---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/18/07: 52 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:58 AM - 601HD wheels and brakes (Robilliard) 2. 05:03 AM - Re: Tire Pressure (wade jones) 3. 05:20 AM - Re: Tire Pressure (robert stone) 4. 05:22 AM - Re: Tire Pressure (Jaybannist@cs.com) 5. 05:41 AM - Re: Landing Lights (dfmoeller) 6. 06:09 AM - Re: Tire Pressure (LarryMcFarland) 7. 06:10 AM - Re: Landing Lights (dfmoeller) 8. 06:10 AM - Re: 601HD wheels and brakes (Bill Steer) 9. 06:24 AM - Re: Rudder cables exiting rear fuslage (Gig Giacona) 10. 06:29 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (Gig Giacona) 11. 06:31 AM - Re: 601HD wheels and brakes (LarryMcFarland) 12. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (ZodieRocket) 13. 07:17 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (Gig Giacona) 14. 07:41 AM - Re: Rudder cables exiting rear fuslage (AZFlyer) 15. 07:51 AM - EAA Southwest Fly-In @ Hondo Texas (James Clark) 16. 07:59 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (cbaron66) 17. 08:30 AM - Re: Landing Lights (John M. Goodings) 18. 08:44 AM - Final letter on thread (ZodieRocket) 19. 09:20 AM - Re: Final letter on thread (Trainnut01@aol.com) 20. 09:23 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (steveadams) 21. 09:37 AM - Re: Landing Lights (Gig Giacona) 22. 09:48 AM - Re: Tire Pressure (Tim Juhl) 23. 09:51 AM - baggage door fix (john butterfield) 24. 09:52 AM - Re: Final letter on thread (Tim Juhl) 25. 10:02 AM - The ongoing XL wing debate (TxDave) 26. 10:19 AM - Re: EAA Southwest Fly-In @ Hondo Texas (TxDave) 27. 10:24 AM - Re: Final letter on thread (Elden Jacobson) 28. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (David Downey) 29. 10:28 AM - Re: Final letter on thread (David Downey) 30. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings () 31. 11:34 AM - Anybody delete the cabin access step?? (DaveG601XL) 32. 12:17 PM - Re: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? (Gig Giacona) 33. 12:28 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Gig Giacona) 34. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (David Downey) 35. 01:07 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (george may) 36. 01:10 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Tim Juhl) 37. 01:26 PM - One Possibility on How Threads like "Flutter" and "Stuctural Failure" Get Started (Phil Maxson) 38. 01:43 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Dave Austin) 39. 01:44 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Dave Austin) 40. 01:57 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Dennis Shoup) 41. 02:14 PM - Re: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? (Gary Ray) 42. 02:21 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Tim Juhl) 43. 02:55 PM - Folded wing the hard way (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 44. 03:05 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Robin Bellach) 45. 03:47 PM - 601 main gear Bungees (john H) 46. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: Tire Pressure (robert stone) 47. 04:00 PM - One possibility on How Threads like "Flutter" and "Structural" (MaxNr@aol.com) 48. 06:53 PM - 601HD Bungee (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 49. 09:03 PM - Re: Tire Pressure (Gig Giacona) 50. 09:24 PM - Re: One possibility on How Threads like "Flutter" and "Structural" (Paul Mulwitz) 51. 09:33 PM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (Ron Lendon) 52. 09:39 PM - Re: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? (Ron Lendon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:49 AM PST US From: "Robilliard" Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD wheels and brakes Hi All Is any one able to tell me the make, part number and source of the Wheel and Brake assemblies fitted to the 601HD. I am unable to find any reference to it on the drawings and as a scratch builder; I am trying to source them. Regards Roy Robilliard Bunbury West Australia 601HD ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:29 AM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Hi Tracy ,I don't know what the correct tire pressure is for the 601XL .My Tripacer calls for 22# mains and 15# nose ,this is for a 2000# gross aircraft . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: robert stone To: Zenith list Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Members, Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on the ZodiacXL with tri-gear. Tracy Stone ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:40 AM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Hay Wade, I have 25 pounds in all three and I thought it was a little high. Can you believe what this guy told me!!! 50 lbs. George May 601XL 912s---74 hours Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: wade jones To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Hi Tracy ,I don't know what the correct tire pressure is for the 601XL .My Tripacer calls for 22# mains and 15# nose ,this is for a 2000# gross aircraft . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: robert stone To: Zenith list Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Members, Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on the ZodiacXL with tri-gear. Tracy Stone href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:00 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Tracy, According to my Photo Guide, Section 6-G, page 6, the tire pressure should be 50 PSI. I had to call ZAC to find this information myself. Jay in Dallas "robert stone" wrote: >Members, > Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on the ZodiacXL with tri-gear. > >Tracy Stone > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:05 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Landing Lights From: "dfmoeller" These nav/pos/strobe combo units are installed on my XL. They work quite nicely. Given the XL's inherent tail heaviness, any way to keep weight forward helps, even just wire and bulb assembly weight. The fit looks like the wingtips were made for this light assembly. Since I purchased my plane from the builder, I'm not sure how these managed to get installed, but I certainly recommend these over the 3 piece models. Doug hansriet wrote: > > > Also there's a slightly different Aeroflash Strobe/Nav unit (Kit No. 156-0049) than the one ZAC is supplying. It has a white light on the backside. By mounting this strobe on the wingtips, you don't need the (rather ugly IMHO) rudder tail light. Does anybody have experience with that strobe? Will it fit on the XL wingtips? > > Thanks, > > > Hans van Riet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113553#113553 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:26 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Robert, Usually the tire specifies tire pressure on the side in fine print. For the weight of a loaded XL, the tire pressure could be below this amount by 3 to 4 lbs to reduce the wear and soften landings on the tires. Depends a bit more on what specific tire you have to give an accurate answer, but 28 to 31 lbs would be a good guess for a 33 psi tire. Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com do not archive robert stone wrote: > Members, > Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on the > ZodiacXL with tri-gear. > > Tracy Stone ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Landing Lights From: "dfmoeller" Thanks to all for the clarifications. I clearly see the distinction now. It should have been obvious in the first place. Thats what I love about this list. Even silly/stupid questions get patient answers. Now, back to the bickering about wing flex! Doug Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113561#113561 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:30 AM PST US From: Bill Steer Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HD wheels and brakes The make and part number are Matco W80CC-Z for the wheel and brake assembly. There's also a "2-923009" on the drawing. Matco is Salt Lake City, UT. Phone 831-486-7574. Bill > Hi All > > Is any one able to tell me the make, part number and source of the > Wheel and Brake assemblies fitted to the 601HD. I am unable to find > any reference to it on the drawings and as a scratch builder; I am > trying to source them. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:24 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder cables exiting rear fuslage From: "Gig Giacona" As most of us have done at one point or another in the build process, and as I do on an almost continuous basis you are over thinking the problem. Take the aluminum fairing. Place it where the lower side will be flush with the bottom of the fuselage. Remember the rivets that are connecting the skin to the longeron also connect the fairing and fair lead to the aircraft. Mark the the point middle of the arch on to the skin and you have your cable exit point. I did one thing different than the plans. I put the nylon inside the fuselage. It looks better and protects just as much if not more because there is no way then to have the cable contact the skin. AZFlyer wrote: > After trying numerous search criteria I was unable to locate any earlier concerns about the description, location, drilling, cutting or general construction of the exit holes and fairlead measurements, (other than the P-poor drawings on 6-B-4)... that leave a great deal to the imagination. > > These exit holes (slots) should be smooth and nearly frictionless for cable drag and wear, but some Aviation engineer decided to just "spot them" and leave the rest up to us poor B---turds to figure it out. > > I did find another builders pictures on his web site that show his best guess... but no narrative and no measurements... so ? has anybody concerned themselves with a "smooth, sanitary, clean install" or are we just "Winging It?" > > Love and kisses... > > help! > > Thanks, > Mike -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113566#113566 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "Gig Giacona" I don't know if you made a mistake or not but, when you get the wing kit from Zenith it comes with the center spar and all holes are drilled at the factory and the left, right and center spar are a matched set. Ron Lendon wrote: > > > I noticed you mentioned you only drilled one side of the center spar. I set the dihedral of both wing spars and the center spar before I began the wing assembly. Did I make a mistake here? Should I have waited to drill one end till later? Why? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113567#113567 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:22 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601HD wheels and brakes Roy, The WW80CC-Z main and NW80CC-Z nose gear are Matco/Zenith reference numbers. That product is Matco, a 4 x 8 wheel and I'm not certain they're available any more from Matco. Brakes are MC-5 and if you do find the wheel, I recommend you look at the Michelin S-83 tire for that wheel and a tube with a 90-degree bent stem. Best you call Zenith 1-573-581-9000 and ask Nick. I purchased my wheels from Zenith at the time. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Robilliard wrote: > > Hi All > > Is any one able to tell me the make, part number and source of the > Wheel and Brake assemblies fitted to the 601HD. I am unable to find > any reference to it on the drawings and as a scratch builder; I am > trying to source them. > > > > Regards > > Roy Robilliard > > Bunbury West Australia > > 601HD > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:14 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings Gig, that is the luxury of building a plane from a kit, it is also the terror of building a plane from plans. A plans builder does not have the factory jigs to do the spars, they have to be done as a match drilled affair with fishing line and plumb bobs. Yikes!! Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com -----Original Message----- I don't know if you made a mistake or not but, when you get the wing kit from Zenith it comes with the center spar and all holes are drilled at the factory and the left, right and center spar are a matched set. 6:05 PM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "Gig Giacona" No, it falls into the don't experiment and advise others to experiment on stuff I don't know enough about camp. As I said it is your airplane and if you can get the change, what ever it may be, past the AW inspector go for it. Just don't suggest to others to use your untested ideas. If you use them and then test them and they work THEN share them. ashontz wrote: > Gig, I guess that falls into the Non-Experimental Experimental camp. It was just a suggestion. What are you afraid of, that someone may actually go ahead and implement it? Why would you have a problem with that if the plane is in fact experimental and it's their plane. Or are you uncomfortable with the fact that someone is implying that there MAY be, not definite, but MAY be something wrong with the design? If and there was something wrong with the design wouldn't you want to know about it? I chose Zenith based on NTSB queries a few years back. Nothing showed up at the time that didn't suggest pilot error. Now for some reason we're seeing cases that may in fact imply problems with the airframe. Seeing as how the 601HD and HDS utilize that same building processes and are built and flow by the same types of people, I'd have to guess that statiscally the the workmanship on the 601HD and HDSs and 601XLs are all within the same bellcurve, yet there are at least 4 suspicious 601XL accidents involving airframe failure where as with the 601HD and HDSs there are none of that category. Again, these planes are placarded Experimental. Personally, I'd prefer to see them placarded Certified, meaning, the design is certified and the inspector overlooking my work felt my work was up to snuff to be considered professional, so that the combination of heavily tested design coupled with professional workmanship is Certified which would be the same as building a Cessna 152 from scratch per A&P workmanship. That would be nice, but that's not the real world. So the best I can hope for at a reasonable price is Experimental with a truly tested design. That's all. > > > Gig Giacona wrote: > > Andy, > > > > I've pretty much stayed out of this. It is your airplane and as long as you can get it by the AW inspector you can do what ever the hell you want to it. > > > > What I have a problem with is you suggesting completely untested and un-engineered fixes to a problem that probably doesn't exist. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113577#113577 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rudder cables exiting rear fuslage From: "AZFlyer" Gig, After studying the pictures that Paul sent me off-line, I now see what he did as a work-a-round to my concern. He opened the 8 x 20 mm slot in the skin to allow a better alignment with the cable. This was really my quandary. I had set the lower rudder horn in it's hinge hole and inserted a 1/8" dowel through the skin to the horn (where the cable would terminate), only to find a major mis-alignment through the fairlead. Then the poorly drawn engr. dwg.s don't explain the slot in the nylon ...except to "make one." I'll take a look at putting the nylon inside as you did... sounds good. Thanks for the feedback. M -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300, Dynon Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113589#113589 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:59 AM PST US From: James Clark Subject: Zenith-List: EAA Southwest Fly-In @ Hondo Texas The EAA Southwest Fly-In at Hondo Texas is coming up June 1-2 (Fri-Sat). I would like to know if anyone with a 601 or 701 will be there, as I would like to get a closer look at the planes. Please drop me a line if you are going, would like to meet with you. Thanks, James Clark - Fort Worth, TX ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "cbaron66" Andy- consider me +1,+100 don't listen to the guys that tell you to shut it. Keep asking questions- that's how we all learn. I too feel there may well be something worth looking into with this design. As far as this thread not being warm and fuzzy, I think it's just starting to get good. I don't feel anyone should ever blindly follow what another person says- be it an aircraft designer or even your wife. For you guys that think this forum used to be good- have you noticed how this forum has changed as ZAC has become more "mainstream"? The bigger the company becomes, the more the builders get to be like RV guys :o Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113598#113598 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:13 AM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Landing Lights Our CH601HD has two 45-watt lights in variable screw mounts behind 1 mm polycarbonate lenses, one in each wingtip. One is set to illuminate about 100 feet ahead (nominal taxi light), the other about 200 feet ahead (nominal landing light). We can operate with one or other or both. We alternate them, keeping one on all the time - Chris Heintz and an airliner captain friend both told me they believe birds see the light before the plane. Also, the one time the aircraft landed a bit late at dusk, they were useful. John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa/Waterloo. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:43 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Final letter on thread -----Original Message----- have you noticed how this forum has changed as ZAC has become more "mainstream"? The bigger the company becomes, the more the builders get to be like RV guys :o I don't personally agree with this last statement. Individually I find a lot of RV owners somewhat friendly but as a whole they tend to have an air of superiority complex. Not so with the majority of Zenith owners. At any Fly-in I ever went to on grass I never saw an RV, on pavement I saw them but if you went to chat with them it is an instant brush off. While a Zenith builder is at every strip, grass, dirt, water and even a light swamp. On a whole when you start talking to a Zenith kit owner and builder they are the friendliest people on the earth. Even when I was building an Osprey 2 they would spend the time to answer my questions and genuinely be interested in meeting you. Is ZAC becoming more main stream, why YES of course, how could it not, a great product fitting a need. Still even though we are getting bigger as a group, I still see what I saw 10 years ago, normal down to earth friendly people, usually willing to bend over backwards to help or offer assistance. In other words it still feels like a family to me, occasionally I want to slap a cousin up the side of the coconut, as in Andy just lately or Larry a year ago. But all in all I still want to meet all of you and share a coffee and burger together. I don't believe that there is anyone here I cannot at least talk to socially, I may not agree with your views and you may not agree with mine, however I have noticed that no one here truly would turn down a burger and a conversation. As for the last rash of posts, they are non-productive. Lets bring up the issues when there is knowledge, not speculation, not assumptions and not half assed info from the FAA. Zenith is a great, respectable company, you know that, it was likely one of the biggest parts of your decision. You truly know if Zenith had an inkling that something was wrong it would immediately post it and warn us, Hell I would be the first to post any warranted warnings. But all it's tests have passed and they are doing them yet again for proof and this is not the second time as they have had to do tests in several countries. If something can come out of it then it will. Sitting here and speculating slows the building process down, pisses off other builders that are your friends. Once again is completely un-productive and will solve nothing for you. You have all, read posts from Andy, yet I look back at my logs and I see some very intelligent conversations I have had with him in the past and some help I have given to him. He seems like a great guy, maybe a little over concerned possibly scarred. Who wouldn't be, remember we all have different backgrounds. Some of us know the routine and wait for the investigation and wait to see if Chris makes any recommendations, it truly is all we can do and acomplish. When you step back you know that the company will do the right thing, they have to, and past history shows that they always did. I know you're tired of the soap box, and I'm climbing down now as I have a Rudder workshop and seminars to do this weekend. Take care over the weekend guys, get some building or flying done. I hope to see a few of you over the weekend at www.zenithnorth.com fly-in. Either buy me a coffee, or I can buy you one ( I drink black) lets talk and get back to what makes our community the best group to belong to, a special fellowship amongst all. Oh and be Gentle on Andy he really is a nice guy. I still have an opening for a 601 or 701 rudder workshop. Please let me know by tonight and be ready to go first thing in the morning. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com 6:05 PM ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:26 AM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final letter on thread Mark I noticed that "superiority complex" attitude among the RV guys even back when I was building my RV. I thought it was just me they were looking down on. Carroll do not archive ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:19 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "steveadams" The problem is Andy is not asking questions. He's making assumptions and offering solutions without any knowledge of what he is doing. Has anyone asked Zenith for some engineering data? Calculations for 2 dimensional flutter analysis are pretty straight forward, and for predicting wing flutter in the speed range the 601 flies, is extremely accurate. Now, since CH worked doing flutter analysis for the Concorde, do you think maybe, he could have run the calculations on the 601xl? Naw, we don't need to find out, lets just go with Andy on this one and assume the wing has a potential to flutter. And since we make that assumption, now lets fix it by stiffining up the wing, cause Andy says wings flutter because they are too flexible. Are we sure about that Andy? Don't you mean that a stiffer wing will flutter at a higher frequency, but is not necisarily less apt to flutter? Ah heck, lets not let knowledge or facts get in the way of a good fix, let's just go with Andy on this one too, he's on a roll. Hey, it's experimental, lets experiment right. Eveyone knows when people experiment, they don't gather any knowledge or facts, they just jump in throwing stuff together to see what happens. I'm tired of this stuff. Good luck with your build. :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113619#113619 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Landing Lights From: "Gig Giacona" John, when you say the landing light is aiming 200 feet ahead, do you mean when the aircraft is at rest? goodings(at)yorku.ca wrote: > Our CH601HD has two 45-watt lights in variable screw mounts behind 1 mm > polycarbonate lenses, one in each wingtip. One is set to illuminate about > 100 feet ahead (nominal taxi light), the other about 200 feet ahead > (nominal landing light). We can operate with one or other or both. We > alternate them, keeping one on all the time - Chris Heintz and an airliner > captain friend both told me they believe birds see the light before the > plane. Also, the one time the aircraft landed a bit late at dusk, they > were useful. > > John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa/Waterloo. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113622#113622 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tire Pressure From: "Tim Juhl" 50 lbs! Where did ZAC come up with that number? I would think those tires would be like rocks! The 5:00 nose on a 172 is 26 psi - on a 182 I seem to remember it was 42 psi. It would be nice if ZAC would clarify the reasons behind such high pressures. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113624#113624 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:22 AM PST US From: john butterfield Subject: Zenith-List: baggage door fix thanks guys, can't believe i did not figure this out myself. however, do you think the additional weight of the o rings will have any effect on wing strength (sorry, couldn't resist) john butterfield 601XL, corvair torrance, ca that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Final letter on thread From: "Tim Juhl" Is it just me or is there no text with Mark's post? Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113625#113625 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: The ongoing XL wing debate From: "TxDave" Im not the sort of person who is prone to knee-jerk reactions. I have set back and read all of the postings related to the 601XL accidents without joining in on the discussion. Well, heres my 2 cents worth. I believe Chris Heintz is an outstanding aircraft designer, and that the good folks at ZAC appreciate their customers. It would not be in their best interest, financially or otherwise, to deliberately put out a design that was inherently flawed and dangerous. However, Chris is a human being, and as such is capable of making an occasional error just like the rest of us. Think about large corporations like General Motors and Ford. They employ armies of designers and engineers and have state of the art testing facilities. Stillthey occasionally have to recall specific vehicles when an unforeseen design flaw rears its ugly head. If huge automotive corporations with vast resources are subject to this kind of thing, it seems extremely irrational to say this ABSOLUTELY cannot happen to Chris H. Like every other builder on this list I have put a substantial amount of time and money into my airplane. It is a labor of love. I wake up every day excited to get out to the garage and work on my baby, even if only for an hour. In the end, my life and the life of whoever flies with me depends on the quality of my workmanship, my ability as a pilot, AND the structural integrity of the design. Knowing how much we all have invested in this endeavor, and how much is at stake, I think we all have a right to question everything! In fact, I think we have an obligation to do so. Im not an expert homebuilder by any stretch of the imagination. Most of you are probably much more qualified than I. I spent months doing research on the various designs available and reached the conclusion the 601XL was the right choice for my specific needs. I still feel that way and continue to build every day. I am concerned about these fatal accidents. However, I am optimistic that if, I said IF, there is a design flaw, Chris will find and correct it. Some of the postings on this topic have been pretty bizarre, while others have been very appropriate and thoughtful questions. Personally, I welcome them all. Hey, an in depth discussion of a serious topic like this from a variety of viewpoints is not a bad thing. Were fortunate to have this forum where every single member has the opportunity to speak his or her mind. We dont have to agree with everyone. But, we dont have to ridicule them because we disagree. Lets keep talking. Dave Clay Temple, TX 601XL scratch builder http://www.daves601xl.co Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113626#113626 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:43 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: EAA Southwest Fly-In @ Hondo Texas From: "TxDave" Hey James, I know for a fact that at least two kit built 601XL's will be there. One is Alex Roca's airplane which I had the pleasure of flying. My wife and I will be there along with several of my scratch building buddies. Email me and I'll give you my cell phone number so we can meet at Hondo. Dave Clay Temple, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113627#113627 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:04 AM PST US From: Elden Jacobson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final letter on thread Zodie rocket: As a builder (601XL) just getting started, I have read the last three week's postings with both fascination and concern. As with most builders, having neither the means nor the requisite skills/knowledge to independently verify the airplane's structural integrety, I am dependent upon those who speak for the company and its product. I have met Chris Heintz only once, last fall-- who would have believed that a lecture on rivets could have been so absorbing-- and was impressed by his obvious competence. And now I understand that he will re-evaluate the airplane's structure yet again. Big question: can you give us a sense of the time-frame involved in this? That is, should we anticipate conclusions from him in, say, weeks, or is this a multi-month undertaking? An indication of timing might be of utility in deciding what to undertake, and how rapidly. Thanks, Elden J. ZodieRocket wrote: -----Original Message----- have you noticed how this forum has changed as ZAC has become more "mainstream"? The bigger the company becomes, the more the builders get to be like RV guys :o I don't personally agree with this last statement. Individually I find a lot of RV owners somewhat friendly but as a whole they tend to have an air of superiority complex. Not so with the majority of Zenith owners. At any Fly-in I ever went to on grass I never saw an RV, on pavement I saw them but if you went to chat with them it is an instant brush off. While a Zenith builder is at every strip, grass, dirt, water and even a light swamp. On a whole when you start talking to a Zenith kit owner and builder they are the friendliest people on the earth. Even when I was building an Osprey 2 they would spend the time to answer my questions and genuinely be interested in meeting you. Is ZAC becoming more main stream, why YES of course, how could it not, a great product fitting a need. Still even though we are getting bigger as a group, I still see what I saw 10 years ago, normal down to earth friendly people, usually willing to bend over backwards to help or offer assistance. In other words it still feels like a family to me, occasionally I want to slap a cousin up the side of the coconut, as in Andy just lately or Larry a year ago. But all in all I still want to meet all of you and share a coffee and burger together. I don't believe that there is anyone here I cannot at least talk to socially, I may not agree with your views and you may not agree with mine, however I have noticed that no one here truly would turn down a burger and a conversation. As for the last rash of posts, they are non-productive. Lets bring up the issues when there is knowledge, not speculation, not assumptions and not half assed info from the FAA. Zenith is a great, respectable company, you know that, it was likely one of the biggest parts of your decision. You truly know if Zenith had an inkling that something was wrong it would immediately post it and warn us, Hell I would be the first to post any warranted warnings. But all it's tests have passed and they are doing them yet again for proof and this is not the second time as they have had to do tests in several countries. If something can come out of it then it will. Sitting here and speculating slows the building process down, pisses off other builders that are your friends. Once again is completely un-productive and will solve nothing for you. You have all, read posts from Andy, yet I look back at my logs and I see some very intelligent conversations I have had with him in the past and some help I have given to him. He seems like a great guy, maybe a little over concerned possibly scarred. Who wouldn't be, remember we all have different backgrounds. Some of us know the routine and wait for the investigation and wait to see if Chris makes any recommendations, it truly is all we can do and acomplish. When you step back you know that the company will do the right thing, they have to, and past history shows that they always did. I know you're tired of the soap box, and I'm climbing down now as I have a Rudder workshop and seminars to do this weekend. Take care over the weekend guys, get some building or flying done. I hope to see a few of you over the weekend at www.zenithnorth.com fly-in. Either buy me a coffee, or I can buy you one ( I drink black) lets talk and get back to what makes our community the best group to belong to, a special fellowship amongst all. Oh and be Gentle on Andy he really is a nice guy. I still have an opening for a 601 or 701 rudder workshop. Please let me know by tonight and be ready to go first thing in the morning. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com 6:05 PM --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:42 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings Gentlemen; I promised not to keep at this stream but please remember this: The very best design teams in history have a checkered history of successfully providing designs that did not have hidden susceptibilities, including structural flutter issues, that showed up after many, many were in service with clean histories. I agree that Andy tends to run to the reactionary side but nothing he has asked is not contained anecdotally in my own career in aircraft development and testing for the "big boys". CH is a man revered by myself as well as most of you. He is not God. He would never place a flawed design in the hands of his buyers or especially as someone put it "his own children" flying them. I also don't think Andy is going to go out and redesign the wings withthe knowlege he has - he knows that is simply moving the percieved flaw. steveadams wrote: The problem is Andy is not asking questions. He's making assumptions and offering solutions without any knowledge of what he is doing. Has anyone asked Zenith for some engineering data? Calculations for 2 dimensional flutter analysis are pretty straight forward, and for predicting wing flutter in the speed range the 601 flies, is extremely accurate. Now, since CH worked doing flutter analysis for the Concorde, do you think maybe, he could have run the calculations on the 601xl? Naw, we don't need to find out, lets just go with Andy on this one and assume the wing has a potential to flutter. And since we make that assumption, now lets fix it by stiffining up the wing, cause Andy says wings flutter because they are too flexible. Are we sure about that Andy? Don't you mean that a stiffer wing will flutter at a higher frequency, but is not necisarily less apt to flutter? Ah heck, lets not let knowledge or facts get in the way of a good fix, let's just go with Andy on this one to! o, he's on a roll. Hey, it's experimental, lets experiment right. Eveyone knows when people experiment, they don't gather any knowledge or facts, they just jump in throwing stuff together to see what happens. I'm tired of this stuff. Good luck with your build. :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113619#113619 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:38 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final letter on thread funny thing, I have just become a member of the EAA after 25+ years of inactivity. The RV'ers are definately a group at a "higher level"! Trainnut01@aol.com wrote: Mark I noticed that "superiority complex" attitude among the RV guys even back when I was building my RV. I thought it was just me they were looking down on. Carroll do not archive --------------------------------- See what's free at AOL.com. Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:32 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings Not to pick nits here, but the testimony doesn't seem to make sense. I f the left wing collapsed and folded rearward, it no longer provided l ift. Therefore, the aircraft should have spun to the left. No amount o f right rudder could compensate for that loss of lift. There should ha ve been strong turning moment until the right wing gave up. The witnes s states that the wings remained attached, but folded back. Therefore, the report should discuss either a fracture somewhere in the structur e, or a humongous (that's a technical term) folding or bending, all at a specifically identifiable point. If one witness stated he saw wha t he thought were pieces of metal separate from the plane, then SOMEBO DY should have walked the area to either find the pieces or negate the testimony. You don't just ignore a possible debris field. With the r eports of hearing the engine being revved, I wonder if anyone looked a t the powerplane for fuel restrictions, ignition problem, something th at night have demanded higher rpm. It just seems to me that not every thing has been examined and/or analyzed.=0A=0APaul Rodriguez =0A601XL/Corvair=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A ----- Original Message --- -- =0A From: Gig Giacona =0A To: zenith-list@matronics.com =0A Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 3:11 PM=0A Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings=0A=0A=0A --> Zenith-L ist message posted by: "Gig Giacona" >=0A=0A If you are going to quote it quote it all. That witness was 1/2 mile away and also heard the engin e being "revved up" repeatedly. =0A=0A=0A > One witness, loc ated about 1/2 mile north of the accident site, stated that he was out side on his break when his attention was drawn toward the direction of the accident airplane that was flying overhead towards Oakdale airpor t. The airplane was about 800 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). He stated that he heard a "very loud" engine and it sounded as if it w ere being "revved up" repeatedly. As the airplane flew to the southwes t, he saw the wings visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the airplane. The witness stated that t he engine noise momentarily increased in pitch and volume before the " left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the" fuselage of the a irplane. The nose pitched down and the airplane entered a spin to the right. The right wing collapsed upward and folded back against the fus elage. He stated that the airplane impacted the ground in a 45-degree angle, and exploded on impact. The witness further reported t!=0A hat the wings remained attached to the airplane, but folded back duri ng the accident sequence. He added that he did not see any components separate from the airplane prior to impacting the ground.=0A > =0A > Additional witnesses from various locations surrounding the acc ident site reported that the airplane flew a wide arc to enter the tra ffic pattern. The engine sounded very loud, as if it were alternately being "revved up to full rpm and then going to idle." The left wing of the airplane collapsed upward, and it entered a nose down 60-degree s pin to the right. The airplane completed one full revolution before th e right wing collapsed upward and folded back. The airplane then struc k the ground.=0A=0A=0A --------=0A W.R. "Gig" Giacona=0A 601XL Under Construction=0A See my progress at www. peoamerica.net/N601WR=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A Read this topic online here:=0A=0A http://foru ms.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113429#113429=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ======================= ======================0A ======================= ======================= ======================= ======================= ======0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? From: "DaveG601XL" I don't have my fuselage on gear yet to make my own determination, but I am considering not installing the cabin access step on my tri-gear 601XL. I remember thinking that on the factory demo plane that I could get up without it. I could have a cheap plastic stool in a wing baggage compartment for passengers and still be ahead on weight and drag. I figure that I would be out with them to assist their entry & egress anyway. Anybody out there who has not installed the step have any positive or negative advice on this? Thanks. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, starting fueslage. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113635#113635 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? From: "Gig Giacona" Dave, I think you could do away with it but having it, IMHO, cuts down on the chance somebody is going to step on the flap while getting in. Also getting in is not the only time it is used. You use it to get outs as well. I modified mine so the crossbar, that goes under the fuselage now goes though the fuselage. DaveG601XL wrote: > I don't have my fuselage on gear yet to make my own determination, but I am considering not installing the cabin access step on my tri-gear 601XL. I remember thinking that on the factory demo plane that I could get up without it. I could have a cheap plastic stool in a wing baggage compartment for passengers and still be ahead on weight and drag. I figure that I would be out with them to assist their entry & egress anyway. > > Anybody out there who has not installed the step have any positive or negative advice on this? > > Thanks. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113643#113643 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tire Pressure From: "Gig Giacona" They got it from the tire manufacturer, Condor. Look on page 6 of the build manual 6-G. There is a picture of the chart. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-gear.pdf -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113644#113644 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:24 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings Paul, I think you are ignoring the aerodynamic destabilizing effect of the folded wing. Very rarely will a wing fold occur normal to the zero lift line and cause rotation during descent purely as a result of the lift assemtry. The wild gyrations that are the norm for wing fold incidents whether in an ultralight or an ZR71 are usually due to the gross roll, pitch, and yaw forces input from the (still attached) failed wing. The pulsating and very rapid onset of those abnormal forces usually causes the remaining wing (and many times the tail) to fail rapidly thereafter. Sometimes the aft fuselage wiull twist more than 360 or even off the balance of the wreckage during the descent. paulrod36@msn.com wrote: Not to pick nits here, but the testimony doesn't seem to make sense. If the left wing collapsed and folded rearward, it no longer provided lift. Therefore, the aircraft should have spun to the left. No amount of right rudder could compensate for that loss of lift. There should have been strong turning moment until the right wing gave up. The witness states that the wings remained attached, but folded back. Therefore, the report should discuss either a fracture somewhere in the structure, or a humongous (that's a technical term) folding or bending, all at a specifically identifiable point. If one witness stated he saw what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the plane, then SOMEBODY should have walked the area to either find the pieces or negate the testimony. You don't just ignore a possible debris field. With the reports of hearing the engine being revved, I wonder if anyone looked at the powerplane for fuel restrictions, ignition problem, something that night have demanded higher rpm. It just seems to me that not everything has been examined and/or analyzed. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: Gig Giacona To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 3:11 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings If you are going to quote it quote it all. That witness was 1/2 mile away and also heard the engine being "revved up" repeatedly. > One witness, located about 1/2 mile north of the accident site, stated that he was outside on his break when his attention was drawn toward the direction of the accident airplane that was flying overhead towards Oakdale airport. The airplane was about 800 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). He stated that he heard a "very loud" engine and it sounded as if it were being "revved up" repeatedly. As the airplane flew to the southwest, he saw the wings visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were pieces of metal separate from the airplane. The witness stated that the engine noise momentarily increased in pitch and volume before the "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the" fuselage of the airplane. The nose pitched down and the airplane entered a spin to the right. The right wing collapsed upward and folded back against the fuselage. He stated that the airplane impacted the ground in a 45-degree angle, and exploded on impact. The witness further reported t! hat the wings remained attached to the airplane, but folded back during the accident sequence. He added that he did not see any components separate from the airplane prior to impacting the ground. > > Additional witnesses from various locations surrounding the accident site reported that the airplane flew a wide arc to enter the traffic pattern. The engine sounded very loud, as if it were alternately being "revved up to full rpm and then going to idle." The left wing of the airplane collapsed upward, and it entered a nose down 60-degree spin to the right. The airplane completed one full revolution before the right wing collapsed upward and folded back. The airplane then struck the ground. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113429#113429 Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA Zodiac 601XL/Corvair? --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:02 PM PST US From: "george may" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure At least this guy knows how to read the assembly guide-----and utilize it do not archive >From: "robert stone" >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 07:20:06 -0500 > >Hay Wade, > I have 25 pounds in all three and I thought it was a little high. >Can you believe what this guy told me!!! > > > >50 lbs. > >George May >601XL 912s---74 hours > >Tracy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: wade jones > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 7:02 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure > > > Hi Tracy ,I don't know what the correct tire pressure is for the 601XL >.My Tripacer calls for 22# mains and 15# nose ,this is for a 2000# gross >aircraft . > Wade Jones South Texas > 601XL plans building > Cont. 0200 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: robert stone > To: Zenith list > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:03 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure > > > Members, > Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on the >ZodiacXL with tri-gear. > > Tracy Stone > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tire Pressure From: "Tim Juhl" Boy! Talk about hot of the press.... Gig, thanks for pointing out the new pictorial gear guide. I hadn't seen it yet. Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113651#113651 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:48 PM PST US From: Phil Maxson Subject: Zenith-List: One Possibility on How Threads like "Flutter" and "Stuctural Failure" Get Started When I first started building N601MX, I knew very little about building. I THOUGHT I knew something about flying, but in retrospect I was only starti ng to learn. When people say things like "Flutter" and "Structural Failure " it gets some people a little jumpy. Some people who may not feel confide nt in their project may momentarily loose heart. You can almost see it in some of their posts. The number of emails goes up, the amount of informati on in the emails goes down, and we're left at the end with no conclusions. Then in a little while, they get back to building (or in my case flying) a nd realize how much fun this whole thing is. It sure would be nicer if we didn't have to wade through all the words to find out someone is just tempo rarily scared. Frequently is best to wait and get more information as it b ecomes available. I am the kind of person who reads all of the NTSB accident reports I can, l ooking for anything I can learn. I currently see nothing in these reports that makes me want to stop flying or stop carrying passengers. The 601XL i s about as docile and well tested as any homebuilt design. With the take-o ff, climb and landing performance of my plane, I feel it is much safer than the rental 172s I was flying. Also, I KNOW my plane inside and out. It r eally pays to fly one plane repeatedly and know it's quirks and strengths. Chris Heintz has done a great job with the 601, 701 and 801 series. He dese rves his place the EAA Hall of Fame. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Northwest New Jersey _________________________________________________________________ Change is good. See what=92s different about Windows Live Hotmail. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/default.html?locale=en-us&oc id=RMT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_changegood_0507 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:07 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Chris Heintz instructions are to allow the tires to depress by one third of distance from rim to ground to allow them to absorb some of the shock (on the 601 HDS). You don't want them too hard. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ----- Original Message ----- From: "george may" Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure > > 50lbs. > > George May > 601XL 912s---74 hours > > >>From: "robert stone" >>To: "Zenith list" >>Subject: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure >>Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 21:03:08 -0500 >> >>Members, >> Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on the >> ZodiacXL with tri-gear. >> >>Tracy Stone > > _________________________________________________________________ > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail-award-winning Windows > Live Hotmail. > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:23 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure Isn't the pressure indicated on the side of the tire the max pressure before it explodes? Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:08 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure > > Robert, > Usually the tire specifies tire pressure on the side in fine print. For > the weight of a loaded XL, the tire pressure could > be below this amount by 3 to 4 lbs to reduce the wear and soften landings > on the tires. Depends a bit more on what > specific tire you have to give an accurate answer, but 28 to 31 lbs would > be a good guess for a 33 psi tire. > > Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com > do not archive > > robert stone wrote: >> Members, >> Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on the >> ZodiacXL with tri-gear. >> Tracy Stone > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:41 PM PST US From: "Dennis Shoup" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure 50 psi is the maximum, not the reccomended pressure. At 50 psi a 5.00x5 6p r tire has a rated maximum load of 1285 lbs. per tire, or 3855 lbs on three o f them. A 601XL with a max gross weight of 1320 lbs isn't even close. I don't know what the proper pressure is, but it is certainly much less than 50 psi. On 5/18/07, george may wrote: > > > At least this guy knows how to read the assembly guide-----and utilize it > > do not archive > > >From: "robert stone" > >To: > >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure > >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 07:20:06 -0500 > > > >Hay Wade, > > I have 25 pounds in all three and I thought it was a little high .. > >Can you believe what this guy told me!!! > > > > > > > >50 lbs. > > > >George May > >601XL 912s---74 hours > > > >Tracy > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: wade jones > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 7:02 AM > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure > > > > > > Hi Tracy ,I don't know what the correct tire pressure is for the 601X L > >.My Tripacer calls for 22# mains and 15# nose ,this is for a 2000# gross > >aircraft . > > Wade Jones South Texas > > 601XL plans building > > Cont. 0200 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: robert stone > > To: Zenith list > > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:03 PM > > Subject: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure > > > > > > Members, > > Who can tell me what the tire pressure is supposed to be on th e > >ZodiacXL with tri-gear. > > > > Tracy Stone > > > > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"> > http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com"> > http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > More photos, more messages, more storage=97get 2GB with Windows Live > Hotmail. > > =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:39 PM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? I rarely use mine. I prefer to sit on the front of the wing and slide backward. It can be added later if desired. Gary Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaveG601XL" Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 2:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? > > I don't have my fuselage on gear yet to make my own determination, but I am considering not installing the cabin access step on my tri-gear 601XL. I remember thinking that on the factory demo plane that I could get up without it. I could have a cheap plastic stool in a wing baggage compartment for passengers and still be ahead on weight and drag. I figure that I would be out with them to assist their entry & egress anyway. > > Anybody out there who has not installed the step have any positive or negative advice on this? > > Thanks. > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL, tail and wings completed, > starting fueslage. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113635#113635 > > > -- 5:18 PM > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tire Pressure From: "Tim Juhl" IMO I think 50 psi is too high. That may well be the max pressure allowed by the tire manufacturer but that doesn't mean that the tire should be pumped up that high on such a light aircraft. For example - 6:00-6 4 ply tires have a max inflation pressure of 29 psi. On my L16 Champ, the USAF recommended a max inflation of 15 psi. The reduced pressure provides an important shock absorbing effect for the landing gear. It is the aircraft manufacturer (you) that determines recommended tire pressures. I found a formula that may be of some use: Weight on tire x max tire pressure x 1.04 Tire Load Rating = inflation pressure of tire (when AC resting on wheels) For example, if we assume a weight of 600 lbs on a main tire then it would be 600 x 50 x 1.04 1285 or 24 psi Just something to think about..... Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113665#113665 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:59 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Folded wing the hard way Cann't find the post that ref. to the ZR-71 but think it should have been SR-71= Black Bird. Maybe we should be building the F-15, see the link below. Jerry-GA _http://www.sonnyradio.com/F15.wmv_ (http://www.sonnyradio.com/F15.wmv) DO NOT ARCHIVE ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:34 PM PST US From: "Robin Bellach" <601zv@ritternet.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure That was precisely my first thought, as the Condor tires I received from ZAC are rated 1285 lb., but what about the load that would be imparted by a hard landing - should not that be considered? ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Shoup To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Tire Pressure 50 psi is the maximum, not the reccomended pressure. At 50 psi a 5.00x5 6pr tire has a rated maximum load of 1285 lbs. per tire, or 3855 lbs on three of them. A 601XL with a max gross weight of 1320 lbs isn't even close. I don't know what the proper pressure is, but it is certainly much less than 50 psi. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:41 PM PST US From: "john H" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 main gear Bungees Hi List It looks like it is time to change the right main gear bungees on my 601HD. I am not looking forward to this job. I didn't install the original ones and it looks like it will be a pain in the a_ _ . I am not sure which bungees to use. The 1080 are rated for 750lbs with the 2 required for each main equaling a rating of1500lbs. The 1080HD are rated for 900lbs equaling a rating of 1800lbs. Which do I use? Does anyone have an easy way to do this job? I have checked the archives and it doesn't look like fun dealing with the bolts and nuts on the gear box. Thanks in advance John 601HD 912ul and no problems with the wings even in some pretty heavy turbulence _________________________________________________________________ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? Youll love Windows Live Hotmail. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:02 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Tire Pressure I just looked at 6-G-1, 6-G-2, and 6-G-3 and there is no chart and the required tire pressure is not shown!!! Tracy Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tire Pressure > > > They got it from the tire manufacturer, Condor. Look on page 6 of the > build manual 6-G. There is a picture of the chart. > > http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-gear.pdf > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113644#113644 > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:42 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: One possibility on How Threads like "Flutter" and "Structural" Phil is on the money about all the dust in the air. And words have meaning. The word "Failure" is one example. I learned in an accident investigation course that "Failure" is rarely used by investigators. Rather, the event is described with precise terms as "collapsed, fractured, ruptured, deformed" or other appropriate term. "Failure" implies that the part did not meet design goals. Legalistic hair splitting. I apologize. That said, I am with Phil and others that have expressed confidence in the design. I remain tuned in to the list for any thing new. The only thing that has changed for me is that I may not base at the 3500' paved airport, but on my property. I am trying to buy a 75' by 1600' piece of land abutting my property. Its too late and I'm unwilling to change projects to a 701. I think the climb prop that I have on hand will make the XL work out OK. At least that's what I have been told. Do not archive Bob XL/Lyc ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:46 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD Bungee John, drawing 6-L-0 list all bungee as P/N: 1080HD for the 601HD. I have not installed mine so cann't help there but other's web site does show U clamps being used. Jerry-GA Hi List It looks like it is time to change the right main gear bungees on my 601HD. DO NOT ARCHIVE" ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Tire Pressure From: "Gig Giacona" Not the planes the construction manual. Follow this link. [url]http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-gear.pdf [/url] rstone4(at)hot.rr.com wrote: > I just looked at 6-G-1, 6-G-2, and 6-G-3 and there is no chart and the > required tire pressure is not shown!!! > > Tracy Stone > > --- -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113708#113708 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:11 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One possibility on How Threads like "Flutter" and "Structural" Hi Max, I think the XL is supposed to have a 500 foot takeoff distance. I am not sure which engine that supposes, but I think 1600 feet is plenty of runway for an XL. The more difficult issue, I think, will be landing on a shorter strip. That can be enhanced using an LRI or other AOA device to allow minimum approach speeds. When I think of the issues with renting a hangar at the local paved airport, I wish I could come up with even a thousand foot runway at my place. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 04:00 PM 5/18/2007, you wrote: >Phil is on the money about all the dust in the air. And words have >meaning. The word "Failure" is one example. I learned in an accident >investigation course that "Failure" is rarely used by investigators. >Rather, the event is described with precise terms as "collapsed, >fractured, ruptured, deformed" or other appropriate term. "Failure" >implies that the part did not meet design goals. Legalistic hair >splitting. I apologize. That said, I am with Phil and others that >have expressed confidence in the design. I remain tuned in to the >list for any thing new. The only thing that has changed for me is >that I may not base at the 3500' paved airport, but on my property. >I am trying to buy a 75' by 1600' piece of land abutting my >property. Its too late and I'm unwilling to change projects to a >701. I think the climb prop that I have on hand will make the XL >work out OK. At least that's what I have been told. >Do not archive >Bob >XL/Lyc > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "Ron Lendon" Well I guess I better put the center of that center wing spar in the center of the fuselage because that is where I measured everything from when I set the dihedral on the bench. Did one wing spar at a time like the picture below. Center spar was pilot drilled 1/4, marked the wing spars then drilled them then reset the wing spar and checked dimensions when it was bolted with 1/4, opened the holes one hole at a time while the center and wing were in final position. Let me know what troubles this might give me. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113712#113712 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/100_1070_115.jpg ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? From: "Ron Lendon" Heard that question, sitting on the wing leading edge, asked of Chris Heintz at SnF 2007. His reply was to increase the number of nose ribs to match the 4 in the rear in that area. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113713#113713 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.