---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/01/07: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:23 AM - Re: Flying into Canada (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 02:31 AM - Homemade LRI Gauge Source --Surplus Center (Doug Naylor) 3. 02:48 AM - Re: aileron trim system (David Downey) 4. 03:41 AM - Hangar door reference website (Brett Hanley) 5. 06:07 AM - Re: What does it mean? (Tim Juhl) 6. 07:13 AM - 601XL Canopy fitting process. (Gig Giacona) 7. 07:48 AM - Re: Flying into Canada (Noel Loveys) 8. 08:11 AM - Re: Flying into Canada (Noel Loveys) 9. 08:44 AM - Re: LRI versus Stall warning (Rich) 10. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: Solid riveting spar - setting solid AN6 rivets (R.P.) 11. 09:22 AM - Re: 601XL Canopy fitting process. (Jaybannist@cs.com) 12. 09:32 AM - Re: Solid riveting spar - setting solid AN6 rivets (rickpitcher) 13. 10:04 AM - Motivation (Ryan Vechinski) 14. 10:33 AM - Re: LRI versus Stall warning (Terry Turnquist) 15. 10:46 AM - Re: LRI versus Stall warning (Tim Juhl) 16. 11:00 AM - Re: LRI versus Stall warning (Craig Payne) 17. 11:15 AM - Re: Motivation (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 12:31 PM - Re: Motivation (Bill Steer) 19. 01:31 PM - Re: ID'ing Aluminum Stock...? (PatrickW) 20. 02:19 PM - Re: Hangar Doors (Tommy Walker) 21. 02:39 PM - Re: aileron trim system (Juan Vega) 22. 03:19 PM - Re: LRI versus Stall warning (JOHN STARN) 23. 03:35 PM - Re: Motivation (Ron Lendon) 24. 04:04 PM - Re: Hangar Doors (Mack Kreizenbeck) 25. 05:09 PM - Torque tube (wade jones) 26. 05:31 PM - dual throttles (mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net) 27. 05:32 PM - Re: Torque tube (Robin Bellach) 28. 07:02 PM - Re: Torque tube (Bryan Martin) 29. 07:16 PM - Re: Torque tube (Southern Reflections) 30. 08:15 PM - 601 XL Nose Rib 4 (Ron Lendon) 31. 10:02 PM - Re: Motivation (txpilot) 32. 11:05 PM - Re: Torque tube (Paul Mulwitz) 33. 11:06 PM - Re: Motivation (TxDave) 34. 11:20 PM - Re: 601 XL Nose Rib 4 (TxDave) 35. 11:33 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 36. 11:38 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:59 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flying into Canada Hi Noel, The USA doesn't have medical exams for driver's licenses. Instead there is a system that feeds information about medical conditions that preclude safe driving from the medical community to the state driver's license authorities. I don't think this happens very often - just in cases where a driver gets some condition that makes it clear that driving should not be done like frequent blackouts or debilitating strokes. (I don't know exactly how this is determined or accomplished, but I do know that some such system exists.) The Sport Pilot license is the first instance of this behind-the-scenes government intrusion into citizen's medical condition becoming "Public knowledge" - not that this information is published in the newspapers, but the notion that "Big Brother" is watching. Those exercising Sport Pilot privileges actually benefit from this knowledge since they don't need to have the hokey medical exam to exercise their pilot privileges. There is background rumor level talk of extending this to Private Pilots by eliminating the 3rd class medical requirement if the Sport Pilot program proves reasonably safe for the public. There have been many people who questioned the usefulness of all of the FAA medical exams in enhancing aviation safety for a long time. I don't think we will see these exams eliminated for commercial or air transport pilots any time soon, but it seems reasonable to me to allow the same level of protection against medically unfit pilots for passengers of private airplane operators as is given to passengers of private automobile operators. In all cases, pilots are required to "Self - certify" they are medically fit for every flight. This is not changed by the new handling of medical certificates. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 07:08 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote: >Ok I was wondering because your PPL and class 3 is accepted by >TC. I don't think the sport pilot license is an issue with TC but >the drivers license medical is. Some of us have been pushing for a >similar medical for quite some time but there is no standardization >of drivers medical requirements. Newfoundland as far as I know >doesn't even have a drivers license medical for regular drivers >licences. We do have a medical for large trucks, busses and air brakes. > > >Noel --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:33 AM PST US From: "Doug Naylor" Subject: Zenith-List: Homemade LRI Gauge Source --Surplus Center For those of you who are planning to build your own LRI (Lift Reserve Indicator) like the one on Scott Laughlin's website ( http://www.cooknwithgas.com/LRI.html ), a very inexpensive source for the DWYER Minihelic Model 2-5002 2" Water Column Gauge is the Surplus Center-- http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.aspUID 07030103400260&catname=&byKeyword=yes&search=dwyer . (Item # 21-1623) Their $11.95 price is by far the cheapest I have seen the gauges anywhere. Instructions on how to build your own LRI system can be found on the CH601.org website @: http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm -and- http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/liftreserve.htm The Surplus Center currently has over 800 of the Minihelic gauges in stock, so they shouldn't be running out any time soon, but I wouldn't wait too long at this price. Also, since the Surplus Center buys overstocks and surplus, they often don't restock items once they are gone off their shelves. Happy Building, Doug Doug Naylor dugnaylor@yahoo.com Wittman Buttercup -Corvair Powered --Got Plans and Dreams, no $ _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:05 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron trim system ..exactly. The Cub is just like virtually every jetliner out there...and the function is exactly the same as teh 601: the lift vector of teh flying surface is modified to generate thrust in the direction needed. In one case the main flying surface incidence is changed so that the new "trail" position of the attached control surface is changed (Cub/jetliner) and on the other the tab flies the control surface to a deflection that changes the mean chord line in the entire flying surface (has the effect of making a upward or downward lifting airfoil instead of a neutral, symmetrical airfoil). Same effect. nope, i thought the same thing till I want a flyin in a 601. PLane was at 2000 ft agl. with two dudes in it, it was turing slightly to the left so I hit the right trim button. Looking left expecting to see the trim tab pointing down I was surprised to see it up! SO looking at it I I pressed the left button, pushing the trim down and wow, the plane turned left!. same ion the tail. The difference between 601 and the GA piper we are used to is the trim when deflected pushes the entire surface of the control that it is attached to in the opposite direction. SO when you want to trim to go right the trim come up, pushing the aileron down, raising the wing. Trim pushes down, then you get up deflection turning the plane. On a Cub, the crank for trim lowers the leading edge of the deflecting air up, thus up trim. The trims on the 601 and 701 Move the control surface. After that, went home and swapped the neccessary wires to correct mine. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Craig Payne >Sent: Feb 28, 2007 4:38 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron trim system > > >Isn't the position of the large control surfaces actually unchanged by the >trim (dictated by the control cables or tubes). I thought the trim tabs just >deflect small amounts of air on their own. > >-- Craig > > Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:56 AM PST US From: Brett Hanley Subject: Zenith-List: Hangar door reference website Try this website.=0A =0Ahangardoorsecrets.com=0A =0AYou have to pay to ente r but worth the price. Great information on a lot of different options. G ood ideas on doing doors on the cheap. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: What does it mean? From: "Tim Juhl" Also don't forget, a user fee is technically not a tax increase. This way the administration can claim that they aren't raising taxes...... Those of us who live near Canada have had a taste of user fees. A friend flew his Arrow across southern Ontario (didn't land) to Buffalo and a few weeks later he received a bill in the mail from the corporation that now runs ATC in Canada. He had of course filed a flight plan and had talked to London Approach on his way thru. The Canadians looked up his N-number and sent him a bill. It was something like $60-70 and it covers him if he were to fly in Canada again sometime in the following three months. I feel sorry for our Canadian neighbors. The one positive thing is that the Zenith's gross weight is low enough that I believe it is exempt from fees unless you try to land and one of a selected number of "big" airports. Steven is correct..... the idiots in Washington want to "fix" what is already the best air traffic control system in the world. The FAA can't account for where all the money it's spending is going now yet they tell us that the current system won't meet their increasing financial needs. Fortunately, with the help of AOPA, EAA, NBAA etc., the congress is getting an earfull and so far seem skeptical. Just keep those cards and letters coming! Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98107#98107 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Canopy fitting process. From: "Gig Giacona" Has anyone come up with a better way to fit the canopy than the use of the plywood template as shown in 6-C-3A of the assembly manual? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98120#98120 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:19 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flying into Canada I'm hoping for either a driver's license medical here in Canada which will allow an easy reciprocal agreement that would also allow me to fly to Osh someday. My class 4 medical declaration isn't acceptable to the FAA either. Too bad we can't just lock the negotiators in a room with two pieces of paper and a BIC pen and not open the door until there is an agreement made. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Phillips Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:57 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flying into Canada Thanks, Noel I appreciate your information, and Mark's, as well, though I was hoping for the opposite result. In my experience in the US, none of the 6 states in which I've been licensed to drive do any medical checks on drivers other than vision. I can't recall what the questionnaires I filled out for drivers licenses asked about medical conditions. In any case, they were nothing like the questionnaire for the FAA Class 3 medical. But I'm just starting to build. Perhaps TC will change their position on class 3 medical vs. driver's license before I finish. I sure would like to fly my 601 to Alaska--when I get it done! Terry do not archive At 11:38 PM 2/28/2007 -0330, you wrote: Ok I was wondering because your PPL and class 3 is accepted by TC. I don't think the sport pilot license is an issue with TC but the drivers license medical is. Some of us have been pushing for a similar medical for quite some time but there is no standardization of drivers medical requirements. Newfoundland as far as I know doesn't even have a drivers license medical for regular drivers licences. We do have a medical for large trucks, busses and air brakes. Noel Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT Just starting a 601 kit ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:48 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flying into Canada That system might work except in the possible case of politicians or doctors. My father flew for many years and never actually had a medical performed. As a doctor he would only go to a friend who was the flight surgeon and say,"Here sign this." In almost twenty years his medical consisted of the flight surgeon saying, "Ok!" Politicians would be very similar... Without a medical requirement no one would want to be the one to shang-hi their drivers license. The excuse would be they were told not to drive. There is a medical requirement now but only for people over the age of 70. My father got a notice from Motor Vehicles saying he had to get a medical to renew his license. He got the medical ,,, signed. Motor Vehicles weren't convinced and requested a practical drivers test. My father who had suffered a severe stroke refused the drivers test and he was notified his license was cancelled. They also asked he return his license so they could be sure he wasn't driving. He only complied with that when he moved into a palliative care ward. About ten years ago I had my eyes examined. I had been wearing glasses for a while and it was time for a check up. After the examination he told me I was actually considered to be legally blind for driving without glasses. It was only when I turned 55 and my license had to be renewed that a corrective lenses notification turned up on my license even though the optometrist was supposed to notify the Department of Motor Vehicle Registration. Knowing the optometrist I suspect the notice went form his office the same day. Knowing Motor Vehicle Registration, it's a wonder it was ever added to my licence restriction. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 6:51 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flying into Canada Hi Noel, The USA doesn't have medical exams for driver's licenses. Instead there is a system that feeds information about medical conditions that preclude safe driving from the medical community to the state driver's license authorities. I don't think this happens very often - just in cases where a driver gets some condition that makes it clear that driving should not be done like frequent blackouts or debilitating strokes. (I don't know exactly how this is determined or accomplished, but I do know that some such system exists.) The Sport Pilot license is the first instance of this behind-the-scenes government intrusion into citizen's medical condition becoming "Public knowledge" - not that this information is published in the newspapers, but the notion that "Big Brother" is watching. Those exercising Sport Pilot privileges actually benefit from this knowledge since they don't need to have the hokey medical exam to exercise their pilot privileges. There is background rumor level talk of extending this to Private Pilots by eliminating the 3rd class medical requirement if the Sport Pilot program proves reasonably safe for the public. There have been many people who questioned the usefulness of all of the FAA medical exams in enhancing aviation safety for a long time. I don't think we will see these exams eliminated for commercial or air transport pilots any time soon, but it seems reasonable to me to allow the same level of protection against medically unfit pilots for passengers of private airplane operators as is given to passengers of private automobile operators. In all cases, pilots are required to "Self - certify" they are medically fit for every flight. This is not changed by the new handling of medical certificates. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 07:08 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote: Ok I was wondering because your PPL and class 3 is accepted by TC. I don't think the sport pilot license is an issue with TC but the drivers license medical is. Some of us have been pushing for a similar medical for quite some time but there is no standardization of drivers medical requirements. Newfoundland as far as I know doesn't even have a drivers license medical for regular drivers licences. We do have a medical for large trucks, busses and air brakes. Noel --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:11 AM PST US From: "Rich" <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI versus Stall warning List, Just a comment about LRI's, and AOA and all of the other gadgets that seem to be popping up to distract our eyes from out the window. I just read an article about looking out the window of an airplane. That is really how we learned to fly. The instruments were not second but conformation of what our seat was telling us. It can also be the direct opposite, the seat confirming what the instruments are saying. They go hand in hand (with caution). If you want it of course put it in but it was interesting enough that when I flew in the 601XL a few weeks ago, I realized that it had a pretty good LRI and AOA built into the plane itself. I think it was called wing shutter. It was evident and increased accordingly to the decrease in lift. I was impressed to say the least at the handling capabilities under 40mph. (Yes we were 2 mistakes high!) NO bad tendancies and this was experienced as well in the 801. The plane does not roll like a C152 in which I learned to fly in. I am not fussing but just commenting that for me I still want to use the "KISS" principal in the construction of what my plane. Of course, the wallet and developing technologies will also entice what it will turn out to be. Until I started reading the list (Under 100 hour pilot) I had never heard of either of these gadgets. As a recreational pilot, I am not sure but is the LRI and AOA necessary or just a nicety? Is it highly recommended by MFG of light aircraft or something to add to cause a distraction for the recreational pilot who looks out the window in most cases? Again, not a fuss but just a comment so I can better evaluate the need for the AOA or the LRI for my own knowledge! Thanks, Rich 601XL Do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:35 AM PST US From: "R.P." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Solid riveting spar - setting solid AN6 rivets ----- Original Message ----- From: "ashontz" > The bucking bar I have is pretty substantial, as is the table, even if it > is wood, but the table may be contributing to not getting a full set on > the rivet. I'll try it with the bar on the concrete floor. > Try it with the rivet gun in one hand and the bucking bar in the other, or get someone else to hold the bucking bar. That's the way I was taught many years ago, it's still the prefered method. Springs and tables are just gonna add complexity to a simple operation. Rick Pitcher millions of rivets shot, only a couple hundred drilled out ;) Lockheed, Northrop, Grumman... retired and STILL shooting rivets ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:35 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Canopy fitting process. Gig, I roughly followed the recommended procedure, but I used some of the heavy corrugated cardboard from the ZAC packing crates. It was stiff enough to do the job, and much easier to handle than plywood. It was easy to cut with a box cutter instead of a jig saw. Changes can be made easily just by moving down on the template (probably less than an inch) and re-cutting. That can be done several times before you run out of enough depth. I was dreading the fitting, too, but this made it relatively painless. Jay in Dallas "Gig Giacona" wrote: > >Has anyone come up with a better way to fit the canopy than the use of the plywood template as shown in 6-C-3A of the assembly manual? > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98120#98120 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Solid riveting spar - setting solid AN6 rivets From: "rickpitcher" ---[/quote] The bucking bar I have is pretty substantial, as is the table, even if it is wood, but the table may be contributing to not getting a full set on the rivet. I'll try it with the bar on the concrete floor.[/quote] I've been told that my posts appear blank in the web-based matronics list, so I'll repeat myself here on the web-based list... : Try it with the rivet gun in one hand and the bucking bar in the other, or get someone else to hold the bucking bar. That's the way I was taught many years ago, it's still the prefered method. Springs and tables are just gonna add complexity to a simple operation. Rick Pitcher millions of rivets shot, only a couple hundred drilled out ;) Lockheed, Northrop, Grumman... retired and STILL shooting rivets Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98153#98153 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:48 AM PST US From: Ryan Vechinski Subject: Zenith-List: Motivation Ok guys and gals. This email serves two purposes. I need to know what others do to keep motivated during a project. I've just gotten started in this whole scratch building process due to the money part of it, after completing the tail from a kit. Slow going compared to the kit! And I'm wondering if my parts are going to be alright, and if I'm making them to the right tolerances, if my bending radius is correct, if .5mm variance is ok, etc etc etc. (I don't need answers to those questions, I'm just venting :) ) So, onto the second part of this email. Part of my diminishing motivation is the fact that I'm stuck with one part. I'm working on my spar, and I can't seem to think of a way to secure the angle to the web while I'm drilling my rivet holes. It's such a long piece, and I don't want to build in a warp. What have others done during this phase? Whew. I feel a little better now. Sorry for the vent. (by the way, it's a 701) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:36 AM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI versus Stall warning Just to add more fuel to the fire, isn't the type of flying, short field, bush, etc. the determining factor in installing a LRI? Most stall/spin accidents occur in the pattern when ones trying to correct a poor setup situation and uses extreme control input to do so. Isn't it unlikely that during that type of impulse maneuver a person is going to be aware enough of the situation to be looking at another, or any instruments for that matter? Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans St. Peters, MO 63376 Rich <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> wrote: List, Just a comment about LRIs, and AOA and all of the other gadgets that seem to be popping up to distract our eyes from out the window. Again, not a fuss but just a comment so I can better evaluate the need for the AOA or the LRI for my own knowledge! Thanks, Rich 601XL Do not archive --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:25 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI versus Stall warning From: "Tim Juhl" This is not necessarily a comment about LRI's but on a problem that Rich touched on. One problem I've had to deal with when working with primary students (especially those who play MS Flight simulator or the like) is that they want to focus almost totally on the flight instruments. A kid who can make a great 45 banked 360 on instruments totally loses it when the instruments are covered up! As a result I usually cover up the AI for the first few hours. I also have them do some takeoffs and landings with the airspeed covered, a great confidence builder. Don't get me wrong, instruments offer great information, but they are not a replacement for developing basic pilot skills. I like gizmos as much as the next guy but try not to be dependent upon them. That said, I see nothing wrong in installing a LRI.... I just don't think I will. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98164#98164 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:25 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI versus Stall warning About half the AOA/LRI devices I am familiar with produce either an audible alarm or a voice alert ("angle angle push push"). Just like a stall alarm you don't have to watch it to improve safety. But when you can watch it you can improve your understanding of the performance envelope of your plane in different configurations and situations. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:12 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Motivation Hi Ryan, I am suffering from a slump myself right now. In my case the excuses range from long lead time for the engine I ordered to a lost dog and cat who just got diagnosed with diabetes. After nearly two years of building every day I guess I was due for a little slump. One of the things folks around here tend to do is build in groups. We have one group of 4 Sonex being scratch built here and another group of 4 Zodiac XLs. I don't know how they are doing but I am sure the group helps keep all of them moving. Another thing to try is join a local EAA chapter and subscribe to builder publications like Kitplanes. The regular success stories and flight reports make me want to finish my plane and go flying soon. I don't know where you are located, but wherever it is there are probably other home builders near by. I didn't build my own spars since I am building from kit, but I suppose starting by drilling small holes and opening them up while mated with Clecos would work there -- just like it does when doing thinner parts. I have never heard of folks doing it that way, but the old tried and true methods seem to work well. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 10:03 AM 3/1/2007, you wrote: > > >Ok guys and gals. This email serves two purposes. I need to know >what others do to keep motivated during a project. I've just gotten >started in this whole scratch building process due to the money part >of it, after completing the tail from a kit. Slow going compared to >the kit! And I'm wondering if my parts are going to be alright, and >if I'm making them to the right tolerances, if my bending radius is >correct, if .5mm variance is ok, etc etc etc. (I don't need answers >to those questions, I'm just venting :) ) > >So, onto the second part of this email. Part of my diminishing >motivation is the fact that I'm stuck with one part. I'm working on >my spar, and I can't seem to think of a way to secure the angle to >the web while I'm drilling my rivet holes. It's such a long piece, >and I don't want to build in a warp. What have others done during this phase? > >Whew. I feel a little better now. Sorry for the vent. > >(by the way, it's a 701) - ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:13 PM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Motivation Me, too. Seems like I've been wiring forever. And this isn't the first time. At one point, I discovered that the aft end of my fuselage was out of kilter and had to rebuild the whole thing. It took a couple of days to get to it. My 601 is my second homebuilt project. I started on the first one building "an airplane." Worked and worked, and no airplane in sight. Then I changed philosophy and viewed each part as an end product in itself. That helped a lot, and probably improved the quality of each part. Hang in there. Mistakes and a feeling of having tackled too big a job has happened to all of us. The EAA chapter idea is a good one, as is just venting on this list. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Motivation > > > Hi Ryan, > > I am suffering from a slump myself right now. In my case the excuses > range from long lead time for the engine I ordered to a lost dog and cat > who just got diagnosed with diabetes. After nearly two years of building > every day I guess I was due for a little slump. > > One of the things folks around here tend to do is build in groups. We > have one group of 4 Sonex being scratch built here and another group of 4 > Zodiac XLs. I don't know how they are doing but I am sure the group helps > keep all of them moving. > > Another thing to try is join a local EAA chapter and subscribe to builder > publications like Kitplanes. The regular success stories and flight > reports make me want to finish my plane and go flying soon. > > I don't know where you are located, but wherever it is there are probably > other home builders near by. > > I didn't build my own spars since I am building from kit, but I suppose > starting by drilling small holes and opening them up while mated with > Clecos would work there -- just like it does when doing thinner parts. I > have never heard of folks doing it that way, but the old tried and true > methods seem to work well. > > Good luck, > > Paul > XL fuselage > > > At 10:03 AM 3/1/2007, you wrote: >> >> >>Ok guys and gals. This email serves two purposes. I need to know what >>others do to keep motivated during a project. I've just gotten started in >>this whole scratch building process due to the money part of it, after >>completing the tail from a kit. Slow going compared to the kit! And I'm >>wondering if my parts are going to be alright, and if I'm making them to >>the right tolerances, if my bending radius is correct, if .5mm variance is >>ok, etc etc etc. (I don't need answers to those questions, I'm just >>venting :) ) >> >>So, onto the second part of this email. Part of my diminishing motivation >>is the fact that I'm stuck with one part. I'm working on my spar, and I >>can't seem to think of a way to secure the angle to the web while I'm >>drilling my rivet holes. It's such a long piece, and I don't want to >>build in a warp. What have others done during this phase? >> >>Whew. I feel a little better now. Sorry for the vent. >> >>(by the way, it's a 701) > > - > > > -- > 4:09 PM > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ID'ing Aluminum Stock...? From: "PatrickW" I went ahead and ordered the stock (and some other stuff) from Aircraft Spruce. Went with the 6061-T6, as in the original piece. I am going a bit larger on the "base" of the aileron bellcrank (2 inches instead of 1 inch) so as to utilize an existing line of factory drilled holes for additional rivets, instead of just drilling 3 in line to hold the bellcrank attachement onto the rib. I saw a photo on another guy's website where he did the same thing on his XL, and I believe the 1/10th of an ounce weight penalty is well worth having an extra line of rivets in this particular area. PatrickW 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98176#98176 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:20 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hangar Doors Thanks folks. I have some good ideas to follow up on. Your subscription to the Zenith-List has been extended for a year by me. I also added the Rotax-List subscription for those with a 912 on their aircraft.. Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:09 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron trim system Dave, Yeah thats it............i think. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: David Downey >Sent: Mar 1, 2007 5:47 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron trim system > >..exactly. The Cub is just like virtually every jetliner out there...and the function is exactly the same as teh 601: the lift vector of teh flying surface is modified to generate thrust in the direction needed. In one case the main flying surface incidence is changed so that the new "trail" position of the attached control surface is changed (Cub/jetliner) and on the other the tab flies the control surface to a deflection that changes the mean chord line in the entire flying surface (has the effect of making a upward or downward lifting airfoil instead of a neutral, symmetrical airfoil). Same effect. > > >nope, i thought the same thing till I want a flyin in a 601. PLane was at 2000 ft agl. with two dudes in it, it was turing slightly to the left so I hit the right trim button. Looking left expecting to see the trim tab pointing down I was surprised to see it up! SO looking at it I I pressed the left button, pushing the trim down and wow, the plane turned left!. same ion the tail. The difference between 601 and the GA piper we are used to is the trim when deflected pushes the entire surface of the control that it is attached to in the opposite direction. SO when you want to trim to go right the trim come up, pushing the aileron down, raising the wing. Trim pushes down, then you get up deflection turning the plane. On a Cub, the crank for trim lowers the leading edge of the deflecting air up, thus up trim. The trims on the 601 and 701 Move the control surface. > >After that, went home and swapped the neccessary wires to correct mine. > >Juan > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Craig Payne >>Sent: Feb 28, 2007 4:38 PM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron trim system >> >> >>Isn't the position of the large control surfaces actually unchanged by the >>trim (dictated by the control cables or tubes). I thought the trim tabs just >>deflect small amounts of air on their own. >> >>-- Craig >> >> >> >> >> > > > Dave Downey > Harleysville (SE) PA > Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? > > > >--------------------------------- >Never miss an email again! >Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:31 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI versus Stall warning It was pointed out to me that I should have identified the "We" I referred to in my post. The other half of "We" is my building partner: Retired USAF F-4 Wild Weasel Pilot Major Tom "Gummibear" Gummo. The AOA was calibrated in flight, as installed. All the red lights were On at the point of a stall. We tested in steep climbing turns, inverted etc. The lights are bright enough to see without looking "inside" and there is never the problem of a scan delay was with gages. Our unit has the option for audio warnings too but we don't use it. KABONG still Do Not Archive Well I have to go with opinions of several Naval Aviators that land on carriers, at night, pitching deck & howling winds... They pick AOA....We asked before installing AOA in HRII. Stall warnings are NOT graduated, kinda like a low oil light. It blinks under braking when it's almost too late. Three green, three yellow & four red tell you as you approach. doesn't wait till your at the point of no return to do anything. AOA, every scenario I heard so far. KABONG Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Motivation From: "Ron Lendon" I made my spars and documented the process at mykitlog.com/rlendon. Look back to about 10-13-2006 and see if it make any sense to you. I have the Spar Caps pilot drilled first then lined up the ends, of the angles, started the measuring process in the middle and worked out board from there. Let me know if you have any questions. Heading out to the EAA meeting now, I'll check back when I get back in. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98193#98193 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:21 PM PST US From: "Mack Kreizenbeck" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hangar Doors Ladies and Gentlemen: I have had a lot of experience with the doors like George Race installed in his hangar. The only thing that I can say is they become more of a maintenance nightmare the older they get. The wind also plays havoc with them -- especially the wing (end) doors. There is an old adage "you get what you pay for"! I really like the bi-folds, especially the ones with the remote control, but they are really spendy! Your best bet is the doors that roll on good size "V" type rollers and tracks. Don't archive! Mack ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:41 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Zenith-List: Torque tube Hello group ,Am I missing something with my control stick /torque tube .I can find nothing other than the cables from the elevator to keep the torque tube from coming forward .Have I missed finding a forward stop somewhere , Seems as though there should be a stop similar to the one controlling the rearward movement . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:46 PM PST US From: "mikeandlaurie3@netzero.net" Subject: Zenith-List: dual throttles Hi from Arizona. Working on IP and am stumped by dual throttles. If I run a throttle cabl e on each side of my IP, where does the friction come from? I have a cen ter stick. If I have a friction control then how does my co-pilot take o ver in an emergency? Does anyone have some pictures/drawings of their se tup? 601XL with a WW Corvair conversion. N445ML Thanks in advance for any help. Mike Clark, Prescott Valley, AZ

Hi from Arizona.

Working on IP and am stumped by dual throttles. If I run a throttle c able on each side of my IP, where does the friction come from? I have a center stick. If I have a friction control then how does my co-pilot tak e over in an emergency? Does anyone have some pictures/drawings of their setup?

601XL with a WW Corvair conversion. N445ML

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mike Clark, Prescott Valley, AZ

 
________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:28 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube I wondered about that too, but assume that the cable tension is sufficient to prevent forward movement making a positive stop not necessary. Or am I missing something too? DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: wade jones To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:08 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Torque tube Hello group ,Am I missing something with my control stick /torque tube .I can find nothing other than the cables from the elevator to keep the torque tube from coming forward .Have I missed finding a forward stop somewhere , Seems as though there should be a stop similar to the one controlling the rearward movement . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:14 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube You're not missing anything, the tension on the elevator cables will hold the tube back against the stop. On Mar 1, 2007, at 8:08 PM, wade jones wrote: > Hello group ,Am I missing something with my control stick /torque > tube .I can find nothing other than the cables from the elevator to > keep the torque tube from coming forward .Have I missed finding a > forward stop somewhere , Seems as though there should be a stop > similar to the one controlling the rearward movement . > Wade Jones South Texas > 601XL plans building > Cont. 0200 -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:16 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube Bryan,this is off sub ,but what type of cooler are you using on your ram subaru JOE N101HD ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Martin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube You're not missing anything, the tension on the elevator cables will hold the tube back against the stop. On Mar 1, 2007, at 8:08 PM, wade jones wrote: Hello group ,Am I missing something with my control stick /torque tube .I can find nothing other than the cables from the elevator to keep the torque tube from coming forward .Have I missed finding a forward stop somewhere , Seems as though there should be a stop similar to the one controlling the rearward movement . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:56 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL Nose Rib 4 From: "Ron Lendon" Just noticed the "Wait to Rivet NR #4" note in the Photo Assembly Guide. I have it riveted to both the Spar and the lower leading edge skin. Is that going to cause me a problem later when the tanks go in? Or is it OK? I wanted to ask here first for those who have already traveled this path. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98244#98244 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Motivation From: "txpilot" I think you're in a position we've all been in. I always get unmotivated when facing a challenging task, especially if I know the consequences of doing it wrong will be expensive. Hopefully, venting here has helped you some. My solution when I get stuck is simply to walk away. Do something else. Visit family and friends you've been neglecting while stuck in the garage with your project. After giving yourself time away from the project, you can approach it with a fresh mind and attitude. Second, I always keep the goal in mind. This is my first airplane (701) I've ever built. How cool will it be when it's a flying machine! If you get yourself over the current hump, you're that much closer to that goal. I just finished joining the cabin to the rear fuselage. It's a challenge to make sure everything is level with no twist in the airframe. The consequences of getting it wrong when you start drilling and clecoing could be harsh. Right before I started drilling, I was reminded of a quote from the movie "The Matrix": "There is no spoon". [Wink] Keep in mind that by working on your project, you are actually contributing to aviation. It requires motivation and patience, but it is certainly an attainable goal. Good luck, Dan P.S. - If I could keep my tolerances down to .5mm, I would be 'dancing in the streets' happy. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98258#98258 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:56 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube Hi Wade, I'm probably misunderstanding this situation. On my torque tube there is a welded steel bar on the rear end that connects to the ailerons. I don't know if this does much to keep the tube in place, but eventually it would stop forward movement. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 05:08 PM 3/1/2007, you wrote: >Hello group ,Am I missing something with my control stick /torque >tube .I can find nothing other than the cables from the elevator to >keep the torque tube from coming forward .Have I missed finding a >forward stop somewhere , Seems as though there should be a stop >similar to the one controlling the rearward movement . >Wade Jones South Texas >601XL plans building >Cont. 0200 --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Motivation From: "TxDave" Hey Ryan, I think all of us scratch builders suffer from a lack of motivation at times. Watching the progress of other builders via their websites and emailed photos is a real motivator for me. I have a core group of internet buddies. We share our triumphs and mistakes with each other. Being part of this group of people all striving for a common goal keeps me going during those slow times. I think jumping from building the tail section from a kit straight into building spars from scratch would be a real test for most people. Building the spars is one of the most challenging tasks in the whole project. You might find it more rewarding to focus on something a little easier that would yield quicker rewards. The ailerons are fairly easy, and you have those nice big finished parts finished in a relatively short period of time. You might also consider having an EAA technical counselor come look at your work. Like you, I was wondering if i was doing a good job. Having a tech counselor validate your workmanship will increase your confidence level dramatically. I'm a psychiatric nurse by trade. If I can build an airplane from scratch, anyone can! do not archive Dave Clay Temple, TX almost done with my first wing http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98261#98261 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Nose Rib 4 From: "TxDave" Welcome to the club, Ron. I riveted the #4 noserib before fitting my fuel tank. And guess what...when I went to install the tank it wasn't even close. I solved the issue by adding an extra nose rib just inboard of NR4. The new rib fits snugly next to the outboard end of the tank. Thanks for the great idea of the wing rotating device. Dave Clay Temple, TX http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98263#98263 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:48 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:57 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.