---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/14/07: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:00 AM - LRI plus new Machine (was LRI pickup) (Scott Laughlin) 2. 05:56 AM - Re: Strapping the Stab (William Dominguez) 3. 06:06 AM - Re: Strapping the Stab (paul baker) 4. 06:06 AM - Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas (Tom Lutz) 5. 06:42 AM - Re: LRI plus new Machine (was LRI pickup) (Dave Ruddiman) 6. 07:02 AM - Re: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas (John Bolding) 7. 08:01 AM - Bob Bushby (wade jones) 8. 08:38 AM - Re: LRI plus new Machine (was LRI pickup) (Randy L. Thwing) 9. 09:48 AM - Re: Bob Bushby (Jim Hoak) 10. 09:55 AM - Rib forms (jhines) 11. 10:13 AM - Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Hays Jeff) 12. 10:43 AM - Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Robin Bellach) 13. 10:57 AM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Charles Wacker) 14. 11:45 AM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Dave Ruddiman) 15. 11:45 AM - Re: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas (MacDonald Doug) 16. 12:36 PM - Oshkosh Area Zenith Builders/Owners () 17. 01:05 PM - Re: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas (Jim Hoak) 18. 01:59 PM - Re: XL Center console (eddies) 19. 02:25 PM - Re: Rib forms (jhines) 20. 02:42 PM - Cowl hinge wires (was XL Center console) (Craig Payne) 21. 02:53 PM - LRI, yes (Big Gee) 22. 03:01 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Gig Giacona) 23. 04:36 PM - Re: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas (n801bh@netzero.com) 24. 04:55 PM - Flap Wiring (Jaybannist@cs.com) 25. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: Rib forms (wade jones) 26. 05:49 PM - Re: Flap Wiring (Edward Moody II) 27. 06:00 PM - Re: Flap Wiring (Craig Payne) 28. 06:01 PM - Re: Re: Rib forms (Craig Payne) 29. 07:08 PM - Re: Flap Wiring (Paul Mulwitz) 30. 07:27 PM - Re:Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas (RURUNY@aol.com) 31. 07:49 PM - LRI / AOA gauge (raymondj) 32. 08:00 PM - Re: LRI / AOA gauge (ZodieRocket) 33. 08:10 PM - Re: LRI / AOA gauge (ZodieRocket) 34. 09:02 PM - Re: LRI / AOA gauge (raymondj) 35. 09:45 PM - Re: LRI / AOA gauge (Craig Payne) 36. 10:16 PM - Re: LRI / AOA gauge (raymondj) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:03 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Zenith-List: LRI plus new Machine (was LRI pickup) Dan, thanks for the email to the group about my $50 LRI probe. I currently have three probes to send out filling my final orders. I started on a few extras just in case anyone else needs one. Yes, my 601 is nearing completion so I will be reporting on test flying soon with an email or two and maybe a video. While it was too cold in Nebraska to do any polishing (our much of anything else on the airplane) over the last few months, I've been working on another machine in my garage that has been a lot of fun. Here's a video of a CNC milling machine I built. My daughter added the music and helped me with the video - I'm hoping she helps me with the first flight video as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgEb_2JweqM The oven in the background is a freebie from a friend who was re-doing their kitchen. I bought a powder-coating rig so if anybody wants their LRI probe powdercoated red, yellow, blue, black or white, let me know. I did my intake manifold the other day in black and it came out great. Pictures coming soon. Take care, Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ CH601XL, N5SL -----Original Message----- From: dj45@modempool.com Sent: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 3:01 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI pickup Sorry Guys, I just got off the phone with the machinist and he wants $70 each for the LRI. Scott Laughlin (cookingwithgas@hotmail.com)sells them for $50 plus the face and instructions. So I guess that would be the way to go. Scott is trying to get his plane in the air, so maybe it will be awhile before he can get too them. If you just can't wait, this guy can do them now. I got more time than money, If you are short on time let me know. Dan Stanton 90% done 90% to go 801, Deltahawk Diesel _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:33 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Strapping the Stab Ron, According to my interpretation of the construction manual, rivets don't need to be perfectly in the center of the flange, as long as it is 3 times the diameter of the hole (2 times diameter as minimum) away from the edge it is ok (page 5 in my manual). This means 6 mm minimum distance from the edge. It is important that the nose of the sking is well aligned with the nose of the end ribs. Before doing any drilling, you can mark the front spar flange thru the sking hole with a sharpie and then remove the sking and check the mark distance to the edge in order to determine how close it is. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Hi All, Relative newbie lurker here. I have started my 601XT with kits from Zenith. Rudder went together fine. I am now on the stab and have what may be a dumb question. Here goes - the kit comes with alignment holes drilled for the skin. I have attached the lower side, turned everything over and am ready to close. If I follow the procedure of using the straps to pull everything into alignment, I quickly pull the forward flange pre-drilled holes in the skin past the center line of the flange. Shouldn't I just line up the holes with the midline I have drawn on the flange, drill and cleco? Wouldn't that guarantee alignment of the rest of the skin? What am I misssing here? Do not archive. Ron 601XL San Diego ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Not making enough money? Click here to get free info on medical jobs http://tags.bluebottle.com/fc/CAaCMPJk1mHgOrC1zqUDm2q69eiiqXS2/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:03 AM PST US From: "paul baker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Strapping the Stab actua;;y. wrong subject. I purchased a 601-hd last fall,The engine cover goes on the inside of the fuselage and is hard to install. I noticed on some of the pictures that now the cowling goes on the outside. Does anyone have pictures and details of changing from inside to outside? Paul baker---58 years flying spam cans pbaker4@windstream.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:03 AM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Zenith-List: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas Hi everyone. I'll start by introducing myself. I'm Tom, from Northern New Jersey. I'm a private pilot with 100 hours experience and a glider pilot with 50 or so hours experience. I've never built even a model airplane before, but consider myself handy. I just ordered a rudder starter kit along with some tools from Zenithair for the CH701, and I can't wait to start building so I can determine if it's within my capabilities to build the entire thing. As a complete beginner to aircraft construction, I have several questions that I'm sure many of you have the answers to. CORROSION PROTECTION: 1) I've learned that zinc-chromate is a carcinogen, and other people have successfully used zinc oxide. How do you treat the aluminum pieces for corrosion protection and what do YOU use? Who is your supplier? 2) Should ALL the surfaces be coated if seaplane operations may be in the foreseeable future? What additional protection needs to be performed on the rudder kit if this may be an option? 3) Do you have to scrub off any oxidation before protection? What do you use to clean off the aluminum (I read somewhere that scotch-brite is bad)? PAINT: 1) Engine first, then paint? What kind of paint, and how does one apply it? Will I need to take this to a professional or can I spray it myself? COST OF OWNERSHIP: 1) Since I do not have a high number of hours under my belt, I expect insurance companies will not want to insure me at a reasonable rate. Anyone have experience with this? 2) Maintenance - What scheduled maintenance must be performed, and how much does it cost to overhaul a Rotax 912(S)? GOTCHAS 1) What kind of "gotcha's" can I expect when building the CH701? They say hindsight is 20/20....can I borrow your collective hindsights? Thanks in advance! Tom L. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:30 AM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI plus new Machine (was LRI pickup) Scott, I like your video. The music fits very well with this group. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Laughlin" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: LRI plus new Machine (was LRI pickup) > > > Dan, thanks for the email to the group about my $50 LRI probe. > > I currently have three probes to send out filling my final orders. I > started on a few extras just in case anyone else needs one. Yes, my 601 > is nearing completion so I will be reporting on test flying soon with an > email or two and maybe a video. > > While it was too cold in Nebraska to do any polishing (our much of > anything else on the airplane) over the last few months, I've been working > on another machine in my garage that has been a lot of fun. Here's a > video of a CNC milling machine I built. My daughter added the music and > helped me with the video - I'm hoping she helps me with the first flight > video as well: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgEb_2JweqM > > The oven in the background is a freebie from a friend who was re-doing > their kitchen. I bought a powder-coating rig so if anybody wants their > LRI probe powdercoated red, yellow, blue, black or white, let me know. I > did my intake manifold the other day in black and it came out great. > Pictures coming soon. > > Take care, > > Scott Laughlin > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ > CH601XL, N5SL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dj45@modempool.com > Sent: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 3:01 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI pickup > > > Sorry Guys, > I just got off the phone with the machinist and he wants $70 each for the > LRI. > Scott Laughlin (cookingwithgas@hotmail.com)sells them for $50 plus the > face and > > instructions. So I guess that would be the way to go. > Scott is trying to get his plane in the air, so maybe it will be awhile > before > > he can get too them. If you just can't wait, this guy can do them now. > I got more time than money, If you are short on time let me know. > > Dan Stanton > 90% done 90% to go > 801, Deltahawk Diesel > > _________________________________________________________________ > Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a > month. Intro*Terms > https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:15 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas Tom, There have been MANY posts on corrosion protection in just the past few months. Please check the archives. It's not a 3 sentence explanation. If you have any questions on how to provide the best protection for a seaplane (I'm building a 701 on amphibs that will be used in seawater) give me a note offlist. LOW&SLOW John ( jnbolding1"at" teleshare"dot" net) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Lutz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:04 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas CORROSION PROTECTION: 1) I've learned that zinc-chromate is a carcinogen, and other people have successfully used zinc oxide. How do you treat the aluminum pieces for corrosion protection and what do YOU use? Who is your supplier? 2) Should ALL the surfaces be coated if seaplane operations may be in the foreseeable future? What additional protection needs to be performed on the rudder kit if this may be an option? 3) Do you have to scrub off any oxidation before protection? What do you use to clean off the aluminum (I read somewhere that scotch-brite is bad)? PAINT: 1) Engine first, then paint? What kind of paint, and how does one apply it? Will I need to take this to a professional or can I spray it myself? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:30 AM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Zenith-List: Bob Bushby Hello group ,this is not Zenith related however I thought it worth passing on .Yesterday my wife and myself had lunch with Bob Bushby and his lovely wife Sharon.I am sure that most of you know that Bob Bushby is the designer of the Mustang 2 aircraft .His daughter lives in Texas close to me and Bob lives in Illinois .We spent some time together last year at this same time .I feel very honored that he has taken me as a friend and enjoys my company as much as I enjoy him .We are putting our heads together along with some old Continental engines I have trying to adapt an 0-200 rear case to an A65 Cont. engine .Anyone on the site have a -9 rear case for an A65 engine ,this is different from the -8 and will accept a starter .Sorry about the non Zenith rambling just wanted all to know that I am proud to spend some time with Bob Bushby. Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:55 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: LRI plus new Machine (was LRI pickup) >The music fits very well with this group. Just guessing, is the selection Jethro Tull's: " Thick as a Brick"? Yuks, Randy, LV Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:01 AM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Bob Bushby Hey Wade, Re: Bob Bushby I would have sent this direct if you had included your personal email address. I hope others on this site will please indulge us. I built a Midget Mustang I, from plans in 1967 thru 1971. Got to know Bob Bushby at that time. A little later two friends built a MMI and a MMII . I got to fly both of them quite a bit along with my MMI. I have kept in touch with both Bob and Chris and the current Mustang Aeronautics bunch. A few years ago, while at Sun n Fun, I invited Bob to stop by and visit me at the small airport where I live south of Atlanta. He did stop in and would you believe I wasn't here at the time! Bob has a EAA number in the first 100. I always enjoy visiting with him too. Jim Hoak 601HD - Rotax 912UL - 540 hrs. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: wade jones To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:00 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Bob Bushby Hello group ,this is not Zenith related however I thought it worth passing on .Yesterday my wife and myself had lunch with Bob Bushby and his lovely wife Sharon.I am sure that most of you know that Bob Bushby is the designer of the Mustang 2 aircraft .His daughter lives in Texas close to me and Bob lives in Illinois .We spent some time together last year at this same time .I feel very honored that he has taken me as a friend and enjoys my company as much as I enjoy him .We are putting our heads together along with some old Continental engines I have trying to adapt an 0-200 rear case to an A65 Cont. engine .Anyone on the site have a -9 rear case for an A65 engine ,this is different from the -8 and will accept a starter .Sorry about the non Zenith rambling just wanted all to know that I am proud to spend some time with Bob Bushby. Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Rib forms From: "jhines" Does anyone out there want to sell their old rib forms? I'm having a moment of lazyness I guess but I just thought I would ask. John www.johnsplane.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100505#100505 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:36 AM PST US From: Hays Jeff Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Hi - I've been lurking on the list for a while, I am a current CH801 builder. This is my second aircraft project, the first was a Kitfox Series 5 powered by an Continental IO-240B. Which I have been flying for almost 5 years now. My current, and old projects are on my website http://www.aselia.com which is a project in itself, and not nearly complete. Anyway, the reason for the post - Is because I am simply aggravated by the quality of documentation these kitplanes have. This is not unique to Zenith, as Skystar had terrible manuals as well. With regard to this CH801 there is not a single part of this project, that I did not have to do some degree of rework, which was caused by following Zenith's poor directions. It is certainly possible to figure out how to build these things, and come out with a decent product. However, the manuals are simply terrible. The procedures in themselves are flawed, they are poorly described, and the writing quality as well is poor. In some parts there's a photo showing a part assembled in one direction, and a diagram showing the part going in completely the opposite direction (flaperon splice plate for instance)! Now if you look at the updates doc online, it is notated in there. However the manual is revision date 2001 .... Duh. How hard would that be to fix? 5 minutes in Adobe Acrobat to edit the file. I am resigned to the fact that this is simply the way it is, that the planes I want are designed and kitted by a decent enough guy. But then the Kit business that evolves around that plane takes on it's own life, and the people who sell and support the design are neccesarily up to par with the original designer. Anyway the whole subject is annoying - Do other builders feel the way I do? Regards, Jeff ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:26 AM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation AGREED! N601ZV DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hays Jeff" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation > > Hi - > > I've been lurking on the list for a while, I am a current CH801 builder. > > This is my second aircraft project, the first was a Kitfox Series 5 > powered by an Continental IO-240B. Which I have been flying for almost 5 > years now. > > My current, and old projects are on my website http://www.aselia.com which > is a project in itself, and not nearly complete. > > Anyway, the reason for the post - Is because I am simply aggravated by the > quality of documentation these kitplanes have. This is not unique to > Zenith, as Skystar had terrible manuals as well. With regard to this CH801 > there is not a single part of this project, that I did not have to do some > degree of rework, which was caused by following Zenith's poor directions. > > It is certainly possible to figure out how to build these things, and come > out with a decent product. However, the manuals are simply terrible. The > procedures in themselves are flawed, they are poorly described, and the > writing quality as well is poor. In some parts there's a photo showing a > part assembled in one direction, and a diagram showing the part going in > completely the opposite direction (flaperon splice plate for instance)! > Now if you look at the updates doc online, it is notated in there. However > the manual is revision date 2001 .... Duh. How hard would that be to fix? > 5 minutes in Adobe Acrobat to edit the file. > > I am resigned to the fact that this is simply the way it is, that the > planes I want are designed and kitted by a decent enough guy. But then the > Kit business that evolves around that plane takes on it's own life, and > the people who sell and support the design are neccesarily up to par with > the original designer. > > Anyway the whole subject is annoying - Do other builders feel the way I > do? > > Regards, > Jeff > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:41 AM PST US From: "Charles Wacker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation I think that it is important to put into perspective what it is that we love to do first. I enjoy the challenge of build a plane. The manuals are not the best this is true. In fact if you go by Zenith's suggestion the drawings are the rulke not the photo manual. I come from an engineering background and I can tell you one thing for sure, ENGINEERS WRITE BAD MANUALS. There is a reason for this, they are to close to the project and they know to much. The result is that they think the user of the manual knows as much as they do. Manual writting is a science and art to itself. I had a writter thsat worked for me that as much as the engineers did and the result was a first class manual that worked for the person who knew nothing. As a test of a manual for an new product release we always gave the product and draft manual to one of the plant works to install and operate the machine. While we expected some problems from someone who was not fimilar with the use of the product we were confident that it was pretty complete. Let's not slam Zenith for doing what engineers do. We can always call them with questions and they will always, my experience, guide us down the right path. Chuck Wacker N601CW, Quick Build PS I'm and engineer and cannot spell. >From: Hays Jeff >To: zenith >Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT) > > >Hi - > >I've been lurking on the list for a while, I am a current CH801 builder. > >This is my second aircraft project, the first was a Kitfox Series 5 powered >by an Continental IO-240B. Which I have been flying for almost 5 years now. > >My current, and old projects are on my website http://www.aselia.com which >is a project in itself, and not nearly complete. > >Anyway, the reason for the post - Is because I am simply aggravated by the >quality of documentation these kitplanes have. This is not unique to >Zenith, as Skystar had terrible manuals as well. With regard to this CH801 >there is not a single part of this project, that I did not have to do some >degree of rework, which was caused by following Zenith's poor directions. > >It is certainly possible to figure out how to build these things, and come >out with a decent product. However, the manuals are simply terrible. The >procedures in themselves are flawed, they are poorly described, and the >writing quality as well is poor. In some parts there's a photo showing a >part assembled in one direction, and a diagram showing the part going in >completely the opposite direction (flaperon splice plate for instance)! Now >if you look at the updates doc online, it is notated in there. However the >manual is revision date 2001 .... Duh. How hard would that be to fix? 5 >minutes in Adobe Acrobat to edit the file. > >I am resigned to the fact that this is simply the way it is, that the >planes I want are designed and kitted by a decent enough guy. But then the >Kit business that evolves around that plane takes on it's own life, and the >people who sell and support the design are neccesarily up to par with the >original designer. > >Anyway the whole subject is annoying - Do other builders feel the way I do? > >Regards, >Jeff > > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:44 AM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Jeff, I couldn't agree more. I would hate to be a first time builder on the Zenith products. I know alot of people are, itmust be even more difficult without any knowledge of aircraft construction. It's not really a fair comparison, but I have built on Van's airplanes and their kits and plans are excellent. I try not to compare them but it's hard not to. If someone that can write good technical manuals would go through the build process and organize it as it should be it would be much better. Trouble is it all costs money and it's easier said than done. So, speaking for myself ( one of the other 801 builders ), I will continue on and hope I don't have to buy to many replacement parts. Dave in Salem do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hays Jeff" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation > > Hi - > > I've been lurking on the list for a while, I am a current CH801 builder. > > This is my second aircraft project, the first was a Kitfox Series 5 > powered by an Continental IO-240B. Which I have been flying for almost 5 > years now. > > My current, and old projects are on my website http://www.aselia.com which > is a project in itself, and not nearly complete. > > Anyway, the reason for the post - Is because I am simply aggravated by the > quality of documentation these kitplanes have. This is not unique to > Zenith, as Skystar had terrible manuals as well. With regard to this CH801 > there is not a single part of this project, that I did not have to do some > degree of rework, which was caused by following Zenith's poor directions. > > It is certainly possible to figure out how to build these things, and come > out with a decent product. However, the manuals are simply terrible. The > procedures in themselves are flawed, they are poorly described, and the > writing quality as well is poor. In some parts there's a photo showing a > part assembled in one direction, and a diagram showing the part going in > completely the opposite direction (flaperon splice plate for instance)! > Now if you look at the updates doc online, it is notated in there. However > the manual is revision date 2001 .... Duh. How hard would that be to fix? > 5 minutes in Adobe Acrobat to edit the file. > > I am resigned to the fact that this is simply the way it is, that the > planes I want are designed and kitted by a decent enough guy. But then the > Kit business that evolves around that plane takes on it's own life, and > the people who sell and support the design are neccesarily up to par with > the original designer. > > Anyway the whole subject is annoying - Do other builders feel the way I > do? > > Regards, > Jeff > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:47 AM PST US From: MacDonald Doug Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas First, welcome to the world of Zenith Aircraft. I am currently entering the "Systems" stage of building the fuselage of my CH-701. That means (to me)engine, controls, electrical, etc. One great resource you might consider is Jon Croke's homebuilthelp.com DVD series. He is building his third CH-701 and has several how too DVDs specifically related to the assembly and manufacture of these neat little planes. As for Gotchas that I have found with mine (I'm scratch building). I found the skinning of the elevator to be a bit of a challenge. There is a whole chapter in the assembly manual on finding the center of the elevator rib. Problem is they refer to is in a different way later on in the manual when it comes time to skin the elevator. I forget the exact terms but that were used but they mean the same. Use the same point. Another great tip I found is when handling the thin 016 skins for the elevator and stab, it works well to duct tape four or so 1"X3/4" strips of wood the length of the skin. It adds significant rigidity to the metal and helps reduce the "smiley" tendency (smileys are not good in this case). Then when you pull on the straps to tighten the skin, the forces spread more evenly and the finished project looks much better. While it mentions using boards to spread the load in the manual, I found that by attaching the strips as soon as you start to work with the skins, they are much easier to handle. Hope this information helps with your building. I've been at it almost a year now. If I'd gone with the kit I'd likely be flying by now but I would have missed out on some great experiences. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada do not archive Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:47 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Oshkosh Area Zenith Builders/Owners List, Not a technical item. I would appreciate Zenith Builders/Owners in the Oshkosh Wisc. area to contact me directly at planejim@bellsouth.net I have a personal favor to ask of you. The first names of the two gentlemen I can remember Al and Ken; those who I have met at AirVenture. Thanks in advance do not archive Jim Hoak 601HD - 912UL - 540 hours. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:00 PM PST US From: "Jim Hoak" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas Tom, Welcome to the world of Zenith Builders. I built a 601HD ( flying over 10 years and 540 hours ) and am helping a friend with 701 ( on gear, wings on, starting engine installation ). I'd be glad to share some builders info and a few precautions with you. Please contact me off site at planejim@bellsouth.net and I'll email you the info without boring everyone else. do not archive Jim Hoak ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Lutz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:04 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas Hi everyone. I'll start by introducing myself. I'm Tom, from Northern New Jersey. I'm a private pilot with 100 hours experience and a glider pilot with 50 or so hours experience. I've never built even a model airplane before, but consider myself handy. I just ordered a rudder starter kit along with some tools from Zenithair for the CH701, and I can't wait to start building so I can determine if it's within my capabilities to build the entire thing. As a complete beginner to aircraft construction, I have several questions that I'm sure many of you have the answers to. CORROSION PROTECTION: 1) I've learned that zinc-chromate is a carcinogen, and other people have successfully used zinc oxide. How do you treat the aluminum pieces for corrosion protection and what do YOU use? Who is your supplier? 2) Should ALL the surfaces be coated if seaplane operations may be in the foreseeable future? What additional protection needs to be performed on the rudder kit if this may be an option? 3) Do you have to scrub off any oxidation before protection? What do you use to clean off the aluminum (I read somewhere that scotch-brite is bad)? PAINT: 1) Engine first, then paint? What kind of paint, and how does one apply it? Will I need to take this to a professional or can I spray it myself? COST OF OWNERSHIP: 1) Since I do not have a high number of hours under my belt, I expect insurance companies will not want to insure me at a reasonable rate. Anyone have experience with this? 2) Maintenance - What scheduled maintenance must be performed, and how much does it cost to overhaul a Rotax 912(S)? GOTCHAS 1) What kind of "gotcha's" can I expect when building the CH701? They say hindsight is 20/20....can I borrow your collective hindsights? Thanks in advance! Tom L. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Center console From: "eddies" Hi Tim, Have a look at this link to a picture on my website; http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=eddieseve&project=89&category=0&log=24760&row=40 Regards, Eddie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100553#100553 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms From: "jhines" Oops. I forgot to mention that I am building a 601XL. -------- John Hines Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100558#100558 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:10 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: Cowl hinge wires (was XL Center console) Hi Eddie, I was looking at the great photos of your project on the kitlog site. I see you are joining the top and bottom halves of the cowl with hinges. How do you draw the hinge pins out through the front of the cowl? Do the hinges stop far enough back from the inlets that the wire can bend and pass through the inlet? Any close-up photos of this area? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:29 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Zenith-List: LRI, yes Folks, With all the talk about the LRI, I did a "google" search (click on link below). The talk on this site, and the article below have convinced me that I shall install the LRI system in my airplane.--- www.liftreserve.com/STORY.htm Thanks to all for bringing this to my attention . Fritz XL, Corvair, 90/90 --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "Gig Giacona" I'm a first time builder and have done my share of bitching about the manuals. One thing that helped was when I stopped using the manual that they sent me and started downloading and printing a section at a time. I don't know about the 801 manual but the 601 manual is much better now than it was when I bought my first kit section in 2002. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100569#100569 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:22 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas I will add my 2 cents worth. If the directions say to use four ratchet s traps to chinch up the skins you should double that. Four more straps ar e far cheaper then a new skin or the time to do the process over. That s preads to load over a smaller area per strap and helps to get a better finished product. YMMV do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- MacDonald Doug wrote: First, welcome to the world of Zenith Aircraft. I am currently entering the "Systems" stage of building the fuselage of my CH-701. That means (to me)engine, controls, electrical, etc. One great resource you might consider is Jon Croke's homebuilthelp.com DVD series. He is building his third CH-701 and has several how too DVDs specifically related to the assembly and manufacture of these neat little planes. As for Gotchas that I have found with mine (I'm scratch building). I found the skinning of the elevator to be a bit of a challenge. There is a whole chapter in the assembly manual on finding the center of the elevator rib. Problem is they refer to is in a different way later on in the manual when it comes time to skin the elevator. I forget the exact terms but that were used but they mean the same. Use the same point. Another great tip I found is when handling the thin 016 skins for the elevator and stab, it works well to duct tape four or so 1"X3/4" strips of wood the length of the skin. It adds significant rigidity to the metal and helps reduce the "smiley" tendency (smileys are not good in this case). Then when you pull on the straps to tighten the skin, the forces spread more evenly and the finished project looks much better. While it mentions using boards to spread the load in the manual, I found that by attaching the strips as soon as you start to work with the skins, they are much easier to handle. Hope this information helps with your building. I've been at it almost a year now. If I'd gone with the kit I'd likely be flying by now but I would have missed out on some great experiences. Doug MacDonald CH-701 Scratch Builder NW Ontario, Canada do not archive Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

I will add my 2 cents worth. If the directions say to use four ratchet straps to chinch up the skins you should double that. Four more straps are far cheaper then a new skin or the time to do the process ove r. That spreads to load over a smaller area  per strap and hel ps to get a better finished product. YMMV

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>  wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by : MacDonald Doug <dougsnash@yahoo.com>

First , welcome to the world of Zenith Airc raft.  I am
currently entering the "Sys tems" stage of building the
fuselage of  ;my CH-701.  That means (to me)engine,
controls, electrical, etc.  

One great&n bsp;resource you might consider is Jon Cro ke's
homebuilthelp.com DVD series.  He is&nb sp;building his
third CH-701 and has several  how too DVDs specifically
related to t he assembly and manufacture of these neat< BR>little planes.

As for Gotchas that I& nbsp;have found with mine (I'm
scratch build ing).  I found the skinning of the
elevator to be a bit of a challenge.   There is a whole
chapter in the& nbsp;assembly manual on finding the center
o f the elevator rib.  Problem is they& nbsp;refer to is in a
different way lat er on in the manual when it comes
time to skin the elevator.  I forget& nbsp;the exact terms
but that were used  ;but they mean the same.  Use the
same point.

Another great tip I found&nb sp;is when handling the thin
016 skins  for the elevator and stab, it works w ell to
duct tape four or so 1"X3/4"&nbs p;strips of wood the length
of the skin .  It adds significant rigidity to th e
metal and helps reduce the "smiley" t endency (smileys
are not good in this c ase).  Then when you pull on the
s traps to tighten the skin, the forces  ;spread more
evenly and the finished project  looks much better. 
While it mentions& nbsp;using boards to spread the load in
the manual, I found that by attaching&nbs p;the strips as
soon as you start to&nb sp;work with the skins, they are
much e asier to handle.

Hope this information h elps with your building.  I've
been at& nbsp;it almost a year now.  If I'd&nb sp;gone with the
kit I'd likely be flyi ng by now but I would have
missed  out on some great experiences.

Doug MacD onald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canad a

do not archive





 
Bored  stiff? Loosen up... 
Download and play  hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! ======================== ======================== sp;   - The Zenith-List Email Forum&n  utilities such as the Subscriptions page, ======================== ========================      - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO ======================== ======================== ======
________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:10 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Wiring I am wiring the flap motor for my XL and encountered a problem. The two limit switches have six connect points. Two are the "COM" points in top. No problem. The "NO" & "NC" connectors are on the ends of the limit switches, two facing up and two facing down. All these connecting points have VERY tiny screws and lockwashers. The schematic in the drawings calls for connections to the "NC" points, which (naturally) are facing down. One would have to use a tiny, right angle screwdriver to work the screws because the actuator rod and screw would be in the way of a straight screwdriver; and a mirror to see what you are doing. Looked virtually impossible to me. I asked Roger at ZAC how to do this and his solution was to remove the whole flap actuator to wire it! HUH? Since the "NO" contacts are facing up, I decided to redo the schematic to use those instead of the "NC" contacts. If anyone is interested, I can send my revised schematic. Hint: Wire the flap limit switches before the side skin is riveted in place. Or use the revised schematic. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:59 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms Hi John ,most of the forms are made from 3/4" mdf .This is a very heavy material and shipping would be expensive unless someone is within driving distance .The cost is $20.00+ for a 4' X8' sheet .I am sure that some other 601XL builder would send you the full size profile .Then all that is required is to spray glue the paper onto the MDF and cut around the profile. Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: "jhines" Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms > > Oops. I forgot to mention that I am building a 601XL. > > -------- > John Hines > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100558#100558 > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:19 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flap Wiring Or use a Ultra Fine Point Sharpie to mark their positions on the suuport rod, loosen the set screws on the switches, rotate them on the rod to allow better access to the screws, do the connections, then reposition the switches on the rod. Much easier than working upside down or blindly by feel. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:54 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Flap Wiring I am wiring the flap motor for my XL and encountered a problem. The two limit switches have six connect points. Two are the "COM" points in top. No problem. The "NO" & "NC" connectors are on the ends of the limit switches, two facing up and two facing down. All these connecting points have VERY tiny screws and lockwashers. The schematic in the drawings calls for connections to the "NC" points, which (naturally) are facing down. One would have to use a tiny, right angle screwdriver to work the screws because the actuator rod and screw would be in the way of a straight screwdriver; and a mirror to see what you are doing. Looked virtually impossible to me. I asked Roger at ZAC how to do this and his solution was to remove the whole flap actuator to wire it! HUH? Since the "NO" contacts are facing up, I decided to redo the schematic to use those instead of the "NC" contacts. If anyone is interested, I can send my revised schematic. Hint: Wire the flap limit switches before the side skin is riveted in place. Or use the revised schematic. Jay in Dallas -- 3/14/2007 3:38 PM ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:03 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flap Wiring Actually for each block you can leave the block in place and just unscrew the two screws holding the microswitch from it. That way you don't loose the adjustment. But you will probably have to adjust the limits anyway when you test the whole setup. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:07 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms Printable CAD outlines for the rib templates can be found here: http://www.ch601.org/builder%20resources.htm -- Craig ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:41 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flap Wiring Hi Jay, I just dealt with that whole issue a couple of weeks ago, so it is reasonably fresh in my mind. First, let me say the way I connected the wires was to crimp some small "o" terminals onto the wires and then completely remove the little screws and replace them with the "o" captured. Second, I don't know if you can get the same function of the circuit using the Normally Open connections on these switches instead of the Normally Closed positions. The idea is to disconnect the motor circuit when the limit is reached so the motor will stop before putting too much stress on the flap linkage and nearby parts. This works by using the Normally Closed position on the switch so it becomes an Open circuit when the limit is reached. I am curious how you can get the same function using the Normally Open contacts. Now for the good part -- You need to adjust the position of the limit switches to get the proper movement of your flaps. There is a little set screw holding the switch in place on the grooved bar. You can also loosen the set screws and completely remove the switches. This makes connecting the wiring harness a lot easier. Then you can replace the switches and adjust their final position before tightening the set screws again. When my assembly arrived there was some kind of goup on the set screws. I don't know what this was or if it is really necessary. I would be delighted to hear from anyone if this is necessary and what kind of stuff to use. I presume it is some kind of Locktite or paint or something else to prevent the screw from moving. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 03:54 PM 3/14/2007, you wrote: > >I am wiring the flap motor for my XL and encountered a problem. The >two limit switches have six connect points. Two are the "COM" >points in top. No problem. The "NO" & "NC" connectors are on the >ends of the limit switches, two facing up and two facing down. All >these connecting points have VERY tiny screws and lockwashers. The >schematic in the drawings calls for connections to the "NC" points, >which (naturally) are facing down. One would have to use a tiny, >right angle screwdriver to work the screws because the actuator rod >and screw would be in the way of a straight screwdriver; and a >mirror to see what you are doing. Looked virtually impossible to >me. I asked Roger at ZAC how to do this and his solution was to >remove the whole flap actuator to wire it! HUH? > >Since the "NO" contacts are facing up, I decided to redo the >schematic to use those instead of the "NC" contacts. If anyone is >interested, I can send my revised schematic. > >Hint: Wire the flap limit switches before the side skin is riveted >in place. Or use the revised schematic. > >Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:11 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas I'll try to answer each of your questions CORROSION PROTECTION: 1) I've learned that zinc-chromate is a carcinogen, and other people have successfully used zinc oxide. How do you treat the aluminum pieces for corrosion protection and what do YOU use? Who is your supplier? You have to be careful using both. I used Tempo zinc chromate primer spray cans purchased at West Marine. They have an online store westmarine.com. They also have it in a can which I thinned out and brushed on the skin interiors. For prepping aluminum, I cleaned it in soap and water with 7557 brown scotchbrite and gave it a bath in alodine mixed with a little water for a minute or less , let dry then prime. You can get a gallon of alodine from Aircraft Spruce. Prep for the skins was just clean with soap and water then prime(interior only). On the outside of the skins I gave a quick spray with ZC on the rivet lines, so the rivet sat on the primer. 2) Should ALL the surfaces be coated if seaplane operations may be in the foreseeable future? What additional protection needs to be performed on the rudder kit if this may be an option? I live on the east end of Long Island, NY surrounded on three sides by salt water, all this with the intention of putting the plane on floats one day with some saltwater operations. What I am doing might be overkill for your situation. I built my rudder at the factory and left the interior as is. 3) Do you have to scrub off any oxidation before protection? What do you use to clean off the aluminum (I read somewhere that scotch-brite is bad)? Some scotchbrites are bad, I used 7557 brown, I couldn't tell you if its bad but it works great. PAINT: 1) Engine first, then paint? What kind of paint, and how does one apply it? Will I need to take this to a professional or can I spray it myself? I have installed my engine without painting the airframe, but I did use a ceramic engine paint in cans to do the firewall and engine mount. I have a friend with a brother who does painting. He has a portable paint booth he brings to your house. I'm seriously considering this with me as the assistant. Mine will be sprayed with enamel auto paint. Many on the list have done their own. If you want to see pics of my construction, go to _www.701Builder.com_ (http://www.701builder.com/) . I have posted all the good pics I have to date on my construction, in basic order of building although I did jump back and forth between assemblies. I haven't added many descriptions for these pics but it might give you an idea what to expect and use as a reference. Make sure to sign the guestbook! Brian


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:37 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge The info for the gauge I have seen listed several times as appropriate for the LRI (DWYER 2-5002} specifies vertical mounting only. Given the angles that the instrument will be in and the forces it will be subjected to during various phases of flight, is there any concern for the long term accuracy and durability of the gauge? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:04 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge Not so far, a company has been using the same gauge commercially for several years without problems. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of raymondj Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge The info for the gauge I have seen listed several times as appropriate for the LRI (DWYER 2-5002} specifies vertical mounting only. Given the angles that the instrument will be in and the forces it will be subjected to during various phases of flight, is there any concern for the long term accuracy and durability of the gauge? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:49 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge Can someone re-send me the link for the cheap gauges again offline, I can't find it in the archives. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ZodieRocket Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:00 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge Not so far, a company has been using the same gauge commercially for several years without problems. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of raymondj Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge The info for the gauge I have seen listed several times as appropriate for the LRI (DWYER 2-5002} specifies vertical mounting only. Given the angles that the instrument will be in and the forces it will be subjected to during various phases of flight, is there any concern for the long term accuracy and durability of the gauge? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:50 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge What company is using this gauge in an airborne system? Thanks, Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ZodieRocket Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:00 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge Not so far, a company has been using the same gauge commercially for several years without problems. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of raymondj Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge The info for the gauge I have seen listed several times as appropriate for the LRI (DWYER 2-5002} specifies vertical mounting only. Given the angles that the instrument will be in and the forces it will be subjected to during various phases of flight, is there any concern for the long term accuracy and durability of the gauge? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:17 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge > What company is using this gauge in an airborne system? www.liftreserve.com/ -- Craig ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:10 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge I'll be darned! Thanks. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:44 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: LRI / AOA gauge > What company is using this gauge in an airborne system? www.liftreserve.com/ -- Craig ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.