---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/21/07: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:42 AM - Lay it to rest!!! (chrisoz@bmail.com.au) 2. 12:48 AM - Fuel flow meter Rotax 914 or fuel injected engine (chrisoz@bmail.com.au) 3. 02:03 AM - Re: Fuel flow meter Rotax 914 or fuel injected engine (Peter Franke) 4. 03:25 AM - Re: Re: Questions (Kevin L. Rupert) 5. 03:34 AM - Re: Help for Zenith 601 and corvair builders (Juan Vega) 6. 05:25 AM - Tri Gear 601, step or no step (charles.long@gm.com) 7. 05:49 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (cbaron66) 8. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Questions (David Mikesell) 9. 07:13 AM - Re: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? (japhillipsga@aol.com) 10. 07:32 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (austria) 11. 07:52 AM - Re: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? () 12. 07:52 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (ashontz) 13. 07:56 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (ashontz) 14. 08:03 AM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (ashontz) 15. 08:14 AM - Flutter Testing (Michael Valentine) 16. 08:26 AM - Re: The last word . . . I hope. (ashontz) 17. 09:05 AM - Re: Flutter Testing (John Bolding) 18. 09:25 AM - Re: Fuel flow meter Rotax 914 or fuel injected engine (Craig Payne) 19. 10:53 AM - Re: Help for Zenith 601 and corvair builders (PatrickW) 20. 12:53 PM - Re: wing baggage fastenerswing baggage fasteners (Tim Juhl) 21. 01:16 PM - Zodiac 601-XL (Joe) 22. 02:11 PM - Who was the Dynon employee building a 601? (Gig Giacona) 23. 04:52 PM - Re: Flutter Testing (ROBERT SCEPPA) 24. 07:02 PM - Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings (Ron Lendon) 25. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: Questions (Ronald Steele) 26. 07:34 PM - Remove from List (ok2av8@aol.com) 27. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Questions (David Mikesell) 28. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: Questions (Ronald Steele) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Lay it to rest!!! From: chrisoz@bmail.com.au Can we please stop talking about balanced or unbalanced ailerons here? It is getting stale big time. It just so happens that the 601 family has unbalanced ailerons. And no aileron hinges. Live with it! I have been on this list for 7 years, and this is one of the less productive lines of discussion, plus it makes the 601 look unsafe to all and sundry, newbies to the site and my wife if she ever bothered to read the list. Chris from Oz ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel flow meter Rotax 914 or fuel injected engine From: chrisoz@bmail.com.au Hello Listers, I have been wondering how I can install a fuel flow meter with a fuel injected engine or a Rotax 914. Both types of engine have fuel return lines that lead excess fuel back to the tank. A fuel flow meter on the fuel line from the tank to the engine would therefore overread the used fuel amount. Also, would the fuel return line necessarily have to go back to the fuel tank or could it just be hooked back into the gascolator if the pump is between the gascolator and the engine? In that case it would be possible to put the fuel flow meter between the tank and the gascolator and have accurate readings. Don't want to stuff this one up, the sound of silence on the test flight of my 914 would spoil the day.... Cheers, Chris from Oz Building Zodiac number 5... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:30 AM PST US From: "Peter Franke" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel flow meter Rotax 914 or fuel injected engine Hi Chris, I think this might be what you're after. http://www.matronics.com/ftp/PDFs/rfc.pdf Put a flow meter on the line going to the engine, and another one on the return line, and this little do-dad calculates the difference. Cheers, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of chrisoz@bmail.com.au Sent: Monday, 21 May 2007 5:48 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel flow meter Rotax 914 or fuel injected engine Hello Listers, I have been wondering how I can install a fuel flow meter with a fuel injected engine or a Rotax 914. Both types of engine have fuel return lines that lead excess fuel back to the tank. A fuel flow meter on the fuel line from the tank to the engine would therefore overread the used fuel amount. Also, would the fuel return line necessarily have to go back to the fuel tank or could it just be hooked back into the gascolator if the pump is between the gascolator and the engine? In that case it would be possible to put the fuel flow meter between the tank and the gascolator and have accurate readings. Don't want to stuff this one up, the sound of silence on the test flight of my 914 would spoil the day.... Cheers, Chris from Oz Building Zodiac number 5... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:09 AM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Questions Maybe that statement was painted with too wide a brush. I was referring to to the older ragwing Cessna's and pipers and although they are statically balanced, they are not dynamically balanced as the newer models are. My apologies. KLR ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:01 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help for Zenith 601 and corvair builders bill. i saw you article in the magazine. on the KR nice plane great job.. -----Original Message----- >From: William Clapp >Sent: May 21, 2007 1:30 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Help for Zenith 601 and corvair builders > > >This is my first post to this site and I would like to welcome you to visit my web site (not finished yet) at www.billclapp.com. You may find some information there that would be useful for you as a Zenith builder and pilot. Since my work with Flycorvair .com and KRs has grown I have been starting to expand into helping the Zenith market as well. I hope to be able to help you all in what I can. Thank you....Bill Clapp > >-------- >Check out my web site - see if I can help you in your dreams.... > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113940#113940 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Tri Gear 601, step or no step From: charles.long@gm.com Having now flown 100+ hours in my HDS, I would have to say that the step is quite useful for boarding and unboarding the plane. It is especially useful for older folks, and Young Eagle flights. I know it is some extra work to install, and it does add a bit of extra weight & drag, but like the aileron trim, I believe you will be happy you took the extra time to install it. I would also recommend the rear wing reinforcement for the HD & HDS versions. I have had many people step on that area, even though I tell them to "stay on the black". Clear Skies! Chuck Long Zodie Rocket N601LE, 105 hr TT ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "cbaron66" Now that is a scary video!!! [Shocked] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113959#113959 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:23 AM PST US From: "David Mikesell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Questions I did not say the 601 had to have them, my comment was how a A&P with a IA thinks Cessna 150, 152,172,182,205,206,210, etc doesn't have a balanced control surface? David Mikesell 23597 N. Hwy 99 Acampo, CA 95220 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "TxDave" Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Questions > > Gee!! I wonder how that factory demo plane has survived all these years > without balanced ailerons. I guess the Heintz family has just been lucky, > huh? I know...maybe we should call and warn them they're flying a death > trap! > (SERIOUS SARCASM INTENDED) > > "A Brief Note from Zenith Aircraft Company: > We are pleased to report that our red and white factory demonstrator > Zodiac XL (N9601Z) is now six years old and has logged over 1,000 hours. > The aircraft has crisscrossed the United States dozens of times through > all kinds of conditions. We fly well over 300 demo flights per year in > this aircraft; that's over 1,800 passengers over the last 6 years. > Additionally, over 15,000 people have taken a seat in this aircraft over > the years at different shows and fly-ins, as well as at the factory. The > plane flies as well today as it did when it was new; we feel very > fortunate being the kit manufacturer for such a fine aircraft. The fact > that our demo plane still looks and performs as well as it does is a > testament to the design's integrity and robustness." > > > Dave > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113942#113942 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? From: japhillipsga@aol.com Ed, I'm 5,8 and a step is really necessary, not for entry cause I can step up and over the flap, but to get off the wing without jumping or putting all the shift weight onto the turtle deck a step is needed. What I would do different if building again is employ the torq rod inside method of mounting the steps. Sometime back (couple years) a builder posted some really great photos (somewhere ?) of how he modified the whole step system where only a hole in the bottom was made and the step came out. Looked real neat and I wish I had thought of it when I was building. Flew my "death trap" XL yesterday with a good friend. He had never experienced power on and off stalls before. Hope he'll fly with me again someday. Ha. Best regards, Bill of Georgia -----Original Message----- From: dredmoody@cox.net Sent: Sat, 19 May 2007 7:57 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? Regardless of the number of nose ribs your kit has or whether or not you care to add one more nose rib, most of us can get onto the wing from the trailing edge without a step installed. Unless you have bum kness, you can (from the left side for example) put your left knee ove the flap onto the wing walk area and with your left hand gripping the cockpit side rail, you can pull your carcass, including the sole of your right foot, onto the wing walk. The key is to remember to drop the flaps to full extended position when you park the plane. With all the other little concessions to heavier conveniences that I have made, I am seriously considering leaving the entry step off my 601XL. A bit less weight, a bit less drag, and no opportunity for a heavy passenger to load his or her weight farther aft of the main wheels...... it's worth thinking about. For the seriously stiff or inflexible, a paint can with a string attached to the lid would be an option on occassion. Dred ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "austria" Wing flutter video: http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/Videos/dg-300-flatterversuch.wmv Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113976#113976 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:17 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Anybody delete the cabin access step?? I'm still chewing on the options Bill. I had no trouble getting in or out of an RV7-A that belongs to a friend of mine. That wing is higher off the ground than the Zodiac wing. It is mostly a matter of repeating the routine in reverse to get back on the ground. The biggest negative is putting one's weight one one knee during the process. I'm 5' 8" also so your advice is as valid for me as it is for you. The friend with the RV7-A was with me at a fly-in this weekend and we discussed possibly flying out your way in the late summer this year (a weekend adventure?). I'd like to bum a ride in the Zodiac if you'll have me. It would help get my mind right vis a vis the likelihood of flying mine late this year. We'd both like to see the RV8 project as well. Think we could work that out? What is your airport designation? Ed ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "ashontz" Ron Lendon wrote: > Andy, > > I noticed you mentioned you only drilled one side of the center spar. I set the dihedral of both wing spars and the center spar before I began the wing assembly. Did I make a mistake here? Should I have waited to drill one end till later? Why? I only have one wing spar so far. :) The center spar is hanging on the wall. When I'm ready to drill the other I'll set that up flat on the table and set that dyhedral and drill that spar. Sounds like you made both spars at the same time. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113982#113982 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "ashontz" This can be done one at a time I believe. The plans show the tip height about the center spar. Shouldn't really matter if you do one at a time or both at one, what does matter is that the line drawn to the center spar is parallel to the center sparline and the perpendicular line up to the parallel line from the tip is the measurement called for. In fact, this is hard to do with both spars at the same time because then you need a 27 foot table to do it right. zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: > If you?re a plans builder then you would need to install both spars in > the center spar, run a string and do the math to ensure that both spars > are equally set and proper. Their may be other ways but I can't think of > one that would guarantee accuracy for the plans builder. Then you are > safe to move on and make each wing, knowing that your center spar is > correct and ready for installation into the fuselage. > > Mark Townsend > Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. > president@can-zacaviation.com > www.can-zacaviation.com > > > -- -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113987#113987 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "ashontz" Ron Lendon wrote: > Well I guess I better put the center of that center wing spar in the center of the fuselage because that is where I measured everything from when I set the dihedral on the bench. Did one wing spar at a time like the picture below. Center spar was pilot drilled 1/4, marked the wing spars then drilled them then reset the wing spar and checked dimensions when it was bolted with 1/4, opened the holes one hole at a time while the center and wing were in final position. Let me know what troubles this might give me. This is exactly how I'm doing mine, I just don't have the second spar yet. Doing them both at once requires a 27 foot table. I doubt that was Zenith's intention. Even doing them both at once, you still have to guarantee that the center spar is parallel to the line intersecting the tips, which is exactly the same as insuring a parellel line for one spar at a time. I think you're fine they way you did it. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113988#113988 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:46 AM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Zenith-List: Flutter Testing A friend in my EAA chapter told me that when he built a Vari-EZ, Burt Rutan instructed that builders should do a flutter test on their airplanes. This test was performed by putting the plane in a slight dive and trimmed hands off at Vne. Then, the pilot was supposed to sharply rap the control stick. My friend said that this was the only flight testing for which he wore a parachute, despite the fact that he suspected it would be futile! I was just wondering if anyone has done a similar test in his/her own 601XL? Does anyone know if CH has done a similar test (I heard a rumor that Vne testing was the only stage for which he donned a chute, but I don't know about flutter testing)? Michael in NH 601XL in progress ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The last word . . . I hope. From: "ashontz" Thanks but I'm very confident in my flying and building skills. p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: > Andy, > > Maybe it is a good time for you to review your whole project. The HD > is a completely different plane from the XL. They do have > interchangeable tail parts, but even those are a little different - > due to the changes to strengthen the tail to meet the LSA consensus > standard. However, the "Mission" for these planes is quite different. > > The HD is designed to have the qualities of a primary trainer. The > XL is designed for cross country flying. There are many differences > in these missions. > > Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are building a plane, what > you intend to do with it, and how advanced your pilot skills are. If > your plans involve flying mostly within gliding distance of your > starting point and your pilot skills are more similar to a primary > student than a commercial pilot, then the HD might indeed be a good > choice for you. On the other hand, if you plan to do a considerable > amount of cross country flying and your experience includes lots of > hours and instrument time along with much long distance travel then > the XL would be a lot more appropriate. > > Please note that I didn't include any reference to the possible > design issues with the XL. While I am concerned about that, I think > the other points are much more important to choosing which plane to > build. If your only concern is safety and you have trouble sleeping > because there MIGHT be problem that impacts a small percentage of XLs > then I suggest you consider taking up a different hobby. There is NO > WAY to make experimental airplane flying a completely safe > endeavor. While flying your XL will probably still be safer than > driving to the airport to start your flight there will always be > considerable possibility of a fatal accident flying any airplane and > even higher probably of an accident when it is an experimental > airplane built by an amateur rather than a factory built certified plane. > > The bottom line is that life is an adventure which always ends in > death. Perhaps Shakespeare said it best in Julius Caesar: > > "Cowards die many times before their deaths; > The valiant never taste of death but once." > > Good luck with your dilemma, > > Paul > XL fuselage > > At 07:34 AM 5/17/2007, you wrote: > > > Believe me, I've actually entertained the idea of just stopping work > > all together on the XL and ordering plans for an HD. Wouldn't take > > me anywhere near as long to rebuild. I wouldn't be surprised if the > > HD uses the same stabilizer, elevator, and rudder (not saying it > > does, I don't know) so all I'd really be shit out of would be the > > time and a couple hundred dollars building the right wing. > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113995#113995 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:55 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flutter Testing Michael, Sadly in the last 35 yrs that I've been messing with these little airplanes we have moved away from "everybody that built an airplane did their own structural/flutter testing as part of their 40hr test period" to one of "trust the designer to have covered ALL the bases and our butts, no matter what, and just use the 40 hrs to learn how to land it and find out how fast it cruises". Van also gave out those instructions to be followed during testing (don't know if he still does or not) as well as Thorp, Wittman, C.G. Taylor, Thurston and probably some other notables I've forgotten. It's not a fun thing to do, exciting is putting it mildly but you KNEW when you finished that it WAS NOT going to fold up on you or flutter. The flutter tests were done at MANY speeds, slowly building to Vne. The structural testing was done with a G meter at gross weight, increasing flight loads "till you were at or right below limit loads. I'll continue doing my own so I KNOW. LOW&SLOW John Bolding ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Valentine To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 10:14 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Flutter Testing A friend in my EAA chapter told me that when he built a Vari-EZ, Burt Rutan instructed that builders should do a flutter test on their airplanes. This test was performed by putting the plane in a slight dive and trimmed hands off at Vne. Then, the pilot was supposed to sharply rap the control stick. My friend said that this was the only flight testing for which he wore a parachute, despite the fact that he suspected it would be futile! I was just wondering if anyone has done a similar test in his/her own 601XL? Does anyone know if CH has done a similar test (I heard a rumor that Vne testing was the only stage for which he donned a chute, but I don't know about flutter testing)? Michael in NH 601XL in progress ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:37 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel flow meter Rotax 914 or fuel injected engine Some fuel flow monitors don't need a separate flow gauge on an injected engine. They just count the pulses to the injectors. MGL's are one example. Of course unlike a turbine flow sender that doesn't prove that fuel is actually flowing. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:04 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Help for Zenith 601 and corvair builders From: "PatrickW" Nice to see you here Bill. We've met before. Looking forward to Fargo this week... Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114016#114016 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: wing baggage fastenerswing baggage fasteners From: "Tim Juhl" Black thermoplastic half grommets from aircraft spruce - Type GP5B - price 6 each. They are shaped in such a way that they slip over the shaft of the DZUS fastener and then lock under the head. They are slightly dished in the center and a little thicker than milk carton material. They work very well. That said, if you want to make your own, have at it! Tim -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114028#114028 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:11 PM PST US From: "Joe" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac 601-XL Looking for pictures and or sketch's of 601XL w/lycoming 0235 C-1 mainly firewall forward and your instrument panels if possible. JH ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Who was the Dynon employee building a 601? From: "Gig Giacona" There was someone that posted here and was also a Dynon employee. Could you e-mail me off list? DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114047#114047 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:06 PM PST US From: ROBERT SCEPPA Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flutter Testing > A CHUTE PLUS A BRS!! do not archive --- Michael Valentine wrote: > A friend in my EAA chapter told me that when he > built a Vari-EZ, Burt Rutan > instructed that builders should do a flutter test on > their airplanes. This > test was performed by putting the plane in a slight > dive and trimmed hands > off at Vne. Then, the pilot was supposed to sharply > rap the control stick. > My friend said that this was the only flight testing > for which he wore a > parachute, despite the fact that he suspected it > would be futile! > > I was just wondering if anyone has done a similar > test in his/her own > 601XL? Does anyone know if CH has done a similar > test (I heard a rumor that > Vne testing was the only stage for which he donned a > chute, but I don't know > about flutter testing)? > > Michael in NH > 601XL in progress > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings From: "Ron Lendon" Yep, I did them both at the same time. When both right and left are symmetrically opposite its faster to make both parts at the same time. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114093#114093 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:21 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Questions (first post to this forum - working on xl rudder kit) I'm assuming you mean the surfaces are statically balanced. Could you describe mechanically how that works. I just flew in a 182 today and I'll be darned if I can see how it's done. All I can think of is a some sort of counter weight attached to the control linkage inside the wing. This seems like an iffy way to do static balancing as you have the slop in the control linkage that could contribute to flutter. Other than the control linkage there is nothing that extends forward of the aileron hinge that could account for a counter weight. If the you are talking about dynamic balance, I'm not real sure how you could know how it's balanced without access to Cessna's design and testing documents? I guess the same goes for the 601XL. Ron On May 21, 2007, at 9:39 AM, David Mikesell wrote: > > > I did not say the 601 had to have them, my comment was how a A&P > with a IA thinks Cessna 150, 152,172,182,205,206,210, etc doesn't > have a balanced control surface? > > > David Mikesell > 23597 N. Hwy 99 > Acampo, CA 95220 > 209-224-4485 > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > www.skyguynca.com > ----- Original Message ----- From: "TxDave" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:32 PM > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Questions > > >> >> Gee!! I wonder how that factory demo plane has survived all these >> years without balanced ailerons. I guess the Heintz family has >> just been lucky, huh? I know...maybe we should call and warn them >> they're flying a death trap! >> (SERIOUS SARCASM INTENDED) >> >> "A Brief Note from Zenith Aircraft Company: >> We are pleased to report that our red and white factory >> demonstrator Zodiac XL (N9601Z) is now six years old and has >> logged over 1,000 hours. The aircraft has crisscrossed the United >> States dozens of times through all kinds of conditions. We fly >> well over 300 demo flights per year in this aircraft; that's over >> 1,800 passengers over the last 6 years. Additionally, over 15,000 >> people have taken a seat in this aircraft over the years at >> different shows and fly-ins, as well as at the factory. The plane >> flies as well today as it did when it was new; we feel very >> fortunate being the kit manufacturer for such a fine aircraft. The >> fact that our demo plane still looks and performs as well as it >> does is a testament to the design's integrity and robustness." >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113942#113942 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Remove from List From: ok2av8@aol.com Please Remove ok2av8@aol.com from this list ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:34 PM PST US From: "David Mikesell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Questions Hi Ron, If you take the 182 aileron and move it with the trailing edge full up and then look inside the gap between the wing and the aileron at the lower edge at the front of the aileron you should see a lead bar about 5/8 of a in tall and about 1/2 wide riveted there, that is the counter balance. David Mikesell 23597 N. Hwy 99 Acampo, CA 95220 209-224-4485 skyguynca@skyguynca.com www.skyguynca.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Steele" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Questions > > (first post to this forum - working on xl rudder kit) > > I'm assuming you mean the surfaces are statically balanced. Could you > describe mechanically how that works. I just flew in a 182 today and > I'll be darned if I can see how it's done. All I can think of is a some > sort of counter weight attached to the control linkage inside the wing. > This seems like an iffy way to do static balancing as you have the slop > in the control linkage that could contribute to flutter. Other than the > control linkage there is nothing that extends forward of the aileron > hinge that could account for a counter weight. > > If the you are talking about dynamic balance, I'm not real sure how you > could know how it's balanced without access to Cessna's design and > testing documents? I guess the same goes for the 601XL. > > Ron > > > On May 21, 2007, at 9:39 AM, David Mikesell wrote: > >> >> >> I did not say the 601 had to have them, my comment was how a A&P with a >> IA thinks Cessna 150, 152,172,182,205,206,210, etc doesn't have a >> balanced control surface? >> >> >> >> David Mikesell >> 23597 N. Hwy 99 >> Acampo, CA 95220 >> 209-224-4485 >> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >> www.skyguynca.com >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "TxDave" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:32 PM >> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Questions >> >> >>> >>> Gee!! I wonder how that factory demo plane has survived all these years >>> without balanced ailerons. I guess the Heintz family has just been >>> lucky, huh? I know...maybe we should call and warn them they're flying >>> a death trap! >>> (SERIOUS SARCASM INTENDED) >>> >>> "A Brief Note from Zenith Aircraft Company: >>> We are pleased to report that our red and white factory demonstrator >>> Zodiac XL (N9601Z) is now six years old and has logged over 1,000 >>> hours. The aircraft has crisscrossed the United States dozens of times >>> through all kinds of conditions. We fly well over 300 demo flights per >>> year in this aircraft; that's over 1,800 passengers over the last 6 >>> years. Additionally, over 15,000 people have taken a seat in this >>> aircraft over the years at different shows and fly-ins, as well as at >>> the factory. The plane flies as well today as it did when it was new; >>> we feel very fortunate being the kit manufacturer for such a fine >>> aircraft. The fact that our demo plane still looks and performs as well >>> as it does is a testament to the design's integrity and robustness." >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113942#113942 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:49 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Questions Cool, I'll take a look during my next pre-flight (I'm a student). Thanks for the reply. Ron On May 21, 2007, at 10:48 PM, David Mikesell wrote: > > > Hi Ron, > > If you take the 182 aileron and move it with the trailing edge full > up and then look inside the gap between the wing and the aileron at > the lower edge at the front of the aileron you should see a lead > bar about 5/8 of a in tall and about 1/2 wide riveted there, that > is the counter balance. > > David Mikesell > 23597 N. Hwy 99 > Acampo, CA 95220 > 209-224-4485 > skyguynca@skyguynca.com > www.skyguynca.com > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Steele" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:11 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Questions > > >> >> (first post to this forum - working on xl rudder kit) >> >> I'm assuming you mean the surfaces are statically balanced. >> Could you describe mechanically how that works. I just flew in a >> 182 today and I'll be darned if I can see how it's done. All I >> can think of is a some sort of counter weight attached to the >> control linkage inside the wing. This seems like an iffy way to >> do static balancing as you have the slop in the control linkage >> that could contribute to flutter. Other than the control linkage >> there is nothing that extends forward of the aileron hinge that >> could account for a counter weight. >> >> If the you are talking about dynamic balance, I'm not real sure >> how you could know how it's balanced without access to Cessna's >> design and testing documents? I guess the same goes for the 601XL. >> >> Ron >> >> >> On May 21, 2007, at 9:39 AM, David Mikesell wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I did not say the 601 had to have them, my comment was how a A&P >>> with a IA thinks Cessna 150, 152,172,182,205,206,210, etc >>> doesn't have a balanced control surface? >>> >>> >>> >>> David Mikesell >>> 23597 N. Hwy 99 >>> Acampo, CA 95220 >>> 209-224-4485 >>> skyguynca@skyguynca.com >>> www.skyguynca.com >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "TxDave" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:32 PM >>> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Questions >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Gee!! I wonder how that factory demo plane has survived all >>>> these years without balanced ailerons. I guess the Heintz >>>> family has just been lucky, huh? I know...maybe we should call >>>> and warn them they're flying a death trap! >>>> (SERIOUS SARCASM INTENDED) >>>> >>>> "A Brief Note from Zenith Aircraft Company: >>>> We are pleased to report that our red and white factory >>>> demonstrator Zodiac XL (N9601Z) is now six years old and has >>>> logged over 1,000 hours. The aircraft has crisscrossed the >>>> United States dozens of times through all kinds of conditions. >>>> We fly well over 300 demo flights per year in this aircraft; >>>> that's over 1,800 passengers over the last 6 years. >>>> Additionally, over 15,000 people have taken a seat in this >>>> aircraft over the years at different shows and fly-ins, as well >>>> as at the factory. The plane flies as well today as it did when >>>> it was new; we feel very fortunate being the kit manufacturer >>>> for such a fine aircraft. The fact that our demo plane still >>>> looks and performs as well as it does is a testament to the >>>> design's integrity and robustness." >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113942#113942 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.