---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/15/07: 77 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:45 AM - Re: Re: Rib forms (John Brumpton) 2. 04:04 AM - LRI GAUGE SOURCE --SURPLUS CENTER (Doug Naylor) 3. 04:10 AM - Re: Re: Rib forms (ZodieRocket) 4. 06:20 AM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (dj45) 5. 06:57 AM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (n85ae) 6. 07:04 AM - Re: Strapping the Stab (n85ae) 7. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (LRM) 8. 07:09 AM - Re: Rib forms (ashontz) 9. 07:36 AM - Re: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas (ashontz) 10. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Clyde Barcus) 11. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (NYTerminat@aol.com) 12. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: Rib forms (L. Kilburg) 13. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (NYTerminat@aol.com) 14. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: Strapping the Stab (Dave Ruddiman) 15. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (NYTerminat@aol.com) 16. 08:18 AM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (n85ae) 17. 09:13 AM - Taking delivery of 701 (Tom Lutz) 18. 09:13 AM - Re: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds (japhillipsga@aol.com) 19. 09:36 AM - Jury struts full of water (Keystone Engineering LLC) 20. 09:56 AM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (DaveG601XL) 21. 10:12 AM - Re:Newbie building CH701-Corrosion/Gotchas (MaxNr@aol.com) 22. 10:23 AM - Taking delivery of kits via Common Carrier (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 23. 10:23 AM - Continental Engines (ernie) 24. 10:23 AM - old style wheel pants () 25. 10:27 AM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (Jaybannist@cs.com) 26. 10:33 AM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 () 27. 10:37 AM - Re: Large 701 box (Zed Smith) 28. 10:50 AM - Re: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds (Juan Vega) 29. 10:52 AM - Re: Re:Newbie building CH701-Corrosion/Gotchas (Juan Vega) 30. 11:05 AM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (Bryan Martin) 31. 11:33 AM - Re: Continental Engines (n85ae) 32. 11:33 AM - Re: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds (japhillipsga@aol.com) 33. 11:35 AM - Re: Continental Engines (n85ae) 34. 11:42 AM - Re: Newbie building CH701-Corrosion/Gotchas (n85ae) 35. 12:00 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (NamesChangedTo...) 36. 12:16 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (n85ae) 37. 12:23 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (n85ae) 38. 12:29 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (robert stone) 39. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (NYTerminat@aol.com) 40. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: Large 701 box (Dirk Slabbert) 41. 12:56 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (rickpitcher) 42. 12:58 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (japhillipsga@aol.com) 43. 01:34 PM - 601XL fuel tank baffles (ashontz) 44. 01:35 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (n85ae) 45. 01:37 PM - Re: Cowl hinge wires (was XL Center console) (eddies) 46. 01:38 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (Clyde Barcus) 47. 01:49 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (Terry Phillips) 48. 02:04 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 () 49. 02:04 PM - Re: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds (Klaus Truemper) 50. 02:05 PM - Re: Continental Engines (wade jones) 51. 02:12 PM - Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles (Bryan Martin) 52. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: Taking delivery of 701 (Jeff Davidson) 53. 02:22 PM - Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles (ashontz) 54. 02:44 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (CH701) 55. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles (Bryan Martin) 56. 03:02 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (robert stone) 57. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Strapping the Stab (Bill Naumuk) 58. 03:53 PM - Zenith documentation (Bill Naumuk) 59. 04:12 PM - Re: Zenith documentation (ROBERT SCEPPA) 60. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (n801bh@netzero.com) 61. 04:23 PM - Brake Cylinders (wade jones) 62. 04:27 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (rickpitcher) 63. 04:52 PM - Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles (Tim Juhl) 64. 04:59 PM - Re: Jury struts full of water (Tim Juhl) 65. 05:24 PM - Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles (ashontz) 66. 05:38 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (n85ae) 67. 05:47 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (RURUNY@aol.com) 68. 06:01 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (n85ae) 69. 06:21 PM - Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles (Tim Juhl) 70. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Michael Valentine) 71. 06:58 PM - Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (NYTerminat@aol.com) 72. 07:06 PM - Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles (ashontz) 73. 07:10 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (Paul Mulwitz) 74. 08:37 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (JOHN STARN) 75. 09:02 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (Dave Ruddiman) 76. 09:10 PM - Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation (Dave Thompson) 77. 09:40 PM - Re: Taking delivery of 701 (JOHN STARN) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:46 AM PST US From: "John Brumpton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms Can any one verify that the cad outlines for the ribs found on ch601.org/builder are accurate John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Payne" Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:30 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms > > Printable CAD outlines for the rib templates can be found here: > > http://www.ch601.org/builder%20resources.htm > > -- Craig > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:02 AM PST US From: "Doug Naylor" Subject: Zenith-List: LRI GAUGE SOURCE --SURPLUS CENTER Guys, Yesterday someone asked again where to get the inexpensive DWYER Minihelic gauges to make their own LRI. Here is a link to Surplus Center's where you can get one: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 07030119454305&catname=wheels&qty=1&item=21-1623 They're only $11.95 plus shipping. Usually they go for around $50 new. Information on how to build your own LRI gauge can be found on 601.org. Cheers, Doug _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:25 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms John, the only guarantee is that you print one off and measure it with a steel ruler. This ensures that they print right and you are satisfied with the accuracy. In addition, over time plans change, the 601XL has been refined over the years; it has been harmonized with the 601XL LSA model. This has created some inaccuracies with the cutting layouts. Nevertheless, they are still useful in reducing errors and helping others out. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms Can any one verify that the cad outlines for the ribs found on ch601.org/builder are accurate John -- 3/13/2007 4:51 PM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "dj45" Hi All, I am a first time builder. Built a lot of RC planes but didn't know jack about real aircraft. Chose the Zenith 801 because I am a retired sheetmetal worker and it just seemed like the way to go. Yes, sometimes the manuel didn't explane things very well and I had to do a little thinking on my own, I can do that. Called Zenith one time because a part was made wrong and I couldn't come up with a way to correct it, they sent out the right one the next day. No one should not buy one just because it didn't come with an Easy Button. After awhile you can get your own. My sister/pilot/co-owner got one for us. It is an aircraft we are building, they are complicated machines and do need some thought on the part of the builder to make them as safe as we can. Every detail isn't covered in the manuel but I think after the basic instruction, we should be abel to work our way thru it. After all, getting there is half the fun. -------- Do not archive Dan Stanton 90% done 90% to go 801, IO360 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100677#100677 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:56 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "n85ae" With regards to the builders comments, about accepting the manuals as-is for a hobby we love. So it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry such as aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "mediocre"? At least with regards to the CH801 kit. I can't accept that. This is the only area of aviation which allows for such poor quality. The manuals are substandard quality, even for a high school writing class. How many drawing for the 801 Kit, include dimensions? Virtually none, merely a set of undimensioned drawings. Actually I would almost prefer an accurately dimensioned set of drawings, and no builder's mahual to be honest. Rather than a poor builders manual. Basically, I'm ok with being given a good map, and being told to find my own way. But I get really aggravated by a set of directions, that lead me some place I don't want to be. If you have access to the builder docs online, take a look at: Go to page 12, photo FR2-17 and note the orientation of the bracket to the rib. Look at the subsequent series of photo's. It appears clear how you would assemble the flaperons to each other. http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/flaperon2of3.pdf That bracket is oriented in the wrong direction. If you follow that step and all the following steps, you will discover that not only is the bracket upside down. But that anybody who builds per this photo sequence will have to rework their flaperons. That document is dated 5/99 ... I could fix that error in 5 minutes with Adobe Acrobat, AND repost the pdf file. If the error was there for a few months, or a year even, well ok. But it is in an unrevised 8 year old doc. This is NOT the only case like this, there are many others. Since this is clearly Zenith's error, should the rework cost me, or should it cost them? Well obviously they aren't going to call and reimburse me for my time. That does not mean you cannot build a plane from the kit, with the manuals that are provided. However it does mean that you better be accepting of the fact that your build time is going to be increased by 15-20% due to rework, and trying to clarify things. I don't even have animosity towards Zenith for making mistakes, everybody does. BUT not correcting them, and leaving stuff with known errors out here for years? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100683#100683 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:27 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Strapping the Stab From: "n85ae" You need to snug the skin against the nose ribs, or else you will get really deep dimples when you rivet the skin. Jeff. > Shouldn't I just line up the holes with the midline I have drawn on the flange, drill and cleco? Wouldn't that guarantee alignment of the rest of the skin? > What am I misssing here? > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100685#100685 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:28 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Good post Dan! Having said that, I have a couple of thoughts of my own. SkyHawg is my fourth/three.5 aircraft to build. Zenith by far had the best instruction set of them all. If one wanted a challenge he/she should try to build a set of wings from the then PegaStol kit producer using their instructions translated from French to broken English. That was fun. The new owner is rewriting the manual. The other two were RAF-2000s. Here again we had a translation problem, from Canadian to American. There are differences that slow you down, like on wiring diagrams they had an "E" for the ground connections, which meant Earth. Their were lots more, but it's been too long to remember. And, RAFs were my very first shot at building aircraft, I knew absolutely nothing about aircraft. Just got tired of building cars, thought I would try something different, and it was. For you new builders using Zenith instructions/plans I offer this suggestion. Use the plans as your main reference and the book as a guide. I found the plans to be as correct as could be, but the book can be confusing or even misleading. Learn to read the plans. If you don't know how to read autocad type plans, get some help. Life will be a whole lot easier when you master plan reading. Another of my 2 cents worth. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "dj45" Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:19 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation > > Hi All, > I am a first time builder. Built a lot of RC planes but didn't know jack > about real aircraft. Chose the Zenith 801 because I am a retired > sheetmetal worker and it just seemed like the way to go. > > Yes, sometimes the manuel didn't explane things very well and I had to do > a little thinking on my own, I can do that. > > Called Zenith one time because a part was made wrong and I couldn't come > up with a way to correct it, they sent out the right one the next day. > > No one should not buy one just because it didn't come with an Easy Button. > After awhile you can get your own. My sister/pilot/co-owner got one for > us. > > It is an aircraft we are building, they are complicated machines and do > need some thought on the part of the builder to make them as safe as we > can. Every detail isn't covered in the manuel but I think after the basic > instruction, we should be abel to work our way thru it. > > After all, getting there is half the fun. > > -------- > Do not archive > > Dan Stanton > 90% done 90% to go > 801, IO360 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100677#100677 > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:18 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms From: "ashontz" jkbrumpt(at)sa.chariot.ne wrote: > Can any one verify that the cad outlines for the ribs found on > ch601.org/builder are accurate > John > --- I measured all of mine directly on the MDF just for this reason. Yes, it's time consuming, but considering you have to make a backer (which will really just be the form for the other wing) it's not too bad. Just lay it out on one, cut it, then use the centering holes and bolt it to a blank MDF and trace the other. Then router the edges. Also, when you router, try to find a slightly larger bearing for the router bit. The fact that you're routering a 10 degree angle willactually cut the form down in size about 1mm all around (making it 2mm undersized). You want the bearing to be slightly larger so that it effectively follows the profile of a 90 degree angle rather than an 80 degree profile. When the standard bearing finally bottoms out on the 80 degree angle it's actually cutting off a little more than what you layed it out for. MDF is great stuff to work with though for forms. Strong and yet easy to cut and router for a 1/8" radius, and no need to add an aluminum reinforcing plate, it's plenty strong and a lot more accurate than plywood. I suspect the real reason the aluminum is added to the plywood is because no matter how careful you are cutting the plywood, it'll always have a ragged edge, not so much for the strength. The MDF has no ragged edge and when the form and the backer are clamped in the vise it's plenty strong. Use the center holes for clamping bolts as well as put it in the vise and more clamps all around. Maybe even sandwich the whole thing in the vise with a couple 2x4s lengthwise for extra support. Works great. Figure 2 hours to make a pair of forms and another hour and a half making the rib. 2 weekends and you're done. Use a Dremel tool with a small drum sander to make the flute recesses in the form. Once you have the blank clamped in the vise, put a small crimp at each flute recesses (you'll only be able to put a small one, don't crack the metal) tap the flange over 30 degrees with a rubber mallet, crimp more, tap another 30 degrees, crimp more and tap it flat. Once you're flat, get a p! iece of oak about 1/2" by and inch, round it on the grinder to have a reasonable flute profile and then place it in the flutes and tap those guys and little more, then back to the rubber mallet for another tap down flat, then the flutes again, then a final tap down flat with the rubber mallet. When it comes out of the form it shoud be pretty damn flat with hardly any banana shape. Lay the rib down on the table with the flat side down and push the high spots down and watch which flutes move the move, then crimp them a bit. It should lay perfectly flat once you've tweaked them. If a flute needs to be opened a bit for some reason, use the hand seemer to coax it open a bit, shouldn't take much. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100687#100687 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Newbie building CH701 - Corrosion / Gotchas From: "ashontz" 6061-T6 as is is pretty corrosion resistant. What I'm using for additional corrosion protection is cleaning of the parts witha degreaser, then using Metal Prep 79 to etch the metal, then just spraying the parts with automotive primer. Technically you can build the whole thing with no primers of any sort, but why. Even an automotive primer sprayed on a cleaned etch surface is pretty good, and a hell of a lot better than nothing. I had an aluminum boat that was used in salt water for years, that just had automotive primer on it. The only place I ever really saw any corrosion was where dissimilar metals touched the aluminum. Attach a stainless screw on the boat hull, put it in the water, and wait a year for the aluminum to corrode. The fix to that for boats anyway is to put a sacrificial zinc anode on the boat. The zinc corrodes rather than the aluminum, just like the negative terimal on a battery corrodes becauses that's the flow of electrons. I haven't heard of sacrificial anodes on airplanes (maybe there are) but they're used on boats for sure, even if it's a fiberglass boat, you still put one on the aluminum case on the engine. Seeing as how you're building a seaplane, I'd keep this in mind, this is probably you're best corrosion protection along wth priming everything too. I'd imagine every large part on the plane would need one, which isn't a big deal seeing as how they only weigh a few ounces. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100696#100696 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:50 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation First, I agree the company's response to questions is very good. Second, yes, you have to be able to think on your own to build an aircraft. That said, there is no excuse for incorrect prints, we design and manufacture precision components, I assure you our customers would not accept it. I have found several mistakes on their prints, one as recent as a couple of months ago. The position dimension for a bracket was off by 6mm and it was not possible to put it were it was specified. I called the plant and had them review the dimensions with me, they agreed the print was wrong and suggested what adjustments to make. If this was the first time out with the design, anyone could accept errors but would expect the prints to be revised. I bought the latest prints for updates and that was the set I was using when I found the latest error. Clyde 601 XL Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "dj45" Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:19 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation > > Hi All, > I am a first time builder. Built a lot of RC planes but didn't know jack > about real aircraft. Chose the Zenith 801 because I am a retired > sheetmetal worker and it just seemed like the way to go. > > Yes, sometimes the manuel didn't explane things very well and I had to do > a little thinking on my own, I can do that. > > Called Zenith one time because a part was made wrong and I couldn't come > up with a way to correct it, they sent out the right one the next day. > > No one should not buy one just because it didn't come with an Easy Button. > After awhile you can get your own. My sister/pilot/co-owner got one for > us. > > It is an aircraft we are building, they are complicated machines and do > need some thought on the part of the builder to make them as safe as we > can. Every detail isn't covered in the manuel but I think after the basic > instruction, we should be abel to work our way thru it. > > After all, getting there is half the fun. > > -------- > Do not archive > > Dan Stanton > 90% done 90% to go > 801, IO360 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100677#100677 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:19 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Looks to me like this is the left hand wing flaperon and is layng on the top side for ease of construction. What am I missing? Bob Spudis In a message dated 3/15/2007 9:58:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, n85ae@yahoo.com writes: Go to page 12, photo FR2-17 and note the orientation of the bracket to the rib. Look at the subsequent series of photo's. It appears clear how you would assemble the flaperons to each other. http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/flaperon2of3.pdf That bracket is oriented in the wrong direction. If you follow that step and all the following steps, you will discover that not only is the bracket upside down. But that anybody who builds per this photo sequence will have to rework their flaperons.


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:26 AM PST US From: "L. Kilburg" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms I downloaded the AutoCAD versions and overlaid them on mine done in another CAD system using the 4/04 edition and found them essentially exact. That was a real confidence builder in my own work. Larry Kilburg 601 XL, Eastern Iowa > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > John Brumpton > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:43 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rib forms > > --> > > Can any one verify that the cad outlines for the ribs found > on ch601.org/builder are accurate John -- 3:38 PM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:21 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Larry, The GroundHawg looks terrific. By any chance have you tried it on the road yet? How about the SkyHawg? I have a 40 foot MCI-9 bus here that I am converting to a RV for a Missionary family from Ghana. After that I will be starting a Glastar that I just picked up from Michigan. I will probably put my 701 up for sale at the end of the summer. Bob Spudis In a message dated 3/15/2007 10:09:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lrm@skyhawg.com writes: Their were lots more, but it's been too long to remember. And, RAFs were my very first shot at building aircraft, I knew absolutely nothing about aircraft. Just got tired of building cars, thought I would try something different, and it was. Another of my 2 cents worth. Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:11 AM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Strapping the Stab GOOD LUCK ON GETTING THAT TO WORK. ----- Original Message ----- From: "n85ae" Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:03 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Strapping the Stab > > You need to snug the skin against the nose ribs, or else you will get > really deep dimples when you rivet the skin. > > Jeff. > > >> Shouldn't I just line up the holes with the midline I have drawn on the >> flange, drill and cleco? Wouldn't that guarantee alignment of the rest >> of the skin? >> What am I misssing here? >> > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100685#100685 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:00 AM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Sorry List, That was supposed to go to Larry directly do not archive ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "n85ae" What you are missing, is that the bracket is supposed to point down, not up. The next pictures show setting the 20mm offset between the flaperons. If you follow the photo sequence, and don't realize that the first picture is upside down, you will then set the 20mm shim under the wrong half of the flaperon. In effect reversing the offset from what it is supposed to be. Interestingly the diagram on Zenith's website was changed this morning. It now has a clear picture of the splice plates. Yesterday's file does not have this (I have a printout here on my desk so I'm certain it changed): http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/data/8xa-1.pdf Somebody must be reading this thread. Jeff. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100716#100716 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:02 AM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds From: japhillipsga@aol.com Dear Thread Friends, can anybody provide data on your XL speeds so I can compare with my info ? Need to be equipped with a Jab 3300 with standard FWF Sensenich prop and old style wheel pants. What is best glide speed without and with flaps ? Best climb speed ? Hope to hear back from several of you fine folks, best regards, Bill of Georgia N505WP 601XL-3300 106 Hrs -----Original Message----- From: planejim@bellsouth.net Sent: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 2:35 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Oshkosh Area Zenith Builders/Owners List, Not a technical item. I would appreciate Zenith Builders/Owners in the Oshkosh Wisc. area to contact me directly at planejim@bellsouth.net I have a personal favor to ask of you. The first names of the two gentlemen I can remember Al and Ken; those who I have met at AirVenture. Thanks in advance do not archive Jim Hoak 601HD - 912UL - 540 hours. ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:55 AM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: Jury struts full of water I was installing the fairings on my lift struts last night. When I was drilling the jury strut I found it was full of water. I suggest you install a drain hole in your jury struts. Bill Wilcox N801BW Valdez, Alaska 280 hrs Installing lift strut fairing, fixing gas tank leak and waiting for better flying weather Just passed CFI and FOI written ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Taking delivery of 701 From: "DaveG601XL" I took my 12' long, 350# 601 fuselage box home in my pick-up truck from the trucking terminal. I backed it up to my heavy-duty table in my garage and slid it off onto the table with help from wife and friends. Now your's is quite a bit more heavy but the same methods could apply. You could come-along it onto whatever surface you have. Does the trucker offer home delivery? It will be a bit more expensive, but could be worth it depending on your situation. If they don't, a local moving independant outfit will. Check your local listings. How about a U-haul flat bed? The trucking terminal can fork it onto whatever trucking method you choose. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, starting fueslage. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100738#100738 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:54 AM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Newbie building CH701-Corrosion/Gotchas Do Not Archive 6061 could get by w/o protection. However I live close enough to the Gulf of Mexico to smell it. Zinc Chromate scares me. Paint dealer/buddy fixed me up with some two part Zinc Phosphate like he sells to the USN at NAS Whiting. Label DOES say "professional use only" and "apply top coat within four hours." I only put it on the innards with a small HVLP. Another local builder told me that he used some of that after market corrosion protection on his project. The kind you spray through the inspection ports. Later, could not get paint to stick, no matter what. Going to try some Cortec next that I got from ZAC. Do Not Archive Bob from Pace,FL XL/Lyc ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:14 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of kits via Common Carrier Tommy: Welcome to your first challenge in building your 701 !!! My suggestion would be to have the crate delivered to your place of work (if they have a loading dock) or pick it up at the trucking company terminal. If you are getting the entire plane delivered in one crate it might be too big to transport home in a pickup. Don't laugh - I brought home the crate for my wing kit 12'long x 4' wide x 3' high in the back of my short-bed F-150 - I used a 'cargo extender' from Harbor Freight to support the back end of the crate. Anyway, since your crate is larger than mine get a buddy that works at a towing company to pick up the crate from the terminal with a flatbed transporter and bring it home. A hydraulic lift gate on the delivery truck will not be much help since the crate is so long !!!! And remember two things about common-carriers: 1.) The driver is under NO OBLIGATION to help you with this freight once it is sitting at the tailgate of his truck, and 2) YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for inspecting your freight and being assured it arrived in good condition. If you have ANY DOUBT AT ALL that there might be internal damage uncrate the parts right there and sign the bill of lading as "DAMAGED" and file a claim. If the shipment is so damaged that the goods are unsalvageable refuse the delivery, make note of the bill of lading PRO number (PRO number = tracking number or bill of lading number), and contact Zenith and ask for thier help. 3) If there is 'concealed damage' (damaged goods in the crate where there is no evidence of damage/rough handling on the crate itself) you have close to no chance of getting a claim paid from the carrier, so I suggest you open and inspect/inventory your goods within 24 hours of receipt !! After one day the carrier can safely state YOU damaged the goods and never honor your claim !!!! One note about Zenith (the shipper) in this discussion: once they deliver the crate to the shipping company thier responsibility ends and it is the shipping company responsibility to get the crate to you in good condition. So, if the crate is delivered to you with a LOT of damage, Zenith should be able to put pressure on the carrier to resolve the situation to everyone's satisfaction. Knowing just what the rules are greatly increases your chance of getting treated fairly in the case of damage in transit. Tracy Smith Component kit building wings 30% 601XL N458XL reserved DEFINITELY ARCHIVE !!!! In a message dated 3/15/2007 11:14:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, tommylutz@gmail.com writes: How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:14 AM PST US From: ernie Subject: Zenith-List: Continental Engines Hi list, Has anyone put a continental IO-240 in to their bird? I read some were out there that 240 uses a 0-200 case. It got me thinking that the 0-200 motor mount should work for it. Thanks Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:22 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: old style wheel pants Hi all, If anyone is interested, I have my old style wheelpants for sale again at half price or best offer. Factory price is $450...... these are unused and offered for $225. The first guy who spoke up for them many moons ago has yet to come by and get them, so they are available again. Any builders out there who are interested can contact me off list. Ed Moody II Rayne, LA 601XL/Jabiru/middle top skin ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:34 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Tom, I had the same problem. ZAC ships with Yellow Freight and they are set up to make deliveries to a dock with a semi trailer. I don't know of many homes (or hangers for that matter) that have a dock. Yellow wanted to deliver it to my front curb. My garage faces to the alley, but they wouldn't drive their semi down the alley. I had to pay extra, but I got them to deliver it with a box truck with a hydraulic lift on the back. The Yellow drivers (three different ones) had no problem getting the crates into my garage. Call before the delivery date to avoid delays. Jay in Dallas BTW, I had stipulated on my order to ZAC that it be delivered to the rear; and that was clearly marked on the packing crate. Didn't matter. "Tom Lutz" wrote: >How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone >at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck >if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing >this besides pushing really hard? > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:53 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 My 601XL complete kit arrived in a crate 4' x 4' x 12' that weighed over 900 pounds. I took my 12' x 6' single axle trailer trailer (you can rent something similar if you need to) the freight terminal where the crew jockeyed the crate onto the trailer. Once we got home with it, I used the loading ramps at the back of the trailer to skid the crate onto the garage floor. We had to skid it off the trailer by getting under the front end of the crate with a couple of 4' lengths of pipe. Two of us would pry up with the pipes and the crate would slide down the incline of the pipe moving a foot or two each time. We repeated the process until it was on the garage floor. After that it gets much easier because you can basically dismantle the crate and never have to move the whole mess again. Dred ---- Tom Lutz wrote: > How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone > at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck > if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing > this besides pushing really hard? ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:13 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Large 701 box do not archive This subject came up previously. Several methods were suggested; most involved the liberal use of gravity. WD-40 was on the list, along with free beer for strong-back neighbors, un-packing the box on your truck, engaging the services of a wrecker service (hoist), and some mention of high explosives. Seriously, if the freight company has a delivery truck with a powered lift gate, that's the easy way. If you take a flat trailer to the freight docks they may not be able to load from the side because of rails on the trailer.....fork lift limitations. Then you'll still have to get it off the trailer. A neighbor recently took delivery of a large crate via the lift gate method. He put two automotive mechanic creepers under it and rolled the entire thing into his shop (concrete driveway). At least that method got it inside where he could deal with unpacking at his leisure. Regards, and good luck! Zed/etc ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:35 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds bill, how is the plane flying, what cruise speeds are you getting, EGT and RPMs? Juan 601/3300 -----Original Message----- >From: japhillipsga@aol.com >Sent: Mar 15, 2007 12:12 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds > >Dear Thread Friends, can anybody provide data on your XL speeds so I can compare with my info ? Need to be equipped with a Jab 3300 with standard FWF Sensenich prop and old style wheel pants. What is best glide speed without and with flaps ? Best climb speed ? Hope to hear back from several of you fine folks, best regards, Bill of Georgia >N505WP >601XL-3300 106 Hrs > > >-----Original Message----- >From: planejim@bellsouth.net >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 2:35 PM >Subject: Zenith-List: Oshkosh Area Zenith Builders/Owners > > > >List, > >Not a technical item. I would appreciate Zenith Builders/Owners in the Oshkosh Wisc. area to contact me directly at planejim@bellsouth.net I have a personal favor to ask of you. The first names of the two gentlemen I can remember Al and Ken; those who I have met at AirVenture. Thanks in advance > >do not archive > >Jim Hoak 601HD - 912UL - 540 hours. > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:35 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Newbie building CH701-Corrosion/Gotchas he probably used corrosionX , paint will never stick after application, it does its job too well. -----Original Message----- >From: MaxNr@aol.com >Sent: Mar 15, 2007 1:11 PM >To: Zenith-List@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Newbie building CH701-Corrosion/Gotchas > >Do Not Archive >6061 could get by w/o protection. However I live close enough to the Gulf of >Mexico to smell it. Zinc Chromate scares me. Paint dealer/buddy fixed me up >with some two part Zinc Phosphate like he sells to the USN at NAS Whiting. Label >DOES say "professional use only" and "apply top coat within four hours." I >only put it on the innards with a small HVLP. Another local builder told me that >he used some of that after market corrosion protection on his project. The >kind you spray through the inspection ports. Later, could not get paint to >stick, no matter what. Going to try some Cortec next that I got from ZAC. >Do Not Archive >Bob from Pace,FL >XL/Lyc > > >************************************** > AOL now offers free email to >everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:52 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Buy, borrow or steal a pickup truck or van and either drive it down to the terminal to get the crate or slide the crate out of the delivery truck into the back of the pickup. This should be fairly easy. Now you can slide the crate out of the back of the pickup until it balances. Pivot the end of the crate down to the ground and start sliding it farther back from the truck until most of it is clear. Then you can slide the other end down a some kind of ramp attached to the truck. Make sure the ramp is anchored some how so it can't slide off the truck. You might be able to do this from the back of the delivery truck, but they are usually higher off the ground. Once it's on the ground, you can either drag it to where you want it or open it up and unpack it. On Mar 15, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Tom Lutz wrote: > How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told > by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the > crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone > have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Continental Engines From: "n85ae" I have one in my Kitfox, and have worked on it quite a bit myself. It's not an O-200 derivative. But rather their 6 cylinder with two chopped off. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100767#100767 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds From: japhillipsga@aol.com Juan, cruise at 2700 rpm is 138 mph. I have had it somewhat faster as the rpms go up. EGTs are unbalanced as I made significant mods to the left side cooling ducts and all that extra cool air for the CHTs reduces the left side EGT prob attached to the left side exhaust pipe at cruise. Bill -----Original Message----- From: amyvega2005@earthlink.net Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds bill, how is the plane flying, what cruise speeds are you getting, EGT and RPMs? Juan 601/3300 -----Original Message----- >From: japhillipsga@aol.com >Sent: Mar 15, 2007 12:12 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds > >Dear Thread Friends, can anybody provide data on your XL speeds so I can compare with my info ? Need to be equipped with a Jab 3300 with standard FWF Sensenich prop and old style wheel pants. What is best glide speed without and with flaps ? Best climb speed ? Hope to hear back from several of you fine folks, best regards, Bill of Georgia >N505WP >601XL-3300 106 Hrs > > >-----Original Message----- >From: planejim@bellsouth.net >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 2:35 PM >Subject: Zenith-List: Oshkosh Area Zenith Builders/Owners > > > >List, > >Not a technical item. I would appreciate Zenith Builders/Owners in the Oshkosh Wisc. area to contact me directly at planejim@bellsouth.net I have a personal favor to ask of you. The first names of the two gentlemen I can remember Al and Ken; those who I have met at AirVenture. Thanks in advance > >do not archive > >Jim Hoak 601HD - 912UL - 540 hours. > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Continental Engines From: "n85ae" Oops, almost forgot. I am pretty sure the O-200 mount will work. There's a bunch of images of IO-240's on my website, at: http://www.aselia.com/io240b.html also some manuals in pdf http://www.aselia.com/io240docs/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100770#100770 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Newbie building CH701-Corrosion/Gotchas From: "n85ae" Cortec works great, just thin it to the consistency of 2% milk with denatured alchohol, or 50/50 denatured alchohol/distilled water. Don't let anybody fool you into using it at full goop consistency it's not designed like that. I have heard of builders using in thick form, but this is not correct according to the manufacturer. If it is on exposed metal, it needs to be topcoated as well. It is also NOT fuelproof, I dip tested some in Avgas, and it dissolves it. >From Cortec: Cortec Spec- VpCI-373 is applied at an extremely thin thickness of 0.5-1.0 mil (12.5-25 microns) DFT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100772#100772 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "NamesChangedTo..." I'm hearing a lot more of cursing the darkness than lighting of candles. If you don't like the documentation, do something about it. Since you know what documentation should be, contact Zenith and offer to rewrite their manuals. If you agree to take payment in Zenith parts, you could even profit from it. I'm sorry if this offends, but complaning to people who can't fix your problem is a waste of everyones time. Spit or get off the spitoon, NamesChangedToProtectTheInnocent Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100774#100774 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "n85ae" I have done lots of technical writing, if you represent Zenith send me an offline email, and I am sure we can negotiate a reasonable rate for rewriting the complete CH801 documentation. :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100776#100776 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Taking delivery of 701 From: "n85ae" U-Haul truck, get one for a day. Cram the crate in it at the dock. Take it to wherever you want the kit. And disassemble/unload it in the truck. That's how I've done it (twice). Total time about 9 am, to 1 pm to get the truck pick up the crate AND unload it by myself. http://www.aselia.com/ch801/img1376.jpg Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100778#100778 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:48 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Tom, One way to get it off of the truck is to tie a rope to the box and tell the driver to just slowly drive out from under it. Then unpack it right where it lands and take the parts into your garage. This is a good time to find out how many of your friends or EAA chapter members are really your friends. Tracy Stone ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 Harker Heights, Tx ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Lutz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:49 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Sorry, I don't mean to argue with you but it still appears to be correct. If this is the left wing flaperon and you are looking at it upside down the inboard portion will be 20 mm lower than the outboard portion. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:43 PM PST US From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Large 701 box Zed, I sure like that high explosive method! Got mine inside using pipes underneath, hooked a Susuki 500 ATV on the front, no problem, those were the days, now she's ready to fly... Your sense of humour is always amazing! All the best Dirk. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zed Smith" Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:36 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Large 701 box > > do not archive > > This subject came up previously. Several methods were suggested; most > involved the liberal use of gravity. > > WD-40 was on the list, along with free beer for strong-back neighbors, > un-packing the box on your truck, engaging the services of a wrecker > service (hoist), and some mention of high explosives. > > Seriously, if the freight company has a delivery truck with a powered lift > gate, that's the easy way. > > If you take a flat trailer to the freight docks they may not be able to > load from the side because of rails on the trailer.....fork lift > limitations. Then you'll still have to get it off the trailer. > > A neighbor recently took delivery of a large crate via the lift gate > method. He put two automotive mechanic creepers under it and rolled the > entire thing into his shop (concrete driveway). > At least that method got it inside where he could deal with unpacking at > his leisure. > > Regards, and good luck! > > Zed/etc > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "rickpitcher" [quote="n85ae"]With regards to the builders comments, about accepting the manuals as-is for a hobby we love. So it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry such as aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "mediocre"? [end quote] If by "mediocre" you mean average or moderate, then Yes, I'd say it is OK. I built an Avid Flyer several years ago, the documentation and drawings had FAR less information than the ZAC drawings that I used when I scratch build a 601HD. Every bit of data that I needed was on the blueprints. You might have to extrapolate some of the numbers from other references, but that's part of the challenge of building your own airplane. Always go by the blueprint. The photos and builder's manuals should be considered to be a guide to help explain (or confuse) the process. Just my $0.02 Rick Pitcher airplane builder :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100800#100800 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 From: japhillipsga@aol.com Tom, all I would add to Tracy's fine recommendation is get a couple old mattresses to lay on the ground where the box falls. That way most of the precision pre punched and expensive, soft, malleable parts and pieces will still fit together, or nearly fit together. I'm just trying to help. Having built a XL a couple years ago and about a third through an RV-8a I just have to say it "Tom, if you can't get a big box off the back of a truck, you may not be able to build an airplane." Now I have said what everybody on this thread was probably thinking. Seriously, I also highly recommend you join an EAA chapter, find some experienced builders and fixers and get them to counsel and help you on this project. Best regards, Bill of Georgia do not archive -----Original Message----- From: rstone4@hot.rr.com Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Tom, One way to get it off of the truck is to tie a rope to the box and tell the driver to just slowly drive out from under it. Then unpack it right where it lands and take the parts into your garage. This is a good time to find out how many of your friends or EAA chapter members are really your friends. Tracy Stone ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 Harker Heights, Tx ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Lutz Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL fuel tank baffles From: "ashontz" Anyone think these are necessary? The plans don't call for it, but I've noticed in the NTSB accident reports that there were a fair number of accidents during approach where the plane stalled and crashed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was due to the plane possibly banking further than expected with half full tanks and helping tip the plane into a brief unexpected more drastic bank and then the ensuing panic. Anyone flying notice this tendency? Seems to me baffles are the way to go even though they're not specified. 80lbs of fuel (half tanks) in a 900lb plane (one passenger) sloshing over a few feet out on the wings would seem like it would be noticeable, especially at low airspeed. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100813#100813 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "n85ae" Well I've built two now, and I don't think it's ok to accept mediocrity for $20K. :) Here's why: I see two situations, and I think people support Kit companies because of the first (1), and they make the mistake of not realizing that case (2). is really the situation they are in. If that makes sense. 1). If I called my friend Chris, and said say can you send me enough parts to build the plane with, some instructions how to build it. Then as I progressed I'd go back and forth with him asking question about the build process. Likely he'd say, oops I forgot to mention I made a mistake, here, or there, etc. This is ok. We're airplane enthusiast working on a common fun thing. I can forgive that he made the mistakes, our relationship is not a professional one. 2). If I bought a Kit from a Corporation, which is a legal entity, doing business selling Chris's design for profit to customers. Then down the road I found an error. I could reasonably expect them to remedy the mistake AND correct the documentation. I would also have a reasonable expectation of a certain degree of quality. So for instance you buy a telephone from the phone company, and the 1 button hangs up the call, and the # button dials 1. But the manual says otherwise, should you just say - Gee, well that's ok, guess they made a mistake. I bet 99% of the people on this list would not do that for their telephone. So why would you do that for a Kit company? Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100816#100816 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cowl hinge wires (was XL Center console) From: "eddies" Hi Craig, I have not quite finished with this yet, but I'll take some photo's with the top of the cowl removed and the hinge pin in place so that you can see some more detail. Will post the photo's onto the website this evening. Eddie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100817#100817 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:19 PM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Have it shipped to a Yellow Freight dock near you, borrow a boat trailer and pick it up with that. They will not have any trouble loading it onto the trailer and most boats weight more than the crate you will be hauling so that won't be a problem and it will be easy to strap down. By the way, it only takes about an hour to unload, that's the fun part because it reminded me of Christmas when I was a kid. Clyde 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: japhillipsga@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:19 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Hi Tom My 601 kit was delivered 2 weeks ago in Zenith's very strong 12x4x3.5' crate. Because I live in the tulles, Yellow said there would be a $70 cordage(?) charge to deliver it to my home address. Fortunately, my neighbor, Mel, has a flat-bed trailer and a backhoe. We picked it up at the Yellow dock in Missoula, where they loaded it onto his trailer with a forklift. It had one hole in it from shipping, but I haven't found any internal damage yet. At my place, Mel plucked it off the trailer with straps and his back hoe bucket as shown in the attached photos. The guy is an artist with a backhoe--what more can I say. I couldn't recommend his method, but it worked for me. I had visions of a crumpled crate full of thousands of dollars worth of crumpled aluminum. I haven't calculated the compressive force on the 900 lbs crate, but it had to be a lot. He just drove the crate into the garage and set it down on two furniture dollies with 2x4x4's laid across to distribute the load. Using some great ideas offered by others on this list, I used the crate's plywood sides for the large shelf under my 4x12' table, and I used the top for my shelving. I haven't got the crate unloaded yet, but it sits just fine on the dollies with the top and sides off. Search the archives for lots more ideas on how to get the crate off a trailer or truck. Terry At 12:11 PM 3/15/2007 -0400, you wrote: >How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by >someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off >the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique >for doing this besides pushing really hard? > > Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT Just starting a 601 kit ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:19 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 How are things over at Hell's Gate these days? I've been away since leaving Great Falls in 1980. BTW, my 601XL crate had a hole in it too but likewise no internal damage. Dred ---- Terry Phillips wrote: > Hi Tom > > My 601 kit was delivered 2 weeks ago in Zenith's very strong 12x4x3.5' > crate. Because I live in the tulles, Yellow said there would be a $70 > cordage(?) charge to deliver it to my home address. Fortunately, my > neighbor, Mel, has a flat-bed trailer and a backhoe. We picked it up at the > Yellow dock in Missoula, where they loaded it onto his trailer with a > forklift. It had one hole in it from shipping, but I haven't found any > internal damage yet. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:51 PM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 XL Slow Flight Speeds Hi Bill, You can determine the desired numbers yourself rather easily, as follows. Get enough altitude, reduce engine rpm to elevated idle so that the engine is neither pulling nor being pushed, and gradually reduce airspeed while watching the rate-of-climb instrument. When you get the smallest rate of descent, you basically have the optimum glide speed. Do this twice, once with and once without flaps. There are two best climb speeds. One maximizes the altitude gained per minute; this speed is called Vy. The other one maximizes the altitude gained per nautical mile traveled forward; this is Vx. To get Vy, fly various various speeds until the rate-of-climb instrument shows the max value. To get Vx, again try various speeds until the altitude gained per nautical mile traveled is max. You get the latter distance with GPS. Typically Vx is max when you use optimum glide speed, so no measurement is actually needed once you have the optimum glide speed. One note of caution: The numbers vary significantly with payload. So you may to do this twice, once with pilot only and little fuel, and once near gross weight. That gives you two sets of numbers to work with. Generally, both Vx and Vy increase as payload increases. In a plane like the 601XL the increase is substantial since max payload is a large percentage of empty weight. A good good rule for cruise climb speed is Vx + 2(Vy-Vx). For example, if Vx = 60 kts and Vy = 70 kts, then a good cruise climb speed is 60 + 2(70-60) = 80 kts. BTW, these are roughly the numbers for my 601HDS with Rotax 912, using custom fairings for the wing roots, for payload near gross weight. I would guess similar results hold for you plane. Happy flying! Best wishes, Klaus Truemper -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:18 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Continental Engines Yes Ernie ,the mount will be the same .The 0240 Cont. is just an 0200 with 0360 cylinders bolted on and adds 40 more CI displacement.One good thing about Continental engines is that lots of parts fit different engines ,makes life better for Experimentals & not good for certified aircraft owners . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: ernie To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Continental Engines Hi list, Has anyone put a continental IO-240 in to their bird? I read some were out there that 240 uses a 0-200 case. It got me thinking that the 0-200 motor mount should work for it. Thanks Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:59 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL fuel tank baffles If you keep your turns coordinated, there will be no sloshing of fuel. The only time the fuel might slosh around much is if you suddenly put the plane into a slip. I have used fairly substantial slips on some of my landings and have not had any problem maintaining roll control. The 601 has a lot of roll authority. I have a single set of the standard 12 gallon tanks. I have never noticed any behavior that might be attributable to fuel sloshing. I think baffles would just add unnecessary weight and complexity. On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:33 PM, ashontz wrote: > > Anyone think these are necessary? The plans don't call for it, but > I've noticed in the NTSB accident reports that there were a fair > number of accidents during approach where the plane stalled and > crashed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was due to the plane > possibly banking further than expected with half full tanks and > helping tip the plane into a brief unexpected more drastic bank and > then the ensuing panic. Anyone flying notice this tendency? Seems > to me baffles are the way to go even though they're not specified. > 80lbs of fuel (half tanks) in a 900lb plane (one passenger) > sloshing over a few feet out on the wings would seem like it would > be noticeable, especially at low airspeed. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:12 PM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Taking delivery of 701 Just to show that there are lots of variations on a theme, I rented a U-Haul truck and parked it on the street near my house. Roadway delivered the box in a semi-trailer. The driver had a forklift inside the trailer which he used to push the box out of his trailer into the U-haul truck. They were almost the same height off the ground. He was gone 5 minutes later. I unloaded the box in the U-haul truck inventorying the contents as I went. I carried it piece by piece into my house. I don't have a garage. I was even able to lock up the truck when lunchtime came to have a proper meal! It rained a little but I didn't care because nothing got wet. U-haul makes their money on mileage. I put 7 miles on the truck! Jeff Davidson do not archive ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:23 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles From: "ashontz" Food for thought. How do you like the 2 12 gallon tanks? I kicked around the idea of the dual tanks in each wing for a total of 4 tanks. bryanmmartin wrote: > If you keep your turns coordinated, there will be no sloshing of > fuel. The only time the fuel might slosh around much is if you > suddenly put the plane into a slip. I have used fairly substantial > slips on some of my landings and have not had any problem maintaining > roll control. The 601 has a lot of roll authority. I have a single > set of the standard 12 gallon tanks. I have never noticed any > behavior that might be attributable to fuel sloshing. I think baffles > would just add unnecessary weight and complexity. > > > On Mar 15, 2007, at 4:33 PM, ashontz wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone think these are necessary? The plans don't call for it, but > > I've noticed in the NTSB accident reports that there were a fair > > number of accidents during approach where the plane stalled and > > crashed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was due to the plane > > possibly banking further than expected with half full tanks and > > helping tip the plane into a brief unexpected more drastic bank and > > then the ensuing panic. Anyone flying notice this tendency? Seems > > to me baffles are the way to go even though they're not specified. > > 80lbs of fuel (half tanks) in a 900lb plane (one passenger) > > sloshing over a few feet out on the wings would seem like it would > > be noticeable, especially at low airspeed. > > > > > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100838#100838 ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:13 PM PST US From: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Another option: Slowly winch the crate from the carriers trailer or loading dock onto the deck of a roll-back tow truck, back that up to your garage (shed, hanger, etc.), tilt the deck, and gracefully slide the crate to the ground. Todd Henning West Bend, WI ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:07 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles I have over four hours endurance with reserve now. After four hours, it's time to land and take a short break to streach my legs anyway. With 48 gallons, I wouldn't even be able to carry a passenger as my plane is a bit on the heavy side. Of course you could always keep them empty until you need the range. I believe the standard kits now come with 16 gallon tanks for a total of 32. That's probably the way I'd go if I were building it now. > > Food for thought. > > How do you like the 2 12 gallon tanks? I kicked around the idea of > the dual tanks in each wing for a total of 4 tanks. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:59 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Bill of Georgia, The advice about joining the EAA and picking the brains of the local chapter members who have built an all metal airplane is the best advice yet. I just assumed everyone building an airplane was a member of EAA but I guess there some builders who are not. Tracy Stone do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: japhillipsga@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Tom, all I would add to Tracy's fine recommendation is get a couple old mattresses to lay on the ground where the box falls. That way most of the precision pre punched and expensive, soft, malleable parts and pieces will still fit together, or nearly fit together. I'm just trying to help. Having built a XL a couple years ago and about a third through an RV-8a I just have to say it "Tom, if you can't get a big box off the back of a truck, you may not be able to build an airplane." Now I have said what everybody on this thread was probably thinking. Seriously, I also highly recommend you join an EAA chapter, find some experienced builders and fixers and get them to counsel and help you on this project. Best regards, Bill of Georgia do not archive -----Original Message----- From: rstone4@hot.rr.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Tom, One way to get it off of the truck is to tie a rope to the box and tell the driver to just slowly drive out from under it. Then unpack it right where it lands and take the parts into your garage. This is a good time to find out how many of your friends or EAA chapter members are really your friends. Tracy Stone ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 Harker Heights, Tx ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Lutz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:11 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:47 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Strapping the Stab Lister- Sorry, it's been so long I lost your name. You probably have a twist on the axis of the spar. In other words, one tip is higher than the other. Think about it and check it out. You can probably get out with removing the rivets in the bottom skin and re-aligning, then going from A4 to A5 as necessary. No big deal if you fix it now. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair >> What am I misssing here? > > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:29 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith documentation All- Building seems to be a love/hate relationship with the kit provider. >From builders of other kits who looked at my project, I can conclude that the construction information provided by Zenith is perhaps a little better than the rest. Kit quality is another story. Zenith response in my case has been apathetic, if not flat out pathetic. Let's see if this e-mail gets through on the list. It will, sent to individual listers regardless. 1. Two weeks into my project I found that I'd wasted 4 standard L angles due to conflicting instuructions. Never got a response. 2. The nose skins of my outboard wings wouldn't line up as supplied by the factory. Totally tore everything apart and built replacements from plans and everything worked. Turned out my spar was drilled wrong. No response from Zenith. 3. Pointed out to Nick that the dimensions for the ailerons didn't work. Built my own to correctly calculated dimensions and sent the result to Nick. Response was, "Hmm". No follow up. 4. Center wing spar was incorrectly drilled. Sent question to Mark from CANZAC who agreed with my fix.Three weeks later, got a response from Mexico saying it was OK. I've been locked out of a number of services on the Zenith website for years, despite continued assurances I was still connected. Still am. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:31 PM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith documentation > So much for kits, glad I am scratch building--- > Do not archive.. --- Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > Building seems to be a love/hate relationship > with the kit provider. >From builders of other kits > who looked at my project, I can conclude that the > construction information provided by Zenith is > perhaps a little better than the rest. Kit quality > is another story. > Zenith response in my case has been apathetic, > if not flat out pathetic. Let's see if this e-mail > gets through on the list. It will, sent to > individual listers regardless. > 1. Two weeks into my project I found that I'd > wasted 4 standard L angles due to conflicting > instuructions. Never got a response. > 2. The nose skins of my outboard wings wouldn't > line up as supplied by the factory. Totally tore > everything apart and built replacements from plans > and everything worked. Turned out my spar was > drilled wrong. No response from Zenith. > 3. Pointed out to Nick that the dimensions for > the ailerons didn't work. Built my own to correctly > calculated dimensions and sent the result to Nick. > Response was, "Hmm". No follow up. > 4. Center wing spar was incorrectly drilled. > Sent question to Mark from CANZAC who agreed with my > fix.Three weeks later, got a response from Mexico > saying it was OK. > I've been locked out of a number of services on > the Zenith website for years, despite continued > assurances I was still connected. > Still am. > > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:11 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation There will be speedbumps during the building process. Every time I can a cross a hiccup in the manual I called Zenith. Nick or Roger was quick to straighten out any and all issues to my satifaction. In my whole plane I only killed one part, thats the heavy walled U channel thats at the re ar of the cabin door opening. I trimmed the angles backwards, boy did I feel stupid. !!! I called the following Monday and Shirley sold me a new one. They shipped it out that same day and it was here in Wyoming on We ds. In all my life Zenith Aircraft has been the "BEST" company I have ev er done business with. YMMV. I LOVE my 801. !!!!!!!!!!!! do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "rickpitcher" wrote: [quote="n85ae"]With regards to the builders comments, about accepting the manuals as-is for a hobby we love. So it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry suc h as aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "m ediocre"? [end quote] ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

There will be speedbumps during the building process. Every tim e I can across a hiccup in the manual I called Zenith. Nick or Roger was quick to straighten out any and all issues to my satifaction. In my who le plane I only killed one part, thats the heavy walled U channel thats at the rear of the cabin door opening. I trimmed the angles backwards, b oy did I feel stupid. !!! I called the following Monday and Shirley sold me a new one. They shipped it out that same day and it was here in Wyom ing on Weds. In all my life Zenith Aircraft has been the "BEST" com pany I have ever done business with.  YMMV.

I LOVE my 801. !!!!!!!!!!!!

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- "rickpitcher" <zodie@adelphia.net> w rote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by:  "rickpitcher" <zodie@adelphia.net>

[quote="n85ae"]Wi th regards to the builders comments, about  accepting the manuals
as-is for a hobb y we love.

So it is OK, to spe nd on the order of $20K for a ki t, in an industry such as aviation, a nd be accepting of manuals which are  at absolute best "mediocre"? 
[end quote]
________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:46 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Zenith-List: Brake Cylinders Hello group ,I am in the need for two brake cylinders .If anyone has a couple for sale please contact me at wjonesbrazoriainet.com . Thanks DO NOT ARCHIVE Wade Jones 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "rickpitcher" n85ae wrote: > Well I've built two now, and I don't think it's ok to accept mediocrity > for $20K. :) > Hehe... OK Jeff mediocrity IS a bad choice of words. Adequate might be better. BUT... to put things into perspective: we're talking about a 4-place kit plane for ~$20K. I've heard that Van's provides a lot more documentation for their 4-place kit plane, but it costs closer to $40K. I'd rather pay $20K for a superior design with adequate documentation than $40K for a superior design with superior documentation... but that's just MY preference. Spend your money as you see fit of course. BTW, I noticed that NYTerminate has posted the same picture saying that the guide IS correct, maybe you misread it. ?? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100868#100868 ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles From: "Tim Juhl" Zenith provides 15 gallon tanks as a $490 upgrade. My 182 (which was indeed a heavier airplane) carried 240 pounds of fuel per side when full. I never noticed any effects from fuel sloshing. I did notice the need to adjust aileron trim if the fuel amounts in the tanks differed significantly. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100874#100874 ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jury struts full of water From: "Tim Juhl" Are the struts steel or aluminum? If steel it might be an idea to pour some linseed oil, tubeseal or other anti-corrosion material into them and slosh it around. Pour out the excess. Those of us who fly old airplanes have been doing that for years. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100876#100876 ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:58 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles From: "ashontz" I'm building from plans, be interesting to see what the changes are,. Probably just movement of a nose rib. bryanmmartin wrote: > I have over four hours endurance with reserve now. After four hours, > it's time to land and take a short break to streach my legs anyway. > With 48 gallons, I wouldn't even be able to carry a passenger as my > plane is a bit on the heavy side. Of course you could always keep > them empty until you need the range. I believe the standard kits now > come with 16 gallon tanks for a total of 32. That's probably the way > I'd go if I were building it now. > > > > > > > > Food for thought. > > > > How do you like the 2 12 gallon tanks? I kicked around the idea of > > the dual tanks in each wing for a total of 4 tanks. > > > > > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100880#100880 ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "n85ae" NYTerminate - The image you posted is correct, but that's not the one I was talking about. Look at page 12 of flaperon doc 2 of 3. Look at the first image, splice plates up (it's wrong). Look at the second image with the blocks under it, and the note below saying the blocks are under the inboard section. OK you said it looked right. Ok imagine flipping that part to rightside up. OK - Now you will realize you have a inboard flaperon deflected 20mm up - OOPS. AND the splice plate is not in agreement with the first image. Look at that page again you will see what I mean. They forgot to ship my box of clairvoyance with the kit, so I'm slightly handicapped, so maybe I think that might be the problem. :) Regards Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100881#100881 ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:51 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Taking delivery of 701 This worked well for me _http://www.701builder.com/delivery1.htm_ (http://www.701builder.com/delivery1.htm) Brian ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:49 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation From: "n85ae" Ben - So did you ever notice any documentation issues that Zenith has? If so did you get them to update the manuals, so that when I build mine I don't have the same problems? :) How bout that flaperon issue I mentioned? Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100892#100892 ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:58 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles From: "Tim Juhl" To install the 15 gallon tanks you move NR 4 outboard and have to cut off the portruding "L" for the original location of NR 4. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100897#100897 ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:04 PM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation I have held off on commenting on this because didn't want to complain... but, I agree that the manual is less than good - barely acceptable given that in this day and age the problems could be corrected in minutes. I am responding to this post in particular because I have heard through the grapevine that Zenith was given this very offer by a builder who was qualified to create a top-notch manual and declined. I don't think it was over compensation. As for simply complaining, people who monitor this list in order to decide what to build should certainly get to know what they are getting in to. Michael in NH do not archive On 3/15/07, NamesChangedTo... wrote: > > > I'm hearing a lot more of cursing the darkness than lighting of candles. > > If you don't like the documentation, do something about it. Since you > know what documentation should be, contact Zenith and offer to rewrite their > manuals. If you agree to take payment in Zenith parts, you could even > profit from it. > > I'm sorry if this offends, but complaning to people who can't fix your > problem is a waste of everyones time. > > Spit or get off the spitoon, > NamesChangedToProtectTheInnocent > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100774#100774 > > ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:55 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation Rick, Just so everyone understands, The 801 does not have drawings like the 601 and 701. They are basically just assembly photos and assembly drawings. The 801 does not have drawings to scratch build, which the 601 and 701 have. This is a big drawback when trying to figure out parts and assemblies and extrapolating information. But getting back to the subject, the Zenith dwgs aren't that bad compared to others. Bob Spudis In a message dated 3/15/2007 3:56:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, zodie@adelphia.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "rickpitcher" [quote="n85ae"]With regards to the builders comments, about accepting the manuals as-is for a hobby we love. So it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry such as aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "mediocre"? [end quote] If by "mediocre" you mean average or moderate, then Yes, I'd say it is OK. I built an Avid Flyer several years ago, the documentation and drawings had FAR less information than the ZAC drawings that I used when I scratch build a 601HD. Every bit of data that I needed was on the blueprints. You might have to extrapolate some of the numbers from other references, but that's part of the challenge of building your own airplane. Always go by the blueprint. The photos and builder's manuals should be considered to be a guide to help explain (or confuse) the process. Just my $0.02 Rick Pitcher airplane builder :) ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:58 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL fuel tank baffles From: "ashontz" Thanks. What's the lengthwise dimension on the tank and the new position of the #4 rib? Tim Juhl wrote: > To install the 15 gallon tanks you move NR 4 outboard and have to cut off the portruding "L" for the original location of NR 4. > > Tim -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100909#100909 ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:58 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Hi Tom, Pushing really hard may not be enough for a crate that heavy. You can tie a rope around it and the other end to a tree. What I did was rent a U-Haul trailer and go to the Yellow Freight terminal to pick it up. They put the crate in the trailer for me and it was a simple matter for me to get it off with a rope and my little tractor (Kubota). This may not be your best choice either. Perhaps you can recruit a couple of really strong men and get some help. Good luck, Paul do not archive At 08:11 AM 3/15/2007, you wrote: >How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by >someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the >crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone >have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:52 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Can't take it any more......Get it off the trailer and onto the drive way. Take the 4' pieces of pipe ( 4 pieces 1" pipe works good) lift the box up & slide them under about 2'/3' apart. 3 go under & one is at the very front. Push until the back pipe rolls out, Pick it up & place it under front & push again. It helps if you put them in line with each other. You say ya got legs under the box....put 2X4's under the sides & nail to the legs, put the pipes under the legs. Have moved 10 ton compressors with this method. Bigger pipe & heavier than 2X4's. Up hill...rent a chain "come-a-long" from U-haul. KABONG Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Hi Tom, Pushing really hard may not be enough for a crate that heavy. You can tie a rope around it and the other end to a tree. What I did was rent a U-Haul trailer and go to the Yellow Freight terminal to pick it up. They put the crate in the trailer for me and it was a simple matter for me to get it off with a rope and my little tractor (Kubota). This may not be your best choice either. Perhaps you can recruit a couple of really strong men and get some help. Good luck, Paul do not archive At 08:11 AM 3/15/2007, you wrote: How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? Zenith-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:51 PM PST US From: "Dave Ruddiman" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 I used to build Pyramids that way. ----- Original Message ----- From: JOHN STARN To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Can't take it any more......Get it off the trailer and onto the drive way. Take the 4' pieces of pipe ( 4 pieces 1" pipe works good) lift the box up & slide them under about 2'/3' apart. 3 go under & one is at the very front. Push until the back pipe rolls out, Pick it up & place it under front & push again. It helps if you put them in line with each other. You say ya got legs under the box....put 2X4's under the sides & nail to the legs, put the pipes under the legs. Have moved 10 ton compressors with this method. Bigger pipe & heavier than 2X4's. Up hill...rent a chain "come-a-long" from U-haul. KABONG Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Hi Tom, Pushing really hard may not be enough for a crate that heavy. You can tie a rope around it and the other end to a tree. What I did was rent a U-Haul trailer and go to the Yellow Freight terminal to pick it up. They put the crate in the trailer for me and it was a simple matter for me to get it off with a rope and my little tractor (Kubota). This may not be your best choice either. Perhaps you can recruit a couple of really strong men and get some help. Good luck, Paul do not archive At 08:11 AM 3/15/2007, you wrote: How does one take delivery of a 12' long 850lb crate? I was told by someone at ZenithAir that I would be responsible for getting the crate off the truck if I have it delivered to my home. Does anyone have a technique for doing this besides pushing really hard? Zenith-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 76 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:18 PM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith's Annoying Documentation You should try to follow some telephone system manuals! Many are written by Asian engineers and translated by someone who speaks English as a second language. After 30-years of that, Zenith's manuals are great! :) Dave Thompson Do not archive ________________________________ Message 77 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:31 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 Yep. Used logs instead of "pipes". The more things change, the more more they stay the same. KABONG Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Ruddiman To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:02 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taking delivery of 701 I used to build Pyramids that way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.