---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/28/07: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:43 AM - Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Jennifer Moorhouse) 2. 03:40 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 05:09 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Clyde Barcus) 4. 05:23 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Gary Boothe) 5. 07:37 AM - Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight (Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito) 6. 07:41 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (LarryMcFarland) 7. 08:07 AM - Re: NOT wing flutter! (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 8. 08:07 AM - Re: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight (LarryMcFarland) 9. 08:25 AM - Re: vg's (James Ferris) 10. 08:27 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Bill Naumuk) 11. 08:29 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Brandon Tucker) 12. 08:32 AM - Re: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight (Brandon Tucker) 13. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Wing Flutter (Bill Naumuk) 14. 09:05 AM - Fuse side skins (Bill Naumuk) 15. 09:22 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (BadBob) 16. 09:51 AM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Brad DeMeo) 17. 12:12 PM - Re: Fuse side skins (LarryMcFarland) 18. 12:32 PM - VGs feathers (Bill Wilcox) 19. 01:08 PM - Re: Fuse side skins (Southern Reflections) 20. 01:18 PM - Re: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight (Al Young) 21. 02:08 PM - Re: NOT wing flutter! (Tim Juhl) 22. 02:13 PM - Re: Fuse side skins (LarryMcFarland) 23. 02:35 PM - 701 builders top skin measurements (Ashcraft, Keith -AES) 24. 02:36 PM - Re: Fuse side skins (Jaybannist@cs.com) 25. 02:49 PM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. (Bryan Martin) 26. 03:21 PM - Re: 701 builders top skin measurements (Roger Venables) 27. 03:32 PM - Re: 701 builders top skin measurements (Ashcraft, Keith -AES) 28. 04:13 PM - Re: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight (n801bh@netzero.com) 29. 05:57 PM - Re: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS (Ron Lalonde) 30. 06:33 PM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac (OK2AV8@aol.com) 31. 06:33 PM - Re: Question concerning Flanged Lightening holes sides (Ron Lendon) 32. 07:31 PM - Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac (Craig Payne) 33. 09:48 PM - Re: Spin 601xl any experience, caveates, unusual recovery techn (David X) 34. 09:54 PM - Re: VGs feathers on an 801 (Keystone Engineering LLC) 35. 10:19 PM - Re: Choice of planes to prepare for Zodiac (MaxNr@aol.com) 36. 10:43 PM - Amount of paint Required (Jonathan Starke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:32 AM PST US From: Jennifer Moorhouse Subject: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. I usually fly a Cessna 152, the old shetland pony of the aircraft world. I haven't even been up in a Zenith anything yet, but am building a 601XL, currently the tail pieces until funds are a bit more free to dedicate to the rest of it. Until it's done, I want to prepare by flying something more similar to it than the Cessna. I have started transitioning to a Diamond Katana. I've flown one before, but it's been a couple of years. I just went up again yesterday in the composite beast. It was miserable to handle on the ground, pulling hard to the right, taxiing like a drunk three legged mule. I wonder if that's normal, because of the free castering nosewheel and the nice crosswind, 10kts, or if it's just that particular airplane. Maybe something is out of whack. There's not much rudder, and diff braking has to be used a lot on the ground. How does the Zodie compare? Do any of you also fly Katanas? The thing was squirrelly to take off and land. I couldn't keep it on centerline to save my soul. I'll get it, but I'll need to fly with the cfi again. The only other rentals at this particular airport are 172s. I could go to another airport, but don't know of anything more similar to the Zodiac that's available for training or rental. I've been happy putting about in the 152. I was wondering, long term am I going to be happy in a lighter weight airplane? The Katana is heavier than the 152 and the Zodiac is lighter. I was wondering if I can get happy with the Katana, is it good preparation for the Zodiac? --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:29 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. Hi Jennifer, I wish there were an easy answer to your question. Unfortunately, all planes are different, and it is unlikely to find two different models that are really similar to fly. I have not flown a Katana, but I have flown planes with free castering nose wheels. I find them very difficult to taxi and particularly difficult to take off. Add a cross wind which is trying to push your nose in the same direction as the engine torque and you have a real handful. In that respect the XL should be much nicer to handle and should be similar to the 150 since they both have nose wheel steering. I don't have my XL flying yet, but I suspect there is a significant difference in the behavior of XLs depending on which engine you have. Also, like the 150, the climb rate will change significantly depending on how many people are in the plane. Even so, an XL with a Jabiru 3300 will climb perhaps twice the rate of a 150. It has perhaps 30% more horsepower and 300 pounds less gross weight. From the standpoint of pilot training, I think all "Light" single engine planes are roughly similar to fly. When you move up to "High Performance" singles like the C-182 or Bonanza the pilot experience is quite different. The extra weight of these planes mean you must think of what you want the plane to be doing about 30 seconds in advance of the time you actually get what you want. Light singles respond immediately to changes in power and pitch. I wish we could all go out and rent XLs or 701s to prepare for flying the planes we are building. Alas, this isn't so easy to do. As far as I know there may be 3 XLs in the USA available for training and no 701s. This means you will be stuck flying whatever you can rent until your own plane is finished. Indeed, I think the more different models you fly the more you will appreciate your XL. Perhaps the 172 is reasonably close in general behavior to the XL, but if you load up the 172 it will be a lot more sluggish than your plane. I wish you luck. Paul XL fuselage At 02:41 AM 1/28/2007, you wrote: >I usually fly a Cessna 152, the old shetland pony of the aircraft >world. I haven't even been up in a Zenith anything yet, but am >building a 601XL, currently the tail pieces until funds are a bit >more free to dedicate to the rest of it. Until it's done, I want to >prepare by flying something more similar to it than the Cessna. I >have started transitioning to a Diamond Katana. I've flown one >before, but it's been a couple of years. I just went up again >yesterday in the composite beast. It was miserable to handle on the >ground, pulling hard to the right, taxiing like a drunk three legged >mule. I wonder if that's normal, because of the free castering >nosewheel and the nice crosswind, 10kts, or if it's just that >particular airplane. Maybe something is out of whack. There's not >much rudder, and diff braking has to be used a lot on the ground. >How does the Zodie compare? Do any of you also fly Katanas? The >thing was squirrelly to take off and land. I couldn't keep it on >centerline to save my soul. I'll get it, but I'll need to fly with >the cfi again. The only other rentals at this particular airport are >172s. I could go to another airport, but don't know of anything more >similar to the Zodiac that's available for training or rental. I've >been happy putting about in the 152. I was wondering, long term am I >going to be happy in a lighter weight airplane? The Katana is >heavier than the 152 and the Zodiac is lighter. I was wondering if I >can get happy with the Katana, is it good preparation for the Zodiac? > - ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:51 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. I learned to fly in a Grumman which has a free castoring nose wheel, I admit it bothered me for the first few flights. However, after a few flights it becomes second nature to drag a little brake to keep it straight until the rudder becomes effective, I actually wish the XL was free castoring. On the subject of handling, I am sure you will find the XL very easy to fly and that is from a low-time pilot. The last time I flew as pilot in command was a little more than 20 years ago and I became comfortable with the XL very quickly, even with my lack of experience. I am sure you will get a response from highly experienced pilots soon, I just thought you might also want the opinion from someone that was concerned about the same issues. Clyde Barcus 601 XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Jennifer Moorhouse To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 4:41 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. I usually fly a Cessna 152, the old shetland pony of the aircraft world. I haven't even been up in a Zenith anything yet, but am building a 601XL, currently the tail pieces until funds are a bit more free to dedicate to the rest of it. Until it's done, I want to prepare by flying something more similar to it than the Cessna. I have started transitioning to a Diamond Katana. I've flown one before, but it's been a couple of years. I just went up again yesterday in the composite beast. It was miserable to handle on the ground, pulling hard to the right, taxiing like a drunk three legged mule. I wonder if that's normal, because of the free castering nosewheel and the nice crosswind, 10kts, or if it's just that particular airplane. Maybe something is out of whack. There's not much rudder, and diff braking has to be used a lot on the ground. How does the Zodie compare? Do any of you also fly Katanas? The thing was squirrelly to take off and land. I couldn't keep it on centerline to save my soul. I'll get it, but I'll need to fly with the cfi again. The only other rentals at this particular airport are 172s. I could go to another airport, but don't know of anything more similar to the Zodiac that's available for training or rental. I've been happy putting about in the 152. I was wondering, long term am I going to be happy in a lighter weight airplane? The Katana is heavier than the 152 and the Zodiac is lighter. I was wondering if I can get happy with the Katana, is it good preparation for the Zodiac? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- --> http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:01 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. There are two 601's on the west coast you can rent. If you're already flying a 152 I would be surprised if you could not transition in less than an hour. Let me know if you are interested in contact info. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jennifer Moorhouse Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:42 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. I usually fly a Cessna 152, the old shetland pony of the aircraft world. I haven't even been up in a Zenith anything yet, but am building a 601XL, currently the tail pieces until funds are a bit more free to dedicate to the rest of it. Until it's done, I want to prepare by flying something more similar to it than the Cessna. I have started transitioning to a Diamond Katana. I've flown one before, but it's been a couple of years. I just went up again yesterday in the composite beast. It was miserable to handle on the ground, pulling hard to the right, taxiing like a drunk three legged mule. I wonder if that's normal, because of the free castering nosewheel and the nice crosswind, 10kts, or if it's just that particular airplane. Maybe something is out of whack. There's not much rudder, and diff braking has to be used a lot on the ground. How does the Zodie compare? Do any of you also fly Katanas? The thing was squirrelly to take off and land. I couldn't keep it on centerline to save my soul. I'll get it, but I'll need to fly with the cfi again. The only other rentals at this particular airport are 172s. I could go to another airport, but don't know of anything more similar to the Zodiac that's available for training or rental. I've been happy putting about in the 152. I was wondering, long term am I going to be happy in a lighter weight airplane? The Katana is heavier than the 152 and the Zodiac is lighter. I was wondering if I can get happy with the Katana, is it good preparation for the Zodiac? _____ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:22 AM PST US From: "Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight Hi Folks, After almost 3,000 working hours, my "Zodiac XL 601" has finally been flown. It was gorgeous. Thus far I don't have the technical data , but when i do, I'll put them here. You can see it here http://www.airfox.com.br/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7 Roberto Brito Zodiac XL601 Plans Jabiru 3300 Woodcomp SR 3000 prop. Enigma. S=E3o Paulo-Brazil... ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:35 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. Jennifer, I assume you're building a tri-gear XL, so perhaps a better choice for equivalent handling would be a Piper Cherokee PA-28. The Zenith nose gear setup is great, compared to differential steering with brakes. I cannot see a comparison for you with the Katana as it's too slippery for its weight to offer the same feel in taxiing or flying. You'll find the XL very positive on the ground and in the air with no surprises, save an very responsive elevator. I rented a PA28 a few months before flying my 601HDS (shorter wing), but the XL I would suspect be closer to it than my HDS. The transition was seamless because the 601 is lighter and is a slight bit quicker to respond. Lots more fun than the Piper or Cessna! I'd suggest you look a flying 601 near you and get a right seat feel for what it's about. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Check out the frapper list to see who's near your area from the link below. **http://www.frappr.com/zenith601** Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Jennifer Moorhouse wrote: > I usually fly a Cessna 152, the old shetland pony of the aircraft > world. I haven't even been up in a Zenith anything yet, but am > building a 601XL, currently the tail pieces until funds are a bit more > free to dedicate to the rest of it. Until it's done, I want to prepare > by flying something more similar to it than the Cessna. I have started > transitioning to a Diamond Katana. I've flown one before, but it's > been a couple of years. I just went up again yesterday in the > composite beast. It was miserable to handle on the ground, pulling > hard to the right, taxiing like a drunk three legged mule. I wonder if > that's normal, because of the free castering nosewheel and the nice > crosswind, 10kts, or if it's just that particular airplane. Maybe > something is out of whack. There's not much rudder, and diff braking > has to be used a lot on the ground. How does the Zodie compare? Do any > of you also fly Katanas? The thing was squirrelly to take off and > land. I couldn't keep it on centerline to save my soul. I'll get it, > but I'll need to fly with the cfi again. The only other rentals at > this particular airport are 172s. I could go to another airport, but > don't know of anything more similar to the Zodiac that's available for > training or rental. I've been happy putting about in the 152. I was > wondering, long term am I going to be happy in a lighter weight > airplane? The Katana is heavier than the 152 and the Zodiac is > lighter. I was wondering if I can get happy with the Katana, is it > good preparation for the Zodiac? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:31 AM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NOT wing flutter! Andy, thanks for the input and I don't doubt your a ton smart on the subject. Still I saw what I saw, heard what I heard, and felt what I felt. I have flown enough to have seen a few wings bend in bumps. Even put a wrinkle in a Warrior wing once, but that's another story. If you extend your arm straight out to your side and move the end of your fingers up and down about 2 -3 inches as fast as you can until they blur and hum very loud as you do this you can recreate what I saw and heard. Some scientist I am ? Oh, well. I knew I was in trouble when it did not change sound when I cut power. That's when I rolled over to dive away and it ended somewhere in the roll and dive. I will recheck everything and cable stretch as well. Thanks again, Best regards, Bill ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:36 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight Congratulations Roberto, You've built a really nice aircraft and I'm looking forward to seeing the numbers for its performance. Nicely done! Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > After almost 3,000 working hours, my "Zodiac XL 601" has finally been > flown. > It was gorgeous. > Thus far I don't have the technical data , but when i do, I'll put > them here. > > You can see it here > http://www.airfox.com.br/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7 > > > > Roberto Brito > Zodiac XL601 > Plans > Jabiru 3300 > Woodcomp SR 3000 prop. > Enigma. > > So Paulo-Brazil... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:15 AM PST US From: James Ferris Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vg's F-16 does not have slats.... --- Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Hi Larry, > > I have noticed many airliners (probably from Boeing) > with both > retractable slats and dozens (hundreds) of fixed VGs > on each > wing. Also, every heavy plane I have ever seen has > fully retractable > flaps. I am not an aeronautical engineer, but I > must assume the > airline designers go to great lengths to improve the > landing and > takeoff performance of their aluminum clouds to > allow them to operate > on shorter runways and improve airplane sales. > > I tend to agree with you that these issues are not > so apparent with a > 701 that barely needs a runway to start with. > However, anyone who > wants to spend their lives second guessing Chris > Heintz on the best > way to design a small airplane for inexperienced > pilots and first > time home builders can have my share of that > activity. I'll just > stick with his judgement and proven track record. > > Paul > XL fuselage > do not archive > > At 08:14 AM 12/23/2006, you wrote: > >Here are some thoughts or interesting questions. > If slats really > >don't serve much purpose as some of you have > claimed, then why do > >all airliners have retractable leading edge slats? > Why do many > >fighters such as an F16 or even WWII fighters such > as the ME-109 > >have leading edge slats? How about the a Storch or > Helio Courier? > The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:06 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. Jennifer- I've been told by CFIs who do a lot of "Test piloting" for homebuilts that the closest certificated match to a 601 is a 108hp Grumman 2 place trainer. I think it's an AA-2, but don't quote me on that- you can find out easy enough on-line. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Jennifer Moorhouse To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:41 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. I usually fly a Cessna 152, the old shetland pony of the aircraft world. I haven't even been up in a Zenith anything yet, but am building a 601XL, currently the tail pieces until funds are a bit more free to dedicate to the rest of it. Until it's done, I want to prepare by flying something more similar to it than the Cessna. I have started transitioning to a Diamond Katana. I've flown one before, but it's been a couple of years. I just went up again yesterday in the composite beast. It was miserable to handle on the ground, pulling hard to the right, taxiing like a drunk three legged mule. I wonder if that's normal, because of the free castering nosewheel and the nice crosswind, 10kts, or if it's just that particular airplane. Maybe something is out of whack. There's not much rudder, and diff braking has to be used a lot on the ground. How does the Zodie compare? Do any of you also fly Katanas? The thing was squirrelly to take off and land. I couldn't keep it on centerline to save my soul. I'll get it, but I'll need to fly with the cfi again. The only other rentals at this particular airport are 172s. I could go to another airport, but don't know of anything more similar to the Zodiac that's available for training or rental. I've been happy putting about in the 152. I was wondering, long term am I going to be happy in a lighter weight airplane? The Katana is heavier than the 152 and the Zodiac is lighter. I was wondering if I can get happy with the Katana, is it good preparation for the Zodiac? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- --> http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:27 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. Jennifer, Tell us where you are located. There might be a Zodiac close enough to fly. R/ Brandon Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:23 AM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight Roberto, Nice looking plane. Please keep us updated on performance. I suspect your canopy / turtledeck modification will yield very nice performance numbers paired with Jab power. Very nice job. VR/ Brandon 601 HDS / TD / Corvair 56 hours Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:22 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Flutter All- Since I was responsible for the observation of Dutch Roll in the YouTube clip refered to here, let me make a public retraction. Other YouTube clips have shown smoothly flown 601 landing patterns. It seems the "Twitchiness" I observed was due to PIO, and is not to be confused with the no BS Dutch Roll inherent in an A36 Bonanza. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "PatrickW" Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:44 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Wing Flutter > > Sheesh. I gotta chime in here... > > This is normal and has nothing to do with "flutter". I'd file this one > right along side all the "twitchy" nonsense that was going around a few > months ago. > > The guy hit a strong thermal due to rising heat off the steam stacks. > Simple as that. I see this regularly in my Piper Warrior. > > The downwind 45 entry to my home airport runs right over the top of an oil > refinery. Lots of heat. Always enough to bump you as you go over, and > once it was enough to put me nearly on my side. > > You have to expect that sort of thing when flying over a large heat > source. > > Regarding the wings bouncing - watch the normal flex of your wings (or > look out the window next time you're on an airliner). Push & pull on that > thing in your hands and watch what your wings do... > > Suggestion: go back and fly over that power plant again. Go high and > slow, watch your altimeter, and expect some bumps. It won't be so bad now > that you can anticipate what's going to happen. Seriously, give this a > shot. > > - Patrick > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90989#90989 > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:55 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins All- I've decided to shit-can my kinked .016 fuse side skins and make new .025 skins. Can I do away with the gussets intended for use with .016? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:38 AM PST US From: "BadBob" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. I was lucky enough to fly a 601XL a couple of weeks back. The aircraft belongs to Pete Andersen and in located at Hillsboro, Oregon. The workmanship on the airplane is great and everything looked straight. Roll control is stiff (but not excessive) and pitch is sensitive. I own a Cassutt racer that is not as pitch sensitive as the XL ( however roll is EXTREMELY quick! :-) ). Now a friend owns a Lansair 235 that is MUCH more pitch sensitive than the XL. I did not operate the XL in slow flight mode but watching the control inputs while landing it appears to handle much like a trainer. My only concern for a low time pilot would be overcontrolling the aircraft in the pitch axes. As long as you could keep a relaxed hand on the stick that wouldn't be a problem. Having said this the XL trims out nicely for hands off stable flight! I hope this helps! Bob Johnson in Oregon ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. From: Brad DeMeo I fly a Piper Cherokee 140 rental. I find the characteristics are closer to the Zodiac XL than the 152. I am lucky enough to be near a Zodiac at a local training school. I go up in it as much as possible. If you can find one within reach, go spend some time in it. It's a real pleasure to fly!!! Brad DeMeo Zodiac XL 80% done. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:29 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins Hi Bill, I'd think you could do without them. It's a serious improvement in skin stability, so the gussets are of doubtful value. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > I've decided to shit-can my kinked .016 fuse side skins and make > new .025 skins. Can I do away with the gussets intended for use with .016? > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuselage > Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:13 PM PST US From: Bill Wilcox Subject: Zenith-List: VGs feathers JG I got the feathers you sent. Thank you!! I took the old VGs off and put the feathers on last night. All I need now is a nice day. We have been having snow storm after snow storm lately. So far this winter we have received 250" of snow. Thus is life in the snow capital of the world. Flight test results soon. Bill Wilcox N801BW Valdez, Alaska 280 hrs Waiting for a nice day ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:11 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins larry, how hard would it be to change the fuse side skin on a complete 601 from .016 to .025 ?? joe N101HD ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:10 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins > > Hi Bill, > I'd think you could do without them. It's a serious improvement in skin > stability, so the gussets are of doubtful value. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > do not archive > > Bill Naumuk wrote: >> All- >> I've decided to shit-can my kinked .016 fuse side skins and make new >> .025 skins. Can I do away with the gussets intended for use with .016? >> Bill Naumuk >> HDS Fuselage >> Townville, Pa > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:26 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight Roberto- Congrats on a beautiful XL and a great flight. Hope you have many more just as satisfying. Al Young XL ----- Original Message ----- From: Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:35 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight Hi Folks, After almost 3,000 working hours, my "Zodiac XL 601" has finally been flown. It was gorgeous. Thus far I don't have the technical data , but when i do, I'll put them here. You can see it here http://www.airfox.com.br/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7 Roberto Brito Zodiac XL601 Plans Jabiru 3300 Woodcomp SR 3000 prop. Enigma. S=E3o Paulo-Brazil... ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NOT wing flutter! From: "Tim Juhl" Bill, You've got us all interested so please don't take our questions as criticism. I've never seen the wings move in the strut-braced airplanes that I've owned but when I've been bounced around violently I'm afraid I never had the presence of mind to look at the wings until after the event had passed. Would you mind sharing what you experienced in the cockpit while this was happening? Were you being thrown up and down? Was the stick jerking or reacting to forces on the aileron cables? Tim Juhl -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91120#91120 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:05 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins Hi Joe, I believe the task would be daunting but possible if you're determined. The greatest difficulty would be getting behind the overlapping top skins. It would be necessary to use the .016 skins as template and you'd probably want to re-jig for square and support, so tail feathers would have to come off too. Always a risk of damaging holes when you're drilling more than one layer of material because a bulkhead might be tensioned to misalign and in drilling out rivets you could end up with a few holes larger than you can use. Also, there is always a possibility you could damage electrical wires drilling out rivets. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Southern Reflections wrote: > > > larry, how hard would it be to change the fuse side skin on a > complete 601 from .016 to .025 ?? joe N101HD > ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" > > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:10 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 701 builders top skin measurements From: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES" All 701 builders, Quick question, I have Edition #4, 6th printing 02/2002. Part 7F2-1 (Top Skin) on the aft end shows two measurements for the tail end. I have a Centerline measurement of 62.5mm, but it also shows an overall measurement of 135mm. What does the kit have, or what is the measurement of somebody's later set of plans? I have already cut to 125mm before I noticed the second measurement, but if it is 135mm, I will build a doubler plate to fit in the aft end of the Top Skin. Thanks for all of your support on this list. Keith CH701 ------- scratch -- still cutting out parts Sidewinder -- scratch -- 8% Teenie Two -- scratch -- wooden forms N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' ************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:00 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins Also, don't forget that the rudder cables go through holes in the side skins; the horizontal stab brackets are on top of the skins; the aileron control rods go through holes in the skins; the boarding step is fastened on top of the skins; and the front side skins overlap the rear side skins. It might be easier to add .009" of REALLY tough paint to get to .025" (:D) Jay in Dallas Definitely do not archive! LarryMcFarland wrote: > > >Hi Joe, >I believe the task would be daunting but possible if you're determined. >The greatest difficulty would be getting behind the >overlapping top skins. It would be necessary to use the .016 skins as >template and you'd probably want to re-jig for square >and support, so tail feathers would have to come off too. Always a risk >of damaging holes when you're drilling more than one >layer of material because a bulkhead might be tensioned to misalign and >in drilling out rivets you could end up with a few holes >larger than you can use. Also, there is always a possibility you could >damage electrical wires drilling out rivets. > >Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >do not archive > >Southern Reflections wrote: >> >> >> larry, how hard would it be to change the fuse side skin on a >> complete 601 from .016 to .025 ?? joe N101HD >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" >> >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:10 PM >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuse side skins > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:56 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac. Before flying my Zodiac about 99% of my flight time was in single engine Cessnas, mostly 150/152s and 172s with some time in Cardinals and Cutlasses and only a few hours in a low wing Beech 19. I did take a ride in a 601HD a couple years before mine was complete and flew the approach to landing. I had no problem flying the plane even though I was in the right seat. The only issue was that the touchdown was a bit firmer than I like, the Zodiacs do develop a pretty good sink rate when you pull the power. Before test flying my Zodiac, I put several hours of flight time in Cessna 152s and 172s. The transition to the Zodiac was not hard at all. If you can fly a Cessna 152 or 172 well and make good landings you probably won't have any trouble with the 601XL. I've found that the approach and landing speeds are nearly identical to the Cessnas. The main differences I've noticed are that my zodiac doesn't have much tendency to float if the landing speed is a bit high and it won't bounce if the touchdown is a bit too firm. On my Zodiac, once the mains touch the ground, the nose wheel comes down and the plane is done flying. It won't skip down the runway on the mains like a Cessna when you touchdown a little fast. I've noticed that the more recent kits have the main gear spring reversed from the earlier kits, putting the mains a few inches farther forward. This will change the touchdown behavior some, making it easier to ease the nose wheel down gently. On mine you have to be ready to pull back on the stick at touchdown to avoid dropping the nose wheel abruptly. Jennifer Moorhouse wrote: > I usually fly a Cessna 152, the old shetland pony of the aircraft world. > I haven't even been up in a Zenith anything yet, but am building a > 601XL, -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:58 PM PST US From: "Roger Venables" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 builders top skin measurements Keith My plans show 67.5 cl, overall 135 Roger Kenmore, WA CH701 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ashcraft, Keith -AES Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: 701 builders top skin measurements All 701 builders, Quick question, I have Edition #4, 6th printing 02/2002. Part 7F2-1 (Top Skin) on the aft end shows two measurements for the tail end. I have a Centerline measurement of 62.5mm, but it also shows an overall measurement of 135mm. What does the kit have, or what is the measurement of somebody's later set of plans? I have already cut to 125mm before I noticed the second measurement, but if it is 135mm, I will build a doubler plate to fit in the aft end of the Top Skin. Thanks for all of your support on this list. Keith CH701 ------- scratch -- still cutting out parts Sidewinder -- scratch -- 8% Teenie Two -- scratch -- wooden forms N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' ************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 builders top skin measurements From: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES" Thanks Roger, I guess I will build a doubler that has to correct dims on it!! Thanks again. Keith ************************************************************************* ** -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Venables Sent: Sun 1/28/2007 4:18 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 701 builders top skin measurements Keith My plans show 67.5 cl, overall 135 Roger Kenmore, WA CH701 -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ashcraft, Keith -AES Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: 701 builders top skin measurements All 701 builders, Quick question, I have Edition #4, 6th printing 02/2002. Part 7F2-1 (Top Skin) on the aft end shows two measurements for the tail end. I have a Centerline measurement of 62.5mm, but it also shows an overall measurement of 135mm. What does the kit have, or what is the measurement of somebody's later set of plans? I have already cut to 125mm before I noticed the second measurement, but if it is 135mm, I will build a doubler plate to fit in the aft end of the Top Skin. Thanks for all of your support on this list. Keith CH701 ------- scratch -- still cutting out parts Sidewinder -- scratch -- 8% Teenie Two -- scratch -- wooden forms N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' ************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. ************************************ ************************************ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intende d solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If yo u have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and d o not necessarily represent those of ITT, Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mai l. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:37 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fw: The Special Zodiac first flight The first flight in a plane you built is a very high point in anybodys l ife.. Congrats to you... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito" wrote: Hi Folks, After almost 3,000 working hours, my "Zodiac XL 601" has fina lly been flown.It was gorgeous.Thus far I don't have the technical data , but when i do, I'll put them here. You can see it here http://www.ai rfox.com.br/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7 Roberto BritoZodiac XL ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ========================

The first flight in a plane you built is a very high point in a nybodys life.. Congrats to you...

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- "Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito"  <lenabeto@uol.com.br> wrote:

 
 
Hi Folks,
 
After almost 3,000 working hours, my&nb sp;"Zodiac XL 601" has finally been flown.
It was gorgeous.
Thus far I don't have the technical dat a , but when i do, I'll put them here.
 
 
 
Roberto Brito
Zodiac XL601
Plans
Jabiru 3300
Woodcomp SR 3000 prop.
Enigma.
 
S=E3o Paulo-Brazil...


========================
===========
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
========================
===========
tronics.com
========================
===========
________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:47 PM PST US From: "Ron Lalonde" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Builder support for the 601HD or HDS Yes, and if you try and match an earlier stab to a later model XL fuselage that presents a few glitches. (Which as I am lead to believe can be overcome!!) Ron >Actually the XL may be the worse choice in terms of future parts >availability. That is because the XL is still evolving. I can't order many >parts for my vintage 2000 XL kit from Zenith because the plans have >changes. >The instrument panel has moved, the bulkheads have changed shape, etc. That >is why lately I've been acting more like a scratch builder than a kit >builder. > >-- Craig > > _________________________________________________________________ Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:48 PM PST US From: OK2AV8@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac Jennifer, I agree with Bryan Martin but I offer another possibility. I flew 10 hours and 100 landings in an Evector SportStar that was for rent locally. I was able to fly it to my home airport for the extensive pattern work (including simulated engine out in the pattern, landing on the adjacent grass field) and I feel it was a good choice. Roger at Zenith suggested getting time in something light with quicker responses than "Wichita Spam Cans". The Sportstar is Rotax powered with split flaps but it is very similar to the XL. Attached is a nose to nose comparison pic I took of the Sportstar and my XL before its first flight in November. My inspector is also an EAA flight advisor and he agreed the Sportstar is a good choice. I still went to Mexico and flew with Roger in the factory XL one last time before I flew. I don't know how I could have been more prepared. First flight was uneventful. The 601XL is a very nice flying plane and if you can confidently fly a Cessna 150/152, you'll have no problem - except getting the smile off your face! Good Luck! Tim Garrett N360TM 601XL + Jabiru 3300 10 hours - in flight testing... ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Question concerning Flanged Lightening holes sides From: "Ron Lendon" I made the same mistake on the spar web but because I worked so close I just stacked the spar caps and angles to the opposite side. If it is just the wing tip then like Dave says it probably won't make any difference. Here is the link to my mistake: or -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91188#91188 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:16 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Choice of planes to fly to prepare for Zodiac I can second the recommendation for the SportStar. I did half my training in one and soloed in one at St Charles Flying Service outside of St. Louis. Training in SportStars is a little more available than in XLs: Washington state, California (north, middle and south), Colorado, Minnesota, Missouri, Indiana, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina and Pennsylvania. See http://www.evektoramerica.com/wheretofly.html for details. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Spin 601xl any experience, caveates, unusual recovery techn From: "David X" The factory builts have been thoroughly spin tested, but the CG is is a few inches forward of the kits and the elevator has a bit more command. That said, there is no reason the aircraft would not recover normally from a spin so long as CG is within range. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=91227#91227 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:56 PM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: Re: VGs feathers on an 801 Hi I got about 30 minutes of weather good enough to fly this afternoon. The leading edge slats are off and the feather VGs are on. It seemed to want to climb like a home sick angel. I was light (1600 lbs), 30 gallons of fuel and 230 pounds of me with nothing else. I saw 900 FPM at 80 MPH. Density altitude on the ground was -1500'. The plane flew good I did not notice any CG issues. Before After Cruise 103 MPH 111 MPH both adjusted to 4500' standard temp at 85% power 10.5 GPH leaned to 150 ROP No flaps stall None Buffet at 58, stall 50 indicated and GPS Full flaps stall None I assumed 38 45 indicated 49 GPS (only done once) Approach speed 50 58 Take off run Very short Much longer 250' 350' Landing distance: the breaking action was poor so I did not measure. I need to fly more in this configuration. The fog moved in and I was going to bust FARs so I landed. It is weird flying a plane that will actually stall! I think it may be a better plane to teach the kids to fly. They would learn what stalls feels like. The flaperons are effective even in the stall. The VG spacing for the outboard 3' is at 60 MM and the rest are at 90 mm spacing. I may change the spacing to 60 MM for the length of the "aileron". This hopefully will still give aileron control and inner part of wing stalling first but still lower speeds. Bill Wilcox N801BW Valdez, Alaska 280 hrs Waiting for a flying day. Going to replace the VGs on the tail with more, smaller VGs with less angle. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Wilcox" Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:31 AM Subject: VGs feathers > JG > > I got the feathers you sent. Thank you!! > > I took the old VGs off and put the feathers on last night. All I need now > is a nice day. > > We have been having snow storm after snow storm lately. So far this > winter we have received 250" of snow. Thus is life in the snow capital of > the world. > > Flight test results soon. > > Bill Wilcox > N801BW > Valdez, Alaska > 280 hrs > Waiting for a nice day > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:18 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Choice of planes to prepare for Zodiac Excelent topic. I vote for the Grumman AA-1 series because of its superficial resemblence to a 601XL and its inferior numbers. I admit that I have not flown it however. Consider the following: AA-1 has three feet less wing, half again more wing loading,(XL=about 10, AA-1 15 to 15.5) and higher power loading. If you can fly that ground loving pig, you should have no problem with an XL with its nose wheel steering. I have flown about 45 types since 1957 and vote for the Comanche 250 as the hardest to land and still look good, Mooney Mk-21 next. I also owned a BE-23 and Luscombe 8A. Both do not deserve their bad reps and if you can find one, they will be good practice also. Get with a sadistic instructor in any of these, and a 601XL should be a walk in the park. Bob Dingley Pace,FL 601XL rud & mtr mt.(Lyc and prop from an AA-1B) ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:55 PM PST US From: "Jonathan Starke" Subject: Zenith-List: Amount of paint Required Hi All Listers. I have now come to the point where painting is required: Does anyone have an idea of the amount of paint required to paint a 601XL How much (average) undercoat is required, and how much final colour is required? Assuming one colour all over. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thnx Jonathan Starke 912S 65+ hrs and enjoying evry minute. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.