---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/25/07: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:56 AM - Re: wow... web site usage. (ashontz) 2. 05:50 AM - Newbie Questions (John C. Edwards) 3. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: Re: Engines (Bryan Martin) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Re: Engines (n801bh@netzero.com) 5. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: wow... web site usage. (Bryan Martin) 6. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Re: Engines (n801bh@netzero.com) 7. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: wow... web site usage. (ZodieRocket) 8. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Re: Engines (n801bh@netzero.com) 9. 07:50 AM - Re: Newbie Questions (Bryan Martin) 10. 08:24 AM - Re: Newbie Questions (John C. Edwards) 11. 08:58 AM - Re: Newbie Questions (Tim Juhl) 12. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Re: Engines (BadBob) 13. 10:50 AM - Re: CH701 Landing Lights (alex_001) 14. 10:53 AM - Re: CH701 Landing Lights (alex_001) 15. 11:01 AM - Re: Newbie Questions (Terry Phillips) 16. 11:23 AM - Registration (Jaybannist@cs.com) 17. 11:37 AM - Re: Registration (R.P.) 18. 11:52 AM - Re: Newbie Questions (Jeff) 19. 11:58 AM - Re: Newbie Questions (NYTerminat@aol.com) 20. 12:07 PM - Re: Registration (Paul Mulwitz) 21. 12:31 PM - Re: Jury struts (Mike Hoffman) 22. 12:33 PM - Re: 701 Jury Struts (Mike Hoffman) 23. 12:49 PM - Re: Registration (Bryan Martin) 24. 02:53 PM - Fw: THE NEW BENZ (Richard Cottingham) 25. 03:00 PM - Good tip (wade jones) 26. 03:26 PM - Registration (Jaybannist@cs.com) 27. 03:34 PM - Re: Good tip (NYTerminat@aol.com) 28. 03:45 PM - Scratch building Update (Ron Lendon) 29. 03:49 PM - Zenith List:The New Benz [Off Topic] (Richard Cottingham) 30. 04:00 PM - XL - Wing root trimming (Tim Juhl) 31. 04:35 PM - Re: Zenith List:The New Benz [Off Topic] (Randy Stout) 32. 04:35 PM - Re: XL - Wing root trimming (george may) 33. 04:46 PM - Re: Good tip (Lynn & Nancy) 34. 08:09 PM - Registration related (Brad DeMeo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: wow... web site usage. From: "ashontz" Tim Juhl wrote: > As an official "old geezer" (started my career before computers and ended it as a school tech director) I must say that the web is a wonderful thing. Sure there is a lot of junk out there but when you sift thru the sites there is an incredible amount of info available. Sites like yours are a great help to those of us who are building (or contemplating) building an aircraft. I ran a network link for my laptop out to my workshop so I can study selected builders sites when I bump into a question or obstacle. Builder's sites and this discussion group make building so much easier than it would have been before the internet age. Thanks to all for sharing! > > Tim I used to be down on the Internet. When it first came out it seemed like a glorified Yellow Pages to me. It is pretty amazing how much valuable info is out there though. I'm surprised the government hasn't shut it down yet considering the amount of factual information that flies in the face of their mainstream media propaganda machine. -------- CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97178#97178 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:35 AM PST US From: "John C. Edwards" Subject: Zenith-List: Newbie Questions I just joined this group in search of answers to a couple of questions on the 601 XL. My apologies if these are answered somewhere on the zenithair.com website, but I was unable to find them, and my questions submitted to the website went unanswered. (I guess they are busy). I am considering purchasing the tail kit first, and then see how things go before purchasing a Quick Build kit. (First time builder). Is there any difference between the Quick Build tail kit and the standard tail kit? I assume I can subtract the cost of the tail kit from the QB when I finally order. Is that true? My second question is on Night/IFR and I was curious about engine choices. I understand that Lycoming, Continental, and the certified version of the Rotax is OK for building a 601XL IFR platform, but I was uncertain about the Jabiru 3300. Does the Jabiru qualify for night and IFR? Any concerns or other suggestions? Thanks, John Edwards Tool gathering ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:21 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Engines Those numbers will come down a bit when you take into account the forward speed of the airplane. But still, that would be one noisy airplane. Ben's neighbors must really love him. :) On Feb 25, 2007, at 6:24 PM, BadBob wrote: > >> On Feb 25, 2007, at 12:53 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: >> >> I have had my prop at 1.2 mach. In fact it gets over mach >> everytime I >> fl >> y. 76" three blade inflight adjustable Ivo. 160+ hours and the >> tips look >> as good as the day I installed them. >> do not archive > > WOW!!! At 70 degrees F that is 3400rpm for Mach 1.0 and at Mach 1.2 > that > is around 4100rpm! I am surprised that the prop can take that! > > Bob from Oregon. :-) -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:26 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Engines I should clarify that the 1.2 number was from my 84" blades at -31 f her e in Jackson Hole. Take 4700 motor rpm , redrive ratio of 1.43-1 = 321 6.78, Whats that mach number ?? I haven't seen 70 degrees since last oc t.. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- BadBob wrote: =C2=A8I have had my prop at 1.2 mach. In fact it gets over mach everytim e I fl y. 76" three blade inflight adjustable Ivo. 160+ hours and the tips look as good as the day I installed them.=C2=A8 do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com WOW!!! At 70 degrees F that is 3400rpm for Mach 1.0 and at Mach 1.2 that is around 4100rpm! I am surprised that the prop can take that! Bob from Oregon. :-) ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

I should clarify that the 1.2 number was from my 84" blades at -31 f here in Jackson Hole. Take 4700 motor rpm , redrive ratio of 1.43- 1 = 3216.78, Whats that mach number ??  I haven't seen 70 degrees since last oct.. <G>

do not archive 


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspo werair.com

-- BadBob <badbob0007@earthlink.net>&n bsp;wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by:& nbsp;BadBob <badbob0007@earthlink.net>

=C2=A8I ha ve had my prop at 1.2 mach. In f act it gets over mach everytime I
fl
y. 76" three blade inflight adjustable Iv o. 160+ hours and the tips look
 a s good as the day I installed them.=C2 =A8
do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
ww w.haaspowerair.com

WOW!!! At 70 degrees F&nbs p;that is 3400rpm for Mach 1.0 and at  Mach 1.2 that
is around 4100rpm! I&nbs p;am surprised that the prop can take  ======================== ======================== sp;    - The Zenith-List Email F p;List utilities such as the Subscriptions  ======================== ========================       - NEW MATRONICS WEB&n ======================== ======================== ========
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:34 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: wow... web site usage. There's also a lot of bulls**t out there in the internet, you have to learn how to sort the good from the bad. But I guess that applies to most things. On Feb 25, 2007, at 7:55 AM, ashontz wrote: > I used to be down on the Internet. When it first came out it seemed > like a glorified Yellow Pages to me. It is pretty amazing how much > valuable info is out there though. I'm surprised the government > hasn't shut it down yet considering the amount of factual > information that flies in the face of their mainstream media > propaganda machine. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:57 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Engines Thats why I don't run the 84" blades anymore at those speeds. Close ne ighbors to the airport are mostly motorheads so the engine itself is mus ic to them. The real issue is JAC is the only airport located in a Natio nal park and us locals do try to keep the racket down to a mininum. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Bryan Martin wrote: t> Those numbers will come down a bit when you take into account the forward speed of the airplane. But still, that would be one noisy airplane. Ben's neighbors must really love him. :) On Feb 25, 2007, at 6:24 PM, BadBob wrote: > >> On Feb 25, 2007, at 12:53 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: >> >> =A8I have had my prop at 1.2 mach. In fact it gets over mach >> everytime I >> fl >> y. 76" three blade inflight adjustable Ivo. 160+ hours and the >> tips look >> as good as the day I installed them.=A8 >> do not archive > > WOW!!! At 70 degrees F that is 3400rpm for Mach 1.0 and at Mach 1.2 > that > is around 4100rpm! I am surprised that the prop can take that! > > Bob from Oregon. :-) -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

Thats why I don't run the 84" blades anymore at those spee ds.   Close neighbors to the airport are mostly motorheads so the engine itself is music to them. The real issue is JAC is the only ai rport located in a National park and us locals do try to keep the racket down to a mininum.

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net& gt; wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted  ;by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>

Those numbers will come down a bit w hen  you take into account the  
forward speed of the airplane. But sti ll, that would be one noisy  
airp lane. Ben's neighbors must really  love&nb sp;him. :)

On Feb 25, 2007, at 6:24  PM, BadBob wrote:
>
>> On Feb&n bsp;25, 2007, at 12:53 AM, n801bh@netzero.com&n bsp;wrote:
>>
>> =A8I have had my& nbsp;prop at 1.2 mach. In fact it get s over mach  
>> everytime I
& gt;> fl
>> y. 76" three blade  inflight adjustable Ivo. 160+ hours and th e  
>> tips look
>>  as& nbsp;good as the day I installed them.=A8< BR>>> do not archive
>
> WOW!!!&nb sp;At 70 degrees F that is 3400rpm fo r Mach 1.0 and at Mach 1.2  
> that
> is around 4100rpm! I am& nbsp;surprised that the prop can take that !
>
> Bob from Oregon. :-)

--&nbs p;
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM  Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.

< ========================          - The Ze atronics List Features Navigator to browse
_ -= the many List utilities such as  sp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Lis ======================== sp;          - NE at content now also available via the  ======================== =================
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:07 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: wow... web site usage. Bryan , is it truly that much different then walking into the old timers hanger and listening to the stories there? You all know that hanger, it is the gathering place of friends, some who know it all and others who have done it all. IT is just easier to separate the B.S. when you can see the mouth it come out of then when it is written on the web. But in most cases it all has a tidbit of usefulness. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com do not archive -----Original Message----- There's also a lot of bulls**t out there in the internet, you have to learn how to sort the good from the bad. But I guess that applies to most things. Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. -- 2/24/2007 8:14 PM -- 2/24/2007 8:14 PM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:39 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Engines My bad,,,, the real speed is 106%, let the flame wars begin........ do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "n801bh@netzero.com" wrote: I should clarify that the 1.2 number was from my 84" blades at -31 f her e in Jackson Hole. Take 4700 motor rpm , redrive ratio of 1.43-1 = 321 6.78, Whats that mach number ?? I haven't seen 70 degrees since last oc t.. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- BadBob wrote: =C2=A8I have had my prop at 1.2 mach. In fact it gets over mach everytim e I fl y. 76" three blade inflight adjustable Ivo. 160+ hours and the tips look as good as the day I installed them.=C2=A8 do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com WOW!!! At 70 degrees F that is 3400rpm for Mach 1.0 and at Mach 1.2 that is around 4100rpm! I am surprised that the prop can take ===== ======================== ===================sp; - The Ze nith-List Email Fp;List utilities such as the Subscriptions ==== ======================== ==================== - NEW MATRONICS WEB&n=================== ======================== ============ ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ========================

My bad,,,,  the real speed is 106%,

let the flame wars begin........

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>  wrote:

I should clarify that the 1.2 number was from my 84" blades at -31 f here in Jackson Hole. Take 4700 motor rpm , redrive ratio of 1.43-1 = 3216.78, Whats that mach number ??  I haven't seen 70 degrees since last oct.. <G>

do not archive 


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspo werair.com

-- BadBob <badbob0007@earthlink.net>&n bsp;wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by:& nbsp;BadBob <badbob0007@earthlink.net>

=C2=A8I ha ve had my prop at 1.2 mach. In f act it gets over mach everytime I
fl
y. 76" three blade inflight adjustable Iv o. 160+ hours and the tips look
 a s good as the day I installed them.=C2 =A8
do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
ww w.haaspowerair.com

WOW!!! At 70 degrees F&nbs p;that is 3400rpm for Mach 1.0 and at  Mach 1.2 that
is around 4100rpm! I&nbs p;am surprised that the prop can take  ;======================== ======================== sp;    - The Zenith-List Email F p;List utilities such as the Subscriptions  ;======================== ========================       - NEW MATRONICS WEB&a mp;n======================= ======================== =========



========================
===========
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
========================
===========
tronics.com
========================
===========
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:49 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Newbie Questions The quick build kit comes with the tail already riveted together. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk.html The standard tail kit now comes with horizontal tail skins pre- drilled. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-price.html There is also the starter kit, which includes just the rudder. I assume this is much like it's always been, where you have to drill and deburr all the holes yourself and trim the skins to fit. This kit is designed to introduce the builder to the skills needed to build the rest of the airplane. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/rudder.html You can buy the rudder kit or attend the rudder workshop to see if you really want to build the rest of the plane. Then if you decide to continue, you can order the quick build kit and Zenith can send it minus the rudder and deduct the cost of the rudder so you can install your already completed rudder. The nice thing about Zenith is you can scratch build the whole plane from plans or scratch build part of it and order any parts you would rather not scratch build or build from component kits or any combination of these. As far as night and IFR are concerned, if you are planning on registering it as an amature built, the engine chioce makes no difference at all as far as the FAA is concerned. You just have to have the necessary instruments and equipment onboard to comply with the night or IFR regulations. I believe this also applies to E-LSA. The engine choice only matters for S-LSA. On Feb 25, 2007, at 8:49 AM, John C. Edwards wrote: > I am considering purchasing the tail kit first, and then see how > things go > before purchasing a Quick Build kit. (First time builder). Is > there any > difference between the Quick Build tail kit and the standard tail > kit? I > assume I can subtract the cost of the tail kit from the QB when I > finally > order. Is that true? > > My second question is on Night/IFR and I was curious about engine > choices. > I understand that Lycoming, Continental, and the certified version > of the > Rotax is OK for building a 601XL IFR platform, but I was uncertain > about the > Jabiru 3300. Does the Jabiru qualify for night and IFR? Any > concerns or > other suggestions? -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:24 AM PST US From: "John C. Edwards" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Newbie Questions > As far as night and IFR are concerned, if you are planning on > registering it as an amature built, the engine chioce makes no > difference at all as far as the FAA is concerned. You just have to > have the necessary instruments and equipment onboard to comply with > the night or IFR regulations. I believe this also applies to E-LSA. > The engine choice only matters for S-LSA. Thanks Bryan, As I understand it now, the engine manufacturing operating instructions on limiting the use to VFR only (e.g. Rotax 912UL) applies to S-LSA and not E-LSA. Great! The more I learn about experimental aircraft, the more I like. Thanks for the information on the tail kit also. I just completed the EAA Sports Air workshop on sheet metal, so I was ready to go beyond the rudder and onto the full tail assembly. But considering it's already riveted on the QBK, I might as well go for the QBK and be in the air that much sooner. John Edwards N5806L - KCOI do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Newbie Questions From: "Tim Juhl" I took the EAA Sheet metal workshop and a rudder workshop at CanZac in neighboring Ontario. I found the rudder workshop to be more helpful in understanding what I was getting into regarding building an XL, whereas the EAA class taught me some techniques (dimpling, flush riveting, etc.) that I have also found helpful. One tool I added that is not on the ZAC list is a rivet squeezer with a mix of squeeze dies and dimplers. One benefit of the rudder kit is you get exposed to reading and interpreting the plans and pictorial guide that ZAC uses for the building process. Why don't you try the rudder kit or better yet, attend a class? I think it would help and you would pick up some good info. Also, visit www.ch601.org - there is good stuff there, especially how to cut aluminum with an Olfa knife (thanks David & Mark!) Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97217#97217 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Re: Engines From: BadBob I show 3200rpm if my math is correct. Thats still Mach 1.146.....thats amazing! I have never had to figure Mach at temps that cold!! BBRRRRRRRR!!! LOL Bob in Oregon ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH701 Landing Lights From: "alex_001" i have installed 12v halogen bulbs from home on my 601 same could be done on 701 mounted them in a perspex housing total costs 3,--usd Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97232#97232 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0018_120.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH701 Landing Lights From: "alex_001" pic 2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97233#97233 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0016_184.jpg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:55 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Newbie Questions I just started putting together my slow-build rudder kit which I picked up at the factory in November 2006. The main spar and the trailing edge skin have prepunched pilot holes for all the rivets. The pilot holes and the holes in the ribs, doublers, and nose skin are drilled out and deburred before riveting. If you do not attend the rudder workshop, the MetalWorking 101 DVD from HomebuiltHELP.com is an excellent resource to introduce novices to building. It is well worth the cost. At 10:50 AM 2/25/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >The quick build kit comes with the tail already riveted together. >http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk.html > >The standard tail kit now comes with horizontal tail skins pre- drilled. >http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-price.html > >There is also the starter kit, which includes just the rudder. I >assume this is much like it's always been, where you have to drill >and deburr all the holes yourself and trim the skins to fit. This kit >is designed to introduce the builder to the skills needed to build >the rest of the airplane. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/rudder.html > >You can buy the rudder kit or attend the rudder workshop to see if >you really want to build the rest of the plane. Then if you decide to >continue, you can order the quick build kit and Zenith can send it >minus the rudder and deduct the cost of the rudder so you can install >your already completed rudder. > >The nice thing about Zenith is you can scratch build the whole plane >from plans or scratch build part of it and order any parts you would >rather not scratch build or build from component kits or any >combination of these. > >As far as night and IFR are concerned, if you are planning on >registering it as an amature built, the engine chioce makes no >difference at all as far as the FAA is concerned. You just have to >have the necessary instruments and equipment onboard to comply with >the night or IFR regulations. I believe this also applies to E-LSA. >The engine choice only matters for S-LSA. > > >On Feb 25, 2007, at 8:49 AM, John C. Edwards wrote: > >>I am considering purchasing the tail kit first, and then see how >>things go >>before purchasing a Quick Build kit. (First time builder). Is >>there any >>difference between the Quick Build tail kit and the standard tail >>kit? I >>assume I can subtract the cost of the tail kit from the QB when I >>finally >>order. Is that true? >> >>My second question is on Night/IFR and I was curious about engine >>choices. >>I understand that Lycoming, Continental, and the certified version >>of the >>Rotax is OK for building a 601XL IFR platform, but I was uncertain >>about the >>Jabiru 3300. Does the Jabiru qualify for night and IFR? Any >>concerns or >>other suggestions? > > >-- >Bryan Martin >N61BM, CH 601 XL, >RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. >do not archive. Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT Just starting a 601 kit ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:18 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Registration Listers, a question: It is my understanding that iIf a Zodiac 601XL is registered "Experimental," it can be flown as an LSA or as any other experimental airplane and the builder can do all the maintenance by filling out a form. If it is registered "E-LSA," it can be flown only as an LSA and the builder must attend a course on maintenance to qualify to do maintenance. Why would anyone register a 601XL as E-LSA? Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:12 AM PST US From: "R.P." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Registration > > Listers, a question: > It is my understanding that iIf a Zodiac 601XL is registered > "Experimental," it can be flown as an LSA or as any other experimental > airplane and the builder can do all the maintenance by filling out a form. > > If it is registered "E-LSA," it can be flown only as an LSA and the > builder must attend a course on maintenance to qualify to do maintenance. > > Why would anyone register a 601XL as E-LSA? > > Jay in Dallas The only advantage(?) that I can see in Exp-LSA is *possibly* for resale. The new owner can attend the maintenance course for Exp-LSA and do his own yearly condition inspection instead of hiring an A&P mechanic. You can't do that with Exp-AB (amatuer built). Rick Pitcher Zodiac 601HD/ Exp-AB ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:48 AM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Newbie Questions RE: My second question is on Night/IFR and I was curious about engine choices. I understand that Lycoming, Continental, and the certified version of the Rotax is OK for building a 601XL IFR platform, but I was uncertain about the Jabiru 3300. Does the Jabiru qualify for night and IFR? Any concerns orother suggestions? Pete answered this way previously: "This email below is factually incorrect regarding flying Jabiru engines at night. The only application of JAR22H engine certification in the USA is for Primary Category Aircraft under 750 kg. Primary category aircraft under 750 kg can use a JAR22H engine if limited to day VFR. JAR22H does not come into play in the LSA area. Engines are compliant to ASTM F2339. Jabiru engines used in experimental amateur built aircraft can be flown in any condition that the aircraft operating limitations allow, night usually being one of them. Under a LSA certificate there is no prohibition on the part of Jabiru against night operation. There is no specific prohibition in the FAR's prohibiting night flight in S-LSA aircraft. The implied restriction is in the certificate in that it is based on ASTM F2245-04. It is stated in the scope of that standard that it applies to LSA aircraft operated day VFR. To be clear - it is not the Jabiru engine that limits an aircraft to day VFR. Pete" You can find this post and the thread leading up to it in the archives. Jeff Davidson ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:33 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Newbie Questions In a message dated 2/25/2007 11:25:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jedwards@digital.net writes: Thanks Bryan, As I understand it now, the engine manufacturing operating instructions on limiting the use to VFR only (e.g. Rotax 912UL) applies to S-LSA and not E-LSA. Great! The more I learn about experimental aircraft, the more I like. I just read an article in the Atlantic Flyer that Rotax is removing the night restriction from their UL/ Uls version of their uncertified engines and just calling it VFR. Feb 07 issue page 31. Bob Spudis


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:51 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration Hi Jay, As always, there are trade-offs. The issue regarding maintenance is actually a little better than your comments suggest. Anyone can work on any experimental aircraft no matter whether it is E-LSA or E-AB. The regulations get involved when it comes to signing off the annual condition inspection. This can always be done by an A&P with appropriate license. In the case of E-AB it can also be done by the builder if he has the repairman's certificate that can only be issued to the builder. For E-LSA there is a similar certificate that can be earned by attending a 2 day class. In this case you don't have to be the builder, but I think you need to be the owner. There is no 51% rule for E-LSA certificate. The other difference I know about is the number of hours needed to fly off the Phase 1 flight testing. This is 25 or 40 hours for E-AB certificated planes. I have seen E-LSA get as little as 5 hours of Phase 1 flight test requirement. This is the amount of flight testing you need to do before carrying passengers or leaving the limited flight test area. One last point. The question of flying "as LSA" doesn't need to consider how the plane is certified. It only matters that the performance and other qualities qualify the plane as meeting the LSA requirements. A Sport Pilot or higher licensed pilot flying under Sport Pilot privileges can fly any plane that meets the LSA definition. Similarly, a plane with an E-LSA certificate can be flown at night or IFR if properly equipped. Have fun, Paul XL fuselage > >Listers, a question: >It is my understanding that iIf a Zodiac 601XL is registered >"Experimental," it can be flown as an LSA or as any other >experimental airplane and the builder can do all the maintenance by >filling out a form. > >If it is registered "E-LSA," it can be flown only as an LSA and the >builder must attend a course on maintenance to qualify to do maintenance. > >Why would anyone register a 601XL as E-LSA? > >Jay in Dallas - ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:58 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jury struts From: "Mike Hoffman" Thanks Brett, I e-mailed Zenith with my question, appears you and I are the only people that had this problem. I wish more people would jump in on this so I don't have to wait for ZAC to answer back. Mike H Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97259#97259 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:37 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Jury Struts From: "Mike Hoffman" Hello, any body out there that can help?? :? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97260#97260 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:56 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Registration It might be a little bit easier to sell an E-LSA than an E-AB because the new owner can obtain certification to perform the annual inspections without having to be an A&P mechanic. The night and IFR restrictions apply to the Sport Pilot not to the Sport Aircraft. A sport pilot may not fly at night or IFR. A sport aircraft, if properly equipped (and, for S-LSA, approved by the airframe and engine manufacturers) can be flown at night or in IFR. http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=24 Question : Who can perform maintenance and inspections on an E-LSA? Answer : Anyone can perform maintenance, repair, or modification on an experimental light-sport aircraft. No certificate or rating of any kind is required. The annual condition inspection on E-LSA can be completed by: a) A repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating; or b) A repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a inspection rating on aircraft owned by the repairman; or c) An appropriately rated mechanic (A&P), or d) An appropriately rated repair station. http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=540 Question : i am building a kitplane which has been approved for the 51 % rule. i would like to know what all the pros and cons are whether to finally register it as e-ab or e-lsa. Answer : The only difference of any consequence in certification of the aircraft as either experimental amateur-built or experimental LSA is the issue of the repairman certificate. This certificate is necessary if an individual wishes to perform the condition inspection each year as required by the aircraft's operating limitations. (No certificate of any kind is necessary in order to perform maintenance, repair, or modification.) Here's the deal: For amateur-built aircraft, only the original primary builder is eligible for the repairman certificate. There is no training requirement. The individual simply needs to prove that he/she is the original primary builder of the aircraft. No subsequent owners are eligible, so they would have to have an A&P mechanic perform the condition inspection each year. For ELSA, the owner must attend a 16 hour course of instruction and pass a test in order to be eligible for the repairman certificate. This is true regardless of whether the person built the aircraft or not. Even the original builder would have to take this course. However, subsequent owners would be eligible for the repairman certificate after passing the 16 hour course, even though they had nothing to do with the building of the aircraft. Yes, it is true that you must have the certification completed by 31 January 2008 in order to certificate the aircraft as ELSA. There is no deadline for amateur-built certification, but you must be able to prove that amateur-builders did the major portion of the fabrication and assembly tasks. Other than the repairman certificate issue, there is no operational difference in ELSA as compared to amateur-built. On Feb 25, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > > Listers, a question: > It is my understanding that iIf a Zodiac 601XL is registered > "Experimental," it can be flown as an LSA or as any other > experimental airplane and the builder can do all the maintenance by > filling out a form. > > If it is registered "E-LSA," it can be flown only as an LSA and the > builder must attend a course on maintenance to qualify to do > maintenance. > > Why would anyone register a 601XL as E-LSA? > > Jay in Dallas -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:12 PM PST US From: "Richard Cottingham" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: THE NEW BENZ Message THE NEW BENZ ! The new Benz - Very different....really different ! ...SCROLL DOWN... This is the new Mercedes Benz SCL600. This car is really different. That's not what is different about it. That either. .....and now for the 'really different' part: Here is what is different. No steering wheel, you drive it with a joystick. No pedals either. Can you drive with a joystick? Your kids and grandkids probably can. The influence of video games in our lives has really arrived, wouldn't ya say? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Try SPAMfighter for free now! ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:20 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Zenith-List: Good tip Hello group ,I am a little slow thinking .I have been plans building for seven months and during that time I must make at least 8 or 10 trips daily from the shop to my computer to look at the CD . I have cut out this time robbing step by printing the assembly CD into a three hole binder to keep in my shop . I am too cheap to buy a used computer for this and my shop is getting crowded . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:26 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Registration Listers, Thanks to all who replied to my question about E-LSA vs Experimental. There were some aspects that I was not aware of; and others that I knew about, but hadn't thought through the implications. You all came through again and proved the value of this list. Thanks again! Jay in Dallas Do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:09 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Good tip Wade I had printed out each section too. Much easier to take the paper to your parts than taking your parts to the computer. I still had an old computer in the shop, good for e-mail and ordering parts. Bob Spudis do not archive In a message dated 2/25/2007 6:01:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wjones@brazoriainet.com writes: Hello group ,I am a little slow thinking .I have been plans building for seven months and during that time I must make at least 8 or 10 trips daily from the shop to my computer to look at the CD . I have cut out this time robbing step by printing the assembly CD into a three hole binder to keep in my shop . I am too cheap to buy a used computer for this and my shop is getting crowded . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Scratch building Update From: "Ron Lendon" Finally got the LE mistake fixed and am ready to rivet the bottom of my first wing. Oh What A Feeling :D Do Not Archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97294#97294 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:15 PM PST US From: "Richard Cottingham" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith List:The New Benz [Off Topic] Message THE NEW BENZ COOOOOL !!! The new Benz - Very different....really different ! ...SCROLL DOWN... This is the new Mercedes Benz SCL600. This car is really different. That's not what is different about it. That either. .....and now for the 'really different' part: Here is what is different. No steering wheel, you drive it with a joystick. No pedals either. Can you drive with a joystick? Your kids and grandkids probably can. The influence of video games in our lives has really arrived, wouldn't ya say? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Do Not Archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Try SPAMfighter for free now! ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: XL - Wing root trimming From: "Tim Juhl" I'm getting ready to trim the top skin and LE of my right wing root (too late for the bottom skin). I've marked it out according to the X-Y coordinates in the latest plans but haven't cut yet. I would like to know from those who went before whether you cut yours according to the plans and how well the wing conformed to the fuselage when you finished. Suggestions would be appreciated. I had some issues with the wing tip as the ZAC supplied skins were a few mm short of the max "Y" dimensions on the plans to I had to do some fudging to get it to fit right. It worked out all right in the end but required a lot of shaving and filing :-) Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97297#97297 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:21 PM PST US From: "Randy Stout" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith List:The New Benz [Off Topic] Richard I think your pictures are too big for the list. Try http://tinyurl.com/2qkey9 or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCMmQaQke0 Haven't we already seen this on this list? Randy Stout San Antonio TX www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21; http://www.mykitlog.com/r5t0ut/ n282rs at satx.rr.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:30 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL - Wing root trimming Tim-- Best plan is to cut the wing root top/nose skin about 10mm greater(longer) than the coordinates given by ZAC. Their basic outline worked OK but the overall length/fit needs to be trimmed at the time of wing to fuselarge assembly. This will be an itterative process so patience and preplanning will be required George May 601XL 912s 46-hours >From: "Tim Juhl" >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: XL - Wing root trimming >Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:59:33 -0800 > > >I'm getting ready to trim the top skin and LE of my right wing root (too >late for the bottom skin). I've marked it out according to the X-Y >coordinates in the latest plans but haven't cut yet. I would like to know >from those who went before whether you cut yours according to the plans and >how well the wing conformed to the fuselage when you finished. Suggestions >would be appreciated. > >I had some issues with the wing tip as the ZAC supplied skins were a few mm >short of the max "Y" dimensions on the plans to I had to do some fudging >to get it to fit right. It worked out all right in the end but required a >lot of shaving and filing :-) > >Tim > >-------- >DO NOT ARCHIVE >______________ >CFII >Champ L16A flying >Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A >Working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97297#97297 > > _________________________________________________________________ Win a Zunemake MSN your homepage for your chance to win! http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:37 PM PST US From: "Lynn & Nancy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Good tip Wade, I took my Photo Assembly Guide CD to Kinko's with a list of all the sections I needed. For about $55 they printed everything on punched paper, black &white, using both sides of the paper. Then I indexed each subject area and put them in ringbinders. Works well, but I still occasionally use the CD to see something in color. Lynn 601XL working on fuse ----- Original Message ----- From: NYTerminat@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Good tip Wade I had printed out each section too. Much easier to take the paper to your parts than taking your parts to the computer. I still had an old computer in the shop, good for e-mail and ordering parts. Bob Spudis do not archive In a message dated 2/25/2007 6:01:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wjones@brazoriainet.com writes: Hello group ,I am a little slow thinking .I have been plans building for seven months and during that time I must make at least 8 or 10 trips daily from the shop to my computer to look at the CD . I have cut out this time robbing step by printing the assembly CD into a three hole binder to keep in my shop . I am too cheap to buy a used computer for this and my shop is getting crowded . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at <57x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom" target="_blank">AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:21 PM PST US From: Brad DeMeo Subject: Zenith-List: Registration related I am filling out the forms for registration of my 601xl. I want to register as E-LSA. Everything is fairly simple until I get to form 8130-6 which is the "Application for U.S. Airworthiness Certificate". Under "certification requested" I check "B" - Special Airworthiness Certificate", and "4" - Experimental". Now, under "4" do I also check "2" Amateur Built" and/or "8" - "Operating Light Sport"? and "8c" - "Operating light-sport previously issued special light-sport category airworthiness certificate under 21.190"? Any help is greatly appreciated. Brad DeMeo Working on Canopy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.