---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/21/07: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:21 AM - Vne for CH701 (Ken Arnold) 2. 05:44 AM - Re: Vne for CH701 (Frank Roskind) 3. 06:21 AM - Re: Instant Garage (Tim Juhl) 4. 06:38 AM - Gullwing door--folks only (Big Gee) 5. 06:59 AM - Re: Center Arm Rest (LarryMcFarland) 6. 08:28 AM - Re: Gullwing door--folks only (Aaron Gustafson) 7. 09:42 AM - Re: Gullwing door--folks only (Big Gee) 8. 09:46 AM - Re: 912 carb sync (ricklach) 9. 09:47 AM - Instant building space (Jim Norton) 10. 10:06 AM - Nicked my spar with drill bit (swater6) 11. 10:16 AM - Re: Gullwing door--folks only (R.P.) 12. 10:18 AM - 701 Belly-Pod (ricklach) 13. 10:34 AM - aluminum verses composite (Jim Norton) 14. 10:53 AM - Re: Nicked my spar with drill bit (Carlos Sa) 15. 10:55 AM - Re: Gullwing door--folks only (David Downey) 16. 11:04 AM - Re: aluminum verses composite (Craig Payne) 17. 11:15 AM - Re: aluminum verses composite (Aaron Gustafson) 18. 11:15 AM - Re: aluminum verses composite (Craig Payne) 19. 11:20 AM - LRI Probe (Ron Lalonde) 20. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Instant Garage (Tom Lutz) 21. 12:02 PM - Re: aluminum verses composite (ZodieRocket) 22. 12:14 PM - Re: 912 carb sync (Klaus Truemper) 23. 12:36 PM - Re: Nicked my spar with drill bit (David Downey) 24. 01:15 PM - Re: Instant Garage (Perry Delano) 25. 01:19 PM - Fw: aluminum verses composite (JOHN STARN) 26. 01:28 PM - Re: aluminum verses composite (C Smith) 27. 01:41 PM - Re: aluminum verses composite (John Bolding) 28. 01:50 PM - Apples vs. Oranges (Zed Smith) 29. 02:05 PM - Re: aluminum verses composite (raymondj) 30. 03:18 PM - Re: Nicked my spar with drill bit () 31. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: Making an LRI probe () 32. 04:00 PM - Re: LRI Probe (Ron Lendon) 33. 04:19 PM - Re: xxx Re: Re: Making an LRI probe (John Bolding) 34. 04:24 PM - Re: Re: Making an LRI probe (Big Gee) 35. 04:43 PM - Re: xxx Re: Re: Making an LRI probe (David Downey) 36. 05:13 PM - composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses (Jim Norton) 37. 06:03 PM - Re: Instant Garage (Tim Juhl) 38. 06:49 PM - Canopy latching (robert stone) 39. 07:22 PM - Re: Canopy latching (Bryan Martin) 40. 07:36 PM - Re: composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses (Noel Loveys) 41. 07:45 PM - Re: Canopy latching (robert stone) 42. 09:05 PM - Re: composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses (Matt Reeves) 43. 09:08 PM - Re: Re: Instant Garage (Matt Reeves) 44. 09:11 PM - Re: Canopy latching (Steve Hulland) 45. 09:15 PM - Re: Re: Instant Garage (Tom Lutz) 46. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: Instant Garage (Steve Hulland) 47. 09:50 PM - Re: Re: Making an LRI probe (ROBERT SCEPPA) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:35 AM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Zenith-List: Vne for CH701 Listers, I am trying to understand the "flutter" threshold for the 701. There are a few times when flying near 10K msl will provide better cruise performance and burn rate. However, the latest Kitplane magazine has an article that sounds a little scary. It seems the IAS Vne at 10K feet msl is reduced considerably. I have seen the formula suggesting you multiply the altitude units by 1.5 to get percent reduction. At 10K msl, 10 x 1.5= 15% reduction. If Vne at sea level is 110 mph then at 10K it would be 110 x 0.85 = 93.5 mph IAS. I would appreciate any comments clarifying this. Ken Arnold CH701 QB Kit about 75% complete ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:38 AM PST US From: "Frank Roskind" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vne for CH701 Flutter is related to true airspeed not indicated or calibrated, so it occurs at lower IAS when you get to higher altitudes. From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Zenith-List: Vne for CH701 Listers, I am trying to understand the "flutter" threshold for the 701. There are a few times when flying near 10K msl will provide better cruise performance and burn rate. However, the latest Kitplane magazine has an article that sounds a little scary. It seems the IAS Vne at 10K feet msl is reduced considerably. I have seen the formula suggesting you multiply the altitude units by 1.5 to get percent reduction. At 10K msl, 10 x 1.5= 15% reduction. If Vne at sea level is 110 mph then at 10K it would be 110 x 0.85 = 93.5 mph IAS. I would appreciate any comments clarifying this. Ken Arnold CH701 QB Kit about 75% complete _________________________________________________________________ Interest Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new payment ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Instant Garage From: "Tim Juhl" If you are going to put it on your own property you need to see if there would be any zoning issues. You might also want to consider a fabric covered shelter. We see a lot of these showing up on farms. Some of the structures made this way are huge and come with at least a 15 year guarantee on the fabric. If I ever decide to keep my XL at the airstrip by my house I've considered using a hangar made this way. Visit http://www.shelterlogic.com/ for some examples. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102057#102057 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:33 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Zenith-List: Gullwing door--folks only Gullwingers-- I would like to "talk" off site to any folks who have built their own gullwing door, canopy system for the 601 series aircraft. Please contact me, off site, as I do not want to start a "firestorm" on this site about "gullwing doors" etc. I have a my canopy framework all jigged up and ready for welding. I would like to discuss is, have any of you folks have run wiring etc. overhead (between the gullwing door hinges)? It seems to me a lot of the "plumbing" can go there. I plan on doing this, but would like to hear form those who have, "been there, done that". Fritz----- XL -- Corvair -- scratch builder --------------------------------- Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:54 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Center Arm Rest Yes Bill, The image provided was on the center section page of my site. Easy to miss.... Larry Bill Naumuk wrote: > > Larry- > Do you have a batch of pictures not on your site? I swear I've > never seen this one before! > I'd already resigned myself to installing the L angles, just wanted > HDSers on the list to beware of upcoming hassles. Figured the best way > to help people down the line was to identify a problem and get > everyone's input in one string. > The gent I spoke of a couple of weeks ago on list just bought an XL > kit. He lives about 1/2 hour away and is 70 years old. Showed up at my > place driving his Escalade but walked up to the front door wearing a > yellow rain slicker and Wellington boots. My kind of people. I'll > introduce you once he's "Settled in". > Thanks, as always. > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" > > To: > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 9:05 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Center Arm Rest > > >> >> >> Bill, >> I did have the angles in when the center section was complete, but it >> shouldn't be that difficult to do >> even after you've connected the tail. You might just have to stand >> in front of the center section to get it >> done, unless your floor is already in. (see link,) >> >> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/centerwing/centersection/full/wing-spars-to-center-sectio.gif >> >> >> Larry McFarland >> >> Bill Naumuk wrote: >>> All- >>> I was moving merrily along on the front fuse when I come to >>> steps 7 and 8 on FF-5. >>> "Cleco 6V12-4 to 6F16-1". No problem. "Cleco 6F16-1 to the L >>> ANGLES". Went back and checked, no mention of installing the armrest >>> L angles during c-section construction. No mention of their >>> installation anywhere! Checked out Larry Mac's and Jeff Small's >>> pictures and neither show the L angles installed at this stage of >>> the game. Not a show-stopper, but if I have to put them in now an >>> extra foot of height and arm length would be beneficial! >>> Thoughts? >>> do not archive (?) Bill Naumuk >>> HDS Fuse/Corvair >>> Townville, Pa >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:13 AM PST US From: "Aaron Gustafson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gullwing door--folks only Fritz There is no address for you on the post. Aaron agustafson@chartermi.net do not archive Gullwingers-- I would like to "talk" off site to any folks who have built their own gullwing door ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:16 AM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gullwing door--folks only HI Aaron, Thanks for the heads up, my "back channel" address should have shown up in the heading area. In case it didn't, reply to" taffy0687@yahoo.com. Have a nice day, Fritz Aaron Gustafson wrote: Fritz There is no address for you on the post. Aaron agustafson@chartermi.net do not archive Gullwingers-- I would like to "talk" off site to any folks who have built their own gullwing door --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 912 carb sync From: "ricklach" Hi Klaus, Your rod design looks very solid and dependable. But I have a question for you. Have you seen any issues with your rod set-up when the engine torques in the airframe. Like RPM changes. Looking forward to your comments. Rick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102102#102102 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:52 AM PST US From: Jim Norton Subject: Zenith-List: Instant building space Tom, I think that it is doable but here are some considerations that I would need to factor in if I were doing this... 1.) most containers are very long, but not very wide so that can make some aspects of construction more difficult. 2.) they normally do not have any electrical connections so I would want to put an electrical feed line, a sub-panel (distribution box) and grounding rods. remember this is a metal box and all electrical outlets need a little extra care in wiring (good luck if an electrical inspector happens by...) 3.) they have no windows - so no light even in the day and ventilation. Hot in summer, cold in winter, always stuffy. All these can be easily addressed but you need to factor in the added time and costs of these additions. 4.) probably the local zoning laws in Rockaway have size and offset restrictions regarding use and placement of the container, if a neighbor complains - its gone... 5.) access through the double doors at the end can be very frustrating, and I'm not sure one can open and close those doors from the inside without a bit of metal work. 6.) ground work to keep the container fairly level may involve some yard work, one may not want to plop a 20 foot long container on uneven soft wet ground. In Budd Lake, the neighbors and town officials would have fits if I tried to use a container as a (temporary) structure, but if I thought I could get away with it I would. An alternative would be to go over to 84 Lumber, they have pans for building storage sheds, I would build a 10 X 12 shed (probably the maximum without a permit to get started. when you need more space, build a 4 foot section in the middle and move the rear of the shed back. It won't draw as much attention. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:08 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Nicked my spar with drill bit From: "swater6" Before I send this one to Zenith, I thought I'd bounce it off the post. The one thing I've avoided during wing construction is any nicks on the main spar that would lead to a crack. Last night while drilling the small holes for nutplates for the finger screen access cover, I nicked the main main spar doubler with the bit. (I almost barfed) Standard procedure is to sand or file smooth. I sanded and it's completely smooth. But... this leaves a small concave section almost 1mm deep at the deepest point but blends out nicely and doesn't extend more than about 8mm from the top of the piece. You know the question. Would you rip your wing apart to drill out and replace the doubler or is this amount of material sanded off of no affect? -------- 601 XL kit Tail, control surfaces and 1 wing complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102111#102111 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:38 AM PST US From: "R.P." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gullwing door--folks only I'd like to see the gullwing setup. I was thinking about going that route when I built my Zodiac, but stayed with the flip-up canopy in the end. If you're reluctant to post the info here in fear of flames, please send pics to zodie@adelphia.net Thanks, Rick Pitcher Zodiac HD with flip-top http://www.lightflyers.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Big Gee" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:37 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Gullwing door--folks only > Gullwingers-- > I would like to "talk" off site to any folks who have built their own > gullwing door, canopy system for the 601 series aircraft. Please contact > me, off site, as I do not want to start a "firestorm" on this site about > "gullwing doors" etc. > > I have a my canopy framework all jigged up and ready for welding. I > would like to discuss is, have any of you folks have run wiring etc. > overhead (between the gullwing door hinges)? It seems to me a lot of the > "plumbing" can go there. I plan on doing this, but would like to hear > form those who have, "been there, done that". > > Fritz----- XL -- Corvair -- scratch builder > > > --------------------------------- > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7:52 AM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Belly-Pod From: "ricklach" I just got through looking at some videos of 701s on You Tube and saw a belly-pod on a 701 in the Amazon. Can anyone post some information on how to build one or where I can get one for my 701? Thanks Rick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102114#102114 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:48 AM PST US From: Jim Norton Subject: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite I am about to start the rudder for a scratch built 601XL (Corvair?). However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4 completed Vision homebuilt that was for sale. (The builder had died). This project is a composite plane and total estimated time for a scratch build is 3000 hours. I have not seen any estimates of how long a scratch build is for the 601. My question is this? Has anyone worked on both metal and composite? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? I realize this is a Zenith (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have decided that is the way to go. At 59, I suspect this will be the only plane I'll have. I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much experience in that area either. I would assess my building skills as well above average and have space and tools to build about anything. I would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their project. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:37 AM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nicked my spar with drill bit Number 1, you do need to talk to ZAC. Number 2, I did something similar on my stabilizer. I wrote to ZAC, and got an answer from Chris Heintz: he said to treat the spar as a propeller with a nick - just file it until smooth. So, I'd say you need not trash or even disassemble anything. But do contact ZAC and get their advice. Good luck Carlos CH601-HD, plans. On 21/03/07, swater6 wrote: > > > Before I send this one to Zenith, I thought I'd bounce it off the post. > The one thing I've avoided during wing construction is any nicks on the > main spar that would lead to a crack. Last night while drilling the small > holes for nutplates for the finger screen access cover, I nicked the main > main spar doubler with the bit. (I almost barfed) Standard procedure is to > sand or file smooth. I sanded and it's completely smooth. But... this > leaves a small concave section almost 1mm deep at the deepest point but > blends out nicely and doesn't extend more than about 8mm from the top of the > piece. > You know the question. Would you rip your wing apart to drill out and > replace the doubler or is this amount of material sanded off of no affect? > > -------- > 601 XL kit > Tail, control surfaces and 1 wing complete > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:20 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gullwing door--folks only please add my address to that particular off-line discussion as well: planecrazydld@yahoo.com Thanks! "R.P." wrote: I'd like to see the gullwing setup. I was thinking about going that route when I built my Zodiac, but stayed with the flip-up canopy in the end. If you're reluctant to post the info here in fear of flames, please send pics to zodie@adelphia.net Thanks, Rick Pitcher Zodiac HD with flip-top http://www.lightflyers.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Big Gee" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:37 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Gullwing door--folks only > Gullwingers-- > I would like to "talk" off site to any folks who have built their own > gullwing door, canopy system for the 601 series aircraft. Please contact > me, off site, as I do not want to start a "firestorm" on this site about > "gullwing doors" etc. > > I have a my canopy framework all jigged up and ready for welding. I > would like to discuss is, have any of you folks have run wiring etc. > overhead (between the gullwing door hinges)? It seems to me a lot of the > "plumbing" can go there. I plan on doing this, but would like to hear > form those who have, "been there, done that". > > Fritz----- XL -- Corvair -- scratch builder > > > --------------------------------- > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7:52 AM Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:36 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite Some of the down-sides to composite construction are the need for a temperature-controlled space to build in where fumes won't bother someone else. Also the skills take longer to acquire for a klutz like me. Composite planes look prettier but a well designed and built metal plane can be just as light. One side point to think about. The FWF package for the XL and a Corvair is well developed with the nose bowl and motor mount available. If you want to use a Corvair in the Vision you will need to do a lot of the development yourself (although I bet you could make William's nose bowl work on the Vision). I don't know the Vision's numbers but the Corvair may also not be suitable. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:08 AM PST US From: "Aaron Gustafson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite METAL work on it anywhere (no stink) few special tools health hazards: metal cuts fast planes or STOL clean the shop by sweeping up the cutoffs and rivet mandrels COMPOSITE temperature criticle shop more special tools health hazards: epoxy sensitivity, fiberglass cuts and slivers usually fast planes ie. long runways=hanger rent clean the shop by grinding the drips off the floor do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:09 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite BTW: you are really looking at two very different planes. The XL is an LSA while Vne on the Vision is 207 mph. The Vision is a new design with only a few flying while there are hundreds of XLs flying. You should decide what kind of builder and pilot you are and what "missions" you will be flying. *Then* choose a plane. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:14 AM PST US From: "Ron Lalonde" Subject: Zenith-List: LRI Probe Has anyone actually made a probe for an LRI ?? How do you drill the holes? Drilling the aluminum is a real pain. Not bad until you get deep. What type of drill is required? The local machine shops have given me quotes that make actually make buying the commercially available LRI cheaper!! Any source available to buy a probe maybe??? Thanks in Advance for your help Ron 601XL #6520 Working on wings (so the LRI is just a sideline...LOL) _________________________________________________________________ This March Break, Have An Outdoor Fun-For-All! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cidD6BDB4586E357F!147 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:55 AM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Instant Garage Those fabric shelters look like they could be a viable solution, except they have no floor...right? On 3/21/07, Tim Juhl wrote: > > > If you are going to put it on your own property you need to see if there > would be any zoning issues. You might also want to consider a fabric > covered shelter. We see a lot of these showing up on farms. Some of the > structures made this way are huge and come with at least a 15 year guarantee > on the fabric. If I ever decide to keep my XL at the airstrip by my house > I've considered using a hangar made this way. > > Visit http://www.shelterlogic.com/ for some examples. > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A > Working on wings > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102057#102057 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:37 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite Jim , there are many considerations for Aluminium over Composite. I'm only going to touch on three, the listers may be able to provide the several hundred or more other issues. Composite requires humidity and temperature control to be exact during the whole process; this can sometimes be a problematic situation. In an accident situation I have seen where a composite ,which I thought did not land particularly hard come apart totally and all shards of glass became daggers into the occupants. This should have easily been a walk away incident but ....well you get the picture, glass fibers in a situation can be deadly. My NUMBER 1 reason for not building a fiberglass plane is the itch factor, every night you go to bed scratching, I have woken up several mornings red and swollen from glass fibers, wife has also woken up in similar shape and she wasn't in the workshop. Precautions can be made to eliminate the issue, but in metal planes it is a non factor. The only thing I brought to bed in my metal plane was a completed Rudder ! Wife was not impressed ! You would think she would have expected the Stabilizer ! Nope it was couch time once again ! Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Norton Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite I am about to start the rudder for a scratch built 601XL (Corvair?). However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4 completed Vision homebuilt that was for sale. (The builder had died). This project is a composite plane and total estimated time for a scratch build is 3000 hours. I have not seen any estimates of how long a scratch build is for the 601. My question is this? Has anyone worked on both metal and composite? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? I realize this is a Zenith (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have decided that is the way to go. At 59, I suspect this will be the only plane I'll have. I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much experience in that area either. I would assess my building skills as well above average and have space and tools to build about anything. I would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their project. -- 3/21/2007 7:52 AM -- 3/21/2007 7:52 AM ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:53 PM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 912 carb sync Hi Rick, Joe Spencer sent an email with the same concern about synchronization via rods when the engine moves a abit. Here is the analysis of that aspect: Altogether, any engine movement is very small since the motor mounts are so stiff. But suppose the propeller pulls the engine foward a bit, or a power reduction has the engine move backward a bit. Then this effect occurs on both sides, and thus the throttle settings remain synchronized. The same conclusion applies if the engine rotates a bit on the longitudinal axis due to engine torque. It that case, both throttles are again affected the same way. In fact, we have never noticed any unbalanced behavior because of power setting or whatever else might make the engine move a bit. It would be different if, looking from the top down on the engine, the engine would rotated in the mount. But I cannot see why the engine or propeller forces would ever cause such a rotation. More important is the vibration that constantly shakes the rods. I was initially concerned that this would wear out the rod ends and thus lead to imprecise positions of the throttle. After more than 1000 hours, there is a tiny amount of play, of no concern so far. There is NO safety issue since a large washer is outside the rod end so that even a failure of the rod end cannot result in the rod disconnecting from the carburetor. My friend Mel Asberry, the expert builder, and I came up with the rod idea AFTER we had installed the cables. We never got them to work right and decided to go to rods. This has been an excellent choice. Once the carburetors are carefully synchronized, they stay that way and never need any adjustment. >From a safety standpoint I never liked the cable setup to begin with. If one cable disconnects, that side goes to full throttle due to the spring. Yet the other side stays at whatever setting you have, and the engine is extremely unbalanced in the power output of the cylinders. This has got to be extremely dangerous. The rods, with their positive control, completely avoid that problem. Happy Flying, Klaus Truemper -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:12 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nicked my spar with drill bit contact ZAC and make sure that you get a response in writing from an Engineer. It makes a great deal of difference upper cap, lower cap, point on span, depthin % of wall thickness, % of wall height affected, proximity to edge, etc., etc.... Carlos Sa wrote: Number 1, you do need to talk to ZAC. Number 2, I did something similar on my stabilizer. I wrote to ZAC, and got an answer from Chris Heintz: he said to treat the spar as a propeller with a nick - just file it until smooth. So, I'd say you need not trash or even disassemble anything. But do contact ZAC and get their advice. Good luck Carlos CH601-HD, plans. Before I send this one to Zenith, I thought I'd bounce it off the post. The one thing I've avoided during wing construction is any nicks on the main spar that would lead to a crack. Last night while drilling the small holes for nutplates for the finger screen access cover, I nicked the main main spar doubler with the bit. (I almost barfed) Standard procedure is to sand or file smooth. I sanded and it's completely smooth. But... this leaves a small concave section almost 1mm deep at the deepest point but blends out nicely and doesn't extend more than about 8mm from the top of the piece. You know the question. Would you rip your wing apart to drill out and replace the doubler or is this amount of material sanded off of no affect? -------- 601 XL kit Tail, control surfaces and 1 wing complete Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:47 PM PST US From: "Perry Delano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Instant Garage My company built semi mobile debarkers for the forest industry. We used 40 foot shipping containers with partition walls to form an MCC room, Hydraulic Power Unit Room and a small central workshop. Great idea, but not the best lawn ornament. Used ones are dirt cheap. Perry ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:02 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite Great post... (BUT I did add a few things) KABONG Do Not Archive HRII N561FS & Corvette driver > > > FROM: Zenith-List message posted by: "Aaron Gustafson" > > > METAL > work on it anywhere (no stink) > few special tools > health hazards: metal cuts & cleco cramps > fast planes or STOL > clean the shop by sweeping up the cutoffs and rivet mandrels (once a week > ??) > paint it any color > park it outside option > > > COMPOSITE > temperature critical shop > more special tools > health hazards: epoxy sensitivity, fiberglass cuts and slivers = ITCH > usually fast planes ie. long paved runways > vaccum up the "powder" daily (unless you like the Peanuts "Pig Pen" look > as you walk thru the shop) > clean the shop by grinding the drips off the floor > paint choices..: White, off-white & egg shell > gotta have a hanger > AND the 3 S's....Sanding, sanding & SANDING > Original post: I am about to start the rudder for a scratch built 601XL (Corvair?). However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4 completed Vision homebuilt that was for sale. (The builder had died). This project is a composite plane and total estimated time for a scratch build is 3000 hours. I have not seen any estimates of how long a scratch build is for the 601. My question is this? Has anyone worked on both metal and composite? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? I realize this is a Zenith (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have decided that is the way to go. At 59, I suspect this will be the only plane I'll have. I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much experience in that area either. I would assess my building skills as well above average and have space and tools to build about anything. I would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their project. > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:45 PM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite I would have to emphatically concur with Craig. " You should decide what kind of builder and pilot you are and what "missions" you will be flying. *Then* choose a plane. -- Craig" Here is my discussion with Mark Townsend about the plane and pilot thing. I hope he doesn't mind the posting of our private conversation, but I think it highlights' the issues to settle before you choose metal or plastic. **************************************************** Mark wrote... Craig, I hope you don't find me prying, but once in awhile I get a feeling that I need to talk to someone a little more about there decision. I am getting this feeling right now. Please don't feel I'm prying or in any way trying to influence your decisions. However, I wish to make you think and consider your decision a little further. Believe it or not I have less of a desire to sell you a plane then I do have to ensure that you finish a plane and realize your dreams. This is by far more important to me, I want to ensure that you know everything involved in your decisions and that you have a clear picture of the adventure in front of you. Would you mind telling me a little more about yourself and the process that you went through to arrive at your decision of the CH640. Once again, if I am invading your privacy or prying too much then I will hold all comments and questions and do what you ask for specifically. Nevertheless, I would rather be a friend over a salesman and help in your decision. It is just who I am, it takes a lot more of my time but on a whole any customers who I have engaged in this type of conversation have been grateful. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com My reply to Mark was..... I have 400 hrs in high wing SELAs, Roughly half in 172, half in 182 turbo G1000. Recently instrument rated, I'd like to be able to fly myself and my wife with a real life load of baggage. Missions to include all weekend and vacation travel, with possible business travel. Flight to Bahamas, Canada, AK possible. Aircraft must be capable of operation in IMC. Long haul comfort, and economical operation. I have a serious desire to continue flying, but can't afford the costs of new certified aircraft and their maintenance. I have a hangar at Livingston county airport, many shop tool including a gas and mig welding, Smithy type combination lathe/mill, drill press, air compressor, pneumatic tools, conventional mechanics tools. I'm a licensed electrician, I work in skilled trades at Ford/Wixom. I was a radar/fire control technician in the NAVY, where I learned my trade, working on radar systems/electromechanical drives and military computers. In high school I took shop classes, and my father was a civil engineer who loved to teach me concepts of physics and engineering. I first was thinking of building a Sportsman 2+2, (high wing transition, very similar to 182 in capability and performance. Recent events in auto industry have limited future overtime income. More spare time-less income. So Sportsman really is more expensive, and working with glass is totally beyond my experience, and it looks like there are a lot of environmental controls involved in the construction process that increase the cost/effort. Next I found the 801 after some poking around, not as fast as the Sportsman but it met my useful load requirements, which is my key parameter for aircraft capability. After further surfing the zenith pages, I started looking at he 640. At first I didn't consider a low-wing, but the increase in cruise speed for a minimum of cost, and the fact that my wife didn't like the idea of bush-type flying pushed the scale in favor of the 640. In summary, I felt that the 640 best met my needs for useful load, and the cost/value/skill/time envelope. Another factor was the ability to have an aircraft with exactly what equipment/power plant I wanted, within the airframe limitations of course. Hope that sheds some light. Craig Smith ************************************************* Lastly, I chose metal construction because there are fewer environmental and housekeeping issues associated with that construction, as well as IFR lightning protection. The additional steps to introduce the conductive grid into the airframe on a composite construction is complicated and would add significantly to cost/time/expertise to complete. Hope this is a frame work from which you can make your own decisions. Craig Smith ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:19 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite First off , at 59 this will probably NOT be your last homebuilt, started my first one at 29 and now 61 and have several more planned when the 701 is finished. Have built both alum and glass airplanes and everything that has been said so far is right on. There is glass and there is glass, The Vision is moldless and will require a bunch, repeat BUNCH of finish work, depending on how perfect you want the airplane. This may or may not be something you like to do. Glass airplanes CAN be as light as alum but RARELY are as it requires prepreg, ovens,vacuum, carbon, MUCH engineering to get minimum layup schedules etc. Having inspected dozens of projects that were "75-90% finished" I'd say to get someone that's completed a Vision, or at least to the point your potential project is, to comment on pictures you send him if time in construction means that much to you. Inspecting someone's glass work is difficult at best, one of the early Glasairs came apart in flight when the leading edge of the wing opened up due to upper and lower panels being joined improperly, impossible to determine after the fact, but readily apparent when the pieces were exposed. Having built both, plus rag and tube, I like aluminum. LOW&SLOW John Bolding I am about to start the rudder for a scratch built 601XL (Corvair?). However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4 completed Vision homebuilt that was for sale. (The builder had died). This project is a composite plane and total estimated time for a scratch build is 3000 hours. I have not seen any estimates of how long a scratch build is for the 601. My question is this? Has anyone worked on both metal and composite? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? I realize this is a Zenith (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have decided that is the way to go. At 59, I suspect this will be the only plane I'll have. I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much experience in that area either. I would assess my building skills as well above average and have space and tools to build about anything. I would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their project. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:14 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Apples vs. Oranges Been holding both thumbs in the palm of my hands for a week to prevent said digits flying loose and contributing to the "Aluminum vs. Composite" range war that has blazed these last few days. Can't think of anything to add to the fray, so, I won't. do not archive......it's STILL apples & oranges. Scotchbright pads come in colors. A great first day of spring to all !! 72 degrees F in north Texas. Zed ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:16 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite Depending on the skill of the builder, it is very easy to add a significant amount of weight to an airframe with improper lay-up. Unless you know how much the airframe should weigh at a particular point in the building process it is hard to detect. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Norton Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: aluminum verses composite I am about to start the rudder for a scratch built 601XL (Corvair?). However, yesterday I heard of a 3/4 completed Vision homebuilt that was for sale. (The builder had died). This project is a composite plane and total estimated time for a scratch build is 3000 hours. I have not seen any estimates of how long a scratch build is for the 601. My question is this? Has anyone worked on both metal and composite? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? I realize this is a Zenith (metal built planes) site and that the people who are here have decided that is the way to go. At 59, I suspect this will be the only plane I'll have. I'm taking flying lessons now so I don't have a much experience in that area either. I would assess my building skills as well above average and have space and tools to build about anything. I would just like to hear what others had considered when they chose their project. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:51 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nicked my spar with drill bit Been there, done that, but bigger and worser. According to 43-31, or whatever the number is, if you "dish" the surface 10 long and 1 deep, (as measured by the depth of the nick) you're OK. as long as it's a small nick or scratch. Mine, I got it real good, and will have to open it up and replace the doubler. Just make sure you leave no trace of the nick when you're done, and it's as smooth as original. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: swater6 To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:05 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Nicked my spar with drill bit > Before I send this one to Zenith, I thought I'd bounce it off the post. The one thing I've avoided during wing construction is any nicks on the main spar that would lead to a crack. Last night while drilling the small holes for nutplates for the finger screen access cover, I nicked the main main spar doubler with the bit. (I almost barfed) Standard procedure is to sand or file smooth. I sanded and it's completely smooth. But... this leaves a small concave section almost 1mm deep at the deepest point but blends out nicely and doesn't extend more than about 8mm from the top of the piece. You know the question. Would you rip your wing apart to drill out and replace the doubler or is this amount of material sanded off of no affect? -------- 601 XL kit Tail, control surfaces and 1 wing complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102111#102111 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:01 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe Re the "sorta like this", illustration, I also made a lot of aluminum shavings, trying to properly drill the *&^%$ probe. I think, though, that the magic comes from the differential pressure generated by the square nose of the probe, with the inlets on upper and lower sides of the corner of the block of aluminum. I put mine on the shelf for a while, but I plan to make a probe equivalent to my longest drill's flutes, and then mount it with tubes held rigidly. May not work, but worth a try. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: secatur To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:05 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe > Sorta like this ? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101980#101980 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/scan0002_183.bmp http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:23 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: LRI Probe From: "Ron Lendon" The only way I know how to drill deep is by peck drilling. You let the drill cut a little then back it out to free the chips, use lots of fluid. Your drill press needs about 6" of spindle travel to do the AOA I saw on ch601.org. Or you might want to look up gun drilling. Thats a method where the coolant runs through the drill. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102194#102194 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:06 PM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: xxx Re: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe Been holding off this discussion as I didn't have things quite together but lots of guys are looking for probes so I'll post what I have. I can supply these for $30, injection molded. they have 1/8" NPT (F) threads on the top. These are in stock. Been looking around for a good silkscreener for the guage face but haven't found one yet that I like so you're on your own there for the immediate future. I'll have them however as soon as I can. I'll post a picture of the probes as soon as I figure out how. Probes are black and made from nylon so rest assured that paint is probably not gonna stick. John Bolding ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:40 PM PST US From: Big Gee Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe I am going to drill mine from each end, than weld one end closed. A Fritz paulrod36@msn.com wrote: Re the "sorta like this", illustration, I also made a lot of aluminum shavings, trying to properly drill the *&^%$ probe. I think, though, that the magic comes from the differential pressure generated by the square nose of the probe, with the inlets on upper and lower sides of the corner of the block of aluminum. I put mine on the shelf for a while, but I plan to make a probe equivalent to my longest drill's flutes, and then mount it with tubes held rigidly. May not work, but worth a try. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: secatur To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:05 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe Sorta like this ? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101980#101980 Attachments: http://forumnbsp; Features Subscriptions title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron====================== bsp; available via title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:21 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: xxx Re: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe HI John; That is simply a possibility - Nylon is readily both bonded and painted, but the details are critical. Very thorough abrasion and very thin coatings are best but we do it all the time here at Boeing. John Bolding wrote: Been holding off this discussion as I didn't have things quite together but lots of guys are looking for probes so I'll post what I have. I can supply these for $30, injection molded. they have 1/8" NPT (F) threads on the top. These are in stock. Been looking around for a good silkscreener for the guage face but haven't found one yet that I like so you're on your own there for the immediate future. I'll have them however as soon as I can. I'll post a picture of the probes as soon as I figure out how. Probes are black and made from nylon so rest assured that paint is probably not gonna stick. John Bolding Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:48 PM PST US From: Jim Norton Subject: Zenith-List: composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses Something I did not remember and hence didn't mention. About 40 years ago I worked in Maine boatyard. Back then there were two common idiosycracies in working with fiberglass. One, we noticed a number of large fiberglass boats that had struck submerged rocks (reefs) split right down the keel line. Over the next few design and construction changes seemed to have eliminated this problem, or perhaps people learned where the rocks were. The second issue was people building glass boats tended to use a lot of fiberglass and the earlier production models were very very heavy. In boat building this was a good thing for the customer because the boats were virtually bullet proof. Those early models are still in demand today by commercial fishermen. However, with light airplanes, (particularly home built) this might be a big problem. I would guess that it would be hard to estimate if the partially completed plane is over weight. A two seater doesn't have a lot of payload capacity and 25 extra pounds of glass could easily be hidden in the plane. Anyway, it looks like the same problems that haunted the composite boats 40 years ago haunt the composite planes today. I haven't given up on either plane yet, just deciding to wait longer and get more information. I think that I will begin the 601 rudder because it won't cost me much more than I already spent and I like building stuff. I understand there is a whole pile of rudders stored at the Zenith plant made by potential customers who have changed their minds. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Instant Garage From: "Tim Juhl" Regarding fabric shelter - floor is your choice - dirt, wood, concrete. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102217#102217 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:43 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy latching Members, My canopy will not latch unless I pull real hard on the backside and then only the left side from the pilots position will latch on the first stage only. The right side will not latch at all. Can anyone who has had this problem on the ZodiacXL tell me what the fix is. Tracy Stone ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 330 Harker Heights, Tx ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:07 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy latching You might try putting shims under the latch pins on the canopy rails. On Mar 21, 2007, at 9:48 PM, robert stone wrote: > Members, > My canopy will not latch unless I pull real hard on the > backside and then only the left side from the pilots position will > latch on the first stage only. The right side will not latch at > all. Can anyone who has had this problem on the ZodiacXL tell me > what the fix is. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:09 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses I think in the early days of fibre glass the perception was it was the resin that gave strength to the glass. In fact the greatest strength is when the weight of the cloth is and glass is about 70:30 in favour of the cloth. the problem with this type of light weight glass is it is somewhat porous. To effectively keep water out or gas in, as the case may be, there has to be a resilient impervious coating to the glass. If this coating is marred then there are a raft of un nice things that can happen. Things like water permeation and then freezing which can cause delaminating of the glass at the worst possible time. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Jim Norton > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:42 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses > > > > Something I did not remember and hence didn't mention. About > 40 years > ago I worked in Maine boatyard. Back then there were two common > idiosycracies in working with fiberglass. One, we noticed a > number of > large fiberglass boats that had struck submerged rocks (reefs) split > right down the keel line. Over the next few design and construction > changes seemed to have eliminated this problem, or perhaps people > learned where the rocks were. The second issue was people building > glass boats tended to use a lot of fiberglass and the earlier > production > models were very very heavy. In boat building this was a > good thing for > the customer because the boats were virtually bullet proof. > Those early > models are still in demand today by commercial fishermen. > However, with > light airplanes, (particularly home built) this might be a > big problem. > I would guess that it would be hard to estimate if the partially > completed plane is over weight. A two seater doesn't have a lot of > payload capacity and 25 extra pounds of glass could easily be > hidden in > the plane. Anyway, it looks like the same problems that haunted the > composite boats 40 years ago haunt the composite planes today. I > haven't given up on either plane yet, just deciding to wait > longer and > get more information. I think that I will begin the 601 > rudder because > it won't cost me much more than I already spent and I like building > stuff. I understand there is a whole pile of rudders stored at the > Zenith plant made by potential customers who have changed their minds. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:23 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy latching Bryan, Thanks for the response, I will try that. Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy latching > > You might try putting shims under the latch pins on the canopy rails. > > > On Mar 21, 2007, at 9:48 PM, robert stone wrote: > >> Members, >> My canopy will not latch unless I pull real hard on the backside >> and then only the left side from the pilots position will latch on the >> first stage only. The right side will not latch at all. Can anyone who >> has had this problem on the ZodiacXL tell me what the fix is. > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:04 PM PST US From: Matt Reeves Subject: RE: Zenith-List: composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses I built a Lancair and my brother built a Van's RV-7A so we have this debate ALL the time. Bottom line is who you are. If you like sanding sanding sanding sanding sanding sanding and a ton more sanding, build fiberglass but if you are a nuts and bolts guy, build metal. Zenith is an awesome kit. Buy it, build it, fly it, and have a TON of fun no matter what you build!!! You only live once and you ain't getting any younger so DO IT!! Matt, Jesse, Danny, Mikhail, and Baby Ben Reeves - all airplane builders and all-around mostly good guys. Noel Loveys wrote: I think in the early days of fibre glass the perception was it was the resin that gave strength to the glass. In fact the greatest strength is when the weight of the cloth is and glass is about 70:30 in favour of the cloth. the problem with this type of light weight glass is it is somewhat porous. To effectively keep water out or gas in, as the case may be, there has to be a resilient impervious coating to the glass. If this coating is marred then there are a raft of un nice things that can happen. Things like water permeation and then freezing which can cause delaminating of the glass at the worst possible time. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Jim Norton > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:42 PM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: composite vs. aluminum thx for GREAT responses > > > > Something I did not remember and hence didn't mention. About > 40 years > ago I worked in Maine boatyard. Back then there were two common > idiosycracies in working with fiberglass. One, we noticed a > number of > large fiberglass boats that had struck submerged rocks (reefs) split > right down the keel line. Over the next few design and construction > changes seemed to have eliminated this problem, or perhaps people > learned where the rocks were. The second issue was people building > glass boats tended to use a lot of fiberglass and the earlier > production > models were very very heavy. In boat building this was a > good thing for > the customer because the boats were virtually bullet proof. > Those early > models are still in demand today by commercial fishermen. > However, with > light airplanes, (particularly home built) this might be a > big problem. > I would guess that it would be hard to estimate if the partially > completed plane is over weight. A two seater doesn't have a lot of > payload capacity and 25 extra pounds of glass could easily be > hidden in > the plane. Anyway, it looks like the same problems that haunted the > composite boats 40 years ago haunt the composite planes today. I > haven't given up on either plane yet, just deciding to wait > longer and > get more information. I think that I will begin the 601 > rudder because > it won't cost me much more than I already spent and I like building > stuff. I understand there is a whole pile of rudders stored at the > Zenith plant made by potential customers who have changed their minds. > > > > > > --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:04 PM PST US From: Matt Reeves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Instant Garage Don't use dirt. I did that and found out it lets all the moisture through and rodents and snakes and I HATE SNAKES - (spawns of Satan - kill them all). At least put down plywood but I'd say pour concrete and put some lights in it. P.S. when it rains, puddles form in the overhang areas and SNAKES get under and around and IN it and did I mention I HATE SNAKES - I don't care if they are friendly pets that you put on a leash, cuddle, and show your friends - KILL them all. Matt Tim Juhl wrote: Regarding fabric shelter - floor is your choice - dirt, wood, concrete. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=102217#102217 --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:41 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy latching Tracy, Here is how I fixed mine on the CH600. However, I doubt that most will even attempt such a fix on a 601 - to much work and to much change to the canopy area. Note the frame is also roll-over protection. Each gull wing door has a simple but very effective latch. I will be able to remove gull doors and fly without them - in fact, test flight will be done both ways. High power fan tests and fairly fast taxi tests indicate that slipstream will not enter cockpit due to shape, location and size of windscreen. Ta Da, it works. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:11 PM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Instant Garage And we all know what would happen if snakes got into your airplane workshop unnoticed.....SNAKES ON A M***F*** PLANE! Sorry, couldn't resist. On 3/22/07, Matt Reeves wrote: > > Don't use dirt. I did that and found out it lets all the moisture through > and rodents and snakes and I HATE SNAKES - (spawns of Satan - kill them > all). At least put down plywood but I'd say pour concrete and put some > lights in it. > > P.S. when it rains, puddles form in the overhang areas and SNAKES get > under and around and IN it and did I mention I HATE SNAKES - I don't care if > they are friendly pets that you put on a leash, cuddle, and show your > friends - KILL them all. > > Matt > > *Tim Juhl * wrote: > > > Regarding fabric shelter - floor is your choice - dirt, wood, concrete. > > Tim > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > ______________ > CFII > Champ L16A flying > Zodiac > ------------------------------ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:57 PM PST US From: "Steve Hulland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Instant Garage Hey, Most snakes are good. Bull Snakes keep pack rats and rattle snakes away as they eat them. Many snakes eat bugs. Small snakes fly well and remain in your pocket. Yep! Snakes on A Plane really sucked, but some snakes are fine. Do Not Archive Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:49 PM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe > Greetings. I drilled a solid piece of aluminum like > the drawing said, however I did find that the 1/8 > hole drilled out for the 3/16 hole was in the wrong > place. The dim. says drill it a half inch from the > bottom and it doesn't come out in the right place, > so I made it 3/4 of an inch from the bottom. I used > a #60 drill bit for a starter and drilled it > straight first and then changed the angle to get my > 45 degree hole. I also got brass fittings, they are > a better fit on the bar. As far as making the face > on the guage is concerned, I hand painted the > markings red, yellow and green. I used ordinary > hobby paints and I masked out the positions with > contact paper, using an exacto knife I peeled away > each part of the paper and painted that area, > letting it dry and then proceeded with the other > places. If yoiu used the markings on the original > plate it helps a lot to draw out the areas to be > painted and a French curve to get the proper arc too > Do not archive --- paulrod36@msn.com wrote: > Re the "sorta like this", illustration, I also made > a lot of aluminum shavings, trying to properly drill > the *&^%$ probe. I think, though, that the magic > comes from the differential pressure generated by > the square nose of the probe, with the inlets on > upper and lower sides of the corner of the block of > aluminum. I put mine on the shelf for a while, but I > plan to make a probe equivalent to my longest > drill's flutes, and then mount it with tubes held > rigidly. May not work, but worth a try. > > Paul Rodriguez > 601XL/Corvair > ----- Original Message ----- > From: secatur > To: > zenith-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:05 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Making an LRI probe > > > > > > Sorta like this ? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101980#101980 > > > > > Attachments: > > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/scan0002_183.bmp > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! 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