---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/18/07: 52 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:15 AM - Not Aircraft Related - Deadly pet food recall (Tim Juhl) 2. 02:25 AM - Re: Fuel tank selector (Tim Juhl) 3. 04:41 AM - Re: Re: 601 NR#4 Problems (Edward Moody II) 4. 05:53 AM - Re: 601 NR#4 Problems (David Downey) 5. 05:56 AM - Re: Fuel tank selector (ashontz) 6. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: 601 NR#4 Problems (David Downey) 7. 06:07 AM - Re: Not Aircraft Related - Deadly pet food recall (ashontz) 8. 06:12 AM - Re: Construction log (ashontz) 9. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Construction log (Terry Phillips) 10. 07:33 AM - Re: Construction log (ashontz) 11. 08:09 AM - Re: Fuel tank selector (Gig Giacona) 12. 09:14 AM - Flap installition (wade jones) 13. 09:26 AM - Re: Fuel tank selector (Tim Juhl) 14. 10:16 AM - Re: XL Max Wind Landings (T. Graziano) 15. 10:23 AM - Re: XL Max Wind Landings (Al Young) 16. 10:38 AM - test (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 17. 11:10 AM - Re: Fuel tank selector (ashontz) 18. 11:55 AM - Hole pattern (Bill Naumuk) 19. 12:04 PM - Corrosion Protection on the Wiki (Tom Lutz) 20. 12:20 PM - Re: Hole pattern (Jim and Lucy) 21. 12:35 PM - Re: XL Max Wind Landings (David X) 22. 12:39 PM - Re: Hole pattern (Bill Naumuk) 23. 12:42 PM - Re: LRI gauge (Dave and Pam Fisher) 24. 12:46 PM - Re: Hole pattern (Bill Naumuk) 25. 12:50 PM - Re: Hole pattern (Bill Naumuk) 26. 01:04 PM - Re: Fuel tank selector (Gig Giacona) 27. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: XL Max Wind Landings (Paul Mulwitz) 28. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: XL Max Wind Landings (C Smith) 29. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: LRI gauge (Big Gee) 30. 02:10 PM - Easier leading edge skin (TxDave) 31. 02:46 PM - Re: LRI gauge (jetboy) 32. 02:46 PM - Re: Fuel tank selector (ashontz) 33. 03:11 PM - Re: Easier leading edge skin (ZodieRocket) 34. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: LRI gauge (Terry Phillips) 35. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tank selector (Bryan Martin) 36. 04:28 PM - Re: Fuel tank selector (Gig Giacona) 37. 04:34 PM - Re: XL Max Wind Landings (Gig Giacona) 38. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: LRI gauge (Big Gee) 39. 05:47 PM - Re: Easier leading edge skin (TxDave) 40. 05:48 PM - Wa'hoppen? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 41. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: LRI gauge (George Swinford) 42. 06:34 PM - Re: XL Max Wind Landings (Tim Juhl) 43. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: XL Max Wind Landings (Paul Mulwitz) 44. 06:36 PM - Re: Corrosion Protection on the Wiki (Tim Juhl) 45. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tank selector (David Downey) 46. 07:51 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tank selector (David Downey) 47. 07:54 PM - Re: Easier leading edge skin (David Downey) 48. 08:07 PM - Re: Re: XL Max Wind Landings (T. Graziano) 49. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tank selector (JOHN STARN) 50. 08:15 PM - Re: Re: Fuel tank selector (Craig Payne) 51. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: test (NYTerminat@aol.com) 52. 10:27 PM - Re: Easier leading edge skin (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Not Aircraft Related - Deadly pet food recall From: "Tim Juhl" Guys , I don't normally send out frantic warning emails but I came across this on a news server and I thought it bears repeating. You may have already heard but a company in Canada that apparently makes pet food under many different brands has issued a recall. Some dogs and cats eating the food have been sickened and even died. This article in the Seattle P.I. includes a link where you can check whether any food in your possession is on the recall list. I just thought you would want to know. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/1310AP_Pet_Food_Recall.html? source=mypi Tim Juhl -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101348#101348 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "Tim Juhl" The gascolator is placed at the lowest point of the fuel system, after the fuel selector - in fact, the bottom of the metal bowl protrudes out a hole in the bottom fuselage skin. It is designed to catch any water and has a fine screen to stop any large chunks of foreign material that may have gotten in your fuel. You normally drain the gascolator from a petcock located on the underside of the bowl. Since you are using a corvair engine, you'll probably take William Wynne's advice and follow the gascolator with two fuel pumps installed in series on the firewall. As I recall the Corvair does not have an engine driven fuel pump so one of the electrical ones must be on at all times. Many of the Corvair guys install a battery back up in case the primary electrical goes down. Corvair guys, jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101349#101349 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:12 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 NR#4 Problems I had forgotten about the other hole in the spar. I still can't "see it" in my mind's eye. I'll check that page of the drawings just to get my mind right. Do you have a rivet gun or someone close by who does? I think the mania for not leaving holes can be exaggerated at times but in the spar, I try to walk the line. In a low stress area, an unfilled hole is a lightening hole as long as there is adequate edge distance. When I have a useless hole drilled where I don't need it, I just pull a rivet in it or dimple it and set a solid countersunk one if something has to sit flush on it. That happened on the baggage deck because I didn't think far enough ahead of what I was doing. This list bailed me out when Tom Henderson offered to cut and bend me 12 extra standard L-angles for $2 apiece. I had run out due to waste and extra use where the plans did not demand it. Zenith wanted over $7 each for them despite the material costing less than $1.70 each. I sent Tom $35 to make sure he didn't come out behind on the shipping. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: TxDave To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 9:35 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 NR#4 Problems Hey Dred, There's a 95mm flanged lightening hole in the outboard end of the spar web. There is another in the tip extension. Page 6-W-3. Mark set me straight on the need to address an unfilled rivet hole in the spar web. Like I told him, this airplane building business is a continual learning process. Aren't we fortunate to have this forum? do not archive Dave Clay ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:53 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 NR#4 Problems when you talk to Zenith, make sure that you ask to speak to an engineer. Ask him if you could use a CherryMax of the appropriate size (assuming they make them that long). Somewhere in my past I recall that CherryMax rivets are considerd a structural equivalent to AD driven rivets - I do not know if that is a figment of my imagination or not! Edward Moody II wrote: As long as you have already drilled out the rivets, check to see if you can re-install the angle of the aft side of the spar. Do you have access to a pneumatic riveter or a squeezer with the correct inserts? If not wait until you have that done before blocking your access to both sides of the spar at that point. Even if you just set rivets back in the holes you will be fine. You'll make actual mistakes later on.... save the sweat for those episodes. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Crvsecretary@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:56 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 601 NR#4 Problems Hello Listers: I'm building the right wing of my 601XL using the 15 gal. fuel tanks and wing spars made for 12 gal. tanks. I never read in the prints or photo guide the instruction to cut the bracket for NR#4 so I drilled out the rivets and removed the bracket. What kind of trouble did I get myself into? Am I screwed? I appreciate all responses. As always, thank you. Tracy Smith Naugatuck, CT 601XL N458XL (reserved) --------------------------------- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Date: 3/16/2007 12:12 PM Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "ashontz" So the gascolator is equivalent to the fuel/water seperator I have on my boat. That's a big filter and water seperator that looks like an oil filter. Anyway to design it so that there's no tank selector, only an on/off and both tanks feed at all times? Thinking back to the fuel pumps on my boat. My 140 evinrude has a vacuum/mechanical pump, basically it's pumping as long as the engine is turning. I'm wondering if there's so way to adapt one of these as a redundant pump so that it's pumping as long as the engine is turning. Be interesting to try somehow. Tim Juhl wrote: > The gascolator is placed at the lowest point of the fuel system, after the fuel selector - in fact, the bottom of the metal bowl protrudes out a hole in the bottom fuselage skin. It is designed to catch any water and has a fine screen to stop any large chunks of foreign material that may have gotten in your fuel. You normally drain the gascolator from a petcock located on the underside of the bowl. > > Since you are using a corvair engine, you'll probably take William Wynne's advice and follow the gascolator with two fuel pumps installed in series on the firewall. As I recall the Corvair does not have an engine driven fuel pump so one of the electrical ones must be on at all times. Many of the Corvair guys install a battery back up in case the primary electrical goes down. Corvair guys, jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong. > > Tim -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101364#101364 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:39 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 NR#4 Problems shear in a "shear web" with properly engineered flanged lightening holes and shear transfer across a structure that is stiffness and buckling critical is completely different. I assumed that he drilled out the holes common to the spar caps and shear web... holes in the shear web would be best "filled" - with almost anything. Holes in the cap/web structure usually "must" be filled or it becomes a locally soft area to buckling loads. Gee whiz! I'm looking at that big 95mm lightening hole in my spar web and am wondering how a tiny little rivet hole is going to create a problem. But then again, I would listen to Mark Townsend. He certainly is more knowledgeable than most of us amateurs on this forum. do not archive Dave Clay 601XL scratch builder Temple, TX http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101267#101267 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Not Aircraft Related - Deadly pet food recall From: "ashontz" Kibbles and bits, and botulism bits. Thanks. I always feed my dogs dry food. The only wet stuff they get is off my plate. Tim Juhl wrote: > Guys , > I don't normally send out frantic warning emails but I came across > this on a news server and I thought it bears repeating. You may have > already heard but a company in Canada that apparently makes pet food > under many different brands has issued a recall. Some dogs and cats > eating the food have been sickened and even died. This article in > the Seattle P.I. includes a link where you can check whether any food > in your possession is on the recall list. I just thought you would want to know. > > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/1310AP_Pet_Food_Recall.html? > source=mypi > > Tim Juhl -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101368#101368 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Construction log From: "ashontz" Yeah, it would be nice if MyKitLog took more than 3 pictures per entry. It'd also be nice if it stored the full size picture so that you can zoom in on it. One other wish would be to be able to more easily print out all logs at one so that you can make a nice print out of all of it without sitting there, and/or some sort of export function to PDF that can be taken to Kinkos and printed out in a nice bound book. That would be sweet. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101370#101370 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:13 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Construction log Andy If you want to produce .pdf's, without paying Adobe's price for a full up copy of Adobe Acrobat, take a look at PDF Creator. (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/) It is an open source app that loads as a printer driver (like Adobe's PDF Writer). (Open source means that it is developed by volunteers for free distribution and the source code is freely available. There's lot's of other good stuff on SourceForge. Look around and you might find something else you need.) To produce a .pdf from any application, just select PDF Creator as your printer, fill in the file info pages, give it a file name, and viola, you'll have your .pdf. The .pdf's open up just fine with Adobe Reader. I use it all the time to "print" receipts or order summary sheets whenever I buy something on the Internet. I can find the info files on my PC much more reliably than I can find paper printouts, and I can cut and paste any information from the receipts into, e.g., Kitlog Pro. There are other free pdf writer clones available--this is just the one that I have used and can recommend. Terry At 06:12 AM 3/18/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Yeah, it would be nice if MyKitLog took more than 3 pictures per entry. >It'd also be nice if it stored the full size picture so that you can zoom >in on it. > >One other wish would be to be able to more easily print out all logs at >one so that you can make a nice print out of all of it without sitting >there, and/or some sort of export function to PDF that can be taken to >Kinkos and printed out in a nice bound book. That would be sweet. > >-------- >Andy Shontz >CH601XL - Corvair >www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT Just starting a 601 kit ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:08 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Construction log From: "ashontz" Cool. Thanks Terry Phillips wrote: > Andy > > If you want to produce .pdf's, without paying Adobe's price for a full up > copy of Adobe Acrobat, take a look at PDF Creator. > (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/) It is an open source app > that loads as a printer driver (like Adobe's PDF Writer). (Open source > means that it is developed by volunteers for free distribution and the > source code is freely available. There's lot's of other good stuff on > SourceForge. Look around and you might find something else you need.) > > To produce a .pdf from any application, just select PDF Creator as your > printer, fill in the file info pages, give it a file name, and viola, > you'll have your .pdf. The .pdf's open up just fine with Adobe Reader. > > I use it all the time to "print" receipts or order summary sheets whenever > I buy something on the Internet. I can find the info files on my PC much > more reliably than I can find paper printouts, and I can cut and paste any > information from the receipts into, e.g., Kitlog Pro. There are other free > pdf writer clones available--this is just the one that I have used and can > recommend. > > Terry > > > At 06:12 AM 3/18/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > > Yeah, it would be nice if MyKitLog took more than 3 pictures per entry. > > It'd also be nice if it stored the full size picture so that you can zoom > > in on it. > > > > One other wish would be to be able to more easily print out all logs at > > one so that you can make a nice print out of all of it without sitting > > there, and/or some sort of export function to PDF that can be taken to > > Kinkos and printed out in a nice bound book. That would be sweet. > > > > -------- > > Andy Shontz > > CH601XL - Corvair > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > Terry Phillips > ttp44~at~rkymtn.net > Corvallis MT > Just starting a 601 kit -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101386#101386 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "Gig Giacona" The Cessna style will NOT work in the 601XL. There is a very quick little experiment you can do at home to see what will happen if you have a fuel selector set to BOTH in the aircraft. 1. Take a glass of water and two straws. 2. Put one straw in the glass and hold the other beside the glass. 3. Put both straws in you mouth and suck. There are ways to create a fuel system that will use both tanks on a lw wing but they are complex and not close to worth the problems. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101391#101391 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:28 AM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Zenith-List: Flap installition Hello group ,I think before the day is over I can complete my flap mechanism inside the fuselage . I was making good progress until I reached fitting the baggage floor and the flap control system .All other parts of my plans built 601XL fuselage went together with not too many problems. Rear fuselage ,firewall ,cabin floor ,rudder pedals ,controls and tail fittings not too many problems .When I say not too many ,I am including lots of parts that I had to remake due to my fault in misreading the plans . Is this an area that other builders have spent lots of time on . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:08 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "Tim Juhl" The Cessna 172 does not have a "on-off" system. The 150 did but I can't think of any others. Also, the Cessnas are notorious for not draining fuel evenly from both tanks when in the "both" position. Older Cessnas with simple fuel systems like the XL were also susceptible to vapor lock and were placarded to "operate from single tank only above 5000 feet." If you check the archives I'm sure there has been discussion of engine driven fuel pumps on the Corvair. WW's website probably has some info too. I don't remember any being available. The gascolator is a simpler device than the separator you describe for your boat. They've been around a long time and are used on all types of engines. I even have one on my 1953 Ford tractor. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101408#101408 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:56 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: XL Max Wind Landings Bill, Glad you were able to make a great landing (airplane still flyable). Max X-wind I have experienced to date has been about 12 kts and no problem. One of the things I like about the Jab is it can pull you out of trouble easily . Curious as to where you got the info about 20 kts being the max X-wind for the XL. I've been wondering about what it is. Take care, Tony Graziano 601XL; N493TG; 218hrs ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:39 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Max Wind Landings Bill- Sounds like a d...fine pilot made a d... fine choice and saved two d... fine people from a d... mess. Congrats to you- Do Not Archive Al Young N-601AY ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 6:59 PM Subject: Zenith-List: XL Max Wind Landings Dear Thread Friends, I flew this morning. Had my bi-annual check ride. Probably could have picked a better day. Bone jarring bumps up to 4000 feet and a painful cross wind for landing. When we took off it was 14 gusting to 20 kts. It was obviously much worse an hour later upon return for landing. No flaps of course, and a bit fast for rudder control, just as I flared the x-wind gust tried real hard to flip the plane over. I had the wing way down, but nature took over and forced it up. Max aileron would not even level her and I was bending the stick and stretching cables. A burst of power and I got her up and going again, level then finally got the wing down into the wind just a little for touch down, still with max aileron, but landed on both mains. Not one and then the other as I was trying to do for the extreme winds. When the ZAC folks say 20 kt max cross wind, believe me that's real ! A tad more and I would have ended up in the pond. Happy flying and best regards, Bill of Georgia ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:53 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: test test Do Not Archive ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "ashontz" Thanks. I'm aware of that. At the same time, that's the exact same effect you'd get running on one tank if the sump became dry for some reason, like low on fuel and in an uncoordinated turn, slip to landing, etc. It's almost like you need a small header tank that both tanks feed and that wouldn't be subject to the problems of a near dry tank in a slip. Gig Giacona wrote: > The Cessna style will NOT work in the 601XL. There is a very quick little experiment you can do at home to see what will happen if you have a fuel selector set to BOTH in the aircraft. > > 1. Take a glass of water and two straws. > > 2. Put one straw in the glass and hold the other beside the glass. > > 3. Put both straws in you mouth and suck. > > There are ways to create a fuel system that will use both tanks on a lw wing but they are complex and not close to worth the problems. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101433#101433 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:01 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Hole pattern All HD/HDS People- Do your plans show the rivet hole pattern for gusset 6-F-12-2? There isn't a pattern on mine. Thanks. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:51 PM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Zenith-List: Corrosion Protection on the Wiki All, I've been searching the archives for corrosion protection information, and have found a lot of useful information. I urge you to take a look at the corrosion page I started on the wiki. http://www.matronics.com/wiki/index.php/Corrosion_Protection Add information to the page! Nice formatting is NOT necessary. Just put the info up there, and I or someone else will format it properly. Click on 'edit' at the top of the page and just start adding stuff, or click on 'discussion' to start a discussion about the page. Additional pages of interest: http://www.matronics.com/wiki/index.php/Zenith http://www.matronics.com/wiki/index.php/CH_701 -Tom ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:25 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole pattern I used this pattern from the cad drawings Here is a picture from the cad drawings of that part Jim Pollard Merlin Ont. At 02:52 PM 3/18/2007, you wrote: >All HD/HDS People- > Do your plans show the rivet hole pattern for gusset 6-F-12-2? > There isn't a pattern on mine. > Thanks. >Bill Naumuk >HDS Fuse/Corvair >Townville, Pa > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:37 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Max Wind Landings From: "David X" A predictable thing happens about 3:00PM every day in the Midwest ... rapid thunderstorm buildup caused from adiabatic heating. You'll get a lot of bumps and gusts, especially as you get closer to the ground on approach. I flew coast to coast and back in my XL last August, New Jersey to Oregon and back. That was about 35 hours of flying spread out over two weeks. Going East to West, I crossed the Rockies near Great Falls, and again on the way back just North of Idaho Springs. Needless to say, I gained some experience flying the XL in rough weather and gusts. Prior to the long trip, I was a little hesitant to fly the XL in anything but calm weather because it's a very light craft and has less than stellar roll command. The adrenalin flowed more than a few times in gusty situations. However, the long trip taught me some basics about stick and rudder that all pilots should learn. I no longer have issues flying the XL in rough or gusty situations. Nevertheless, I do stay within the design limits. I'm not an instructor, but I do have about 200 hours experience with the XL. Here is my advice, for what it's worth. First, to help prevent a low altitude stall after a gust, keep your airspeed 5 to 10 knots faster than on a normally approach. Next, get in the habit of using the rudder in conjunction with ailerons. The XL has strong, responsive yaw command (rudder). The fastest, safest way to right yourself is to "step on the high wing" ... or in other words, if the right wing is higher than the left due to a sudden gust, stepping on the right rudder in conjunction with using right stick will level the ship very quickly. Although, being rolled in the air by a strong gust can scare the crap out of you, don't over-react and be calm. You just need to practice using rudder in conjunction with ailerons and it will all become automatic after a while. Adding a little power in a gust will help maintain airspeed, but I emphasize "a little power". Depending on which way the wind rolled you, the left turning tendency of the engine at full power may actually make things worse. Lastly, a successful landing in windy conditions is not the end of things. Remember to keep ailerons and elevator in the proper positions to avoid being flipped over on the ground. Most important is to point the stick full forward when you taxi with a tail wind. The long tail on the XL provides excellent pitch command, but can also make an excellent lever for the wind to flip your plane on the ground. My two cents. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101454#101454 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:12 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole pattern Thanks, Jim. That's more than I have to work with. The inset on my print is totally blank. No real dimensions on yours, but I can figure it out. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim and Lucy" Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole pattern >I used this pattern from the cad drawings > > Here is a picture from the cad drawings of that part > > > Jim Pollard > Merlin Ont. > > > At 02:52 PM 3/18/2007, you wrote: >>All HD/HDS People- >> Do your plans show the rivet hole pattern for gusset 6-F-12-2? >> There isn't a pattern on mine. >> Thanks. >>Bill Naumuk >>HDS Fuse/Corvair >>Townville, Pa >> > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:19 PM PST US From: Dave and Pam Fisher Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI gauge OK guys, I give , if the LRI gauge is an air pressure instrument, what makes it different from an airspeed indicator?? Dave, 701 with A-80-8 Continental ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:33 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole pattern Thanks, Jim. I had to copy the drawing to Excel to print. No real dimensions, but a lot more than what I had to work with. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim and Lucy" Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole pattern >I used this pattern from the cad drawings > > Here is a picture from the cad drawings of that part > > > Jim Pollard > Merlin Ont. > > > At 02:52 PM 3/18/2007, you wrote: >>All HD/HDS People- >> Do your plans show the rivet hole pattern for gusset 6-F-12-2? >> There isn't a pattern on mine. >> Thanks. >>Bill Naumuk >>HDS Fuse/Corvair >>Townville, Pa >> > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:10 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hole pattern Thanks for your responses. Amazing that plans can differ that much! Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Hole pattern All HD/HDS People- Do your plans show the rivet hole pattern for gusset 6-F-12-2? There isn't a pattern on mine. Thanks. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "Gig Giacona" The original 601 did have a header tank but it isn't really needed and presents dangers of it's own. The problem you present while possible really shouldn't be an issue any more than just plain running out of gas while not a good thing is not a fuel system design issue. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101461#101461 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:58 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: XL Max Wind Landings Hi Tony, I don't know of any crosswind spec. for the XL, but rule-of-thumb for any airplane is 1/3 VSo. That would mean 20 Kts is a little high for the XL, but you know how those rules-of-thumb are . . . One little war story . . . Many years ago I had a crosswind that exceeded my rudder capability on a C-150 (152?) and a single runway airport. I figured out I could increase the rudder authority by adding some power to get the prop wash over the rudder. It worked really well, so I did a few more circuits and bumps and parked the plane. I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a few years after that. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 09:15 AM 3/18/2007, you wrote: >Bill, >Glad you were able to make a great landing (airplane still >flyable). Max X-wind I have experienced to date has been about 12 >kts and no problem. One of the things I like about the Jab is it >can pull you out of trouble easily . >Curious as to where you got the info about 20 kts being the max >X-wind for the XL. I've been wondering about what it is. >Take care, >Tony Graziano >601XL; N493TG; 218hrs --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:23 PM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: XL Max Wind Landings Holy CRAP! 8-0 do not archive _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 4:06 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: XL Max Wind Landings Hi Tony, I don't know of any crosswind spec. for the XL, but rule-of-thumb for any airplane is 1/3 VSo. That would mean 20 Kts is a little high for the XL, but you know how those rules-of-thumb are . . . One little war story . . . Many years ago I had a crosswind that exceeded my rudder capability on a C-150 (152?) and a single runway airport. I figured out I could increase the rudder authority by adding some power to get the prop wash over the rudder. It worked really well, so I did a few more circuits and bumps and parked the plane. I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a few years after that. Paul XL fuselage do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:15 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: LRI gauge Dave, I think you'll find the link below very informative. Fritz http://www.liftreserve.com/ Dave and Pam Fisher wrote: OK guys, I give , if the LRI gauge is an air pressure instrument, what makes it different from an airspeed indicator?? Dave, 701 with A-80-8 Continental --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Easier leading edge skin From: "TxDave" After I ruined my 12 foot leading edge skin (as I was closing it up), I wondered if there might be an easier way to make this beast. The 12' skin is awkward to work with and easy to mess up. If you need to get to your fuel tank to fix a problem, you have to remove the entire LE skin. Page 40 of ZAC's new Construction Standards manual gives instructions for making large skin pieces from multiple smaller pieces. After discussing this with Caleb at ZAC, I made a new LE skin in 3 pieces. There is a small inboard section that covers Nose ribs 1-3, a long outboard section that covers NR4 to wingtip, and a center section that overlaps at NR3 and 4 and covers the fuel tank. These 3 pieces were very easy to make compared to the single 12' skin. Now if I have to get to my fuel tank I'll have to remove just the center LE section. Seems to make sense to me. Any comments? Dave Clay Temple, TX 601 scratch builder http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101471#101471 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_002_773.jpg ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI gauge From: "jetboy" The LRI is not just ram air pressure like an ASI. Readings are derived from the difference in pressure between different surfaces in the airflow. The ports are either in the upper and lower wing surfaces or in a probe that is oriented in a similar way, and adjusted to respond at the correct angle of attack. There is some further description at the site that supplies them, or at http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm I have not got one on my 701 yet, and following the discussion threads I'm still not decided on whether the instruments should be further complicated. What interests me is the difference in readings with flap / without flap, as this aspect would need to be consistent with both configurations, TO and landing, to be a reliable indicator for me. After 170 hrs in the 701 I still find things unravel very fast at critical times and there is a lot of body language required in adjusting power / angle without time for looking at instruments or interpreting their meaning dependant on load / configuration. So I tend to favour the view, that for the 701, the seat of the pants will remain the primary indicator. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101479#101479 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "ashontz" Just looked at your website. Nice work! Nice workshop too. Gig Giacona wrote: > The original 601 did have a header tank but it isn't really needed and presents dangers of it's own. > > The problem you present while possible really shouldn't be an issue any more than just plain running out of gas while not a good thing is not a fuel system design issue. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101480#101480 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:06 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Easier leading edge skin http://www.ch601.org/resources/Nose%20Skin/bending_a_nose_skin.htm Check this out Dave Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TxDave Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 4:09 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Easier leading edge skin After I ruined my 12 foot leading edge skin (as I was closing it up), I wondered if there might be an easier way to make this beast. The 12' skin is awkward to work with and easy to mess up. If you need to get to your fuel tank to fix a problem, you have to remove the entire LE skin. Page 40 of ZAC's new Construction Standards manual gives instructions for making large skin pieces from multiple smaller pieces. After discussing this with Caleb at ZAC, I made a new LE skin in 3 pieces. There is a small inboard section that covers Nose ribs 1-3, a long outboard section that covers NR4 to wingtip, and a center section that overlaps at NR3 and 4 and covers the fuel tank. These 3 pieces were very easy to make compared to the single 12' skin. Now if I have to get to my fuel tank I'll have to remove just the center LE section. Seems to make sense to me. Any comments? Dave Clay Temple, TX 601 scratch builder http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101471#101471 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_002_773.jpg -- 3/17/2007 12:33 PM -- 3/17/2007 12:33 PM ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:20 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: LRI gauge I'll take a stab at this. Both the ASI and the LRI are differential pressure gages, i.e., they measure the difference in pressure between the two pressure taps on the gage. The difference between the ASI and the LRI is in the location of the pressure ports connected to the gage's pressure taps, and in the markings on the face of each gage. One ASI pressure tap is connected to the ram air port in the pitot (which attempts to point directly into the relative wind); the other tap is connected to the static air port which attempts to be normal to the relative wind. If the pitot is directly into the relative wind, and the static is normal to the relative wind, then there is a simple relationship between the difference in pressure and the air speed. Bernoulli's law applies here. When the pitot is not pointing into the relative wind (think slow flight with a high angle of attack) or the static port is not normal to the relative wind (think forward slip to a landing) then there will be an error in the indicated air speed. That's why your Cessna 150 POH has a table that relates indicated air speed to calibrated air speed. I think they design the ASI so that the error is in your favor--i.e., the indicated air speed suggests you are closer to a stall than you actually are. The markings on the face of the ASI gage just graphically calculate the air speed for the variation in the measured differential pressure between the pitot and static. The LRI pressure taps are connected to holes on two angled faces of the LRI probe. The pressure from these two ports is related to each of the port's angle with the relative wind. I.e., the closer a port is to directly into the relative wind, the greater the pressure the port will see. As the angle of the attack of the aircraft changes, the angles that each of these ports makes with the relative wind also changes. If it is all designed and adjusted properly, there should be a 1 to 1 relationship between the measured differential pressure and the angle of attack. So, you can mark the face of the LRI to indicate how close you are the critical angle of attack, i.e., the angle of attack at stall, typically about 18 degrees. 'Hope that helps. Terry At 01:01 PM 3/18/2007 -0700, you wrote: >OK guys, > > I give , if the LRI gauge is an air pressure instrument, what makes it > different from an airspeed indicator?? > > >Dave, 701 with A-80-8 Continental Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT Just starting a 601 kit ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:47 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector Feeding from both tanks simultaneously is safe to do in most high wing aircraft because the height of the tanks above the tee is provides enough head pressure to prevent air from entering the system if one tank goes empty before the other. This might not be the case for a low wing airplane, there is very little head pressure to keep air out of the line. It is also not a good idea to suck gasoline uphill. It's better to have the fuel pump at the low point of the system to ensure good gravity feed to the pump inlet then pump the fuel uphill. Drawing suction on a gasoline line will make it more likely that the fuel will vaporize in the line. Especially on a hot day at full throttle with the nose high (takeoff conditions). Fuel pumps don't pump vapor worth a damn. Do an archive search with the term "sucking on fuel" and you'll find a whole bunch of info. http://www.matronics.com/search > > So the gascolator is equivalent to the fuel/water seperator I have > on my boat. That's a big filter and water seperator that looks like > an oil filter. > > Anyway to design it so that there's no tank selector, only an on/ > off and both tanks feed at all times? > > Thinking back to the fuel pumps on my boat. My 140 evinrude has a > vacuum/mechanical pump, basically it's pumping as long as the > engine is turning. I'm wondering if there's so way to adapt one of > these as a redundant pump so that it's pumping as long as the > engine is turning. Be interesting to try somehow. > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector From: "Gig Giacona" Thanks, that's my hanger at KELD ashontz wrote: > Just looked at your website. Nice work! Nice workshop too. > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101497#101497 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Max Wind Landings From: "Gig Giacona" Paul, I'm quoting you but this is really aimed at the low time pilots. If something happens when you are flying that scares you to the point that you don't want to fly for a while the best bet is get with an instructor and fly ASAP. It hasn't happened to me but I've seen it happen to others. This is especially true during the post-solo period of training. Get back on the horse. p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: > > I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a few years after that. > > > Paul > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101500#101500 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:55 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: LRI gauge SEE BELOW FOR MESSAGE----- IT WAS BLANK ON THE FIRST ATTEMPT---- this is the second try. Big Gee wrote: Dave, I think you'll find the link below very informative. Fritz http://www.liftreserve.com/ Dave and Pam Fisher wrote: OK guys, I give , if the LRI gauge is an air pressure instrument, what makes it different from an airspeed indicator?? Dave, 701 with A-80-8 Continental --------------------------------- --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Easier leading edge skin From: "TxDave" I contemplated using the table as press method when I did my first LE skin. Problem was my table was too heavy and had too much junk stored underneath. Making the LE skin in 3 pieces required only the 58mm stop blocks you guys recommend and a 2"X6" board. I duct taped the edges together and pressed down to the blocks with the 2X6 and was done. The whole process, measuring, cutting, and bending all 3 pieces took less than one hour. It was so easy and quick. Not only will it be easier to get to my fuel tank in the future, it makes installation of the tank much easier as well. I can't see a down side with this technique. Dave Clay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101517#101517 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:25 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Wa'hoppen? I haven't received any Zenith posts for two days, now. Have I been kicked off the list or have i done something wrong? Jay in dallas ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:38 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: LRI gauge The air speed indicator measures the pressure difference between the free stream and the static source, which (ideally) is not affected by speed. This difference is, however, affected by the density of the air, so true airspeed varies from indicated airspeed with temperature and altitude. The LRI measures differential pressure between a pair of ports with different alignments to the free stream. This pressure varies with angle of attack, hence with varying lift coefficients. This difference does not vary with density, so the lift reserve or stall margin is accurately indicated at every temperature, altitude and aircraft weight, once the LRI is properly calibrated. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave and Pam Fisher" Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:01 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI gauge > > OK guys, > > I give , if the LRI gauge is an air pressure instrument, what makes it > different from an airspeed indicator?? > > > Dave, 701 with A-80-8 Continental > > > -- 3:34 PM > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Max Wind Landings From: "Tim Juhl" One thing I've noticed on low wing airplanes over the years (like Cherokee 140's) is that some will have scratches on the underside of the wingtip from being dragged on the ground in extreme crosswinds. For that reason (among others) I prefer not to use the classic wing low approach taught by so many instuctors. I prefer to use a crab & kick method, rather than fly a long, wing low approach. It is common for things to change in the last 20 feet above the runway so you might as well deal with it from a normal attitude. What I do is when I'm at flare altitude and ready to touch down I straighten the aircraft out with the rudder and lower the upwind wing enough to stop the drift until the wheels are planted. Sometimes a shot of power is a big help at this point. After touchdown, full aileron into the wing and enough forward pressure to keep the nose down.....raise flaps when you're able. I have used this method with high and low wing, tri-gear and taildraggers...all with great success. I always made a point of teaching both methods to my students and letting them choose what felt best for them. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101529#101529 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:52 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Max Wind Landings Hi Gig, Thanks for the great advice. The incident I related happened when I was training for a commercial license. I was flying out of a little airport with, at best, questionable instructors. There was nobody there I had a trusting relationship with. The main attraction of the place was it was ten miles from my workplace at the time - SAC HQ near Omaha Nebraska. I guess I decided after the wind challenge that I didn't really want to get my commercial license after all. I suppose I could have continued on, but I probably came out just as well having a long career in the computer industry rather than aviation. I had another brush with weather in Virginia about ten years later. I was flying with my wife in a C-172XP over the Shenandoah valley. According to the weather folks there was occasional moderate turbulence. In those days, the definition of moderate turbulence was you only lose complete control over your aircraft for brief periods of time before regaining control. I had a pack of cigarettes in my shirt pocket, and the cigarettes were jumping out of the pack and breaking on the ceiling of the cabin. I tried to maintain maneuvering speed but could barely control my speed. I don't know how I survived that flight, but when I managed to get over the hills into the Valley where Leesburg and Dulles airport are the turbulence stopped and the plane started flying nicely again. That incident generated another 2 year period when I stopped flying. Both of these incidents involved clear weather with situations I did not anticipate. In both cases I really wondered how I was going to survive the experience and it took its toll on me. For anyone lucky enough to have a trusted and talented instructor, your advice is wonderful. Any other support people would also be a great help in these kinds of incidents. I will relate one more small story and then shut up for a while. Just before I transferred to SAC HQ I did a Summer in Northern Texas at a tech school at Sheppard AFB. There was undergraduate pilot training conducted there and I flew aero club planes provided by the base. I had to use Base Operations to retrieve and return the airplane keys, and the UPT students also had to start and end their flights there. It seemed like there was always a young lieutenant with an ashen face nearly stumbling around Operations after one of his training flights. They never said anything, but you could tell from one look they thought they just had a close brush with death. I guess this is just another example of how scary flying can be at times. The good news is the guys you get to see and talk to are the ones who survived these incidents. While I think flying a plane is a very safe activity, there is no denying the fact that there are real dangers out there. I am always conscious of the dangers and I hope all airplane drivers keep safety as the first thing on their mind while flying. This is a special problem for home builders because the fact you can do a wonderful job building an airplane doesn't say anything about your pilot skills. I think there are lots of folks who build planes they really aren't qualified to fly. Then, since they own the plane there is nobody to keep them from flying into situations they really should avoid. Thanks again, Paul At 03:34 PM 3/18/2007, you wrote: > >Paul, I'm quoting you but this is really aimed at the low time pilots. > >If something happens when you are flying that scares you to the >point that you don't want to fly for a while the best bet is get >with an instructor and fly ASAP. > >It hasn't happened to me but I've seen it happen to others. This is >especially true during the post-solo period of training. > >Get back on the horse. > > >p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: > > > > I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a > few years after that. > > > > > > Paul > > > - ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corrosion Protection on the Wiki From: "Tim Juhl" Nice job tom....thanks for kicking it off. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101531#101531 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:57 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector I have been wondering what the consequences of a small header tank would be other than the fuel inside the cockpit in the even of a crash. Seems like a 2-3 gallon header tank would make those other issues very manageable? Thanks. I'm aware of that. At the same time, that's the exact same effect you'd get running on one tank if the sump became dry for some reason, like low on fuel and in an uncoordinated turn, slip to landing, etc. It's almost like you need a small header tank that both tanks feed and that wouldn't be subject to the problems of a near dry tank in a slip. Gig Giacona wrote: > The Cessna style will NOT work in the 601XL. There is a very quick little experiment you can do at home to see what will happen if you have a fuel selector set to BOTH in the aircraft. > > 1. Take a glass of water and two straws. > > 2. Put one straw in the glass and hold the other beside the glass. > > 3. Put both straws in you mouth and suck. > > There are ways to create a fuel system that will use both tanks on a lw wing but they are complex and not close to worth the problems. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101433#101433 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:24 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector since I have been considering building the tanks as ProSealed riveted structure, I had been wondering if baffle panels with the swinging one way valves like in all the bigger twins and Citations from Cessna use would be any advantage, They are not really fuel tight but they have a grossly differential leak rate across the baffle plates so the the fuel is coaxed to stay inboard at all times as it is depleted The original 601 did have a header tank but it isn't really needed and presents dangers of it's own. The problem you present while possible really shouldn't be an issue any more than just plain running out of gas while not a good thing is not a fuel system design issue. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101461#101461 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:18 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Easier leading edge skin Did Caleb say if the tank skin could be attached with nutplates and screws? After I ruined my 12 foot leading edge skin (as I was closing it up), I wondered if there might be an easier way to make this beast. The 12' skin is awkward to work with and easy to mess up. If you need to get to your fuel tank to fix a problem, you have to remove the entire LE skin. Page 40 of ZAC's new Construction Standards manual gives instructions for making large skin pieces from multiple smaller pieces. After discussing this with Caleb at ZAC, I made a new LE skin in 3 pieces. There is a small inboard section that covers Nose ribs 1-3, a long outboard section that covers NR4 to wingtip, and a center section that overlaps at NR3 and 4 and covers the fuel tank. These 3 pieces were very easy to make compared to the single 12' skin. Now if I have to get to my fuel tank I'll have to remove just the center LE section. Seems to make sense to me. Any comments? Dave Clay Temple, TX 601 scratch builder http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101471#101471 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_002_773.jpg Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:57 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: RE: XL Max Wind Landings Hi Paul, Your story reminds me of my Private Pilot Check ride many, many years ago in a C-150. The check pilot had me land in a 15 gusting to 25 kt direct crosswind. (there was a runway into the wind available). I had the rudder pedal to the floor, wings into the wind, no flaps and still could not hold runway alignment so I went into a crab and kicked it out just before touchdown. The wind was pushing me across the runway on rollout but I was still able to hold it with full aileron into the wind and some braking - max X-wind landing I ever made. I was spring loaded to go max power and get the heck out though. (I did pass the ride). I have landed my XL with both wing low approach and crab, but prefer a crab with the XL. I usually use full flaps for normal landings, but with gusts or a good X-wind I keep the flaps (and approach speed) up. I can land my XL fast (above stall) with no flaps, but with full flaps landing speeds must be kept low with no appreciable touch down vertical speed- or (on my XL) you WILL bounce it up, nose high, into the air ((AND YOU MUST either add power, or more preferably GO AROUND! ! - (The nose gear is tough though, you will land on the nose first on the second touchdown if you try to hold it up without adding power). Recommend do not press your luck)). I have flown my XL in some pretty gusty conditions (have even had my headset shaken off my head) and in my opinion the airplane handles ok for the conditions, but you must fly it and use the rudder to help keep wings level.. Keeping your seat belt tight is a must. All in all, I really enjoy flying the XL. Tony Re: RE: XL Max Wind Landings From: Paul Mulwitz (p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net) Date: Sun Mar 18 - 1:06 PM Hi Tony, I don't know of any crosswind spec. for the XL, but rule-of-thumb for any airplane is 1/3 VSo. That would mean 20 Kts is a little high for the XL, but you know how those rules-of-thumb are . . . One little war story . . . Many years ago I had a crosswind that exceeded my rudder capability on a C-150 (152?) and a single runway airport. I figured out I could increase the rudder authority by adding some power to get the prop wash over the rudder. It worked really well, so I did a few more circuits and bumps and parked the plane. I got scared so badly by the whole thing I stopped flying for a few years after that. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 09:15 AM 3/18/2007, you wrote: >Bill, >Glad you were able to make a great landing (airplane still >flyable). Max X-wind I have experienced to date has been about 12 >kts and no problem. One of the things I like about the Jab is it >can pull you out of trouble easily . >Curious as to where you got the info about 20 kts being the max >X-wind for the XL. I've been wondering about what it is. >Take care, >Tony Graziano >601XL; N493TG; 218hrs --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:33 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector It called an Ercoupe. BUT you still need to feed it with a pump. Lots of information in Coupe Capers the newsletter of EOC www.ercoupe.org. Van's is working on the tank of the new RV-12 located inside the cockpit too. www.vansaircraft.com KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: David Downey To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 7:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector I have been wondering what the consequences of a small header tank would be other than the fuel inside the cockpit in the even of a crash. Seems like a 2-3 gallon header tank would make those other issues very manageable? ashontz wrote: ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:21 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel tank selector One thing I don't like about a conventional header tank in a low wing plane is the fact that you need working electric fuel pumps to fill it from the wing tanks. A magneto-based engine will run with no electrical input but not those fuel pumps. So if you loose your electrical system you have to get to a safe landing sport with what is in your header tank. If it is a small header tank or the pumps need to be manually cycled to fill it then that may not be a lot of fuel. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:41 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: test not sure why but I have not been getting the lists for 2 days ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Easier leading edge skin From: "TxDave" I'm just going to rivet it in place. Hopefully, it won't need removal enough to warrant a more complex fastening method. do not archive Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101562#101562 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.