---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/14/07: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Re: Arrgh!!! (Phil Maxson) 2. 07:22 AM - Re: Arrgh!!! (Bill Naumuk) 3. 08:34 AM - Re: Arrgh!!! (Jeff) 4. 08:34 AM - "new" 701 kit (LouB) 5. 08:49 AM - fuel system suggestions (601corvair) 6. 09:12 AM - Re: fuel system suggestions (Gary Boothe) 7. 09:24 AM - Corvair firewall- bolt length (Bill Naumuk) 8. 09:41 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Products (Milburn Reed) 9. 09:52 AM - Re: Corvair firewall- bolt length (Jaybannist@cs.com) 10. 10:15 AM - Re: Corvair firewall- bolt length (Craig Payne) 11. 10:21 AM - Re: "new" 701 kit (John Marzulli) 12. 11:05 AM - Re: fuel system suggestions (Bryan Martin) 13. 11:42 AM - Re: Corvair firewall- bolt length (Bill Naumuk) 14. 11:50 AM - Re: fuel system suggestions (LarryMcFarland) 15. 12:16 PM - Re: Corvair firewall- bolt length (Jaybannist@cs.com) 16. 02:07 PM - Re: Corvair firewall- bolt length (Bill Naumuk) 17. 04:20 PM - NACA Scoop in cowl (Tim Juhl) 18. 04:48 PM - Re: NACA Scoop in cowl (Jaybannist@cs.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:45 AM PST US From: Phil Maxson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! I made my decision to use a Corvair long after mounting my firewall with no problems. The only change is you need a longer bolt on the engine mounts compared to the one Zenith specifies and provides with the kit. I just unb olted my four mount points, cut the tack welds for the AN bolts and had a w elder tack in four longer ones. I use the William Wynne engine mount and h e can tell you the bolt lengths (or just measure them when you get the engi ne mount). I am assuming the same would be true for the HDS.Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey From: naumuk@alltel.netTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: Zenith-List: A rrgh!!!Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:28:53 -0400 All- I must be the lousiest writer in the world, because all I've been tryin g to find out is, CAN I ASSEMBLE ALL THE PIECES OF THE FIREWALL TO PLANS AN D MOUNT A CORVAIR WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE ANYTHING LATER!! Thanks. Bill NaumukHDS Fuse/CorvairTownville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: I'll rephrase the question Corvair people- Can I lay out and attach the braces per plans to the firewall and insta ll the Corvair mount with no hassle, or will I have to move some of the bra ces down the line? To drill or not to drill... Bill NaumukHDS Fuse/CorvairTownville, Pa href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _________________________________________________________________ i'm making a difference.-Make every IM count for the cause of your choice . Join Now. im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=wlmailtagline ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:34 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! Phil- The HDS firewall plans were set up for a Rotax 912. Is the XL the same? I mean, were you able to lay everything out including the firewall holes for the engine mount and the only difference was the length of the mount bolts? That would be a real bonus. I haven't drilled the mount attachment holes- figured I'd wait until I got the mount and drill to fit. I couldn't find any firewall bolt pattern information in either the Corvair manual or on the WW website. Thanks for the info. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Maxson To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:45 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! I made my decision to use a Corvair long after mounting my firewall with no problems. The only change is you need a longer bolt on the engine mounts compared to the one Zenith specifies and provides with the kit. I just unbolted my four mount points, cut the tack welds for the AN bolts and had a welder tack in four longer ones. I use the William Wynne engine mount and he can tell you the bolt lengths (or just measure them when you get the engine mount). I am assuming the same would be true for the HDS. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: naumuk@alltel.net To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:28:53 -0400 All- I must be the lousiest writer in the world, because all I've been trying to find out is, CAN I ASSEMBLE ALL THE PIECES OF THE FIREWALL TO PLANS AND MOUNT A CORVAIR WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE ANYTHING LATER!! Thanks. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: I'll rephrase the question Corvair people- Can I lay out and attach the braces per plans to the firewall and install the Corvair mount with no hassle, or will I have to move some of the braces down the line? To drill or not to drill... Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- i'm making a difference. Make e/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messe nger/im/home/?source=wlmailtagline' target='_new'>Join Now. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:52 AM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! I'm using the JabiruUSA mount for the 3300 on mine. I also have a 912 mount that came off a flying 601. I asked Nick this question too. It is probably in the archives. His answer was to go ahead and drill it per plans so I could build the fueslage. He had the ZAC supplied mounts in mind, of course. I did drill the holes then and it worked out fine for the JabiruUSA mount years later when I bought my engine and FWF. Even though the JabiruUSA mount needed to be even more accurate than the 912 mount, it was. Accurate placement of the holes in the firewall is the key. The 912 mount has a plate at each corner that allows the builder to define the exact location of the holes in the mount too. No problems. Jeff Davidson Do not archive _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Maxson Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:46 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! I made my decision to use a Corvair long after mounting my firewall with no problems. The only change is you need a longer bolt on the engine mounts compared to the one Zenith specifies and provides with the kit. I just unbolted my four mount points, cut the tack welds for the AN bolts and had a welder tack in four longer ones. I use the William Wynne engine mount and he can tell you the bolt lengths (or just measure them when you get the engine mount). I am assuming the same would be true for the HDS. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey _____ From: naumuk@alltel.net Subject: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! All- I must be the lousiest writer in the world, because all I've been trying to find out is, CAN I ASSEMBLE ALL THE PIECES OF THE FIREWALL TO PLANS AND MOUNT A CORVAIR WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE ANYTHING LATER!! Thanks. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: I'll rephrase the question Corvair people- Can I lay out and attach the braces per plans to the firewall and install the Corvair mount with no hassle, or will I have to move some of the braces down the line? To drill or not to drill... Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com _____ i'm making a difference. Make e/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/ im/home/?source=wlmailtagline' target='_new'>Join Now. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: "new" 701 kit From: "LouB" Does anyone have any experience with the "new" standard STOL CH 701 kit now includes many CNC pre-cut and pre-drilled skins and components. How extensive is the pre-drilling. Are the assembly manuals improved. I notice the the build times have been reduced. Will the Zenith 701 ever get to the RV12's matched hole construction level. Also, has anyone looked into the CH701 Quick Build Kit for Flight Crafters in FA. Where is it quick built (CZ or the Philippines or locally). I'm just ploting and planning so I don't want to bother them ... but I wonder about the price of the Quick Build option. Thanks, Lou Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106878#106878 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:22 AM PST US From: 601corvair Subject: Zenith-List: fuel system suggestions Ok guys I have a questions for the group about fuel systems that my EAA technical advisor (TA) asked us. First some background. Our advisor has built and flown behind many aircraft. He has restored several classic aircraft, is a retired airline captain and currently spends his days flying corporate and running an airport. He is the kind of guy who has, or will, fly behind everything he suggests.. Our project is a Zenith 601 HDS that has 2 ten gallon leading edge wing tanks. It currently calls for a plain vanilla corvair engine and an MA3 carb. TA has warmed to the idea of Corvair, although he is not crazy about it. He has helped people in the past with other auto-conversion and was helpful, but not overly enthusiastic. All that being said, here is the issue. During a conversation on fuel system design we showed him the William Wynne (www.flycorvair.com) design for the Zenith XL, using the 2 in series electrical pumps and no mechanical pump. He recommended against it on the principle that we had placed all our eggs in the one basket, that being the electrical system. His suggestion was to use one electrical pump and the corvair mechanical pump and fly it like a Cherokee using the electrical pump as a boost pump and only during take off and landing. Alternatively, he suggested a header tank, pumping fuel to the header and gravity feeding the carb. This would probably require a return line to the wing tank. We discussed this for sometime and then he asked me this. Could I name a certificated aircraft, low wing, that only had one type of pump to move fuel to the carb? If not, why did I think that was? Interesting question as the FAA guys fly behind lots of airplanes. I would be interested in any help or suggestion I can get with fuel systems, especially flying airplanes and their different fuel systems. Thanks phill --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:19 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel system suggestions Phill, I would never question the wisdom of a TA, but not all TA's look at things the same. Yours suggests the wisdom of a complicated fuel delivery system which exceeds the design of the manufacturer. That's your choice. There is a common feeling that simplicity is the best answer. The most simple fuel delivery is with a header tank, gravity feeding to the carb. The classic Taylorcraft BC12-D had two 6 gallon wing tanks that gravity fed into the 12 gallon header tank. When the header tank got low you open the valve and drain from a wing tank. When the header tank was full, you closed the valve. The 601 HDS is similar as it is designed to use either an 8 or 18 gallon header tank. The only difference, obviously, is that you need the fuel pumps to deliver to it. Most 601 drivers that have planes with header tanks feel that the header tank is the only insurance they need to get to a safe place if the fuel pumps fail. The key factor being: Keep your header tank full. The MA3 carb likes gravity pressure best. This is described in length by William Wynne. I am hoping that you plan on using a header tank. Whatever means of delivering to that tank is up to you. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 601corvair Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:49 AM Subject: Zenith-List: fuel system suggestions Ok guys I have a questions for the group about fuel systems that my EAA technical advisor (TA) asked us. First some background. Our advisor has built and flown behind many aircraft. He has restored several classic aircraft, is a retired airline captain and currently spends his days flying corporate and running an airport. He is the kind of guy who has, or will, fly behind everything he suggests.. Our project is a Zenith 601 HDS that has 2 ten gallon leading edge wing tanks. It currently calls for a plain vanilla corvair engine and an MA3 carb. TA has warmed to the idea of Corvair, although he is not crazy about it. He has helped people in the past with other auto-conversion and was helpful, but not overly enthusiastic. All that being said, here is the issue. During a conversation on fuel system design we showed him the William Wynne (www.flycorvair.com) design for the Zenith XL, using the 2 in series electrical pumps and no mechanical pump. He recommended against it on the principle that we had placed all our eggs in the one basket, that being the electrical system. His suggestion was to use one electrical pump and the corvair mechanical pump and fly it like a Cherokee using the electrical pump as a boost pump and only during take off and landing. Alternatively, he suggested a header tank, pumping fuel to the header and gravity feeding the carb. This would probably require a return line to the wing tank. We discussed this for sometime and then he asked me this. Could I name a certificated aircraft, low wing, that only had one type of pump to move fuel to the carb? If not, why did I think that was? Interesting question as the FAA guys "fly behind" lots of airplanes. I would be interested in any help or suggestion I can get with fuel systems, especially flying airplanes and their different fuel systems. Thanks phill _____ Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:55 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length Jeff and all- Wow, this has been like a newspaper treasure hunt! Are HD/HDS and XL plans mount locations the same? Yes. According to the archives, the XL O-235 layout will also work for Rotax and Jabiru mounts on all 601s. But what about Corvair mounts? According to Phil Maxson, he drilled per plans for the O-235 and everything worked for his Corvair installation but for longer bolts. Now, all I need is to know is the bolt specs so I can give ACS some more money and I'm in business. I'm sure you can imagine how hard it is to hold back progress until you make sure you won't have to rework the whole front end of your project down the line. Education via the school of hard knocks. Anyone out there have the Corvair mount bolt specs? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! I'm using the JabiruUSA mount for the 3300 on mine. I also have a 912 mount that came off a flying 601. I asked Nick this question too. It is probably in the archives. His answer was to go ahead and drill it per plans so I could build the fueslage. He had the ZAC supplied mounts in mind, of course. I did drill the holes then and it worked out fine for the JabiruUSA mount years later when I bought my engine and FWF. Even though the JabiruUSA mount needed to be even more accurate than the 912 mount, it was. Accurate placement of the holes in the firewall is the key. The 912 mount has a plate at each corner that allows the builder to define the exact location of the holes in the mount too. No problems. Jeff Davidson Do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Maxson Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:46 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! I made my decision to use a Corvair long after mounting my firewall with no problems. The only change is you need a longer bolt on the engine mounts compared to the one Zenith specifies and provides with the kit. I just unbolted my four mount points, cut the tack welds for the AN bolts and had a welder tack in four longer ones. I use the William Wynne engine mount and he can tell you the bolt lengths (or just measure them when you get the engine mount). I am assuming the same would be true for the HDS. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: naumuk@alltel.net To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:28:53 -0400 All- I must be the lousiest writer in the world, because all I've been trying to find out is, CAN I ASSEMBLE ALL THE PIECES OF THE FIREWALL TO PLANS AND MOUNT A CORVAIR WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE ANYTHING LATER!! Thanks. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:00 PM Subject: Zenith-List: I'll rephrase the question Corvair people- Can I lay out and attach the braces per plans to the firewall and install the Corvair mount with no hassle, or will I have to move some of the braces down the line? To drill or not to drill... Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listp://forums.m atronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- i'm making a difference. Make e/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messe nger/im/home/?source=wlmailtagline' target='_new'>Join Now. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:24 AM PST US From: "Milburn Reed" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Products My Craftsman 2HP compressor I bought in 1970 is still in my farm shop and never has missed a lick. When I converted our family room to aircraft factory I bought a cheepo HF compressor. 2 HP I think. From the start it would kick off and I would have to go out and push the reset after cooling. In a fit of anger I took off the cover and bypassed the reset and said what the heck let it burn up and I'll then buy a new one. That was over a year ago and it has been working good. I think the cooling fan and system with the cover on ( unlike aircraft engines) is funky! It is the next best thing to tossing it out. I use HF "dremal", air shears as well as an air gun to blow out my work room so it runs for long periods. I use a 30 gal tank (old water system pressure tank). ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:08 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length Bill, According to WW, you will need 4 AN6-23A bolts, 4 AN363-624 nuts and 4 AN960-616 washers. This information is in the WW 601 installation manual. Jay in Dallas do not archive "Bill Naumuk" wrote: >Jeff and all- > Wow, this has been like a newspaper treasure hunt! > Are HD/HDS and XL plans mount locations the same? Yes. According to the archives, the XL O-235 layout will also work for Rotax and Jabiru mounts on all 601s. But what about Corvair mounts? > According to Phil Maxson, he drilled per plans for the O-235 and everything worked for his Corvair installation but for longer bolts. > Now, all I need is to know is the bolt specs so I can give ACS some more money and I'm in business. > I'm sure you can imagine how hard it is to hold back progress until you make sure you won't have to rework the whole front end of your project down the line. Education via the school of hard knocks. > Anyone out there have the Corvair mount bolt specs? >Bill Naumuk >HDS Fuse/Corvair >Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:34 AM > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! > > > I'm using the JabiruUSA mount for the 3300 on mine. I also have a 912 mount that came off a flying 601. I asked Nick this question too. It is probably in the archives. His answer was to go ahead and drill it per plans so I could build the fueslage. He had the ZAC supplied mounts in mind, of course. I did drill the holes then and it worked out fine for the JabiruUSA mount years later when I bought my engine and FWF. Even though the JabiruUSA mount needed to be even more accurate than the 912 mount, it was. Accurate placement of the holes in the firewall is the key. The 912 mount has a plate at each corner that allows the builder to define the exact location of the holes in the mount too. No problems. > > > Jeff Davidson > > Do not archive > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Maxson > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:46 AM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! > > > I made my decision to use a Corvair long after mounting my firewall with no problems. The only change is you need a longer bolt on the engine mounts compared to the one Zenith specifies and provides with the kit. I just unbolted my four mount points, cut the tack welds for the AN bolts and had a welder tack in four longer ones. I use the William Wynne engine mount and he can tell you the bolt lengths (or just measure them when you get the engine mount). > > I am assuming the same would be true for the HDS. > > Phil Maxson > 601XL/Corvair > Northwest New Jersey > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: naumuk@alltel.net > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:28:53 -0400 > > All- > > I must be the lousiest writer in the world, because all I've been trying to find out is, CAN I ASSEMBLE ALL THE PIECES OF THE FIREWALL TO PLANS AND MOUNT A CORVAIR WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE ANYTHING LATER!! > > Thanks. > > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bill Naumuk > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:00 PM > > Subject: Zenith-List: I'll rephrase the question > > > Corvair people- > > Can I lay out and attach the braces per plans to the firewall and install the Corvair mount with no hassle, or will I have to move some of the braces down the line? To drill or not to drill... > > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listp://forums.matronics.com > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > i'm making a difference. Make e/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=wlmailtagline' target='_new'>Join Now. > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:11 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length The spool thickness on the Wynne motor mounts are the same as the spools on the motor mounts shown on the Zenith plans for the Lycoming O-235 mount on 6-YE-2. I know because I measure the spools on my WW mount. From base to top the length is 38 mm. Repeating the quote from an e-mail from Nick he recommended: "In the latest edition, we no longer weld the bolt to the engine mount fitting. For the lower engine mount fittings, installing the bolt after the fitting is installed to the fuselage allows for better alignment. For a 38mm long bushing, allow approximately 3mm to go through the fitting, the doubler and firewall = 41mm A better bolt to use is an AN6-22A (grip length = 1-11/16")" -- Craig ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:27 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: "new" 701 kit I have been buying the 701 sub kit by sub kit, and have noticed more and more pre-drilling. The skins for my wings and flaperons were all pre-drilled. The skins for my tail kit ( bought a year ago ) were not. With the RV kits even the ribs come pre-driled and ready to cleco. When you talk about the RV quickbuild kits the wings are almost complete with only one skin per wing not fully riveted. Good luck and DO NOT ARCHIVE On 4/14/07, LouB wrote: > > > Does anyone have any experience with the "new" standard STOL CH 701 kit > now includes many CNC pre-cut and pre-drilled skins and components. How > extensive is the pre-drilling. Are the assembly manuals improved. > > I notice the the build times have been reduced. Will the Zenith 701 ever > get to the RV12's matched hole construction level. > > Also, has anyone looked into the CH701 Quick Build Kit for Flight Crafters > in FA. Where is it quick built (CZ or the Philippines or locally). I'm > just ploting and planning so I don't want to bother them ... but I wonder > about the price of the Quick Build option. > > Thanks, > Lou > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106878#106878 > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:39 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel system suggestions Certificated aircraft use magneto ignition systems that don't rely on the electrical system to operate. With a mechanical pump, these engines can continue run if the entire electrical system fails. That's why they have mechanical pumps. They have electric pumps to push the air out of the lines and get fuel to the mechanical pump and carb to allow the engine to start and continue to run in the nose high attitude during climb. I assume you have an automotive type ignition system that relies on electrical power to drive it. In that case, it doesn't matter that both of your pumps are electric. If you lose the electrical system, and that's about the only way you could lose both pumps, you are a glider pilot anyway. Electric fuel pumps are more reliable than mechanical pumps. With electric pumps, you can locate them so that you are always pushing fuel up to the engine. Mechanical pumps must be mounted to the engine where they will be sucking fuel up to the engine from the low-wing mounted tanks. If you can avoid drawing a vacuum on the fuel lines, you have a very low risk for vapor lock, especially with auto fuel. You can always install a backup battery to run the pumps and ignition if the main system fails. Personally, I would put the pumps in parallel using a couple of Tees just so you aren't pushing (or sucking) fuel through the inoperative pump. On Apr 14, 2007, at 11:48 AM, 601corvair wrote: > He recommended against it on the principle that we had placed all > our eggs in the one basket, that being the electrical system. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:24 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length Jay- The manual is out? I had an e-mail with WW 4/10 and it wasn't ready for publication yet. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length > > Bill, > > According to WW, you will need 4 AN6-23A bolts, 4 AN363-624 nuts and 4 > AN960-616 washers. This information is in the WW 601 installation > manual. > > Jay in Dallas > do not archive > > > "Bill Naumuk" wrote: > >>Jeff and all- >> Wow, this has been like a newspaper treasure hunt! >> Are HD/HDS and XL plans mount locations the same? Yes. According to >> the archives, the XL O-235 layout will also work for Rotax and Jabiru >> mounts on all 601s. But what about Corvair mounts? >> According to Phil Maxson, he drilled per plans for the O-235 and >> everything worked for his Corvair installation but for longer bolts. >> Now, all I need is to know is the bolt specs so I can give ACS some >> more money and I'm in business. >> I'm sure you can imagine how hard it is to hold back progress until >> you make sure you won't have to rework the whole front end of your >> project down the line. Education via the school of hard knocks. >> Anyone out there have the Corvair mount bolt specs? >>Bill Naumuk >>HDS Fuse/Corvair >>Townville, Pa >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jeff >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:34 AM >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! >> >> >> I'm using the JabiruUSA mount for the 3300 on mine. I also have a 912 >> mount that came off a flying 601. I asked Nick this question too. It is >> probably in the archives. His answer was to go ahead and drill it per >> plans so I could build the fueslage. He had the ZAC supplied mounts in >> mind, of course. I did drill the holes then and it worked out fine for >> the JabiruUSA mount years later when I bought my engine and FWF. Even >> though the JabiruUSA mount needed to be even more accurate than the 912 >> mount, it was. Accurate placement of the holes in the firewall is the >> key. The 912 mount has a plate at each corner that allows the builder to >> define the exact location of the holes in the mount too. No problems. >> >> >> >> Jeff Davidson >> >> Do not archive >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Maxson >> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:46 AM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! >> >> >> >> I made my decision to use a Corvair long after mounting my firewall with >> no problems. The only change is you need a longer bolt on the engine >> mounts compared to the one Zenith specifies and provides with the kit. I >> just unbolted my four mount points, cut the tack welds for the AN bolts >> and had a welder tack in four longer ones. I use the William Wynne >> engine mount and he can tell you the bolt lengths (or just measure them >> when you get the engine mount). >> >> I am assuming the same would be true for the HDS. >> >> Phil Maxson >> 601XL/Corvair >> Northwest New Jersey >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> From: naumuk@alltel.net >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Zenith-List: Arrgh!!! >> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:28:53 -0400 >> >> All- >> >> I must be the lousiest writer in the world, because all I've been >> trying to find out is, CAN I ASSEMBLE ALL THE PIECES OF THE FIREWALL TO >> PLANS AND MOUNT A CORVAIR WITHOUT HAVING TO MOVE ANYTHING LATER!! >> >> Thanks. >> >> Bill Naumuk >> HDS Fuse/Corvair >> Townville, Pa >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Bill Naumuk >> >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:00 PM >> >> Subject: Zenith-List: I'll rephrase the question >> >> >> >> Corvair people- >> >> Can I lay out and attach the braces per plans to the firewall and >> install the Corvair mount with no hassle, or will I have to move some of >> the braces down the line? To drill or not to drill... >> >> Bill Naumuk >> HDS Fuse/Corvair >> Townville, Pa >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listp://forums.matronics.com >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> i'm making a difference. Make >> e/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=wlmailtagline' >> target='_new'>Join Now. >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:16 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel system suggestions Hi Phil, Wing tanks are good in the HDS. The header tank does cause you to think about current range as you use and refill it from the wing tanks. You have to be comfortable with the tank being in front of you and it should be built of .040 or better. I prefer a smaller 9-1/2 gal header for space behind the instrument panel. Fuel pump issues are easily resolved with two pumps on the firewall in parallel and using one during cruise. A pump on each wing tank simplifies selective filling with a left-right-both-off valve at the center console. I wouldn't put a mechanical pump on the Corvair as I've replaced too many mechanical pumps, but not one electric pump. You shouldn't need a return line to the wing tanks unless you're going high pressure for fuel injection. I don't recommend it for the complexity it represents. Carburetors are just simpler. The Corvair is a good engine and won't let you down if you keep fuel delivery simple and adhere to WWs crank recommendations etc. Auto conversions can be extremely reliable if you stay with current best practice. I disagree on electrical pumps placed in series as one could either starve or clog the second one. In parallel they are each free to feed or not selectively. My HDS is set up this way and has nearly 100 hours running without problems. You'll find most of this is well covered in the archives. Good luck, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive 601corvair wrote: > Our project is a > Zenith 601 HDS that has 2 ten gallon leading edge wing tanks. It > currently calls for a plain vanilla corvair engine and an MA3 carb. TA has > > warmed to the idea of Corvair, although he is not crazy about it. He has > helped people in the past with other auto-conversion and was helpful, > but not overly enthusiastic. All that being said, here is the issue. > During a conversation on fuel system design we showed him the William Wynne (www.flycorvair.com) design > > for the Zenith XL, using the 2 in series electrical pumps and no > mechanical pump. He recommended against it on the principle that we > had placed all our eggs in the one basket, that being the electrical > system. His suggestion was to use one electrical pump and the corvair > mechanical pump and fly it like a Cherokee using the electrical pump as > a boost pump and only during take off and landing. Alternatively, he > suggested a header tank, pumping fuel to the header and gravity feeding > the carb. This would probably require a return line to the wing tank. > We discussed this for sometime and > then he asked me this. Could I name > a certificated aircraft, low wing, that only had one type of pump to > move fuel to the carb? If not, why did I think that was? Interesting > question as the FAA guys fly behind lots of airplanes. I would be > interested in any help or suggestion I can get with > fuel systems, > especially flying airplanes and their different fuel systems. Thanks phill > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:32 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length Bill, The manual is not ready for publication, but it is "out." I have gotten two iterations from WW. The first one was about 10% complete and the latest one is about 50% complete. No telling when he will finish it. He would never admit it, but he simply has more on his plate than he can possibly handle in a reasonable amount of time. Jay in Dallas do not archive "Bill Naumuk" wrote: > >Jay- > The manual is out? I had an e-mail with WW 4/10 and it wasn't ready for >publication yet. >Bill Naumuk >HDS Fuse/Corvair >Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:16 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length Jay- Since I'm through the firewall questions, I've got enough other stuff to keep me busy until he finishes the manual. Thanks. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Corvair firewall- bolt length > > Bill, > > The manual is not ready for publication, but it is "out." I have gotten > two iterations from WW. The first one was about 10% complete and the > latest one is about 50% complete. No telling when he will finish it. He > would never admit it, but he simply has more on his plate than he can > possibly handle in a reasonable amount of time. > > Jay in Dallas > do not archive > > > "Bill Naumuk" wrote: > >> >>Jay- >> The manual is out? I had an e-mail with WW 4/10 and it wasn't ready >> for >>publication yet. >>Bill Naumuk >>HDS Fuse/Corvair >>Townville, Pa > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: NACA Scoop in cowl From: "Tim Juhl" I'm attending an EAA workshop on working with composites this weekend. I'm most interested in knowing the tricks to finishing off the cowl that came with my Jabiru FWF kit. Regarding installing NACA scoops in the fiberglass cowling, the instructor asked a question which I couldn't answer so I'm tossing it out to the group. When installing the NACA scoop, aerodynamically is it better to square off the edge (sharp right angle) where the cowl joins the scoop or sand a nice radius on it? Thanks! Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106944#106944 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:31 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: NACA Scoop in cowl Tim, There is lots of stuff on the internet about NACA duct entrances. Google it. I have reviewed some of it and to me, it appears that most of the fine points are for greater efficiency at higher airspeeds. I personally don't think that there is anything critical about installation on a Zodiac. (My very humble opinion) Jay in Dallas Do not archive "Tim Juhl" wrote: > >I'm attending an EAA workshop on working with composites this weekend. I'm most interested in knowing the tricks to finishing off the cowl that came with my Jabiru FWF kit. Regarding installing NACA scoops in the fiberglass cowling, the instructor asked a question which I couldn't answer so I'm tossing it out to the group. > >When installing the NACA scoop, aerodynamically is it better to square off the edge (sharp right angle) where the cowl joins the scoop or sand a nice radius on it? > >Thanks! > >Tim > >-------- >DO NOT ARCHIVE >______________ >CFII >Champ L16A flying >Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A >Working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106944#106944 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.