---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/16/07: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:09 AM - Rudder Rear Skin Question (rbjjr) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: Rudder Rear Skin Question (Tom Lutz) 3. 06:21 AM - Re: Rudder Rear Skin Question (Tom Lutz) 4. 06:32 AM - Re: Rudder Rear Skin Question (Lee Thomas) 5. 06:55 AM - 6.4mm Reamer? (Stephen R. Look) 6. 07:26 AM - Re: 6.4mm Reamer? (ken smith) 7. 07:29 AM - Re: Rudder Rear Skin Question (Art Gibeaut) 8. 07:34 AM - Re: Rudder Rear Skin Question (AVIIDFLYIER@aol.com) 9. 07:53 AM - Work table (Jerry Hey) 10. 08:42 AM - Re: Work table (Roger Venables) 11. 08:45 AM - Gasse Cappe 701 style (Tommy Walker) 12. 08:47 AM - Sun N Fun BBQ (Gary Burdett) 13. 09:10 AM - extended wing tips (Keystone Engineering LLC) 14. 09:18 AM - Re: Gasse Cappe 701 style (Stanley Challgren) 15. 09:29 AM - Re: Gasse Cappe 701 style (Bryan Martin) 16. 09:41 AM - Re: Work table (dgardea) 17. 09:45 AM - Re: 6.4mm Reamer? (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 11:28 AM - Re: Work table (Ryan Vechinski) 19. 11:46 AM - Re: HF Pnuematic Riveter (Ron Lendon) 20. 12:24 PM - Re: Work table (ernie) 21. 12:55 PM - Leading Edge Flaps on Eagle (ernie) 22. 01:14 PM - Re: Leading Edge Flaps on Eagle () 23. 01:36 PM - Adding Duct Tape to the Toolbox (601HDS Ribs to Spar) (Mitch Hodges) 24. 01:38 PM - Canopy ideas () 25. 01:41 PM - Re: Leading Edge Flaps on Eagle (Michael Valentine) 26. 02:02 PM - Re: Adding Duct Tape to the Toolbox (601HDS Ribs to Spar) (David Downey) 27. 02:27 PM - Re: Canopy ideas (Gig Giacona) 28. 03:26 PM - Re: 601 Rudder light fairing fit (Tim Juhl) 29. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: 601 Rudder light fairing fit (Paul Riedlinger) 30. 05:12 PM - Re: Work table (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 31. 05:20 PM - HF RIVETER SOLUTION (Bill Naumuk) 32. 06:30 PM - Re: Work table (David Downey) 33. 07:35 PM - Re: Work table (raymondj) 34. 07:41 PM - Re: 601 Rudder light fairing fit (Paul Riedlinger) 35. 08:10 PM - Re: Work table (Jerry Hey) 36. 09:56 PM - Re: 6.4mm Reamer? (JohnDRead@aol.com) 37. 10:17 PM - Re: Work table (kevinbonds) 38. 10:21 PM - Re: Work table (kevinbonds) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:36 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Rear Skin Question From: "rbjjr" My CH 701 rudder skeleton is nearly done and I'm thinking about the rear skin. I am following the plans and don't necessarily want to deviate, but it occurred to me that I might get a cleaner looking and maybe stronger result if I continued the rear skin all the way down to the bottom of the bottom rib. To me this would look better than stopping the skin at the top of the bottom rib rather than taking it down flush with the bottom. Has anyone done this on the 701? Is it designed this way due to the aluminum sheet size restriction or for some other reason? Thanks Burke Johnson CH 701 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107242#107242 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:08 AM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Rear Skin Question I'm at the same point you are on my 701 rudder, and as a disclaimer, I am a complete newbie to building. I didn't think about your suggestion before trimming the skin, but your idea raises some questions in my mind that I do not have the answers to. Where would you put the rivet line? Would you put two rivet lines? If you change the location of the rivet line without adding a second one, will that let the rudder skin flex more? Will adding a second rivet line decrease the strength of the bottom rib because of the extra holes? If you notice similar opportunities to change the original design, how much accumulated weight will be added to the airframe? Tom On 4/16/07, rbjjr wrote: > > > My CH 701 rudder skeleton is nearly done and I'm thinking about the rear > skin. > > I am following the plans and don't necessarily want to deviate, but it > occurred to me that I might get a cleaner looking and maybe stronger result > if I continued the rear skin all the way down to the bottom of the bottom > rib. To me this would look better than stopping the skin at the top of the > bottom rib rather than taking it down flush with the bottom. > > Has anyone done this on the 701? Is it designed this way due to the > aluminum sheet size restriction or for some other reason? > > Thanks > > Burke Johnson > CH 701 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107242#107242 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:13 AM PST US From: "Tom Lutz" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Rear Skin Question Burke, Did you install your rudder horn yet? I had some problems installing the horn because the rivets on the very bottom edge of the spar were hitting the horn rivets. Had to drill out those smaller rivets and install the horn first. Tom On 4/16/07, rbjjr wrote: > > > My CH 701 rudder skeleton is nearly done and I'm thinking about the rear > skin. > > I am following the plans and don't necessarily want to deviate, but it > occurred to me that I might get a cleaner looking and maybe stronger result > if I continued the rear skin all the way down to the bottom of the bottom > rib. To me this would look better than stopping the skin at the top of the > bottom rib rather than taking it down flush with the bottom. > > Has anyone done this on the 701? Is it designed this way due to the > aluminum sheet size restriction or for some other reason? > > Thanks > > Burke Johnson > CH 701 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107242#107242 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:20 AM PST US From: "Lee Thomas" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rudder Rear Skin Question -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rbjjr Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 5:08 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder Rear Skin Question My CH 701 rudder skeleton is nearly done and I'm thinking about the rear skin. I did the skin in one piece and it worked out fine. Lee Thomas Ch701 (scratch built-plane ready for final inspection) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:31 AM PST US From: "Stephen R. Look" Subject: Zenith-List: 6.4mm Reamer? I started to install the aileron bellcrank yesterday but found that the bushing doesn't fit. I see the note about reaming the bearing block to 6.4mm. How do I do that? Do I need to put some kind of lube on the bushing? Thanks, Steve Steve Look Monticello, IL 601XL, Corvair "Dogs have owners, Cats have staff" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:16 AM PST US From: ken smith Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 6.4mm Reamer? You can either buy a reamer the correct size, or spin the bushing down to fit the existing hole. I measured my bushings and they were 0.254 inch dia, so I reamed the holes out with a 0.255 reamer. regds Ken --- "Stephen R. Look" wrote: > > > I started to install the aileron bellcrank yesterday > but found that > the bushing doesn't fit. I see the note about > reaming the bearing > block to 6.4mm. How do I do that? Do I need to put > some kind of lube > on the bushing? > > Thanks, > Steve > > Steve Look > Monticello, IL > 601XL, Corvair > "Dogs have owners, Cats have staff" > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:27 AM PST US From: Art Gibeaut Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Rear Skin Question I also am a newbie and only a little further along than you guys are. I'm done with the Rudder, Horiz. Stab., and the Elevator and here is what I've learned so far. Build it strictly to the plans. I lurked for several months here before I decided to build the 701, and that theme keeps coming back over and over. Even the most experienced among us will routinely caution not to deviate. I'm still a rookie at this, so take this advice for what it is worth. I've had a couple of instances already where I was tempted to deviate, and then 5 or 6 steps down the line realized what a mistake that would have been. This website has a wealth of advice and encouragement from some great people, who routinely share the knowledge gained from their success and their failures. Priceless. Stick to the plans. I hope you guys are enjoying this as much as I am. Do not archive --- Tom Lutz wrote: > I'm at the same point you are on my 701 rudder, and > as a disclaimer, I am a > complete newbie to building. I didn't think about > your suggestion before > trimming the skin, but your idea raises some > questions in my mind that I do > not have the answers to. Where would you put the > rivet line? Would you put > two rivet lines? If you change the location of the > rivet line without > adding a second one, will that let the rudder skin > flex more? Will adding a > second rivet line decrease the strength of the > bottom rib because of the > extra holes? If you notice similar opportunities to > change the original > design, how much accumulated weight will be added to > the airframe? > > Tom > > > On 4/16/07, rbjjr wrote: > > > > > > > My CH 701 rudder skeleton is nearly done and I'm > thinking about the rear > > skin. > > > > I am following the plans and don't necessarily > want to deviate, but it > > occurred to me that I might get a cleaner looking > and maybe stronger result > > if I continued the rear skin all the way down to > the bottom of the bottom > > rib. To me this would look better than stopping > the skin at the top of the > > bottom rib rather than taking it down flush with > the bottom. > > > > Has anyone done this on the 701? Is it designed > this way due to the > > aluminum sheet size restriction or for some other > reason? > > > > Thanks > > > > Burke Johnson > > CH 701 > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107242#107242 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:31 AM PST US From: AVIIDFLYIER@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder Rear Skin Question My manual says not to put the rudder horn until later. So I taped it to the rudder and put away until I am ready to install. Tom Knox CH-701 Tail feathers, Left wing 90% ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:13 AM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Zenith-List: Work table I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:31 AM PST US From: "Roger Venables" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Work table Jerry I am building a 701 and I find 12 foot by 4 foot works well Roger CH-701, finished building, installing systems -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Hey Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 7:53 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Work table I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Gasse Cappe 701 style From: "Tommy Walker" Listers, I noticed the Zenith 701 Demo has vented gas caps with little periscope looking vent tubes on top. I guess the reason for this is to provide positive pressure inside the tank during flight. Is anyone else using these type caps, and if so where did you get them or did you make them? The ones provided with my tanks have just a smooth dome-shaped cap. Thanks for all responses. Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Archive -------- Tommy Walker Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107294#107294 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:19 AM PST US From: Gary Burdett Subject: Zenith-List: Sun N Fun BBQ Is the 601 BBQ at the camping side of Sun N Fun? That is you don't enter the gates? I am a potential builder and sure would be interested in talking with current builders but I don't get in until late Thursday afternoon. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:13 AM PST US From: Keystone Engineering LLC Subject: Zenith-List: extended wing tips I installed a flat sheet of sheet metal to the flat portion of the wing tip on my 801. It extends about 3" above the wing in front and about 8" above the trailing edge. For now I just used 100 mile an hour tape to install it. I installed one to see if I could detect any change in flight characteristics. I was hoping for a yawing of the plane indicating less drag. What I got was a rolling effect. Normally when I fly the plane with just me in the left seat the left wing is heavy. With the extended wing tip on the left side the plane flew straight. What got me started thinking about modifying the wing tip was talking with Bob Jones who installed "stall fences" on his 701. He said the "Dutch roll" tendency was greatly reduced. He really like the way it flew. I looked at the latest thoughts on wing tips and thought can I improve the flight characteristics a couple of percent. Has anyone else experimented with this? Can anyone tell me if I have more lift will you go faster? or slower? Bill Wilcox N801BW Valdez, AK 290 hrs Spring has finally sprung! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:08 AM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gasse Cappe 701 style Tommy: I talked to Roger last year about the gas cap when at the rudder workshop and he indicated that they could modify the cap to provide the positive pressure. Stan N701VG (Reserved) On Apr 16, 2007, at 9:45 AM, Tommy Walker wrote: > > > Listers, > > I noticed the Zenith 701 Demo has vented gas caps with little > periscope looking vent tubes on top. I guess the reason for this > is to provide positive pressure inside the tank during flight. > Is anyone else using these type caps, and if so where did you get > them or did you make them? > > The ones provided with my tanks have just a smooth dome-shaped cap. > Thanks for all responses. > > Tommy Walker in Alabama > Do Archive > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:24 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gasse Cappe 701 style I have similar caps on my 601XL. I have one of the earlier kits before they went to the flush mounted caps with remote venting. The vented caps as they came with the kit would siphon small amounts of fuel out onto the wing during flight when the tanks were full. I had someone weld the tubing to my caps to put a stop to that. I don't know if they changed the way the tanks are vented on the newer 701 kits. If your plane has vent lines installed in the wings for the tanks leading to external vents like a Cessna, you don't need vented caps. If the only venting for your tanks are through vented caps, you can weld the tubes on the caps. I've seen these tubes used on the gas caps on kit foxes and for the header tank on the Sonex, so there may be other sources for them. > > > I noticed the Zenith 701 Demo has vented gas caps with little > periscope looking vent tubes on top. I guess the reason for this > is to provide positive pressure inside the tank during flight. > Is anyone else using these type caps, and if so where did you get > them or did you make them? > > The ones provided with my tanks have just a smooth dome-shaped cap. > Thanks for all responses. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:27 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Work table From: "dgardea" Jerry, An excellent set of plans for a 4 by 12 table are at http://www.ch601.org/tools.htm Scroll a bit down the page and look for "table plans". I built this table for my 601XL project. -------- Dave Gardea Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107312#107312 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p5270257_163.jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:14 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 6.4mm Reamer? Hi Steve, You need to buy a reamer. You drill the hole to a little bit (.010 or .020 inches) smaller than the reamer size then run the reamer through the hole to get the final size. I would recommend a hand reamer, but you can also use a chucking reamer and a drill press or other drilling machine. There are many sources of reamers in any size you want. Travers Tool is a good one for folks near the east coast. On the West coast, MSC is a good choice. Lubrication should not be necessary for a slow moving part like the bell crank, but you might want to apply a little from time to time. The lube will go between the inside of the bushing and the bolt. Paul XL fuselage At 05:52 AM 4/16/2007, you wrote: > >I started to install the aileron bellcrank yesterday but found that >the bushing doesn't fit. I see the note about reaming the bearing >block to 6.4mm. How do I do that? Do I need to put some kind of >lube on the bushing? > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:35 AM PST US From: Ryan Vechinski Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Work table Jerry, I built mine ~13ft x 4ft, and that is plenty big. I used 2x6's for the top frame, but if I had to do it again, I would use engineered I-beams. The reason is they are straight. I thought the 2x6's I used were straight, but when you start measuring your table top, you see all of the variations in the board. I used 3/4" BC plywood for the top, but I would use MDF instead. MDF is extremely flat, and hard. I went though a lot of extra shimming on my table to get it flat, and it still is not perfectly flat. If you want to see a picture of my table you can go to users.tznet.com/~brothapig I'll send you more pictures off list if you would like them. Happy building. Ryan ---------------------------------------- > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > From: jerryhey@earthlink.net > Subject: Zenith-List: Work table > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:52:39 -0400 > > > I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I > have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as > to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HF Pnuematic Riveter From: "Ron Lendon" I used a couple drops of air tool oil right down the nosepiece and it started grabbing the shanks again. I think the teeth built up with metal particles and the oil helped loosen them. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107354#107354 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:57 PM PST US From: ernie Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work table Hi, I used the engineered I-beams. The ones I used had 1x3 top and bottom. I would use the 2x4 version if I had to do it over again. They were not perfectly flat, but straight. My Neighbor told me that the ones he has used in the past were better quality. I think the version with 2x4 top and bottom would have been the better quality. http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dhdvd8qv_8gzwkqk&revision=_latest E. Do not Archive On 4/16/07, Ryan Vechinski wrote: > > > > Jerry, I built mine ~13ft x 4ft, and that is plenty big. I used 2x6's for > the top frame, but if I had to do it again, I would use engineered > I-beams. The reason is they are straight. I thought the 2x6's I used were > straight, but when you start measuring your table top, you see all of the > variations in the board. I used 3/4" BC plywood for the top, but I would > use MDF instead. MDF is extremely flat, and hard. > I went though a lot of extra shimming on my table to get it flat, and it > still is not perfectly flat. If you want to see a picture of my table you > can go to users.tznet.com/~brothapig > I'll send you more pictures off list if you would like them. Happy > building. > > Ryan > > > ---------------------------------------- > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > From: jerryhey@earthlink.net > > Subject: Zenith-List: Work table > > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:52:39 -0400 > > > > > > I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I > > have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as > > to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:25 PM PST US From: ernie Subject: Zenith-List: Leading Edge Flaps on Eagle Not directly related to zenith but interesting I hope. http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/photocomp/2006/noelly42_1.shtml The image shows the potential importance of the leading edge flap seen deployed from the wing in the upper frame as the eagle comes in to land. It has been hypothesized that this flap acts as a high lift device, increasing the lifting force of the wing at low speeds and high angles of attack, in order to delay stall and afford the bird increased control during landings and manoeuvres. Recent wind tunnel experiments taking place in the Aerolab have shown that the flap is able to almost double the lift in a certain range of Reynolds number and angles of attack. In the flight test portrayed by the lower frame, the flap failed to deploy, and the bird missed his targeted landing by several inches. The photograph is comprised of images from two separate video clips taken in Denmark on a research trip to study a Steppe Eagle. Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:03 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Leading Edge Flaps on Eagle I'll bet a dollar that someone is out there at this very minute removing the leading edge flaps form his or her Steppe Eagle to reduce drag / increase cruise speed. Dred ---- ernie wrote: > Not directly related to zenith but interesting I hope. > > http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/photocomp/2006/noelly42_1.shtml Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:50 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Adding Duct Tape to the Toolbox (601HDS Ribs to Spar) From: "Mitch Hodges" Isn't always amazing how the second of two subsystems never takes as long as the first? With experience come knowledge, and a little luck. One thing I have to share, since I haven't seen this "method" in the archives, is the method I used to attach and hold the nose and rear ribs yesterday while I drilled the pilot holes through the spar. On the right wing, I used the system outlined in the builder sequence manual with the clamps, etc. It worked but took me a long full day to do by myself. As I was looking at the next wing yesterday, it occurred to me, why not just tape them on! I grabbed my handy-dandy roll of bright yellow duct tape, lined each rib up along their rivet lines, checked with a square and taped them down by running a piece of tape along the rib flange to the spar. I taped all the nose ribs first, drilled the holes, removed them, taped the rear ribs in place, drilled them, and finished the whole process in well less than an hour! Duct tape held like a champ, and came right off with no residue (although I cleaned it just to be sure). You do have to watch and make sure they don't slip off their lines, but none of mine moved as long as I used a backup block held behind while drilling and I made sure the tape was securely attached. I think I've found a new builder's friend! Mitch Hodges -------- N601MH (Zenith 601HDS) Wings Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107391#107391 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:24 PM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy ideas Hi Guys, I'm about 80% done with the canopy on my 601XL and I have a thought to share with the list. I recall lots of references to cutting a little oval slot in the inside flashing of the canopy frame to allow us to release the latch with a small screwdriver if the cable release linkage fails. I don't however recall anyone saying anything about access to release the latch form outside the plane in such a case. Of course, one could unscrew all the self tapping screws and remove the bubble from the canopy frame but I would like something simpler if the need arises. So, I've decided to drill a 1/4" hole through the steel plate between the rear bow tube socket and the latch mechanism and tap it for 5/16" x 18 threads to accept an allen socket set screw (to serve as a plug in the hole). The hole will be in line with the latch release lever to allow me to reach through with a small screwdriver to release the latch from outside the airplane. The set screw will seal the hole (with removable Loctite) until that access is needed, if ever. Since the set screw is only about 1/4" long, it will not protrude significantly from the side of the airplane, nor will it interfere with the movement of the latch release lever. The outside flashing will be back-drilled at 5/16" to align over the hole. The entire project adds no significant weight and costs about 70 cents. It could save a lot of grief someday if the cable linkage fails (like away from home base, for instance). I am also planning to make riveted (or screw retained) access hatches over the cable end adjustment fittings in the inside flashing on both sides for future cable slack adjustment. Why have the adjustment devices if we have no access to them, right? While I'm fairly certain that I'm not the first builder to do these little innovations, I don't remember anyone mentioning it for the list to consider. Anybody got other wonderful suggestions to consider before I rivet the canopy frame together in a week or so? Dred PS: After I woke up at 3AM a few nights in a row, I finally got the mental picture of what I needed to do to properly adjust the side frames, the rear bow tube sockets and the rear bow itself. After that I didn't feel like cussing every time I looked at the canopy frame. It was sort of like a twelve step program for amature aircraft builders. I feel much better now, thanks. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:28 PM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Leading Edge Flaps on Eagle Yeah, but apparently at the cost of reducing the landing accuracy of said Eagle! Maybe you get both benefits with vertex generators, but I bet the Eagles hate the duct tape needed to stick them on. Michael in NH do not archive On 4/16/07, dredmoody@cox.net wrote: > > > I'll bet a dollar that someone is out there at this very minute removing > the leading edge flaps form his or her Steppe Eagle to reduce drag / > increase cruise speed. > > Dred > > ---- ernie wrote: > > Not directly related to zenith but interesting I hope. > > > > http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/photocomp/2006/noelly42_1.shtml > > Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:42 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Adding Duct Tape to the Toolbox (601HDS Ribs to Spar) Hi Mitch; Any chance that you have a couple of photos to demonstrate the specifics of what you did? Do not archive. Mitch Hodges wrote: Isn't always amazing how the second of two subsystems never takes as long as the first? With experience come knowledge, and a little luck. One thing I have to share, since I haven't seen this "method" in the archives, is the method I used to attach and hold the nose and rear ribs yesterday while I drilled the pilot holes through the spar. On the right wing, I used the system outlined in the builder sequence manual with the clamps, etc. It worked but took me a long full day to do by myself. As I was looking at the next wing yesterday, it occurred to me, why not just tape them on! I grabbed my handy-dandy roll of bright yellow duct tape, lined each rib up along their rivet lines, checked with a square and taped them down by running a piece of tape along the rib flange to the spar. I taped all the nose ribs first, drilled the holes, removed them, taped the rear ribs in place, drilled them, and finished the whole process in well less than an hour! Duct tape held like a champ, and came right off with no residue (although I cleaned it just to be sure). You do have to watch and make sure they don't slip off their lines, but none of mine moved as long as I used a backup block held behind while drilling and I made sure the tape was securely attached. I think I've found a new builder's friend! Mitch Hodges -------- N601MH (Zenith 601HDS) Wings Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107391#107391 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy ideas From: "Gig Giacona" Well Dred since you got yours fignured out you want to come up here and work on mine? The construction manual is about || this close to useless on canopy installation. DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107401#107401 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Rudder light fairing fit From: "Tim Juhl" I would use the heat and a flat piece of aluminum to push the edges down that attach to the rudder. As to where the light attaches..... rough up the gel coat and apply a little superfil between the fiberglass and the metal piece. Cover the bottom of the metal piece with duct tape as the superfil will not adhere to that. After it sets up you can sand it conform with the rest of the piece. You will probably use superfil or a mix of resin and microballoons in other places to fix the fiberglass pieces. DO NOT use polyester resins..... epoxy resin such as the west system works best. Polyester resins will shrink with time. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107413#107413 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:55 PM PST US From: "Paul Riedlinger" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Rudder light fairing fit Thanks for the suggestions Tim. Paul Riedlinger paulried@rogers.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: April-16-07 6:25 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Rudder light fairing fit I would use the heat and a flat piece of aluminum to push the edges down that attach to the rudder. As to where the light attaches..... rough up the gel coat and apply a little superfil between the fiberglass and the metal piece. Cover the bottom of the metal piece with duct tape as the superfil will not adhere to that. After it sets up you can sand it conform with the rest of the piece. You will probably use superfil or a mix of resin and microballoons in other places to fix the fiberglass pieces. DO NOT use polyester resins..... epoxy resin such as the west system works best. Polyester resins will shrink with time. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:54 PM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work table In a message dated 4/16/2007 9:54:16 AM Central Daylight Time, jerryhey@earthlink.net writes: I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry ------ Jerry, For a FLAT and moveable work table I used the two sections of a new, Home Depot, extension ladder. Sixteen foot ladder, remove the fittings from the ends, space out plywood top surface down on the floor & lay out ladder sections with about 3 in clearance all around to clamp to during construction. Drill clearance holes through the rails for # ten sheet metal screws, about 3/4 in long, pan head PHILIPS head. Screw through ladder rails at about ten in spacing or so. Use good quality plywood that is flat to start with, Home Depot again. Layout is with both ladder sections laying next to ea. other. Screws through each of the four rails. Pilot holes only into the plywood. Then screw two boards across the four ladder rails, cross wise to form kind of a box beam. Place them where you think the legs should be ~~~~~. Box beam makes it strong & keeps it flat too. Use whatever legs you like, I used two small folding leg tables, sawhorses are used by others. That allows the height of the work table to be lowered later with shorter legs, or other supports. Just clamp it as needed. The ladder I used was 16 foot extension, and resulted in a 10 1/2 foot long by 4 foot wide work table. It fits in my work shop, just right for my 701 construction. Use the length you need for your length table. Measure the ladder extensions before you buy it, to satisfy yourself they are the same width, yes they are made to slide into each other, not a factor here though. The result is a FLAT & light weight work table, that goes together quickly. Cost is a wash, and the aluminum ladder rails are straight to start with and have stayed straight. I studied wood beam work tables & the tables at ZAC. Most were heavy and less than flat when I saw them. Be aware that the FLAT plywood table top is the tooling here. It gets screws, holes, slots, and whatever is needed to serve to make the aircraft parts along the way. It is the way the designer helps us build correctly, no twist that is. Flat is Flat. Level is another condition, useful now and then, as in joining the fuselage sections. Happy Building Jerry Erickson, EAA TC & 701 builder. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:37 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: HF RIVETER SOLUTION All- Tore my riveter apart and found that the collar that holds the nosepiece rivet grippers against the spring had worked loose so there was no spring tension. The grippers were flopping around with no purpose in life. I hand tightened the collar and pulled 3 A5s "In the air" so I could watch the action. No problems. At 17 cents apiece, I figured this was all the proof of concept testing I could afford. I'll wait until I've pulled a few "Real" rivets to find out if everything is OK, then wrench tighten the collar. Sketch attached. Good building! Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:55 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work table Here is another place where a couple of images would really be nice. Please post them if available. Thank you. do not archive JERICKSON03E@aol.com wrote: ...Jerry, For a FLAT and moveable work table I used the two sections of a new, Home Depot, extension ladder. Sixteen foot ladder, remove the fittings from the ends, space out plywood top surface down on the floor & lay out ladder sections with about 3 in clearance all around to clamp to during construction..... Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:31 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Work table Greetings, Some engineered lumber beams use LVL (looks like thick plywood) for the flanges. I think they might be straighter than the ones with regular lumber for the flanges. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ernie Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 2:14 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work table Hi, I used the engineered I-beams. The ones I used had 1x3 top and bottom. I would use the 2x4 version if I had to do it over again. They were not perfectly flat, but straight. My Neighbor told me that the ones he has used in the past were better quality. I think the version with 2x4 top and bottom would have been the better quality. http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dhdvd8qv_8gzwkqk&revision=_latest E. Do not Archive On 4/16/07, Ryan Vechinski wrote: Jerry, I built mine ~13ft x 4ft, and that is plenty big. I used 2x6's for the top frame, but if I had to do it again, I would use engineered I-beams. The reason is they are straight. I thought the 2x6's I used were straight, but when you start measuring your table top, you see all of the variations in the board. I used 3/4" BC plywood for the top, but I would use MDF instead. MDF is extremely flat, and hard. I went though a lot of extra shimming on my table to get it flat, and it still is not perfectly flat. If you want to see a picture of my table you can go to users.tznet.com/~brothapig I'll send you more pictures off list if you would like them. Happy building. Ryan ---------------------------------------- > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > From: jerryhey@earthlink.net > Subject: Zenith-List: Work table > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:52:39 -0400 > > > I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I > have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as > to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:34 PM PST US From: "Paul Riedlinger" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Rudder light fairing fit Just to finish this thread up, thanks to all of the people who replied. I used an old heat gun I had from my model airplane days (used to shrink Monocote) and it took me all of 5 minutes to fix the problem. I left the fairing clecoed to the rudder, and in heating the part up, it just naturally fell down to the rudder surface! Nice. It is not perfect, but a whole lot better than before. The rest can be handled with superfil Cheers Paul Riedlinger paulried@rogers.com _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Downey Sent: April 15, 2007 6:33 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Rudder light fairing fit I have seen this come by several times and this is just a thought: The tail is not mass balanced but the plane flies slowly so the idea of flutter is not very alarming. Notching the rudder trailing edge to achieve a cosmetic effect is not something to do lightly as any "loosening" of the control surface will reduce whatever flutter margin there is to some degree. A nicely faired external fitting is also quite possible. Jeff wrote: Well Paul, your fiberglass fairing looks better than mine! I'm just about to install it too. For mine, I will heat it up and try to get a little better shape out of the fiberglass. The fit as it came really is not acceptable. It is too late for me, but if this fairing is installed as the rudder is built, the fairing can be installed with the fiberglass flange on the inside giving a much cleaner installation. Jeff Davidson _____ I have fitted the supplied fiberglass fairing for the rudder nav light but it is so poorly made that the surface where the aluminum mounting bracket sits is not flat (about 1/8" height difference on the mold line where the two halves are joined). Also and likely more importantly, the edges of the fairing curl up away from the rudder skin when it is clecoed in place. How do you get the fairing to lay flush with the rudder skin? I _____ Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:13 PM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Work table I like this surprising table construction. Simple, inexpensive and accurate. I will be checking the ladders at Home Depot next time I am in town. Thanks, Jerry On Apr 16, 2007, at 8:12 PM, JERICKSON03E@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/16/2007 9:54:16 AM Central Daylight Time, > jerryhey@earthlink.net writes: > > I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I > have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as > to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry > ------ > > Jerry, > For a FLAT and moveable work table I used the two sections of a > new, Home Depot, extension ladder. > Sixteen foot ladder, remove the fittings from the ends, space out > plywood top surface down on the floor & lay out ladder sections > with about 3 in clearance all around to clamp to during construction. > > Drill clearance holes through the rails for # ten sheet metal > screws, about 3/4 in long, pan head PHILIPS head. Screw through > ladder rails at about ten in spacing or so. Use good quality > plywood that is flat to start with, Home Depot again. > > Layout is with both ladder sections laying next to ea. other. > Screws through each of the four rails. Pilot holes only into the > plywood. > > Then screw two boards across the four ladder rails, cross wise to > form kind of a box beam. Place them where you think the legs should > be ~~~~~. Box beam makes it strong & keeps it flat too. > > Use whatever legs you like, I used two small folding leg tables, > sawhorses are used by others. That allows the height of the work > table to be lowered later with shorter legs, or other supports. > Just clamp it as needed. > > The ladder I used was 16 foot extension, and resulted in a 10 1/2 > foot long by 4 foot wide work table. It fits in my work shop, just > right for my 701 construction. Use the length you need for your > length table. Measure the ladder extensions before you buy it, to > satisfy yourself they are the same width, yes they are made to > slide into each other, not a factor here though. > > The result is a FLAT & light weight work table, that goes together > quickly. Cost is a wash, and the aluminum ladder rails are straight > to start with and have stayed straight. I studied wood beam work > tables & the tables at ZAC. Most were heavy and less than flat when > I saw them. > > Be aware that the FLAT plywood table top is the tooling here. It > gets screws, holes, slots, and whatever is needed to serve to make > the aircraft parts along the way. It is the way the designer helps > us build correctly, no twist that is. Flat is Flat. Level is > another condition, useful now and then, as in joining the fuselage > sections. > > Happy Building > > Jerry Erickson, EAA TC & 701 builder. > > > See what's free at AOL.com. > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:24 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 6.4mm Reamer? A letter "F" drill is 0.254 diameter and works just fine. John ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:25 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Work table Take a look at my worktable construction page here http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds/Worktable.htm Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Hey Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Work table I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:23 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Work table Engineered I-beams aren't perfectly straight either. My table is unbelievably flat. No shimming required. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds/Worktable.htm Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Vechinski Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 1:27 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Work table Jerry, I built mine ~13ft x 4ft, and that is plenty big. I used 2x6's for the top frame, but if I had to do it again, I would use engineered I-beams. The reason is they are straight. I thought the 2x6's I used were straight, but when you start measuring your table top, you see all of the variations in the board. I used 3/4" BC plywood for the top, but I would use MDF instead. MDF is extremely flat, and hard. I went though a lot of extra shimming on my table to get it flat, and it still is not perfectly flat. If you want to see a picture of my table you can go to users.tznet.com/~brothapig I'll send you more pictures off list if you would like them. Happy building. Ryan ---------------------------------------- > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > From: jerryhey@earthlink.net > Subject: Zenith-List: Work table > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:52:39 -0400 > > > I just ordered the 701 plans this morning. Before they get here I > have time to build the table. Can anyone give me recommendations as > to length and width of the table top. Thanks, Jerry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.