---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/24/07: 43 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:35 AM - Re: stick grips (raymondj) 2. 03:03 AM - Re: stick grips (David Downey) 3. 04:27 AM - Re: stick grips (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 05:19 AM - Floats on CH701 (mcolbeck) 5. 06:11 AM - Re: stick grips (William Dominguez) 6. 06:30 AM - Re: Floats on CH701 (Gig Giacona) 7. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Floats on CH701 (John Marzulli) 8. 07:30 AM - Re: stick grips () 9. 07:42 AM - Re: stick grips (Brad DeMeo) 10. 07:55 AM - Re: stick grips (rickpitcher) 11. 08:34 AM - Gear Position (John Collins) 12. 09:14 AM - Update AERO2007 (Peter Barthold) 13. 09:33 AM - Re: stick grips (David Downey) 14. 09:35 AM - Re: stick grips (Michel Therrien) 15. 09:40 AM - Re: Update AERO2007 (TxDave) 16. 10:09 AM - Re: stick grips (raymondj) 17. 10:10 AM - Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Tim Juhl) 18. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: stick grips () 19. 10:44 AM - Re: Update AERO2007 (dgardea(at)gmail.com) 20. 10:55 AM - Re: stick grips (Craig Payne) 21. 11:12 AM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Bryan Martin) 22. 11:24 AM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (T. Graziano) 23. 11:34 AM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Paul Mulwitz) 24. 01:48 PM - Re: stick grips (Paul Mulwitz) 25. 02:14 PM - Re: stick grips (Bryan Martin) 26. 02:31 PM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Ben52425@aol.com) 27. 03:16 PM - Re: stick grips (Craig Payne) 28. 03:27 PM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (passpat@aol.com) 29. 03:35 PM - Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority (Juan Vega) 30. 03:36 PM - Re: stick grips (Juan Vega) 31. 04:04 PM - bungee vs spring gear (601corvair) 32. 04:44 PM - Re: bungee vs spring gear (Bryan Martin) 33. 05:01 PM - Sun shades (robert stone) 34. 05:07 PM - Ray Allen flap switches (Craig Payne) 35. 05:10 PM - [Zenith-List]: Re: Running electrical cables (Noel Loveys) 36. 05:12 PM - Re: Sun shades (Bryan Martin) 37. 05:17 PM - Re: Sun shades (Craig Payne) 38. 05:38 PM - Re: Sun shades (Randy) 39. 05:45 PM - Painting... (Tommy Walker) 40. 06:47 PM - Sun Shade web site (PHFD400@aol.com) 41. 08:36 PM - Re: Painting... (nyterminat@aol.com) 42. 09:15 PM - What's in the Controls Kit...? (PatrickW) 43. 11:17 PM - Re: Painting... (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:46 AM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips I decided to use ones from joy sticks for computer games. I haven't flown with them put it seems like it will work. This is the one I chose: Item number: 180109958458. Just so happens that the company sells grips for aircraft also. I'm planning on covering them with leather. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN do not archive >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rosestar >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:53 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: stick grips > > > >Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many >of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of >wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown >Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to >wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for >an alternative. Any ideas? > >Brad DeMeo >Zodiac XL N601BD > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:31 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips where does that item number come from? I spoke with one of the owners of CH Products, makers of gaming and industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3 models of stick grip for full scale aircraft as well: http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html I decided to use ones from joy sticks for computer games. I haven't flown with them put it seems like it will work. This is the one I chose: Item number: 180109958458. Just so happens that the company sells grips for aircraft also. I'm planning on covering them with leather. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN do not archive >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rosestar >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:53 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: stick grips > > > >Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many >of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of >wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown >Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to >wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for >an alternative. Any ideas? > >Brad DeMeo >Zodiac XL N601BD > > Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:52 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips Hi David, I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire. If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to control the larger current motors. This makes for a weight penalty and a real potential failure increase. Paul XL fuselage At 02:00 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote: >I spoke with one of the owners of CH Products, makers of gaming and >industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3 models of stick grip for full >scale aircraft as well: > >http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Floats on CH701 From: "mcolbeck" Can anybody tell me what floats do to your gross weight? As it stands with extended range tanks (full), a passenger and myself we would be at gross weight. Is it a straight across the board change your landing gear to floats then redo your weight and balance? I have not completed my aircraft but know that when I have completed my test phase I will probably switch from wheels to amphibs. :D -------- CH701 Builder and new flyer Rudder, HS, and Elevator completed 50% complete on Wings 20% Complete on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108846#108846 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:54 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: stick grips Ive been entertaining the idea of making them out of fiberglass. First to make a plug with either wood or ceramic and then make a mold out of it. Use the mold to create two perfectly equal grips. The only concern is that it will need paint, and it might wear out with time. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami, Florida Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for an alternative. Any ideas? Brad DeMeo Zodiac XL N601BD ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Floats on CH701 From: "Gig Giacona" Depending on the float you use they generaly carry their own weight, so to speak. Meaning that if they way 100# they add additional lift of 100 #. The only place this is a problem is if you are shooting for the LSA MGW and you are already at the MGW. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108870#108870 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:24 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Floats on CH701 The LSA gross weight increases by 100lbs for floats to 1420. -John in Seattle On 4/24/07, Gig Giacona wrote: > > wr.giacona@suddenlink.net> > > Depending on the float you use they generaly carry their own weight, so to > speak. Meaning that if they way 100# they add additional lift of 100 #. > > The only place this is a problem is if you are shooting for the LSA MGW > and you are already at the MGW. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108870#108870 > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:41 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips My experience with the Ray Allen products is that they are definitley intended to be used with relays which handle the higher current when needed. Not sure how much weight penalty that imposes. Dred ---- Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Hi David, > > I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips > look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they > also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a > problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor > requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire. > > If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to > control the larger current motors. This makes for a weight penalty > and a real potential failure increase. > > Paul > XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: stick grips From: Brad DeMeo Has anyone used Robbie Attaway's grips? They look great. He didn't get much by way of business so he's got a few in boxes for sale in different colors. Check out his website at Attawayair.com and look at the interior pictures of the blue Van's he built. You'll see the grips there. The grips are made of aluminum and look nice. Brad On Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 06:08 AM, William Dominguez wrote: > I=92ve been entertaining the idea of making them out of fiberglass. > First to make a plug with either wood or ceramic and then make a mold > out of it. Use the mold to create two perfectly equal grips. The only > concern is that it will need paint, and it might wear out with time. > - > William Dominguez > Zodiac 601XL Plans > Miami, Florida > > > Rosestar wrote: > > > Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many > of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of > wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle > > Bradford J. DeMeo Attorney At Law Estates and Trusts 565 West College Avenue Santa Rosa, CA 95401 (707) 545-3232 CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: The information contained in this email message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipients named above. This message may be an attorney-client communication and, as such, is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in error, and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and return the original message to us by mail. Thank you. IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: As required by U.S. Treasury Regulations governing tax practice, you are hereby advised that any written tax advice contained herein was not written or intended to be used (and cannot be used) by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the U.S. Internal Revenue Code. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: stick grips From: "rickpitcher" rosestar(at)sonic.net wrote: > Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been "shopping" and many > of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone made some out of > wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? I have flown > Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen G3. The foams look to > wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot days. I am looking for > an alternative. Any ideas? > > Brad DeMeo > Zodiac XL N601BD I used the Ray Allen "hat switch" for trim control. Yes, it requires a relay to handle the load requirements of the motor, all of the switches that I looked at require a relay. I mounted it inside a plastic gearshift knob available at Pep Boys. I added 2 pushbuttons to the assembly: a red one on the thumb side to transmit and a black one on top to toggle radio freq's . I'll attach a picture, you can see the 3 switches on the stick and the position indicators just to the left on the panel. http://www.lightflyers.com/zpanel.jpg Rick N601ZR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108906#108906 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/zpanel_168.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:13 AM PST US From: John Collins Subject: Zenith-List: Gear Position Some Info Regarding 601XL gear position: I just had a LONG discussion with Chris Heintz at Sun'n'Fun, with an AMD LSA 601, completed kits and a quickbuild kit there to compare. Got a lot of grass on my back. AMD is now using a Grove gear leaf that is both narrower and lighter. Cris said the 601xl gear came from the ch2000 training plane that needed to be able to withstand dropping in hard by student pilots. If the wheels are moved forward, the plane is better able to land without dropping the nose too soon. The AMD gear has a stop on the bottom bracket that can be reversed to move the gear aft if you feel the need. I have noted that when heavier folks are mounting the AMD demonstrator, the salesman generally stands at the rear and holds up the horizontal stab to keep the tail off the ground. Regarding mounting from the front of the wing, Chris said you should add two nose ribs in the leading edge, lining up with the added rear ribs in that area. This also allows you to leave out the steel step at the rear, which is there to keep feet off the flaps. All simpler, lighter and cheaper. I have had quite a bit of discussion with the folks at the Czech factory regarding the composite gear, including e-mailed copies of the original 601xl plans and their variation of the gear mounting system to fit the split gear legs to the fuselage. They told me their gear is NOT the gear sold by Aircraft Spruce. After a lot of discussion, we mutually agreed I would be better off with the Grove one-piece system. By the way, the AMD gear is made taller and slightly narrower by altering the bends. Hope this helps, John Collins --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Update AERO2007 From: "Peter Barthold" Hello fellow listers, I didn't manage to come to Sun'n fun, but at least I made it to AERO in Friedrichshafen, Germany. I put some pics on my website...in case you're interrested in a retractable gear zodiac... 8) Greetings Peter Zodiac HDS TD empenage complete Wings in progress www.petersprojekt42.de Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108930#108930 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:49 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips accurate comment Paul; Since I have not yet gotten there, does the drawing set not use relays to control motors? I would have never even considered running power current through the switch. Paul Mulwitz wrote: Hi David, I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire. If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to control the larger current motors. This makes for a weight penalty and a real potential failure increase. Paul XL fuselage At 02:00 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote: >I spoke with one of the owners of CH Products, makers of gaming and >industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3 models of stick grip for full >scale aircraft as well: > >http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:45 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: stick grips I did... I bought foam grips from Reid Tools and some chair leg end caps from local hardware store. The PTT button comes from a local surplus electronic store. Cheap, simple and looks good. http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/images/DCP01831.JPG The PTT button is now a bigger red button. Michel --- Rosestar wrote: > > > Has anyone made their own stick grips? I have been > "shopping" and many > of the commercial brands seem expensive. Has anyone > made some out of > wood, aluminum, leather, or bicycle handlebar tape? > I have flown > Zodiacs with the Ray Allen G205 and the Ray Allen > G3. The foams look to > wear quickly and plastics get very sweaty on hot > days. I am looking for > an alternative. Any ideas? > > Brad DeMeo > Zodiac XL N601BD > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Update AERO2007 From: "TxDave" Thanks for the very interesting photos, Peter. AERO looks like a great show. do not archive Dave Clay Temple, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108938#108938 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:38 AM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips Sorry, the item number is from eBay. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of David Downey Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:00 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips where does that item number come from? I spoke with one of the owners of CH Products, makers of gaming and industrial joysticks ansd they hav 3 models of stick grip for full scale aircraft as well: http://www.chproducts.com/oem/aircraft.html raymondj wrote: I decided to use ones from joy sticks for computer games. I haven't flown with them put it seems like it will work. This is the one I chose: Item number: 180109958458. Just so happens that the company sells grips for aircraft also. I'm planning on covering them with leather. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN do not archive >-----Original Message----- >From: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority From: "Tim Juhl" All the recent discussion revolving around gear position, different kinds of landing gear and etc., has been very interesting..... especially since I haven't gotten to the gear installation part yet. I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original design in the latest plans supposedly to accomodate heavier engines. I hear comments about the tendancy of the XL to hug the ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear in the flat side back position. All very interesting. I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182? Interestingly enough, after the first year of Cessna 172 production (1956) the gear was moved back a couple of inches to improve ground handling... Tim DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108949#108949 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:18 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: stick grips I have never used the "hat" switch from Ray Allen but I have used their grip with a four button array for several years. The buttons are directly cabled to the Ray Allen trim servo annd require no intervening relays since the servos draw so little current. Dred > > I used the Ray Allen "hat switch" for trim control. Yes, it requires a relay to handle the load requirements of the motor, all of the switches that I looked at require a relay. > I mounted it inside a plastic gearshift knob available at Pep Boys. I added 2 pushbuttons to the assembly: a red one on the thumb side to transmit and a black one on top to toggle radio freq's . I'll attach a picture, you can see the 3 switches on the stick and the position indicators just to the left on the panel. http://www.lightflyers.com/zpanel.jpg > > Rick > N601ZR ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Update AERO2007 From: "dgardea(at)gmail.com" Peter, I thoroughly enjoyed your pictures and comments while having lunch at my desk today. Some very beatiful aircraft being produced in Europe. Thanks for sharing! do not archive -------- Dave Gardea 601XL - Corvair working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108962#108962 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:39 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips > I know the flap motor requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire. The flap motor wiring may call for a 15 amp fuse (page 6-B-20 of the plans) but the motor doesn't draw anything like that (remember that fuses protect wiring). With no mechanical load I've measured it a 3-4 amps. Given the gear reduction I don't think the flaps present much of a load to the motor. For up to 5 amps you can use the Ray Allen panel-mounted rocker switch RS2-5 (not the plain RS2): www.rayallencompany.com/products/switches.html The push button switches in the RAC G2xx grips are rated to 5 amps and can directly drive RAC's trim servos. The only time you need a relay deck is if you want to control one servo with two sticks: "The modern design G205 and G207 stick grips use four, flush fitting pushbutton switches to control one or two axis electric trim. These SPDT, momentary contact switches are rated at 5 amps. They can be wired directly to Ray Allen trim servos, eliminating the need to wire relays in your trim system when one grip is used. However, if two grips are used, you will need either relays or a switch to transfer the control of trims from one grip to the other." www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgrips.html The "hat" switch in the G3xx grips are rated to 15 amps. The optional surrounding switches have these ratings: push button - 2 amps @ 28 VDC (so they can switch more at 14 VDC), toggle - 5 amps at 28 VDC: "The new G303, G305 and G307 stick grips feature four individual SPDT momentary contact switches to control one or two axis electric trim. The switches are triggered via a traditional 4-way "hat" type activator. These switches are high quality, 15 amp Honeywell Microswitches specifically chosen for their superior tactile characteristics. The slotted one or two axis faceplates also adds to the very positive switching action." "The four trim switches can be wired directly to Ray Allen servos, eliminating the need to wire relays in your trim system when one grip is used. However, if two grips are used, you will need either relays or a switch to transfer the control of trims from one grip to the other." http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgripsG3.html -- Craig ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:37 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority Making a mains first arrival in my Zodiac isn't a problem at all. It's just that as soon as the mains hit, the nose wants to drop quickly. As long as you are expecting it, it isn't hard to keep the nose from hitting too hard. You have to be ready to give it some back pressure as soon as the mains hit. Carrying a little power on touchdown will help but it's not really necessary. The Zodiac has a lot of elevator authority until you're well below flying speed. As far as hugging the ground on the takeoff run, I can rotate well before takeoff speed but it takes quite a bit of pack pressure. If you are used to Cessnas, the main thing you will notice is that unlike the Cessna, the Zodiac will not lift off on its own, you have to apply some back pressure. This is not uncommon behavior for a low wing airplane but with my gear in the aft position, it takes a bit more pressure than it aught to. I have to be ready to release some back pressure as the mains leave the ground. I don't consider this a dangerous behavior, just different. It will get your attention if you're not expecting it. A Cessna 150/152/172 will get noticeably light on the mains as the speed builds up and will generally lift off on its own at around 60 to 70 mph. My Zodiac will stay firmly on its gear until I rotate it at around 60 mph. This actually is a good behavior for strong crosswinds because the plane won't tend to start drifting sideways just before liftoff as I've noticed sometimes in Cessnas. Before my first flight in my Zodiac, I had 300 hours of flight time, mostly in Cessna 150/152s and Skyhawks with several hours in a Cardinal, Cardinal RG and a Cutlass RG and a few hours in a low wing Beech. By my calculations, I could turn my gear around without causing any problems with entering from the rear step and this would probably greatly reduce the two above behaviors. I will probably do this some day, it just isn't a serious enough problem to make this a high priority modification. On Apr 24, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Tim Juhl wrote: > > I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original > design in the latest plans supposedly to accommodate heavier > engines. I hear comments about the tendency of the XL to hug the > ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear > in the flat side back position. All very interesting. > > I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and > indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose > first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the > flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach > made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My > question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop > the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the > flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first > arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182? -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:46 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Gear Position vs Elevator authority Tim Speaking only for my XL No problem landing mains first, in fact I do not believe I have ever landed the XL nose first. The problem with the "aft" gear position, especially with full flaps and the resulting nose down pitching moment, is once the mains touch the nose drops and even with the stick full or almost full aft I can not keep the nose off. With full flaps, If there is much speed beyond full stall and a high sink rate, the mains hit and the nose comes down hard and bounces you back up into the air . If I hit a gust when flaring, a little power smoothes things out. (Be nice to have a hydraulic type shock absorber vice a bungee on the nose strut) If I have a good crosswind, or the days are gusty, I use zero to min flaps. Without the additional high nose down pitching moment of full flaps, the nose does not come down as rapidly on touch down and the airplane tends to stick to the runway. (I have not tried it, but I believe I could apply full power and run down the runway and not lift off without elevator input at zero trim. My airplane requires little to no trim in pitch and roll in cruise. I guess I lucked out and do not have a heavy left wing as others have reported). My CG is about 360 mm (range is 300 - 450) when I am flying it by myself. I believe I once read that an XL once used for training was limited to 10 degrees flaps for the students. Tony Graziano XL/Jab3300 :N493TG; 234 hrs --------------------- Gear Position vs Elevator authority From: Tim Juhl (juhl@avci.net) Date: Tue Apr 24 - 10:10 AM All the recent discussion revolving around gear position, different kinds of landing gear and etc., has been very interesting..... especially since I haven't gotten to the gear installation part yet. I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original design in the latest plans supposedly to accomodate heavier engines. I hear comments about the tendancy of the XL to hug the ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear in the flat side back position. All very interesting. I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182? Interestingly enough, after the first year of Cessna 172 production (1956) the gear was moved back a couple of inches to improve ground handling... Tim DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:27 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority Hi Tim, I used a different but similar approach to landing a 182. I would approach with power off, but pop the throttle to flare. This saved me from having to do a "He-Man" tug on the yoke to pull the nose up. I don't have any time on the XL yet, but I expect this to be a very different experience from the 182. This is because the 182 weighs over twice as much as the XL and has a lot more inertia. There have been many comments and questions regarding the landing and takeoff characteristics of the XL. There have also been at least three different elevator trim designs in just the last two years. I must conclude from all this that the differences with different weight and power engines on this very light airplane are very significant. I am using a Jabiru engine which is not as heavy as most engine choices for the XL and provides the maximum allowable power. Still I plan to install the gear with the main wheels in the forward position. This should give me the most forward empty CG and lightest nose for holding the nose wheel off the ground. The downside risk here is that the tail may drop during loading, but I am not too worried about this since it will hit the ground on the rear tie down point which is both hard and strong. Paul XL fuselage At 09:08 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote: > >All the recent discussion revolving around gear position, different >kinds of landing gear and etc., has been very >interesting..... especially since I haven't gotten to the gear >installation part yet. > >I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original >design in the latest plans supposedly to accomodate heavier >engines. I hear comments about the tendancy of the XL to hug the >ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear in >the flat side back position. All very interesting. > >I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and >indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose >first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the >flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach >made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My >question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop >the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the >flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first >arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182? > >Interestingly enough, after the first year of Cessna 172 production >(1956) the gear was moved back a couple of inches to improve ground handling... > >Tim ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:18 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips Hi David, As far as I can tell the drawings are silent on wiring for the trim system. They do show a heavy switch and circuit breaker for the flap motor. Let me also comment on another issue - the size of the flap motor switch. I feel if a 15 amp circuit breaker is required then a 15 amp switch is also indicated. If there is some sort of overload you want the circuit breaker to open the circuit rather than causing damage to an under-rated switch. I understand the no load current for the flap motor is considerably lower than 15 amps, but if there is some obstruction for the linkage or possibly a heavy load from excess airspeed on the flaps then the motor current will increase. Somebody who worked on the design decided 15 amps was a reasonable limit and I would rather respect that decision than try to second guess it. Paul XL fuselage At 08:26 AM 4/24/2007, you wrote: >accurate comment Paul; >Since I have not yet gotten there, does the drawing set not use >relays to control motors? I would have never even considered running >power current through the switch. > >Paul Mulwitz wrote: > >Hi David, > >I took a look at the CH web site for stick grips. The aircraft grips >look very nice, but they only have 22 gauge wiring. I presume they >also only have switches to handle a similar current. This might be a >problem for some of the motors on the Zodiac. I know the flap motor >requires 15 amps which would call for something like 16 gauge wire. > >If we use a grip like this it may be necessary to install relays to >control the larger current motors. This makes for a > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:30 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: stick grips Also make sure it's a 15A DC rated switch not 15A AC. There's not much difference between AC current and DC current in the steady state, but there's a big difference when you try to interrupt the current. Breaking the DC current flow is harder on the switch than AC. On Apr 24, 2007, at 5:47 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Let me also comment on another issue - the size of the flap motor > switch. I feel if a 15 amp circuit breaker is required then a 15 > amp switch is also indicated. If there is some sort of overload > you want the circuit breaker to open the circuit rather than > causing damage to an under-rated switch. I understand the no load > current for the flap motor is considerably lower than 15 amps, but > if there is some obstruction for the linkage or possibly a heavy > load from excess airspeed on the flaps then the motor current will > increase. Somebody who worked on the design decided 15 amps was a > reasonable limit and I would rather respect that decision than try > to second guess it. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:26 PM PST US From: Ben52425@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority HI TIM I HAD A 182 FOR 35 YRS AND MADE POWER ON LANDING, S. NOSE HIGH TOOK 3 HOUR, S, IN A 601XL (NEW EXPERIENCE) NO TROUBLE DRAGGING THE TAIL. NOT MUCH FORWARD VIEW. GOT TO TRY LOOKING DOWN THE RUNWAY SO MORE PRACTICE FOR ME BEN ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:22 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips The limit switches that come bolted to the flap motor (and are shown wired directly to the motor in 6-B-20) are marked with DC limits of "1/2 A 125 VDC, 1/4 A 250 VDC" (note linear derating at increased voltages). The markings on the switches inside of the RAC G3xx grip are the same. Both are classic Micro Switch parts. I measured the current drawn by the flap motor with and without a load. Unloaded it draws about 4 amps. Lifting a 34 pound bucket of sand it draws about 4.5 amps. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority From: passpat@aol.com Ben Sounds like you understand adding a little power keeps you from banging the nose wheel at landing. Pat -----Original Message----- From: Ben52425@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority HI TIM I HAD A 182 FOR 35 YRS AND MADE POWER ON LANDING, S. NOSE HIGH TOOK 3 HOUR, S, IN A 601XL (NEW EXPERIENCE) NO TROUBLE DRAGGING THE TAIL. NOT MUCH FORWARD VIEW. GOT TO TRY LOOKING DOWN THE RUNWAY SO MORE PRACTICE FOR ME BEN ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:29 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority when i put my mains on 1 year ago i notice what al you have noticed, that the plans are different than the book. Brian is correct. if you put the mains either way, it won't matter for the ecception of pulling back on the yoke to take off, versus, trimming for auto take off. Originally the zodiac had lighter engines such as the 912 85 hp. hence the mains facing "back". with the heavier Continental or Jabirus, the "flat side forward is fine", just don't have two people standing on the wing step, to get in at the same time. I have flown both positions and it is tougher to hold the nose up at touch down or in grass field takeoffs. other than that, thats it. Juan Vega -----Original Message----- >From: Bryan Martin >Sent: Apr 24, 2007 2:10 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gear Position vs Elevator authority > > >Making a mains first arrival in my Zodiac isn't a problem at all. >It's just that as soon as the mains hit, the nose wants to drop >quickly. As long as you are expecting it, it isn't hard to keep the >nose from hitting too hard. You have to be ready to give it some back >pressure as soon as the mains hit. Carrying a little power on >touchdown will help but it's not really necessary. The Zodiac has a >lot of elevator authority until you're well below flying speed. > >As far as hugging the ground on the takeoff run, I can rotate well >before takeoff speed but it takes quite a bit of pack pressure. If >you are used to Cessnas, the main thing you will notice is that >unlike the Cessna, the Zodiac will not lift off on its own, you have >to apply some back pressure. This is not uncommon behavior for a low >wing airplane but with my gear in the aft position, it takes a bit >more pressure than it aught to. I have to be ready to release some >back pressure as the mains leave the ground. I don't consider this a >dangerous behavior, just different. It will get your attention if >you're not expecting it. A Cessna 150/152/172 will get noticeably >light on the mains as the speed builds up and will generally lift off >on its own at around 60 to 70 mph. My Zodiac will stay firmly on its >gear until I rotate it at around 60 mph. This actually is a good >behavior for strong crosswinds because the plane won't tend to start >drifting sideways just before liftoff as I've noticed sometimes in >Cessnas. Before my first flight in my Zodiac, I had 300 hours of >flight time, mostly in Cessna 150/152s and Skyhawks with several >hours in a Cardinal, Cardinal RG and a Cutlass RG and a few hours in >a low wing Beech. > >By my calculations, I could turn my gear around without causing any >problems with entering from the rear step and this would probably >greatly reduce the two above behaviors. I will probably do this some >day, it just isn't a serious enough problem to make this a high >priority modification. > >On Apr 24, 2007, at 1:08 PM, Tim Juhl wrote: > >> >> I see that Zenith has turned the gear around from the original >> design in the latest plans supposedly to accommodate heavier >> engines. I hear comments about the tendency of the XL to hug the >> ground on takeoff and slam the nose down on landing with the gear >> in the flat side back position. All very interesting. >> >> I owned a Cessna 182 for 7 years. It tended to be nose heavy and >> indeed a lot of 182's have suffered firewall damage from hard, nose >> first landings. My solution was to carry a little power into the >> flare to help maintain a proper landing attitude. That approach >> made for smooth arrivals without using up too much more runway. My >> question is, if the XL with the gear flat side back wants to drop >> the nose, has anyone found that carrying a little power into the >> flare gives enough elevator authority to make a nice, mains first >> arrival or is the problem more extreme than what I found with the 182? > > >-- >Bryan Martin >N61BM, CH 601 XL, >RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. >do not archive. > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:58 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips by the way to all that put the Bar B Que, great job, it was nice to get to know the other builders. Juan Vega -----Original Message----- >From: Craig Payne >Sent: Apr 24, 2007 6:15 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Zenith-List: stick grips > >The limit switches that come bolted to the flap motor (and are shown wired >directly to the motor in 6-B-20) are marked with DC limits of "1/2 A 125 >VDC, 1/4 A 250 VDC" (note linear derating at increased voltages). The >markings on the switches inside of the RAC G3xx grip are the same. Both are >classic Micro Switch parts. > >I measured the current drawn by the flap motor with and without a load. >Unloaded it draws about 4 amps. Lifting a 34 pound bucket of sand it draws >about 4.5 amps. > >-- Craig ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:58 PM PST US From: 601corvair Subject: Zenith-List: bungee vs spring gear I have a question about gear. We haven HDS project and have a choice as to gear. Spring or Bungee. What are the pro and cons of each? thanks phill --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:00 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: bungee vs spring gear The bungee cords will have to be replaced every few years as they wear out, the spring gear is basically maintenance free for the life of the plane. It's not a trivial job replacing the bungees. My feeling is that the spring gear should be easier to install during construction, but I've never done it so I may be wrong. The spring gear installation might be heavier overall. On Apr 24, 2007, at 7:04 PM, 601corvair wrote: > I have a question about gear. We haven HDS project and have a > choice as to gear. Spring or Bungee. What are the pro and cons of > each? thanks phill > > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:14 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Zenith-List: Sun shades Does anyone out there have the address for Ralph Kroger Sun Shades (Web site or e-mail) Do not archive Tracy Stone Zodiac601XL Harker Heights, Tx ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:55 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: Ray Allen flap switches BTW: I just took apart an RS2 and an RS2-5 (amp) flap switch. The switches inside are identical - the same Micro Switch part marked with ratings of 1/2 A, 125 VDC, 1/4 A 250 VDC. What is different is the gauge of the wires coming out the back - 26 vs. 22 gauge wire. Some would say to just buy a (on)-off-(on) DPDT toggle switch. I like two things about the RAC flap switches: - they are shaped different than a toggle. So when my hand finds the switch I know it is on the flap switch. - internally they contain two SPDT micro switches wired such that when the switch is in the neutral/center position the windings of the motor are shorted together. This reduces coasting when you release the switch. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:32 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: Zenith-List: [Zenith-List]: Re: Running electrical cables I second the use of AC43. It is more than a self contained A&P course. For thousands of maintenance personnel around the world it is considered to be the bible of maintenance procedure. It is a great guide for how a job should be done. Most of what is in there is just as pertinant to ship building, automotive and even recreational vehicles as it is to aviation. Even on dialup, with three of the five monkeys that type code for me on strike, complete download was loooooong but possible. Many of the things you will see in AC43 you may consider to be unnecessary but remember this manual was written with many years of testing and experience in the aviation industry. Be careful though, there will be cases when the designer of your plane will intentionally do something that flies in the face of AC43. In that case go with whatever the designer has outlined. Noel Loveys, RPP Campbellton, Newfoundland, Canada Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA Aerocet 1100s noelloveys@yahoo.ca ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:00 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sun shades Try searching for Koger Sun Shades, not Kroger. On Apr 24, 2007, at 7:55 PM, robert stone wrote: > Does anyone out there have the address for Ralph Kroger Sun > Shades (Web site or e-mail) > > Do not archive > > Tracy Stone > Zodiac601XL > Harker Heights, Tx > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:17 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun shades I think it is Koger, not Kroger. This e-mail address was mentioned last August: rhkoger@fbx.com. Google says this is a possible phone number: (515) 432-5714 -- Craig ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:47 PM PST US From: "Randy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sun shades The sun shades can be purchased from Van's aircraft website. www.vansaircraft.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 7:17 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sun shades I think it is Koger, not Kroger. This e-mail address was mentioned last August: rhkoger@fbx.com. Google says this is a possible phone number: (515) 432-5714 -- Craig ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:33 PM PST US From: "Tommy Walker" Subject: Zenith-List: Painting... Listers, I am painting my 701 project. I'm using Acrylic Enamel. We thoroughly cleaned and prepped everything and then applied primer, tack coat, second coat, then a 50/50 enamel-thinner mist which left a very good finish as evidenced by the attached photo. Thanks to Larry Martin for his referral to this paint. I think I will like it very well. I was lucky to meet several of you at SNF and enjoyed my trip down this year. Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:42 PM PST US From: PHFD400@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Sun Shade web site Here is the Koger web site for the sun shades: _http://cleavelandtool.com/kogercompany/sunshade.htm_ (http://cleavelandtool.com/kogercompany/sunshade.htm) I was the first to order the Koger Sushade for a 601. I contacted the factory direct rather than ordering thru Vans, or Cleavelandtools, and ask to have the shade extended 12 inches more in length than what he had for the RV's. He added the extra length and longer channel that is rides in at no additional cost. That was about 5 years ago, I'm sure prices have changed. I think his email is: _rhkoger@fbx.com_ (mailto:rhkoger@fbx.com) . Jim Olson CH601HDS N56BJ 304 hrs _http://eaa1211.org/olson.html_ (http://eaa1211.org/olson.html) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Painting... From: nyterminat@aol.com Tommy, It looks good!!!! Looks like you are getting near the finish stage. You must be getting exicited. Bob Spudis N701ZX do not archive -----Original Message----- From: twalker@cableone.net Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Painting... Listers, I am painting my 701 project. I'm using Acrylic Enamel. We thoroughly cleaned and prepped everything and then applied primer, tack coat, second coat, then a 50/50 enamel-thinner mist which left a very good finish as evidenced by the attached photo. Thanks to Larry Martin for his referral to this paint. I think I will like it very well. I was lucky to meet several of you at SNF and enjoyed my trip down this year. Tommy Walker in Alabama Do Not Archive [Image Removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: What's in the Controls Kit...? From: "PatrickW" Just curious about what's included in the 601 XL Controls Kit. What do I get for my $925? I'm building from component kits, and am just about done with one wing, and when I finish the other I'll move on to the fuselage component kit. Does it make sense for me to get the Controls kit now, before the fuselage kit? Thanks, Patrick 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109109#109109 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Painting... From: "TxDave" Good job Tommy! The paint looks awesome. do not archive Dave Clay Temple, TX 601XL from plans http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109121#109121 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.