---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/30/07: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:06 AM - Re: 601XL manual flaps? (Maarten Versteeg) 2. 08:00 AM - Another Firewall Question (Michael Valentine) 3. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: 601XL manual flaps? (Bryan Martin) 4. 08:32 AM - Re: Floats on CH701 (ricklach) 5. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: 601XL manual flaps? (Bryan Martin) 6. 09:21 AM - Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket (PatrickW) 7. 09:21 AM - Re: Another Firewall Question (Roger Pritchard) 8. 10:04 AM - Re: 601XL manual flaps? (Matt Ronics) 9. 10:06 AM - ch 701 prop pitch (Gordon) 10. 10:21 AM - Re: Another Firewall Question (Flydog1966@aol.com) 11. 10:24 AM - Rotax 912ULS 100 hp (Alvin Rose) 12. 10:47 AM - Selling an experimental a/c (Dave Austin) 13. 11:01 AM - Re: Selling an experimental a/c (Juan Vega) 14. 12:06 PM - Re: Another Firewall Question (Craig Payne) 15. 02:45 PM - Re: ch 701 prop pitch (nyterminat@aol.com) 16. 02:58 PM - CH750 (StolBrit) 17. 03:06 PM - Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket (Tim Juhl) 18. 03:37 PM - More firewall imponderables (Bill Naumuk) 19. 04:14 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (Craig Payne) 20. 04:31 PM - Re: Selling an experimental a/c (BATAR@aol.com) 21. 04:45 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (Bill Naumuk) 22. 05:20 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (Randy L. Thwing) 23. 05:35 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (Randy L. Thwing) 24. 05:39 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (Craig Payne) 25. 05:40 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (David Downey) 26. 05:48 PM - Re: Another Firewall Question (Jeff) 27. 05:56 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (Craig Payne) 28. 06:31 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (David Downey) 29. 06:46 PM - Re: Selling an experimental a/c (PatrickW) 30. 07:18 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (R.P.) 31. 07:34 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (Bill Naumuk) 32. 07:52 PM - Re: Selling an experimental a/c (Edward Moody II) 33. 08:03 PM - Re: Selling an experimental a/c (secatur) 34. 08:03 PM - Voltage Regulator (CHETKRU@aol.com) 35. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Selling an experimental a/c (David Mikesell) 36. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: Selling an experimental a/c (Edward Moody II) 37. 08:59 PM - Re: Voltage Regulator (Les Goldner) 38. 09:06 PM - Re: Selling an experimental a/c (Jim Norton) 39. 09:36 PM - Group insurance (Brandon Tucker) 40. 10:03 PM - Re: More firewall imponderables (TxDave) 41. 10:10 PM - 701 Engine mount and water hose conflict (Roger Venables) 42. 10:14 PM - Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:57 AM PST US From: Maarten Versteeg Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL manual flaps? Hello Scott, Maybe I didn't express myself too clear, but for instance in case of a go-around I would like to reduce the flap setting from 40 to 20 or 30 degrees. Or with a touch and go I would actually raise the flaps immediately. With the switch that some Cessna's have the motor will run as long as the switch is up till the end position is reached, this takes time and if you only want to reduce the flaps to a certain level the pilot has to keep track of the position. I agree with the statement that the flap lever laying on the floor is not the easiest item to reach, having this in a more reachable position would be safer. Regards, Maarten Scott Thatcher wrote: > Hi Maarten, > > I've been trying to think of when you would need to retract the flaps > quickly and the only time I can think of that happening was during a spot > landing contest when the winner of the contest slow flighted the aircraft > just short of the "spot" and dumped the flaps, which caused him to drop like > a rock and touch down right on the mark from two feet up. No damage to > aircraft but a superb spot landing. What other time would you need to > retract the flaps quickly, short of trying to commit suicide? > > Scott Thatcher > 601XL with Corvair 92% complete > > ****Original Message********** >> >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL manual flaps? > < quickly retract the flaps if needed.>> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:11 AM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Zenith-List: Another Firewall Question Hi again folks, I don't know if I am being dumb or if the firewall section is just poorly documented, but I have more problems already. Unfortunately, I do not have my plans in front of me so I can't give part numbers. I think it is pages 6B6 and 6B7 (maybe 8, too) -- 601XL. There does not seem to be any measurements on the plans or in the guide as to the center channel doubler (I think that is what it is called). The guide says to drill those holes first, but there is nothing on the plans about where to drill them except that they are A4/40mm! The plans just show some hash marks, which I have never found to be accurate. So, does anyone have specifics on where the rivet line should go? Also, there are two wedge shaped pieces at the top on either side of the channel. Again, there are hash marks on the plans, but no measurements as to where the rivet lines should go. Sorry for the non-specific references, but if you understand the questions then I would appreciate any suggestions. Michael in NH 601XL ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:12 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL manual flaps? You could a use flap control system like the newer Cessnas have. The flap control is a variable resistor that you set to any desired flap angle and a simple control system drives the flap motor until a feedback resistor matches the value of the control resistor. The control lever has two detents for intermediate angles between flaps zero and flaps full. The control circuit isn't very complicated and could probably be rigged up from something from the local hobby shop. On Apr 30, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Maarten Versteeg wrote: > > > Hello Scott, > > Maybe I didn't express myself too clear, but for instance > in case of a go-around I would like to reduce the flap > setting from 40 to 20 or 30 degrees. Or with a touch and go > I would actually raise the flaps immediately. With the > switch that some Cessna's have the motor will run as long > as the switch is up till the end position is reached, this > takes time and if you only want to reduce the flaps to a > certain level the pilot has to keep track of the position. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:29 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Floats on CH701 From: "ricklach" Hi Carl, I would like to talk to you about getting a copy of the letter you provided with your request of a 1200LB weight limit. I will be applying for my registration to the FAA here in the U.S. soon and would like to do the same thing you did and the letter would help in my request. I can be reached at: rick@ravengear.us or 661-345-7755 Thanks Rick Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110005#110005 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:27 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL manual flaps? There was an article in the December 1997 KitPlanes magazine that involved a push button electric flap controller for a homebuilt. You could select a number of flap settings between zero and full with the push of a button. If anybody has this issue, this circuit might be easier to implement than designing a manual flap system. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:05 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket From: "PatrickW" I did exactly the same thing that Scot did - used a slightly larger bracket and six A-5 rivets (instead of the smaller bracket with 3 rivets). Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110015#110015 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:48 AM PST US From: Roger Pritchard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Firewall Question Michael, Give me a call at 603-496-7542 Roger Michael Valentine wrote: Hi again folks, I don't know if I am being dumb or if the firewall section is just poorly documented, but I have more problems already. Unfortunately, I do not have my plans in front of me so I can't give part numbers. I think it is pages 6B6 and 6B7 (maybe 8, too) -- 601XL. There does not seem to be any measurements on the plans or in the guide as to the center channel doubler (I think that is what it is called). The guide says to drill those holes first, but there is nothing on the plans about where to drill them except that they are A4/40mm! The plans just show some hash marks, which I have never found to be accurate. So, does anyone have specifics on where the rivet line should go? Also, there are two wedge shaped pieces at the top on either side of the channel. Again, there are hash marks on the plans, but no measurements as to where the rivet lines should go. Sorry for the non-specific references, but if you understand the questions then I would appreciate any suggestions. Michael in NH 601XL --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL manual flaps? From: "Matt Ronics" Those who are considering increasing the flap range would be well served to consider the effect this will have on bending moments about the spar/wing. The 601 wing is not a Cherokee or T-18 wing.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110022#110022 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:28 AM PST US From: "Gordon" Subject: Zenith-List: ch 701 prop pitch Just about ready to set the initial pitch on a Woodcomp 3 blade propeller on a 912ULS (Skyshop FWF) . Just wondering what pitch people are using, or what number to start with. Thanks, Gordon ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:34 AM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another Firewall Question In a message dated 4/30/2007 11:01:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mgvalentine@gmail.com writes: The plans just show some hash marks, which I have never found to be accurate. So, does anyone have specifics on where the rivet line should go? Also, there are two wedge shaped pieces at the top on either side of the channel. Again, there are hash marks on the plans, but no measurements as to where the rivet lines should go. The hash marks on the 701 plans mean - "no rivet zone". ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:06 AM PST US From: "Alvin Rose" Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912ULS 100 hp Hi Guys I am lookihg for a Used Rotax 912ULS 100 HP at a reasonable Price..Preferable with 200-300 hours on it...To be installed in my Zenithair CH-701 STOL aircraft..Anyone know where there are used engines available. Alvin Rose ajroseca@nf.sympatico.ca ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:05 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Zenith-List: Selling an experimental a/c Is there a lawyer, or someone who has had advice from a lawyer, out there, with a list of smart things to do as a prerequisite before selling a homebuilt (experimental) a/c? I remember some discussion some years ago, but can't find it in the archives. Thanks. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII PS. Anybody like to buy a Spitfire? Have a look in "Trade-a-Plane" ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:26 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Selling an experimental a/c Dave, call AOPA or EAA, assuming you are a member, their legal department has a list you refer to sell your aircraft. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Austin >Sent: Apr 30, 2007 1:46 PM >To: Zenith list >Subject: Zenith-List: Selling an experimental a/c > > >Is there a lawyer, or someone who has had advice from a lawyer, out there, >with a list of smart things to do as a prerequisite before selling a >homebuilt (experimental) a/c? >I remember some discussion some years ago, but can't find it in the >archives. >Thanks. >Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII >PS. Anybody like to buy a Spitfire? Have a look in "Trade-a-Plane" > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:59 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Firewall Question > So, does anyone have specifics on where the rivet line should go? On the plans dated 03/04 6-B-8 calls out two rows of "A4 pitch 40" rivets along the vertical U channel. It shown them set in from the side bends by 10 mm. The same page calls for "5 rivets A5" into the "gear gusset" (6B8-1). The side view on that page shows the rivets in an inverted "L" pattern with three rivets spread across the width of the side of the center U channel and three rivets down a line parallel to the bend in the central channel. 3+3=5 because of the common rivet in the corner of the "L". To me the side view shows that the placement of the rivets is bounded by the intersection of the standard edge distances on the triangular gusset and the center U channel. BTW: I don't know if you know or care but Zenith has redesigned and strengthened the pieces on the firewall. The triangular corner gussets have evolved into pieces 330 mm tall which reach all the way down to reinforce the 5/8 inch pipe for the bungee. The two doublers around the hole for the pipe are replaced by a single U-shaped piece. An angle is added across the width of the horizontal stiffener 6B7-1 and tied to it with a vertical plate. Angles are riveted along the two diagonal edges of the horizontal stiffeners. I've attached an image from the 03/06 version of 6-B-8. The new parts cost me $181 from Zenith. > The plans just show some hash marks, which I have never found to be accurate. The construction manual says: "The number of rivets is given in digits (so is the pitch - the spacing between holes); do not attempt to count the dots from the drawings!" -- Craig ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ch 701 prop pitch From: nyterminat@aol.com Gordon They tell you 11-13 degrees to start. I found 13 works well with a 912S. Bob Spudis N701ZX/912S -----Original Message----- From: cscsail@gmavt.net Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:05 PM Subject: Zenith-List: ch 701 prop pitch Just about ready to set the initial pitch on a Woodcomp 3 blade propeller on a 912ULS (Skyshop FWF) . Just wondering what pitch people are using, or what number to start with. Thanks, Gordon ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:05 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: CH750 From: "StolBrit" So, was it seen at Sun'n'Fun or wasn't it? I am tantalised by the prospect of a faster, beefier 701 (if this is what it's to be) and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is waiting for Zenair's 2007 announcement of a new airframe. You know google only turns in 5 results on this? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110083#110083 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket From: "Tim Juhl" I took a compromise route. I replaced the middle A5 rivets with AN bolts backed up by a large flat washer to distribute the load over a larger area. I have no idea whether the result is any stronger than the part would be as designed but it made me feel better :-) Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110088#110088 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bellcrank_557.jpg ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:16 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables All- If I were just risking a chunk of .025 I wouldn't care, but we're talking .040 here. Built a 4' Dave's brake over the weekend and this is my first job on it. The DL of the stiffener blank is 141mm (Top drawing), but the sum of the flanges and center of the finished piece (Bottom drawing) is 145mm. Am I supposed to add 2mm/side to the DL to account for the 1/8"R? Makes sense, but my question is, is this drawing the norm or an exception so I know what to do in the future? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:40 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables No matter what theoretical answer you get I would cut out a narrow 1-2 inch wide cross section test piece, bend it and check the results. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:23 PM PST US From: BATAR@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Selling an experimental a/c Do not archive I went to Sun-'n-fun 2 years ago and attended a seminar by a lawyer on this subject. He was a specialist in aviation law, and his bottom line was that if you have substantial assets, the best thing to do with the plane was to destroy it, to avoid any liability. If you did not have enough assets to make it worth someone's effort to come after you, then it would be okay to sell it. (Could anyone destroy a plane?) He did not define what level of net worth would invite litigation in the event of an accident. Al Massey ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:47 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables Craig- I just noticed that another part on the same print page had a DL less than the finished. Maybe the metal gets stretched during forming. I might be overanalysing. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables No matter what theoretical answer you get I would cut out a narrow 1-2 inch wide cross section test piece, bend it and check the results. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:14 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables Hey Bill: The DL always seems to be less that the total sum of the lengths. The best example of this is the standard "L", The plans show each side as being 19mm (38 total) yet the DL is 36mm. I don't think it is the metal stretching during bending, but in some mysterious way, once the part is formed, you are measuring the bend radius twice, once from each direction. I think that allows for the missing material, right? Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables Craig- I just noticed that another part on the same print page had a DL less than the finished. Maybe the metal gets stretched during forming. I might be overanalysing. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:14 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables Hey Bill: I forgot to mention I agree with Craig that one should make some test bends, especially since you are usuing a new brake. You will find a "sweet" spot somewhere under the nose of the brake tongue where when you position your stock with the bend mark, once you bend the metal, your mark will be in the center of the radius. I've sent pictures before showing bending standard "L" on the TAPCO siding brake. I've found that if I shove the metal under the tongue, so that the bend marks are barely visible when "eyeballing" them at about a 45 degree angle from above, puts the marks in the center of the bend radius every time. This is not too crucial when bending "L" etc., because if your off a little, you just wind up with one leg of the "L" a little longer that the other. But when you are bending channel, where you are trying to wind up with a specific channel width, you need to know where to locate the bend marks on YOUR brake to accomplish the correct radius, located in the right place twice, to accomplish the finished channel width. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, do not archive Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables Craig- I just noticed that another part on the same print page had a DL less than the finished. Maybe the metal gets stretched during forming. I might be overanalysing. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa Subject: RE: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables No matter what theoretical answer you get I would cut out a narrow 1-2 inch wide cross section test piece, bend it and check the results. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:10 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables The numbers from current XL plans (6-B-7 dated 03/06) are the same: The flat piece measures 141 deep. The two flanges are listed as 30 and 20. After the bend the three sides are 30, 95 and 20 with the developed length given as 137. I've read a number of definitions of developed length and still don't see how 137 fits in to all this. In what way (if any) do I have to apply 137? 30+95+20=145. I agree with Randy that difference between 141 and 145 in part comes from double counting the curve. On the other hand IMHO this is one part where the dimension of the two legs of the "U" could end up being over a bit and not cause any harm. I may be overlooking something but I don't see where some extra length in the legs would interfere with another part (at least on the XL). -- Craig ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:22 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables When I lay it out at 30 x 95 x 20 in 0.040" thickness, add the .125" bend radius, the outer surface DL is 141. The inner surface DL is 138. Looks like the 141 is good. I have always made the bends then trimmed the flanges when I did not have production tooling to position and feed the workpiece... Bill Naumuk wrote: All- If I were just risking a chunk of .025 I wouldn't care, but we're talking .040 here. Built a 4' Dave's brake over the weekend and this is my first job on it. The DL of the stiffener blank is 141mm (Top drawing), but the sum of the flanges and center of the finished piece (Bottom drawing) is 145mm. Am I supposed to add 2mm/side to the DL to account for the 1/8"R? Makes sense, but my question is, is this drawing the norm or an exception so I know what to do in the future? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:50 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Firewall Question Do not archive Strengthening the firewall has been a constant process. My HD plans just show a couple Ls where the triangular gussets used to be. I upgraded to the triangles, added the U channel on the cabin side, used the thicker XL "shelf" and retained the old L pattern from the HD plans in addition. I saw what Craig is describing in the current Kitplanes article on the quick build kit. Certainly the firewall and nose gear continue to undergo strengthening. There must be a reason .... Jeff Davidson -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 3:06 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another Firewall Question > So, does anyone have specifics on where the rivet line should go? On the plans dated 03/04 6-B-8 calls out two rows of "A4 pitch 40" rivets along the vertical U channel. It shown them set in from the side bends by 10 mm. The same page calls for "5 rivets A5" into the "gear gusset" (6B8-1). The side view on that page shows the rivets in an inverted "L" pattern with three rivets spread across the width of the side of the center U channel and three rivets down a line parallel to the bend in the central channel. 3+3=5 because of the common rivet in the corner of the "L". To me the side view shows that the placement of the rivets is bounded by the intersection of the standard edge distances on the triangular gusset and the center U channel. BTW: I don't know if you know or care but Zenith has redesigned and strengthened the pieces on the firewall. The triangular corner gussets have evolved into pieces 330 mm tall which reach all the way down to reinforce the 5/8 inch pipe for the bungee. The two doublers around the hole for the pipe are replaced by a single U-shaped piece. An angle is added across the width of the horizontal stiffener 6B7-1 and tied to it with a vertical plate. Angles are riveted along the two diagonal edges of the horizontal stiffeners. I've attached an image from the 03/06 version of 6-B-8. The new parts cost me $181 from Zenith. > The plans just show some hash marks, which I have never found to be accurate. The construction manual says: "The number of rivets is given in digits (so is the pitch - the spacing between holes); do not attempt to count the dots from the drawings!" -- Craig ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:43 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables BTW: on the current XL plans this piece is made of 0.063, not 0.040. Is that why the listed DL is different: 137 on the XL vs. 141 on the HD? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:07 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables If fyou want to work it out for yourselves, check one of the following for the formulas: AC43.13-1B/2A, AC65-15, Tony Bingelis' books on homebuilt fabrication. What you are seeing is the difference between the two side measurements of the .125" radius and the length of the arc swept in that corner. "Randy L. Thwing" wrote: Hey Bill: The DL always seems to be less that the total sum of the lengths. The best example of this is the standard "L", The plans show each side as being 19mm (38 total) yet the DL is 36mm. I don't think it is the metal stretching during bending, but in some mysterious way, once the part is formed, you are measuring the bend radius twice, once from each direction. I think that allows for the missing material, right? Regards, Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables Craig- I just noticed that another part on the same print page had a DL less than the finished. Maybe the metal gets stretched during forming. I might be overanalysing. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Selling an experimental a/c From: "PatrickW" This matches what was presented by a speaker at Oshkosh last year. Also, I know of a guy who "donated" his airframe to a local school after cutting the spars. He wanted to use the engine for another project. When I decided on a project to build, I intentionally did not account for resale value, since I do not expect to sell the plane. Salvage parts off it someday? Yes. Sell it? No way. Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110136#110136 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:38 PM PST US From: "R.P." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables You're seeing the "setback" or "bend allowance". http://www.engineersedge.com/bend_allow_calc.htm The "DL" (developed length) will always be smaller than the totals of the flanges because of the radius in the bend. Don't sweat it too much, just be sure your parts nest together nicely. Rick 601HD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Naumuk" Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 3:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables All- If I were just risking a chunk of .025 I wouldn't care, but we're talking .040 here. Built a 4' Dave's brake over the weekend and this is my first job on it. The DL of the stiffener blank is 141mm (Top drawing), but the sum of the flanges and center of the finished piece (Bottom drawing) is 145mm. Am I supposed to add 2mm/side to the DL to account for the 1/8"R? Makes sense, but my question is, is this drawing the norm or an exception so I know what to do in the future? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6:30 AM ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:16 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables All, update- .040 bends a lot harder than .032. Don't center on the edges of your brake, center on the hold-down bolts. Still works acceptably well. I wound up with 32mm, 22mm, and 95mm, which is what I was shooting for. WJN Tom- I tried a test piece and found out two things. 1. The DL is adequate to come up with the finished part. Probably a combination of material stretch and a trig compensation for the radius. 2. Dave says you can build the brake out of either 3" or 4" angle. WHAT FOLLOWS IS NOT A SLAM AT DAVE!! Sometimes a solution is so simple you can't believe you're so stupid. Standard 3" angle is 1/4" thick, but 4" is 3/16". I built mine out of 4", because that's what they had at the junkyard. It never occurred to me that a larger angle would be thicker. Duh! I'm not worried, because the additional radius makes for a stronger part, up to a point. 1/32"R is not that point. The target dimensions were 20mm and 30mm flanges, with a center section of 95mm. Going right to the flange lines, I wound up with 23mm, 33mm, and 93mm. So if I cut down on the flange mark lines by 1mm, I'll be right on for the center section, and within +/- 2mm for the flanges. As good or better than kit parts. By the way, the test piece of .032 bent like butter using the 4" angles. I have a total outlay of $18.72 in a 4' brake, not counting 2 rods, the electricity to weld the handle, and a 2 year old partially used can of Rust-Oleum. If there's ever a category for "Backyard invention of the century", I'll nominate Dave's Brake. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Henderson To: naumuk@alltel.net Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables Hi Bill, The metal does indeed stretch as you form it. Generally we refer to this as a Bend Deduction or Bend Allowance, depending on how it's being measured. Using Dave Clay's brake (which works well by the way), the only safe way of making sure it's correct is to do a test bend. Mark a piece of material with the actual length of the desired flange and use that mark to locate the test bend. Measure the resulting flange when you're done, and adjust the marks on the actual part by whatever amount your first flange is off. I know this is elementary. I don't mean to talk down to anyone, but that's about as complicated as it gets. You could use the standard formula for calculating a Bend Deduction, but Dave's brake isn't exact enough to result in a good part using this method. In fact, each builder's verion of Dave's Brake will bend slightly differently based on how far the top angle is offset from the bottom. Long story short, you'll want to make a test bend or just bite the bullet and hope you're first bend is close enough. If you plan to do a lot of bending on the brake, it's a good idea to start a chart with the offset values for future reference. Hope this helps, Bill Naumuk wrote: Craig- I just noticed that another part on the same print page had a DL less than the finished. Maybe the metal gets stretched during forming. I might be overanalysing. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: More firewall imponderables No matter what theoretical answer you get I would cut out a narrow 1-2 inch wide cross section test piece, bend it and check the results. -- Craig href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com the many =========== ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:49 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Selling an experimental a/c Keep the plane intact. Destroy any frivolous, lottery-minded plaintiffs. Spare the lawyers... we might need them for real estate transactions someday. Just my two cents worth. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: BATAR@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:27 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Selling an experimental a/c Do not archive I went to Sun-'n-fun 2 years ago and attended a seminar by a lawyer on this subject. He was a specialist in aviation law, and his bottom line was that if you have substantial assets, the best thing to do with the plane was to destroy it, to avoid any liability. If you did not have enough assets to make it worth someone's effort to come after you, then it would be okay to sell it. (Could anyone destroy a plane?) He did not define what level of net worth would invite litigation in the event of an accident. Al Massey ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Selling an experimental a/c From: "secatur" Geez, it must be TERRIBLE to live in such a litigious country !!! How do you ever get anything done or accomplished with the Sword Of Damocles alway hanging over your deals and transactions? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110153#110153 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:06 PM PST US From: CHETKRU@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Voltage Regulator Hi Folks, I am looking for information on how to find a Voltage Regulator for my Zodiac XL. I have a Lycoming 0-235-N2C that came supplied with a Kelly Aerospace Alternator, it is a 12v.,70a.AXL-8521-LS. Any thoughts or information will be greatly appreciated. I am finishing my firewall forward and this will just about complete that phase. I have tried most parts houses with out too much success. Chet Kruleski Las Vegas, NV N929RS ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:14 PM PST US From: "David Mikesell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Selling an experimental a/c I have sold a few ultralights and experimentals over the past 20 years and have yet to be sued over any of them. Yes a few owners have dented and bent them after buying them and nothing has happened. David Mikesell 23597 N. Hwy 99 Acampo, CA 95220 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "PatrickW" Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:44 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Selling an experimental a/c > > This matches what was presented by a speaker at Oshkosh last year. > > Also, I know of a guy who "donated" his airframe to a local school after > cutting the spars. He wanted to use the engine for another project. > > When I decided on a project to build, I intentionally did not account for > resale value, since I do not expect to sell the plane. > > Salvage parts off it someday? Yes. Sell it? No way. > > Patrick > XL/Corvair > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110136#110136 > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:12 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Selling an experimental a/c Geez, it must be TERRIBLE to live in such a litigious country !!! How do you ever get anything done or accomplished with the Sword Of Damocles alway hanging over your deals and transactions? It's quite simple, actually..... we threatened to sue the crap out of Damocles until he put the damned thing back in its scabbard. Dred ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:44 PM PST US From: "Les Goldner" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Voltage Regulator Chet, Suggest you contact B&C at www.BandC.biz. They specialize in aircraft electrical stuff and are very helpful. Rgds, Les _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CHETKRU@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Voltage Regulator Hi Folks, I am looking for information on how to find a Voltage Regulator for my Zodiac XL. I have a Lycoming 0-235-N2C that came supplied with a Kelly Aerospace Alternator, it is a 12v.,70a.AXL-8521-LS. Any thoughts or information will be greatly appreciated. I am finishing my firewall forward and this will just about complete that phase. I have tried most parts houses with out too much success. Chet Kruleski Las Vegas, NV N929RS _____ See what's free at AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:25 PM PST US From: Jim Norton Subject: Zenith-List: re: Selling an experimental a/c I'm on the front end of beginning a 601 XL. If anyone out there would like to get rid of part or better yet - all of their a/c, I would be glad to take it off your hands. As a contribution to a worthy person (me!), I'm sure we could come to a iron clad agreement that would absolve you of any and all liability. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:40 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Group insurance Did anyone find out about group insurance. I remember some talk about it a few months ago when I was more active on the list, but can't find any conclusions in the archives. I am waiting for quotes from AIG, Falcon, AVEMCO, and two others that I can't remember the names... I'll report back their different numbers when I get them all in. R/ Brandon 601 HDS / TD / Corvair 84 hours Now in Apple Valley, Ca. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More firewall imponderables From: "TxDave" Thanks for the kind words, Bill. I built my brake from 3" angle and didn't realize 4" was thicker. I'll be sure to change the plans to reflect that fact. By the way, I have a link to a great bend line calculator on my website. It was created by fellow scratch builder Larry Winger. It helps take the guess work out of figuring out multiple bends. Craig's advice for doing test bends, and Randy's comment on finding the "sweet spot" are right on the money. Dave Clay Temple, TX 601XL from plans http://www.daves601xl.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110170#110170 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:57 PM PST US From: "Roger Venables" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Engine mount and water hose conflict I am having a problem with the cooling hose from the front left hand cylinder: it is getting in the way of attaching the E1-1X steel bracket to the Engine (Rotax 912ULS) Anyone else experience the same problem and if so what is the solution. The photo guide says as follows "Detail of left side. If necessary, remove the engine and file a radius on the aft edge of the steel bracket E1-1X to make room for the hose" Trouble is it will take quite a chunk out of the bracket get the hose to fit and even then will constrict the flow, I think. Any ideas? Roger Venables .CH701 -installing engine ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rivets for Aileron bellcrank bracket From: "TxDave" Its amazing how creative the posters on this group can be. I used solid rivets in place of the A5's. Probably overkill, but... Dave Clay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110173#110173 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.