---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/07/07: 48 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:21 AM - FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Harrison-Hutcheson) 2. 05:49 AM - Re: New "European XL" from Zenith? (dfmoeller) 3. 06:18 AM - Re: Standard "L" () 4. 06:18 AM - Wake Turbulence Article (William Dominguez) 5. 07:19 AM - Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Bryan Martin) 6. 07:27 AM - Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (ashontz) 7. 07:30 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence Article (ashontz) 8. 07:45 AM - Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (rickpitcher) 9. 07:49 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence Article (Bryan Martin) 10. 07:53 AM - Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (ashontz) 11. 07:55 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence Article (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Bryan Martin) 13. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: Wake Turbulence Article (Bryan Martin) 14. 08:21 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence Article (ashontz) 15. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A () 16. 08:25 AM - Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (ricklach) 17. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Bryan Martin) 18. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A () 19. 08:39 AM - Re: New "European XL" from Zenith? (Tim Juhl) 20. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Wake Turbulence Article (Bryan Martin) 21. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Bryan Martin) 22. 09:17 AM - Re: Maximum cross wind for 801 (Larry Landucci) 23. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A () 24. 10:11 AM - Vibration (robert stone) 25. 11:08 AM - fuel tank caps (john butterfield) 26. 11:28 AM - Re: Vibration (TxDave) 27. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Paul Mulwitz) 28. 12:28 PM - Re:Faa registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (MaxNr@aol.com) 29. 01:11 PM - Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Gig Giacona) 30. 02:13 PM - Re: Re:Faa registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A (Bryan Martin) 31. 02:33 PM - homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis (Jeff Small) 32. 03:04 PM - Re: Vibration (T. Graziano) 33. 03:07 PM - Re: Transport Canada (Bill Naumuk) 34. 03:12 PM - Re: Standard "L" (Bill Naumuk) 35. 03:15 PM - Re: Standard "L" (Bill Naumuk) 36. 03:57 PM - Re: homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis (Big Gee) 37. 04:06 PM - Re: Wake Turbulence Article (Steve Hulland) 38. 04:27 PM - Re: Maximum cross wind for 801 (n801bh@netzero.com) 39. 04:32 PM - Re: step angle pattern (Bill Naumuk) 40. 04:36 PM - fuel tank leak in 801 (Keystone Engineering LLC) 41. 04:45 PM - Re: homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis (n801bh@netzero.com) 42. 05:18 PM - Re: Standard "L" (Randy L. Thwing) 43. 05:46 PM - Re: fuel tank caps (n787xl@aol.com) 44. 05:47 PM - Re: New "European XL" from Zenith? (dfmoeller) 45. 07:59 PM - Czech built 701 (Brett Hanley) 46. 08:46 PM - Re: New "European XL" from Zenith? (David X) 47. 08:49 PM - Re: New "European XL" from Zenith? (David X) 48. 08:58 PM - Re: Y-stick solution ! comfort ? (David X) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US From: "Harrison-Hutcheson" Subject: Zenith-List: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A Getting set to send in paperwork to start the registration process for my kit build CH701. Need feedback, pros/cons about going the Exp-Amateur Built (8150-88) or the Exp-LSA (8150-88A). Items that have crossed my mind include my own annual inspections and if/when I sell the plane the ability of a non-AP new owner to do their annual inspections. Am I correct in the assumption that if I went Exp-AB I could do my annuals but the new owner would need an AP to do the inspections, and if I went Exp-LSA I would need to take the "16 hour" course to do my annuals and any new non-AP owner could also do annuals after passing the "16 hour" course? I need to go into this with eyes open and not get blindsided with unknown aspects. Thanks in advance, Sammy J Hutcheson CH701 in paint shop N6412Z (reserved) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New "European XL" from Zenith? From: "dfmoeller" Around the first of this year, I was asking some questions of the factory about relocating the 912S engine a bit further forward to relieve some of the ass-heaviness of the 601XL (among other things). Caleb told me the following via email: "The Czech Aircraft Works did use a longer engine mount for their 601XLs, but it was much longer, I believe about 9" longer. They made several changes and I think the engine mount being that long was to counter the effects of another change. That being said we are working with our European dealer to produce a new firewall forward package for the 912S that shifts the CG forward. That should be available this summer, but I don't know what that will cost at this time. Another option for you is to get a metal prop for it. They weigh about 15lbs more and being at the very nose of the aircraft will help out a great deal." Sounds like there may be several changes in the works. I'm hoping this becomes available soon. I'm a big guy and my bird is limited in useful load by rearward CG, not by MTOW. Doug Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99238#99238 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:31 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Standard "L" Thanks Randy. I don't have one of those brakes nor ready access to one but I did get a generous offer from another lister who has daily access to a shear and a CNC brake. I took him up on the offer and paying him 40% more than he asked saved me over 60% of what Zenith was going to charge. I'm not sure why Zenith feels compelled to create such a profit center out of this item but as I said before, I support their right to do it for whatever reason. It does somewhat erode customer loyalty though and they must realize that. Dred ---- "Randy L. Thwing" wrote: > Here is a pic of bending standard "L" on the Tapco house siding brake, > although the "L" in the picture is .016, bending .025" works out the same. > When "scrapbuilding", "L" is nearly free! > > Randy L. Thwing, do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:59 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Zenith-List: Wake Turbulence Article I was reading yesterday an article about wake turbulence in the latest issue of Sport Pilot magazine and the author state that strong wake turbulence from a heavy aircraft could potentially brake apart a small plane. I couldnt help but wander the possibility of this being the cause of the 601XL accident on 11/04/2006 where according to witness, observed the center section of the airplane falling straight down this means that both wings separated in flight. The NTSB also report no evidence of fire and airplane's structural components were located in adjacent open fields. I can imaging a structural failure in a 601XL that can make both wings come apart unless there is an explosion however, there is no evidence of fire. I guess it would be difficult to prove that wake turbulence brought the plane down but it could be easier to rule it out if no big plane when thru the area prior to the accident. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:25 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A From all the information I have seen, your assumptions are correct. Who is authorized to do the inspections is the only difference between the two after the plane is certificated. Remember though that you have to have the repairman certificate to do the annuals for E-AB and you have to apply for the certificate to get it, it is not automatically issued with the airworthiness certificate. One other thing, If you hold the repairman certificate for a particular E-AB, it is my understanding that you can do the annuals on that airplane no matter who owns it in the future. On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:19 AM, Harrison-Hutcheson wrote: > Getting set to send in paperwork to start the registration process > for my kit build CH701. Need feedback, pros/cons about going the > Exp-Amateur Built (8150-88) or the Exp-LSA (8150-88A). Items that > have crossed my mind include my own annual inspections and if/when > I sell the plane the ability of a non-AP new owner to do their > annual inspections. Am I correct in the assumption that if I went > Exp-AB I could do my annuals but the new owner would need an AP to > do the inspections, and if I went Exp-LSA I would need to take the > "16 hour" course to do my annuals and any new non-AP owner could > also do annuals after passing the "16 hour" course? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A From: "ashontz" bryanmmartin wrote: > From all the information I have seen, your assumptions are correct. > Who is authorized to do the inspections is the only difference > between the two after the plane is certificated. Remember though > that you have to have the repairman certificate to do the annuals for > E-AB and you have to apply for the certificate to get it, it is not > automatically issued with the airworthiness certificate. One other > thing, If you hold the repairman certificate for a particular E-AB, > it is my understanding that you can do the annuals on that airplane > no matter who owns it in the future. > > On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:19 AM, Harrison-Hutcheson wrote: > > > > Getting set to send in paperwork to start the registration process > > for my kit build CH701. Need feedback, pros/cons about going the > > Exp-Amateur Built (8150-88) or the Exp-LSA (8150-88A). Items that > > have crossed my mind include my own annual inspections and if/when > > I sell the plane the ability of a non-AP new owner to do their > > annual inspections. Am I correct in the assumption that if I went > > Exp-AB I could do my annuals but the new owner would need an AP to > > do the inspections, and if I went Exp-LSA I would need to take the > > "16 hour" course to do my annuals and any new non-AP owner could > > also do annuals after passing the "16 hour" course? > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. Is it difficult to get the repairman's certificate and how difficult is the 16 hour course? Seems to me it would be a no-brainer to just issue a repairman's cert to the guy who built the damn thing, especially if it's built from plans. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99258#99258 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:50 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wake Turbulence Article From: "ashontz" [quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]I was reading yesterday an article about wake turbulence in the latest issue of Sport Pilot magazine and the author state that strong wake turbulence from a heavy aircraft could potentially brake apart a small plane. I couldn?t help but wander the possibility of this being the cause of the 601XL accident on 11/04/2006 where according to witness, ?? observed the center section of the airplane falling straight down? this means that both wings separated in flight. The NTSB also report ?no evidence of fire? and ?airplane's structural components were located in adjacent open fields.? I can imaging a structural failure in a 601XL that can make both wings come apart unless there is an explosion however, there is no evidence of fire. I guess it would be difficult to prove that wake turbulence brought the plane down but it could be easier to rule it out if no big plane when thru the area prior to the accident. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida > [b] Is there any further info on that accident? I haven't heard of any other XLs (or many plane for that matter) where the wings just broke off. Sounds like a problem with the main bolts or something. Where did they break off, at the root? Is there any structural problem with making the rear wing channel out of two spliced pieces? I'd have to think no. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99259#99259 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A From: "rickpitcher" It's difficult to say which way is better, Exp-AB or Exp-LSA when registering a new airplane that you have built yourself. There MAY be an incentive to go with ELSA for the ability to get the repairman's license with the 16 hour course, but this is a temporary deal that is due to expire Jan, 2008. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/light_sport_aircraft/ You'll pay ~ $400 for the course in addition to the cost for the weekend: travel, lodging, food, etc. Figure $500 to $750 total. Still an outstanding bargain IMHO http://www.rainbowaviation.com/16_hr__course.htm If you happen to know an A&P in your area you might get 4 or 5 years worth of inspections for that much money, AND you'll have the benefit of having another set of eyes going over the airplane. I'll bet he'll find things that you overlooked or simply were not aware of. All in all, I'd say it's a wash. Rick Pitcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99261#99261 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:05 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wake Turbulence Article I think it would take a very close encounter with the large airplane for wake turbulance to do that much damage. An explosion wouldn't necessarily leave evidence of a fire. I hope the NTSB does a thorough investigation of this accident and provides some answers. On Mar 7, 2007, at 9:18 AM, William Dominguez wrote: > I was reading yesterday an article about wake turbulence in the > latest issue of Sport Pilot magazine and the author state that > strong wake turbulence from a heavy aircraft could potentially > brake apart a small plane. I couldnt help but wander the > possibility of this being the cause of the 601XL accident on > 11/04/2006 where according to witness, observed the center > section of the airplane falling straight down this means that both > wings separated in flight. The NTSB also report no evidence of > fire and airplane's structural components were located in > adjacent open fields. > I can imaging a structural failure in a 601XL that can make both > wings come apart unless there is an explosion however, there is no > evidence of fire. > I guess it would be difficult to prove that wake turbulence brought > the plane down but it could be easier to rule it out if no big > plane when thru the area prior to the accident. > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:12 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A From: "ashontz" rickpitcher wrote: > It's difficult to say which way is better, Exp-AB or Exp-LSA when registering a new airplane that you have built yourself. There MAY be an incentive to go with ELSA for the ability to get the repairman's license with the 16 hour course, but this is a temporary deal that is due to expire Jan, 2008. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/light_sport_aircraft/ > > You'll pay ~ $400 for the course in addition to the cost for the weekend: travel, lodging, food, etc. Figure $500 to $750 total. Still an outstanding bargain IMHO http://www.rainbowaviation.com/16_hr__course.htm > > If you happen to know an A&P in your area you might get 4 or 5 years worth of inspections for that much money, AND you'll have the benefit of having another set of eyes going over the airplane. I'll bet he'll find things that you overlooked or simply were not aware of. > > All in all, I'd say it's a wash. > > Rick Pitcher Are you saying after 1/2008 you can't even get a repairman's cert, or just can't get the ELSA after that point? -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99264#99264 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:02 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wake Turbulence Article Hi William, I don't think the report of this accident indicates any possibility of wake turbulence as a cause for this accident. The report mentions sound of an explosion, rough engine sounds, and it seems the parts of the plane all came apart at once and landed very near each other. It also mentions there was no indication of fire or oil stains. This indicates something like a bomb went off but it didn't leave any obvious marks. None of this sounds like a wake turbulence incident to me. Wake turbulence, like other forms of turbulence, seems more likely to result in loss of control of the plane than in structural failure. If the plane is operating at normal speeds, then structural failure would indicate a severe design error. Even if this happened, I would think it unlikely that the plane would break up into many different parts including two wing separations and engine separation. I just can't imagine any phenomenon in weather or air condition which would cause this kind of catastrophic structure failure in a well designed and well built aircraft. While I think wake turbulence is a deadly problem, the circumstances that make it deadly include the likelihood of encountering it while very close to the ground. In low speed operations while landing and taking off the disruption of pilot control can easily lead to impact with the ground. This is most likely to happen when operating near very heavy planes or very heavily loaded wings like fighter planes in landing configuration. None of these situations seem likely from the report. I think we need to exercise patience and wait for the NTSB to complete its investigation of this accident before reaching any conclusion about the cause of the accident. They have all the data and airplane parts for examination. I am sure they will let us know what actually happened. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 06:18 AM 3/7/2007, you wrote: >I was reading yesterday an article about wake >turbulence in the latest issue of Sport Pilot >magazine and the author state that strong wake >turbulence from a heavy aircraft could >potentially brake apart a small plane. I >couldn=92t help but wander the possibility of this >being the cause of the 601XL accident on >11/04/2006 where according to witness, =93=85 >observed the center section of the airplane >falling straight down=94 this means that both >wings separated in flight. The NTSB also report >=93no evidence of fire=94 and =93airplane's structural >components were located in adjacent open fields.=94 >I can imaging a structural failure in a 601XL >that can make both wings come apart unless there >is an explosion however, there is no evidence of fire. >I guess it would be difficult to prove that wake >turbulence brought the plane down but it could >be easier to rule it out if no big plane when >thru the area prior to the accident. > >William Dominguez >Zodiac 601XL Plans >Miami, Florida > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:27 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A It isn't difficult to get the repairman's certificate for an E-AB. It is a separate process from the airworthiness application though. My DAR told me I needed to apply to the local FAA office after the Phase I testing was complete. I just had to show the FAA my builder log and turn in the application (FAA form 8610-2), I received the certificate a few weeks later. I haven't taken the 16 hour course so I don't know much about it. The EAA Sport Pilot section has information about where and when the 16 hour courses are offered. http:// www.sportpilot.org/1070215_sportair.html#P0_0 On Mar 7, 2007, at 10:26 AM, ashontz wrote: > Is it difficult to get the repairman's certificate and how > difficult is the 16 hour course? > > Seems to me it would be a no-brainer to just issue a repairman's > cert to the guy who built the damn thing, especially if it's built > from plans. > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:28 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wake Turbulence Article The NTSB preliminary report is out but not the probable cause report. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&key=1 Other than a few news accounts about it, that's about all there is at this time. There was one other 601 accident where the wings folded up in flight but in that accident they stayed atached to the fuselage at the main spar. There was some who reported that the new owner forgot to install the rear wing bolts in that case. On Mar 7, 2007, at 10:30 AM, ashontz wrote: > > Is there any further info on that accident? I haven't heard of any > other XLs (or many plane for that matter) where the wings just > broke off. Sounds like a problem with the main bolts or something. > Where did they break off, at the root? Is there any structural > problem with making the rear wing channel out of two spliced > pieces? I'd have to think no. > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wake Turbulence Article From: "ashontz" http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&key=1 http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1 This is two seperate accidents with a 601XL in-flight break-up, no? -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99273#99273 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:22 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A With my first build which was one of the "fat ultralights", the application for the repairman's certificate was accomplished at the same time as the airworthiness inspection and issuance of the phase 1 flight restrictions. The only thing that happened after the test flight hours had been completed was that I certified that fact to the FAA and I was officially granted the change to the phase 2 operating restrictions. My point is that I recommend doing the paperwork for both the plane and for your repairman's certificate all at the same time. It has been four years now so I don't remember all the form numbers and some of the process may have changed. Dred ---- Bryan Martin wrote: > > It isn't difficult to get the repairman's certificate for an E-AB. It > is a separate process from the airworthiness application though. My > DAR told me I needed to apply to the local FAA office after the Phase > I testing was complete. I just had to show the FAA my builder log and > turn in the application (FAA form 8610-2), I received the certificate > a few weeks later. I haven't taken the 16 hour course so I don't know > much about it. The EAA Sport Pilot section has information about > where and when the 16 hour courses are offered. http:// > www.sportpilot.org/1070215_sportair.html#P0_0 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A From: "ricklach" Every post is correct. As a certified LSA Repairman (the 120 hour course) I can work on any Special or Expermental LSA including annuals. But I own an A/B expermental 701. So I can work on it BUT I can not do the annual safty inspection. I have to pay an A&P to do that. Your post was asking about the the advantages, if any, between the Amateur built expermental and Expermental Light Sports. to me there are two big reasons to go E-LSA. 1. Not only you, BUT if sold the new owner can do the annual safety inspection after taking the 16HR course. 2. The first reason makes the airplane far more valuable when put up for sale because the new buyer can do it all if he wants to. I know I wish my A/B expermental was an ELSA. Rick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99276#99276 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:35 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A After 1/31/2008, the so called "fat ultralight" clause expires. This is the clause that people are using now to register their homebuilts as E-LSAs. After that deadline only kits that were sold by the kit manufacturer as E-LSA kits may be registered as E-LSA and they must be built exactly according to the plans. An E-LSA built under the normal rule may be modified only after it is registered. The 1/31/08 deadline has nothing to do with the repairman certificate. Since Zenith isn't selling E-LSA kits yet, a CH601XL under construction now can't get registered as E-LSA after the deadline. On Mar 7, 2007, at 10:52 AM, ashontz wrote: > > rickpitcher wrote: >> It's difficult to say which way is better, Exp-AB or Exp-LSA when >> registering a new airplane that you have built yourself. There MAY >> be an incentive to go with ELSA for the ability to get the >> repairman's license with the 16 hour course, but this is a >> temporary deal that is due to expire Jan, 2008. http:// >> www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/ >> aircraft_registry/light_sport_aircraft/ >> > > Are you saying after 1/2008 you can't even get a repairman's cert, > or just can't get the ELSA after that point? > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:06 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane is registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA specifications, that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the Sport Pilot restrictions? If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm sure this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't wise soul please confirm or correct me? Dred ---- ricklach wrote: > > Every post is correct. As a certified LSA Repairman (the 120 hour course) I can work on any Special or Expermental LSA including annuals. But I own an A/B expermental 701. So I can work on it BUT I can not do the annual safty inspection. I have to pay an A&P to do that. Your post was asking about the the advantages, if any, between the Amateur built expermental and Expermental Light Sports. to me there are two big reasons to go E-LSA. > > 1. Not only you, BUT if sold the new owner can do the annual safety inspection after taking the 16HR course. > > 2. The first reason makes the airplane far more valuable when put up for sale because the new buyer can do it all if he wants to. > > I know I wish my A/B expermental was an ELSA. > > Rick ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New "European XL" from Zenith? From: "Tim Juhl" Doug, When you refer to "ass-heaviness" do you find yourself using excessive nose down trim in flight with just yourself aboard? Or is the problem that it is light on it's nose when parked (ie. tail grounds when you climb on the wing.) I've been advised that the orientation of the main landing gear when installed can make a big difference in the latter. They say if you install the gear facing the way it is shown in the current plans that grounding the tail is more likely. They also say that installing it facing as it was originally requires a bit more of a pull to rotate and get it flying. I'm a big guy too but I assumed since people and fuel were fairly close to the CG that it would be hard to get out of the envelope unless you put too much weight towards the back of the rear luggage area. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99281#99281 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:13 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wake Turbulence Article This is the second accident I mentioned. If you read the full narrative you'll notice that it reports that both wings remained attached at the forward spar with all bolts intact. The report makes no mention at all of the rear wing attach bolts although it does say the aft spar attach point was intact. This may indicate that the rear bolts were missing. That would certainly explain why the wings folded as they did. On Mar 7, 2007, at 11:20 AM, ashontz wrote: > > http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1 > > This is two seperate accidents with a 601XL in-flight break-up, no? > > -------- > Andy Shontz > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:36 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A Any airplane that conforms to the LSA specifications can be flown by a sport pilot no matter what type of airwothiness certificate it has. Unfortunately, who can perform the annual inspections depends entirely on what type of airworthiness certificate the plane has, whether or not it conforms to LSA specifications is irrelevant. Only the original builder who was granted the repairman certificate for that airplane or an A&P may perform the annuals on an E-AB. You must have the LSA repairman certificate with either the inspection rating (16 hour course) or the maintenance rating (120 hour course) or and A&P certificate to do the annuals on an E-LSA. The 16 hour inspection rating only applies to E-LSA, not to any other airworthiness certificate. On Mar 7, 2007, at 11:36 AM, wrote: > > Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane > is registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA > specifications, that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the > Sport Pilot restrictions? > > If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner > take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as > it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm > sure this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't > wise soul please confirm or correct me? > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:58 AM PST US From: Larry Landucci Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Maximum cross wind for 801 I think that the ability to handle the wind is more a function of the capability of the pilot and the amount of Xwind practice he/she gets. The 801 is certainly capable of handling some pretty stiff Xwinds. I personally don't find it much fun with 90=BA Xwinds in excess of 15-20 knots, but on rare occasions I have done it, in one case on a 28 ft wide runway -- a little scary. With a 30 knot Xwind I would not fly (my limitation, not the 801's). My technique is to crab on long final, then on short final, transition to a cross-control, up-wind wing down and land on the up- wind main wheel. I like this standard technique and have never had any problems with it. Although much of the time I land with power at idle; with strong Xwinds I like to maintain a little power with an approach speed no less than 70 knots. Taxiing the 801 in strong winds is no problem as long as you keep the flaperons fully deflected into the wind and you don't go too fast. Larry Landucci -- N801LL ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:23 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A Thanks Bryan, That explains the increased resale value issue related to E LSA certification. Dred ---- Bryan Martin wrote: > > Any airplane that conforms to the LSA specifications can be flown by > a sport pilot no matter what type of airwothiness certificate it has. > Unfortunately, who can perform the annual inspections depends > entirely on what type of airworthiness certificate the plane has, > whether or not it conforms to LSA specifications is irrelevant. > > Only the original builder who was granted the repairman certificate > for that airplane or an A&P may perform the annuals on an E-AB. You > must have the LSA repairman certificate with either the inspection > rating (16 hour course) or the maintenance rating (120 hour course) > or and A&P certificate to do the annuals on an E-LSA. The 16 hour > inspection rating only applies to E-LSA, not to any other > airworthiness certificate. > > On Mar 7, 2007, at 11:36 AM, wrote: > > > > > Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane > > is registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA > > specifications, that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the > > Sport Pilot restrictions? > > > > If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner > > take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as > > it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm > > sure this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't > > wise soul please confirm or correct me? ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:56 AM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Zenith-List: Vibration Members, On the ZodiacXL, with Jabiru 3300 engine has anyone out there had a problem with excessive vibration at high rpm settings? If so what was the cause and how did you fix it? Tracy Stone ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 Harker Heights, Tx ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:39 AM PST US From: john butterfield Subject: Zenith-List: fuel tank caps hi list i am putting in my wing gas tanks and it appears that the upper rim around the filler tube, will be exposed, that is above the wing surface. it looks like it will be about the thickness of the wing skin. my hole i cut in the wing is well shaped, but alas, off a little bit. i was wondering if any of you used a plate or gasket to cover the open space around the filler tube. it looks like i can make a round plate with a cut in it that would allow it to fid snugly around the tube. I would probebly just glue it on. this would make it look better and hopefully not disturb the air flow over the wing. maybe there are some rubber gaskets that could be used. any ideas would be helpful also, are any of you using a quick disconnect on the fuel line (located in the wing) so that removal of the wing would be made more simple. john butterfield 601XL corvair torrance, ca Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:50 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vibration From: "TxDave" I am basing this observation on a single one hour flight. The 601XL I had the privilege to fly had the Jab 3300 and I was amazed at the lack of vibration. It was as smooth as silk at all rpm settings. Very impressive engine. do not archive Dave Clay Temple, TX http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99325#99325 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:12 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A Hi Ed, Close, but not quite right. This is really confusing stuff. A pilot who is limited to Sport Pilot limits must fly a plane that conforms to the LSA definition. It makes absolutely no difference what sort of airworthiness certificate the plane has for this purpose. It is a different story when it comes to annual condition inspections. In this case it does matter what sort of certificate the plane has. A plane with an LSA certificate requires someone with either the 16 hour course or an A&P license to sign off the annual inspection. (There may be another intermediate license this mechanic can have, but I never got interested in this particular path.) A plane with an E-AB certificate requires an A&P to sign off annual inspections or the original builder if he applied for and received the repairman's certificate for that particular plane. For the LSA, a new owner can also do the inspection with appropriate training (16 hour course) but there is no second chance for the E-AB certified plane - only the original builder can get the repairman's certificate for this one. Go figure. Paul XL fuselage At 08:36 AM 3/7/2007, you wrote: > >Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane is >registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA specifications, >that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the Sport Pilot restrictions? > >If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner >take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as >it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm sure >this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't wise >soul please confirm or correct me? > >Dred - ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:57 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Faa registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A How about this? If I register as E-LSA so that subsequent owners only need the 16 hour course, could I ALSO get a repairman's certificate so that I may do condition inspections with or without the 16 hour course? E-LSA should not take away a logical privilege. Bob from Pace,FL xl/Lyc ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A From: "Gig Giacona" >From EAA's FAQ for the HB repairman's certificate. Be a U.S. citizen or an individual of a foreign country who has been admitted for permanent residence in the United States. Be 18 years of age or older. Be the "primary builder" of the aircraft. Be able to demonstrate to the FAA inspector your ability to perform condition inspections and to determine whether the subject aircraft is in a condition for safe operation. It's my understanding that the last part pretty much happens during the inspection process and that with many DARs it comes down to you built it you can inspect it. [quote="ashontz} Is it difficult to get the repairman's certificate and how difficult is the 16 hour course? Seems to me it would be a no-brainer to just issue a repairman's cert to the guy who built the damn thing, especially if it's built from plans.[/quote] -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99336#99336 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:27 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Faa registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A What does logic have to do with it? We're dealing with the government. On Mar 7, 2007, at 3:27 PM, MaxNr@aol.com wrote: > How about this? If I register as E-LSA so that subsequent owners > only need the 16 hour course, could I ALSO get a repairman's > certificate so that I may do condition inspections with or without > the 16 hour course? E-LSA should not take away a logical privilege. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:35 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis If you're an EAA member you can access the members only section and pull up dozens of excellent articles by the late Tony Bingelis. You newcomers to homebuilding might not know Tony but his articles were the best part of Sport Aviation in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. His first two books should be in your home library if you're building or considering building. the link for EAA members is: http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/ Many of the questions that arise on this list are answered in detail with illustrations (generic of course). Many of the outlandish "expert answers" of late can then be ignored. tailwinds jeff HDS/3300 290 hours - N94 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:53 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vibration My Jab 3300 in an 601XL with a wood Sensenich prop runs great and is smooth.Tony GrazianoN493TG; 213 hrs----------Members, On the ZodiacXL, with Jabiru 3300 engine has anyone out there had a problem with excessive vibration at high rpm settings? If so what was the cause and how did you fix it? Tracy Stone ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 Harker Heights, Tx ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:17 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Transport Canada Yet. We'd already be walking if it weren't for EAA and AOPA. We're a tiny fraction of the population, but have political clout that puts the NRA to shame, relatively. If Washington wants to do something bad enough and think they can pull it off, they will. Don't get complacent. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hulland" Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Transport Canada > > > Gary Wolf, (Via Zodie Rocket) > Thank you for adding one more nail that can be used to shut the USA > FAA User Fee and Control (read power) issue. Canada gets less and less > freedom to fly because of the reporting, excessive control and > excessive fees to fly a small private. There is and never will be any > good reason for the government to have more control and collect more > money. Sure glad we are not like you guys when it comes to the freedom > to fly. > > > -- > Semper Fi, > Steven R. Hulland > CH 600 Taildragger > Amado, AZ > > This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies > scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help > insure virus free email and attachments. > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:13 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Standard "L" Randy- Is a "Tapco" an aluminum siding brake? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy L. Thwing" Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Standard "L" > Here is a pic of bending standard "L" on the Tapco house siding brake, > although the "L" in the picture is .016, bending .025" works out the same. > When "scrapbuilding", "L" is nearly free! > > Randy L. Thwing, do not archive > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:04 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Standard "L" All- Cripes, I should know by now to read every posting before asking a stupid question. Disregard last posting. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy L. Thwing" Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Standard "L" > Here is a pic of bending standard "L" on the Tapco house siding brake, > although the "L" in the picture is .016, bending .025" works out the same. > When "scrapbuilding", "L" is nearly free! > > Randy L. Thwing, do not archive > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:08 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis Jeff , I agree with you 100%. I mentioned Tony Bingelis, (his 3 books), a nd another book titled: "Stick and Rudder" about 6 months ago and I thoug ht WW III was going to break out. If folks would read (and own) these boo ks it would answer a lot of folks questions. I like Tony's direct approach to a problem the same as William Wynne.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message --- -=0AFrom: Jeff Small =0ATo: zenith-list =0ASent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 5:33:06 PM=0ASubject: Zenith- List: homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis=0A=0A=0AIf you're an EAA mem ber you can access the members only section and pull up dozens of excellent articles by the late Tony Bingelis. You newcomers to homebuilding might n ot know Tony but his articles were the best part of Sport Aviation in the 7 0's, 80's and early 90's. His first two books should be in your home libra ry if you're building or considering building.=0A =0Athe link for EAA membe rs is: http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/=0A =0AMa ny of the questions that arise on this list are answered in detail with ill ustrations (generic of course). Many of the outlandish "expert answers" of late can then be ignored.=0A =0Atailwinds jeff HDS/3300 290 hours - N94 =======0A=0A=0A =0A____________________________________________ ________________________________________=0ABored stiff? Loosen up... =0ADow nload and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.=0Ahttp://games.y ahoo.com/games/front ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:31 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wake Turbulence Article We need to wait for the NTSB report. However, those who think wake turbulence only occurs near the ground and cannot tear an airplane apart need to study wake turbulence in more depth. Wake turbulence from one large (not necessarily heavy) airplane at altitude can and has caused a smaller airplane to go out of control and lose various parts - just as a strong wind shear will do. I personally watched a DC-9 enter the wake turbulence of a DC-19 and end up doing a complete roll. Pilot managed to stop roll about 200' on short final and land with extensive structural damage. I also watched a Luscombe enter the wake turbulence from an F-27 while on take off. Lost his left stabilizer and subsequent crash totaled the airplane. If there were any airliners flying past where last years 601 crashed, wake turbulence could in fact be the cause. However, I am sure the NTSB will look into that possibility. They have on many of the accidents investigations that I have been involved with. I may be wrong here, but I think the A300 that crashed a week or so after 911 in New York encountered wake turbulence or wind shear that caused extensive rudder damage. When coupled with the co-pillots aggressive control movements, the rudder came off the airplane and over a hundered folks died. Do No Archive -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:36 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Maximum cross wind for 801 I agree with Larry on everything he said. Personal comfort with crosswin ds is the deciding factor. On dry pavement, taxiing is not a problem, he re in Jackson Hole Wy months will go by when we cannot see bare pavement , it is all ice covered. The side of an 801 is like a billboard, add a c rosswind and icy taxiways and I can assure you those pesky taxiway light s can make you religious as you are sliding their way. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Larry Landucci wrote: I think that the ability to handle the wind is more a function of the ca pability of the pilot and the amount of Xwind practice he/she gets. The 801 is certainly capable of handling some pretty stiff Xwinds. I personally don't find it much fun with 90=BA Xwinds in excess of 15-20 knots, but on rare occasions I have done it, in one case on a 28 ft wid e runway -- a little scary. With a 30 knot Xwind I would not fly (my lim itation, not the 801's).My technique is to crab on long final, then on s hort final, transition to a cross-control, up-wind wing down and land on the up-wind main wheel. I like this standard technique and have never h ad any problems with it. Although much of the time I land with power at idle; with strong Xwinds I like to maintain a little power with an appro ach speed no less than 70 knots.Taxiing the 801 in strong winds is no pr oblem as long as you keep the flaperons fully deflected into the wind an d you don't go too fast. Larry Landucci -- N801LL ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ========================

I agree with Larry on everything he said. Personal comfort with crosswinds is the deciding factor. On dry pavement, taxiing is not a pr oblem, here in Jackson Hole Wy months will go by when we cannot see bare pavement, it is all ice covered. The side of an 801 is like a billboard , add a crosswind and icy taxiways and I can assure you those pesky taxi way lights can make you religious as you are sliding their way. <G> ;

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- Larry Landucci <lllanducci@tds.net>& nbsp;wrote:
< /SPAN>I think that the ability to handle the wind is more a function of the capability of the pilot and the amount of Xwind practice he/she gets . The 801 is certainly capable of handling some pretty stiff Xwinds.

I pe rsonally don't find it much fun with 90=BA Xwinds in excess of 15-20 kno ts, but on rare occasions I have done it, in one case on a 28 ft wide ru nway -- a little scary. With a 30 knot Xwind I would not fly (my limitat ion, not the 801's).
My t echnique is to crab on long final, then on short final, transition to a cross-control, up-wind wing down and land on the up-wind main wheel. I l ike this standard technique and have never had any problems with it. Alt hough much of the time I land with power at idle; with strong Xwinds I l ike to maintain a little power with an approach speed no less than 70 kn ots.
Taxi ing the 801 in strong winds is no problem as long as you keep the flaper ons fully deflected into the wind and you don't go too fast.

Larry Landucci -- N801LL





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">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
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________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:39 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: step angle pattern Larry and all- I already have 3/4 of the "Old" installation completed, and decided to finish it off. No need to fabricate and polish an additional piece (The fairing) and we have testimony that the old method is structurally sound. As far as losing any aerodynamics, as Jeff Small has said before, "You're building the aerodynanmic equivalent of a barn door." In the long run, I think the "Old way" is structurally, if not aerodynamically superior to the new. My choice considering the holes in my bottom skin! 'Nuff said. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Naumuk" Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:46 PM Subject: Re: step angle pattern > Larry- > And the new fairing would prevent drumming, too, because the airflow > would be deflected. Don't go away- I'm still chewing on this! > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LarryMcFarland" > To: "Bill+Rose" > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:25 AM > Subject: step angle pattern > > >> Hi Bill, >> >> I finally got out and looked at the inside of the plane and realized >> you're right. >> There is no connection between angle and inside cross members. The step >> tube >> angles just grab the skin and that's it. I did notice that there's no >> indication that >> the rivets were stressed or skin deformation in that area. So I suspect >> the angles >> are just a way of keeping parts fastened to keep things from drumming on >> each >> other. >> See pattern from this view, 8 rivets thru the bottom skin just behind the >> J-member. >> >> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/chargeportassy2.gif >> >> >> Larry McFarland >> >> > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:38 PM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: fuel tank leak in 801 Dave This is the second leak in the middle of the outside panel of the inner right tank. Last time I had a small puddle of AL welded in the pin hole. This year I got another pin hole right next to the patch. They put a 1/4" blob on the hole this time. It looked to me that they burnt the surrounding AL. I cleaned and roughed up the area and covered the outside with epoxy. Since it has been cold and not flyable I have not put fuel in the tanks yet. If it leaks I think I will leave the tank in place and epoxy the hole from the inside. I may put the plumbing for a angle of attach meter while I have the wing un-riveted. Bill Wilcox N801BW 280 hrs Valdez, Alaska Installing wing strut fairings, Just finished fixing second gas tank leak BILL, WHERE ARE YOUR TANKS LEAKING? DAVE IN SALEM ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:22 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis tailwinds jeff HDS/3300 290 hours - N94 This is a little off topic but I always thought any N number between N-1 and N-99 were reserved for the FAA's private use.. How did ya get N94. ? Just a little curious.. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Big Gee wrote: Jeff , I agree with you 100%. I mentioned Tony Bingelis, (his 3 books) , and another book titled: "Stick and Rudder" about 6 months ago and I thought WW III was going to break out. If folks would read (and own) these books it would answer a lot of folks questions. I like Tony's dir ect approach to a problem the same as William Wynne. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jeff Small Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 5:33:06 PM Subject: Zenith-List: homebuilding articles from Tony Bingelis If you're an EAA member you can access the members only section and pull up dozens of excellent articles by the late Tony Bingelis. You newcome rs to homebuilding might not know Tony but his articles were the best pa rt of Sport Aviation in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. His first two bo oks should be in your home library if you're building or considering bui lding. the link for EAA members is: http://members.eaa.org/home/homebui lders/authors/bingelis/ Many of the questions that arise on this list ar e answered in detail with illustrations (generic of course). Many of th e outlandish "expert answers" of late can then be ignored. tailwinds je ff HDS/3300 290 hours - N94 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zen======= 





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tailwinds  jeff  HDS/3300 290 hours - N94


 


This is a little off topic but I always thought any N number between 
N-1 and N-99 were reserved for  the FAA's private use.. How did ya 
get N94. ?  Just a little curious..


do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair
.com

-- Big Gee <taffy0687@yahoo.com> w
rote:




Jeff ,  I agree with you 100%.  I mentioned Tony 
Bingelis, (his 3 books), and  another book titled: "Stick and Rudde
r"  about 6 months ago and I thought WW III was going to break out.
   If folks would read (and own) these books it would answer a
 lot of folks questions.  I like Tony's direct approach to a proble
m the same as William Wynne.



----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Small <zodiacj
eff@msn.com>
To: zenith-list <zenith-list@matronics.com>

Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 5:33:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: homeb
uilding articles from Tony Bingelis



If you're an EAA member you can access the members only section and
 pull up dozens of excellent articles by the late Tony Bingelis.  Y
ou newcomers to homebuilding might not know Tony but his articles were t
he best part of Sport Aviation in the 70's, 80's and early 90's.  H
is first two books should be in your home library if you're building or 
considering building.


 



 


Many of the questions that arise on this list are answered in detai
l with illustrations (generic of course).  Many of the outlandish "
expert answers" of late can then be ignored.


 


tailwinds  jeff  HDS/3300 290 hours - N94


 


 
http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?Zen======= 







Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast 
with
 theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. 


========================
===========
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
========================
===========
tronics.com
========================
===========












________________________________  Message 42  ____________________________________


Time: 05:18:19 PM PST US
From: "Randy L. Thwing" 
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Standard "L"

Hey Bill:
    I used the term "house siding brake" because it will also bend "skinny"
steel flashing etc.  Attached is a pic of most of the brake with a piece of
"L" leaning against it.  I paid $500.00 for the brake used so I could bend
"Free" "L" after I cut the blanks on the $500.00 stomp shear I bought.used.
The Tapco will not bend .040, so I also bought a 8' x .062 (steel)
RoperWhitney used for $1500.00 and had to pay $150.00 for a crane truck to
move it.  But the "L" angle I bend is "nearly" free!

Regards,

Randy L. Thwing  Do not archive


> Randy-
>    Is a "Tapco" an aluminum siding brake?
> Bill Naumuk
>
>> Here is a pic of bending standard "L" on the Tapco house siding brake,

________________________________  Message 43  ____________________________________


Time: 05:46:16 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tank caps
From: n787xl@aol.com

  Hi
   
 Zenith has a fix for your problem. It is passed around to the builders. You have
to request it from them.
 I now have the kit to countersink the tank so it fits flush. I am not done with
it yet, but will be done soon.

 Regards

 James S.

 N787XL@aol.com
 601XL, JAB3300
 do not archive


 -----Original Message-----
 From: jdbutterfield@yahoo.com
 To: zenith-list-digest@matronics.com
 Sent: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:07 AM
 Subject: Zenith-List: fuel tank caps


hi list
i am putting in my wing gas tanks and it appears that
the upper rim around the filler tube, will be exposed,
that is above the wing surface.  it looks like it will
be about the thickness of the wing skin.  my hole i
cut in the wing is well shaped, but alas, off a little
bit.  i was wondering if any of you used a plate or
gasket to cover the open space around the filler tube.
 it looks like i can make a round plate with a cut in
it that would allow it to fid snugly around the tube. 
I would probebly just glue it on.  this would make it
look better and hopefully not disturb the air flow
over the wing.  maybe there are some rubber gaskets
that could be used.  any ideas would be helpful

also, are any of you using a quick disconnect on the
fuel line (located in the wing) so that removal of the
wing would be made more simple.
john butterfield
601XL corvair
torrance, ca


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at AOL.com.

________________________________  Message 44  ____________________________________


Time: 05:47:59 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New "European XL" from Zenith?
From: "dfmoeller" 


Tim,

Actually, the trim isn't terribly effective either way.  I have the older, smaller
style trim tab, and on approach while lightly loaded, it really won't hold
the nose up.  Not a problem though, some think thats a safer condition, and I
tend to agree.

The 601XL does have some W&B issues though, at least with the 912S installed in
the older Zenith engine frames.  The Cg is almost at the forward limit, unloaded.
About 6 or 8 months ago, there was a thread on this forum wherein a guy
described moving his engine forward to try to rectify the issue.  The CZAW engine
frames were designed to carry the engine more forward than the Zenith ones.
I'm 6'4", 280#.  With another man on board, figure an average guy at 200# (the
mythical 180 pounder was only an average, and that isn't even accurate anymore
- this leaves half the population out!!!!), this only leaves 80 pounds for
fuel (which still puts the W part safely within the early XL's 1300# MTOW -
barely): not a whole lot.  Now the kicker!  When this fuel load approaches zero,
the Cg moves almost 15 mm past the rearward limit - a very dangerous condition.
This makes flight planning a real challenge.

Look at some of the Excel W&B spreadsheets made by some on this forum.  You'll
see that I'm not alone in this.

This situation makes the rear luggage area almost unusable.  Install the wing lockers!!!!

This is why I was asking Zenith about moving the engine; that would be a perfect
solution.

Note, I am only talking about the Rotax engined models.  I believe the Jabirus
hold the engine forward already, although they are a few pounds heavier.

My gear is installed in the older manner, so on the takeoff roll, one REALLY has
to yank the craft off the ground; it simply will not fly itself off the ground.
And on landing, its simply impossible to keep the nose in the air.  It is
extremely difficult to raise the nose by pressing the tail down, too.  I am currenlty
in the middle of some fairly extensive work on the bird at present, so
I was planning on reversing the gear in the process.  This might help the balance
issue a bit, too (marginally, but anything helps).  I am a little apprehensive
though, I fly out of a grass strip thats not maintained all that well,
and I wonder how the new gear placement will make the plane behave during all
the bouncing around.  It seems like the wheelbase will be awfully short then.
We'll see!  It should be easy enough to change back, if I don't like it.

Doug


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99375#99375


________________________________  Message 45  ____________________________________


Time: 07:59:22 PM PST US
From: Brett Hanley 
Subject: Zenith-List: Czech built 701

I have flown many times in a Czech built 701.  The workmanship is superb.  
The one I was flying was sold last year used for about forty five thousand 
US dollars.  It did have a IFR panel and nice radio stack, Rotax 912S 100hp
.  NOT CHEAP.=0A=0ABrett=0ADo not archive=0A=0A=0ATime: 07:42:03 PM PST US
=0AFrom: Julian Hankinson =0ASubject: Zenith-List:
 Czech built 701s=0A=0A=0AHello All-=0A=0AI have a friend who has been watc
hing my slow 701 assembly progress =0Aand decided he is going to buy a used
 one instead of building.  What =0Ais the quality of the Czech built 701s?-
 I have never seen one up close.

________________________________  Message 46  ____________________________________


Time: 08:46:30 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New "European XL" from Zenith?
From: "David X" 



dfmoeller wrote:
> "The Czech Aircraft Works did use a longer engine mount for their 601XLs, but
it was much longer, I believe about 9" longer. They made several changes and
I think the engine mount being that long was to counter the effects of another
change. Another option for you is to get a metal prop for it. They weigh about
15lbs more and being at the very nose of the aircraft will help out a great
deal."


It's a crock. I know first hand. 15 lbs in the nose will help some, but not as
much as moving the whole engine forward 9 inches (duh ... don't even need to do
the math on that one).

I had Chris and Matt look over the first LSA out of CZAW (my plane). They scrutinized
it with every intention of finding fault. In the end, not even Chris could
tell me what was significantly different.

I had to have a new mount and cowl shipped from CZAW and put on by Lockwood in
Florida. They did a great job, by the way. The CG is still not where I'd like
it, but most definately usable and safe.

ZAC just plain screwed up, in my opinion. Odd that they blame CZAW but then offering
the same extra long mount as CZAW.

--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99400#99400


________________________________  Message 47  ____________________________________


Time: 08:49:27 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New "European XL" from Zenith?
From: "David X" 


P.S. The longer mount for my plane was designed by Chris/ZAC, not CZAW. I requested
a letter for insurance purposes that indicated it was of ZAC design and specification.

--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99401#99401


________________________________  Message 48  ____________________________________


Time: 08:58:12 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Y-stick solution ! comfort ?
From: "David X" 


[quote="DaveG601XL"]For those of you who have chimed in about having flown the
Y-stick for quite a while, please answer my current worry about putting a y-stick
in my XL:  For right-handers, how do you handle right-handed tasks like writing
down AITS info, tuning radios or handling anything on the right side of
the instrument panel?  Especially if you are in a maneuvering sequence or in choppy
conditions that do not allow hands-off flying?  

I am planning on the Y-stick but will have these quandaries until I can experience
and work through them myself.quote]

Ergonomic my fat A55! It is comfortable, but an utter pain! Try flying a cross
country in turbulent winds while trying to reach across your body with left hand
to manage radio and transponder, or reach across your body to hold the stick
with the left while the right hand manages the instruments etc. In the pattern,
it's not a problem.

An advantage of having a stick in the middle is that you can use your knees to
steady the stick while you fiddle with the map. You can also easily switch hands
to manage left or right sides of the panel.

--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99403#99403


 

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