Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:24 AM - Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area (Martin Pohl)
2. 07:44 AM - 601 Crash (Tom)
3. 07:47 AM - Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area (Gig Giacona)
4. 09:44 AM - Re: 601 Crash (Gig Giacona)
5. 10:03 AM - Dual stick 601xl (flyingmike9)
6. 10:09 AM - Re: 601 Crash (Tim Juhl)
7. 10:17 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (george may)
8. 10:27 AM - Re: 601 Crash (steveadams)
9. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (John Davis)
10. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Flydog1966@aol.com)
11. 10:48 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (John Davis)
12. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Juan Vega)
13. 11:12 AM - Tach wiring for Stratus (Bill Steer)
14. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Juan Vega)
15. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Juan Vega)
16. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (William Dominguez)
17. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Paul Mulwitz)
18. 11:38 AM - Re: Corvair Engine (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
19. 11:39 AM - Re: 601 Crash (Gig Giacona)
20. 11:49 AM - Re: Dual stick 601xl (Gig Giacona)
21. 12:04 PM - Re: Tach wiring for Stratus (LarryMcFarland)
22. 12:15 PM - Re: Dual stick 601xl (Dave Johnson)
23. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Dual stick 601xl (Kurt A. Schumacher)
24. 12:22 PM - Re: 601 Crash (PatrickW)
25. 01:11 PM - Re: Dual stick 601xl (flyingmike9)
26. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Terry Turnquist)
27. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Dual stick 601xl (Jaybannist@cs.com)
28. 01:34 PM - Re: Dual stick 601xl (flyingmike9)
29. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Paul Riedlinger)
30. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (kevinbonds)
31. 02:03 PM - Re: 601 Crash (Gig Giacona)
32. 02:05 PM - Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area (Craig Payne)
33. 02:21 PM - Re: 601 Crash (swater6)
34. 02:30 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (n801bh@netzero.com)
35. 02:38 PM - Re: 601 Crash (Gig Giacona)
36. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Flydog1966@aol.com)
37. 02:47 PM - Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area (Gig Giacona)
38. 02:48 PM - Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area (Gig Giacona)
39. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Flydog1966@aol.com)
40. 02:58 PM - Re: 601 Crash (revdjd)
41. 03:25 PM - 601 Crash (Bill Naumuk)
42. 03:40 PM - Re: Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area (Craig Payne)
43. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area (Craig Payne)
44. 04:32 PM - Re: 601 Crash (kevinbonds)
45. 04:57 PM - Re: 601 Crash (PatrickW)
46. 05:07 PM - Re: 601 Crash (Jerry Hey)
47. 05:12 PM - Re: 601 Crash (Steve Hulland)
48. 05:17 PM - Re: 601 Crash (Mark Sherman)
49. 06:05 PM - Re: 601 Crash (kevinbonds@comcast.net)
50. 06:25 PM - Re: 601 Crash (kevinbonds@comcast.net)
51. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (LarryMcFarland)
52. 09:42 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
53. 10:16 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Joemotis@aol.com)
54. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: 601 Crash (Paul Mulwitz)
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| Subject: | Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area |
Hi Zodiac flyers
Is there anybody in the LAX or SFO area that has a flying CH601XL and would take
me for a flight with his or her airplane?
I am building an XL here in Switzerland and hope to get the plane flying next year,
but never flew in an XL (nor any other Zenith-design) yet. Working as an
F/O for Lufthansa I fly to LAX and SFO regularly (e.g. next week to SFO, free
day on Sunday 20th may). I can either rent a car in San Francisco or rent a plane
at Torrance airfield, so anything within 1-2h-driving range from San Francisco
or 1h-flying range from LA would be perfect.
Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112013#112013
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Noticed a 601 in the NTSB data base.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 070509X00539&key=1
--------
Tom CH801
http://tompizza.webhop.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112020#112020
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| Subject: | Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area |
Martin you might get in touch with quality sports planes.
http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/
They are in Cloverdale which is north of SFO.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112023#112023
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News reports on the accident. Identify the owner. Not a name from the list I'm
familiar with.
http://www.woodwardnews.net/homepage/local_story_123090303.html
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112044#112044
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| Subject: | Dual stick 601xl |
i have a 601xl with dual stick mod
when moving the sticks in the back forth motion all is well but when the sticks
are moved forward then left or right the control rod end catchs the horn on
the control connection
the control connection has a dual horn on it not a single connection like on the
building pictures the control rod end is clamped between the two horns but this
then catches see pictures to understand (i hope)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112046#112046
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00051_128.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00050_145.jpg
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Here we go again..... another XL that came apart in the air. Apparently there
was nasty weather in the area and one might speculate that the pilot flew into
conditions that resulted in the destructive overstress of the aircraft. I found
a link to a local newspaper account that provides a little info but no answers.
http://www.woodwardnews.net/archivesearch/local_story_123090303.html
With all due respect to Zenith and Chris Heintz, as an XL builder I cannot help
but want to know why such things are happening. This is the third XL to lose
it's wings since Feb 06.
Tim
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112049#112049
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This is getting scary. Isn't this the third plane that had the wings fold
back or fall off?!
do not archive
George May
601XL 912s--73 hours
>From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
>Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:43:17 -0700
>
><wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>
>News reports on the accident. Identify the owner. Not a name from the list
>I'm familiar with.
>
>http://www.woodwardnews.net/homepage/local_story_123090303.html
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112044#112044
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Catch suspicious messages before you open themwith Windows Live Hotmail.
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Tim Juhl wrote:
> Here we go again..... another XL that came apart in the air. Apparently there
was nasty weather in the area and one might speculate that the pilot flew into
conditions that resulted in the destructive overstress of the aircraft. I
found a link to a local newspaper account that provides a little info but no
answers.
>
> http://www.woodwardnews.net/archivesearch/local_story_123090303.html
>
> With all due respect to Zenith and Chris Heintz, as an XL builder I cannot help
but want to know why such things are happening. This is the third XL to lose
it's wings since Feb 06.
>
> Tim
Before we get all bent out of shape, this sounds like a typical outcome of a pilot
loosing control in IMC conditions and subsequently overstressing the airframe.
Visibility 2 statute miles, heavy rain, scattered clouds 200 feet, broken
clouds 800 feet, overcast clouds 2,000 feet... not the ideal conditions for sport
pilot operations.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112051#112051
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I'm familiar with the accident in CA in which the wings separated (the
Hooker Zodiac) but what is the other accident thats being referred to ?
I cant seem to locate any other fatal accidents with wing separation in
the ntsb database.
Thanks,
John Davis
Burnsville, NC
601XL Quickbuild
george may wrote:
>
> This is getting scary. Isn't this the third plane that had the wings
> fold back or fall off?!
>
> do not archive
>
> George May
> 601XL 912s--73 hours
>
>
>> From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
>> Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 09:43:17 -0700
>>
>> <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>>
>> News reports on the accident. Identify the owner. Not a name from the
>> list I'm familiar with.
>>
>> http://www.woodwardnews.net/homepage/local_story_123090303.html
>>
>> --------
>> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>> 601XL Under Construction
>> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112044#112044
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Catch suspicious messages before you open themwith Windows Live Hotmail.
>
>
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Re-fresh my memory. I remember a Zenith with a spectacular break up in
California(?),something about drugs in the pilot,really large debris field. Was
that an 601,or 801 ? do not archive.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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It was a 601, no drugs, newly purchased plane, . Report at
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1
do not archive
Flydog1966@aol.com wrote:
> Re-fresh my memory. I remember a Zenith with a spectacular break up in
> California(?),something about drugs in the pilot,really large debris
> field. Was that an 601,or 801 ? do not archive.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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is that N701DP? paint on cowl looks like 701DPs from AMD.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>Sent: May 10, 2007 12:43 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
>
>
>News reports on the accident. Identify the owner. Not a name from the list I'm
familiar with.
>
>http://www.woodwardnews.net/homepage/local_story_123090303.html
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112044#112044
>
>
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| Subject: | Tach wiring for Stratus |
A question for those of you who are using steam guages and the
dual-ignition Stratus engine... Mikal says to attach the tach lead to
the negative side of the coil. How is that best done for the dual
ignition setup? Would a DPDT switch work, one side for switching the
ignition and the other side for switching the tach?
Thanks for any help or advice.
Bill
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never mind 701DP is registered to Dayton Pilot's club, different owner. WHo is
it?
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>Sent: May 10, 2007 12:43 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
>
>
>News reports on the accident. Identify the owner. Not a name from the list I'm
familiar with.
>
>http://www.woodwardnews.net/homepage/local_story_123090303.html
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112044#112044
>
>
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it was a kit built with continental motor, based in oklahoma. registered 2005.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>Sent: May 10, 2007 12:43 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
>
>
>News reports on the accident. Identify the owner. Not a name from the list I'm
familiar with.
>
>http://www.woodwardnews.net/homepage/local_story_123090303.html
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112044#112044
>
>
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The accident where drugs where found in the pilot was another inflight breakup
in an 801. The other inflight breakup happen to another 601XL in Yuba city California.
The first case was a 601XL where the wing folded up and crash, also
in California.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
Flydog1966@aol.com wrote: Re-fresh my memory. I remember a Zenith with
a spectacular break up in California(?),something about drugs in the pilot,really
large debris field. Was that an 601,or 801 ? do not archive.
---------------------------------
See what's free at AOL.com.
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Hi George,
Yes, it is certainly scaring me. I am expecting to do my first
flight in a few months (maybe early next spring). I seem to remember
reports of 4 structural failures in the last year or so, but it might
be only 3.
I wrote to ZAC asking if they are working on any design changes to
beef up the structure. I also wrote to the advisors at EAA to ask if
this is normal for kit planes or cause for alarm.
If I get any interesting answers I will post them to the list.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 10:17 AM 5/10/2007, you wrote:
>
>This is getting scary. Isn't this the third plane that had the
>wings fold back or fall off?!
>
>do not archive
>
>George May
>601XL 912s--73 hours
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| Subject: | RE: Corvair Engine |
Thanks for the information on the Carvair engines Bill. I went to
Pull-A-Part today in South Atlanta and both cars had the engines BUT neither could
be
turned with a wrench so they still have them. Jerry-GA
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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The question I have is who built the aircraft. The NTSB report states "Walker Zodiac"
and Walker was not the owner/pilot's name.
It's clearly VFR flight into IMC. Do LSA certificated pilots do any of the hood
time that PP do?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112072#112072
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| Subject: | Re: Dual stick 601xl |
Is that the factory mod? Because the one I got from Zenith isn't made like that.
It only has the single horn.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112076#112076
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| Subject: | Re: Tach wiring for Stratus |
Hi Bill,
I've got a schematic that may help you with this one. See link,
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/Ignition-Dual-Dizzy-and-TP4.gif
Larry McFarland www.macsmachine.com
Bill Steer wrote:
>
> A question for those of you who are using steam guages and the
> dual-ignition Stratus engine... Mikal says to attach the tach lead to
> the negative side of the coil. How is that best done for the dual
> ignition setup? Would a DPDT switch work, one side for switching the
> ignition and the other side for switching the tach?
>
> Thanks for any help or advice.
>
> Bill
>
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| Subject: | Re: Dual stick 601xl |
I had exactly the same problem, it binds when the sticks are fully forward,
but only when they are moved to the left.
My kit is the CZAW version (I'm in the UK), they weren't very helpful when I
queried it with them. The problem seems to be that the spacing between the 2
horns is too narrow to allow you to fit the bushes that all the other
rod-ends have.
What I did was to carefully grind back the side of the rod-end that was
fouling. I suspect that, when the elevator cables are attached and the
elevator stops installed, the fore and aft stick movement will be limited so
it won't be a problem.
Dave Johnson
601XL - working on the wiring
----- Original Message -----
From: "flyingmike9" <mlloyd9@csi.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 6:03 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Dual stick 601xl
>
> i have a 601xl with dual stick mod
> when moving the sticks in the back forth motion all is well but when the
> sticks are moved forward then left or right the control rod end catchs the
> horn on the control connection
> the control connection has a dual horn on it not a single connection like
> on the building pictures the control rod end is clamped between the two
> horns but this then catches see pictures to understand (i hope)
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Dual stick 601xl |
Hi Gig,
Dual stick was an option offered by CZAW.
Regards,
-Kurt.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 8:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Dual stick 601xl
> Is that the factory mod? Because the one I got from Zenith isn't made like
that. It only has the single horn.
Message 24
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Mr Walker must have been the original builder.
Looking at the weather reports in the area - particularly the dramatic changes
in wind direction at that time leads me to suspect convective activity.
Has anyone learned anything more about any of these most recent accidents...?
Patrick
601XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112088#112088
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| Subject: | Re: Dual stick 601xl |
thanks guys
dave were abouts in uk i am also in the uk in worcester
do you have a picture of your mod
did you get the bushes to fit or leave them out
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112097#112097
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Unless a crash investigation proves otherwise, I'm going to consider beefing up
the rear wing attachment points with a heavier doubler and larger bolt before
assembly. Wouldn't hurt.
Terry Turnquist
601 XL-Plans
St. Peters, MO
PatrickW <pwhoyt@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mr Walker must have been the original builder.
Looking at the weather reports in the area - particularly the dramatic changes
in wind direction at that time leads me to suspect convective activity.
Has anyone learned anything more about any of these most recent accidents...?
Patrick
601XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112088#112088
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
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| Subject: | Re: Dual stick 601xl |
My XL kit-supplied dual stick horn only has a single plate and ball-joint rod ends
at both the horn and the bellcrank.
Jay in Dallas
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| Subject: | Re: Dual stick 601xl |
hi
i think that it is a CZAW mod but it does not work it was bought from CZAW but
i would prefer the USA kit
have left messages with CZAW but as they no longer sell the zenair series they
are not much help (no at all really)
the updates on the drawings state that the rods should be made shorter this also
does not work with the CZAW dual stick kit
hopefully grinding away the small amount of the horn will do the trick
Read this topic online here:
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Actually it might hurt. All designs have certain flexibility designed into
them. By stiffening things up you might just be making it worse.
Having said that, I am not an aero-engineer but I do let those that are make
any mods to major parts of my plane.
Paul Riedlinger
paulried@rogers.com
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Turnquist
Sent: May-10-07 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
Unless a crash investigation proves otherwise, I'm going to consider beefing
up the rear wing attachment points with a heavier doubler and larger bolt
before assembly. Wouldn't hurt.
Terry Turnquist
601 XL-Plans
St. Peters, MO
PatrickW <pwhoyt@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mr Walker must have been the original builder.
Looking at the weather reports in the area - particularly the dramatic
changes in wind direction at that time leads me to suspect convective
activity.
Has anyone learned anything more about any of these most recent
accidents...?
Patrick
601XL / Corvair
Read this topic online
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Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo!
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/mail> Mail for
Mobile and
always <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/mail> stay
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Yeah, this is getting scary. We really need a better system for keeping up
with accidents. We really need to lobby these FAA investigators to take
photos of critical components in these accidents and allow them to be
viewed. We need to know if the bolts were in tact etc. How can we get this
done? I may go talk to my local office tomorrow to see what I can find out.
We need more info. Even the final FAA reports, are not very concise.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
Mr Walker must have been the original builder.
Looking at the weather reports in the area - particularly the dramatic
changes in wind direction at that time leads me to suspect convective
activity.
Has anyone learned anything more about any of these most recent
accidents...?
Patrick
601XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112088#112088
Message 31
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While that doesn't sound like a bad idea I would run the modification by Zenith
first. Making a bigger hole for a bigger bolt might create problems of its own.
I'd sure like to hear their response as I'm sure other here would.
Let's look as the facts as we know them. A low time LSA pilot flew the aircraft
in IMC. That is a situation that will end in a crash more often than not.
And an admittedly quick look at the LSA PTS does not show any required hood time.
So for LSA marginal VFR should be considered IFR.
ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> Unless a crash investigation proves otherwise, I'm going to consider beefing
up the rear wing attachment points with a heavier doubler and larger bolt before
assembly. Wouldn't hurt.
>
> Terry Turnquist
> 601 XL-Plans
> St. Peters, MO
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112113#112113
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| Subject: | Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area |
In addition to Quality Sports Planes in Cloverdale, Dragonfly Aviation
offers instruction in an XL in Santa Rosa (about a half hour closer to SFO).
Dragonfly and QSP work together.
Depending on traffic Santa Rosa is about 1.5 hours from SFO.
www.qualitysportplanes.com
http://dragonflyaviation.com
I've attached a picture of Dragonfly's XL.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Pohl
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 8:24 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area
Hi Zodiac flyers
Is there anybody in the LAX or SFO area that has a flying CH601XL and would
take me for a flight with his or her airplane?
I am building an XL here in Switzerland and hope to get the plane flying
next year, but never flew in an XL (nor any other Zenith-design) yet.
Working as an F/O for Lufthansa I fly to LAX and SFO regularly (e.g. next
week to SFO, free day on Sunday 20th may). I can either rent a car in San
Francisco or rent a plane at Torrance airfield, so anything within
1-2h-driving range from San Francisco or 1h-flying range from LA would be
perfect.
Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112013#112013
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STOP!!! This is an ufortunate crash but before we start altering the design
and/or questioning it, look at the facts. Read the NTSB initial report. How
high do you think an aircraft would need to be to spread parts 1/4 mile apart?
Greater than the 800ft clouds I'll bet. This guy was flying in IMC with heavy
rain on Sport Pilot skills in a non IFR craft.
It wouldn't take much in IMC to roll a plane over and exceed VNE and over stress
the structure. Not to mention if there was convective turbulance.
Look what happened to Scott Crossfield when his Cessna broke up in IMC. It can
happen to a certified airplane and can certianly happen to a 600lb homebuilt.
It's sad but, please don't rush to conclusions about your aircraft.
--------
601 XL kit
Tail, control surfaces and 1 wing complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112118#112118
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If there is a 601 builder close the FAA and the NTSB will usually permi
t a third party to view the wreckage,and possibly photograph the key joi
nts. I did try to get the FAA to give me some feedback on the Nicolas Ca
801 crash and he couldn't release any details. He did suggest I visit t
he wrecking yard that had possession of the debris. Several of us 801 bu
ilders were gonna pitch in and buy the pieces for the recovery and stor
age fee but the next of kin didn't want to sell. I also agree with Kevin
, we builders need a way to do our own autposy of the wreckage. With tha
t said I have full faith in Zenith Aircraft and their designs. Godspeed
to the pilot and I feel very sad for the family.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net> wrote:
Yeah, this is getting scary. We really need a better system for keeping
up
with accidents. We really need to lobby these FAA investigators to take
photos of critical components in these accidents and allow them to be
viewed. We need to know if the bolts were in tact etc. How can we get th
is
done? I may go talk to my local office tomorrow to see what I can find o
ut.
We need more info. Even the final FAA reports, are not very concise.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:22 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash
Mr Walker must have been the original builder.
Looking at the weather reports in the area - particularly the dramatic
changes in wind direction at that time leads me to suspect convective
activity.
Has anyone learned anything more about any of these most recent
accidents...?
Patrick
601XL / Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112088#112088
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
<html><P>If there is a 601 builder close the FAA and the NTSB will
usually permit a third party to view the wreckage,and possibly photogra
ph the key joints. I did try to get the FAA to give me some feedback on
the Nicolas Ca 801 crash and he couldn't release any details. He did sug
gest I visit the wrecking yard that had possession of the debris. Severa
l of us 801 builders were gonna pitch in and buy the pieces for th
e recovery and storage fee but the next of kin didn't want to sell. I al
so agree with Kevin, we builders need a way to do our own autposy of the
wreckage. With that said I have full faith in Zenith Aircraft and their
designs. Godspeed to the pilot and I feel very sad for the family.</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net>&nbs
p;wrote:<BR>--> Zenith-List message posted by:&nb
sp;"kevinbonds" <kevinbonds@comcast.net><BR><BR>Yeah, th
is is getting scary. We really need a
better system for keeping up<BR>with acci
dents. We really need to lobby these
FAA investigators to take<BR>photos of critical
components in these accidents and allow&n
bsp;them to be<BR>viewed. We need to know&
nbsp;if the bolts were in tact etc. H
ow can we get this<BR>done? I may go&
nbsp;talk to my local office tomorrow to&n
bsp;see what I can find out.<BR>We need&nb
sp;more info. Even the final FAA reports,&
nbsp;are not very concise.<BR><BR>Kevin Bonds<BR><BR
>Nashville TN<BR><BR><BR>601XL Plans building.<BR><BR><BR
>http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds<BR><BR> <BR><BR>do not&nb
sp;archive DO NOT ARCHIVE <BR><BR> <BR>-----Ori
ginal Message-----<BR>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics
.com<BR>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Beh
alf Of PatrickW<BR>Sent: Thursday, May 10, 
;2007 2:22 PM<BR>To: zenith-list@matronics.com<BR>Subject
: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Crash<BR><BR>--> Zeni
th-List message posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoy
t@yahoo.com><BR><BR>Mr Walker must have been 
;the original builder.<BR><BR>Looking at the we
ather reports in the area - particularly&n
bsp;the dramatic<BR>changes in wind direction a
t that time leads me to suspect conve
ctive<BR>activity.<BR><BR>Has anyone learned anything&nbs
p;more about any of these most recent<BR>a
ccidents...? <BR><BR>Patrick<BR>601XL / Corvair<BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR>Read this topic online here:<BR><BR>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112088#112088<BR><BR><BR><
========================
========================
nbsp;the Matronics List Features Navigator to&n
bsp;Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,&
========================
p;Same great content now also available vi
========================
======================<BR></
P>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 35
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I'm trying to figure out where the Walker name comes in. The FAA registration data
doesn't show it.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112121#112121
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In a message dated 5/10/2007 1:49:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
johnd@data-tech.com writes:
It was a 601, no drugs, newly purchased plane, . Report at
_http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1_
(http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060217X00209&key=1)
Now I know my memory can act funny some time,but I do not think this is the
one I remember. I'm thinking
this plane was at a good altitude,big debris field,parts landing in
agricultural fields(?),and canabis in the pilots or passengers blood,recently
purchased. Was it an 801 with the extended horz stab ?
'cmon, somebody tell me I did'nt hallucinate this.
do not archive
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area |
Craig, have you flown in that plane at Dragonfly? If so how did you like the Dynon
set-up?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112125#112125
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| Subject: | Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area |
Also, how do they rent it? It registered as an experimental.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112126#112126
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In a message dated 5/10/2007 2:28:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bill_dom@yahoo.com writes:
The accident where drugs where found in the pilot was another inflight
breakup in an 801. The other inflight breakup happen to another 601XL in Yuba
city
California. The first case was a 601XL where the wing folded up and crash,
also in California.
O.K.. Glad I'm building a 701. Has anything like this ever happened to a
701 ? I mean besides that guy in Wisconsin who keeps hitting trees ; )
Sorry, please do not be offended, ,just a weird sense of humor.
I actually respect your determination to get right back on the horse.
do not archive
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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I would be very surprised if Zenith Aircraft comes forward to address this most
recent crash of a 601XL even after the FAA does its investigation and issues
a report. The reason.............liability and lawsuits. IF the cause of this
most recent crash of a 601XL, and all the others, is a wing-related/structural
defect do you think that ZAC is going to admit that unless forced to do so?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112128#112128
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All-
There are so many variables in this accident, let's wait until
things are sorted out by the NTSB before speculating root cause.
Kick back and relax as best you can.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
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| Subject: | Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area |
Yes, I did during QSP's Jabiru FWF class last fall. The Dynons were fine -
somewhat dim in the direct sunlight but still legible. Dynon now offers a
brighter screen as an option. I had never flown behind glass before but had
no problem adapting. Bob Archibald was instructing from the right seat and
was able to read the display in front of me. We figured out that (unlike
mechanical gauges) LCD displays don't suffer from parallax ;-)
I recommend seeing an EFIS in direct sunlight before buying. This is one
good reason to attend a show. Dynon has a D10 with an internal battery that
they let me take out into the sun at SnF. And I was happy with my Enigma's
screen when I tried it in the sun at home.
-- Craig
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| Subject: | Re: Flying CH601XL in LAX or SFO area |
I don't know how it is registered but I flew with Bob Archibald instructing
from the right seat.
The FAA database gives the classification as "Experimental":
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=601ba
What are the regs on instructing in an experimental?
-- Craig
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I'm not in the mood to kick back on this one. The problem is that the NTSB
never seems to answer any questions for me. I was patient during the other
investigations, and even found ways to explain them away. This crash may be
explainable as well, but I'm getting a little annoyed at this whole system
of sit back and wait. There seems to be an information vacuum for us
builders when it comes to these investigations. We need to organize a
builder's advocacy group to approach the NTSB or FAA, on our behalf, to see
that we get accurate info such as pictures of attachment points etc. If
there was a problem how would we get reliable information to fix it in this
climate?
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL Plans building.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Crash
All-
There are so many variables in this accident, let's wait until things
are sorted out by the NTSB before speculating root cause.
Kick back and relax as best you can.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
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Kevin Bonds wrote:
> There seems to be an information vacuum for us builders when it comes to these
investigations. We need to organize a builders advocacy group to approach the
NTSB or FAA
Is this something that the National EAA can help with...?
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112140#112140
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To be sure, Zenith should conduct an in depth investigation of every
crash involving their aircraft and they should make the results
known. If anything in the design is unsafe and they say nothing,
then they are liable legally and ethically. Jerry
On May 10, 2007, at 7:30 PM, kevinbonds wrote:
> I=92m not in the mood to kick back on this one. The problem is that
> the NTSB never seems to answer any questions for me. I was patient
> during the other investigations, and even found ways to explain
> them away. This crash may be explainable as well, but I=92m getting a
> little annoyed at this whole system of sit back and wait. There
> seems to be an information vacuum for us builders when it comes to
> these investigations. We need to organize a builder=92s advocacy
> group to approach the NTSB or FAA, on our behalf, to see that we
> get accurate info such as pictures of attachment points etc. If
> there was a problem how would we get reliable information to fix it
> in this climate?
>
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> Nashville TN
>
> 601XL Plans building.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
>
>
> do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:23 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Crash
>
>
> All-
>
> There are so many variables in this accident, let's wait until
> things are sorted out by the NTSB before speculating root cause.
>
> Kick back and relax as best you can.
>
> Bill Naumuk
> HDS Fuse/Corvair
> Townville, Pa
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
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Kevin,
I agree with your concern about a lack of information. The FAA and/or NTSB
must give out better data concerning the cause of such accidents. With
several decades of experience in the aviation field, I suspect they will not
unless a good number of people demand better action (unless of course it is
a well known person).
In any case, this sounds like a weather related crash involving a low time,
inexperienced pilot who may have flown into conditions that he could not
overcome. I will wait for the final report.*
*
--
Semper Fi,
Steven R. Hulland
CH 600 Taildragger
Amado, AZ
This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned
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free email and attachments.
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Kevin.=0A=0AI think that would be called the EAA.=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A
Mark S.=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: kevinbonds <kevinbon
ds@comcast.net>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, May 10, 2
007 4:30:53 PM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Crash=0A=0A=0AI=A2m not in t
he mood to kick back on this one. The problem is that the NTSB never seems
to answer any questions for me. I was patient during the other investigatio
ns, and even found ways to explain them away. This crash may be explainable
as well, but I=A2m getting a little annoyed at this whole system of sit ba
ck and wait. There seems to be an information vacuum for us builders when i
t comes to these investigations. We need to organize a builder=A2s advocacy
group to approach the NTSB or FAA, on our behalf, to see that we get accur
ate info such as pictures of attachment points etc. If there was a problem
how would we get reliable information to fix it in this climate? =0A =0AKev
in Bonds=0ANashville TN=0A601XL Plans building.=0Ahttp://home.comcast.net/~
kevinbonds=0A =0Ado not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE =0A =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0AFrom
: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk=0ASent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:23
PM=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Zenith-List: 601 Crash=0A =0A
All-=0A There are so many variables in this accident, let's wait until t
hings are sorted out by the NTSB before speculating root cause. =0A K
ick back and relax as best you can.=0ABill Naumuk=0AHDS Fuse/Corvair=0ATown
=================0A=0A_____________________
Message 49
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Message 50
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Message 51
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In each case, I believe the defect is found in the person(s) that
prepared the plane for flight or the pilot that exceeded his
ability in impossible conditions. The defect is between the ears and so
far, I've heard nothing to indicate anything to the
contrary. Excess speed, missing bolts, bad weather, poor preflights or
what have you. These all play the major role in keeping
the wings on. Until "SLA" pilots modify thinking somewhat, they're going
to continue to loose wings and things with regularity.
The defect does not likely have anything to do with structural limits of
the thin Zenith wing. These generally exceed commercial
aircraft load limits.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
revdjd wrote:
>
> I would be very surprised if Zenith Aircraft comes forward to address this most
recent crash of a 601XL even after the FAA does its investigation and issues
a report. The reason.............liability and lawsuits. IF the cause of this
most recent crash of a 601XL, and all the others, is a wing-related/structural
defect do you think that ZAC is going to admit that unless forced to do so?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112128#112128
>
>
>
Message 52
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I agree 100% there used to be checks and balances in place to help save
people from themselves in aviation like taking away ones medical if they
shouldn't fly. But now we have a lot of our seniors that simply shouldn't be flying
that are jumping up and down because of the new Sport pilot class. I am at
odds right now with a similar situation with a plane I helped build and now I
am
not sure if the person should be flying it. When they take the plane out for
a taxi test for the first time and try and lift off in a plane they are
unfamiliar with it scares the hell out of me. Now I am afraid for him but I can't
stop him so I have to just watch and pry I guess. I just think this is going
to be happening more and more. I know it's hard to admit it but some people
are just not fit to fly but will do it anyway. And this has nothing to do
with the current crash it is simply a blanket statement.
I also am starting to wonder if this new class was a good idea at all.
Jeff
In each case, I believe the defect is found in the person(s) that
prepared the plane for flight or the pilot that exceeded his
Ability in impossible conditions. The defect is between the ears and so
far, I've heard nothing to indicate anything to the
contrary. Excess speed, missing bolts, bad weather, poor preflights or
what have you. These all play the major role in keeping
the wings on. Until "SLA" pilots modify thinking somewhat, they're going
to continue to loose wings and things with regularity.
The defect does not likely have anything to do with structural limits of
the thin Zenith wing. These generally exceed commercial
aircraft load limits.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 53
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Hey Jeff,
Lighten up freind it has been well proven that stupidity and lack of
personal responsibility does not need a license.
And out here in the middle of nowhereville there are plenty of older pilots
continuing to fly after losing there medical.
Hell, I would rather spin in than drinking myself to death while my wife
tried to nag me to death because I forgot to take out the trash 2 weeks ago.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 54
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I wish to argue the other side of the old geezer sport pilot privileges.
There are lots of older pilots who can't get a medical because of the
bureaucratic stubbornness of the FAA. The ones who are really likely
to keel over or pass out from their medical condition will lose their
state driver's license and not be able to fly even with the new rules.
The older pilots who have a lot of experience and higher level pilot
certificates have many things going for them. They have lived to old
age while flying airplanes. That means they have developed some good
judgement or they are very lucky. In either case, these are not the
pilots I would expect to hear about who killed themselves by flying
drunk or in filthy weather. Those are the kind of accidents that
seem to happen to low time pilots with poor judgement or just plain bad luck.
Apparently the pilot who lost his life in the recent XL accident was
a "New" sport pilot. It seems he fell victim to the poor
weather. If not for the fact that this is one of many recent
examples of structural failures on XLs it would be an accident not
worthy of much attention by the flying community. We would write
this one off as a pilot who chose to fly under conditions he wasn't
qualified for. Those are the breaks with new pilots.
It is unfortunate that ownership of a plane gives the pilot more
freedom to fly in horrible conditions than he would have if he rented
his plane from an FBO. I feel this is just one example of the extra
risk we all take by flying home built airplanes. This doesn't apply
to Heintz designs as much as it does to the faster and higher
performance ones, but it still applies to some degree. Just because
you can build a plane doesn't mean you have the pilot skills to safely fly it.
In any event, I applaud the new rule that lets older pilots like me
fly again without fighting with the bureaucrats for a "Special
Issuance" medical certificate. The FAA has always claimed that 98
percent of the pilots requesting special issuance medicals eventually
get them. Now they don't need them if they are willing to limit
their activities to LSA and VFR Day operations. That seems like a
good compromise to me.
For the most part, I feel flying a plane is actually easier than
driving a car. Airplanes spend most of their flying time a long
distance from the nearest solid object. Cars zoom around right next
to each other. Flying is still a lot safer than driving a
car. Especially for those flyers who have a lot of experience, if
they can safely drive a car they should be able to safely fly a plane.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 09:41 PM 5/10/2007, you wrote:
>I agree 100% there used to be checks and balances in place to help
>save people from themselves in aviation like taking away ones
>medical if they shouldn't fly. But now we have a lot of our seniors
>that simply shouldn't be flying that are jumping up and down because
>of the new Sport pilot class. I am at odds right now with a similar
>situation with a plane I helped build and now I am not sure if the
>person should be flying it. When they take the plane out for a taxi
>test for the first time and try and lift off in a plane they are
>unfamiliar with it scares the hell out of me. Now I am afraid for
>him but I can't stop him so I have to just watch and pry I guess. I
>just think this is going to be happening more and more. I know it's
>hard to admit it but some people are just not fit to fly but will do
>it anyway. And this has nothing to do with the current crash it is
>simply a blanket statement.
>I also am starting to wonder if this new class was a good idea at all.
>Jeff
>
>
>In each case, I believe the defect is found in the person(s) that
>prepared the plane for flight or the pilot that exceeded his
>Ability in impossible conditions. The defect is between the ears and so
>far, I've heard nothing to indicate anything to the
>contrary. Excess speed, missing bolts, bad weather, poor preflights or
>what have you. These all play the major role in keeping
>the wings on. Until "SLA" pilots modify thinking somewhat, they're going
>to continue to loose wings and things with regularity.
>The defect does not likely have anything to do with structural limits of
>the thin Zenith wing. These generally exceed commercial
>aircraft load limits.
>
>
>----------
>See what's free at <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>AOL.com.
>
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