---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/29/07: 50 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:07 AM - Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures (ashontz) 2. 05:49 AM - NTSB Final Report Available (moorecomp) 3. 06:20 AM - Instrument panels (txpilot) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (Gig Giacona) 5. 06:28 AM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (Paul Mulwitz) 6. 06:31 AM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (Gig Giacona) 7. 06:51 AM - LRI Temperature Limitations?? (Ron Lalonde) 8. 07:08 AM - Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (Gig Giacona) 9. 07:15 AM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (Bryan Martin) 10. 07:27 AM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (Gig Giacona) 11. 07:27 AM - I think I fried my CHT (george.mueller@aurora.org) 12. 08:07 AM - Rudder workshop at Sun n Fun 2007 (rlaviation@aol.com) 13. 08:13 AM - Re: I think I fried my CHT (Mark Sherman) 14. 08:30 AM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (Terry Phillips) 15. 10:06 AM - Axle nuts (Bob) 16. 10:17 AM - Re: Instrument panels (Jaybannist@cs.com) 17. 10:50 AM - Re: Instrument panels (LarryMcFarland) 18. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (LarryMcFarland) 19. 11:14 AM - Re: Instrument panels () 20. 11:17 AM - Re: Instrument panels (japhillipsga@aol.com) 21. 11:34 AM - Re: Instrument panels (Bill Steer) 22. 11:46 AM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (n85ae) 23. 11:50 AM - Re: Small Vs. Big - small plane builders pep talk ... (hansriet) 24. 12:16 PM - Re:Panel thickness (Zed Smith) 25. 12:22 PM - Re: Instrument panels (Art Gibeaut) 26. 12:52 PM - Re: Instrument panels (Dino Bortolin) 27. 01:00 PM - Re: Instrument panels (LarryMcFarland) 28. 01:07 PM - Re: Panel thickness (Gig Giacona) 29. 01:11 PM - Jacking up Plane (john H) 30. 01:17 PM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (LarryMcFarland) 31. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: Panel thickness (Phil Maxson) 32. 01:47 PM - Re: Jacking up Plane (Gig Giacona) 33. 02:14 PM - Re: I think I fried my CHT (Gordon) 34. 02:32 PM - Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (Klaus Truemper) 35. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (JG) 36. 03:52 PM - Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (rickpitcher) 37. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (Robin Bellach) 38. 04:10 PM - Re: Axle nuts (Ron Lendon) 39. 04:46 PM - Re: Jacking up Plane (Tim Juhl) 40. 04:52 PM - Wing root fairings (Jaybannist@cs.com) 41. 04:57 PM - Re: Jacking up Plane (LarryMcFarland) 42. 05:15 PM - Re: Apology (Bill Naumuk) 43. 05:18 PM - Re: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' (Bill Naumuk) 44. 05:25 PM - Interiors (Bill Naumuk) 45. 05:43 PM - Jabiru Dual Throttles (Tim Juhl) 46. 06:35 PM - Re: Interiors (Craig Payne) 47. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Panel thickness (OK2AV8@aol.com) 48. 07:53 PM - Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz) 49. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Panel thickness (Randy L. Thwing) 50. 11:32 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (CH701) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Scratch built wing update and pictures From: "ashontz" I believe it's meant to give the tank a nice flush end to rest against, even with the cork. Otherwise you have a tank fitting inside a flange that has exposed rivet backs. Now what do you do, make the tank small at the ends, jam it in there and let the rivet backs wear on the tank? Better to just put the flush side of the flange towards the tank. [quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]..and I had wondered about that possibility. I will look closely at the drawings (might just reverse them into CAD so that I can better visualize the relationships) and see what the consequences would be. Hi David, I think the flanges are oriented away from the tank to allow the tank to fit into the area. If the flanges were faced toward the tank you might need to move the nose ribs apart so you can move the tank into position. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 04:35 AM 3/28/2007, you wrote: > > Why can't the rib flanges simply be oriented towards the tank bay? > That way if you do have to remove the tank-covering skin, no FOD > will result that is not Harleysville (SE) PA > Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? > > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103624#103624 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: NTSB Final Report Available From: "moorecomp" All, The NTSB released the final report on the crash from last February in Modesto, CA that killed 2 people. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1 "The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: The structural failure of the wings for undetermined reasons." Comments? Craig Moore A&P Northern MI 701 builder wannabe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103630#103630 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Instrument panels From: "txpilot" I'm looking for input from other builders on exactly how to build the instrument panel. After the basic layout is determined and holes are cut in the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' attached to the face of the instrument panel? If so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they best attached using screws and nutplates? What about paint? If possible, attach pics to any replies (especially of work in progress)! Thanks, Dan Ginty Woodlands, TX 701 builder - 70% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103633#103633 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:19 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' From: "Gig Giacona" rickpitcher wrote: > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > That basically makes it an HDS. The Zenith site says the HDS has a stall speed at 1050 lbs of 54mph and a top speed of 150mph. > > > > http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/601-hds.html > > > > The top speed isn't a problem because even if the plane can do it you could adjust the prop so it can't. > > > > The LSA max stall speed is 50 mph. Can you shave off 4 mph with vortex generators? I don't know. But remember that stall speed is at 1050 lbs. that is awful low compared to the XL. > > > > The span would be the same as the HDS: 23'. But the total surface area will > be greater than the HDS's 98'ft (compared to 130'ft for the stock HD). > The HD wing is a constant chord at 58" instead of the taper from 58" at the > root to 34" at the tip, so a clip-wing HD will have more surface area than > HDS , hence a lower stall speed than the 54mph of the HDS. > I'm not an engineer, just a mechanic... so anyone who has a better > understanding of the math involved can feel free to correct my aerodynamic > assumptions. > > Interesting idea, I'll be anxious to see how it plays out. > Rick Please note that the original poster said, "The first owner ordered modified 23' wings instead of the original 27' wings." He didn't say anything about cliping the wings. I wasn't aware that Zenith ever offered a shorter wing option other than the HDS wing. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103636#103636 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:17 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Final Report Available We pay zillions of tax dollars for this? Perhaps they should have said the plane crashed because it hit the ground. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 04:49 AM 3/29/2007, you wrote: > >All, > >The NTSB released the final report on the crash from last February >in Modesto, CA that killed 2 people. > >http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1 > >"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable >cause(s) of this accident as follows: > >The structural failure of the wings for undetermined reasons." > >Comments? > >Craig Moore A&P >Northern MI >701 builder wannabe > > --------------------------------------------- Paul Mulwitz 32013 NE Dial Road Camas, WA 98607 --------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB Final Report Available From: "Gig Giacona" One key sentence was, "The main wing aft attach points remained secured to the fuselage in the normal manner." Because, if I remember correctly, there was some talk at the time of the accident that the bolt in the rear spar was missing or loose. Do we know if this was Zenith built spar or a scratch built? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103638#103638 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:37 AM PST US From: "Ron Lalonde" Subject: Zenith-List: LRI Temperature Limitations?? List: I have the Dwyer MINIHELIC II, PRESSURE GAGE required to make the LRI indicator. I have a few operational questions however: 1. The ambient operating temperature is listed at 20F to 120F. Living in Canada, flying below the 20F temperature is most certainly probable. Will the gage still function properly?? 2. Have the different attitudes experienced during flight affected the gages performance in any way? By the way, this is a great list, fantastic gathering of builders and a wealth of information. The LRI is definately a "must have" for any aircraft, and I learned about it on this list!!!!! Thanks Ron Lalonde 601XL (slowly working on the wings!!) Nova Scotia, Canada _________________________________________________________________ Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' From: "Gig Giacona" This is an unfinshed kit so the design issue doesn't really apply. When he finishes it he can call it the SuperDuper LSA Special and not mention either Zenith nor 601. naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: > Ray- > Look in the archives. Unfortunately, LSA figures have to be attained as the plane was originally designed. As I understand it, you can't use VGs to bring an airframe into LSA requirements. > I would suggest contacting EAA or (Gulp) the FAA for a final word. > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103648#103648 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:41 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Final Report Available It still isn't very clear whether or not the rear wing attach bolts were installed. The reports states: "The main wing aft attach points remained secured to the fuselage in the normal manner." and: "The aft spar attach point was intact." But makes no mention of the rear bolts themselves. It's almost like the investigators are hinting at a possible couse but can't make a definite determination due to the extent of the fire damage. It seems to me that if those bolts were installed they would have had to have been pulled out when the wings folded as described. In that case, the attach points would have shown extensive damage due to the bolts pulling out. The only way they could remain intact is if the bolts were either not installed or fell out before the accident. Maybe they were inserted into the holes but the nuts were left off. Of course, this is all conjecture on my part since I had nothing to do with the investigation. But with the long safety record of the 601 series and my engineering background, I can't think of a more plausible explanation for this kind of accident. On Mar 29, 2007, at 8:49 AM, moorecomp wrote: > The NTSB released the final report on the crash from last February > in Modesto, CA that killed 2 people. > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1 > > "The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable > cause(s) of this accident as follows: > > The structural failure of the wings for undetermined reasons." -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB Final Report Available From: "Gig Giacona" I can't imagine considering all the other things they say, especially in the full narrative, that they would mention that the rear spar was not attached if, in fact, it wasn't. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103655#103655 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: I think I fried my CHT From: george.mueller@aurora.org I have a couple of questions about installing instruments with a Rotax 912. I accidentally put 12 volts to my VDO CHT gauge and I think I fried it. The needle at rest is now at the max reading. I didn?t notice at first that the CHT gauge requires no power (except for the light) and the + terminal is for the sender. Does anyone know if applying 12 volts to this gauge will fry it? I called VDO tech support about 25 times and never got through. Also, I am not sure to hook up the VDO tach. The back of the tack has a ground, power tab and one sender tab. I hooked up the yellow and white wire from the 912 to the sender tab and the blue and white wire from the 912 to airframe ground, and have power wire and a ground wire going to the back of the tach. I then set the DIP switch to 1=on, 2=off, 3=off. Is this correct? Finally, for anyone with the Skyshops FWF kit, I am not sure how to install the air filter in the cowl. I have a bracket and an aluminum cylinder part and a strip of foam for the air filter install and I am clueless as to how this all goes together. There is nothing on this in the Skyshops instructions. George in Milwaukee 701 almost ready to assemble at the airport ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:09 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder workshop at Sun n Fun 2007 From: rlaviation@aol.com Flight Crafters and Zenith Aircraft will be hosting a rudder workshop during Sun n Fun 2007. The dates are April 18th and 19th from 8:00am until 1:00pm. The workshop will be located at Flight Crafters Builder Assistance Center next to the Zephyrhills Municipal Airport. The Center is located approximately 20 minutes from Sun n Fun. The cost is $300 for the rudder kit. If you would like to come by and tour the facility, please do so during the workshop times. There is limited space and we are filling up, quickly. Please contact Russell Lepre' at 813-690-1916 for reservations or more details. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:36 AM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I think I fried my CHT George.=0A =0ACan't answer your question about the VDO gauge, but my guess is, it is history. I'm at work now but when I get home I will forward some pictures to you of my installation. My drawings from Skyshops show the in stallation. I could fax you a copy if you have a fax machine.=0A =0AMark S .=0A701/912ULS,=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "george.mueller @aurora.org" =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0A Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:25:56 AM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: I think I fried my CHT=0A=0A=0AI have a couple of questions about installing instrum ents with a Rotax 912. I accidentally put 12 volts to my VDO CHT gauge and I think I fried it. The needle at rest is now at the max reading. I didn =A2t notice at first that the CHT gauge requires no power (except for the l ight) and the + terminal is for the sender. Does anyone know if applying 1 2 volts to this gauge will fry it? I called VDO tech support about 25 time s and never got through. Also, I am not sure to hook up the VDO tach. The back of the tack has a ground, power tab and one sender tab. I hooked up t he yellow and white wire from the 912 to the sender tab and the blue and wh ite wire from the 912 to airframe ground, and have power wire and a ground wire going to the back of the tach. I then set the DIP switch to 1=on, 2 =off, 3=off. Is this correct? Finally, for anyone with the Skyshops F WF kit, I am not sure how to install the air filter in the cowl. I have a bracket and an aluminum cylinder part and a strip of foam for the air filter install and I am clueless as to how this all goes together. There is nothing on this in the Skyshops instructions. =0A=0A=0A=0AGeorge in Milwaukee =0A701 almost ready to assemble at the airp =========================0A =0A=0A =0A_________________________________________________________________ ___________________=0ANever miss an email again!=0AYahoo! Toolbar alerts yo u the instant new Mail arrives.=0Ahttp://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/fea tures/mail/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:27 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Final Report Available Lots of things of interest here. * 1st, the probable cause, structural failure of the wings for undetermined reasons, is troubling. But, the fire damage to the aluminum structure destroyed any evidence that might have told why the collapse occurred. * 2nd, with an estimated takeoff weight of 1326 lbs, the aircraft was 26 lbs over the stated gross of 1300 lbs. The gross currently listed for 601XL's on the Zenith website is 1320 lbs. * 3rd, this may have been the first flight of the airplane with two persons on board. If so, the extra 200 lb load may have been enough to collapse the wings. * 4th, it is not clear whether the builder, Mr. Hooker, flew the airplane beyond the 40 hr. requirement. The total hours on the airframe is not given. * 5th, while it is not explicitly stated, it appears that this aircraft was built from a kit, not from plans. That should remove the possibility that the wing spars were poorly constructed by the builder. It does not preclude damage to the spars during or prior to construction. * 6th, I find no mention in the report of the use of "hardware store" bolts in the spars which has been suggested in some posts to this group or of loose bolts. * 7th, the empty weight of the aircraft is given as 754.5 lbs which is about 60 lbs greater than the 695 lbs listed for the 601/Jab 3300 on the Zenith website. It would be enlightening to know where the 60 lbs comes from. The dual brakes are one item. My conclusion is that we should be very rigorous in evaluating the weight/benefit ratio of anything we add to the basic airframe. I'm curious what empty weights others builders have ended up with. * 8th, the reports gives the unusable fuel as 3 gal. I know I've seen that number before, but I cannot seem to find it in the information I have. A useful fuel load of 21 gal vs. 24 gal makes me wish I had opted for the 30 gal tanks. * 9th, the elongated rivet holes probably resulted from the forces of impact. However, if they were a construction defect, is it possible that they could have weakened the wing structure? In summary, lots of information here, but it would have been great if they had identified the cause of the wing failure. Then we could make sure that, at least, we try to correct any obvious shortcomings in the design. Terry At 05:49 AM 3/29/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >All, > >The NTSB released the final report on the crash from last February in >Modesto, CA that killed 2 people. > >http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1 > >"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable >cause(s) of this accident as follows: > >The structural failure of the wings for undetermined reasons." > >Comments? > >Craig Moore A&P >Northern MI >701 builder wannabe ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT Just starting a 601 kit ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:11 AM PST US From: "Bob" Subject: Zenith-List: Axle nuts Anyone have a source for 1 1/4" /12 wheel pant axle nuts other than A/S, Grove and the RV store? Wicks and Wag Aero apparently do not carry. Thanks, Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:11 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Instrument panels Dan, Here's how I did it. As you can see, a lot of the .025 has been cut away. My sub-panels are .040, and they are attached with T-nuts from the aviation department of my local Ace Hardware. I painted it with Rustoleum High Performance Enamel (Home Depot). Feel free to ask more. Jay in Dallas "txpilot" wrote: > >I'm looking for input from other builders on exactly how to build the instrument panel. After the basic layout is determined and holes are cut in the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' attached to the face of the instrument panel? If so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they best attached using screws and nutplates? What about paint? > >If possible, attach pics to any replies (especially of work in progress)! > >Thanks, > > >Dan Ginty >Woodlands, TX >701 builder - 70% complete > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103633#103633 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:05 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels Dan, .025 aluminum is a poor thickness for an instrument panel. I'd start with .050 and go from there. You will need less reinforcement and attachments will need to be fewer or less stressed by the flexure of .025. For better information, try the Bengilis Books and what's suggested there. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive txpilot wrote: > > I'm looking for input from other builders on exactly how to build the instrument panel. After the basic layout is determined and holes are cut in the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' attached to the face of the instrument panel? If so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they best attached using screws and nutplates? What about paint? > > If possible, attach pics to any replies (especially of work in progress)! > > Thanks, > > > Dan Ginty > Woodlands, TX > 701 builder - 70% complete > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:02 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' Gig, The vortex generators would lower the stall speed, but each individual HDS has to be sorted out on its own stall speed. Some will be slower and some faster, depending a lot on prop pitch, engine, weight and fairings present. Too many factors to make a single stall speed fits all envelope. Some will make SLA and others won't. Larry McFarland Gig Giacona wrote: > > > rickpitcher wrote: > >> Gig Giacona wrote: >> >>> That basically makes it an HDS. The Zenith site says the HDS has a stall speed at 1050 lbs of 54mph and a top speed of 150mph. >>> >>> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/601-hds.html >>> >>> The top speed isn't a problem because even if the plane can do it you could adjust the prop so it can't. >>> >>> The LSA max stall speed is 50 mph. Can you shave off 4 mph with vortex generators? I don't know. But remember that stall speed is at 1050 lbs. that is awful low compared to the XL. >>> >> >> The span would be the same as the HDS: 23'. But the total surface area will >> be greater than the HDS's 98'ft (compared to 130'ft for the stock HD). >> The HD wing is a constant chord at 58" instead of the taper from 58" at the >> root to 34" at the tip, so a clip-wing HD will have more surface area than >> HDS , hence a lower stall speed than the 54mph of the HDS. >> I'm not an engineer, just a mechanic... so anyone who has a better >> understanding of the math involved can feel free to correct my aerodynamic >> assumptions. >> >> Interesting idea, I'll be anxious to see how it plays out. >> Rick >> > > > Please note that the original poster said, "The first owner ordered modified 23' wings instead of the original 27' wings." He didn't say anything about cliping the wings. I wasn't aware that Zenith ever offered a shorter wing option other than the HDS wing. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103636#103636 > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:54 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels I cut a doubler out of .050" 6061-T6 and had a local machine sop bend the radius for the bottom flange. There is no side or top flange. The doubler nests inside the factory panel nice and snug. The plan is to cut out the final placement instrument holes in the factory supplied .025" panel, file and sand the edges smooth as needed. Then the shapes of the cutouts can be transfered to the .050" doubler and cut out to match. Any errors there would be filing or cutting to slightly larger size. The easier fine cuts in the thinner material will determine the esthetic result on the face of the panel and the less esthetically critical .050" doubler will provide the strength. The two pieces can be riveted or bolted together in empty areas where there are no instrument mounting screws to help hold the two together. Dred ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels From: japhillipsga@aol.com Dan, much as Larry stated the regular panel metal is really too thin unless you are not putting full size and several gages in. Maybe ok for some glass panel set ups, someone else can address that application. I took .90 aluminum and cut out two clusters and installed the clusters with 4-5 screws into platenuts. Left side for flight instruments. Rightside for engine. Center for trans & transponder. That way I can unscrew the cluster and pull out the whole section for access. Works, unfortunately this I know. Looks pretty good and isn't much of a weight addition. Remember, you cut big holes in the .90. Lastly, there is as many neat and good ways to solve this problem as there are 601s. Good luck, Bill of Georgia do not archive -----Original Message----- From: larry@macsmachine.com Sent: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels Dan, .025 aluminum is a poor thickness for an instrument panel. I'd start with .050 and go from there. You will need less reinforcement and attachments will need to be fewer or less stressed by the flexure of .025. For better information, try the Bengilis Books and what's suggested there. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive txpilot wrote: > > I'm looking for input from other builders on exactly how to build the instrument panel. After the basic layout is determined and holes are cut in the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' attached to the face of the instrument panel? If so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they best attached using screws and nutplates? What about paint? > > If possible, attach pics to any replies (especially of work in progress)! > > Thanks, > > > Dan Ginty > Woodlands, TX > 701 builder - 70% complete > > > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:43 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels I agree. A key question is whether you want to shock mount your panel or not. Some do, some don't. I shock mounted mine and made a new panel out of .063. Mine is one piece, but others have used up to three pieces. I reinforced the original panel, around the edges and vertically, with standard L angle and cut out the middle. Like Larry said, Tony's book (and articles on the EAA site) talk about how to do all that. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels > > Dan, > .025 aluminum is a poor thickness for an instrument panel. I'd start with > .050 and go from there. You will need > less reinforcement and attachments will need to be fewer or less stressed > by the flexure of .025. > For better information, try the Bengilis Books and what's suggested there. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > do not archive > > txpilot wrote: >> >> I'm looking for input from other builders on exactly how to build the >> instrument panel. After the basic layout is determined and holes are cut >> in the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' attached to the face of >> the instrument panel? If so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they >> best attached using screws and nutplates? What about paint? >> >> If possible, attach pics to any replies (especially of work in progress)! >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Dan Ginty >> Woodlands, TX >> 701 builder - 70% complete >> >> >> > > > -- > 4:23 PM > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB Final Report Available From: "n85ae" p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: > > > We pay zillions of tax dollars for this? > > Perhaps they should have said the plane crashed because it hit the ground. > > Nothing wrong with the report, they could not determine why it failed, likely because fire consumed all the important evidence of the failure. People who seek answers to every question, some times end up dissapointed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103715#103715 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Small Vs. Big - small plane builders pep talk ... From: "hansriet" [quote="Tim Juhl"]We have a group of six guys on the field that went in together and bought a Cherokee six. All but two of them are very low time pilots and the insurance company won't let them fly as PIC until they get more hours. Needless to say, those of us with lesser planes are having all the fun. Tim Juhl[/quote] I concur. I always thought that flying higher, faster and with more avionics was the bomb. Until I took lessons for my seaplane rating. It was in a beat up C152 with a 150 hp engine, no gyros. In three days we didn't have the radio on one single time (unheard of when you're normally flying in SoCal) and we were never higher than 500 ft AGL. It was the best flying experience in my life. Hans van Riet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103717#103717 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:37 PM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Panel thickness do not archive Obviously most agree that .025 is too flimsy. If you use .063 material for the panel and a couple of vertical stiffeners behnd the panel between instruments it'll be okay. I used half-by-half aluminum angle (1/8" thickness) riveted with A5s from the front. Looks okay. There were a couple of places where the angle is cut out a bit to clear instruments. The verticals are mounted about 1/3 distance from each side, instrument size and layout dictating actual brace location. The instrument holes were punched with appropriately-sized Greenlee punches. Put the big half of the punch on the back side for this, otherwise you'll have tool marks on the front that even crackle paint may not hide. Bent the bottom flange 2" in a brake, cut the top edge rounded per plans, then had a professional welder TIG a 2-inch-wide strip of .063 across the top. The wider flange & top shouldn't interfere with other items but does add some resistance to wayward knees at the bottom. With the holes cut and vertical braces in place there was no flexing. Once mounted in the airframe it is solid and instruments don't sag from their own weight. If I had it to do again I might build a "frame" only and mount it, then make the flat panel with stiffeners to attach to the frame with Cam Locks or a hinge or chewing gum or something. Attachment points would eat up some panel space. Regards to all, Zed/701/912/BR549/etc ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:44 PM PST US From: Art Gibeaut Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels Larry, can you be more specific on the book? I Googled and came up with nothing. New 701 Builder Do not archive --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > Dan, > .025 aluminum is a poor thickness for an instrument > panel. I'd start > with .050 and go from there. You will need > less reinforcement and attachments will need to be > fewer or less > stressed by the flexure of .025. > For better information, try the Bengilis Books and > what's suggested there. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > do not archive > > txpilot wrote: > > > > > I'm looking for input from other builders on > exactly how to build the instrument panel. After > the basic layout is determined and holes are cut in > the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' > attached to the face of the instrument panel? If > so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they best > attached using screws and nutplates? What about > paint? > > > > If possible, attach pics to any replies > (especially of work in progress)! > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Dan Ginty > > Woodlands, TX > > 701 builder - 70% complete > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:04 PM PST US From: "Dino Bortolin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels Art, have a look here http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/bv/books_bingelis.html Dino On 3/29/07, Art Gibeaut wrote: > > Larry, can you be more specific on the book? I Googled > and came up with nothing. > > New 701 Builder > > Do not archive > --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > > > > > Dan, > > .025 aluminum is a poor thickness for an instrument > > panel. I'd start > > with .050 and go from there. You will need > > less reinforcement and attachments will need to be > > fewer or less > > stressed by the flexure of .025. > > For better information, try the Bengilis Books and > > what's suggested there. > > > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > do not archive > > > > txpilot wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm looking for input from other builders on > > exactly how to build the instrument panel. After > > the basic layout is determined and holes are cut in > > the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' > > attached to the face of the instrument panel? If > > so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they best > > attached using screws and nutplates? What about > > paint? > > > > > > If possible, attach pics to any replies > > (especially of work in progress)! > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Dan Ginty > > > Woodlands, TX > > > 701 builder - 70% complete > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > > Web Forums! > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:49 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panels Art, Try the link below. I misspelled the Bingelis name, but the link will refer you to 4 good books on building. The one I'd recommend is Sportplane Construction Techniques http://shop.eaa.org/html/04_books_bingelis.html?cart_id Good luck, Larry McFarland do not archive Art Gibeaut wrote: > > Larry, can you be more specific on the book? I Googled > and came up with nothing. > > New 701 Builder > > Do not archive > --- LarryMcFarland wrote: > > >> >> >> Dan, >> .025 aluminum is a poor thickness for an instrument >> panel. I'd start >> with .050 and go from there. You will need >> less reinforcement and attachments will need to be >> fewer or less >> stressed by the flexure of .025. >> For better information, try the Bengilis Books and >> what's suggested there. >> >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com >> do not archive >> >> txpilot wrote: >> >>> >> >> >>> I'm looking for input from other builders on >>> >> exactly how to build the instrument panel. After >> the basic layout is determined and holes are cut in >> the supplied .025 panel, are there 'subpanels' >> attached to the face of the instrument panel? If >> so, what are the subpanels made of? Are they best >> attached using screws and nutplates? What about >> paint? >> >>> If possible, attach pics to any replies >>> >> (especially of work in progress)! >> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Dan Ginty >>> Woodlands, TX >>> 701 builder - 70% complete >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> browse >> Subscriptions page, >> FAQ, >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List >> >> Web Forums! >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:37 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Panel thickness From: "Gig Giacona" Obviously most agree that .025 is too flimsy. If you use .063 material for the panel and a couple of vertical stiffeners behnd the panel between instruments it'll be okay. I used half-by-half aluminum angle (1/8" thickness) riveted with A5s from the front. Looks okay. There were a couple of places where the angle is cut out a bit to clear instruments. The verticals are mounted about 1/3 distance from each side, instrument size and layout dictating actual brace location. The instrument holes were punched with appropriately-sized Greenlee punches. Put the big half of the punch on the back side for this, otherwise you'll have tool marks on the front that even crackle paint may not hide. Bent the bottom flange 2" in a brake, cut the top edge rounded per plans, then had a professional welder TIG a 2-inch-wide strip of .063 across the top. The wider flange & top shouldn't interfere with other items but does add some resistance to wayward knees at the bottom. With the holes cut and vertical braces in place there was no flexing. Once mounted in the airframe it is solid and instruments don't sag from their own weight. If I had it to do again I might build a "frame" only and mount it, then make the flat panel with stiffeners to attach to the frame with Cam Locks or a hinge or chewing gum or something. Attachment points would eat up some panel space. Regards to all, Zed/701/912/BR549/etc Why in God's name would you not want that archived? You don't have to answer it is now. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103733#103733 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:07 PM PST US From: "john H" Subject: Zenith-List: Jacking up Plane Hi List Its time to change tires on my 601 and was wondering how people were jacking up and supporting the plane to change the mains. It seems the only place to lift would be under the spars. Anybody done this or have ideas? Thanks John _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:52 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB Final Report Available Terry, The thing I see so often and would question, is whether the cap angles were of the correct material. Too often people ask if the spar cap angles can be bought from local sources like Farm & Fleet. The fact that the wing is considerably thinner and that so many have questioned the material for this particular part of construction suggests that perhaps the builder(s) may have made a seriously bad assumption. I'd doubt FAA investigators would even check material type and strength. Simple adherence to material and bolt call outs would not get you to failure of a spar structure with any of the excess weights below. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Terry Phillips wrote: > Lots of things of interest here. > > * 1st, the probable cause, structural failure of the wings for > undetermined reasons, is troubling. But, the fire damage to the > aluminum structure destroyed any evidence that might have told > why the collapse occurred. > * 2nd, with an estimated takeoff weight of 1326 lbs, the aircraft > was 26 lbs over the stated gross of 1300 lbs. The gross > currently listed for 601XL's on the Zenith website is 1320 lbs. > * 3rd, this may have been the first flight of the airplane with > two persons on board. If so, the extra 200 lb load may have been > enough to collapse the wings. > * 4th, it is not clear whether the builder, Mr. Hooker, flew the > airplane beyond the 40 hr. requirement. The total hours on the > airframe is not given. > * 5th, while it is not explicitly stated, it appears that this > aircraft was built from a kit, not from plans. That should > remove the possibility that the wing spars were poorly > constructed by the builder. It does not preclude damage to the > spars during or prior to construction. > * 6th, I find no mention in the report of the use of "hardware > store" bolts in the spars which has been suggested in some posts > to this group or of loose bolts. > * 7th, the empty weight of the aircraft is given as 754.5 lbs > which is about 60 lbs greater than the 695 lbs listed for the > 601/Jab 3300 on the Zenith website. It would be enlightening to > know where the 60 lbs comes from. The dual brakes are one item. > My conclusion is that we should be very rigorous in evaluating > the weight/benefit ratio of anything we add to the basic > airframe. I'm curious what empty weights others builders have > ended up with. > * 8th, the reports gives the unusable fuel as 3 gal. I know I've > seen that number before, but I cannot seem to find it in the > information I have. A useful fuel load of 21 gal vs. 24 gal > makes me wish I had opted for the 30 gal tanks. > * 9th, the elongated rivet holes probably resulted from the forces > of impact. However, if they were a construction defect, is it > possible that they could have weakened the wing structure? > > In summary, lots of information here, but it would have been great if > they had identified the cause of the wing failure. Then we could make > sure that, at least, we try to correct any obvious shortcomings in the > design. > > Terry ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:08 PM PST US From: Phil Maxson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Panel thickness I'm using the stock, standard, kit-supplied instrument panel. All my instr uments are just hanging out the back. My Transponder and COM Radio are abo ut 6 inches long, so they are braced in the back. Other than that, I haven 't had any problems. I've been flying for about 120 hours now. It sure is easy to over think th ings when you're building. Just cut holes in the stock panel, get finished early and go flying.Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Panel thickness> From: wr.giacona@suddenlink.ne t> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:06:50 -0700> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> > >> > Obviously most agree that .025 is too flimsy.> > If you use .063 mater ial for the panel and a couple of vertical stiffeners behnd the panel betwe en instruments it'll be okay.> > I used half-by-half aluminum angle (1/8" t hickness) riveted with A5s from the front. Looks okay.> There were a couple of places where the angle is cut out a bit to clear instruments. The verti cals are mounted about 1/3 distance from each side, instrument size and lay out dictating actual brace location. The instrument holes were punched with appropriately-sized Greenlee punches. Put the big half of the punch on the back side for this, otherwise you'll have tool marks on the front that eve n crackle paint may not hide.> > Bent the bottom flange 2" in a brake, cut the top edge rounded per plans, then had a professional welder TIG a 2-inch -wide strip of .063 across the top. The wider flange & top shouldn't interf ere with other items but does add some resistance to wayward knees at the b ottom.> > With the holes cut and vertical braces in place there was no flex ing. Once mounted in the airframe it is solid and instruments don't sag fro m their own weight.> > If I had it to do again I might build a "frame" only and mount it, then make the flat panel with stiffeners to attach to the fr ame with Cam Locks or a hinge or chewing gum or something. Attachment point s would eat up some panel space. > > Regards to all,> > Zed/701/912/BR549/e tc> > Why in God's name would you not want that archived? You don't have to answer it is now.> > --------> W.R. "Gig" Giacona> 601XL Under C onstruction> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR> > > > > Read thi s topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=10373 ====================> > > _________________________________________________________________ It=92s tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips. aspx?icid=WLMartagline ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jacking up Plane From: "Gig Giacona" If it is an XL I think you could do it under the main gear with two or if you have some help one jack. this might not work as well with and earlier 601. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103740#103740 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:14 PM PST US From: "Gordon" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I think I fried my CHT George, I also am using VDO gages with my 912. They have a terminal for the sender wire, and a 12 V + terminal and a 12V ground as well as separate terminals + and ground for the light. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: george.mueller@aurora.org To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:25 AM Subject: Zenith-List: I think I fried my CHT I have a couple of questions about installing instruments with a Rotax 912. I accidentally put 12 volts to my VDO CHT gauge and I think I fried it. The needle at rest is now at the max reading. I didn't notice at first that the CHT gauge requires no power (except for the light) and the + terminal is for the sender. Does anyone know if applying 12 volts to this gauge will fry it? I called VDO tech support about 25 times and never got through. Also, I am not sure to hook up the VDO tach. The back of the tack has a ground, power tab and one sender tab. I hooked up the yellow and white wire from the 912 to the sender tab and the blue and white wire from the 912 to airframe ground, and have power wire and a ground wire going to the back of the tach. I then set the DIP switch to 1=on, 2=off, 3=off. Is this correct? Finally, for anyone with the Skyshops FWF kit, I am not sure how to install the air filter in the cowl. I have a bracket and an aluminum cylinder part and a strip of foam for the air filter install and I am clueless as to how this all goes together. There is nothing on this in the Skyshops instructions. George in Milwaukee 701 almost ready to assemble at the airport ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:29 PM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' Hi Ray, You may want to do the following. First, you can install vortex generators, if you are so inclined. This is a quick thing to do. Then, if that does not suffices, you may want to look into the wing root fairings I have designed, seen at http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/wing_root_fairing.html With those fairings, you surely will satisfy the LSA requirements, for the following reasons. For my HDS, the fairings reduced the stall speed at 1020 lbs from 50 KIAS to 42 kts KIAS, which translates to 58 mph versus 48 mph. My guess is that a 1,100 lbs, which effectively is the gross limit for my plane due to CG limitations, I would satisfy LSA. Your clipped wing HD has substantially more wing area than the HDS since the wing does not taper. Hence, stall speed will be even lower. BTW, do not worry about top speed going beyond the LSA requirement. With all the design improvements, my HDS has top speed somewhere around 132 mph, single pilot, 3,000 ft altitude. This is with the 80 hp Rotax 912 UL and with the propeller pitched so that, in level flight, wide open throttle produces 5,400 rpm. Best wishes, Klaus -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:51 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' What excellent work Klaus! That's really interesting and significant results....... Tailwinds always, JG Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Truemper To: Zenith-List@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' Hi Ray, You may want to do the following. First, you can install vortex generators, if you are so inclined. This is a quick thing to do. Then, if that does not suffices, you may want to look into the wing root fairings I have designed, seen at http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/wing_root_fairing.html With those fairings, you surely will satisfy the LSA requirements, for the following reasons. For my HDS, the fairings reduced the stall speed at 1020 lbs from 50 KIAS to 42 kts KIAS, which translates to 58 mph versus 48 mph. My guess is that a 1,100 lbs, which effectively is the gross limit for my plane due to CG limitations, I would satisfy LSA. Your clipped wing HD has substantially more wing area than the HDS since the wing does not taper. Hence, stall speed will be even lower. BTW, do not worry about top speed going beyond the LSA requirement. With all the design improvements, my HDS has top speed somewhere around 132 mph, single pilot, 3,000 ft altitude. This is with the 80 hp Rotax 912 UL and with the propeller pitched so that, in level flight, wide open throttle produces 5,400 rpm. Best wishes, Klaus -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' From: "rickpitcher" [quote="Gig Giacona Please note that the original poster said, "The first owner ordered modified 23' wings instead of the original 27' wings." He didn't say anything about cliping the wings. I wasn't aware that Zenith ever offered a shorter wing option other than the HDS wing.[/quote] Ahhh... I see. Good point Gig. The title "601HD wings modified to 23'" had me thinking that these were HD wings modified to 23'. I figured the "modified" part meant that they were clipped. This was discussed on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/601_HD-HDS/ a few months ago. I had talked to one of the ZAC guys (Sebastion?) about doing exactlty that: clipping about 2' from the outboard tip of the HD wing, clipping off the outboard panel and ending the wing at the end of the aileron. Ray, are the ribs all the same size, or are there pairs of progressively smaller ribs as the planform goes outboard? Thanks, Rick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103766#103766 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:23 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' DITTO! I'm rethinking my planed XL fairings! Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: JG To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' What excellent work Klaus! That's really interesting and significant results....... Tailwinds always, JG Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Truemper To: Zenith-List@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' Hi Ray, You may want to do the following. First, you can install vortex generators, if you are so inclined. This is a quick thing to do. Then, if that does not suffices, you may want to look into the wing root fairings I have designed, seen at http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/wing_root_fairing.html With those fairings, you surely will satisfy the LSA requirements, for the following reasons. For my HDS, the fairings reduced the stall speed at 1020 lbs from 50 KIAS to 42 kts KIAS, which translates to 58 mph versus 48 mph. My guess is that a 1,100 lbs, which effectively is the gross limit for my plane due to CG limitations, I would satisfy LSA. Your clipped wing HD has substantially more wing area than the HDS since the wing does not taper. Hence, stall speed will be even lower. BTW, do not worry about top speed going beyond the LSA requirement. With all the design improvements, my HDS has top speed somewhere around 132 mph, single pilot, 3,000 ft altitude. This is with the 80 hp Rotax 912 UL and with the propeller pitched so that, in level flight, wide open throttle produces 5,400 rpm. Best wishes, Klaus -- Klaus Truemper Professor Emeritus of Computer Science University of Texas at Dallas Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science EC31 P.O. Box 830688 Richardson, TX 75083-0688 (972) 883-2712 klaus@utdallas.edu www.utdallas.edu/~klaus http://www.matron=================== === bsp; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Axle nuts From: "Ron Lendon" Looks like McMaster Carr has castle nuts that might meet your needs. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103770#103770 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:38 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jacking up Plane From: "Tim Juhl" I've wondered the same thing. With flat gear cessnas you can make a bracket out of a couple of pieces of heavy steel or aluminum angle by clamping it to the leg with bolts at either end. You'll want to pad it with something to protect the paint. To the bottom angle weld a ball or something that will engage the top of the jack. I suggest a floor jack on wheels as the gear will probably spring out on you a bit when you raise it. Tim Juhl -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103775#103775 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:15 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Zenith-List: Wing root fairings Klaus, For those of us building XLs (with flaps), what do you think would be the effect of adding only the forward part of the wing root fairings? Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:41 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jacking up Plane John, If you have the fork type the link below will show you the easiest way to lift the plane to change out tires and wheels, etc. Very low investment. see link, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/hscentersection/full/Teebarforkjack2.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601-gear-fork-jack.gif Larry McFarland do not archive john H wrote: > > Hi List > Its time to change tires on my 601 and was wondering how people were > jacking up and supporting the plane to change the mains. It seems the > only place to lift would be under the spars. Anybody done this or have > ideas? > Thanks > John > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:18 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Apology Paul- Cool. On my 3rd flight ever with an instructor, he had me kick hard right rudder while in a power on stall in our 1971 C150 trainer. You know, the kind that had "Learn how to fly" on the tail. When I recovered from the blackout from the snap roll, he said "You don't want to do that". It was a real rush. Unfortuately (Or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) I've managed to outlive my first instructor by better than 30 years. As I understand it, the only difference between a C-150 and an Aerobat is the grade of a couple of spar bolts. I could care less about loops, but I intend to aileron roll my HDS. Call me conservatively stupid. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: paulrod36@msn.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Apology Breathes there a man with soul so glub, Would never loop a J-3 Cub; To make the horizon all a-snocker, And barrel roll an old Airknocker? Is his sense of joy so thin, He'd never want to do a spin? To heave the stick to left or right and aileron roll with all his might? Others might think him a bit daft. As he Immelmans his Taylorcraft. One could not say he's lived at all, If he hasn't tried a hammerhead stall. To nibble at the edge of fright, In recovery from vertical flight. People do these, all wide-eyed, In airplanes that're Certified. God lets people be all erratics, But he only lets pilots know aerobatics. (Apologies to the Muse!) Paul Rodriguez DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 3:05 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Apology > The FAA doesn't much care if you kill yourself in an airplane as long as you don't take out anybody else with you. But your heirs might have a hard time collecting on your insurance: personal li======================== ======================nbsp; - The Zenith-List Email Forum -http:/====================== ========================n bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB rums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:=========== =========== ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:29 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' Gig- I can't say you're right, but I think you're wrong. EAA said NO. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:07 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HD wings modified to 23' > > > This is an unfinshed kit so the design issue doesn't really apply. When he > finishes it he can call it the SuperDuper LSA Special and not mention > either Zenith nor 601. > > > naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: >> Ray- >> Look in the archives. Unfortunately, LSA figures have to be >> attained as the plane was originally designed. As I understand it, you >> can't use VGs to bring an airframe into LSA requirements. >> I would suggest contacting EAA or (Gulp) the FAA for a final word. >> Bill Naumuk >> HDS Fuse/Corvair >> Townville, Pa >> > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103648#103648 > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:29 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Interiors All- I can't run a sewing machine, and ma's no better. Links for interiors would be appreciated. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru Dual Throttles From: "Tim Juhl" I'm sorting out the FWF kit from JabiruUSA that I purchased along with a 3300A. I ordered the dual throttle kit but there is no documentation. I've figured most of it out except for a 4 inch long piece of 1/8th x 3/4 inch aluminum. Can anyone tell me what that piece is used for and does anyone have some pictures of the dual throttle kit (firewall side) installed? Thanks! Tim Juhl -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103787#103787 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:46 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Interiors I'm not certain if theses nominal "XL" seats will fit in your HDS. The side-panel fit is even more debatable. Top dollar but I bought some of their factory leftovers on sale and am impressed by the quality. They are good people to work with - they sent me the seats without payment and told me that if they fit I should call back with my CC number. www.skyshops.org/601seatsZ.htm A lower cost alternative is to buy foam from these folks, cut it , form it, glue it and have a local upholstery shop cover them. They have templates for the XL but I don't know what they have for the HDS. Figuring out the dimensions on your own isn't hard. www.seatfoam.com I debate the need for any side panels but if you want them the simple approach is to find some inflammable foam 3/4" thick, cut to fit between the stiffeners and cover with the material of your choice attached with 3M spray adhesive. No sewing needed. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:27 PM PST US From: OK2AV8@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Panel thickness I'm with Phil. Stock, standard, kit supplied with all electric 6-pack. No problems so far. The factory demonstrator has the same with more than 1000 hours. Chris Heintz designs light. You (the manufacturer/owner/maintainer) can chose to add weight. Tim Garrett 601XL/Jabiru 3300 St. Louis flyingwithms.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:01 PM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR (2) causing it myself somehow, unknowingly. I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a smooth dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of spar). What is your take? Thanks, Tom ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:50 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Panel thickness Be cautious adding weight, I have never attended a "happy" weighing. Most homebuilts come in overweight. If you wind up adding more than estimated weight, you may choose to use the attached VSI. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive EAA B-17 "Aluminum Overcast" arrived at VGT (North Las Vegas Air Terminal) today, our EAA Chapter 163 will be working with them all weekend, neat looking big bird! Chris Heintz designs light. You (the manufacturer/owner/maintainer) can chose to add weight. Tim Garrett ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:05 PM PST US From: "CH701" <701stol@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent Hey Tom, Please post Zeniths reply to your question about the dent on this list. Thanks, Todd _____ I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a smooth dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of spar). 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