don't spend the whole Sun-N-Fun organizing the BBQ. I prefer to > have everything done even before I leave Ontario. > > The first year of this event we saw at least 80 people, last year we > were over 130 people. I still had food left over but barely and I ran > out of pop way too early. I will make changes accordingly this year. > > Please sign up ASAP even if your only thinking of going. You can easily > tell me later that you can't make it. That is far preferable then having > 50-80 people sign up in the last week before I leave for Florida. > > Thanks Guys, I really look forward to seeing you all again. > > Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario > Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started > www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com > > > -- > 1/26/2007 11:11 AM > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:42 PM PST US From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Annual Inspections I would really appreciate a copy of this. Thanks. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:53 PM PST US From: Christian Tremblay Subject: Zenith-List: Question concerning Flanged Lightening holes sides Hi dears builders, I was doing my flange lightening holes in my wing spar extension and I reversed male/female side of one hole. The male side was supposed to be on front side view of the plane, I done one (of 2) male back side of the plane. My question is that a big problem ? Could it be affect resistance ? Could be acceptable or not for some part of the plane like, spar, rib, fuselage and so on ? This is acceptable for AC 43.13 standard ? Please specify your background and experience on that domain if you respond to that question. I never read anything on that matter. Thanks a lot for information. Christian Tremblay A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan http://www.zodiac640.com/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:52 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: Does your front bungee cord pin touch the front gear leg? Looking over my third-hand 601XL kit I see that the front bungee cord pin 6G2-2 rubs on the gear leg 6G1-1. Looking at the stack-up of dimensions the tolerances are very tight. The 5/8th inch (15.8mm) pin passes through a hole whose center is 25mm from the firewall (see 6B8-7). So the forward edge of the pin is 25 + 15.8/2 = 32.9mm from the firewall. The 2 inch gear leg (radius = 25.4mm) passes through a hole in 6B7-1 that is 60mm from the firewall bend radius. The dimensions in the bottom bearing 6G2-1 are similar: the center of the 2 inch hole is 58mm from the rear edge of the block. So the rear edge of the gear leg is at 60 - 25.4 or 34.6mm from the firewall with some slop for the bend radius. 34.6 - 32.9 gives a clearance of 1.7mm. And the bungee pulls these two pieces together, removing any slop. Does the pin touch the leg on your plane? Is it acceptable to shift the nylon bearing forward to create enough clearance (I've got to replace mine due to other problems)? I'll be asking Zenith the same question. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:06 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Does your front bungee cord pin touch the front gear leg? Craig, The lower bungee pin 6G2-2 does not touch the gear tube on my XL. I don't know what the clearance is, but I could put a piece of .025 between the two without any friction. Jay in Dallas "Craig Payne" wrote: > >Looking over my third-hand 601XL kit I see that the front bungee cord pin >6G2-2 rubs on the gear leg 6G1-1. Looking at the stack-up of dimensions the >tolerances are very tight. The 5/8th inch (15.8mm) pin passes through a hole >whose center is 25mm from the firewall (see 6B8-7). So the forward edge of >the pin is 25 + 15.8/2 = 32.9mm from the firewall. The 2 inch gear leg >(radius = 25.4mm) passes through a hole in 6B7-1 that is 60mm from the >firewall bend radius. The dimensions in the bottom bearing 6G2-1 are >similar: the center of the 2 inch hole is 58mm from the rear edge of the >block. So the rear edge of the gear leg is at 60 - 25.4 or 34.6mm from the >firewall with some slop for the bend radius. 34.6 - 32.9 gives a clearance >of 1.7mm. And the bungee pulls these two pieces together, removing any slop. > >Does the pin touch the leg on your plane? Is it acceptable to shift the >nylon bearing forward to create enough clearance (I've got to replace mine >due to other problems)? > >I'll be asking Zenith the same question. > >-- Craig > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:49 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Does your front bungee cord pin touch the front gear leg? Mine, kit-built, has about 2mm clearance between 6G2-2 and 6G1-1.. Robin in AR 601XL Zen-Vair N601ZV reserved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Does your front bungee cord pin touch the front gear leg? > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: FBO Marty Turman From: "Husky Larry J" I know there are a few guys that fly through Lakeview, Oregon and stop by KLKV for fuel. Marty Turman has been there for years and there are many pilots that speak of him. I am sorry to say that Marty has passed away unexpectedly. From what I am told, Marty was complaining of a pain in his eye and called his neighbor, who is a nurse. Marty was gone before she arrived. Marty was an EAA technical advisor and was a big help when I have questions about my project. Marty also let me use many of his specialty tools. His presence will be missed by throughout the aviation field. I am going to be really lost on my project now, since he is the only AP within 100 miles. I do not know the future of the airport at this time. I have decided to paint a little something on my plane when it is done for Marty. He has been a big help to me. Marty was building an experimental also. A Beaver TD. It showed some of the finest work I have ever seen. You could look for some time and not find a flaw in the wings or fuse. Services will be Monday at 2 pm here in Lakeview. I went to the airport today and noticed a sign on his office door that reads. "When my ship finally comes in. I will probably be at the airport". I believe Marty was at the airport when he felt something was wrong. I have not had to post much on this group for questions, due to Marty's knowledge, but I am afraid that if I am to finish my project, that will have to change. If you knew Marty, take a minute to think of him and what he gave to aviation. I sure hate to see Marty's Cessna sitting there waiting for him. Larry Husky Lakeview, Oregon Do not Achieve ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Question concerning Flanged Lightening holes sides From: "TxDave" Hello Christian, One of the wing ribs (#7) in the 601XL has 2 lightening holes flanged in one direction and 2 holes flanged in the opposite direction. I'm assuming the part you are talking about is like the spar tip in the XL. The purpose of the flange is to add strength and rigidity to the part. I can't see where your mistake would affect the integrity of your wing in any way. Dave Clay Temple, TX http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90979#90979 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Flutter From: "PatrickW" Sheesh. I gotta chime in here... This is normal and has nothing to do with "flutter". I'd file this one right along side all the "twitchy" nonsense that was going around a few months ago. The guy hit a strong thermal due to rising heat off the steam stacks. Simple as that. I see this regularly in my Piper Warrior. The downwind 45 entry to my home airport runs right over the top of an oil refinery. Lots of heat. Always enough to bump you as you go over, and once it was enough to put me nearly on my side. You have to expect that sort of thing when flying over a large heat source. Regarding the wings bouncing - watch the normal flex of your wings (or look out the window next time you're on an airliner). Push & pull on that thing in your hands and watch what your wings do... Suggestion: go back and fly over that power plant again. Go high and slow, watch your altimeter, and expect some bumps. It won't be so bad now that you can anticipate what's going to happen. Seriously, give this a shot. - Patrick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90989#90989 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.