Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:25 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (David Downey)
2. 06:04 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
3. 07:01 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 07:33 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (wade jones)
5. 07:44 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Jaybannist@cs.com)
6. 07:48 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
7. 08:13 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
8. 08:13 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
9. 08:14 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
10. 08:19 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (kensmith@springnet1.com)
11. 08:38 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Edward Moody II)
12. 08:41 AM - Firewall centerline final (Bill Naumuk)
13. 09:31 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (David Downey)
14. 10:00 AM - Painting Pieces on Firewall (Michael Valentine)
15. 10:10 AM - AN-3 + Drill Bit Question (Michael Valentine)
16. 10:10 AM - Re: Painting Pieces on Firewall (Craig Payne)
17. 10:19 AM - Re: AN-3 + Drill Bit Question (Craig Payne)
18. 10:21 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
19. 10:22 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
20. 10:22 AM - Re: Locating engine mount holes (Bill Naumuk)
21. 10:43 AM - Finding firewall centerline-final (Bill Naumuk)
22. 12:42 PM - Re: AN-3 + Drill Bit Question (Jim Hoak)
23. 12:44 PM - Oakland area builders/fliers (Ashcraft, Keith -AES)
24. 05:49 PM - Off topic - wanted Chinook Plus II (Robert Schoenberger)
25. 09:06 PM - Blaine Aviation Weekend (Lyle Peterson)
26. 10:29 PM - Bottom Rudder Bracket attachment (chris Sinfield)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
The fuse side mount fittings are the primary transfer points for the loads from
the powerplant into the fuse. As such, as Paul points out, they control everything.
When the mount is fabricated or installed, it needs to fit those locations
- not those locations fit it. Keep in mind that the mount needs to fit without
straining, because that is a recipe for a cracked mount somewhere down the
road.
Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net> wrote: Perhaps I am getting this wrong,
but I think the notion of where to put the engine mount on the firewall has
nothing to do with the engine. After all, I am just a kit builder and put
the holes for the engine mount on the firewall according to the plans.
It seems to me the location of the firewall mounting bolts is dictated by the
longerons attached to the fittings on the other side of the firewall from the
engine. It is the longerons that dictate the location of these holes.
Once the mounting position of the engine mount is fixed by the fuselage design,
it is the problem of the engine mount designer to build a mount that fits these
bolts to the engine itself.....
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
All-
From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I found
out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab, and
Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where the holes are
supposed to go, getting them there is the problem. Every firewall
(Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a couple of mm's from
print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a problem because you can use
the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis center is more iffy.
A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately
locating the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it
into the archives. That's what I'm looking for.
Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to me,
but it would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
Thanks.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
All-
I know that this question was posted only a couple of weeks ago,
but everything but the answer wound up in the archives.
I just fabricated a firewall from scratch. What's the easiest and
most accurate way of locating the engine mount holes?
Let's make sure the answer gets in the archives this time!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Hi Bill,
Sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Perhaps you are trying to
make the engine mount bolt holes before it is time to do so.
It has been many months since I did this operation, so I don't really
remember how it was done. I do remember it involved fitting the
steel fittings at the ends of each longeron to both the firewall and
longeron at the same time. Meanwhile, the skin has to fit both the
longeron and the firewall flange. When all this is accomplished, the
steel fittings will dictate where the engine mount bolt holes go on
the firewall.
If my memory serves correctly (something that will get you in trouble
if you depend on it) one of the critical items was the forward bend
in the cabin bottom skin. This had to fit around the corner on the
firewall and the whole thing had to be held in place by the engine
mount bolts to make it work. All in all it is a nasty Chinese puzzle to solve.
My advice to you is to wait until you have all the parts in hand and
are ready to make it all happen before worrying about the engine
mount bolt hole locations.
Best regards,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 05:59 AM 5/5/2007, you wrote:
>All-
> From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I
> found out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair,
> Jab, and Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where
> the holes are supposed to go, getting them there is the problem.
> Every firewall (Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a
> couple of mm's from print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a
> problem because you can use the flat bottom as an origin. Finding
> the X axis center is more iffy.
> A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately
> locating the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make
> it into the archives. That's what I'm looking for.
> Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to
> me, but it would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
> Thanks.
>Bill Naumuk
>HDS Fuse/Corvair
>Townville, Pa
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Hey Bill ,I went with what the plans called for.856mm across the top of
the firewall. Bottom holes 15mm from bottom of firewall and 610mm
between centers. This will leave you with 460mm between the top and
bottom holes. Of course all this is started from the center of the
firewall .All lined up to the longeron locations for a good fit
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
All-
From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I
found out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab,
and Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where the holes
are supposed to go, getting them there is the problem. Every firewall
(Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a couple of mm's from
print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a problem because you can use
the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis center is more iffy.
A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately
locating the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it
into the archives. That's what I'm looking for.
Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to
me, but it would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
Thanks.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
All-
I know that this question was posted only a couple of weeks ago,
but everything but the answer wound up in the archives.
I just fabricated a firewall from scratch. What's the easiest
and most accurate way of locating the engine mount holes?
Let's make sure the answer gets in the archives this time!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Bill,
As I have previously posted, the recommended way to locate the holes is to drill
pilot holes in the center of the forward vertical plate of the engine mount
brackets. When the brackets have been properly located on the fuselage longerons,
drill the firewall through the pilot holes. Then drill out the pilot holes
for the bolts (which WW refers to as "studs"). William Wynne has said "It
is acceptable to slightly flex the motor mount in order to get it to line up with
the studs. After we weld them, the motor mounts are stress relieved so they
will generally slide right on the studs. There will be a slight variation on
plans built aircraft for the location of the holes, and the motor mount can
accommodate this up to about 3/32"."
Jay in Dallas
"Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>All-
> From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I found out that
the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab, and Rotax installations,
so that's not an issue. I know where the holes are supposed to go, getting
them there is the problem. Every firewall (Scratchbuilt, at least) is going
to deviate a couple of mm's from print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a
problem because you can use the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis
center is more iffy.
> A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately locating the
holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it into the archives. That's
what I'm looking for.
> Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to me, but it
would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
> Thanks.
>Bill Naumuk
>HDS Fuse/Corvair
>Townville, Pa
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Paul-
On the HDS you don't have a choice- all the components that are
riveted to the firewall use the mount holes as origins.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
Hi Bill,
Sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Perhaps you are trying to make
the engine mount bolt holes before it is time to do so.
It has been many months since I did this operation, so I don't really
remember how it was done. I do remember it involved fitting the steel
fittings at the ends of each longeron to both the firewall and longeron
at the same time. Meanwhile, the skin has to fit both the longeron and
the firewall flange. When all this is accomplished, the steel fittings
will dictate where the engine mount bolt holes go on the firewall.
If my memory serves correctly (something that will get you in trouble
if you depend on it) one of the critical items was the forward bend in
the cabin bottom skin. This had to fit around the corner on the
firewall and the whole thing had to be held in place by the engine mount
bolts to make it work. All in all it is a nasty Chinese puzzle to
solve.
My advice to you is to wait until you have all the parts in hand and
are ready to make it all happen before worrying about the engine mount
bolt hole locations.
Best regards,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 05:59 AM 5/5/2007, you wrote:
All-
From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I
found out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab,
and Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where the holes
are supposed to go, getting them there is the problem. Every firewall
(Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a couple of mm's from
print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a problem because you can use
the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis center is more iffy.
A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately
locating the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it
into the archives. That's what I'm looking for.
Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to
me, but it would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
Thanks.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Wade-
Agreed, the plans locations work for different engine installations.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: wade jones
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
Hey Bill ,I went with what the plans called for.856mm across the top
of the firewall. Bottom holes 15mm from bottom of firewall and 610mm
between centers. This will leave you with 460mm between the top and
bottom holes. Of course all this is started from the center of the
firewall .All lined up to the longeron locations for a good fit
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
All-
From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I
found out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab,
and Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where the holes
are supposed to go, getting them there is the problem. Every firewall
(Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a couple of mm's from
print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a problem because you can use
the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis center is more iffy.
A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately
locating the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it
into the archives. That's what I'm looking for.
Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to
me, but it would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
Thanks.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
All-
I know that this question was posted only a couple of weeks
ago, but everything but the answer wound up in the archives.
I just fabricated a firewall from scratch. What's the easiest
and most accurate way of locating the engine mount holes?
Let's make sure the answer gets in the archives this time!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Jay-
Since this is previously posted,
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jaybannist@cs.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
>
> Bill,
>
> As I have previously posted, the recommended way to locate the holes is to
> drill pilot holes in the center of the forward vertical plate of the
> engine mount brackets. When the brackets have been properly located on
> the fuselage longerons, drill the firewall through the pilot holes. Then
> drill out the pilot holes for the bolts (which WW refers to as "studs").
> William Wynne has said "It is acceptable to slightly flex the motor mount
> in order to get it to line up with the studs. After we weld them, the
> motor mounts are stress relieved so they will generally slide right on the
> studs. There will be a slight variation on plans built aircraft for the
> location of the holes, and the motor mount can accommodate this up to
> about 3/32"."
>
> Jay in Dallas
>
>
> "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
>
>>All-
>> From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I found
>> out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab, and
>> Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where the holes are
>> supposed to go, getting them there is the problem. Every firewall
>> (Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a couple of mm's from print.
>> Getting the Y axis locations isn't a problem because you can use the flat
>> bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis center is more iffy.
>> A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately locating
>> the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it into the
>> archives. That's what I'm looking for.
>> Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to me,
>> but it would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
>> Thanks.
>>Bill Naumuk
>>HDS Fuse/Corvair
>>Townville, Pa
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Paul-
Since I already responded to this re: HDS,
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
Hi Bill,
Sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Perhaps you are trying to make
the engine mount bolt holes before it is time to do so.
It has been many months since I did this operation, so I don't really
remember how it was done. I do remember it involved fitting the steel
fittings at the ends of each longeron to both the firewall and longeron
at the same time. Meanwhile, the skin has to fit both the longeron and
the firewall flange. When all this is accomplished, the steel fittings
will dictate where the engine mount bolt holes go on the firewall.
If my memory serves correctly (something that will get you in trouble
if you depend on it) one of the critical items was the forward bend in
the cabin bottom skin. This had to fit around the corner on the
firewall and the whole thing had to be held in place by the engine mount
bolts to make it work. All in all it is a nasty Chinese puzzle to
solve.
My advice to you is to wait until you have all the parts in hand and
are ready to make it all happen before worrying about the engine mount
bolt hole locations.
Best regards,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 05:59 AM 5/5/2007, you wrote:
All-
From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I
found out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab,
and Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where the holes
are supposed to go, getting them there is the problem. Every firewall
(Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a couple of mm's from
print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a problem because you can use
the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis center is more iffy.
A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately
locating the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it
into the archives. That's what I'm looking for.
Since I "Slept on the problem" a possible solution is coming to
me, but it would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
Thanks.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
You are absolutely correct in regards to the exact location of the mount
attach points. Any change in the location no matter how small should
always be approved from the designing engineers at Zenith. Change in
location will proably require some structural change for attachment.
Ken
Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> Perhaps I am getting this wrong, but I think the notion of where to
> put the engine mount on the firewall has nothing to do with the
> engine. After all, I am just a kit builder and put the holes for the
> engine mount on the firewall according to the plans.
>
> It seems to me the location of the firewall mounting bolts is dictated
> by the longerons attached to the fittings on the other side of the
> firewall from the engine. It is the longerons that dictate the
> location of these holes.
> Once the mounting position of the engine mount is fixed by the
> fuselage design, it is the problem of the engine mount designer to
> build a mount that fits these bolts to the engine itself.
>
> Just my ideas on this subject . . . .
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
The longerons do indeed dictate the position of the engine mount
brackets but the engine mount and its design and dimensins dictate the
location of the holes. I drilled the pilot holes according to the
directions (drawings and photo assembly guide) then enlarged them to the
correct bolt size. Many moons later, when my FWF package arrived form
Jabiru USA the mount matched up to the bolts pretty well, so I'd have to
say the instructions and fabrication of the mount are in agreement.
It is important to (A) locate the pilot holes accurately (of course),
then (B) back drill the pilot holes to the engine mount brackets, then
(C) enlarge them to size, preferably firewall and bracket at the same
time. If you err, make sure the error places the bolt hole slightly
farther from the base of the bracket rather than closer to it. If the
hole is too close to the bottom of the bracket it clashes with the AN3
bolts which attach the bracket to the longeron.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
Perhaps I am getting this wrong, but I think the notion of where to
put the engine mount on the firewall has nothing to do with the engine.
After all, I am just a kit builder and put the holes for the engine
mount on the firewall according to the plans.
It seems to me the location of the firewall mounting bolts is dictated
by the longerons attached to the fittings on the other side of the
firewall from the engine. It is the longerons that dictate the location
of these holes.
Once the mounting position of the engine mount is fixed by the
fuselage design, it is the problem of the engine mount designer to build
a mount that fits these bolts to the engine itself.
Just my ideas on this subject . . . .
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 12
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| Subject: | Firewall centerline final |
All-
Putting together the best of the list's comments and ideas, my plan
of action is:
1. Ignore the tooling holes as location references.
2. Concentrate on the outside contact edges of the firewall and the
flat bottom flange. Think about it. Eventually, those will dictate the
perimeter of the fuse and consequently the centerline. Dr. "Painless"
Dred is right on going to the widest point in the X axis.
So, what I'm going to do is box the firewall in with 2x4's screwed
down to my bench. Start by using the flat bottom flange as the primary
origin. Next I'll square one of the perpendicular pieces, then the
other, contacting the widest point in the X axis. Finally, a short piece
at the top of the firewall to keep everything from moving while I make
my Sharpie marks.
I'm going out to the garanger and start laying things out. If
someone comes up with a flaw in my logic I'll be back in to check
comments before drilling metal.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
on April 11 I posted this - maybe it is what you were remembering? While not the
easiest way it is a very accurate way to determine the "average" centerline
of an irregular shaped piece with supposed symmetry:
one way to achieve a near "average" centerline:
Cut out a cardboard pattern that will fit precisely inside the flanges of the
firewall blank from bend radius tangent to bend radius tangent. Perhaps some
odd shaped holes in the cardboard near the edges that can be traced with a sharpie
for matching positioning later?
Mark or cut the existing "tooling holes" holes in the cardboard from the firewall
Then turn over the cardboard and re-trim to fit as well as possible. Trace the
odd shaped hole in the cardboard on the firewall with a sharpie again to allow
repositioning later.
Re-mark or cut the hole locations in the cardboard.
Find the center between each set of holes in the cardboard and drill a 1/16"
pilot hole in the cardboard there.
Replace the cardboard in the firewall and position with that set of alignment
marks. Make a sharpie mark through the 1/16" holes in the cardboard.
Flip the cardboard and repeat.
Remove the cardboard.
Find the center between each pair of pilot hole markings: there is the centerline.
Note that you can do this even if there are no pilot holes to transfer from the
part. The greater the distance between the 1/16" pilot holes in the cardboard,
the greater the precision of this technique to find the center of a non symmetrical
part.
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote: All-
From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I found out that
the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab, and Rotax installations,
so that's not an issue. I know where the holes are supposed to go, getting
them there is the problem. Every firewall (Scratchbuilt, at least) is
going to deviate a couple of mm's from print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't
a problem because you can use the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X
axis center is more iffy.
A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately locating the
holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it into the archives. That's
what I'm looking for.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Painting Pieces on Firewall |
I know there was recently discussion about painting the firewall. That is
NOT my question! I want to know about painting all of the aluminum pieces
attached to the firewall. I have been using the Dupli-Color self-etching
primer from the auto parts store. It ends up with a slight matte finish -
green. Should I paint over the top of it before I rivet the pieces to the
firewall or after? Do I need to paint over the primer at all? Finally, if
I paint now can I just use some simple rattle-can paint from the auto parts
store as well? (I may paint the plane myself later, but I obviously don't
have that paint or equipment yet.)
And one last question - is galvanization a surface treatment? If I scratch
up the firewall a bit (as in deburring with a file), am I inviting problems?
Thanks, Michael in NH
Message 15
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| Subject: | AN-3 + Drill Bit Question |
Are #12 and 3/16 drill bits equivalent? I had been using 3/16 for all my
bolt holes and nut plates, but a while back on the rear fuse the guide (I
think) mentioned a #12 - I think it was an AN-3 bolt. Anyway, I thought it
would be easiest to just ask before it comes up for me again! If the plans
call for an AN-3, which drill bit do you pull out?
Thanks, Michael in NH
Message 16
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| Subject: | Painting Pieces on Firewall |
I'll only address the last question: yes, galvanizing is basically hot-dip
electroplating zinc onto steel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanize
-- Craig
Message 17
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| Subject: | AN-3 + Drill Bit Question |
http://www.patchn.com/drillsizesnumbered.htm
http://www.thedirtforum.com/conversions.htm
3/16 = 0.1875.
#12 = 0.1890 or about a 0.8% difference
-- Craig
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
See final
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: kensmith@springnet1.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
You are absolutely correct in regards to the exact location of the
mount attach points. Any change in the location no matter how small
should always be approved from the designing engineers at Zenith. Change
in location will proably require some structural change for attachment.
Ken
Paul Mulwitz wrote:
Perhaps I am getting this wrong, but I think the notion of where to
put the engine mount on the firewall has nothing to do with the engine.
After all, I am just a kit builder and put the holes for the engine
mount on the firewall according to the plans.
It seems to me the location of the firewall mounting bolts is
dictated by the longerons attached to the fittings on the other side of
the firewall from the engine. It is the longerons that dictate the
location of these holes.
Once the mounting position of the engine mount is fixed by the
fuselage design, it is the problem of the engine mount designer to build
a mount that fits these bolts to the engine itself.
Just my ideas on this subject . . . .
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
See final
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
The longerons do indeed dictate the position of the engine mount
brackets but the engine mount and its design and dimensins dictate the
location of the holes. I drilled the pilot holes according to the
directions (drawings and photo assembly guide) then enlarged them to the
correct bolt size. Many moons later, when my FWF package arrived form
Jabiru USA the mount matched up to the bolts pretty well, so I'd have to
say the instructions and fabrication of the mount are in agreement.
It is important to (A) locate the pilot holes accurately (of course),
then (B) back drill the pilot holes to the engine mount brackets, then
(C) enlarge them to size, preferably firewall and bracket at the same
time. If you err, make sure the error places the bolt hole slightly
farther from the base of the bracket rather than closer to it. If the
hole is too close to the bottom of the bracket it clashes with the AN3
bolts which attach the bracket to the longeron.
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
Perhaps I am getting this wrong, but I think the notion of where to
put the engine mount on the firewall has nothing to do with the engine.
After all, I am just a kit builder and put the holes for the engine
mount on the firewall according to the plans.
It seems to me the location of the firewall mounting bolts is
dictated by the longerons attached to the fittings on the other side of
the firewall from the engine. It is the longerons that dictate the
location of these holes.
Once the mounting position of the engine mount is fixed by the
fuselage design, it is the problem of the engine mount designer to build
a mount that fits these bolts to the engine itself.
Just my ideas on this subject . . . .
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Locating engine mount holes |
Recently archived.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Locating engine mount holes
on April 11 I posted this - maybe it is what you were remembering?
While not the easiest way it is a very accurate way to determine the
"average" centerline of an irregular shaped piece with supposed
symmetry:
one way to achieve a near "average" centerline:
1.. Cut out a cardboard pattern that will fit precisely inside the
flanges of the firewall blank from bend radius tangent to bend radius
tangent. Perhaps some odd shaped holes in the cardboard near the edges
that can be traced with a sharpie for matching positioning later?
2.. Mark or cut the existing "tooling holes" holes in the cardboard
from the firewall
3.. Then turn over the cardboard and re-trim to fit as well as
possible. Trace the odd shaped hole in the cardboard on the firewall
with a sharpie again to allow repositioning later.
4.. Re-mark or cut the hole locations in the cardboard.
5.. Find the center between each set of holes in the cardboard and
drill a 1/16" pilot hole in the cardboard there.
6.. Replace the cardboard in the firewall and position with that set
of alignment marks. Make a sharpie mark through the 1/16" holes in the
cardboard.
7.. Flip the cardboard and repeat.
8.. Remove the cardboard.
9.. Find the center between each pair of pilot hole markings: there
is the centerline.
Note that you can do this even if there are no pilot holes to transfer
from the part. The greater the distance between the 1/16" pilot holes in
the cardboard, the greater the precision of this technique to find the
center of a non symmetrical part.
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
All-
From the responses, I can see I didn't get my point across. I
found out that the print locations will work for at least Corvair, Jab,
and Rotax installations, so that's not an issue. I know where the holes
are supposed to go, getting them there is the problem. Every firewall
(Scratchbuilt, at least) is going to deviate a couple of mm's from
print. Getting the Y axis locations isn't a problem because you can use
the flat bottom as an origin. Finding the X axis center is more iffy.
A couple of weeks ago someone posted a method for accurately
locating the holes on a firewall and unfortunately it didn't make it
into the archives. That's what I'm looking for.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Finding firewall centerline-final |
All-
Your eye can fool you when trying to find an edge, but you can't
fool a 2x4. Attached are pictures of an idiotproof method (The idiot
being me) of locating a firewall centerline to within .5mm. I didn't add
text, because it should be self-explanitory. Feel free to e-mail me with
any questions.
The existing holes were transferred from the kit part layout and
plywood forms. Scratch firewall forming isn't an exact science, which is
what worried me.
One look at the "Discrepancy" pictures and you'll see this wasn't a
wasted effort.
Good building!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: AN-3 + Drill Bit Question |
Michael,
Over the years I've followed the old idea that a loose fit will only get
more loose with use and time. Use the smallest hole which will allow the
bolt to be installed. If the fit is critical you can use a reamer, but
that isn't necessary in most cases.
I saw a Midget Mustang I that had aileron flutter because of accumulated
slop in the system where # 12 drill was used with AN #3 bolts. We were
able to fix it by going to NAS 3 bolts and in one location using and
"oversize" ( special ) bolt.
A lot depends on the installation. I.E. fixed or moving joint. Snug is
GOOD, slop is BAD.
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Valentine
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 12:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: AN-3 + Drill Bit Question
Are #12 and 3/16 drill bits equivalent? I had been using 3/16 for all
my bolt holes and nut plates, but a while back on the rear fuse the
guide (I think) mentioned a #12 - I think it was an AN-3 bolt. Anyway,
I thought it would be easiest to just ask before it comes up for me
again! If the plans call for an AN-3, which drill bit do you pull out?
Thanks, Michael in NH
Message 23
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| Subject: | Oakland area builders/fliers |
All (any Zenith builders/flyers),
Any builders/fliers in the Oakland area (within 50miles or so)? I am
here on work related travel and have tomorrow (Sunday May 6th) free.
If you need a hand, let me know, or if you need an excuse to go flying
let me know also.
Since I worked today (Sat May 5th) I missed my chance to go to
Cloverdale QualitySportPlanes
Bummer!! Anyway, call me or reply back to:
keith.ashcraft@itt.com or
ch701builder@yahoo.com or
719-332-4364!!
Thanks,
Keith
CH701 -- 8% scratch
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
Do Not Archive
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Off topic - wanted Chinook Plus II |
List . . . if any of you know of a person who has a Chinook Plus II by
ASAP for sale which is located in the eastern part of the US or Canada,
please contact me off list at hrs1@frontiernet.net. Thanks. Robert
Schoenberger do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Blaine Aviation Weekend |
This is coming very soon but it should be a great fly-in. EAA Chapter
237
is having a fly-in pancake breakfast and lunch at Anoka County Airport
in
Blaine, MN on May 19th and 20th
Chapter 237's Famous Pancake Breakfast with sausage and beverage runs
from
7a.m. to noon and lunch of hamburgers, hot dogs and chili runs until
4p.m.
There are two really great aviation museums on the airport. Golden
Wings
Museum has a collection of beautifully restored vintage airplanes that
includes five trimotors. American Wings Air Museum has a collection of
warbirds from WWII to Dessert Storm. They also have a Wright Flyer
replica,
an original 1911 Steco biplane plus many other exhibits.
There was a Swift, an Ercoupe, a Luscombe T8-F plus a lot of other
vintage
airplanes, warbirds and the usual later model airplanes at last year's
event.
There will be a Hangar Dance Saturday evening with the Sights and Sounds
of
Dave Andrews Big Band. This has been a lot of fun for everyone that
attended in past years.
More can be found at www.eaachapter237.org
Thank you,
Lyle Peterson
President, EAA Chapter 237
Message 26
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| Subject: | Bottom Rudder Bracket attachment |
Hi Gang
I am using the latest plans 03/06 and have a Q. On page 6-B-2 bottom LH coner ,
it shows a lower rudder hinge. Ths hing USED to have 2 3/16" bolts 2 A5 rivets
and a tiedown bolt on it with a row of 4 X A5 rivets behind. (older plans) on
my plans it shows the rivets next to the tiedown bolt as being replaced bu 2
more 3/16" bolts , but the top RH corner of that Hinge picture still shows 6
X A5 with only 4 ++++.
Should there be 6 A5 rivets in the back row or 4??? is the 6 a mistake? as the
2 A5 rivets in the next row are now bolts??
Chris
Down Under..
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=111113#111113
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