Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:35 AM - Re: stick grips (raymondj)
2. 03:03 AM - Re: stick grips (David Downey)
3. 04:27 AM - Re: stick grips (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 05:19 AM - Floats on CH701 (mcolbeck)
5. 06:11 AM - Re: stick grips (William Dominguez)
6. 06:30 AM - Re: Floats on CH701 (Gig Giacona)
7. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Floats on CH701 (John Marzulli)
8. 07:30 AM - Re: stick grips ()
9. 07:42 AM - Re: stick grips (Brad DeMeo)
10. 07:55 AM - Re: stick grips (rickpitcher)
11. 08:34 AM - Gear Position (John Collins)
12. 09:14 AM - Update AERO2007 (Peter Barthold)
13. 09:33 AM - Re: stick grips (David Downey)
14. 09:35 AM - Re: stick grips (Michel Therrien)
15. 09:40 AM - Re: Update AERO2007 (TxDave)
16. 10:09 AM - Re: stick grips (raymondj)
17. 10:10 AM - Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Tim Juhl)
18. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: stick grips ()
19. 10:44 AM - Re: Update AERO2007 (dgardea(at)gmail.com)
20. 10:55 AM - Re: stick grips (Craig Payne)
21. 11:12 AM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Bryan Martin)
22. 11:24 AM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (T. Graziano)
23. 11:34 AM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Paul Mulwitz)
24. 01:48 PM - Re: stick grips (Paul Mulwitz)
25. 02:14 PM - Re: stick grips (Bryan Martin)
26. 02:31 PM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Ben52425@aol.com)
27. 03:16 PM - Re: stick grips (Craig Payne)
28. 03:27 PM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (passpat@aol.com)
29. 03:35 PM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Juan Vega)
30. 03:36 PM - Re: stick grips (Juan Vega)
31. 04:04 PM - bungee vs spring gear (601corvair)
32. 04:44 PM - Re: bungee vs spring gear (Bryan Martin)
33. 05:01 PM - Sun shades (robert stone)
34. 05:07 PM - Ray Allen flap switches (Craig Payne)
35. 05:10 PM - [Zenith-List]: Re: Running electrical cables (Noel Loveys)
36. 05:12 PM - Re: Sun shades (Bryan Martin)
37. 05:17 PM - Re: Sun shades (Craig Payne)
38. 05:38 PM - Re: Sun shades (Randy)
39. 05:45 PM - Painting... (Tommy Walker)
40. 06:47 PM - Sun Shade web site (PHFD400@aol.com)
41. 08:36 PM - Re: Painting... (nyterminat@aol.com)
42. 09:15 PM - What's in the Controls Kit...? (PatrickW)
43. 11:17 PM - Re: Painting... (TxDave)
Message 1
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I decided to use ones from joy sticks for computer games. I haven't flown
with them put it seems like it will work. This is the one I chose: Item
number: 180109958458. Just so happens that the company sells grips for
aircraft also. I'm planning on covering them with leather.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
do not archive
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rosestar
>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:53 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: stick grips
>
>
>
>Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many
>of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of
>wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown
>Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to
>wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for
>an alternative. Any ideas?
>
>Brad DeMeo
>Zodiac XL N601BD
>
>
Message 2
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where does that item number come from? I spoke with one of the owners of CH Products,
makers of gaming and industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3 models of stick
grip for full scale aircraft as well:
http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html
I decided to use ones from joy sticks for computer games. I haven't flown
with them put it seems like it will work. This is the one I chose: Item
number: 180109958458. Just so happens that the company sells grips for
aircraft also. I'm planning on covering them with leather.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
do not archive
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rosestar
>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:53 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: stick grips
>
>
>
>Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many
>of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of
>wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown
>Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to
>wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for
>an alternative. Any ideas?
>
>Brad DeMeo
>Zodiac XL N601BD
>
>
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 3
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Hi David,
I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips
look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they
also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a
problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor
requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire.
If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to
control the larger current motors. This makes for a weight penalty
and a real potential failure increase.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 02:00 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote:
>I spoke with one of the owners of CH Products, makers of gaming and
>industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3 models of stick grip for full
>scale aircraft as well:
>
>http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html
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Can anybody tell me what floats do to your gross weight? As it stands with extended
range tanks (full), a passenger and myself we would be at gross weight. Is
it a straight across the board change your landing gear to floats then redo
your weight and balance?
I have not completed my aircraft but know that when I have completed my test phase
I will probably switch from wheels to amphibs.
:D
--------
CH701 Builder and new flyer
Rudder, HS, and Elevator completed
50% complete on Wings
20% Complete on Fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108846#108846
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Ive been entertaining the idea of making them out of fiberglass. First to
make a plug with either wood or ceramic and then make a mold out of it. Use the
mold to create two perfectly equal grips. The only concern is that it will
need paint, and it might wear out with time.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many
of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of
wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown
Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to
wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for
an alternative. Any ideas?
Brad DeMeo
Zodiac XL N601BD
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Floats on CH701 |
Depending on the float you use they generaly carry their own weight, so to speak.
Meaning that if they way 100# they add additional lift of 100 #.
The only place this is a problem is if you are shooting for the LSA MGW and you
are already at the MGW.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108870#108870
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| Subject: | Re: Floats on CH701 |
The LSA gross weight increases by 100lbs for floats to 1420.
-John in Seattle
On 4/24/07, Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>
> Depending on the float you use they generaly carry their own weight, so to
> speak. Meaning that if they way 100# they add additional lift of 100 #.
>
> The only place this is a problem is if you are shooting for the LSA MGW
> and you are already at the MGW.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108870#108870
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot
harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
-Airplane The Movie
Message 8
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My experience with the Ray Allen products is that they are definitley intended
to be used with relays which handle the higher current when needed. Not sure how
much weight penalty that imposes.
Dred
---- Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips
> look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they
> also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a
> problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor
> requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire.
>
> If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to
> control the larger current motors. This makes for a weight penalty
> and a real potential failure increase.
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
Message 9
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Has anyone used Robbie Attaway's grips? They look great. He didn't
get much by way of business so he's got a few in boxes for sale in
different colors. Check out his website at Attawayair.com and look at
the interior pictures of the blue Van's he built. You'll see the grips
there. The grips are made of aluminum and look nice.
Brad
On Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 06:08 AM, William Dominguez wrote:
> I=92ve been entertaining the idea of making them out of fiberglass.
> First to make a plug with either wood or ceramic and then make a mold
> out of it. Use the mold to create two perfectly equal grips. The only
> concern is that it will need paint, and it might wear out with time.
> -
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami, Florida
>
>
> Rosestar <rosestar@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>
> Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many
> of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of
> wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle
>
>
Bradford J. DeMeo
Attorney At Law
Estates and Trusts
565 West College Avenue
Santa Rosa, CA 95401
(707) 545-3232
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Message 10
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rosestar(at)sonic.net wrote:
> Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many
> of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of
> wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown
> Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to
> wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for
> an alternative. Any ideas?
>
> Brad DeMeo
> Zodiac XL N601BD
I used the Ray Allen "hat switch" for trim control. Yes, it requires a relay to
handle the load requirements of the motor, all of the switches that I looked
at require a relay.
I mounted it inside a plastic gearshift knob available at Pep Boys. I added 2 pushbuttons to the assembly: a red one on the thumb side to transmit and a black one on top to toggle radio freq's . I'll attach a picture, you can see the 3 switches on the stick and the position indicators just to the left on the panel. http://www.lightflyers.com/zpanel.jpg
Rick
N601ZR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108906#108906
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/zpanel_168.jpg
Message 11
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Some Info Regarding 601XL gear position:
I just had a LONG discussion with Chris Heintz at Sun'n'Fun, with an AMD LSA 601,
completed kits and a quickbuild kit there to compare. Got a lot of grass on
my back. AMD is now using a Grove gear leaf that is both narrower and lighter.
Cris said the 601xl gear came from the ch2000 training plane that needed
to be able to withstand dropping in hard by student pilots. If the wheels are
moved forward, the plane is better able to land without dropping the nose too
soon. The AMD gear has a stop on the bottom bracket that can be reversed to
move the gear aft if you feel the need. I have noted that when heavier folks
are mounting the AMD demonstrator, the salesman generally stands at the rear and
holds up the horizontal stab to keep the tail off the ground.
Regarding mounting from the front of the wing, Chris said you should add two nose
ribs in the leading edge, lining up with the added rear ribs in that area.
This also allows you to leave out the steel step at the rear, which is there
to keep feet off the flaps. All simpler, lighter and cheaper.
I have had quite a bit of discussion with the folks at the Czech factory regarding
the composite gear, including e-mailed copies of the original 601xl plans
and their variation of the gear mounting system to fit the split gear legs to
the fuselage. They told me their gear is NOT the gear sold by Aircraft Spruce.
After a lot of discussion, we mutually agreed I would be better off with the
Grove one-piece system.
By the way, the AMD gear is made taller and slightly narrower by altering the bends.
Hope this helps,
John Collins
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 12
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Hello fellow listers,
I didn't manage to come to Sun'n fun, but at least I made it to AERO in Friedrichshafen,
Germany. I put some pics on my website...in case you're interrested
in a retractable gear zodiac... 8)
Greetings
Peter
Zodiac HDS TD
empenage complete
Wings in progress
www.petersprojekt42.de
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108930#108930
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accurate comment Paul;
Since I have not yet gotten there, does the drawing set not use relays to control
motors? I would have never even considered running power current through
the switch.
Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Hi David,
I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips
look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they
also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a
problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor
requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire.
If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to
control the larger current motors. This makes for a weight penalty
and a real potential failure increase.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 02:00 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote:
>I spoke with one of the owners of CH Products, makers of gaming and
>industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3 models of stick grip for full
>scale aircraft as well:
>
>http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 14
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I did...
I bought foam grips from Reid Tools and some chair leg
end caps from local hardware store. The PTT button
comes from a local surplus electronic store. Cheap,
simple and looks good.
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/images/DCP01831.JPG
The PTT button is now a bigger red button.
Michel
--- Rosestar <rosestar@sonic.net> wrote:
> <rosestar@sonic.net>
>
> Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been
> "shopping" and many
> of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone
> made some out of
> wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape?
> I have flown
> Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen
> G3. The foams look to
> wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot
> days. I am looking for
> an alternative. Any ideas?
>
> Brad DeMeo
> Zodiac XL N601BD
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Update AERO2007 |
Thanks for the very interesting photos, Peter. AERO looks like a great show.
do not archive
Dave Clay
Temple, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108938#108938
Message 16
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Sorry, the item number is from eBay.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of David Downey
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:00 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips
where does that item number come from? I spoke with one of the owners of
CH Products, makers of gaming and industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3
models of stick grip for full scale aircraft as well:
http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html
raymondj <raymondj@frontiernet.net> wrote:
I decided to use ones from joy sticks for computer games. I haven't
flown
with them put it seems like it will work. This is the one I chose: Item
number: 180109958458. Just so happens that the company sells grips for
aircraft also. I'm planning on covering them with leather.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
do not archive
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Gear Position vs Elevator authority |
All the recent discussion revolving around gear position, different kinds of landing
gear and etc., has been very interesting..... especially since I haven't
gotten to the gear installation part yet.
I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original design in the latest
plans supposedly to accomodate heavier engines. I hear comments about the
tendancy of the XL to hug the ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing
with the gear in the flat side back position. All very interesting.
I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and indeed a lot
of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose first landings. My solution
was to carry a little power into the flare to help maintain a proper landing
attitude. That approach made for smooth arrivals without using up too much
more runway. My question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants
to drop the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the flare
gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first arrival or is the
problem more extreme than what I found with the 182?
Interestingly enough, after the first year of Cessna 172 production (1956) the
gear was moved back a couple of inches to improve ground handling...
Tim
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108949#108949
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I have never used the "hat" switch from Ray Allen but I have used their grip with
a four button array for several years. The buttons are directly cabled to
the Ray Allen trim servo annd require no intervening relays since the servos
draw so little current.
Dred
>
> I used the Ray Allen "hat switch" for trim control. Yes, it requires a relay
to handle the load requirements of the motor, all of the switches that I looked
at require a relay.
> I mounted it inside a plastic gearshift knob available at Pep Boys. I added 2 pushbuttons to the assembly: a red one on the thumb side to transmit and a black one on top to toggle radio freq's . I'll attach a picture, you can see the 3 switches on the stick and the position indicators just to the left on the panel. http://www.lightflyers.com/zpanel.jpg
>
> Rick
> N601ZR
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Update AERO2007 |
Peter,
I thoroughly enjoyed your pictures and comments while having lunch at my desk today.
Some very beatiful aircraft being produced in Europe. Thanks for sharing!
do not archive
--------
Dave Gardea
601XL - Corvair
working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108962#108962
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> I know the flap motor requires 15 amps which would call for something like
16 gauge wire.
The flap motor wiring may call for a 15 amp fuse (page 6-B-20 of the plans)
but the motor doesn't draw anything like that (remember that fuses protect
wiring). With no mechanical load I've measured it a 3-4 amps. Given the gear
reduction I don't think the flaps present much of a load to the motor. For
up to 5 amps you can use the Ray Allen panel-mounted rocker switch RS2-5
(not the plain RS2):
www.rayallencompany.com/products/switches.html
The push button switches in the RAC G2xx grips are rated to 5 amps and can
directly drive RAC's trim servos. The only time you need a relay deck is if
you want to control one servo with two sticks:
"The modern design G205 and G207 stick grips use four, flush fitting
pushbutton switches to control one or two axis electric trim. These SPDT,
momentary contact switches are rated at 5 amps. They can be wired directly
to Ray Allen trim servos, eliminating the need to wire relays in your trim
system when one grip is used. However, if two grips are used, you will need
either relays or a switch to transfer the control of trims from one grip to
the other."
www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgrips.html
The "hat" switch in the G3xx grips are rated to 15 amps. The optional
surrounding switches have these ratings: push button - 2 amps @ 28 VDC (so
they can switch more at 14 VDC), toggle - 5 amps at 28 VDC:
"The new G303, G305 and G307 stick grips feature four individual SPDT
momentary contact switches to control one or two axis electric trim. The
switches are triggered via a traditional 4-way "hat" type activator. These
switches are high quality, 15 amp Honeywell Microswitches specifically
chosen for their superior tactile characteristics. The slotted one or two
axis faceplates also adds to the very positive switching action."
"The four trim switches can be wired directly to Ray Allen servos,
eliminating the need to wire relays in your trim system when one grip is
used. However, if two grips are used, you will need either relays or a
switch to transfer the control of trims from one grip to the other."
http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgripsG3.html
-- Craig
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority |
Making a mains first arrival in my Zodiac isn't a problem at all.
It's just that as soon as the mains hit, the nose wants to drop
quickly. As long as you are expecting it, it isn't hard to keep the
nose from hitting too hard. You have to be ready to give it some back
pressure as soon as the mains hit. Carrying a little power on
touchdown will help but it's not really necessary. The Zodiac has a
lot of elevator authority until you're well below flying speed.
As far as hugging the ground on the takeoff run, I can rotate well
before takeoff speed but it takes quite a bit of pack pressure. If
you are used to Cessnas, the main thing you will notice is that
unlike the Cessna, the Zodiac will not lift off on its own, you have
to apply some back pressure. This is not uncommon behavior for a low
wing airplane but with my gear in the aft position, it takes a bit
more pressure than it aught to. I have to be ready to release some
back pressure as the mains leave the ground. I don't consider this a
dangerous behavior, just different. It will get your attention if
you're not expecting it. A Cessna 150/152/172 will get noticeably
light on the mains as the speed builds up and will generally lift off
on its own at around 60 to 70 mph. My Zodiac will stay firmly on its
gear until I rotate it at around 60 mph. This actually is a good
behavior for strong crosswinds because the plane won't tend to start
drifting sideways just before liftoff as I've noticed sometimes in
Cessnas. Before my first flight in my Zodiac, I had 300 hours of
flight time, mostly in Cessna 150/152s and Skyhawks with several
hours in a Cardinal, Cardinal RG and a Cutlass RG and a few hours in
a low wing Beech.
By my calculations, I could turn my gear around without causing any
problems with entering from the rear step and this would probably
greatly reduce the two above behaviors. I will probably do this some
day, it just isn't a serious enough problem to make this a high
priority modification.
On Apr 24, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Tim Juhl wrote:
>
> I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original
> design in the latest plans supposedly to accommodate heavier
> engines. I hear comments about the tendency of the XL to hug the
> ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear
> in the flat side back position. All very interesting.
>
> I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and
> indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose
> first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the
> flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach
> made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My
> question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop
> the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the
> flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first
> arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182?
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority |
Tim
Speaking only for my XL
No problem landing mains first, in fact I do not believe I have ever
landed the XL nose first.
The problem with the "aft" gear position, especially with full flaps
and the resulting nose down pitching moment, is once the mains touch the
nose drops and even with the stick full or almost full aft I can not
keep the nose off. With full flaps, If there is much speed beyond full
stall and a high sink rate, the mains hit and the nose comes down hard
and bounces you back up into the air . If I hit a gust when flaring, a
little power smoothes things out. (Be nice to have a hydraulic type
shock absorber vice a bungee on the nose strut)
If I have a good crosswind, or the days are gusty, I use zero to min
flaps. Without the additional high nose down pitching moment of full
flaps, the nose does not come down as rapidly on touch down and the
airplane tends to stick to the runway. (I have not tried it, but I
believe I could apply full power and run down the runway and not lift
off without elevator input at zero trim. My airplane requires little to
no trim in pitch and roll in cruise. I guess I lucked out and do not
have a heavy left wing as others have reported).
My CG is about 360 mm (range is 300 - 450) when I am flying it by
myself.
I believe I once read that an XL once used for training was limited to
10 degrees flaps for the students.
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab3300 :N493TG; 234 hrs
---------------------
Gear Position vs Elevator authority
From: Tim Juhl (juhl@avci.net)
Date: Tue Apr 24 - 10:10 AM
All the recent discussion revolving around gear position, different
kinds of landing
gear and etc., has been very interesting..... especially since I
haven't
gotten to the gear installation part yet.
I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original design in
the latest
plans supposedly to accomodate heavier engines. I hear comments about
the
tendancy of the XL to hug the ground on takeoff and slam the nose down
on landing
with the gear in the flat side back position. All very interesting.
I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and indeed
a lot
of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose first landings.
My solution
was to carry a little power into the flare to help maintain a proper
landing
attitude. That approach made for smooth arrivals without using up too
much
more runway. My question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back
wants
to drop the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the
flare
gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first arrival or
is the
problem more extreme than what I found with the 182?
Interestingly enough, after the first year of Cessna 172 production
(1956) the
gear was moved back a couple of inches to improve ground handling...
Tim
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority |
Hi Tim,
I used a different but similar approach to landing a 182. I would
approach with power off, but pop the throttle to flare. This saved
me from having to do a "He-Man" tug on the yoke to pull the nose up.
I don't have any time on the XL yet, but I expect this to be a very
different experience from the 182. This is because the 182 weighs
over twice as much as the XL and has a lot more inertia.
There have been many comments and questions regarding the landing and
takeoff characteristics of the XL. There have also been at least
three different elevator trim designs in just the last two years. I
must conclude from all this that the differences with different
weight and power engines on this very light airplane are very significant.
I am using a Jabiru engine which is not as heavy as most engine
choices for the XL and provides the maximum allowable power. Still I
plan to install the gear with the main wheels in the forward
position. This should give me the most forward empty CG and lightest
nose for holding the nose wheel off the ground. The downside risk
here is that the tail may drop during loading, but I am not too
worried about this since it will hit the ground on the rear tie down
point which is both hard and strong.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 09:08 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote:
>
>All the recent discussion revolving around gear position, different
>kinds of landing gear and etc., has been very
>interesting..... especially since I haven't gotten to the gear
>installation part yet.
>
>I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original
>design in the latest plans supposedly to accomodate heavier
>engines. I hear comments about the tendancy of the XL to hug the
>ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear in
>the flat side back position. All very interesting.
>
>I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and
>indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose
>first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the
>flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach
>made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My
>question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop
>the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the
>flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first
>arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182?
>
>Interestingly enough, after the first year of Cessna 172 production
>(1956) the gear was moved back a couple of inches to improve ground handling...
>
>Tim
Message 24
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Hi David,
As far as I can tell the drawings are silent on wiring for the trim
system. They do show a heavy switch and circuit breaker for the flap motor.
Let me also comment on another issue - the size of the flap motor
switch. I feel if a 15 amp circuit breaker is required then a 15 amp
switch is also indicated. If there is some sort of overload you want
the circuit breaker to open the circuit rather than causing damage to
an under-rated switch. I understand the no load current for the flap
motor is considerably lower than 15 amps, but if there is some
obstruction for the linkage or possibly a heavy load from excess
airspeed on the flaps then the motor current will increase. Somebody
who worked on the design decided 15 amps was a reasonable limit and I
would rather respect that decision than try to second guess it.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 08:26 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote:
>accurate comment Paul;
>Since I have not yet gotten there, does the drawing set not use
>relays to control motors? I would have never even considered running
>power current through the switch.
>
>Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Hi David,
>
>I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips
>look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they
>also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a
>problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor
>requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire.
>
>If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to
>control the larger current motors. This makes for a
>
Message 25
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Also make sure it's a 15A DC rated switch not 15A AC. There's not
much difference between AC current and DC current in the steady
state, but there's a big difference when you try to interrupt the
current. Breaking the DC current flow is harder on the switch than AC.
On Apr 24, 2007, at 5:47 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> Let me also comment on another issue - the size of the flap motor
> switch. I feel if a 15 amp circuit breaker is required then a 15
> amp switch is also indicated. If there is some sort of overload
> you want the circuit breaker to open the circuit rather than
> causing damage to an under-rated switch. I understand the no load
> current for the flap motor is considerably lower than 15 amps, but
> if there is some obstruction for the linkage or possibly a heavy
> load from excess airspeed on the flaps then the motor current will
> increase. Somebody who worked on the design decided 15 amps was a
> reasonable limit and I would rather respect that decision than try
> to second guess it.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority |
HI TIM
I HAD A 182 FOR 35 YRS AND MADE POWER ON LANDING, S. NOSE HIGH
TOOK 3 HOUR, S, IN A 601XL (NEW EXPERIENCE) NO TROUBLE DRAGGING THE TAIL.
NOT MUCH FORWARD VIEW. GOT TO TRY LOOKING DOWN THE RUNWAY SO MORE PRACTICE FOR
ME
BEN
**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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The limit switches that come bolted to the flap motor (and are shown wired
directly to the motor in 6-B-20) are marked with DC limits of "1/2 A 125
VDC, 1/4 A 250 VDC" (note linear derating at increased voltages). The
markings on the switches inside of the RAC G3xx grip are the same. Both are
classic Micro Switch parts.
I measured the current drawn by the flap motor with and without a load.
Unloaded it draws about 4 amps. Lifting a 34 pound bucket of sand it draws
about 4.5 amps.
-- Craig
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority |
Ben
Sounds like you understand adding a
little power keeps you from banging the nose wheel at landing.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben52425@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority
HI TIM
I HAD A 182 FOR 35 YRS AND MADE POWER ON LANDING, S. NOSE HIGH
TOOK 3 HOUR, S, IN A 601XL (NEW EXPERIENCE) NO TROUBLE DRAGGING THE TAIL. NOT
MUCH FORWARD VIEW. GOT TO TRY LOOKING DOWN THE RUNWAY SO MORE PRACTICE FOR ME
BEN
**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority |
when i put my mains on 1 year ago i notice what al you have noticed, that the plans
are different than the book. Brian is correct. if you put the mains either
way, it won't matter for the ecception of pulling back on the yoke to take
off, versus, trimming for auto take off. Originally the zodiac had lighter engines
such as the 912 85 hp. hence the mains facing "back".
with the heavier Continental or Jabirus, the "flat side forward is fine", just
don't have two people standing on the wing step, to get in at the same time.
I have flown both positions and it is tougher to hold the nose up at touch down
or in grass field takeoffs. other than that, thats it.
Juan Vega
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>Sent: Apr 24, 2007 2:10 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority
>
>
>Making a mains first arrival in my Zodiac isn't a problem at all.
>It's just that as soon as the mains hit, the nose wants to drop
>quickly. As long as you are expecting it, it isn't hard to keep the
>nose from hitting too hard. You have to be ready to give it some back
>pressure as soon as the mains hit. Carrying a little power on
>touchdown will help but it's not really necessary. The Zodiac has a
>lot of elevator authority until you're well below flying speed.
>
>As far as hugging the ground on the takeoff run, I can rotate well
>before takeoff speed but it takes quite a bit of pack pressure. If
>you are used to Cessnas, the main thing you will notice is that
>unlike the Cessna, the Zodiac will not lift off on its own, you have
>to apply some back pressure. This is not uncommon behavior for a low
>wing airplane but with my gear in the aft position, it takes a bit
>more pressure than it aught to. I have to be ready to release some
>back pressure as the mains leave the ground. I don't consider this a
>dangerous behavior, just different. It will get your attention if
>you're not expecting it. A Cessna 150/152/172 will get noticeably
>light on the mains as the speed builds up and will generally lift off
>on its own at around 60 to 70 mph. My Zodiac will stay firmly on its
>gear until I rotate it at around 60 mph. This actually is a good
>behavior for strong crosswinds because the plane won't tend to start
>drifting sideways just before liftoff as I've noticed sometimes in
>Cessnas. Before my first flight in my Zodiac, I had 300 hours of
>flight time, mostly in Cessna 150/152s and Skyhawks with several
>hours in a Cardinal, Cardinal RG and a Cutlass RG and a few hours in
>a low wing Beech.
>
>By my calculations, I could turn my gear around without causing any
>problems with entering from the rear step and this would probably
>greatly reduce the two above behaviors. I will probably do this some
>day, it just isn't a serious enough problem to make this a high
>priority modification.
>
>On Apr 24, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Tim Juhl wrote:
>
>>
>> I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original
>> design in the latest plans supposedly to accommodate heavier
>> engines. I hear comments about the tendency of the XL to hug the
>> ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear
>> in the flat side back position. All very interesting.
>>
>> I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and
>> indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose
>> first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the
>> flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach
>> made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My
>> question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop
>> the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the
>> flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first
>> arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182?
>
>
>--
>Bryan Martin
>N61BM, CH 601 XL,
>RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
>do not archive.
>
>
Message 30
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by the way to all that put the Bar B Que, great job, it was nice to get to know
the other builders.
Juan Vega
-----Original Message-----
>From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
>Sent: Apr 24, 2007 6:15 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips
>
>The limit switches that come bolted to the flap motor (and are shown wired
>directly to the motor in 6-B-20) are marked with DC limits of "1/2 A 125
>VDC, 1/4 A 250 VDC" (note linear derating at increased voltages). The
>markings on the switches inside of the RAC G3xx grip are the same. Both are
>classic Micro Switch parts.
>
>I measured the current drawn by the flap motor with and without a load.
>Unloaded it draws about 4 amps. Lifting a 34 pound bucket of sand it draws
>about 4.5 amps.
>
>-- Craig
Message 31
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| Subject: | bungee vs spring gear |
I have a question about gear. We haven HDS project and have a choice as to gear.
Spring or Bungee. What are the pro and cons of each? thanks phill
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: bungee vs spring gear |
The bungee cords will have to be replaced every few years as they
wear out, the spring gear is basically maintenance free for the life
of the plane. It's not a trivial job replacing the bungees. My
feeling is that the spring gear should be easier to install during
construction, but I've never done it so I may be wrong. The spring
gear installation might be heavier overall.
On Apr 24, 2007, at 7:04 PM, 601corvair wrote:
> I have a question about gear. We haven HDS project and have a
> choice as to gear. Spring or Bungee. What are the pro and cons of
> each? thanks phill
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 33
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Does anyone out there have the address for Ralph Kroger Sun Shades
(Web site or e-mail)
Do not archive
Tracy Stone
Zodiac601XL
Harker Heights, Tx
Message 34
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| Subject: | Ray Allen flap switches |
BTW: I just took apart an RS2 and an RS2-5 (amp) flap switch. The switches
inside are identical - the same Micro Switch part marked with ratings of 1/2
A, 125 VDC, 1/4 A 250 VDC. What is different is the gauge of the wires
coming out the back - 26 vs. 22 gauge wire.
Some would say to just buy a (on)-off-(on) DPDT toggle switch. I like two
things about the RAC flap switches:
- they are shaped different than a toggle. So when my hand finds the switch
I know it is on the flap switch.
- internally they contain two SPDT micro switches wired such that when the
switch is in the neutral/center position the windings of the motor are
shorted together. This reduces coasting when you release the switch.
-- Craig
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: [Zenith-List]: Re: Running electrical cables |
I second the use of AC43. It is more than a self contained A&P course. For
thousands of maintenance personnel around the world it is considered to be
the bible of maintenance procedure. It is a great guide for how a job
should be done. Most of what is in there is just as pertinant to ship
building, automotive and even recreational vehicles as it is to aviation.
Even on dialup, with three of the five monkeys that type code for me on
strike, complete download was loooooong but possible. Many of the things
you will see in AC43 you may consider to be unnecessary but remember this
manual was written with many years of testing and experience in the aviation
industry. Be careful though, there will be cases when the designer of your
plane will intentionally do something that flies in the face of AC43. In
that case go with whatever the designer has outlined.
Noel Loveys, RPP
Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada
Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA
Aerocet 1100s
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Message 36
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Try searching for Koger Sun Shades, not Kroger.
On Apr 24, 2007, at 7:55 PM, robert stone wrote:
> Does anyone out there have the address for Ralph Kroger Sun
> Shades (Web site or e-mail)
>
> Do not archive
>
> Tracy Stone
> Zodiac601XL
> Harker Heights, Tx
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 37
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I think it is Koger, not Kroger.
This e-mail address was mentioned last August: rhkoger@fbx.com.
Google says this is a possible phone number: (515) 432-5714
-- Craig
Message 38
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The sun shades can be purchased from Van's aircraft website.
www.vansaircraft.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Payne
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun shades
I think it is Koger, not Kroger.
This e-mail address was mentioned last August: rhkoger@fbx.com.
Google says this is a possible phone number: (515) 432-5714
-- Craig
Message 39
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Listers,
I am painting my 701 project. I'm using Acrylic Enamel. We thoroughly
cleaned and prepped everything and then applied primer, tack coat, second
coat, then a 50/50 enamel-thinner mist which left a very good finish as
evidenced by the attached photo.
Thanks to Larry Martin for his referral to this paint. I think I will like
it very well.
I was lucky to meet several of you at SNF and enjoyed my trip down this
year.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive
Message 40
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| Subject: | Sun Shade web site |
Here is the Koger web site for the sun shades:
_http://cleavelandtool.com/kogercompany/sunshade.htm_ (http://cleavelandtool.com/kogercompany/sunshade.htm)
I was the first to order the Koger Sushade for a 601. I contacted the
factory direct rather than ordering thru Vans, or Cleavelandtools, and ask to
have
the shade extended 12 inches more in length than what he had for the RV's.
He added the extra length and longer channel that is rides in at no
additional cost. That was about 5 years ago, I'm sure prices have changed. I
think
his email is: _rhkoger@fbx.com_ (mailto:rhkoger@fbx.com) .
Jim Olson
CH601HDS
N56BJ 304 hrs
_http://eaa1211.org/olson.html_ (http://eaa1211.org/olson.html)
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 41
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Tommy,
It looks good!!!! Looks like you are getting near the finish stage. You must be
getting exicited.
Bob Spudis
N701ZX do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: twalker@cableone.net
Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Painting...
Listers,
I am painting my 701 project. I'm using Acrylic Enamel. We thoroughly
cleaned and prepped everything and then applied primer, tack coat, second
coat, then a 50/50 enamel-thinner mist which left a very good finish as
evidenced by the attached photo.
Thanks to Larry Martin for his referral to this paint. I think I will like
it very well.
I was lucky to meet several of you at SNF and enjoyed my trip down this
year.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive
[Image Removed]
________________________________________________________________________
Message 42
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| Subject: | What's in the Controls Kit...? |
Just curious about what's included in the 601 XL Controls Kit.
What do I get for my $925?
I'm building from component kits, and am just about done with one wing, and when
I finish the other I'll move on to the fuselage component kit.
Does it make sense for me to get the Controls kit now, before the fuselage kit?
Thanks,
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109109#109109
Message 43
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Good job Tommy! The paint looks awesome.
do not archive
Dave Clay
Temple, TX
601XL from plans
http://www.daves601xl.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109121#109121
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