Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:56 AM - Re: Wing root fairings (alex_001)
2. 03:12 AM - Re: Apology (David Downey)
3. 03:13 AM - Re: Interiors (David Downey)
4. 03:13 AM - Re: Interiors (David Downey)
5. 03:20 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (David Downey)
6. 05:20 AM - Re: Jacking up Plane (steveadams)
7. 05:26 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (steveadams)
8. 06:06 AM - Re: Panel thickness (T. Graziano)
9. 06:09 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz)
10. 07:06 AM - Re: Cessna Aerobat (was: Apology) (Peter Chapman)
11. 07:53 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: Jacking Up Plane (John M. Goodings)
12. 08:28 AM - Re: Interiors (Craig Payne)
13. 08:41 AM - Re: Interiors (Juan Vega)
14. 08:45 AM - Fw: Re: Interiors (David Downey)
15. 08:45 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Juan Vega)
16. 08:58 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz)
17. 09:04 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz)
18. 09:21 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Edward Moody II)
19. 09:25 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz)
20. 09:37 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz)
21. 10:29 AM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (William Dominguez)
22. 10:51 AM - deburing holes (raymondj)
23. 10:59 AM - Re: deburing holes (Tom Lutz)
24. 11:51 AM - Re: deburing holes (Gig Giacona)
25. 12:01 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Edward Moody II)
26. 12:29 PM - Re: Wing root fairings (Klaus Truemper)
27. 01:17 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (David Downey)
28. 01:31 PM - Re: Jabiru Dual Throttles (Jeff Davidson)
29. 01:33 PM - Re: deburing holes (David Downey)
30. 02:16 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal (Big Gee)
31. 02:33 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Ron Lendon)
32. 02:41 PM - Re: deburing holes (Ron Lendon)
33. 03:06 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Juan Vega)
34. 04:11 PM - Interiors (Bill Naumuk)
35. 04:28 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz)
36. 04:50 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal (Tom Lutz)
37. 04:57 PM - cowling dimensions? (David Downey)
38. 05:18 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Edward Moody II)
39. 05:33 PM - Re: Rudder Spar Dent (Tom Lutz)
40. 07:56 PM - Re: a picture for today (Christian Tremblay)
41. 08:56 PM - Re: Cessna Aerobat (was: Apology) (ashontz)
42. 09:00 PM - Another forced landing (Bryan Martin)
43. 09:08 PM - Re: NTSB Final Report Available (ashontz)
44. 09:50 PM - Re: Another forced landing (NYTerminat@aol.com)
45. 10:34 PM - Re: Another forced landing (Bryan Martin)
46. 10:51 PM - Re: Re: NTSB Final Report Available (Steve Shuck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root fairings |
i would like to hear all info about wing root fairings for xl as i am about to
make some but if someone has allready done some please contact me.
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103824#103824
Message 2
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I used to be on teh Material Review Board at Cessna in the early 80s. The biggest
difference between the 150 and the Aerobat (according to Stress) was that the
Aerobats wings had to be completely free of "standard repairs" and other discrepancies
that usually occur in virtually any build. These "perfect wings" wer
strong enough for the loads from the approved maneuvers.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
Paul-
Cool. On my 3rd flight ever with an instructor, he had me kick hard right
rudder while in a power on stall in our 1971 C150 trainer. You know, the kind
that had "Learn how to fly" on the tail.
When I recovered from the blackout from the snap roll, he said "You don't
want to do that".
It was a real rush. Unfortuately (Or fortunately, depending on how you look
at it) I've managed to outlive my first instructor by better than 30 years.
As I understand it, the only difference between a C-150 and an Aerobat is
the grade of a couple of spar bolts. I could care less about loops, but I intend
to aileron roll my HDS. Call me conservatively stupid.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: paulrod36@msn.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Apology
Breathes there a man with soul so glub,
Would never loop a J-3 Cub;
To make the horizon all a-snocker,
And barrel roll an old Airknocker?
Is his sense of joy so thin,
He'd never want to do a spin?
To heave the stick to left or right
and aileron roll with all his might?
Others might think him a bit daft.
As he Immelmans his Taylorcraft.
One could not say he's lived at all,
If he hasn't tried a hammerhead stall.
To nibble at the edge of fright,
In recovery from vertical flight.
People do these, all wide-eyed,
In airplanes that're Certified.
God lets people be all erratics,
But he only lets pilots know aerobatics.
(Apologies to the Muse!)
Paul Rodriguez
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Payne
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Apology
> The FAA doesn't much care if you kill yourself in an airplane as long as
you don't take out anybody else with you.
But your heirs might have a hard time collecting on your insurance: personal
li=====================nbsp; - The Zenith-List Email Forum -http:/==============================================nbsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB rums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:======================
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
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Message 3
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Jay Bannister in Dallas had a good idea: he built up the foam cushions and modified
standard car bucket seat covers. Probably as good as my plane will be!!
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote: All-
I can't run a sewing machine, and ma's no better. Links for interiors would
be appreciated.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
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Message 4
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Craig, did you mean inflammable or fire resistant?
do not archive
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
I'm not certain if theses nominal "XL" seats will fit in your HDS. The
side-panel fit is even more debatable. Top dollar but I bought some of their
factory leftovers on sale and am impressed by the quality. They are good people
to work with - they sent me the seats without payment and told me that if they
fit I should call back with my CC number.
www.skyshops.org/601seatsZ.htm
A lower cost alternative is to buy foam from these folks, cut it , form it, glue
it and have a local upholstery shop cover them. They have templates for the
XL but I don't know what they have for the HDS. Figuring out the dimensions
on your own isn't hard.
www.seatfoam.com
I debate the need for any side panels but if you want them the simple approach
is to find some inflammable foam 3/4" thick, cut to fit between the stiffeners
and cover with the material of your choice attached with 3M spray adhesive.
No sewing needed.
-- Craig
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
according to your post it is a "smooth dent". I take this to mean that it does
not have either a mark at the bottom of the impression or sharp departures at
the limits of the depression. If that is so, as I recal, this is under the footprint
of the spar flange angle doubler. It might be possible to bump it back
to contour without cracking or tearing the material using a stick made from maple
with a relatively small radius on the end and a block of pine on the outside
as an anvil. This would allow the doubler to lie shear on the inner surface
of the flange as designed.
Ideally, the hole pattern will straddle this defect. Being so near the tip, is
does not see a lot of bending and may not be a critical issue. ZAC will know.
Just be cautious if it is near and beyond the end of the doubler. If something
were to happen you would not be able to inspect for it...
Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR (2)
causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a smooth dent,
about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of spar).
What is your take?
Thanks,
Tom
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: Jacking up Plane |
I have a CH640 and the following is recommended by Zenith and very simple. For
the mains, you just need a padded sawhorse that is a few inches taller than the
bottom of the spar at midspan. Bend over and put your upper back on the spar,
lift the wing, and slide the padded sawhorse under the wing along a rib rivet
line around the wing mid span. Even with the heavier 640 it is pretty easy to
lift the plane this way. It's also very stable and is not going to fall over.
Working on one side at a time, the amount of force you are putting on the wing
is much less than that seen with normal straight and level flight. For the
nose, just hook an engine hoist onto the engine hook and lift the front wheel
off the ground. Again, with the weight of the rear of the plane counterbalancing
the engine weight, you are actually applying less force to the engine hook
than you would if you were just lifting the engine alone. It's stable and is not
going anywhere. Keep it simple.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103839#103839
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
Aluminum is relatively cheap and it looks like you haven't done much work on it.
It's probably inconsequential, but why start your build with a main structural
part that is defective. I would just get a new one. The old spar will make
a great doubler down the road when installing antennas, ELT's etc. so it won't
go to waste.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103840#103840
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Panel thickness |
I also did it the way Mr. Maxon did it. No problems.
Tony Graziano
XL; N493TG; 222 hrs
--
Time: 01:29:08 PM PST US
From: Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Panel thickness
I'm using the stock, standard, kit-supplied instrument panel. All my instr
uments are just hanging out the back. My Transponder and COM Radio are abo
ut 6 inches long, so they are braced in the back. Other than that, I haven
't had any problems.
I've been flying for about 120 hours now. It sure is easy to over think th
ings when you're building. Just cut holes in the stock panel, get finished
early and go flying.Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
Thanks for the advice. The dent is 220mm from the top of the spar, so there
is no doubler there. Depending on what the engineers at ZAC say, I may just
get a new one as Steve suggested. I'll make sure to post with ZAC's
response.
Tom
On 3/30/07, David Downey < planecrazydld@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> according to your post it is a "smooth dent". I take this to mean that it
> does not have either a mark at the bottom of the impression or sharp
> departures at the limits of the depression. If that is so, as I recal, this
> is under the footprint of the spar flange angle doubler. It might be
> possible to bump it back to contour without cracking or tearing the material
> using a stick made from maple with a relatively small radius on the end and
> a block of pine on the outside as an anvil. This would allow the doubler to
> lie shear on the inner surface of the flange as designed.
>
> Ideally, the hole pattern will straddle this defect. Being so near the
> tip, is does not see a lot of bending and may not be a critical issue. ZAC
> will know. Just be cautious if it is near and beyond the end of the doubler.
> If something were to happen you would not be able to inspect for it...
>
> *Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR
> (2) causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
>
> I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a
> smooth dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top
> of spar). What is your take?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> Dave Downey
> Harleysville (SE) PA
> Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
>
> ------------------------------
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cessna Aerobat (was: Apology) |
Previous posts:
>I used to be on teh Material Review Board at Cessna in the early
>80s. The biggest difference between the 150 and the Aerobat
>(according to Stress) was that the Aerobats wings had to be
>completely free of "standard repairs" and other discrepancies that
>usually occur in virtually any build. These "perfect wings" wer
>strong enough for the loads from the approved maneuvers.
Interesting!
> As I understand it, the only difference between a C-150 and an
> Aerobat is the grade of a couple of spar bolts. I could care less
> about loops, but I intend to aileron roll my HDS. Call me
> conservatively stupid.
I should also note that Aerobats did have quite a few other strength
improvements not easily visible.
I'm pretty sure of this, as I recall it from an old Sport Aerobatics
magazine article that went into detail. I really can't recall exactly
what the changes were, but it was stuff like thickness increases in
various structural members, added gussets for stiffness, maybe
thicker skins, an extra rib in the tail, etc. Wing struts used the
cross section of a larger Cessna, the 172 I think.
So while some limited aerobatics may be possible in "regular
airplanes", don't think that the Aerobat was just a 150 with a fancy
paint job and a bigger sticker price.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: Jacking Up Plane |
Don't make a big thing of this. Get under the wing with your back,
shoulder blades on the spar, and lift. It is easy. Get some boxes with a
towel on top to put under the spar to raise the wheel a couple of inches
off the ground. I have even used strong cardboard boxes. It just isn't
very heavy. Your legs are doing the lifting. If a puny 70-year-old can
do it, so can you!
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa.
Message 12
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> Craig, did you mean inflammable or fire resistant?
> do not archive
Depends on how boring your life
is.
-- Craig
Message 13
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check out flight crafters' seats, I bought them, and they are comfortable and look
great.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: David Downey <planecrazydld@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Mar 30, 2007 6:10 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Interiors
>
>Craig, did you mean inflammable or fire resistant?
>
> do not archive
>
>Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
> I'm not certain if theses nominal "XL" seats will fit in your HDS. The
side-panel fit is even more debatable. Top dollar but I bought some of their
factory leftovers on sale and am impressed by the quality. They are good people
to work with - they sent me the seats without payment and told me that if
they fit I should call back with my CC number.
>
> www.skyshops.org/601seatsZ.htm
>
>
> A lower cost alternative is to buy foam from these folks, cut it , form it,
glue it and have a local upholstery shop cover them. They have templates for the
XL but I don't know what they have for the HDS. Figuring out the dimensions
on your own isn't hard.
>
> www.seatfoam.com
>
> I debate the need for any side panels but if you want them the simple approach
is to find some inflammable foam 3/4" thick, cut to fit between the stiffeners
and cover with the material of your choice attached with 3M spray adhesive.
No sewing needed.
>
> -- Craig
>
>
>
> Dave Downey
> Harleysville (SE) PA
> Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
>Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 14
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I guess it came across blank the last time?
Does anyone know why this happens occasionally? This blank was sent between two
that went to the same place and showed up just fine...
David Downey <planecrazydld@yahoo.com> wrote:
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:08:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Downey <planecrazydld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Interiors
Jay Bannister in Dallas had a good idea: he built up the foam cushions and modified
standard car bucket seat covers. Probably as good as my plane will be!!
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote: All-
I can't run a sewing machine, and ma's no better. Links for interiors would
be appreciated.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look
bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com>
>Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:52 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
>
>Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR (2)
>causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
>
>I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a smooth
>dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of
>spar). What is your take?
>
>Thanks,
>Tom
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
BTW I am not an "anal engineer." I am an electrical engineer that happens
to be "anal." Thought I'd clarify before any of you got the wrong ideas.
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are
> probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts
> through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I
> am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing
> back by close-of-business today.
>
> On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it
> > does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Tom Lutz < tommylutz@gmail.com>
> > >Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:52 PM
> > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
> > >
> > >Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment
> > OR (2)
> > >causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
> > >
> > >I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a
> > smooth
> > >dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of
> >
> > >spar). What is your take?
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are
probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts
through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I
am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing
back by close-of-business today.
On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does
> not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com>
> >Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:52 PM
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
> >
> >Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR
> (2)
> >causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
> >
> >I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a
> smooth
> >dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of
> >spar). What is your take?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Tom
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
Tom, if you decide that you need to press out the dent, you can take two
pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home
Depot, round the exterior corner of one of them. The round edge must fit
the bend radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece on the inside and the
unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze the spar between the two with
a vise or clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out with an
appropriate set of dies is always easier than spooning or hammering.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Lutz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are
probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts
through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer
that I am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should
be hearing back by close-of-business today.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
I just received a response from a ZAC engineer that looked at the photos.
He said that the dent is not a big deal, but if I am concerned about it, I
can install another doubler in that area. Of course, these are
recommendations, and each situation is unique. If you encounter a similar
situation, you are best off seeking advice specific to your situation. The
following disclaimer at the end of the ZAC e-mail I received illustrates
this pretty well:
"Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the
advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft
Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any
advise or information that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of
communication is not a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is
only offered as assistance to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held
responsible for any loss or damage as a result of our advise or information
supplied. "
As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is
from. I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to
debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD.
I plan to continue construction as-is. Adding a doubler in that location
would mean popping the dent out, which I am not sure I can do without
causing additional damage.
Tom
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> BTW I am not an "anal engineer." I am an electrical engineer that happens
> to be "anal." Thought I'd clarify before any of you got the wrong ideas.
>
> On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are
> > probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts
> > through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I
> > am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing
> > back by close-of-business today.
> >
> > On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it
> > > does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >From: Tom Lutz < tommylutz@gmail.com>
> > > >Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:52 PM
> > > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > > >Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
> > > >
> > > >Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment
> > > OR (2)
> > > >causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
> > > >
> > > >I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a
> > > smooth
> > > >dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top
> > > of
> > > >spar). What is your take?
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
That's a good thought -- I may do that. Do you know where can I get 6061-T6
aluminum to make another doubler? I'm not scratch building, so I don't have
extra laying around.
Tom
On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Tom, if you decide that you need to press out the dent, you can take two
> pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot,
> round the exterior corner of one of them. The round edge must fit the bend
> radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece on the inside and the unaltered
> piece on the outside and squeeze the spar between the two with a vise or
> clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out with an appropriate set of
> dies is always easier than spooning or hammering.
>
> Dred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2007 10:55 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
>
>
> A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are
> probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts
> through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I
> am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing
> back by close-of-business today.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
You will find it in:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com
depending on the thickness, the minimum would be in 2'X2' or 2'X4'. You will
need a bending brake unless you want to create it as a flat doubler. Post the
dimension of the doubler you are planning to make and lets see if one of us
scratch builder can send you a leftover.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Tail Done.
Miami, Florida
Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote: That's a good thought -- I may do that.
Do you know where can I get 6061-T6 aluminum to make another doubler? I'm not
scratch building, so I don't have extra laying around.
Tom
On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote: Tom, if you decide
that you need to press out the dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded
aluminum el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner
of one of them. The round edge must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use
the rounded piece on the inside and the unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze
the spar between the two with a vise or clamps to press out the dent. Pressing
dents out with an appropriate set of dies is always easier than spooning
or hammering.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Lutz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably
right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material,
it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos
over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing back by close-of-business
today.
Message 22
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Greetings Tom,
"As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is
from. I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to
debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD."
Did ZAC recommend a method for deburing holes?
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: deburing holes |
Yes. They recommended using a file, and pointed out that scuffs in the
aluminum are OK since this needs to be done for corrosion protection
application anyway.
On 3/30/07, raymondj <raymondj@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>
> Greetings Tom,
>
> "As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is
> from. I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit
> to
> debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD."
>
> Did ZAC recommend a method for deburing holes?
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
> do not archive
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: deburing holes |
When I went through the Zenith Rudder Workshop they showed me both ways.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103944#103944
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
Yep, Aircraft Spruce and Specialty online or via catalogue/phone. They
stock almost any thickness and sizes dow to 2' x 2'. You may want to
stoclk a few different thicknesses in 2' x 4' or even 4' x 4' .There is
some expense there but I have gone back to scavenge my little cache of
aluminum sheet and angles quite a few times. Just this morning I cut and
bent some 6061-T6 to make mounting brackets for my eyeball vents since
they are going under the panel rather than in it.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Lutz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
That's a good thought -- I may do that. Do you know where can I get
6061-T6 aluminum to make another doubler? I'm not scratch building, so
I don't have extra laying around.
Tom
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Wing root fairings |
Hi,
1. The question about efficiency of the forward portion of the wingroot
fairing
relative to the rear portion is difficult to answer.
My guess is that much of the improvement in
low speed behavior (minimum sink rate, stall speed, climb rate with high
payload)
comes from the rear portion, since it reduces the amount of induced drag.
The front portion reduces the extent to which the air above the wing
gets compressed by the expanding fuselage.
Thus, these are really different effects. For details,
see the paper "Finding Hidden Drag" listed on the website
http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/wing_root_fairing.html
2. If I were building an XL, I would forget about flaps altogether and
instead
would add fixed trailing edges and the wing root fairings.
This would eliminate the flap mechanism entirely.
Maybe, just maybe, somebody will make fairings for the XL, then make
molds, and
make additional fairings available to others at reasonable expense. It would
be a nice modification.
Best wishes,
Klaus
--
Klaus Truemper
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science
University of Texas at Dallas
Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and
Computer Science EC31
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2712
klaus@utdallas.edu
www.utdallas.edu/~klaus
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
yeah, but then you need to have a slight depression in the female die and a slightly
tighter radius on the male die than the part - and only at the exact location
of the dent. If not the part will never get back to nominal contour due
to springback issues. Perhaps where this is, outside of the doubler nesting footprint,
the matched angles are good enough.
Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote: Tom, if you decide that you
need to press out the dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum
el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner of one of
them. The round edge must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece
on the inside and the unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze the spar
between the two with a vise or clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out
with an appropriate set of dies is always easier than spooning or hammering.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Lutz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably right.
I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material,
it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos
over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing back by close-of-business
today.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Dual Throttles |
I've figured most of it out except for a 4 inch long piece of 1/8th x 3/4 inch
aluminum.
Can anyone tell me what that piece is used for and does anyone have some pictures
of the dual throttle kit (firewall side) installed?
Tim,
I suspect that the piece you are talking about is meant to hold the cable
from the middle of the rod across the firewall shelf down to the Bing carby.
I didn't use it. I'll send you pictures of my arrangement from home this evening.
Mine is a combination of the Zenith design, JabiruUSA's design, and some
hints from Larry Mac. Larry most likely will respond too when he reads your
post. I'm happy with the way mine turned out. I threw it into the extra parts
pile!
Jeff Davidson
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: deburing holes |
"scuffs" are indeed usually OK because they can be blended during a ScotchBrite
session. The problem with using a file for deburring is that anyone doing this
has a tendency to put gouges of some depth in the details parallel to the fastener
line. Those gouges are not very likely to cause a problem in the short
run but they are the source of massive problems over time as they are fatigue
no-no's.
Probably the best way to take care of the problem is by using VERY sharp bits,
and using them lubricated. The ever popular Boelube is one choice and what we
used at Cessna and Lear Experimental was beeswax - just warm the bit and drill
the block every so many holes. Using as many clecos as you own is also smart
as the tighter the sheared surface between the details being drilled, the better
for fit, burr generation, and everything else. The sharp bit generates cleaner
holes with less burrs to start with so you have less worrys about countersinkinghte
hoels if you do use the large drill for derurring.
If you decide to use a large drill, the 1/2" is way too big because you want
the web at the center of the bit to be 75% of the diameter of the hole being deburred
or less. For most. holes a 1/4" bit is ample; wrap the shank with a thick
build up of masking tape and it is easier to control. If you spend some time
with a magnifier and a light, you can learn to feel what is a good deburr and
what is a drill bit angled countersink. The bit used for deburring should be
very sharp as well and should be spun lightly in the fingers to remove the burr.
Stay on the hole axis, normal to the local contour at the hole location.
Deburring should remove any material standing proud of the plane of the face drilled
- dull drills deflect substantially more materrial out of plane and at
a greater diameter.
Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes. They recommended using a file, and pointed out that scuffs in the aluminum
are OK since this needs to be done for corrosion protection application anyway.
Greetings Tom,
"As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is
from. I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to
debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD."
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
Tom-- you making a mountain out of mole hill---- no big deal= do nothing, just
build the rudder. ZAC has to be careful how they word things due to the nature
of their business.
Fritz
Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
I just received a response from a ZAC engineer that looked at the photos.
He said that the dent is not a big deal, but if I am concerned about it, I can
install another doubler in that area. Of course, these are recommendations,
and each situation is unique. If you encounter a similar situation, you are best
off seeking advice specific to your situation. The following disclaimer at
the end of the ZAC e-mail I received illustrates this pretty well:
"Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the advice/information
provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft Company does
not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any advise or information
that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of communication is not
a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is only offered as assistance
to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held responsible for any loss or
damage as a result of our advise or information supplied. "
As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is from.
I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to debur
holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD.
I plan to continue construction as-is. Adding a doubler in that location would
mean popping the dent out, which I am not sure I can do without causing additional
damage.
Tom
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote: BTW I am not an "anal engineer."
I am an electrical engineer that happens to be "anal." Thought I'd clarify
before any of you got the wrong ideas.
On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote: A preliminary response from
a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably right. I was told that unless
it is a deep scratch or it busts through the material, it is most likely
OK. Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos over for a more thorough
evaluation. I should be hearing back by close-of-business today.
if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it does not look
bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Lutz < tommylutz@gmail.com>
>Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:52 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
>
>Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon shipment OR (2)
>causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
>
>I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is a smooth
>dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from top of
>spar). What is your take?
>
>Thanks,
---------------------------------
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
I don't know where you are located but if you stop by with the part I will either
fix it or remake it for you.
How about that?
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103985#103985
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: deburing holes |
I use a vixen file that has been prepared for this type of work. Lightly radius
the length and ends. That helps prevent the gouging. Also a light touch helps
when using the vixen file.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103987#103987
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
dont bother, just build the rudder, by what I see it has not bent the spar, just
a ding, the spar just needs to be straight. other than that just build.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Mar 30, 2007 1:28 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
>
>You will find it in:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com
> depending on the thickness, the minimum would be in 2'X2' or 2'X4'. You will
need a bending brake unless you want to create it as a flat doubler. Post the
dimension of the doubler you are planning to make and lets see if one of us
scratch builder can send you a leftover.
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Tail Done.
> Miami, Florida
>
>Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote: That's a good thought -- I may do that.
Do you know where can I get 6061-T6 aluminum to make another doubler? I'm
not scratch building, so I don't have extra laying around.
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote: Tom, if you decide
that you need to press out the dent, you can take two pieces of 1/8" extruded
aluminum el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot, round the exterior corner
of one of them. The round edge must fit the bend radius of the spar. Use
the rounded piece on the inside and the unaltered piece on the outside and squeeze
the spar between the two with a vise or clamps to press out the dent.
Pressing dents out with an appropriate set of dies is always easier than spooning
or hammering.
>
> Dred
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Lutz
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
>
>
>A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are probably
right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts through the
material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I am, I sent photos
over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing back by close-of-business
today.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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All-
Thanks for your input.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
Ed,
Thanks a lot for the advice. I used the technique you described and came
out with exceptional results, with the exception of ever-so-slight remaining
deformation due to the factors Dave Downey described in a previous e-mail
(elastic deformation -- the dent bounced back a little bit). If I didn't
put a big red circle in this picture, would you be able to tell?
Tom
On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Tom, if you decide that you need to press out the dent, you can take two
> pieces of 1/8" extruded aluminum el cheapo angle from Lowes or Home Depot,
> round the exterior corner of one of them. The round edge must fit the bend
> radius of the spar. Use the rounded piece on the inside and the unaltered
> piece on the outside and squeeze the spar between the two with a vise or
> clamps to press out the dent. Pressing dents out with an appropriate set of
> dies is always easier than spooning or hammering.
>
> Dred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2007 10:55 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
>
> A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are
> probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts
> through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that I
> am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing
> back by close-of-business today.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent, no big deal |
Fritz,
I appreciate the point of view you and Juan hold, as well as the other views
that have been presented to me. As a first time aircraft builder and a
person who has experience with unrelated mission critical hardware, it is in
my character to question minute defects and pursue them to the fullest
extent that I can until a resolution is found. I can have no question that
the structural integrity of the airplane I am building is 100%.
That being said, I realize this was a small defect, and that it was probably
not a problem, but I wanted a answers from several independent sources
before I drew any conclusions. Hind-sight is 20/20, and guess what? You
guys are the ones with hind-sight, not me!
THANK YOU ALL for responding to my seemingly worthless question. As a first
time builder, it means a lot. So far I have been thoroughly impressed with
the support of both ZAC and this online community.
I've decided, after pressing out the small dent, to finish the rudder
without adding an additional doubler.
Cheers,
Tom
On 3/30/07, Big Gee <taffy0687@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Tom-- you making a mountain out of mole hill---- no big deal= do nothing,
> just build the rudder. ZAC has to be careful how they word things due to
> the nature of their business.
>
> Fritz
>
> *Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I just received a response from a ZAC engineer that looked at the photos.
> He said that the dent is not a big deal, but if I am concerned about it, I
> can install another doubler in that area. Of course, these are
> recommendations, and each situation is unique. If you encounter a similar
> situation, you are best off seeking advice specific to your situation. The
> following disclaimer at the end of the ZAC e-mail I received illustrates
> this pretty well:
>
> "Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the
> advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft
> Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any
> advise or information that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of
> communication is not a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is
> only offered as assistance to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held
> responsible for any loss or damage as a result of our advise or information
> supplied. "
>
> As always, take advice with a grain of salt, no matter what source it is
> from. I also learned that ZAC does NOT recommend using a 1/2" drill bit to
> debur holes, as is presented in the metalworking 101 DVD.
>
> I plan to continue construction as-is. Adding a doubler in that location
> would mean popping the dent out, which I am not sure I can do without
> causing additional damage.
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > BTW I am not an "anal engineer." I am an electrical engineer that
> > happens to be "anal." Thought I'd clarify before any of you got the wrong
> > ideas.
> >
> > On 3/30/07, Tom Lutz <tommylutz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > A preliminary response from a Zenith engineer indicated that you are
> > > probably right. I was told that unless it is a deep scratch or it busts
> > > through the material, it is most likely OK. Being the anal engineer that
I
> > > am, I sent photos over for a more thorough evaluation. I should be hearing
> > > back by close-of-business today.
> > >
> > > On 3/30/07, Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > if this is the main rudder spar, its kind of hazzy, just build it it
> > > > does not look bad, the rudder is so over built a ding is nominal.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Tom Lutz < tommylutz@gmail.com>
> > > > >Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:52 PM
> > > > >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > > > >Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Spar Dent
> > > > >
> > > > >Grrrr....mad at myself for either (1) not noticing this upon
> > > > shipment OR (2)
> > > > >causing it myself somehow, unknowingly.
> > > > >
> > > > >I plan on contacting ZAC tomorrow to show them the pictures. It is
> > > > a smooth
> > > > >dent, about 4mm in width. I don't like where it is (~220mm from
> > > > top of
> > > >
> > > > *
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *
> > > >
> > > >
Message 37
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| Subject: | cowling dimensions? |
Does anyone have one of the WW Zodiac nosebowls where they can readily measure
it?
I need to know the maximum width and maximum height dimensions referencing the
spinner face centerline (13" Van's spinner?). Also, how far forward of the zodiac
firewall at the upper mounting points is the trailing edge of the bowl where
these dimensions were determined? Approximate dimensions within 1/4" are
adequate for my use.
Thank you.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
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Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
I couldn't see it with the big red circle. As others told you, it was no
big deal but I could tell that it was bugging you as it would have
bugged me. You made an excellent fix without going overboard at all.
True, some other guy's plane will fly just fine and nobody will know
whether or not he straightened out his dings. So what? You know you took
time to do it to your satisfaction. Cool huh?
Looky what I did today.... farted around for almost four hours to do
Naca scoops and eyeball vent mounts
Dred
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Spar Dent |
Sweet... nice job!
On 3/30/07, Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
>
> I couldn't see it *with* the big red circle. As others told you, it was
> no big deal but I could tell that it was bugging you as it would have bugged
> me. You made an excellent fix without going overboard at all. True, some
> other guy's plane will fly just fine and nobody will know whether or not
> he straightened out his dings. So what? You know you took time to do it to
> your satisfaction. Cool huh?
>
> Looky what I did today.... farted around for almost four hours to do Naca
> scoops and eyeball vent mounts
>
> Dred
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | a picture for today |
Salut Carlos,
Good job. La chose importante est de toujours aller de l=92avant et de
ne
jamais s=92arr=EAter.
Christian
A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan
http://www.zodiac640.com/
_____
De : owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carlos Sa
Envoy=E9 : Sunday, March 25, 2007 11:50 AM
=C0 : zenith-list@matronics.com
Objet : Zenith-List: a picture for today
Hello, all
Consistent with my average building speed, attached is the result of ~3
months of work (late December to early March): right wing tip done - no
fibreglass. Well, not actually done, it still needs to be primed and
riveted.
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Montreal, Canada
I dare anybody to build slower than I do !
do not archive
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Cessna Aerobat (was: Apology) |
I thought the aerobat also had only a 31ft span instead of a 33ft span.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104039#104039
Message 42
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| Subject: | Another forced landing |
I was flying up to Midland from Ray airport yesterday (57D to 3BS)
but just short of Frankenmouth, the engine suddenly started running
rough and lost 500 RPM. My first thought was "Oh no, not again." I
was in contact with Saginaw approach at the time for VFR flight
following so I told them I had engine trouble and was going to land
at Zehnder field (66G), which by this time was almost directly below
me. I made a safe landing on the turf strip and parked the plane.
I didn't have any tools with me so I called my dad in Midland and
told him to bring some tools and come get me. After he arrived we
spent about an hour troubleshooting the engine. The first thing I
noticed is that the plug in the #1 cylinder came out wet with fuel,
like it hadn't been firing. Then we checked for spark on that wire
and determined that it was good. Then we checked for compression by
turning over the prop while holding my fingers over the plug holes. I
noticed that the compression on #1 seemed low. Then I did what I
should have done in the first place and removed the valve rocker
cover. That's when I found one of the push rods for #1 laying loose
in the head. Then I saw that the snap ring that held the rockers in
place had broken and allowed the rocker to move sideways until the
push rod dropped out of its socket in the rocker. I found pieces of
the broken snap ring in the valve cover along with one of the shim
washers and pieces of two spring washers that had also disintegrated.
The shim washer was damaged on one side where it had ground against
the broken snap ring.
We spent the next few hours driving around Bay City looking for
parts. Try finding internal parts for a 1986 Subaru engine at an auto
parts store. The Subaru dealer said they could get the parts but it
would take a week. We finally gave up for the day and I borrowed a
car to drive home. I called Ron at Ram Performance the next day and
he said he could mail out the parts right away but on a Friday that
meant the parts probably wouldn't get to me until at least Monday. I
didn't want to leave the plane tied down 60 miles from home over the
weekend, so I started driving around looking for enough of the parts
to at least jury rig the engine for the trip back to my home field. I
finally found someone who had the snap rings.
I drove back up to Frankenmouth to work on the plane. I put the
damaged shim washer back on with undamaged side facing the snap ring
and wrapped some safety wire around the rocker shaft where the spring
washers had been just to take up some of the slop. I put it all back
together and fired it up. It ran as smooth as it normally did. I took
it up for a trip around the pattern and it seemed to run just fine.
Then I returned the car to Midland and we drove back down so I could
fly the plane home. The flight back to Ray was uneventful. Now I just
have to wait for the parts from RAM so I can make a permanent repair.
At least I don't need a new engine like the last time.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB Final Report Available |
This is plausible. The only problem here is that this was built from a kit, correct,
unless the builder replaced something.
I was watching a video the other day of the stress test of a 777s wings. They had
it up to 1.5 times design max load before the rivets along the top of the wing
ripped out. The engineers said this was the expected mode of failure and were
glad it reach 1.5 times max design. Possibly the rivets pulled out of the
spar caps for some reason. If it was a kit though, the spar would have been built
by Zenith. Maybe this guy had one of those pre-drilled skins, and the skin
didn't match up with the ribs correctly and consequently his edge distances sucked,
but he went ahead with it anyway and the wing failed due to poor construction
practices due to going ahead with misaligned pre-drilled holes and rib
center lines? That's the most likely explanation if it was build from a kit. That
or he used Home Depot pop-rivets instead of aircraft grade pulled rivets.
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> Terry,
> The thing I see so often and would question, is whether the cap angles
> were of the correct material. Too often people ask if the spar cap angles
> can be bought from local sources like Farm & Fleet. The fact that the
> wing is considerably thinner and that so many have questioned the
> material for this particular part of construction suggests that perhaps
> the builder(s) may have made a seriously bad assumption. I'd doubt FAA
> investigators would even check material type and strength.
>
> Simple adherence to material and bolt call outs would not get you to
> failure of a spar structure with any of the excess weights below.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> Terry Phillips wrote:
>
> > Lots of things of interest here.
> >
> > * 1st, the probable cause, structural failure of the wings for
> > undetermined reasons, is troubling. But, the fire damage to the
> > aluminum structure destroyed any evidence that might have told
> > why the collapse occurred.
> > * 2nd, with an estimated takeoff weight of 1326 lbs, the aircraft
> > was 26 lbs over the stated gross of 1300 lbs. The gross
> > currently listed for 601XL's on the Zenith website is 1320 lbs.
> > * 3rd, this may have been the first flight of the airplane with
> > two persons on board. If so, the extra 200 lb load may have been
> > enough to collapse the wings.
> > * 4th, it is not clear whether the builder, Mr. Hooker, flew the
> > airplane beyond the 40 hr. requirement. The total hours on the
> > airframe is not given.
> > * 5th, while it is not explicitly stated, it appears that this
> > aircraft was built from a kit, not from plans. That should
> > remove the possibility that the wing spars were poorly
> > constructed by the builder. It does not preclude damage to the
> > spars during or prior to construction.
> > * 6th, I find no mention in the report of the use of "hardware
> > store" bolts in the spars which has been suggested in some posts
> > to this group or of loose bolts.
> > * 7th, the empty weight of the aircraft is given as 754.5 lbs
> > which is about 60 lbs greater than the 695 lbs listed for the
> > 601/Jab 3300 on the Zenith website. It would be enlightening to
> > know where the 60 lbs comes from. The dual brakes are one item.
> > My conclusion is that we should be very rigorous in evaluating
> > the weight/benefit ratio of anything we add to the basic
> > airframe. I'm curious what empty weights others builders have
> > ended up with.
> > * 8th, the reports gives the unusable fuel as 3 gal. I know I've
> > seen that number before, but I cannot seem to find it in the
> > information I have. A useful fuel load of 21 gal vs. 24 gal
> > makes me wish I had opted for the 30 gal tanks.
> > * 9th, the elongated rivet holes probably resulted from the forces
> > of impact. However, if they were a construction defect, is it
> > possible that they could have weakened the wing structure?
> >
> > In summary, lots of information here, but it would have been great if
> > they had identified the cause of the wing failure. Then we could make
> > sure that, at least, we try to correct any obvious shortcomings in the
> > design.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104041#104041
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Another forced landing |
Brian,
Thankfully everything worked out. How many hours do you have on the engine?
Did this come directly from Ram?
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 3/31/2007 12:01:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
I was flying up to Midland from Ray airport yesterday (57D to 3BS)
but just short of Frankenmouth, the engine suddenly started running
rough and lost 500 RPM. My first thought was "Oh no, not again." I
was in contact with Saginaw approach at the time for VFR flight
following so I told them I had engine trouble and was going to land
at Zehnder field (66G), which by this time was almost directly below
me. I made a safe landing on the turf strip and parked the plane.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Another forced landing |
I have about 45 hours on this engine. It came directly from RAM.
On Mar 31, 2007, at 12:50 AM, NYTerminat@aol.com wrote:
> Brian,
>
> Thankfully everything worked out. How many hours do you have on the
> engine? Did this come directly from Ram?
>
> Bob Spudis
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB Final Report Available |
Here is Mark Townsend's comment of the accident back in Oct. He had me
convinced back then that there was a bolt missing on the rear spar. However
the NTSB reports says nothing of this.
Yes there has been some speculation as to that crash and the fact that bolts
were purchased just before the flight from Home depot ( not confirmed). What
is confirmed is that the owner neglected to install nuts on the rear spar
bolts(confirmed) The bolts were thought to have departed the spar well into
the flight and the adding of flaps was what folded the wing . It is as we
suspected and talked about. Is there a lesson to be learned from this, No
you already should have learned to pre-flight your plane and if you remove
any structure you double check everything then have someone else check it. I
feel bad for the pilot and families sometimes it is hard to calm the
eagerness before a flight.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org>
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB Final Report Available
>
> This is plausible. The only problem here is that this was built from a
> kit, correct, unless the builder replaced something.
>
> I was watching a video the other day of the stress test of a 777s wings.
> They had it up to 1.5 times design max load before the rivets along the
> top of the wing ripped out. The engineers said this was the expected mode
> of failure and were glad it reach 1.5 times max design. Possibly the
> rivets pulled out of the spar caps for some reason. If it was a kit
> though, the spar would have been built by Zenith. Maybe this guy had one
> of those pre-drilled skins, and the skin didn't match up with the ribs
> correctly and consequently his edge distances sucked, but he went ahead
> with it anyway and the wing failed due to poor construction practices due
> to going ahead with misaligned pre-drilled holes and rib center lines?
> That's the most likely explanation if it was build from a kit. That or he
> used Home Depot pop-rivets instead of aircraft grade pulled rivets.
>
>
> larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
>> Terry,
>> The thing I see so often and would question, is whether the cap angles
>> were of the correct material. Too often people ask if the spar cap
>> angles
>> can be bought from local sources like Farm & Fleet. The fact that the
>> wing is considerably thinner and that so many have questioned the
>> material for this particular part of construction suggests that perhaps
>> the builder(s) may have made a seriously bad assumption. I'd doubt FAA
>> investigators would even check material type and strength.
>>
>> Simple adherence to material and bolt call outs would not get you to
>> failure of a spar structure with any of the excess weights below.
>>
>> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>> do not archive
>>
>> Terry Phillips wrote:
>>
>> > Lots of things of interest here.
>> >
>> > * 1st, the probable cause, structural failure of the wings for
>> > undetermined reasons, is troubling. But, the fire damage to the
>> > aluminum structure destroyed any evidence that might have told
>> > why the collapse occurred.
>> > * 2nd, with an estimated takeoff weight of 1326 lbs, the aircraft
>> > was 26 lbs over the stated gross of 1300 lbs. The gross
>> > currently listed for 601XL's on the Zenith website is 1320 lbs.
>> > * 3rd, this may have been the first flight of the airplane with
>> > two persons on board. If so, the extra 200 lb load may have been
>> > enough to collapse the wings.
>> > * 4th, it is not clear whether the builder, Mr. Hooker, flew the
>> > airplane beyond the 40 hr. requirement. The total hours on the
>> > airframe is not given.
>> > * 5th, while it is not explicitly stated, it appears that this
>> > aircraft was built from a kit, not from plans. That should
>> > remove the possibility that the wing spars were poorly
>> > constructed by the builder. It does not preclude damage to the
>> > spars during or prior to construction.
>> > * 6th, I find no mention in the report of the use of "hardware
>> > store" bolts in the spars which has been suggested in some posts
>> > to this group or of loose bolts.
>> > * 7th, the empty weight of the aircraft is given as 754.5 lbs
>> > which is about 60 lbs greater than the 695 lbs listed for the
>> > 601/Jab 3300 on the Zenith website. It would be enlightening to
>> > know where the 60 lbs comes from. The dual brakes are one item.
>> > My conclusion is that we should be very rigorous in evaluating
>> > the weight/benefit ratio of anything we add to the basic
>> > airframe. I'm curious what empty weights others builders have
>> > ended up with.
>> > * 8th, the reports gives the unusable fuel as 3 gal. I know I've
>> > seen that number before, but I cannot seem to find it in the
>> > information I have. A useful fuel load of 21 gal vs. 24 gal
>> > makes me wish I had opted for the 30 gal tanks.
>> > * 9th, the elongated rivet holes probably resulted from the forces
>> > of impact. However, if they were a construction defect, is it
>> > possible that they could have weakened the wing structure?
>> >
>> > In summary, lots of information here, but it would have been great if
>> > they had identified the cause of the wing failure. Then we could make
>> > sure that, at least, we try to correct any obvious shortcomings in the
>> > design.
>> >
>> > Terry
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=104041#104041
>
>
>
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