---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/09/07: 64 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:06 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Robin Bellach) 2. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Gary Boothe) 3. 05:30 AM - Re: No Title (Larry Portouw) 4. 06:04 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 50 Msgs - 02/08/07 (Chris Ross) 5. 06:14 AM - Re: Re: No Title (Paul Mulwitz) 6. 06:21 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (William Dominguez) 7. 06:25 AM - Re: Drilling plastic lens (caspainhower@aep.com) 8. 06:38 AM - 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (ashontz) 9. 06:59 AM - Re: (Charles Wacker) 10. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Robin Bellach) 11. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (LarryMcFarland) 12. 07:49 AM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (Michael Valentine) 13. 08:10 AM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (Jaybannist@cs.com) 14. 08:16 AM - Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. (Tim Juhl) 15. 08:32 AM - (BadBob) 16. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: No Title (NYTerminat@aol.com) 17. 08:47 AM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 09:03 AM - Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Gig Giacona) 19. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 20. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 21. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 22. 09:39 AM - Re: Drilling wing spars (Herbert Heaton) 23. 10:08 AM - NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Robin Bellach) 24. 10:25 AM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. () 25. 10:32 AM - Throttle and stick configuration () 26. 10:32 AM - Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Afterfxllc@AOL.COM) 27. 10:40 AM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. () 28. 10:52 AM - Re: Throttle and stick configuration (NYTerminat@aol.com) 29. 10:58 AM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (LarryMcFarland) 30. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (BadBob) 31. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. (Paul Mulwitz) 32. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 33. 11:37 AM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. () 34. 11:37 AM - VGs feathers on an 801 (Keystone Engineering LLC) 35. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems (Gary Briggs) 36. 12:20 PM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (Juan Vega) 37. 12:28 PM - Re: (Juan Vega) 38. 12:31 PM - NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb (dougsire) 39. 12:50 PM - Re: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb (Steve Shuck) 40. 12:52 PM - Re: Need a BRS? (aprazer) 41. 01:34 PM - Re: (Bryan Martin) 42. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Need a BRS? (John Marzulli) 43. 01:50 PM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (Bryan Martin) 44. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. (Bryan Martin) 45. 02:02 PM - Re: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. (C Smith) 46. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Need a BRS? (Jim Logajan) 47. 02:18 PM - Re:Throttle and stick configuaration (MaxNr@aol.com) 48. 02:21 PM - Re: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb (Bryan Martin) 49. 02:30 PM - Composite Landing Gears from Aircraft Spruce (MaxNr@aol.com) 50. 02:37 PM - Re: VGs feathers on an 801 (C Smith) 51. 03:25 PM - Re: Composite Landing Gears from Aircraft Spruce (NYTerminat@aol.com) 52. 03:26 PM - Re: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb (Paul Mulwitz) 53. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: Need a BRS? (Jim Logajan) 54. 04:20 PM - Re: VGs feathers on an 801 (n801bh@netzero.com) 55. 04:31 PM - Re: (Bill Naumuk) 56. 04:53 PM - Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. (Tim Juhl) 57. 04:56 PM - Re: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb (Tim Juhl) 58. 04:58 PM - WW (Bill Naumuk) 59. 06:09 PM - Re: WW (JOHN STARN) 60. 06:13 PM - Re: WW (LarryMcFarland) 61. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. (Steve Hulland) 62. 06:23 PM - Re: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb (Steve Hulland) 63. 07:32 PM - I have a new set of parts! (Rich) 64. 08:30 PM - Re: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:01 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems What parts do you have, for how much $? ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Gary, how about you buy my 1/2 completed FWF and then work with William to get the other 1/2 of your parts. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:54 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems ...What he needs is competition.. OK.you made your point...If that's the way you feel, then go for it!! I suspect you will spend 4 years in college, 5 years in the industry gaining knowledge and experience, and several more years perfecting your business..see you in 2019. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems I would agree with you except he told me my mount would be shipped one week then the next week I called and he told me the metal shipment was due in a few days and he would be building it that week and then ship it for me. Now that my friend was a bold face lie. What he needs is competition. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: No Title From: "Larry Portouw" Stray voltage (It's early). Has anyone ever tried a twist throttle on the stick? - 601zv(at)ritternet.com wrote: > Me too. I was mistakenly thinking of the single center stick situation - a > bit of mind warp apparently translated dual stick into single stick. I'm > doing the single stick and don't see a practical way to avoid the dual > throttle. > > Do not archive. > > --- -------- Larry Portouw 601XL Kit (H. Stab) PA-22 N8141C Fort Huachuca, AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93896#93896 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:08 AM PST US From: Chris Ross Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 50 Msgs - 02/08/07 Yes. I ordered one about a month ago and received it within a week. Chris Ross Weighing Options >Maybe he just needs more help. > >Is it safe to say that at least ordering the book should be no problem? > >-------- >CH601XL - Corvair ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:02 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: No Title I think a twist grip throttle works great on a motorcycle. For an airplane where you want the throttle to stay at exactly the same place for hours at a time, this is not a good idea. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 05:30 AM 2/9/2007, you wrote: >Stray voltage (It's early). Has anyone ever tried a twist throttle >on the stick? - ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:52 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems What WW need is a good parts distributor. Someone who could buy his inventory wholesale and then retail it and keep track of back orders. In this case William would concentrate on making parts and give support, and the distributor will conentrate on resell and distribution. I don't know how close to production cost WW sell his parts, if this is the case, such distributor will have to raise prices a little bit. So, is there anyone with some cash, ready for a business oportunity. The hardes part would be convincing WW. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Gary Boothe wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } ..What he needs is competition. OKyou made your point..If thats the way you feel, then go for it!! I suspect you will spend 4 years in college, 5 years in the industry gaining knowledge and experience, and several more years perfecting your business.see you in 2019. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section --------------------------------- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:04 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems I would agree with you except he told me my mount would be shipped one week then the next week I called and he told me the metal shipment was due in a few days and he would be building it that week and then ship it for me. Now that my friend was a bold face lie. What he needs is competition. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Drilling plastic lens From: caspainhower@aep.com Instead of buying special bits or sharpening them backwards why not just use a unibit? They are fast and make a perfect hole with no chance of cracking the plastic/plexi. Every builder should have at least on set of unibits. Craig N601XS, 601xl, lyc 0-235, completing FWF, ready for wiring. > Here are three methods that have worked for me. > > 1 Buy bits made for drilling Plexiglas > 2. Use any standard bit, BUT.. sharpen it BACKWARDS. This means grind the > "rake" backwards. Normally a bit is ground with the cutting edge "higher" > than the relieved, trailing edge. Grind it backwards by making the "cutting > edge", lower than the trailing edge. The bit has to "burn" it's way thru > the Plexiglas, rather than "cut" it's way thru. > 3. Run a drill backwards ---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:40 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. From: "ashontz" When is it best to start doing this, after the two top and bottom skins and on and clecoed (but not riveted), and before the nose skin is even messed with? Anybody have and timelines as to when they did all they internal work. -------- CH601XL - Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93909#93909 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:27 AM PST US From: "Charles Wacker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: If you go with the dual sticks you can have one throttle in the center of the panel. This is what i am doing. If you go with thestock center stick setup the center throttle would be a pain to use. That is why the center stick has two throttles on both sides of the cockpit. Chuck Wacker 610XL Quick Build >From: Hans van Riet >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:57:41 -0800 > > >Hi Gang, > >I just ordered the Rudder starter kit to see if I'm fit to build a 601Xl >(preferably on amphibian floats). >I've been studying tons of web resources and admired many projects. >One thing strikes me as odd though and maybe your collective wisdom can >shed some light on this: > >I see double throttles on many panels. Why is this done? Would one central >throttle with the dual stick option not be sufficient? > >Thanks, > >Hans > > _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:16 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Convincing WW that he needs a middleman to increase prices would be impossible. He is quite aware that the problem is with production and that the time and cost involved in the distribution part is insignificant in comparison. This thread has been hashed over and rehashed many times on the Corvair list, and related posts would more appropriately be directed there instead to the Zenith list. Just my 2-cents worth. Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Dominguez To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:21 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems What WW need is a good parts distributor. Someone who could buy his inventory wholesale and then retail it and keep track of back orders. In this case William would concentrate on making parts and give support, and the distributor will conentrate on resell and distribution. I don't know how close to production cost WW sell his parts, if this is the case, such distributor will have to raise prices a little bit. So, is there anyone with some cash, ready for a business oportunity. The hardes part would be convincing WW. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Gary Boothe wrote: ...What he needs is competition.. OK.you made your point...If that's the way you feel, then go for it!! I suspect you will spend 4 years in college, 5 years in the industry gaining knowledge and experience, and several more years perfecting your business..see you in 2019. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:04 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems I would agree with you except he told me my mount would be shipped one week then the next week I called and he told me the metal shipment was due in a few days and he would be building it that week and then ship it for me. Now that my friend was a bold face lie. What he needs is competition. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:29 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Raymond, There was a dual ignition paper by Paul Messenger which converted a single pickup and module distributor to dual pickups and used externalized modules. I have a copy of that data if you're interested. I used that information to convert my Subaru to dual ignition. If that's what you need, contact me off line (larry@macsmachine.com). Point type ignition is another matter. Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com do not archive raymondj wrote: > Does any one have the specs. and process details for building and > testing the dual points distributor? > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:41 AM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. I did most of my stuff after riveting the bottom skin. I would drill your entire top skin to A5, finish the wing tip, and then have at it. I also worked on my nose skin and fuel tank before running the wires/tubes. I bought nylon conduit from Vans and ran it the length of the wing just behind the baggage locker. (On that note - make sure you know where the back of the locker is before you run your wires so that they are clear.) I ran this conduit about an inch below the top of the wing. I ran tubing for AOA/pitot near the bottom. The big conduit used grommets 931-14-20 (I think - that is from memory - the 14-20 is definitely right). The conduit is fantastic for easily running wires. You can cut small holes in it along the way if you are installing aileron trim or a heated pitot. Have fun. Michael in NH - finishing the second wing this weekend come hell or high water On 2/9/07, ashontz wrote: > > > When is it best to start doing this, after the two top and bottom skins > and on and clecoed (but not riveted), and before the nose skin is even > messed with? Anybody have and timelines as to when they did all they > internal work. > > -------- > CH601XL - Corvair > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:48 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. I did my plumbing & wiring after I had the bottom skin riveted and the top skin drilled out for rivets, but off the frame. As I recall, the nose skin was clecoed to the bottom of the nose ribs, but open on top. Jay in Dallas Do not archive "ashontz" wrote: > >When is it best to start doing this, after the two top and bottom skins and on and clecoed (but not riveted), and before the nose skin is even messed with? Anybody have and timelines as to when they did all they internal work. > >-------- >CH601XL - Corvair > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93909#93909 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. From: "Tim Juhl" If you want to lose a bunch of altitude in a hurry without overspeeding the aircraft try a slip. I fly a Aeronca L16A which has no flaps and don't really miss them. When I put it into a slip it comes down like a rock (without gaining airspeed) - as soon as I release the slip I'm back flying at my desired attitude and airspeed. The flat side of the XL should make it slip pretty good. My understanding is that the flaps were added to the XL to get the stall speeds within the light sport category. That said, when my plane is done I'm sure I'll use flaps on approach. I will also experiment (at altitude) with slips with flaps extended as well as the ability of the aircraft to hold altitude and climb with full flaps. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93939#93939 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:14 AM PST US From: "BadBob" Subject: Zenith-List: I re-read my post and it had a little 'bite' to it that I didn't intend. I guess I should 'proof read' my comments! LOL How do I get hold of Falcon to get some head work done? Thanks, Bob form Oregon ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:25 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: No Title With one of the cruise controls off a Goldwing? In a message dated 2/9/2007 8:31:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Larry@portouw.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Portouw" Stray voltage (It's early). Has anyone ever tried a twist throttle on the stick? - 601zv(at)ritternet.com wrote: > Me too. I was mistakenly thinking of the single center stick situation - a > bit of mind warp apparently translated dual stick into single stick. I'm > doing the single stick and don't see a practical way to avoid the dual > throttle. > > Do not archive. > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:58 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. I did the wiring and plumbing after the bottom skin was riveted. This was the point when I installed the navigation lights and strobes as well as the pitot and LRI probes. Paul XL fuselage At 06:38 AM 2/9/2007, you wrote: > >When is it best to start doing this, after the two top and bottom >skins and on and clecoed (but not riveted), and before the nose skin >is even messed with? Anybody have and timelines as to when they did >all they internal work. > >-------- >CH601XL - Corvair - ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems From: "Gig Giacona" I've ordered three items from WW. First, the manual a couple of years ago. I got it in a week or two. 4 or 5 months ago I ordered the engine mount. Got it in 3 weeks. Then I called him in October to talk about ordering a complete engine. We talked on the phone for over 30 minutes most of which was spent with him trying to talk me out of him building my engine. He talked me into going to the Corvair College that was happening the next month. I learned a lot. Got to fly in a few Corvair powered aircraft. In the end I decided that while I could do it if I had to I would be better off with him building my engine. As I said before I took the 6 to 8 weeks quote with a grain of salt. I also figured this out. WW is an engineer he's not a salesman and he isn't an organizational whiz. If I could give him one piece of business advise it would be to hire a manager and let the manager do the scheduling and delivery time quotes. His operation is basically a 2 or 3 man, 1 woman and 1 cat shop. His sales have increased dramatically, he is still doing R&D on many of the things he is going to offer and a lot of the stuff that goes into his product comes from other sources that he doesn't have a lot of control over. If you didn't understand this going in YOU didn't do your homework. I'd be willing to bet that if you had called him and placed your order and he had told you that he wasn't sure when you would get the product you would have been on here bitching that WW dosen't have a product and the whole Corvair engine thing is hype. If you can't live with the delays I'd suggest you go with a Lycoming, Rotax or Jabariu. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93955#93955 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:07 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Well since I am building a zenith it is appropriately directed. In a message dated 2/9/2007 10:05:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 601zv@ritternet.com writes: Convincing WW that he needs a middleman to increase prices would be impossible. He is quite aware that the problem is with production and that the time and cost involved in the distribution part is insignificant in comparison. This thread has been hashed over and rehashed many times on the Corvair list, and related posts would more appropriately be directed there instead to the Zenith list. Just my 2-cents worth. Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:52 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems I also saw a dual point that was for the corvair that wasn't William's some where but can't remember where at the moment. In a message dated 2/9/2007 10:14:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, larry@macsmachine.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Raymond, There was a dual ignition paper by Paul Messenger which converted a single pickup and module distributor to dual pickups and used externalized modules. I have a copy of that data if you're interested. I used that information to convert my Subaru to dual ignition. If that's what you need, contact me off line (larry@macsmachine.com). Point type ignition is another matter. Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:59 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Once again let me repeat myself so the ONES WITH GLASSES CAN SEE IT!!! WILLIAM AND MYSELF HAD A LONG TALK ABOUT MY PROJECT AND I TOLD HIM I WAS ALMOST READY FOR FWF HE ASSURED ME I WOULD NOT HAVE TO WAIT ON PARTS. If he would have told me it would be months after his quoted time frame I would have made another choice SO HE IS A SALESMAN. In a message dated 2/9/2007 12:10:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wr.giacona@cox.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" I've ordered three items from WW. First, the manual a couple of years ago. I got it in a week or two. 4 or 5 months ago I ordered the engine mount. Got it in 3 weeks. Then I called him in October to talk about ordering a complete engine. We talked on the phone for over 30 minutes most of which was spent with him trying to talk me out of him building my engine. He talked me into going to the Corvair College that was happening the next month. I learned a lot. Got to fly in a few Corvair powered aircraft. In the end I decided that while I could do it if I had to I would be better off with him building my engine. As I said before I took the 6 to 8 weeks quote with a grain of salt. I also figured this out. WW is an engineer he's not a salesman and he isn't an organizational whiz. If I could give him one piece of business advise it would be to hire a manager and let the manager do the scheduling and delivery time quotes. His operation is basically a 2 or 3 man, 1 woman and 1 cat shop. His sales have increased dramatically, he is still doing R&D on many of the things he is going to offer and a lot of the stuff that goes into his product comes from other sources that he doesn't have a lot of control over. If you didn't understand this going in YOU didn't do your homework. I'd be willing to bet that if you had called him and placed your order and he had told you that he wasn't sure when you would get the product you would have been on here bitching that WW doesn't have a product and the whole Corvair engine thing is hype. If you can't live with the delays I'd suggest you go with a Lycoming, Rotax or Jabariu. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:29 AM PST US From: "Herbert Heaton" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Drilling wing spars Wade, I used a laser level to set the dihedral of the outer spar to the center spar. Fit your outer spar to the center spar and lay flat on your workbench. Tape the laser level to the bottom of the center spar with the laser pointing toward the wing tip. Measure the distance from the laser beam to the bottom of the outer spar where it meets the center spar and add this to the dimension you calculate at the tip. 6-W-4, lower right corner gives you all the measurements you need to calculate the rise for the 5.65 deg angle. A scale held at the end of the spar will allow you to set the angle within 1/2 mm. Good luck, Herb >From: "wade jones" >To: >Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling wing spars >Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:11:02 -0600 > >Hello Group ,I am ready to drill the 5/16 holes in my center spar and the >wing spars on a 601XL .I have just bought a 5/16 reamer and a 9/32 drill >bit .I have received some good advise from Dave Clay as he has recently >completed this task . Any additional advise or tips from fellow scratch >builders that may help me on this task would be greatly appreciated . >Thanks >Wade Jones South Texas >601XL plans building >Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:27 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Zenith-List: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Apparently you have a finished airframe waiting on the FWF, so I can certainly understand your frustration. If you would post on the CorvAircraft list what you have available, I bet you will quickly find someone happy to take what Corvair stuff you have off your hands, and you can move on to Rotax, Jab, or whatever makes your horn toot quick. CorvAircraft list info is at http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Once again let me repeat myself so the ONES WITH GLASSES CAN SEE IT!!! WILLIAM AND MYSELF HAD A LONG TALK ABOUT MY PROJECT AND I TOLD HIM I WAS ALMOST READY FOR FWF HE ASSURED ME I WOULD NOT HAVE TO WAIT ON PARTS. If he would have told me it would be months after his quoted time frame I would have made another choice SO HE IS A SALESMAN. do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:37 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. Many builders have strongly recommended leaving the rear and middle top skins clecoed until the very last moment possible to preserve access for wiring and rigging. I think that is the only reasonable way to proceed. Also, quite a few builders recommend making all or at least part of the front top skin removeable via nutplates or U-clips or J-clips and screws. I think that is a very good idea unless you are young and skinny and flexible enough to wriggle into the rudder pedal are upside down and face up to do any inspection or repair work between the panel and the firewall. I possess none of the aforementioned attributes so I will be installing a crapload of nutplates to allow removal of the entire front top skin. If you accept this advice and do the same you will have little or no access issues when you do plumbing, wiring and rigging. Remember to plan so that once the rear and middle top skins are rivetted, critical things like connectors and turnbuckles can be accessed from some removeable hatch, fairing or from the cockpit. Dred 601XL/Jabiru/middle top skin ---- Paul Mulwitz wrote: > I did the wiring and plumbing after the bottom skin was > riveted. This was the point when I installed the navigation lights > and strobes as well as the pitot and LRI probes. > > Paul > XL fuselage > > At 06:38 AM 2/9/2007, you wrote: > > > >When is it best to start doing this, after the two top and bottom > >skins and on and clecoed (but not riveted), and before the nose skin > >is even messed with? Anybody have and timelines as to when they did > >all they internal work. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:18 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Throttle and stick configuration Guys..... at the risk of stating the obvious, the K.I.S.S. rules applies here, big-time. The more complicated the throttle linkage gets, the more likely you are to have a serious inflight malfunction or failure. The fairly simple dual throttle linkage or in my case, the simple and rugged dual stick option seem completely trustworthy and dependable. Now a twist grip throttle or an electronic cruise control device???? I wouldn't try that. Dred ---- NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: > > With one of the cruise controls off a Goldwing? > > Larry@portouw.com writes: > > Stray voltage (It's early). Has anyone ever tried a twist throttle on the > stick? - > > 601zv(at)ritternet.com wrote: > > Me too. I was mistakenly thinking of the single center stick situation - a > > bit of mind warp apparently translated dual stick into single stick. I'm > > doing the single stick and don't see a practical way to avoid the dual > > throttle. > > > > Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:47 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems As I said in a previous post Gordon that is at WW hanger told me my stuff would be ready for pick up tomorrow. I don't want to sell what I have got or switch engine's I really do like the corvair and I have nothing against William other than the fact that he made promises to me that he didn't follow thru with. I will be the first to tell you he has done some great things for aviation and if you order your parts when you start your project you might not have a problem. My case is a little different and he has caused me a 2 month delay in getting my project flying. It is to late to turn back the clock and switch engine's. I will let everyone know if I do get my parts tomorrow and I will be sure to let you know if I don't. I was always taught a man's word is his bond .... have we all forgotten that? do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:51 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. Stupid me.... I just realized we're talking about wings, not fuselage. Excuse the brain fart. Dred ---- Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > > I did my plumbing & wiring after I had the bottom skin riveted and the top skin drilled out for rivets, but off the frame. As I recall, the nose skin was clecoed to the bottom of the nose ribs, but open on top. > > Jay in Dallas > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:46 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Throttle and stick configuration Dred, It was a joke about the cruise control!!!!!! In a message dated 2/9/2007 1:33:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dredmoody@cox.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Guys..... at the risk of stating the obvious, the K.I.S.S. rules applies here, big-time. The more complicated the throttle linkage gets, the more likely you are to have a serious inflight malfunction or failure. The fairly simple dual throttle linkage or in my case, the simple and rugged dual stick option seem completely trustworthy and dependable. Now a twist grip throttle or an electronic cruise control device???? I wouldn't try that. Dred ---- NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: > > With one of the cruise controls off a Goldwing? > > Larry@portouw.com writes: > > Stray voltage (It's early). Has anyone ever tried a twist throttle on the > stick? - > > 601zv(at)ritternet.com wrote: > > Me too. I was mistakenly thinking of the single center stick situation - a > > bit of mind warp apparently translated dual stick into single stick. I'm > > doing the single stick and don't see a practical way to avoid the dual > > throttle. > > > > Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:11 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. Dred, I'd recommend you not use nutplates, but do use u-nuts and j-nuts to do the forward top skin. Too much effort in installing nut plates and little room to work with if you have a header tank at the firewall and instruments at the other. The cost versus effective holding, repair, replacement and install really favors 6-32 u-nut/j-nut installation in this particular area. Well said, you're going to appreciate the ease of access anyway. There are ways to make it easier to remove the fwd top skin too. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com dredmoody@cox.net wrote: > > Many builders have strongly recommended leaving the rear and middle top skins clecoed until the very last moment possible to preserve access for wiring and rigging. I think that is the only reasonable way to proceed. Also, quite a few builders recommend making all or at least part of the front top skin removeable via nutplates or U-clips or J-clips and screws. I think that is a very good idea unless you are young and skinny and flexible enough to wriggle into the rudder pedal are upside down and face up to do any inspection or repair work between the panel and the firewall. I possess none of the aforementioned attributes so I will be installing a crapload of nutplates to allow removal of the entire front top skin. > > If you accept this advice and do the same you will have little or no access issues when you do plumbing, wiring and rigging. Remember to plan so that once the rear and middle top skins are rivetted, critical things like connectors and turnbuckles can be accessed from some removeable hatch, fairing or from the cockpit. > > Dred > 601XL/Jabiru/middle top skin > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:20 AM PST US From: "BadBob" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems I re-read my post and it had a little 'bite' to it that I didn't intend. I guess I should 'proof read' my comments! LOL How do I get hold of Falcon to get some head work done? Thanks, Bob form Oregon ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:03 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. Hi Tim, I understand the choice between using deep slips and flaps for creating a steep approach to landing. I am not sure either one has much advantage over the other one. Of course if you have a plane with no flaps you have no choice. I guess the slip choice can be a little unnerving on inexperienced passengers, but I am not sure if this is an advantage or disadvantage. The situation is a little different with takeoff. A little flaps - perhaps 10 degrees - can greatly shorten your ground roll and might even allow you to climb at a higher angle. This option doesn't exist on a plane with no flaps. The situation I ran into while building my XL showed me several things about the kit and plans. 1. The design has recently been changed to limit the flap deflection to 20 degrees instead of the 30 degrees the XL has had since its first prototype. This was done without any mention to the buyer community - just a change that kit and plan buyers learn about as they reach that stage of building. Perhaps the only reason for this change was to allow the elevator trim to neutralize the pitch with full flaps - something that apparently was not possible with 30 degrees of flaps. According to my current flight instructor and fellow local EAA club member, this is a very important quality for a plane to have and is indeed required for part 23 certification. His explanation talked about having a bee chase you around the cockpit on approach so you let go of the stick to defend yourself. This change certainly had nothing to do with LSA stall speeds since they are specified without the use of flaps. 2. The flap control design is very sensitive to the vertical position of the long control tube that connects the two flaps. If this tube is mounted too low (as on my first attempt) then there is a collision between the large channel the tube is mounted on and the steel tube extension on the linear motor actuator. This seems like a really bad problem to me. The location of the control tube is not specified on the prints. Instead, it is determined by a long string of events that lead to the exact location of the wing trailing edge. I plan to suggest this specification be changed to help following builders avoid the problem I had. 3. Reports from current XL owners indicate 20 degrees of flap deflection is sufficient for their flying needs and 30 is just plain overkill. I suppose that means it is reasonable to accept the new design from ZAC even though it could have been changed in a more public way. 4. As always, support from ZAC has been excellent. In this case, Caleb spent time on this problem including several communications and parts of several days of effort. Paul XL fuselage At 08:16 AM 2/9/2007, you wrote: > >If you want to lose a bunch of altitude in a hurry without >overspeeding the aircraft try a slip. I fly a Aeronca L16A which >has no flaps and don't really miss them. When I put it into a slip >it comes down like a rock (without gaining airspeed) - as soon as I >release the slip I'm back flying at my desired attitude and >airspeed. The flat side of the XL should make it slip pretty good. > >My understanding is that the flaps were added to the XL to get the >stall speeds within the light sport category. > >That said, when my plane is done I'm sure I'll use flaps on >approach. I will also experiment (at altitude) with slips with >flaps extended as well as the ability of the aircraft to hold >altitude and climb with full flaps. > >Tim > >--- ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:04 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Mark (Falcon) 2043 S Fish Hatchery Road Oregon, WI 53575 (608) 835-3317 In a message dated 2/9/2007 2:06:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, badbob0007@earthlink.net writes: I re-read my post and it had a little 'bite' to it that I didn't intend. I guess I should 'proof read' my comments! LOL How do I get hold of Falcon to get some head work done? Thanks, Bob form Oregon ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:34 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. Thanks for the input Larry. I am pretty hard-headedly set on the nutplates. I have a lot of experience in setting them..... I have dimpling and solid rivet squeezing equipment and I like the way they work. You are most certainly correct about them taking more time, more money, and more effort, but I'm okay with that. The skin to airframe conatct and support is superior with the nutplate as opposed to a cilp nut.... a small point but a valid one all the same. No header tank in my 601XL. I'm running two Facet pumps in the wing roots, then on to the selector valve, then Gascolator, inline filter, mechanical pump, then carb. May need a pressure regulator but I won't know that until I test the system. I plan on dimpling for flathead screws mostly for the esthetics, but also to avoid any canopy weatherseal interferrance. My dad and I are having a good time together working on this and while flying is the ultimate goal, timing doesn't trump everything else in the equation for us. Dred Do Not Archive ---- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > Dred, > I'd recommend you not use nutplates, but do use u-nuts and j-nuts to do > the forward top skin. Too much effort in > installing nut plates and little room to work with if you have a header > tank at the firewall and instruments at the other. > The cost versus effective holding, repair, replacement and install > really favors 6-32 u-nut/j-nut installation in this particular area. > Well said, you're going to appreciate the ease of access anyway. There > are ways to make it easier to remove the fwd top > skin too. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > dredmoody@cox.net wrote: > > > > Many builders have strongly recommended leaving the rear and middle top skins clecoed until the very last moment possible to preserve access for wiring and rigging. I think that is the only reasonable way to proceed. Also, quite a few builders recommend making all or at least part of the front top skin removeable via nutplates or U-clips or J-clips and screws. I think that is a very good idea unless you are young and skinny and flexible enough to wriggle into the rudder pedal are upside down and face up to do any inspection or repair work between the panel and the firewall. I possess none of the aforementioned attributes so I will be installing a crapload of nutplates to allow removal of the entire front top skin. > > > > If you accept this advice and do the same you will have little or no access issues when you do plumbing, wiring and rigging. Remember to plan so that once the rear and middle top skins are rivetted, critical things like connectors and turnbuckles can be accessed from some removeable hatch, fairing or from the cockpit. > > > > Dred > > 601XL/Jabiru/middle top skin > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:34 AM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: VGs feathers on an 801 I finally got time to add 100 VGs to my tail to see if that makes a difference. It did not seem to make a difference. Here is a summary of my testing. I only stalled the plane 3 or 4 times in each configuration. The numbers should be within a mile an hr or two. The winds have been light when I have done the testing. I used GPS speeds. To calculate air speeds at high altitudes I assumed the plane's speed would increase 3% per 1000' rise in altitude. Removed Leading Edge Slats off the CH 801 Installed home made VGs 10% of chord and at a 45 degree angle Stall clean 55 Stall dirty 43 Cruise I 108 MPH GPS 103 MPH Density altitude at 3000' +500' Cruise at 4500' Standard day 115 MPH Installed feathers at 10% of chord at 12 degrees Stall clean 51 Stall dirty 45 Cruise I 110 MPH GPS 104 MPH Density Altitude at 3000' +1500 Cruise at 4500' Standard day 113 MPH Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees Stall clean 50 Stall dirty 45 Cruise not measured Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees Removed large VGs from tail installed 100 smaller home made VGs at a 15 degree angle Stall clean 50 Stall dirty 45 Cruise I 105 MPH GPS 103 Density altitude at 3000' +1000' Cruise at 4500' standard day 114 MPH Take off and landing distances are definitely longer. They are a lot shorter than a Cessna but... If you factor the cruise to 6000' you would be 122 MPH. The plane seems slipperier. Not like a Bonanza or Mooney but more slippery that it was. Before VGs I used 50 as my final approach speed now I need to use 58 mph. Is loosing 8 mph on the bottom end worth gaining 10 mph on the top end? Bill Wilcox N801BW 280 hrs Valdez, Ak Scratching head contemplating installing fairings to lift struts, fixing gas tank leak and installing new engine driven fuel pump and electric fuel pump. Does maintenance ever end? ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:35 AM PST US From: Gary Briggs Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NEED TO FINISH MY PLANE William Wynne problems Bob, I have been waiting on a nosebowl I ordered last March (2006). If I were waiting on a manual or a DVD it wouldn't be any big deal. Like the originator of this thread, I have committed to the corvair conversion (and have a completed engine) and just want to get the part(s) I ordered and paid for so I can complete my project. When you pay a seller for an item, they have a responsibility to provide the item in a reasonable amount of time. That is the way things are expected to work. I'm glad you got your manual and DVD on time. Why don't you order a dozen nosebowls, (since you get parts on time) you could kick the price up a hundred bucks and sell them to builders who have been waiting for months on their orders. Gary -- ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:01 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. just -pleace a bottom hatch, they are in the plans. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: dredmoody@cox.net >Sent: Feb 9, 2007 1:24 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. > > >Many builders have strongly recommended leaving the rear and middle top skins clecoed until the very last moment possible to preserve access for wiring and rigging. I think that is the only reasonable way to proceed. Also, quite a few builders recommend making all or at least part of the front top skin removeable via nutplates or U-clips or J-clips and screws. I think that is a very good idea unless you are young and skinny and flexible enough to wriggle into the rudder pedal are upside down and face up to do any inspection or repair work between the panel and the firewall. I possess none of the aforementioned attributes so I will be installing a crapload of nutplates to allow removal of the entire front top skin. > >If you accept this advice and do the same you will have little or no access issues when you do plumbing, wiring and rigging. Remember to plan so that once the rear and middle top skins are rivetted, critical things like connectors and turnbuckles can be accessed from some removeable hatch, fairing or from the cockpit. > >Dred >601XL/Jabiru/middle top skin > >---- Paul Mulwitz wrote: >> I did the wiring and plumbing after the bottom skin was >> riveted. This was the point when I installed the navigation lights >> and strobes as well as the pitot and LRI probes. >> >> Paul >> XL fuselage >> >> At 06:38 AM 2/9/2007, you wrote: >> > >> >When is it best to start doing this, after the two top and bottom >> >skins and on and clecoed (but not riveted), and before the nose skin >> >is even messed with? Anybody have and timelines as to when they did >> >all they internal work. > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:10 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: central throttle with dual stick is common sense, look at pipers beech cessna etc, dual steering , central throttle. you guys kill me Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Robin Bellach <601zv@ritternet.com> >Sent: Feb 8, 2007 4:06 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: > > >Doesn't that get awkward when landing? > >Do not archive. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:35 PM >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: > > >> >> Hans, >> >> I am building 601XL with dual sticks and I am planning to use a single, >> centrally mounted throttle. >> >> Jay in Dallas >> Do not archive >> >> Hans van Riet wrote: >> >>> >>>Hi Gang, >>> >>>I just ordered the Rudder starter kit to see if I'm fit to build a >>>601Xl (preferably on amphibian floats). >>>I've been studying tons of web resources and admired many projects. >>>One thing strikes me as odd though and maybe your collective wisdom >>>can shed some light on this: >>> >>>I see double throttles on many panels. Why is this done? Would one >>>central throttle with the dual stick option not be sufficient? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Hans >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb From: "dougsire" I saw where the NTSB report on the fatal 601XL accident last February in Oakdale, CA has been completed. It doesn't list a probable cause and it didn't necessarily answer the questions I had. -------- Doug Sire 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94011#94011 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:15 PM PST US From: "Steve Shuck" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb I agree, there is nothing said about a missing bolt or nut on the rear wing spar as reported from a Canadian Zenith dealer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "dougsire" Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:30 PM Subject: Zenith-List: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb > > I saw where the NTSB report on the fatal 601XL accident last February in > Oakdale, CA has been completed. It doesn't list a probable cause and it > didn't necessarily answer the questions I had. > > -------- > Doug Sire 601XL > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94011#94011 > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Need a BRS? From: "aprazer" Beech does make a pretty good bird, but have you looked at the Navion? -------- The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94014#94014 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:17 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I have the center Y stick and a single throttle on the left side of the panel. I deleted the second throttle on the right because I didn't plan to fly it from the right seat and I determined that someone flying from that seat could reach across to the throttle on the left if necessary. I also don't have brakes on the right. The single throttle simplifies construction a bit. > > I'm doing the single stick and don't see a practical way to avoid the > dual throttle. > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:21 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Need a BRS? On the topic of BRS.... I got this link in my office email today: http://www.turbopilot.com/copa/image3/brs.wmv John in Seattle On 2/9/07, aprazer wrote: > > > Beech does make a pretty good bird, but have you looked at the Navion? > > -------- > The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94014#94014 > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:49 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. I would suggest drilling all the holes first, there's less chance of drilling into any of the plumbing or wiring. After that the plumbing and wiring can be done anytime before final closure. The control cables can be routed through even after closure, I just fished a piece of string through with a broom handle and used the string to pull the cables through during final construction. > > When is it best to start doing this, after the two top and bottom skins and on and clecoed (but not riveted), and before the nose skin is even messed with? Anybody have and timelines as to when they did all they internal work. > > -------- > CH601XL - Corvair -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:40 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. I'd have to agree, you can put in full rudder and plenty of opposite aileron and drop the plane in like a brick. Full flaps will bring the nose down for better visibility over the nose during final approach but, for most runways, they aren't really necessary. The plane can easily be landed fully loaded with no flaps in less than 1200 feet or so. > > If you want to lose a bunch of altitude in a hurry without overspeeding the aircraft try a slip. I fly a Aeronca L16A which has no flaps and don't really miss them. When I put it into a slip it comes down like a rock (without gaining airspeed) - as soon as I release the slip I'm back flying at my desired attitude and airspeed. The flat side of the XL should make it slip pretty good. > > My understanding is that the flaps were added to the XL to get the stall speeds within the light sport category. > > That said, when my plane is done I'm sure I'll use flaps on approach. I will also experiment (at altitude) with slips with flaps extended as well as the ability of the aircraft to hold altitude and climb with full flaps. > > Tim > > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:41 PM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. Forgive me if this is slightly off topic, but I spotted an ad for Kapton tubing the other day in one of my engineering newsletters. The stuff is very light and thin, and carries a fire resistant rating. It may not be as cheap as the stuff from Lowe's aviation supply, but for lightness I would it is worth a look. I worked with this stuff years ago, and perhaps for out aircraft, it might make a good conduit choice. Try a Google on Kapton tube. Craig Smith _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Valentine Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Wing plumbing and wiring and control cables. I did most of my stuff after riveting the bottom skin. I would drill your entire top skin to A5, finish the wing tip, and then have at it. I also worked on my nose skin and fuel tank before running the wires/tubes. I bought nylon conduit from Vans and ran it the length of the wing just behind the baggage locker. (On that note - make sure you know where the back of the locker is before you run your wires so that they are clear.) I ran this conduit about an inch below the top of the wing. I ran tubing for AOA/pitot near the bottom. The big conduit used grommets 931-14-20 (I think - that is from memory - the 14-20 is definitely right). The conduit is fantastic for easily running wires. You can cut small holes in it along the way if you are installing aileron trim or a heated pitot. Have fun. Michael in NH - finishing the second wing this weekend come hell or high water ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:54 PM PST US From: Jim Logajan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Need a BRS? John Marzulli wrote: > On the topic of BRS.... > > I got this link in my office email today: > > http://www.turbopilot.com/copa/image3/brs.wmv That's quite amazing - thanks for passing it on! Jim Logajan ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:27 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Throttle and stick configuaration Many have most of their experience in aircraft that you control pitch and roll with the right hand and power with the left. (Piper J-3, Bell Huey, 1-26 glider). It seems natural. Some years ago, a retired fighter pilot was checking out in an executive jet. He landed hard while doing a go around. Old habits led him to "apply power" pushing forward with his left hand and pulling back with his right to "pitch up". I worried that I would have the same problem with a Luscombe that I bought. They have dual sticks and center throttle. Happy to report that there was no problem and it immediately felt normal. I say don't fret about it but build it fool proof. Bob Lyc XL (tail feathers) dual sticks ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:39 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb The report goes into some detail about the main spar attachment bolts but doesn't even mention the rear bolts. That seems like a significant omission. Steve Shuck wrote: > > I agree, there is nothing said about a missing bolt or nut on the rear > wing spar as reported from a Canadian Zenith dealer. > > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:53 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Composite Landing Gears from Aircraft Spruce Does anyone have experience with this type of landing gear? Looks like a big weight saving. Click here: Composite Landing Gears from Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/compositelg.php ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:33 PM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: VGs feathers on an 801 Aren't VGs on the tail surfaces used for correcting control issues, not for changing stall speeds? Craig Smith _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keystone Engineering LLC Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 2:36 PM Subject: Zenith-List: VGs feathers on an 801 I finally got time to add 100 VGs to my tail to see if that makes a difference. It did not seem to make a difference. Here is a summary of my testing. I only stalled the plane 3 or 4 times in each configuration. The numbers should be within a mile an hr or two. The winds have been light when I have done the testing. I used GPS speeds. To calculate air speeds at high altitudes I assumed the plane's speed would increase 3% per 1000' rise in altitude. Removed Leading Edge Slats off the CH 801 Installed home made VGs 10% of chord and at a 45 degree angle Stall clean 55 Stall dirty 43 Cruise I 108 MPH GPS 103 MPH Density altitude at 3000' +500' Cruise at 4500' Standard day 115 MPH Installed feathers at 10% of chord at 12 degrees Stall clean 51 Stall dirty 45 Cruise I 110 MPH GPS 104 MPH Density Altitude at 3000' +1500 Cruise at 4500' Standard day 113 MPH Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees Stall clean 50 Stall dirty 45 Cruise not measured Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees Removed large VGs from tail installed 100 smaller home made VGs at a 15 degree angle Stall clean 50 Stall dirty 45 Cruise I 105 MPH GPS 103 Density altitude at 3000' +1000' Cruise at 4500' standard day 114 MPH Take off and landing distances are definitely longer. They are a lot shorter than a Cessna but... If you factor the cruise to 6000' you would be 122 MPH. The plane seems slipperier. Not like a Bonanza or Mooney but more slippery that it was. Before VGs I used 50 as my final approach speed now I need to use 58 mph. Is loosing 8 mph on the bottom end worth gaining 10 mph on the top end? Bill Wilcox N801BW 280 hrs Valdez, Ak Scratching head contemplating installing fairings to lift struts, fixing gas tank leak and installing new engine driven fuel pump and electric fuel pump. Does maintenance ever end? ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:26 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Composite Landing Gears from Aircraft Spruce I just sent mine back to Aircraft Spruce today. It is a 2 pc set that requires you make up and design custom attachment brackets. I purchased the NK-07 for my CH701, had a lot of hassle returning them, told them that they are not a direct replacement. They look nice, seem to be of good quality, but not worth my effort to convert to my already flying plane. Bob Spudis N701ZX In a message dated 2/9/2007 5:32:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, MaxNr@aol.com writes: Does anyone have experience with this type of landing gear? Looks like a big weight saving. _Click here: Composite Landing Gears from Aircraft Spruce_ (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/compositelg.php) http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/compositelg.php ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:19 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb Here is a link to the report for anyone who wants to read it: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX06LA105&rpt=fa Paul XL fuselage At 12:30 PM 2/9/2007, you wrote: > >I saw where the NTSB report on the fatal 601XL accident last >February in Oakdale, CA has been completed. It doesn't list a >probable cause and it didn't necessarily answer the questions I had. > >-------- >Doug Sire 601XL > > - ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:30 PM PST US From: Jim Logajan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Need a BRS? John Marzulli wrote: > On the topic of BRS.... > > I got this link in my office email today: > > http://www.turbopilot.com/copa/image3/brs.wmv Here's what appears to be the full cockpit video from collision to touchdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_JAg1ZedGo According to the comments, he was flying a Rans S6. Also, the CNN video was also posted to YouTube, and based on the dates of those postings this appears to have been reported back in December (around Christmas) of last year. ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:43 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: VGs feathers on an 801 115 mph in cruise out of a 801... WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!! you are the man, !!! !!!!!!!! With one stout engine for sure... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Keystone Engineering LLC wrote: I finally got time to add 100 VGs to my tail to see if that makes a diff erence. It did not seem to make a difference. Here is a summary of my testing. I only stalled the plane 3 or 4 times in each configuration. The numbers should be within a mile an hr or two. The winds have been l ight when I have done the testing. I used GPS speeds. To calculate air speeds at high altitudes I assumed the plane's speed would increase 3% per 1000' rise in altitude. Removed Leading Edge Slats off the CH 801 Installed home made VGs 10% of chord and at a 45 degree angle Stall clean 55 Stall dirty 43 Cruise I 108 MPH GPS 103 MPH Density altitude at 3000=92 +500=92 Cruise at 4500=92 Standard day 115 MPH Installed feathers at 10% of chord at 12 degrees Stall clean 51 Stall dirty 45 Cruise I 110 MPH GPS 104 MPH Density Altitude at 3000=92 +1500 Cruise at 4500=92 Standard day 113 MPH Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees Stall clean 50 Stall dirty 45 Cruise not measured Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees Removed large VGs from tail installed 100 smaller home made VGs at a 15 degree angle Stall clean 50 Stall dirty 45 Cruise I 105 MPH GPS 103 Density altitude at 3000=92 +1000=92 Cruise at 4500=92 standard day 114 MPHTake off and landi ng distances are definitely longer. They are a lot shorter than a Cessn a but... If you factor the cruise to 6000' you would be 122 MPH. The pl ane seems slipperier. Not like a Bonanza or Mooney but more slippery th at it was. Before VGs I used 50 as my final approach speed now I need to use 58 mph. Is loosing 8 mph on the bottom end worth gaining 10 mph on the top end? Bill WilcoxN801BW280 hrsValdez, AkScratching head conte mplating installing fairings to lift struts, fixing gas tank leak and in stalling new engine driven fuel pump and electric fuel pump. Does maint enance ever end?

115 mph in cruise out of a 801... WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!! you are the man, !!!!!!!!!!!  With one stout engine for sure...

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- Keystone Engineering LLC <keystone @gci.net> wrote:

I finally got time to add 100 VGs to my tail to see if that makes a difference.  It did not seem to make a difference.  Here is a summary of my testing.  I only stalled the plane 3 or 4 times in each configuration.  The numbers should be within a mile an hr or two.  The winds have been light when I have done the testing.  I used GPS speeds.  To calculate air speeds at high altitudes I as sumed the plane's speed would increase 3% per 1000' rise in altitude.&nb sp;

 

Removed Leading Edge Slats off the CH 801

 

Installed home made V Gs 10% of chord and at a 45 degree angle

Stall clean        & nbsp;   55

Stall dirty        & nbsp;   43

Cruise   & nbsp;         I 108 MPH G PS 103 MPH

Density altitude at 3 000=92     &nb sp;      +500=92

Cruise at 4500=92 Sta ndard day                 115 MPH

 

Installed feathers at 10% of chord at 12 degrees

Stall clean        & nbsp;   51

Stall dirty        & nbsp;   45

Cruise I 110 MPH&nbs p;   GPS 104 MPH

Density Altitude at 3 000=92     &nb sp;      +1500

Cruise at 4500=92 Sta ndard day                 113 MPH

 

Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees

Stall clean        & nbsp;   50

Stall dirty        & nbsp;   45

Cruise not measured

 

Installed Feathers at 6% of chord at 12 degrees

Removed large VGs fro m tail installed 100 smaller home made VGs at a 15 degree angle

Stall clean        & nbsp;   50

Stall dirty        & nbsp;   45

Cruise I 105 MPH    GPS 103

Density altitude at 3 000=92      &n bsp;      +1000=92

Cruise at 4500=92 stan dard day           &n bsp;     114 MPH
Take off and landing d istances are definitely longer.  They are a lot shorter than a Cessna but...
 
If you factor the cruise to 6000' you would be 122 MPH.  The plane seems slipperier.  Not like a Bonanza or Mooney but more slip pery that it was. 
 
Before VGs I used 50 as my final approach speed now I need to use 58 mph. 
 
Is loosing 8 mph on the bottom end worth gaining 10 mph on th e top end?
 
Bill Wilcox
N801BW
280 hrs
Valdez, Ak
Scratching head contemplating installing fairings to lift struts, fixing gas tank leak and installing new engine driven fuel pump and elec tric fuel pump.  Does maintenance ever end?
________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:50 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bob- This is a response that TOTALLY has nothing to do with flying. You still have some tweaking to do with the wordage of your posts. I mean, really, who's this babe Falcon? POSTITIVELY DO NOT ARCHIVE Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: BadBob To: Zenith-List@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:31 AM Subject: Zenith-List: I re-read my post and it had a little 'bite' to it that I didn't intend. I guess I should 'proof read' my comments! LOL How do I get hold of Falcon to get some head work done? Thanks, Bob form Oregon ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:23 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. From: "Tim Juhl" In aircraft with flaps, I routinely use them on landing. When I had my C182 I also preferred using 20 on takeoff when light, even on paved runways - "up, up and away!" You are right about slips with passengers aboard.... I always make that part of the briefing. I've made approaches to the local city airport where citizens have come racing to the field convinced that the "funny flying" airplane had crashed after viewing my slip on approach. I like slips because you can lose a lot of altitude without building up a lot of extra speed or having to make dramatic power reductions. Some guys who find themselves too high chop the power, drop the flaps and push the nose over....an altogether unsatisfactory situation in my view.... I like to keep my engine warm and happy and avoid long power off descents (shock cooling.) Paul, I found your comments most interesting. I'm going to file them away for when I get to that part of the build. I got my kit last May so I assume I'm one of those who has the 20flap travel although the plans still call for 30. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94063#94063 ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb From: "Tim Juhl" I believe the probable cause is yet to come. The factual report is the raw data collected from examination of the accident. Conclusions have yet to be made public. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94064#94064 ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:09 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: WW All- The question is, did WW intend to go into mass production from the get-go, or was he putzing around his shop, came up with an idea and enormous demand evolved without warning? All of us have a mod of our own. Who knows how to build it? You, maybe one or two other people. Everyone finds out about it and they want one. All of a sudden you have have orders coming out the ying yang, but who's qualified to fill them? Sounds suspiciously like the background of recent posts. The inconsistant delivery times are a mystery, though. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:32 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: WW I also follow the RV-10 list. There's a guy that came up with a axle extension that was better than the factory. He made a few and the word got out via the -10 list. People kept asking for just one more. These are a machined product, from special steel. He offered to make a "few" for those who wanted them. He set a cut off order date (in two weeks) and figured he would get maybe 20 ordered. With three days to go he had 250 ordered and people are still e-mailing him to get on the waiting list. He now asks that people order WAY in advance...like when they order the first part of the kit and he's trying to fill orders on a who needs them first. So far it's worked BUT I bet there's are a few that WANT theirs NOW and will not be in a position to NEED them for months if not years. "Build the field and they will come". KABONG N561FS Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: WW All- The question is, did WW intend to go into mass production from the get-go, or was he putzing around his shop, came up with an idea and enormous demand evolved without warning? All of us have a mod of our own. Who knows how to build it? You, maybe one or two other people. Everyone finds out about it and they want one. All of a sudden you have have orders coming out the ying yang, but who's qualified to fill them? Sounds suspiciously like the background of recent posts. The inconsistant delivery times are a mystery, though. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuselage Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:20 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: WW Hi Bill, No one starts out with a thought to "mass production" at our level of activity. The knowledge that allows a person to produce a few items that turn into product rarely are more than a hobby at first. Then, as you say, all hell breaks loose if you don't throttle it. Most of us that have orders for things are behind and have a wait list, only sometimes realistic, but most of the time money is not accepted until the buyer is told the product is ready to ship. Harder to do with the cost of an engine, but a waiting list is often better than having people become frustrated bankers for future work. No question, WW is honest and hard working and life has overloaded his plate, but he will come thru. I'd imagine he feels a lot of the same pressure as those who've ordered from him. Two weeks or two months is not a long time in this business. Hiring people is even more pressure and finding extra talent is another kind of problem. It's probably wise to be patient and thankful that WW is there to help you get a proper Corvair conversion. It's a great little engine. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > The question is, did WW intend to go into mass production from the > get-go, or was he putzing around his shop, came up with an idea > and enormous demand evolved without warning? > All of us have a mod of our own. Who knows how to build it? > You, maybe one or two other people. Everyone finds out about it and > they want one. All of a sudden you have have orders coming out the > ying yang, but who's qualified to fill them? Sounds suspiciously like > the background of recent posts. > The inconsistant delivery times are a mystery, though. > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuselage > Townville, Pa > *======================================== > > * ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:17 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Flaps: Maximum down deflection. Why not try a speed brake somewhere under the center fuselage? -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:22 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb NTSB report page is no good if your computer cannot open an "asp" file. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:27 PM PST US From: "Rich" <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> Subject: Zenith-List: I have a new set of parts! Ok List, Just bragging! I went and picked up my fuselage kit form the freight warehouse today! Sweet! I had to get through the inventory today (No problems!) and tear down the create. I have another wood pile again! My thanks to Zenith on making delivery to make a satisfied customer. The story; I called to find out if the shipping date was still set. They said it would be about a week late. I mentioned that I wanted to know since I would be incapacitated for a short time period in the coming weeks and was wanting to get thins put away. They called back in a few days with letting me know that they would make the date for me. Then the day before the shipping date, they called to let me know the parts actually shipped! (A day early!) Anyhow, I am tickled I have a new batch of parts, put away and ready for assembly. Thanks again to the folks in mexico, MO. Grinning big, Rich Simmons 601XL Fuse bottom. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:43 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NTSB Report on 601XL last Feb Actually the link ends up opening a PDF (Adobe Acrobat) file. A common format also used for the Zenith photo assembly guides. Get the free reader here: www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html -- Craig ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.