Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:32 AM - Re: Dynon installation (Dave Johnson)
2. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: 701 wing strut (Gordon)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: Fuel Line Length between Wing Tank and Selector Valve? (Juan Vega)
4. 06:02 AM - Re: judgement (paul baker)
5. 06:10 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Products (ashontz)
6. 06:23 AM - Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (ashontz)
7. 07:31 AM - Recent crashes (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
8. 07:43 AM - Re: Recent crashes (ashontz)
9. 08:49 AM - Re: Recent crashes (Gary Boothe)
10. 10:45 AM - Re: Recent crashes (n787xl@aol.com)
11. 10:47 AM - Re: Wing Flutter (japhillipsga@aol.com)
12. 11:11 AM - Re: 701 wing strut (Jari Kaija)
13. 11:17 AM - Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (steveadams)
14. 12:08 PM - Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (ashontz)
15. 12:20 PM - Need help on elevator (hansriet)
16. 12:40 PM - Re: Need help on elevator (DaveG601XL)
17. 12:46 PM - Re: Need help on elevator (Michael Valentine)
18. 01:04 PM - Re: Need help on elevator (Paul Riedlinger)
19. 01:28 PM - Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (steveadams)
20. 01:40 PM - Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (ashontz)
21. 01:42 PM - Landing Lights (dfmoeller)
22. 02:01 PM - Re: Landing Lights (chris Sinfield)
23. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (William Dominguez)
24. 02:28 PM - balanced surfaces, flutter, and moving failure locations (David Downey)
25. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (Gary Boothe)
26. 02:40 PM - Re: Landing Lights (Gig Giacona)
27. 02:59 PM - Re: Need help on elevator (Stephen R. Look)
28. 03:03 PM - Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (ashontz)
29. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (Gary Boothe)
30. 03:33 PM - Re: Dynon installation (Bill Naumuk)
31. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: Dynon installation (Bill Naumuk)
32. 03:47 PM - Dynon Installation (Bill Naumuk)
33. 03:53 PM - Re: Need help on elevator (Bill Naumuk)
34. 04:00 PM - Re: Landing Lights (Tim Juhl)
35. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (David Mikesell)
36. 05:15 PM - Selective posting (Bill Naumuk)
37. 06:11 PM - FAA record searches (George Swinford)
38. 06:12 PM - Re: Need help on elevator (dgardea(at)gmail.com)
39. 06:15 PM - Re: Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes (Robert N. Eli)
40. 06:31 PM - Re: Selling landing gear for Stol 701Sp (bryanekholm)
41. 06:31 PM - Re: Need help on elevator (hansriet)
42. 08:18 PM - Re: Dynon installationDynon installation (Dave Thompson)
43. 08:20 PM - New Wing Testing - Amateur Builders (Michael Valentine)
44. 08:38 PM - Re: Fuel Line Length between Wing Tank and Selector Valve? (Dave Thompson)
45. 09:46 PM - Re: Re: Dynon installation (NYTerminat@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon installation |
Bill,
I am building an XL with the Dynon D100 and D120 in the panel. I have
just been out to measure the distances and the D120, with the
Dynon-supplied harness needs 7 inches behind the panel, that's allowing
for a reasonably tight bend in the cables. If you used a hood with the
right-angle outlet, you could safely reduce that by about 1 inch.
The D100 takes about an inch less again, as it only has a 25-pin
connector and far fewer wires connected to it, so it can be bent a bit
tighter.
Dave Johnson
601XL from a CZAW kit
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:30 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Dynon installation
All-
Many thanks to Larry Mac for measuring the space between his panel
and firewall for me.
Recent posts on numerous lists have insinuated that there wasn't
enough room to mount a Dynon in a Zenith with a header tank. Using
Larry's numbers, worst case scenario is I have 5-3/8" to work with.
According to the Dynon website, a D-100 EFIS is 4.51" deep. Should be
doable.
Thoughts? Excuse me, from Dynon owners, not speculators.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 701 wing strut |
I was wondering about weakening the tubing as well. Not so much from the
heat, but if in the process the strut was no longer straight it would
not be as strong in compression (-Gs). Several builders wrote me off
list that they had solved the alignment issue by heating and twisting
and I haven't heard of any failures.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 wing strut
Bill:
I would strongly suggest that you use the new strut from the
factory. They will no doubt have a fit at the thought that you heated
the tube and gave a twist!
John Read
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at AOL.com.
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Length between Wing Tank and Selector Valve? |
measure yourself from the fuel selector to the fire wall, then fire wall to tank.
I will be putting a through hull fitting so wings can come appart.
-----Original Message-----
>From: PatrickW <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
>Sent: May 15, 2007 11:11 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Line Length between Wing Tank and Selector Valve?
>
>
>Does anyone know the length of fuel hose required between the wing tank and the
fuel selector valve on a 601XL...?
>
>I'm looking at the bottom right diagram on page 6-K-2, but I do not see any figures.
>
>I have a nice 20' length of braided steel fuel hose that I'd like to cut to proper
lengths with minimal waste.
>
>Instead of me doing a rough guestimate, does anyone know the length so I can do
it right the first time?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Patrick
>601XL/Corvair
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113077#113077
>
>
Message 4
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After 35 years on instructing,I have found the hardest thing
to teach is judgement. Doing the right thing at the right time.
For a LSA pilot taking off into an 800 ceiling is BAD judgement,almost a
death wish. I teach students also to
use smoooth movements on the controls.Its like making
love,If you are smooth you can get buy with a lot,but being
jerking and hard on the controls can get you into a lot of
trouble with women and airplanes. Fly your airplane like it
was designed for and have fun. The 601 was not designed
for aerobatics, It was designed for crosscountry and local
fun flying.Any thing else is bad judgement...Be safe and
enjoy the same thrill as I have for 59 years..
paul baker
ch601hd 170 hours
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Products |
HF has a water seperator/oiler/regulator for $30. I have one. Works great.
[quote="challgren(at)mac.com"]Dred & Dave:
OK, I will start over and dump out the oil I added as per the instruction manual.?
The few drops before each day's use is what I had been doing with the other
rivet pullers I have.
Guess I should know better than to start reading instructions after 70+ years.
Thanks,
Stan
On Apr 12, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Edward Moody II wrote:
[quote]In my Harbor Freight puller, I only had trouble when I was putting oil in
only periodically. After a year and a half of that practice, it would not reset
after each rivet pulled. Once I began to put two - three drops at each work
session, it has never given any more problems.
?
Dred
> ---
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113131#113131
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
I respect Scott. He's a good guy and very intelligent. But from what I gathered
from what he said, it sounded like the he considered the wing to not have forward
sweep because it in fact has no forward sweep when tilted back for wing fitting
per the plans. Yes, at that angle it has not forward sweep, but return
the plane to level and it does in fact have forward sweep.
I'm willing to trust CH on his design skills, I'm also willing to question the
XL too being that it's a new newer design and they haven't fully described their
static as well as dynamic testing. I also have a 601XL sitting on my bench
and I can see just through comparison that the XL wing, to me, seems to be a little
anemic compared to some other wings I've seen. It may infact pass with flying
colors under static loads and MOST normal conditions, but when someone reports
wing flutter while flying over a power station, that makes me take notice.
I can see a bumpy ride, possibly even a really bumpy ride, but just a normal
cruise speed over a power station should not induce wing flutter. I've been
in Cessna 150s in some pretty turbulent air they would be akin to 3Gs for a one
to 2 seconds at a crack, it was a rough ride, but didn't induce anything like
wing flutter. I don't think it's too much to ask to double check that this
wing is in fact strong and rigid enough to cope with certain 5 sigma fat tail
conditions.
gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Andy,
>
> My point is that I have paid for a design from a proven aircraft designer, and
choose to follow his advice over everyone else's; especially your referenced
"aeronautical engineer." Who is this person? What has he designed? It's quite
possible to get a degree in Aeronautical Engineering and spend the next 30 years
designing air conditioning units for Boeing. The Air Force Academy graduates
a plethora of Aeronautical Engineers who spend the rest of their productive
lives flying commercially.
>
> Many jumped in to criticize the supposed "forward sweep," but it took Scott Laughlin
to describe how that's really not the design of the wing.
>
> Furthermore, I just read a post that advises more ribs!! For Heavens sake!! Do
you not see how dangerous it is to question the wing design? Do you see where
all this is leading? Do you really want some half informed builder to take the
advice of a non-descript lister?
>
> Add to this the fact that NO ONE is more concerned about his design than the
Designer. He has proven this in His last letter to builders. Anyone who feels
truly qualified to question His design should contact Him and offer their services.
>
> This List is no place to question the basic design of the manufacturer. I stand
by my statement that if you don't like this design, then don't build it! If
all you engineers and theorists want to discuss the pros and cons of a wing design
you should all meet for coffee at an internet caf on Saturday mornings.
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
> Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
>
> --
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113135#113135
Message 7
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I have been reading the post on wing failure and flutter of the XL. I am
building a HD so do not know how the XL wing is build or attached to the
fuselage. On the HD there is a main "I" spar attachment bolts, Rear "Z" spar and
leading edge skin attachment screw. Maybe someone can help me out. On the
flutter I thought the main reasons were loose hinge points, I would have to include
loose cables here, also loose connection between the ailerons. Wing
stiffness can effect flutter. Has anyone checked to see what type of hinge was
used
on the aircraft that reported flutter or wing failure. Jerry-GA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Recent crashes |
I think wing stiffness is the main culprit here. Aeroelastic analysis treats every
connection point as a spring. The more stiff springs you have the less flex.
Any wing will flutter being that one end is connected to something (the fuselage)
and the other isn't. The trick is to have the wing rigid enough that the
flutter speed is well below anything the plane is capable of. Even though the
HD has the same wing span over all, effectively the wing from a rigidity view
point is only 9.5 feet instead of nearly 12' due to the fact that the HD has
the center wing and then the two shorter wing panels. Any twisting in the HD
is carryied over a 9.5 foot span instead of a 12 ' span before it hits a mounting
point. That being the case, the individual ribs in the HD, even if the spacing
is identical to the XL, are carrying less twisting forces each.
[quote="Jeyoung65(at)aol.com"]I have been reading the post on wing failure and
flutter of the XL. I am building a HD so do not know how the XL wing is build
or attached to the fuselage. On the HD there is a main "I" spar attachment bolts,
Rear "Z" spar and leading edge skin attachment screw. Maybe someone can
help me out. On the flutter I thought the main reasons were loose hinge points,
I would have to include loose cables here, also loose connection between
the ailerons. Wing stiffness can effect flutter. Has anyone checked to see what
type of hinge was used on the aircraft that reported flutter or wing failure.
Jerry-GA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
See what's free at AOL.com (http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503).
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113152#113152
Message 9
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Jerry,
I don't think wing flutter or aileron flutter or elevator or rudder flutter
has ever been verified. There has been much conjecture on what some think
they saw in videos. Certainly loose cables could account for many control
surface problems. FYI- according to a search by Bill Naumuk, there have been
no reported structural failures on the HD model.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jeyoung65@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:30 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Recent crashes
I have been reading the post on wing failure and flutter of the XL. I am
building a HD so do not know how the XL wing is build or attached to the
fuselage. On the HD there is a main "I" spar attachment bolts, Rear "Z" spar
and leading edge skin attachment screw. Maybe someone can help me out. On
the flutter I thought the main reasons were loose hinge points, I would have
to include loose cables here, also loose connection between the ailerons.
Wing stiffness can effect flutter. Has anyone checked to see what type of
hinge was used on the aircraft that reported flutter or wing failure.
Jerry-GA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____
See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Recent crashes |
Gary B.
I attached an aileron yesterday and found them to be fairly heavy. They wou
ld need about 1.5 lbs at 6" to balance. I am assuming that wing flutter may
have happened in Oakdale crash.
I will balance my ailerons as a precaution.
James Schultz
Placerville (Swansboro), CA
601xl, tail, wings, ailerons & flaps done.
-----Original Message-----
From: gboothe5@comcast.net
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 16 May 2007 8:47 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Recent crashes
Jerry, I don=99t think wing flutter or aileron flutter or elevato
r or rudder flutter has ever been verified. There has been much conjecture o
n what some think they saw in videos. Certainly loose cables could account f
or many control surface problems. FYI- according to a search by Bill Naumuk,
there have been no reported structural failures on the HD model. Gary Bo
othe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section From: owner-zenith-list-ser
ver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Jeyoung65@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:30 AM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Recent crashes I have been reading the post on wi
ng failure and flutter of the XL. I am building a HD so do not know how the
XL wing is build or attached to the fuselage. On the HD there is a main "I"
spar attachment bolts, Rear "Z" spar and leading edge skin attachment screw.
Maybe someone can help me out. On the flutter I thought the main reasons we
re loose hinge points, I would have to include loose cables here, also loose
connection between the ailerons. Wing stiffness can effect flutter. Has any
one checked to see what type of hinge was used on the aircraft that reported
flutter or wing failure. Jerry-GA DO NOT ARCHIVE
See what's free at AOL.com. =C2-=C2-=C2-
________________________________________________________________________
AOL at AOL.com.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Flutter |
Jerry, I am the fellow that had the wing flutter over in the power plant the
rmal and I verrify it. You can read the post in the archives from when it oc
curred. I have the standard alerions and flaps on my XL as well as the stand
ard 12 gal fuel tanks. I have flown my XL in some really nasty stuff since t
he flutter event with no problems and I inspect before and after every fligh
t like a pissed off Nazi and nothing has shown up yet. I figure if they were
going to flold up they would have done so by now. Best regards, Bill of Geo
rgia
-----Original Message-----
From: gboothe5@comcast.net
Sent: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Recent crashes
Jerry,
I don=99t think wing flutter or aileron flutter or elevator or rudder
flutter has ever been verified. There has been much conjecture on what some
think they saw in videos. Certainly loose cables could account for many cont
rol surface problems. FYI- according to a search by Bill Naumuk, there have
been no reported structural failures on the HD model.
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serve
r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:30 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Recent crashes
I have been reading the post on wing failure and flutter of the XL. I am bui
lding a HD so do not know how the XL wing is build or attached to the fusela
ge. On the HD there is a main "I" spar attachment bolts, Rear "Z" spar and l
eading edge skin attachment screw. Maybe someone can help me out. On the flu
tter I thought the main reasons were loose hinge points, I would have to inc
lude loose cables here, also loose connection between the ailerons. Wing sti
ffness can effect flutter. Has anyone checked to see what type of hinge was
used on the aircraft that reported flutter or wing failure. Jerry-GA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
See what's free at AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________
AOL at AOL.com.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 701 wing strut |
> one piece strut that I have and said he would send me the
> part necessary to convert to the two piece strut which will
> solve the problem.
Was it a pipe, what goes inside to original strut?
If so, what are the dimensions and exact position
on original strut?
I didn't weld those struts yet, but I'm in the
position, where I have to do it sooner or later.
http://www.jarikaija.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
Ashontz, I'm sorry but I am having trouble following your reasoning. For starters
you ignore the fact that the latest 2 failures have pretty clear explanations
for the failures. Next you say a major problem is the forward swept wing, then
when someone explains that the wing is not forward swept in flight, you maintain
that it is when sitting on the ground. Huh? I think most stresses on an
aircraft are generally imposed while in flight. Then you cite the RV wing having
a bunch more ribs and only 1 failure, so you conclude that the xl needs more
ribs. When it's pointed out that RV wings fail with some regularity, you start
making up reasons why the RV wings probably fail. The you use a report of
turbulence over a cooling tower that lasted quite a while, and did not become
worse with increasing speed, as a starting point to postulate that the XL wing
was experiencing flutter, and go off on that tangent and why the xl wing needs
to be stiffer. You want to beef up the spar cap and beef up the wing attach
points and add more ribs. Why not double the skin thickness too. More is always
better. right? Where is the calculated weakest point of the xl wing? How will
the loads on the spar, wing attach points, and skin change with the addition
of ribs? What would happen to say, the 747 wing if you stiffenned it so as not
to allow all the flex and twisting experienced during flight?
I don't think CH is a god, however he does know something about aircraft design.
All I have seen in your posts is speculation without any factual basis, a disregard
for any facts offered by other posters, a rush to fix problems you don't
know exist and don't understand how to fix, and despite whatever degrees or
credentials you may have, no significant knowledge of aircraft design.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113175#113175
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
Do you you always fly at 9 degrees angle of attack? If so then you'll never have
forward sweep.
Are they clear, maybe. I also know that 20+ years of 601HDs have resulted in no
structural failures, whereas 6 years of 601XLs have resulted in 4 or 5. Statistically
that's backwards if they're both rated the same in load limit. I doubt
there's 5 times as many 601XLs as HD and HDSs over the past 20 years. Even if
there were twice as many XLs as all the others combined, that's still statistically
backwards indicating something special about the XL.
Again, back to the Lies, Damn Lies, and statistics. How many RVs are there over
20 years? How amyn people tend to fly them as personal aerobatic jets. The RV
wing is in fact a thin wing.
I'm not coming down on CH here, I'm just distinctly interested in what's going
on with this wing if anything. Pardon me for trying to be as safe as possible.
Personally, I like to know. I like to know to the point of zero doubt. That's
just the way I am. This is how I conduct my life. You don't have to like it.
If I'm suspicious of something I will investigate it til I'm comfortable with
the knowledge gleaned, BY ME. Not by someone that says everything will be ok.
As far as the 747 wing, I did say every wing will flutter at some point/speed.
To so trying to totally stop flutter is pointless. Trying to eliminate it below
Vne is not pointless though. Also, the flutter is the stress that the wing is
experiencing. Eliminate the flutter and eliminate the stress.
Why not double the skin thickness too
Why, because apparently the tension force of the skin is sufficient IN TENSION.
It's also probably sufficient in compression provided the skin can be keep aligned
(ribs do that for both).
As far as the spar cap, I didn't suggest beefing that up, I suggested using a angled
extrusion, same thinkness as the cap, that's 20mm wide to hold the skin
on the spar. Why use .032 on top of a 1/4" cap when you could have just used an
angled extrusion for the top cap that's 90 degrees? It's gotta be stronger than
the .032 cap angle. Maybe not a big deal, but now that I think about it, why
not go for a one piece deal that's even stronger.
I don't think CH is a god, however he does know something about aircraft design.
All I have seen in your posts is speculation without any factual basis, a disregard
for any facts offered by other posters, a rush to fix problems you don't
know exist and don't understand how to fix, and despite whatever degrees or
credentials you may have, no significant knowledge of aircraft design.
Are you suggesting I can't think for myself. I haven't once sent you a form that
says you must accept my theories and change your aircraft accordingly. I'm just
thinking out load as are other people on the topic, and some of them are of
the same mindset as me about this. Are you trying to stifle my inquisitiveness
of the subject for some reason? I take getting in an airplane and relying on
it seriously. I consider this a pre-pre-flight walk around. When I hear of wing
flutter and structural failures of a plane I'm building I take note. Sorry
for making you uncomfortable. Have I struck a nerve as far as things you haven't
thought of about this wing that now has you thinking. In some ways I hope
so because it's for the better. Maybe there's absolutely nothing wrong with this
wing and it was just yahoos acting like a-holes. But I'd have to think over
the 20+ years of HDs and HDSs there were plenty of yahoos that flew them that
apparently never ripped the wings off. Personally, I have no intention of flying
ine like it's a fighter yet, I'd also like to never experience wing flutter
(for even 1/10th of a second) like the guy did over the power plant.
As for your disjointed comments, hopefully I've put them to rest.
steveadams wrote:
> Ashontz, I'm sorry but I am having trouble following your reasoning. For starters
you ignore the fact that the latest 2 failures have pretty clear explanations
for the failures. Next you say a major problem is the forward swept wing,
then when someone explains that the wing is not forward swept in flight, you
maintain that it is when sitting on the ground. Huh? I think most stresses on
an aircraft are generally imposed while in flight. Then you cite the RV wing having
a bunch more ribs and only 1 failure, so you conclude that the xl needs
more ribs. When it's pointed out that RV wings fail with some regularity, you
start making up reasons why the RV wings probably fail. The you use a report of
turbulence over a cooling tower that lasted quite a while, and did not become
worse with increasing speed, as a starting point to postulate that the XL wing
was experiencing flutter, and go off on that tangent and why the xl wing needs
to be stiffer. You want to beef up the spar cap and beef up the wing attach
points and add more ribs. Why not double the skin thickness too. More is always
better. right? Where is the calculated weakest point of the xl wing? How will
the loads on the spar, wing attach points, and skin change with the addition
of ribs? What would happen to say, the 747 wing if you stiffenned it so as
not to allow all the flex and twisting experienced during flight?
>
> I don't think CH is a god, however he does know something about aircraft design.
All I have seen in your posts is speculation without any factual basis, a
disregard for any facts offered by other posters, a rush to fix problems you don't
know exist and don't understand how to fix, and despite whatever degrees
or credentials you may have, no significant knowledge of aircraft design.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113177#113177
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| Subject: | Need help on elevator |
Friends,
I'm making good progress on my 601 (XL) tail section.
I'm now at the stage to make the cut-out for the elevator horn doubler.
I drilled the 3 stress relief holes, but I see no way to cut out the triangle with
snips. (At least not without destroying the skin).
Has anyone a better method than that described in the building plans?
Thanks,
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113179#113179
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| Subject: | Re: Need help on elevator |
Drill a hole in the middle of the intended cut-out big enough to get your tin snips
in. Cut a hole from the center to each corner hole. Use a shop or Olfa
knife and score a lline between each corner hole. Use pliers and bend next to
the score lines and you will have a neat triangle cut-out. Use can use this
scoring method of cutting aluminum in other areas to get straight cuts. Just
be careful with your scoring so the knife does not slip.
Good Luck!
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
starting fueslage.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113180#113180
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| Subject: | Re: Need help on elevator |
I don't recall what was described in the plans. For this kind of odd shape
(or where pieces were too thick) I drilled a bunch of holes next to each
other and then just broke it off. YOu should also pick up a nibbler if you
don't have one - it is extremely handy for snipping in small spaces.
Michael in NH
do not archive
On 5/16/07, hansriet <hansinla@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> Friends,
>
> I'm making good progress on my 601 (XL) tail section.
> I'm now at the stage to make the cut-out for the elevator horn doubler.
>
> I drilled the 3 stress relief holes, but I see no way to cut out the
> triangle with snips. (At least not without destroying the skin).
>
> Has anyone a better method than that described in the building plans?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hans
>
>
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| Subject: | Need help on elevator |
Hans:
I used a unibit and drilled until I got close to the edges and then hand
filed the rest.
Paul Riedlinger
paulried@rogers.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hansriet
Sent: May 16, 2007 3:19 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Need help on elevator
Friends,
I'm making good progress on my 601 (XL) tail section.
I'm now at the stage to make the cut-out for the elevator horn doubler.
I drilled the 3 stress relief holes, but I see no way to cut out the
triangle with snips. (At least not without destroying the skin).
Has anyone a better method than that described in the building plans?
Thanks,
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113179#113179
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
ashontz wrote:
>
>
> I'm not coming down on CH here, I'm just distinctly interested in what's going
on with this wing if anything. Pardon me for trying to be as safe as possible.
Personally, I like to know. I like to know to the point of zero doubt. That's
just the way I am. This is how I conduct my life. You don't have to like it.
If I'm suspicious of something I will investigate it til I'm comfortable with
the knowledge gleaned, BY ME. Not by someone that says everything will be ok.
Everyone wants to know the answer, but what "knowledge" have you gleaned? Do you
know the weak point of the wing, or are you taking a wild a__ guess and throwing
added aluminum at it. Do you know the results of the stress analysis, or
is that factual knowledge unnecissary detail. Do you know how much addition stress
will be transfered to the skins and wing attach points if you stiffin up
the wing? What are the results of flutter testing on the XL, by both the factory
and numerous builders? How does a designer determine how many ribs are required,
how thick the skins need to be, how beefy the spar needs to be, and how
strong the attach points need to be? How does a designer determine whether mass
balancing is required or aerodynamic balancing of control surfaces is sufficient?
[/quote]As far as the 747 wing, I did say every wing will flutter at some point/speed.
To so trying to totally stop flutter is pointless. Trying to eliminate
it below Vne is not pointless though. Also, the flutter is the stress that the
wing is experiencing. Eliminate the flutter and eliminate the stress.
[/quote]
I didn't say anything about flutter, I said stiffen the wing so it doesn't flex.
If you did that the wing would fail.
[/quote]
As far as the spar cap, I didn't suggest beefing that up, I suggested using a angled
extrusion, same thinkness as the cap, that's 20mm wide to hold the skin
on the spar. Why use .032 on top of a 1/4" cap when you could have just used an
angled extrusion for the top cap that's 90 degrees? It's gotta be stronger than
the .032 cap angle. Maybe not a big deal, but now that I think about it, why
not go for a one piece deal that's even stronger.
[/quote]
So if you strengthen the cap, how is that going to change the distribution of forces
in the wing? If it makes the wing stiffer, how much are you going to need
to beef up the wing attach points to account for to redistribution of forces?
[/quote]
Are you suggesting I can't think for myself. I haven't once sent you a form that
says you must accept my theories and change your aircraft accordingly. I'm just
thinking out load as are other people on the topic, and some of them are of
the same mindset as me about this. Are you trying to stifle my inquisitiveness
of the subject for some reason? I take getting in an airplane and relying on
it seriously. I consider this a pre-pre-flight walk around. When I hear of wing
flutter and structural failures of a plane I'm building I take note. Sorry
for making you uncomfortable. Have I struck a nerve as far as things you haven't
thought of about this wing that now has you thinking. In some ways I hope
so because it's for the better. Maybe there's absolutely nothing wrong with this
wing and it was just yahoos acting like a-holes. But I'd have to think over
the 20+ years of HDs and HDSs there were plenty of yahoos that flew them that
apparently never ripped the wings off. Personally, I have no intention of flying
ine like it's a fighter yet, I'd also like to never experience wing flutter
(for even 1/10th of a second) like the guy did over the power plant.
[/quote]
No one is trying to stiffle your inquisitiveness. Be inquisitive and seek knowledge.
However, to find an answer requires that you take the time and effort to
understand the question. You've gone on and on with answers, but don't have any
idea what question you are trying to answer. Somebody might read what you say,
think it sounds intellegent, and modify their plane. That's everybody's choice
to make, but I am trying to point out that the things you are saying have
little basis in fact and are not well thought out. I'm not saying you're wrong,
just that before you or anyone else starts making changes to their wings you
had better make darn sure you know what you are doing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113184#113184
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
I didn't say anything about flutter, I said stiffen the wing so it doesn't flex.
If you did that the wing would fail
Why would the wing fail? Lets see, you torsionally stiffen it so that flutter and
over-stress doesn't occur in the first place so the wing doesn't fold. So why
would it fail? This isn't a 747 with a 170 foot wing span or whatever they
have where the wing needs to flex a whole bunch less the attach points give. In
the accounts where the wings folded on the 601xl, the attach points were fine,
the wing itself folded. Besides, were ALREADY talking about a failing wing
which the HD and HDS has never experienced.
steveadams wrote:
>
> ashontz wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm not coming down on CH here, I'm just distinctly interested in what's going
on with this wing if anything. Pardon me for trying to be as safe as possible.
Personally, I like to know. I like to know to the point of zero doubt. That's
just the way I am. This is how I conduct my life. You don't have to like
it. If I'm suspicious of something I will investigate it til I'm comfortable with
the knowledge gleaned, BY ME. Not by someone that says everything will be
ok.
>
>
> Everyone wants to know the answer, but what "knowledge" have you gleaned? Do
you know the weak point of the wing, or are you taking a wild a__ guess and throwing
added aluminum at it. Do you know the results of the stress analysis, or
is that factual knowledge unnecissary detail. Do you know how much addition
stress will be transfered to the skins and wing attach points if you stiffin up
the wing? What are the results of flutter testing on the XL, by both the factory
and numerous builders? How does a designer determine how many ribs are required,
how thick the skins need to be, how beefy the spar needs to be, and how
strong the attach points need to be? How does a designer determine whether mass
balancing is required or aerodynamic balancing of control surfaces is sufficient?
>
>
As far as the 747 wing, I did say every wing will flutter at some point/speed.
To so trying to totally stop flutter is pointless. Trying to eliminate it below
Vne is not pointless though. Also, the flutter is the stress that the wing is
experiencing. Eliminate the flutter and eliminate the stress.
[/quote]
I didn't say anything about flutter, I said stiffen the wing so it doesn't flex.
If you did that the wing would fail.
[/quote]
As far as the spar cap, I didn't suggest beefing that up, I suggested using a angled
extrusion, same thinkness as the cap, that's 20mm wide to hold the skin
on the spar. Why use .032 on top of a 1/4" cap when you could have just used an
angled extrusion for the top cap that's 90 degrees? It's gotta be stronger than
the .032 cap angle. Maybe not a big deal, but now that I think about it, why
not go for a one piece deal that's even stronger.
[/quote]
So if you strengthen the cap, how is that going to change the distribution of forces
in the wing? If it makes the wing stiffer, how much are you going to need
to beef up the wing attach points to account for to redistribution of forces?
[/quote]
Are you suggesting I can't think for myself. I haven't once sent you a form that
says you must accept my theories and change your aircraft accordingly. I'm just
thinking out load as are other people on the topic, and some of them are of
the same mindset as me about this. Are you trying to stifle my inquisitiveness
of the subject for some reason? I take getting in an airplane and relying on
it seriously. I consider this a pre-pre-flight walk around. When I hear of wing
flutter and structural failures of a plane I'm building I take note. Sorry
for making you uncomfortable. Have I struck a nerve as far as things you haven't
thought of about this wing that now has you thinking. In some ways I hope
so because it's for the better. Maybe there's absolutely nothing wrong with this
wing and it was just yahoos acting like a-holes. But I'd have to think over
the 20+ years of HDs and HDSs there were plenty of yahoos that flew them that
apparently never ripped the wings off. Personally, I have no intention of flying
ine like it's a fighter yet, I'd also like to never experience wing flutter
(for even 1/10th of a second) like the guy did over the power plant.
[/quote]
No one is trying to stiffle your inquisitiveness. Be inquisitive and seek knowledge.
However, to find an answer requires that you take the time and effort to
understand the question. You've gone on and on with answers, but don't have any
idea what question you are trying to answer. Somebody might read what you say,
think it sounds intellegent, and modify their plane. That's everybody's choice
to make, but I am trying to point out that the things you are saying have
little basis in fact and are not well thought out. I'm not saying you're wrong,
just that before you or anyone else starts making changes to their wings you
had better make darn sure you know what you are doing.[/quote]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113185#113185
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I hate to deflect the focus of the discussions here off of the accident/wing issue,
but I have a silly question about the Zenith implementation of landing/taxi
lights. I hope someone can set me straight on this.
I have always been under the impression that the focus zone of landing vs. taxi
lights is different and may also entail different power ratings. I don't have
them on my XL, but I'm curious about Zenith's implementation.
1. The Zenith kit pricing page shows the same lamp with no special lens in front
for each light.
2. It appears from several schematics I've seen that the intent is not to drive
them simultaneously.
So, what makes one a landing light and the other a taxi light? And why not just
have 1 light? Exactly what is the operational usage of these lamps here?
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113187#113187
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| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
On mine, I have one adjusted down towards the ground a little (taxi) and the other
in line with the wing (landing) if one blows the other can be used either
way..
Safety first.
Chris..
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113189#113189
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
Do you you always fly at 9 degrees angle of attack? If so then you'll never have
forward sweep.
Are they clear, maybe. I also know that 20+ years of 601HDs have resulted in
no structural failures, whereas 6 years of 601XLs have resulted in 4 or 5.
I Have counted 3 cases of structural failures in XLs, including the latest
one that can be explained by flying into IMC conditions by an unrated pilot.
That leave us with 2 unexplained cases that are different in nature, one the
wing folded up the other, the aircraft came apart in mid flight.
20 years of HD vs. 6 years for XL is not what should be used to establish proportion,
number of flight hours by fleet is what should be used. Unfortunatelly
we don't have such information. I would tend to believe that there are more
hours flown in HDs that XLs because of the HD being older, but one should
not jump to such conclusion on time alone.
Statistically that's backwards if they're both rated the same in load limit.
I doubt there's 5 times as many 601XLs as HD and HDSs over the past 20 years.
Even if there were twice as many XLs as all the others combined, that's still
statistically backwards indicating something special about the XL.
Again, back to the Lies, Damn Lies, and statistics. How many RVs are there over
20 years? How amyn people tend to fly them as personal aerobatic jets. The
RV wing is in fact a thin wing.
I have counted 9 cases of structural failures in RVs. One of these cases is
very similar to the most recent 601XL crash. The RV flew into IMC conditions
and came apart in pieces.
I'm not coming down on CH here, I'm just distinctly interested in what's going
on with this wing if anything. Pardon me for trying to be as safe as possible.
Personally, I like to know. I like to know to the point of zero doubt. That's
just the way I am. This is how I conduct my life. You don't have to like
it. If I'm suspicious of something I will investigate it til I'm comfortable
with the knowledge gleaned, BY ME. Not by someone that says everything will
be ok.
I agree with you here however, are you an aeronautical engineer with experience
in light planes? One thing is to question and that is part of our role
as builders, another is to come up with
answers based on speculations because after all, we really don't know what causes
these failures.
Allow me to give you a friendly advice, resist the temptation to modify or "beef
up" your wing. If you can't, make sure you get the blessing from Zenith
before doing any mod. Otherwise you might end up not solving any problem and
wasting your time, or worse yet, making things worst.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
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| Subject: | balanced surfaces, flutter, and moving failure locations |
Please keep in mind that there is no way with the existing design to aerodynamically
balance any portion of any of the flight control surfaces except the vertical
fin.
Also keep in mind that the resistance to cracking/failure of the surface or the
panel is a design feature and simply adding mass balance pendulums to the existing
design can result in failure of the horn, the surface, the hinge, the
trailing edge spar region, the control system.......
Flexure and flutter are totally unsimilar behaviors. Flutter is uncontrolled
response to exitation and unless managed instantly and correctly will result in
damage - frequently very severe. Flexible structure is a designed feature and
is used to allow long life and a softer ride.
I want to see the results of CH latest involvement.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
Andy,
When my daughter was in High School she came home one afternoon very upset
about the fact that girls were not allowed on the wrestling team. After a 30
minute discussion about the pros & cons, I asked her if she wanted to join
the team. She admitted that she never had any intention of doing that!
So, now, I'm asking you, after all this intellectual discussion, after
looking at your web sight and all your careful work, are you going to
install more ribs & beef up your spar?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ashontz
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes
I didn't say anything about flutter, I said stiffen the wing so it doesn't
flex. If you did that the wing would fail
Why would the wing fail? Lets see, you torsionally stiffen it so that
flutter and over-stress doesn't occur in the first place so the wing doesn't
fold. So why would it fail? This isn't a 747 with a 170 foot wing span or
whatever they have where the wing needs to flex a whole bunch less the
attach points give. In the accounts where the wings folded on the 601xl, the
attach points were fine, the wing itself folded. Besides, were ALREADY
talking about a failing wing which the HD and HDS has never experienced.
steveadams wrote:
>
> ashontz wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm not coming down on CH here, I'm just distinctly interested in what's
going on with this wing if anything. Pardon me for trying to be as safe as
possible. Personally, I like to know. I like to know to the point of zero
doubt. That's just the way I am. This is how I conduct my life. You don't
have to like it. If I'm suspicious of something I will investigate it til
I'm comfortable with the knowledge gleaned, BY ME. Not by someone that says
everything will be ok.
>
>
> Everyone wants to know the answer, but what "knowledge" have you gleaned?
Do you know the weak point of the wing, or are you taking a wild a__ guess
and throwing added aluminum at it. Do you know the results of the stress
analysis, or is that factual knowledge unnecissary detail. Do you know how
much addition stress will be transfered to the skins and wing attach points
if you stiffin up the wing? What are the results of flutter testing on the
XL, by both the factory and numerous builders? How does a designer determine
how many ribs are required, how thick the skins need to be, how beefy the
spar needs to be, and how strong the attach points need to be? How does a
designer determine whether mass balancing is required or aerodynamic
balancing of control surfaces is sufficient?
>
>
As far as the 747 wing, I did say every wing will flutter at some
point/speed. To so trying to totally stop flutter is pointless. Trying to
eliminate it below Vne is not pointless though. Also, the flutter is the
stress that the wing is experiencing. Eliminate the flutter and eliminate
the stress.
[/quote]
I didn't say anything about flutter, I said stiffen the wing so it doesn't
flex. If you did that the wing would fail.
[/quote]
As far as the spar cap, I didn't suggest beefing that up, I suggested using
a angled extrusion, same thinkness as the cap, that's 20mm wide to hold the
skin on the spar. Why use .032 on top of a 1/4" cap when you could have just
used an angled extrusion for the top cap that's 90 degrees? It's gotta be
stronger than the .032 cap angle. Maybe not a big deal, but now that I think
about it, why not go for a one piece deal that's even stronger.
[/quote]
So if you strengthen the cap, how is that going to change the distribution
of forces in the wing? If it makes the wing stiffer, how much are you going
to need to beef up the wing attach points to account for to redistribution
of forces?
[/quote]
Are you suggesting I can't think for myself. I haven't once sent you a form
that says you must accept my theories and change your aircraft accordingly.
I'm just thinking out load as are other people on the topic, and some of
them are of the same mindset as me about this. Are you trying to stifle my
inquisitiveness of the subject for some reason? I take getting in an
airplane and relying on it seriously. I consider this a pre-pre-flight walk
around. When I hear of wing flutter and structural failures of a plane I'm
building I take note. Sorry for making you uncomfortable. Have I struck a
nerve as far as things you haven't thought of about this wing that now has
you thinking. In some ways I hope so because it's for the better. Maybe
there's absolutely nothing wrong with this wing and it was just yahoos
acting like a-holes. But I'd have to think over the 20+ years of HDs and
HDSs there were plenty of yahoos that flew them that apparently never ripped
the wings off. Personally, !
I have no intention of flying ine like it's a fighter yet, I'd also like to
never experience wing flutter (for even 1/10th of a second) like the guy did
over the power plant.
[/quote]
No one is trying to stiffle your inquisitiveness. Be inquisitive and seek
knowledge. However, to find an answer requires that you take the time and
effort to understand the question. You've gone on and on with answers, but
don't have any idea what question you are trying to answer. Somebody might
read what you say, think it sounds intellegent, and modify their plane.
That's everybody's choice to make, but I am trying to point out that the
things you are saying have little basis in fact and are not well thought
out. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that before you or anyone else starts
making changes to their wings you had better make darn sure you know what
you are doing.[/quote]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113185#113185
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| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
It all depends on where you aim it. The taxi light should be aimed so it illuminates
the ground in front of you when you are taxiing. The landing light will
be aimed so it shines down when at a noise high attitude.
You can get a rough idea by going to someone else's small plane and seeing where
there landing light hits the ground and duplicate it.
dfmoeller wrote:
> I hate to deflect the focus of the discussions here off of the accident/wing
issue, but I have a silly question about the Zenith implementation of landing/taxi
lights. I hope someone can set me straight on this.
>
> I have always been under the impression that the focus zone of landing vs. taxi
lights is different and may also entail different power ratings. I don't have
them on my XL, but I'm curious about Zenith's implementation.
>
> 1. The Zenith kit pricing page shows the same lamp with no special lens in front
for each light.
>
> 2. It appears from several schematics I've seen that the intent is not to drive
them simultaneously.
>
> So, what makes one a landing light and the other a taxi light? And why not just
have 1 light? Exactly what is the operational usage of these lamps here?
>
> Doug
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113196#113196
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| Subject: | Re: Need help on elevator |
I don't remember if I drilled a hole big enough to use a nibbler tool
in or if I used the Dremel with a cut-off disk. It was one of those
methods. That's pretty much how I do all the tight cuts.
Steve
At 02:19 PM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
>
>I'm making good progress on my 601 (XL) tail section.
>I'm now at the stage to make the cut-out for the elevator horn doubler.
>
>I drilled the 3 stress relief holes, but I see no way to cut out the
>triangle with snips. (At least not without destroying the skin).
>
>Has anyone a better method than that described in the building plans?
Steve Look
Monticello, IL
601XL, Corvair
"Dogs have owners, Cats have staff"
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote:
> Andy,
>
> When my daughter was in High School she came home one afternoon very upset
> about the fact that girls were not allowed on the wrestling team. After a 30
> minute discussion about the pros & cons, I asked her if she wanted to join
> the team. She admitted that she never had any intention of doing that!
>
> So, now, I'm asking you, after all this intellectual discussion, after
> looking at your web sight and all your careful work, are you going to
> install more ribs & beef up your spar?
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
> Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
>
> --
I'll check with Zenith first as far as official analysis goes. I'm not looking
forward to extra work, but if I feel it needs it and there analysis shows no negative
effects I will do it. I don't think I'll mess with the spar. I have .040
for spar cap angles as it is, the extrusion was just an after thought. It wouldn't
be too hard to install more ribs, making them will be a pain in the ass
because I hated making the forms. They're reall time consuming.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113198#113198
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
Whew!!! I'm glad to hear you say that! I truly hope that someday we can fly
wingtip to wingtip and compare the oil canning we each have in our
respective wings - you in an XL and me in an HDS.
Of course, I'll be flying behind a Corvair, so I may have to throttle back a
little.... ;)
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
... I'm asking you, after all this intellectual discussion, after
> looking at your web sight and all your careful work, are you going to
> install more ribs & beef up your spar?
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
> Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
>
> --
I'll check with Zenith first as far as official analysis goes. I'm not
looking forward to extra work, but if I feel it needs it and there analysis
shows no negative effects I will do it. I don't think I'll mess with the
spar. I have .040 for spar cap angles as it is, the extrusion was just an
after thought. It wouldn't be too hard to install more ribs, making them
will be a pain in the ass because I hated making the forms. They're reall
time consuming.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113198#113198
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon installation |
Gary-
Last resort. It would be easy to simply angle the EFIS to face the left
seat, but then the guy in the right seat is screwed. I'll have to see what I
see when the blank panel is in place.
Larry said that you shouldn't move the whole panel back because people
6'3" and over keep bonking his switched with their knees. I thought, no big
deal, I'm 5'-10" and my wife is 5'-3". Then I remembered my 6'-3" son, who
has first dibs on a ride once my hours are flown off.
So you don't burn up a batch of time figuring out the Xs and the Ys of
the Mendelevian theory, he's adopted. Still the only son I have.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:05 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon installation
>
> Bill,
>
> This sounds encouraging for you. Can you move the installation out a bit
> with a separate "shock" panel?
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, CA
> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
> Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:26 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dynon installation
>
> There are right angle hoods for "D" connectors. With the connector and
> hood
> I would estimate the total depth to be well under 2 inched. A typical
> datasheet is attached. Digikey sells these for $4.29. But if you need more
> than 25 pins you will need a different family of hoods (see second
> datasheet).
>
> For the pitot/static lines you could add right-angle unions.
>
> -- Craig
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Dynon installation |
Brian-
Small world. I was born and raised in Bethpage, and my father was a
managing engineer for the landing gear division of Grumman. Sad what's
happened to one of the great aviation think tanks in world history.
One of my employees was Gabby Gabrewski's nephew, and I had no idea
Gabby moved a couple of blocks away from where I grew up once Republic
bit the dust and he went to Grumman.
I could cry.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: RURUNY@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:12 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Dynon installation
>but when you attach the 37-pin D-sub connector
>and room to curl the wiring, it requires around 10".Also don't forget
the tubing for pitot, AOA, and static. It might or might notbe an issue
see pic at http://www.701builder.com/electrical10.htm go downto the 9th
pic on this page.Brian UnruhLong Island, NYwww.701builder.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at AOL.com.
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| Subject: | Dynon Installation |
All-
Thanks much for the valued input. This is the way the list should
work!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Need help on elevator |
Hans-
Put a strip of duct tape on both sides of your line, leaving enough room
for the thickness of a sabre saw blade. Then, use a blade suitable for
aluminum to cut the opening. That's how I accomplished the cuts in the
attached picture.
Good building!
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:19 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Need help on elevator
>
> Friends,
>
> I'm making good progress on my 601 (XL) tail section.
> I'm now at the stage to make the cut-out for the elevator horn doubler.
>
> I drilled the 3 stress relief holes, but I see no way to cut out the
> triangle with snips. (At least not without destroying the skin).
>
> Has anyone a better method than that described in the building plans?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hans
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113179#113179
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
My 68 Cessna 172 had two identical bulbs, just aimed differently as described by
previous posts. Later wing mounted Cessna landing lights used two different
bulb types..... in use I didn't see much difference.
Tim
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113209#113209
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
Wow, this discussion has really gotten to comparing apples and oranges.
True we all need to wait and see what CH has to say after the new test.
I built a HD and will build another one but trying to compare it to the
XL??? You can't two different airplanes. Personally I don't understand the
rush to build a XL, the HD and HDS performance and durability is proven and
the HD will fit in Sport Pilot. IT is a much simpler airplane. Oh and yes I
do have plans for the HD (new set just purchased for my second build), HDS
wing plans also and yes the XL plans.
One thing we might all remember, there have been several planes built by
factories with lots of really smart and cutting edge aerodynamicists and
engineers. Some of these planes were built really well and proven in public
service over years....before they started coming apart due to unforseen
problems. The Nimrod is just one example....it went into public and military
service for a few years before the airframes started cracking and failing.
There are several others too, google it. As far as dynamic with instability
and flutter, google that too, there are several designs that had to be
modified because the condition very rarely presented itself but when it did
it was catastrophic. Trying to duplicate the condition was hard and almost
impossible on the ground. Through careful flight testing, taking baby steps
to completely simulate the conditions that caused the wing flutter it
happened. It was studied and then the wing modified to keep the planes in
service.
The whole point is people need to quit saying "the wing has a problem"
because it might not. Also people need to quit saying "it is a proven design
and hundreds are flying" because again, that is not true either. I did a FAA
registraition search and it only comes up with 132 601XL's in the USA. Out
of that only 89 carry a current airworthiness which means the others are not
flying yet. I am not discounting ones in other countries but lets not
stretch the truth about the number of actually flying ones. Also everyone
keeps saying the pilots over stressed the plane either thru rough air faster
than Va or Vne, no one knows that except the one who died in the plane.
Lets just wait and see what CH comes up with, also see if any more instances
happen.
David Mikesell
23597 N. Hwy 99
Acampo, CA 95220
209-224-4485
skyguynca@skyguynca.com
www.skyguynca.com
Message 36
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| Subject: | Selective posting |
Matt-
I only see maybe 30% of the posts I mak on list. Do I have something
set wrong?
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
Message 37
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| Subject: | FAA record searches |
On the subject of searching for FAA data on accidents to specific
homebuilt designs, Ron Wattanja had some valuable tips in his recent
Kitplanes article on the subject. Briefly stated, there is a lot of
variation in the way individual builders identify the airplanes they
register. For example, RV-6, RV6, Rv-6, etc. Ron has been chasing this
sort of data for some years now and his article has some good tips.
Also some CH and RV accident data.
This is intended as a helpful tip, not a reflection on anyone who has
recently commented on the "wing sweep/recent accident" postings.
George
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Need help on elevator |
I used my dremel (see the attached pic) to cut fairly close to the line and then
filed the rest straight and smooth. Get a good grip on the dremel just in case
the wheel bites should you go too fast.
--------
Dave Gardea
601XL - Corvair
working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113230#113230
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dremel_140.jpg
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes |
David and other interested folks,
Thanks for the reminder that flutter can be a very tough problem to
diagnose. My earlier comments about the possibility of XL wing flutter were
made prior to the announcement that Chris Heintz was going to do a complete
review of the structural design of the XL. My original concern was that our
many good friends on this Zenith list were overlooking the flutter
possibility. That is no longer an issue, given the many comments exchanged
regarding this mode of failure over the past week. Now, I am confident that
Chris will thoroughly revisit every aspect of the wing design to assure that
the XL remains one of the best homebuilt designs available. I now will sign
off on this topic and return to building.
Bob Eli
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Mikesell" <skyguynca@skyguynca.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Wing sweep and recent crashes
> <skyguynca@skyguynca.com>
>
> Wow, this discussion has really gotten to comparing apples and oranges.
> True we all need to wait and see what CH has to say after the new test.
> I built a HD and will build another one but trying to compare it to the
> XL??? You can't two different airplanes. Personally I don't understand the
> rush to build a XL, the HD and HDS performance and durability is proven
> and the HD will fit in Sport Pilot. IT is a much simpler airplane. Oh and
> yes I do have plans for the HD (new set just purchased for my second
> build), HDS wing plans also and yes the XL plans.
>
> One thing we might all remember, there have been several planes built by
> factories with lots of really smart and cutting edge aerodynamicists and
> engineers. Some of these planes were built really well and proven in
> public service over years....before they started coming apart due to
> unforseen problems. The Nimrod is just one example....it went into public
> and military service for a few years before the airframes started cracking
> and failing. There are several others too, google it. As far as dynamic
> with instability and flutter, google that too, there are several designs
> that had to be modified because the condition very rarely presented itself
> but when it did it was catastrophic. Trying to duplicate the condition was
> hard and almost impossible on the ground. Through careful flight testing,
> taking baby steps to completely simulate the conditions that caused the
> wing flutter it happened. It was studied and then the wing modified to
> keep the planes in service.
>
> The whole point is people need to quit saying "the wing has a problem"
> because it might not. Also people need to quit saying "it is a proven
> design and hundreds are flying" because again, that is not true either. I
> did a FAA registraition search and it only comes up with 132 601XL's in
> the USA. Out of that only 89 carry a current airworthiness which means the
> others are not flying yet. I am not discounting ones in other countries
> but lets not stretch the truth about the number of actually flying ones.
> Also everyone keeps saying the pilots over stressed the plane either thru
> rough air faster than Va or Vne, no one knows that except the one who died
> in the plane.
>
> Lets just wait and see what CH comes up with, also see if any more
> instances happen.
>
> David Mikesell
> 23597 N. Hwy 99
> Acampo, CA 95220
> 209-224-4485
> skyguynca@skyguynca.com
> www.skyguynca.com
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Selling landing gear for Stol 701Sp |
Tom, If you still have the gear, I may be interested. Where are you located in
Wisconsin and do you have an asking price? You can send me the photos at my
home e-mail ekholmbk@lakedalelink.net
Bryan
--------
Bryan Ekholm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113235#113235
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| Subject: | Re: Need help on elevator |
A big thank you to all of you who replied. What a wealth of information on this
list!
I actually went out and bought a Dremel kit as Tom Henderson was the first to suggest.
Any excuse to buy a new tool is a good excuse I guess.
It worked great. FYI: All the other cut-outs (for rudder, trim tab and trim servo
inspection hole) now come ready made from ZAC which I think is great.
Thanks again,
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113236#113236
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon installationDynon installation |
Bill,
I have never seen a Dynon unit in person so I cannot comment on size. I also
do not know the actual connector and hood provided. However, I do a great
deal of scrounging at local electronics surplus houses. I have seen many
different hoods for many of the DB-type pin connectors. I have used hoods
that dress the cable off to right angles; both right or left. Also some at
right angles up or down. I suggest you do an internet search on the 37-pin
D-sub connector and see if you can find a different hood that might reduce
the "rear extension". You might even look into a ribbon connector coming off
at a right angle to a connector mounted elsewhere for the leads to connect
where there is more room. There is a great deal of choices if you look into
it. These connectors are very prevalent in the electronics industry.
Just my two cents worth.
Dave Thompson
Westminster, CA
Message 43
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| Subject: | New Wing Testing - Amateur Builders |
Though I generally believe in CH and the design of the 601XL, I do hope the
testing he has done and continues to do factors in true "amateur" building
in some way. I was just looking back through the archives and noticed David
Downey's observation (for which I imagine he has the credentials to back up)
that we amateurs may sometimes make potentially dangerous gouges along the
rivet line using the file deburring method. Deburring is just a pet peeve
of mine. I understand the goal, but I really believe I have no way of
practically achieving it. (BTW, it simply makes no logical sense that one
can use a drill bit or countersink to deburr a whole without slightly
angling the edge or leaving a slight ridge. My chances of using an angle to
cut away excess material and leave a 90 deg. corner are one in a million in
my book.) So what is worse, a scratch, an angle, or a ridge?
Anyway, to get to the point. I hope that some testing has been done on an
airframe built by some Joe like me. Perhaps he has tested one of the planes
built in 7 days at an airshow; maybe he has had some yahoo off the street
build something to test. I don't know. But I would like to hear that he is
not solely testing a "professionally" built airframe that someone with
decades of experience carefully constructed.
My $.02.
Michael in NH
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Length between Wing Tank and Selector Valve? |
Patrick,
I am not building yet and cannot give you any dimensions. However, I have
done similar fuel line runs on a speed boat using steel braded lines. I went
to Home Depot and purchased a length of cheap clear hose the same diameter.
I ran the hose as needed and cut it to length. I removed the clear hose and
used it as a template, installing the steel braded connectors on the
workbench.
Just my two cents worth
Dave Thompson
Westminster, CA
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Dynon installation |
Bill,
I was born and raised in Farmingdale, my mom used to work for Grumman making
wiring harnesses for the F-14. I left L.I. in 2000 and moved to Marathon,NY
and I don't miss L.I. one bit. Got my flight training at Republic Airport,
when I was able to solo, I used to go out to Block Island for those $100.00
hamburgers. My In-Laws used to live in Bethpage.
Bob Spudis
do not archive
In a message dated 5/16/2007 6:46:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
naumuk@alltel.net writes:
Brian-
Small world. I was born and raised in Bethpage, and my father was a
managing engineer for the landing gear division of Grumman. Sad what's happened
to one of the great aviation think tanks in world history.
One of my employees was Gabby Gabrewski's nephew, and I had no idea
Gabby moved a couple of blocks away from where I grew up once Republic bit the
dust and he went to Grumman.
I could cry.
Bill Naumuk
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Townville, Pa
----- Original Message -----
From: _RURUNY@aol.com_ (mailto:RURUNY@aol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:12 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Dynon installation
>but when you attach the 37-pin D-sub connector
>and room to curl the wiring, it requires around 10".
Also don't forget the tubing for pitot, AOA, and static. It might or might not
be an issue see pic at _http://www.701builder.com/electrical10.htm_
(http://www.701builder.com/electrical10.htm) go down
to the 9th pic on this page.
Brian Unruh
Long Island, NY
_www.701builder.com_ (http://www.701builder.com/)
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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