---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/27/07: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:59 AM - Old kit (chrisoz@bmail.com.au) 2. 03:50 AM - anybody have an XL near Greenville, TX? (David Downey) 3. 04:29 AM - Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing (burbby) 4. 05:07 AM - Re: Apology (secatur) 5. 05:07 AM - Re: Apology (ashontz) 6. 05:09 AM - Re: Apology (steveadams) 7. 06:35 AM - Sky Sports no longer offering 701 FWF kit (Geoff Heap) 8. 06:38 AM - Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing (Gig Giacona) 9. 06:38 AM - Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures (ashontz) 10. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: Apology (Bryan Martin) 11. 06:43 AM - Re: Old kit (Gig Giacona) 12. 06:44 AM - Re: Cradle to Grave (Scott Thatcher) 13. 06:47 AM - Re: Old kit (LarryMcFarland) 14. 06:48 AM - Re: E-LSA 601 (Bryan Martin) 15. 06:49 AM - Re: Apology (ashontz) 16. 06:54 AM - Re: Zenith Rudder Design (ashontz) 17. 07:19 AM - Re: E-LSA 601 (Gig Giacona) 18. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: E-LSA 601 (Bryan Martin) 19. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: E-LSA 601 (Paul Mulwitz) 20. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing (burbby) 21. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Old kit (David Downey) 22. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Old kit (Craig Payne) 23. 09:34 AM - Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures (TxDave) 24. 09:48 AM - Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures (ashontz) 25. 09:53 AM - Corvair - Dual sparkplugs (ashontz) 26. 10:09 AM - fittings, fuel system (Carlos Sa) 27. 10:47 AM - Re: DID I SEE THIS ON YouTUBE! 601 Looping!!!! (ashontz) 28. 11:49 AM - Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing (Gig Giacona) 29. 11:51 AM - Re: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs (Gig Giacona) 30. 12:11 PM - Re: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs (Craig Payne) 31. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing (Jaybannist@cs.com) 32. 12:23 PM - Re: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs (Gig Giacona) 33. 12:27 PM - Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing (Gig Giacona) 34. 01:07 PM - old style 601XL wheel pants () 35. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: DID I SEE THIS ON YouTUBE! 601 Looping!!!! (William Condon) 36. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: Apology (NYTerminat@aol.com) 37. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: DID I SEE THIS ON YouTUBE! 601 Looping!!!! (Brandon Tucker) 38. 04:53 PM - Re: Old kit (Bill Naumuk) 39. 05:26 PM - Re: Flap Motor Switch (Ron Ellis) 40. 05:40 PM - Re: Flap Motor Switch (Craig Payne) 41. 08:52 PM - Re: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs (David Downey) 42. 10:22 PM - Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Old kit From: chrisoz@bmail.com.au Hello Listers, I have bought a 601 HDS kit on ebay last month, and this weekend flew to the east coast (of Australia) to pick it up. Kind of exciting if you buy something unseen (no photos), pay $5000 to a person you don't know and who can't tell you much about the kit ( not even the type of 601), but I guess one sometimes has to take a leap of faith. The kit had basically not been touched, except for the rudder which had been clecoed together. The kit is 10 years old and has spent the last 8 years in a shed gathering dust and sustaining a bit of surface corrosion. While I initially didn't expect it to be complete to my delight it turned out to be, including canopy, long range tanks and even a set of strobes. The canopy has been rolled up for ten years, and has sat in a hot shed. Here is the question: Has anybody encountered problems with unrolling their canopys after a longer period of time? Also the kit came with a set of plans and a serial number, but no manual and the plans are dor the HD model. I hope Zenair will update the plans and provide me with a replacement manual, if not I might have to ask you guys for help. Greeting from Perth, Chris ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:07 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Zenith-List: anybody have an XL near Greenville, TX? Hi listers; I just learned that I am to be in the Greenville, TX area on Wednesday evening and Thursday AM. Does anyone with an XL keep it in that area and would they be willing to allow me some cockpit-fit time in the hangar or on the ramp? I have never even seen one (but have started building!) and would like to feel it out. Thank you all. Juan Vega wrote: Jeff, i have the same setup on the sensor, I recommend you go online to Amazon pipes and fittings, you can order the npt fittings there. juan -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff >Sent: Mar 26, 2007 8:34 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com, jabiruengine-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru fuel pressure sensor hookup > >It is amazing how little things can stop me cold. I'm installing the Dynon >Engine Management System (EMS) in my 601 with a Jabiru 3300A (solid >lifters). I'm installing the fuel flow sensor. The Dynon sensor has a 1/8 >inch NPT male thread on it. I am using the Zenith supplied 1/4 Inch inside >diameter ( I know about using 3/8ths) fuel hose. Has anyone found a fitting >or set of fittings that has a female 1/8th NPT on one end and a hose barb on >the other? Dynon has not replied so far. Thanks . > >Jeff Davidson > > > Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:41 AM PST US From: burbby Subject: Zenith-List: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing I am installing the wing lockers. Is there enough space to route the pitot/static lines through the lighting holes with the aileron cables; and allow a good clearance? I was thinking of drilling holes in the ribs and use gromets for protection. any ideas Zodiac XL Gary Bassham Millsap, TX do not archive --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Apology From: "secatur" All this to-ing and fro-ing leads to one end. YOU CAN"T LEGISLATE AGAINST STUPIDITY ! So whatever you decide is a right action for you..JUST DON"T BE STUPID! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103162#103162 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Apology From: "ashontz" Just from memory, I thought a regular Cessna 152 was +4 and -3 Gs where as an aerobat is +6, -6 Gs, which is the same as a 601Xl, so wouldn't that by default qualify a 601XL as an aerobatic plane by default? That wouldn't apply to the 701 though. pilot4pay wrote: > Juan, this is just not true. The FAA will cite you if you say that, and > they know your AC is not an aerobatic aircraft. Heck, they're even searching > social security records to link disabilities to pilot medicals! If they will > go to those lengths to write a violation and revoke a pilot certificate, > don't you think operating an aircraft outside it's operating limitations > would be similar? Free speech has nothing to do with it, apples and oranges! > If any of the aircraft in the videos is US registered, lets see if someone > wants to send it in to the local FSDO, just to see what happens? > Craig Smith > > -- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103161#103161 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Apology From: "steveadams" amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: > Rick, > you can use 601 ELSAs for hire (4profit) up to the end of 2008. New LSA rules allow for it. > JUan > > -- Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe there are any E-LSA 601's. A conforming kit has not been approved. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103163#103163 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Sky Sports no longer offering 701 FWF kit From: "Geoff Heap" I just recieved my 912 from Lockwood. This morning I went to the Skyshop website. I saw that the Firewall fwd kit was removed from their Zenith accessories page so I queried them. The following is my reply..... Geoff, yes, it's correct, we do not have enough skilled personnel to provide technical support. Best regards, Zaneta This is disapointing Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103171#103171 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:38 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing From: "Gig Giacona" Yes, there is enough room in the lightening holes and yes holes and grommets is also a pretty good option. I went thought the lightening holes and used quick ties between the ribs to the power wires that had gone though drilled holes in the ribs. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103172#103172 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures From: "ashontz" Looks good. I'm about ready to skin my first wing myself. Regarding the 3 piece nose skin design, did you research any existing production planes for this? I like the idea, would make maintenance much easier, I just wonder how much it affects the overall strength of the wing if at all. How long did it take you to put the skins on? Just curious, because I'm up to that point myself. do not archive TxDave wrote: > I am nearly finished with my first wing. It has taken longer than I expected to reach this point. However, a lot of that time was spent correcting my dumb mistakes. I figure the second wing will take half the time to complete. These pictures help illustrate my 3 piece LE skin concept. > > Dave Clay > Temple, TX > 601XL from plans > http://www.daves601xl.com -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103173#103173 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:18 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Apology According to Zenith's documentation, the 601XL has a 6 Gs ULTIMATE LOAD FACTOR also known as the DESIGN LOAD FACTOR, the point beyond which structural failure may occur. This load factor is generally defined as 1.5 times the FLIGHT LOAD FACTOR or LIMIT LOAD FACTOR, the maximum load the airplane is designed to handle in flight. The numbers quoted in the POH for the Cessna are FLIGHT LOAD FACTORs. A certificated aerobatic airplane has a 6 G flight load factor and a 9 G design load factor. ************* A 601xl is NOT designed for a 6 G FLIGHT LOAD FACTOR, it's designed for a 4 G FLIGHT LOAD FACTOR. ************* I keep seeing this same mistake made over and over again my many people. It's probably because certificated aircraft generally state the flight load factors in their documentation along with the note that design load factors are 1.5 times this number while home built kit manufacturers generally only state the design load factor in their brochures and websites. None of this has anything to do with the legality of performing aerobatic maneuvers. There's no rule that states that an airplane has to be certified in the aerobatic category to do aerobatic maneuvers as long as those maneuvers are not specifically prohibited by the Op Lims and the flight load factor is not exceeded. And in any case, the aerobatic category has nothing to do with an E-AB airwothiness certificate. An E-AB is approved for any maneuvers the builder says it is, with proper logbook entries. Sec. 91.303 Aerobatic flight. No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight-- (a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement; (b) Over an open air assembly of persons; (c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport; (d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway; (e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or (f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles. For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight. Sec. 23.371 Gyroscopic and aerodynamic loads. [(a) Each engine mount and its supporting structure must be designed for the gyroscopic, inertial, and aerodynamic loads that result, with the engine(s) and propeller(s), if applicable, at maximum continuous r.p.m., under either: (1) The conditions prescribed in Sec. 23.351 and Sec. 23.423; or (2) All possible combinations of the following-- (i) A yaw velocity of 2.5 radians per second; (ii) A pitch velocity of 1.0 radian per second; (iii) A normal load factor of 2.5; and (iv) Maximum continuous thrust. (b) For airplanes approved for aerobatic maneuvers, each engine mount and its supporting structure must meet the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section and be designed to withstand the load factors expected during combined maximum yaw and pitch velocities. These are the only FARs I could find that have anything to do with requirements for aerobatic flight except for a couple that prohibit aerobatic flight during charity flights by private pilots and one that states that aerobatic flight is subject to waiver. On Mar 27, 2007, at 8:06 AM, ashontz wrote: > > Just from memory, I thought a regular Cessna 152 was +4 and -3 Gs > where as an aerobat is +6, -6 Gs, which is the same as a 601Xl, so > wouldn't that by default qualify a 601XL as an aerobatic plane by > default? That wouldn't apply to the 701 though. > > > pilot4pay wrote: >> Juan, this is just not true. The FAA will cite you if you say >> that, and >> they know your AC is not an aerobatic aircraft. Heck, they're even >> searching >> social security records to link disabilities to pilot medicals! If >> they will >> go to those lengths to write a violation and revoke a pilot >> certificate, >> don't you think operating an aircraft outside it's operating >> limitations >> would be similar? Free speech has nothing to do with it, apples >> and oranges! >> If any of the aircraft in the videos is US registered, lets see if >> someone >> wants to send it in to the local FSDO, just to see what happens? >> Craig Smith >> >> -- -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Old kit From: "Gig Giacona" I think Zenith charges something on the order of $50USD to transfer the serial number to your name. Once they do they have a section on the website with the construction manual. I have recently found out that all the links in for the non-XL section of 601 website work so you might need to contact Zenith and buy an updated manual. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103176#103176 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:59 AM PST US From: "Scott Thatcher" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cradle to Grave Steve, Good reply except for the slight jab at the end. Did you hear about the Marine who had a talking dog. He took it to the local bar and the dog began to order drinks for the patrons and tell of his exploits in the Marine Corp. Soon a customer walked up to the Marine and asked if he would be willing to sell such a fantastic dog to which the Marine replied, sure, I'll take $5. The customer couldn't believe his ears and said why are you selling the dog for so little? The Marine said that the dog was a lying SOB and that the dog was never in the Marines, just the Navy! BTW, I wrote my congressmen last week about the increased user fees. Let's hope that they hear from enough of us to rethink this potential blunder! Scott Thatcher 601XL with Corvair Power 92% complete Palm Beach Gardens, FL >Scott, >I never said that I did not accept the retirement and associated benefits >that I earned while giving 20+ years of my life to the service of this >wonderful country. Fact is, I started as a private and worked my way up to >Captain before retirement. You are correct, I did not contribute anything >but sweat to my retirement - along with vastly reduced pay. At retirement I >was the equivalent to "Faculty Chief" managing an approach control and the >operations of a mid-sized joint use airport. I made far less than civilians >make in private industry doing the same work. Anyway, if you think what I >get in retirement is "from cradle to grave" living, you have a lot to learn. >All that does not change my opinion of to much government interference in >our lives - especially from the FAA. I hope that you are fighting their >desire to torpedo GA with user fees, increased class B airspace's, useless >ADIZ in large areas of the country and the rest. Are you even a US citizen? >Have a great day. -- Semper Fi, Steven R. Hulland CH 600 Taildragger Amado, AZ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:26 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Old kit Chris, Take the canopy out and allow it to find its own shape. It should still open up on its own, but very slowly. Might take a couple of days. Don't refold it after its been open. If you provide a serial number, Nick will likely update your plans for a small amount and you can get on with building. Good luck, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com chrisoz@bmail.com.au wrote: > > Hello Listers, > > > The canopy has been rolled up for ten years, and has sat in a hot shed. > Here is the question: Has anybody encountered problems with unrolling > their canopys after a longer period of time? > > Also the kit came with a set of plans and a serial number, but no manual > and the plans are dor the HD model. I hope Zenair will update the plans > and provide me with a replacement manual, if not I might have to ask you > guys for help. > > Greeting from Perth, > > Chris > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:31 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Zenith-List: Re: E-LSA 601 There are a few E-LSA 601s out there, but they weren't built from conforming kits. They were certificated under the "fat ultralight" provision of the new rules. The "fat ultralight" provision expires at the end of February of 2008. The standards document for E-LSA conforming kit manufacturing has only recently been finalized so no conforming kits for any design have yet been approved. I don't think Zenith has said whether or not they will produce an E-LSA conforming kit. On Mar 27, 2007, at 8:09 AM, steveadams wrote: > > > > amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: >> Rick, >> you can use 601 ELSAs for hire (4profit) up to the end of 2008. >> New LSA rules allow for it. >> JUan >> >> -- > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe there are any E-LSA > 601's. A conforming kit has not been approved. > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Apology From: "ashontz" Thanks for the specifics Brian. That helps clear things up. I don't intend to do aerobatics myself, but even though the 601 is not designed as an aerobatic plane, I'd be comfortable doing a loop in one, I just wouldn't do a loop at Vne. do not archive -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103180#103180 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Rudder Design From: "ashontz" I was just talking about this with Geoff Heap on Sunday (I was over his place and he had his plane out and the tail feathers on, looks good!). We both figured it wouldn't hurt to put a doubler plate in the lower and of the rudder spar that spans the distance between the hinge points. As it is those hinge brackets just rivet directly to the spar web. Considering the picture of the flipped over airplane, it's strong as it is. Add a double/stiffener plate (say .032) and you should be golden. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103185#103185 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:18 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: E-LSA 601 From: "Gig Giacona" The big problem with the conforming design E-LSA when effective will be that it won't allow any deviation from the approved design. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103191#103191 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:54 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: E-LSA 601 As I understand it, you have to build it exactly according to the plans to get the airworthiness certificate, but after that, you can pretty much do anything you want to it just like you can with E-AB. I have to correct my earlier post, the "fat " provision expires at the end of January in 2008, not February. Regardless of which route you take to get an E-LSA certificate, you can only rent the plane out to your flight students for the purpose of flight instruction. After the end of January of 2010 this provision expires and you won't be able to rent out E-LSAs at all. Then, the only difference between operating an E-LSA or an E-AB will be who can do the annual inspections. > > > The big problem with the conforming design E-LSA when effective > will be that it won't allow any deviation from the approved design. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:52 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: E-LSA 601 Also, in order to make a conforming E-LSA kit the kit manufacturer must also make S-LSA planes. I don't think ZAC has any such plans. Perhaps AMD would do that, but I have not heard they have those intentions. The type of kit envisioned in this E-LSA is more like the S-LSA than a classic kit. It doesn't have the 51% requirement and doesn't allow the builder to make ANY modifications to the design. Still, we can have our kit built planes certified under the Fat Ultralight provision through January 31, 2008. The only "For Hire" flight allowed for E-LSA planes I am aware of is "Instruction". These planes are not eligible for normal "For Hire" operations such as Air Taxi or Cropdusting or cargo hauling. The instruction provision is part of the "Bait" to get fat ultralights registered in the normal system. Paul XL fuselage At 05:48 AM 3/27/2007, you wrote: > >There are a few E-LSA 601s out there, but they weren't built from >conforming kits. They were certificated under the "fat ultralight" >provision of the new rules. The "fat ultralight" provision expires at >the end of February of 2008. The standards document for E-LSA >conforming kit manufacturing has only recently been finalized so no >conforming kits for any design have yet been approved. I don't think >Zenith has said whether or not they will produce an E-LSA conforming >kit. --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:06 AM PST US From: burbby Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing Thanks that is helpfull. Do you have splices in the tubing from the pitot tube to the instrument panel of is it one piece? Thanks Gary Gig Giacona wrote: Yes, there is enough room in the lightening holes and yes holes and grommets is also a pretty good option. I went thought the lightening holes and used quick ties between the ribs to the power wires that had gone though drilled holes in the ribs. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103172#103172 --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:00 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Old kit I just purchased a 601XL serial number from another builder who decided not to build. There was no charge from Zenith. I simply had to fill out a couple of forms and the seller also had to fill out some forms and that was it. Call them. They are very helpful. I bought all the newsletters/back issues. While many listers have stated that they feel they are useful I was not convinced of that. The assembly manual updates are free from the builders-only accessible pages and there is also a list showing the current release date for drawings. I just checked the builders pages and they show that a new set of current drawings is $50.00 to registered builders. Gig Giacona wrote: I think Zenith charges something on the order of $50USD to transfer the serial number to your name. Once they do they have a section on the website with the construction manual. I have recently found out that all the links in for the non-XL section of 601 website work so you might need to contact Zenith and buy an updated manual. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103176#103176 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:50 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Old kit > I think Zenith charges something on the order of $50USD to transfer the serial number to your name. They didn't charge me anything but then I was standing in the factory in Mexico, MO. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:18 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures From: "TxDave" Hey Andrew, I don't know about production aircraft, but I know there are other homebuilts built with multiple leading edge sections. RV's and Bearhawk for example. I got approval from ZAC before doing this. Also the new ZAC Construction Standards manual says it is OK to use multiple skins as long as they overlap a rib. I'm not one of those builders who keeps a log of every hour spent working on my airplane, so I can't say exactly how long it took. I can say for sure that it was much quicker and easier to make a 3 piece LE skin than to make the single 12' piece. It works for me, so I'm happy with it. Dave Clay http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103215#103215 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures From: "ashontz" Dave, when you say 'overlap" does that mean that the final skin tha goes on to cover the fuel tank will cover more than just the hole that we can see (ie. it will cover the tank plus, or just the ribs on either side of the tank)? If so, you must have double ribs on either side of the tankto rivet into. If not it'll be interesting to see how flush you can butt the skins. Do not archive TxDave wrote: > Hey Andrew, > I don't know about production aircraft, but I know there are other homebuilts built with multiple leading edge sections. RV's and Bearhawk for example. I got approval from ZAC before doing this. Also the new ZAC Construction Standards manual says it is OK to use multiple skins as long as they overlap a rib. I'm not one of those builders who keeps a log of every hour spent working on my airplane, so I can't say exactly how long it took. I can say for sure that it was much quicker and easier to make a 3 piece LE skin than to make the single 12' piece. It works for me, so I'm happy with it. > > Dave Clay > http://www.daves601xl.com -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103219#103219 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs From: "ashontz" Don't know much about the Corvair other than one is hanging on an engine stand in my garage. I plan to order WW conversion manul soon. Is there any aftermarket heads that allow for dual spark plugs? -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103220#103220 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:02 AM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Zenith-List: fittings, fuel system Hello, all Does anyone know of a web site or document that would help me to select fittings and other parts to put a fuel system together? I would prefer no to have a pile of unused parts when I am done... Thanks in advance Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada Do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: DID I SEE THIS ON YouTUBE! 601 Looping!!!! From: "ashontz" Yeah, now that I've read the original e-mail I agree, who is someone else to say what you can and can't do with your own plane. The past five years as seen more dangerous activity in the subprime mortgage market than and know one has said anything about that til recently, and now they're talking about picking everyone's pocket to pay for stupid people's mistakes. Eff them. As far as doing a loop in a plane, even if the 601 is not explicitly aerobatic, there's a big difference between 2.5Gs and 6Gs, or even 4Gs, design load. I'd imagine the average person would be pretty hard pressed to keep themselves in a 6G manuever. Most likely you'd get so stressed you'd ease up on the stick on the stick, and maybe not complete you loop and go into a stall and recover from that instead. Theoretically, if you do the loop right, it shouldn't be anymore traumatic than going through a loop on a roller coaster. But getting back to litigation, should we stop people from riding motorcycles? How about taking showers, plenty of people fall down in the shower? Then there's lawn mowers and snowblowers, Dag, you could cut your finger off or throw a rock through some kids eye with one of them. Here's a classic. Car brakes. You can go right down to Pep Boys and buy brake pads for your car and change them yourself, or totally screw up the job yourself. Totally up to you. You can even go so far as to buy a new master cylinder for your car's brakes and change that yourself too. OMG, I'm never going to leave the house again. do not archive [quote="Michael Valentine"]I have to agree with Brandon on this one - you/we know nothing about these individuals and the reasons they make the choices they do. Nor do we know anything about their aerobatic proficiency. Also, can you direct me to any expressed design limitation that they have exceeded or provide support for any of your numerous other assertions (bolded below)? (I personally did not receive any structural analyses or design parameters from Chris Heintz when I got my kit. One would think that if your various statements are correct, we would each have received a nice thick booklet on what we can and cannot do with our planes.) Each of us who builds the plane is the manufacturer and ultimately responsible for our own actions. Quite honestly, the attitude evinced in your email below is of more concern to me than a thousand people looping 601s on YouTube. (Of course, I know nothing about you and you might be a great and guy and a great attorney with whom I would happily share a beer. I am merely making my statement based on how I perceive the tone of your post.) I say this because I think the attitude shown in your post will lead us to a "nanny-state" where one is not responsible for his own actions a fair bit faster than the frivolous lawsuits that will occur when someone loops their 601/701 into a bus full of disabled school children. Michael in NH On 3/25/07, C Smith wrote: > > Not to sound like an arm chair attorney, but wouldn't it be prudent to > determine who the owner/operators are (based on the registration of the > aircraft) and send them each (via certified mail) a letter of caution. > Restating the design limitations of the aircraft, and noting that they're > videos display operation of the aircraft outside of the design limitations, > that such operation is unsafe to the point of intentional disregard for the > safety of themselves and others on the ground, that such operation isexpressly unsanctioned by the designer and manufacturer of the kit , and that > publicizing such careless behavior may encourage others to attempt similaracts of negligence , etc. > Just a thought, in this day and age of "I'm not responsible, go after the > deep pockets of big companies" litigation, I would be quick to distance > myself form people who would flagrantly abuse my products in such a fashion. > Lawyers could argue that the videos were public domain for XX amount of > time, and that the manufacturer/designer "should have seen/known of the > activity, and did nothing to inform the operators, and is therefore liable > for the accident". I've seen far more extreme arguments won in tort cases. > If you could simply produce the copies of the documents of warning, and > certified receipts of their mailing, it would be case closed. I would even > go so far as to send copies of that warning to the aviation administering > agencies of the registered countries of ownership, informing them of the > recorded acts of negligence. > Just my 2 cents. Cheaper to nip it in the bud now, than to pay for it when > the stupid people end up dead, with next of kin suing in court. > > Craig Smith > > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103228#103228 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing From: "Gig Giacona" I haven't gotten that far yet. The wings are done and I'm on the fuselage. I just took the tubing that Zenith sent me and ran half for the pitot and half for the static. Looking at it it will probably be close and depend on how I have to route it. It won't surprise me if I have to add more somewhere in the cockpit. burbby wrote: > Thanks that is helpfull. Do you have splices in the tubing from the pitot tube to the instrument panel of is it one piece? > > Thanks > Gary Gig Giacona wrote: > > Yes, there is enough room in the lightening holes and yes holes and grommets is also a pretty good option. > > I went thought the lightening holes and used quick ties between the ribs to the power wires that had gone though drilled holes in the ribs. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > Read this topic online Looking for earth-friendly autos? > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" (http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/;_ylc=X3oDMTE4MGw4Z2hlBF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDZ3JlZW5jZW50ZXI-) at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103237#103237 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs From: "Gig Giacona" Not that I've ever heard of. The WW system uses dual ignition on single plugs. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103238#103238 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:38 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs Mark Langford has a set that were probably custom-made: http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/twinplugs/ For Corvair-related questions you should subscribe to the CorvAircraft list: http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html To search the list's archives: http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/ -- Craig ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:32 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing I did the same thing, Gig. However, In thinking it through, I decided that I would go ahead and plumb my pitot & static instruments and run the tubing under the top longeron to the skin panel that is right beside the pilot's seat. I will make a hole in the skin large enough for both tubes. When I attach the wings, I will make a connection just inside the fuselage. It will be behind an upholstery panel so not vulnerable or in the way. Jay in Dallas "Gig Giacona" wrote: > >I haven't gotten that far yet. The wings are done and I'm on the fuselage. I just took the tubing that Zenith sent me and ran half for the pitot and half for the static. Looking at it it will probably be close and depend on how I have to route it. It won't surprise me if I have to add more somewhere in the cockpit. > > >burbby wrote: >> Thanks that is helpfull. Do you have splices in the tubing from the pitot tube to the instrument panel of is it one piece? >> >> Thanks >> Gary > >Gig Giacona wrote: > >> >> Yes, there is enough room in the lightening holes and yes holes and grommets is also a pretty good option. >> >> I went thought the lightening holes and used quick ties between the ribs to the power wires that had gone though drilled holes in the ribs. >> >> -------- >> W.R. "Gig" Giacona >> 601XL Under Construction >> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online Looking for earth-friendly autos? >> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" (http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/;_ylc=X3oDMTE4MGw4Z2hlBF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDZ3JlZW5jZW50ZXI-) at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. > > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103237#103237 > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs From: "Gig Giacona" And when you go to Mark's page make sure you read the last line on the page. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103249#103249 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:05 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Routing of Pitot/Static lines in wing From: "Gig Giacona" Sounds like a good idea Jay. I'll probably steal it. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103251#103251 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:00 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: old style 601XL wheel pants One more time listers. Any scratch builders or one kit at a time builders out there interested in an unused set of the old style wheel pants for a 601XL? All three molded fiberglass pants (packed in three boxes for shipping) plus all six steel mounting brackets included. Asking $225.00 (half Zenith factory price). Any reasonable offer would be considered. Can ship via UPS. Any takers? Ed Moody II Rayne, LA ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:11 PM PST US From: "William Condon" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: DID I SEE THIS ON YouTUBE! 601 Looping!!!! Loops usually incur a maximum of 3-4 Gs (which occurs on loop entry) -- high entry speed doesn't necessarily mean a high G-factor, unless the pilot really pulls hard on the stick. This makes a lot of sense, since the average person blacks out between 4-5 Gs (unless the pilot wears an anti-G suit to 'squeeze' the blood out of the legs and back to the brain). And, since people regularly fly loops without anti-G suits (and without blacking out), common observation demonstrates that loops do not necessarily result in high G-factors. Also, at high G-factors, it is very difficult to move body parts -- at 4 Gs, a 160 lb pilot weighs 640 lbs -- using arms, wrists and hands to further maneuver the aircraft into a 6G scenario would be quite difficult indeed. I believe that most people who die in accidents involving high G-factors die from blacking out (and crashing while blacked out) vice from structural airframe failure. In short, the pilot usually reaches his/her 'design limitation' before the aircraft can reach its. Bill Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ashontz Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:46 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: DID I SEE THIS ON YouTUBE! 601 Looping!!!! Yeah, now that I've read the original e-mail I agree, who is someone else to say what you can and can't do with your own plane. The past five years as seen more dangerous activity in the subprime mortgage market than and know one has said anything about that til recently, and now they're talking about picking everyone's pocket to pay for stupid people's mistakes. Eff them. As far as doing a loop in a plane, even if the 601 is not explicitly aerobatic, there's a big difference between 2.5Gs and 6Gs, or even 4Gs, design load. I'd imagine the average person would be pretty hard pressed to keep themselves in a 6G manuever. Most likely you'd get so stressed you'd ease up on the stick on the stick, and maybe not complete you loop and go into a stall and recover from that instead. Theoretically, if you do the loop right, it shouldn't be anymore traumatic than going through a loop on a roller coaster. But getting back to litigation, should we stop people from riding motorcycles? How about taking showers, plenty of people fall down in the shower? Then there's lawn mowers and snowblowers, Dag, you could cut your finger off or throw a rock through some kids eye with one of them. Here's a classic. Car brakes. You can go right down to Pep Boys and buy brake pads for your car and change them yourself, or totally screw up the job yourself. Totally up to you. You can even go so far as to buy a new master cylinder for your car's brakes and change that yourself too. OMG, I'm never going to leave the house again. do not archive [quote="Michael Valentine"]I have to agree with Brandon on this one - you/we know nothing about these individuals and the reasons they make the choices they do. Nor do we know anything about their aerobatic proficiency. Also, can you direct me to any expressed design limitation that they have exceeded or provide support for any of your numerous other assertions (bolded below)? (I personally did not receive any structural analyses or design parameters from Chris Heintz when I got my kit. One would think that if your various statements are correct, we would each have received a nice thick booklet on what we can and cannot do with our planes.) Each of us who builds the plane is the manufacturer and ultimately responsible for our own actions. Quite honestly, the attitude evinced in your email below is of more concern to me than a thousand people looping 601s on YouTube. (Of course, I know nothing about you and you might be a great and guy and a great attorney with whom I would happily share a beer. I am merely making my statement based on how I perceive the tone of your post.) I say this because I think the attitude shown in your post will lead us to a "nanny-state" where one is not responsible for his own actions a fair bit faster than the frivolous lawsuits that will occur when someone loops their 601/701 into a bus full of disabled school children. Michael in NH On 3/25/07, C Smith wrote: > > Not to sound like an arm chair attorney, but wouldn't it be prudent to > determine who the owner/operators are (based on the registration of the > aircraft) and send them each (via certified mail) a letter of caution. > Restating the design limitations of the aircraft, and noting that they're > videos display operation of the aircraft outside of the design limitations, > that such operation is unsafe to the point of intentional disregard for the > safety of themselves and others on the ground, that such operation isexpressly unsanctioned by the designer and manufacturer of the kit , and that > publicizing such careless behavior may encourage others to attempt similaracts of negligence , etc. > Just a thought, in this day and age of "I'm not responsible, go after the > deep pockets of big companies" litigation, I would be quick to distance > myself form people who would flagrantly abuse my products in such a fashion. > Lawyers could argue that the videos were public domain for XX amount of > time, and that the manufacturer/designer "should have seen/known of the > activity, and did nothing to inform the operators, and is therefore liable > for the accident". I've seen far more extreme arguments won in tort cases. > If you could simply produce the copies of the documents of warning, and > certified receipts of their mailing, it would be case closed. I would even > go so far as to send copies of that warning to the aviation administering > agencies of the registered countries of ownership, informing them of the > recorded acts of negligence. > Just my 2 cents. Cheaper to nip it in the bud now, than to pay for it when > the stupid people end up dead, with next of kin suing in court. > > Craig Smith > > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103228#103228 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:26 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Apology In a message dated 3/27/2007 8:09:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: Just from memory, I thought a regular Cessna 152 was +4 and -3 Gs where as an aerobat is +6, -6 Gs, which is the same as a 601Xl, so wouldn't that by default qualify a 601XL as an aerobatic plane by default? That wouldn't apply to the 701 though. Why not? The 701 is the same +6 and -3 ultimate load at gross weight. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:09 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Re: DID I SEE THIS ON YouTUBE! 601 Looping!!!! William, You are partly correct. Most people's resting G tolerance is in the 4 range. "Resting" means that you have no G suit on AND perform no anti-G straining maneuver. My resting G tolerance when I went through the centrifuge was 4.5 (I am short and stocky). The affects of positive G's are as simple as a pump's (heart) pressure head. If you are tall and have low blood pressure, you will more than likely have a low resting G tolerance. This is why on average, women have a higher resting G tolerance than men (they are typically shorter). The G-suit only adds about 1 G of additional positive G tolerance. The anti-G straining maneuver makes up the rest of the difference. In the centrifuge, we were required to maintain 7.8 G's for 30 seconds. -Something the Hornet is hardly capable of doing, but... It was painful. The Eagle and Viper guys have to go to 9 G's. Air show guys hit very high G's, but for a shorter duration of time. The factors increasing the possibility of gray out, tunnel vision, or even GLOC (G induced loss of conciousness) are the amount of G's, G onset rate, and length of time sustained. I totally agree that entry speed is not a factor, other than the higher the entry speed, theoretically, the lower the G force required to make it over the top. In relatively low horsepower and high drag aerobatic aircraft like the Citabria, 3 - 4 G's is required to make it over the top. The only problem I had with moving body parts under high G was getting my head turned around while in a defensive dogfight under high positive G (>6). I would look at the HUD for whatever information I needed, and get my head looking back prior to pulling significant G's... High positive G's were even more difficult when wearing NVG's, but that is another story... VR/ Brandon 601 HDS / TD / Corvair 80 hours --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:04 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Old kit Chris- Most of the surface corrosion will only be a problem if you decide to polish. Regardless of the plans, research the archives when you find something out of the ordinary. Don't blindly trust the instructions and build yourself into a corner. If you can't find anything in the archives, put "HD/HDS people" in your subject line when you have a question and you'll get an answer from the few, the proud, the HDS builders! Good building. Welcome aboard. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Old kit > > Hello Listers, > > I have bought a 601 HDS kit on ebay last month, and this weekend flew to > the east coast (of Australia) to pick it up. Kind of exciting if you buy > something unseen (no photos), pay $5000 to a person you don't know and who > can't tell you much about the kit ( not even the type of 601), but I guess > one sometimes has to take a leap of faith. > > The kit had basically not been touched, except for the rudder which had > been clecoed together. The kit is 10 years old and has spent the last 8 > years in a shed gathering dust and sustaining a bit of surface corrosion. > While I initially didn't expect it to be complete to my delight it turned > out to be, including canopy, long range tanks and even a set of strobes. > The canopy has been rolled up for ten years, and has sat in a hot shed. > Here is the question: Has anybody encountered problems with unrolling > their canopys after a longer period of time? > > Also the kit came with a set of plans and a serial number, but no manual > and the plans are dor the HD model. I hope Zenair will update the plans > and provide me with a replacement manual, if not I might have to ask you > guys for help. > > Greeting from Perth, > > Chris > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:21 PM PST US From: Ron Ellis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flap Motor Switch I've ordered a 10 amp breaker for my flap circuit, which is what ZAC calls out on 6-S-2 of the 03/04 version of drawings for the 601XL. I couldn't find a current draw rating on my flap motor, so I'm not sure what is required. Does anyone know if there's been a change in the requirment for the flap motor amperage? Ron Ellis Haslet, TX 601XL Jab 3300 Enigma >Time: 02:54:35 AM PST US >From: Paul Mulwitz >Subject: >Hi James, >You want a DPDT Momentary switch for this purpose. >The 601 drawings >I received from ZAC include a wiring diagram for this >function. I >also did one for my own installation that includes a >15 amp circuit >breaker (the size recommended by ZAC), the flap >switch, wiring for Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:34 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Flap Motor Switch I measured the steady-state draw of the factory actuator at 3-4 amps with no mechanical load. I assume there is an initial surge that my meter doesn't see and that the draw will be higher when actually moving the flaps in flight. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:48 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair - Dual sparkplugs Hey Andy; I am rather new to the Corvair thing myself but if I understand the WW single/dual setup it should be just fine as he does it. ashontz wrote: Don't know much about the Corvair other than one is hanging on an engine stand in my garage. I plan to order WW conversion manul soon. Is there any aftermarket heads that allow for dual spark plugs? -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103220#103220 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures From: "TxDave" The section covering the fuel tank will overlap the others at the flanges of nose ribs 3 and 4. Butting the skins together is not mentioned in the ZAC Construction Standards and was never considered. I'm going with the standard tanks. My sweet wife can't go too long without a pit stop on road trips in the car, so.... do not archive Dave Clay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103339#103339 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.