---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/02/07: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:32 AM - When to rivet rear fuselage (chris Sinfield) 2. 05:23 AM - Re: Short pieces (Zed Smith) 3. 05:56 AM - Re: Re: Short pieces (Jerry Hey) 4. 06:03 AM - Re: When to rivet rear fuselage (Michael Valentine) 5. 06:11 AM - Re: Re: Short pieces (Bill Naumuk) 6. 06:17 AM - Re: When to rivet rear fuselage (DaveG601XL) 7. 06:37 AM - Re: Re: Short pieces (Bill Naumuk) 8. 06:38 AM - Re: chrome nose strut (Bill Naumuk) 9. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Short pieces - Supply Sources (Jeff) 10. 06:45 AM - Re: When to rivet rear fuselage (Bill Naumuk) 11. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: Short pieces - Supply Sources (Bill Naumuk) 12. 07:51 AM - Re: Short pieces (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 13. 08:17 AM - Re: Short pieces (Dave Austin) 14. 08:18 AM - Re: When to rivet rear fuselage (Edward Moody II) 15. 08:29 AM - Dual stick option for 601HD? (ray) 16. 08:47 AM - Re: Short pieces (Bill Naumuk) 17. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: Short pieces - Supply Sources (Kevin L. Rupert) 18. 09:02 AM - Re: Dual stick option for 601HD? (Gary Boothe) 19. 09:08 AM - Re: Short pieces (Bill Naumuk) 20. 09:11 AM - Re: Dual stick option for 601HD? (Bill Naumuk) 21. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: When to rivet rear fuselage (Gary Ray) 22. 11:48 AM - Gascolator install (flyingmike9) 23. 02:40 PM - Re: Gascolator install (Clive Richards) 24. 02:51 PM - Re: Gascolator install (flyingmike9) 25. 03:03 PM - Re: Short pieces (Dave Austin) 26. 06:17 PM - Re: Gascolator install (RURUNY@aol.com) 27. 08:34 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator install (Saad Mahaini) 28. 10:32 PM - Re: Short pieces (Bill Naumuk) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:19 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: When to rivet rear fuselage From: "chris Sinfield" We are up to 6-B-11B fuselage assembly which talks about taking the fuselage assembly off the bench and on to stands, to make it easier to work on. My question is at what stage do you rivet the rear fuselage. The picture guides show that some pictures are riveted and some are still clecos. I am thinking that I would want all the aft area tight and locked in with rivets before I took it off the bench?? over to you fellow builders.. Chris.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116026#116026 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:09 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces Bill, and all.... Great idea. Sadly, I too have paid more in shipping charges than the part cost. Enough, already!! Bill, I'm not at the hangar to look in the scrap pile, but will look late in the day. Maybe others will pop up with the exact piece. Anyway, thanks for getting this thread started. I never understood why the vendors insist on using a parcel service when ( in the US at least) the postal system costs so much less. Regards to all, Zed do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:55 AM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces Simple, using a parcel service costs them nothing and is convenient. One hundred per cent of the cost is passed on to us. Jerry On Jun 2, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Zed Smith wrote: > > Bill, and all.... > > Great idea. Sadly, I too have paid more in shipping charges than > the part cost. > > Enough, already!! > > Bill, I'm not at the hangar to look in the scrap pile, but will > look late in the day. > > Maybe others will pop up with the exact piece. > > Anyway, thanks for getting this thread started. I never > understood why the vendors insist on using a parcel service when > ( in the US at least) the postal system costs so much less. > > Regards to all, > > Zed > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:58 AM PST US From: "Michael Valentine" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When to rivet rear fuselage Chris - I am pretty much at the same point. I riveted the rear fuse (except the front of the longerons and the most forward two L-stiffeners) before I moved on to the firewall. So, at the same stage you are at, I have a riveted rear fuse, a riveted firewall, and an unriveted cabin floor. Unfortunately, because we are at the same stage I can't tell you if this will be a problem later! I will note that my version of the guide said to rivet the rear fuse and other builders have told me they pretty much riveted when they ran out of clecoes. Michael in NH do not archive On 6/2/07, chris Sinfield wrote: > > chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au> > > We are up to 6-B-11B fuselage assembly which talks about taking the > fuselage assembly off the bench and on to stands, to make it easier to work > on. > > My question is at what stage do you rivet the rear fuselage. The picture > guides show that some pictures are riveted and some are still clecos. > > I am thinking that I would want all the aft area tight and locked in with > rivets before I took it off the bench?? > > over to you fellow builders.. > Chris.. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116026#116026 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:53 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces Zed- Thanks for the offer, I already have a piece of T6 angle on the way. Guess it doesn't hurt to ask, does it?! Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zed Smith" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 8:21 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces > > Bill, and all.... > > Great idea. Sadly, I too have paid more in shipping charges than the part > cost. > > Enough, already!! > > Bill, I'm not at the hangar to look in the scrap pile, but will look late > in the day. > > Maybe others will pop up with the exact piece. > > Anyway, thanks for getting this thread started. I never understood why > the vendors insist on using a parcel service when ( in the US at least) > the postal system costs so much less. > > Regards to all, > > Zed > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: When to rivet rear fuselage From: "DaveG601XL" Go ahead and rivet except for anything on the upper longeron, the Z-angle on the forward end of the access hole (due to the step fairing) and the two most forward vertical L-angles (due to the baggage deck and step fairing). You will need to free up cleco's because the rest of the fuselage will get almost all the way built-up before you can think about riveting it. Good luck! -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, tail and wings completed, working on fueslage. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116036#116036 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:21 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces Jerry- Well, they have to make a living, too. Plus, USPS is only cheaper for the little stuff. Get past about 2'x3' and UPS is 3 times less expensive. Bottom line is, one builder's scrap is another's raw material. I'd much rather swap with another builder than sell to the junkyard at five cents on the dollar (Or less). In our area, aluminum cans bring $.65/lb but T6 scraps only $.38/lb! Why? The government subsidizes can recycling because it keeps litter off the side of the road. The logical economic solution would be to throw your scraps on the side of the road to increase their value. But then again, "Logical Government" is an oxymoron. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Hey" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces > > Simple, using a parcel service costs them nothing and is convenient. One > hundred per cent of the cost is passed on to us. Jerry > > On Jun 2, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Zed Smith wrote: > >> >> Bill, and all.... >> >> Great idea. Sadly, I too have paid more in shipping charges than the >> part cost. >> >> Enough, already!! >> >> Bill, I'm not at the hangar to look in the scrap pile, but will look >> late in the day. >> >> Maybe others will pop up with the exact piece. >> >> Anyway, thanks for getting this thread started. I never understood why >> the vendors insist on using a parcel service when ( in the US at least) >> the postal system costs so much less. >> >> Regards to all, >> >> Zed >> >> do not archive >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:40 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: chrome nose strut At least I think it was a builder mod to begin with. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Naumuk" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: chrome nose strut > > All- > I was over to Lynn Dingfelder's last week to pick up my Corvair core > and noticed a Delrin top nose strut bearing on his enviable XL project. I > said "Oh, I see where you used Mac's bearings." Turns out the material > came with his kit. Can't ask for a better endorsement of what was > originally a builder mod than that! > do not archive > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LarryMcFarland" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: chrome nose strut > > >> >> Chris, >> You'd be better putting nylon bearings around the strut. This would make >> it quieter, wear indefinitely and yes, >> avoid hydrogen embrittlment, which in this case would not factor stress >> wise unless you did it where the plate >> and strut are welded together. Chrome is not a good dollar value here. >> Go with nylon, delrin plastics >> as available and you'll be much happier. Some have powder-coated struts >> too with less than satisfactory results. >> http://k-mac-plastics.net/index.htm >> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/upbrg.gif >> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/stratstops.gif >> >> Larry McFarland >> >> chris Sinfield wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi All >>> I was going to chrome the nose strut areas where the strut slides >>> through the blocks untill the electroplaters gave me some advise. >>> >>> They said that the areas would not hold up to the stress of a nose gear >>> strut due to hydrogen embrittlment. Hydrogen embrittlment will cause >>> cracking unless it is removed ( very expensive treatment) is that >>> correct? >>> Have others chromed their nose gear strut? >>> >>> Chris. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:37 AM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces - Supply Sources Bill, Check out this URL: http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleDillsburgAero.html About Dillsburg Aero. You may have the supplier for ACS, Wicks and others right in your backyard. You just need to know exactly what you want. Dillsburg does not advertise. You may be able to drive over and get what you want the same day. Since it is a word of mouth business, I can't say what Charlie's status is today, but it is worth finding out. All that inventory would take a decade to move out. Jeff Davidson ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:26 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When to rivet rear fuselage Chris- When I was at Brampford a couple of weeks ago, there was a guy (I believe his name was Mike) who built his entire plane in clecos in the basement, tore everything apart to get it out, then riveted. Guess you can theoretically wait forever. Best compromise I've heard of is to put in just enough rivets to stabilize the individual parts. If you know you're going to have to take them out later on, put them in upside down for easy identification. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris Sinfield" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 5:28 AM Subject: Zenith-List: When to rivet rear fuselage > > > We are up to 6-B-11B fuselage assembly which talks about taking the > fuselage assembly off the bench and on to stands, to make it easier to > work on. > > My question is at what stage do you rivet the rear fuselage. The picture > guides show that some pictures are riveted and some are still clecos. > > I am thinking that I would want all the aft area tight and locked in with > rivets before I took it off the bench?? > > over to you fellow builders.. > Chris.. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116026#116026 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:53 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces - Supply Sources Jeff- Unfortunately, York is a good 4-5 hour drive away. For those of you in Northwest Pennsylvania, (Northeast Ohio, Southwest N.Y.) I have been able to get some oddball stuff from the Warren Co., just a few blocks away from where I work in Erie. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff " Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces - Supply Sources > > > Bill, > Check out this URL: > http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleDillsburgAero.html > About Dillsburg Aero. You may have the supplier for ACS, Wicks and others > right in your backyard. You just need to know exactly what you want. > Dillsburg does not advertise. You may be able to drive over and get what > you want the same day. Since it is a word of mouth business, I can't say > what Charlie's status is today, but it is worth finding out. All that > inventory would take a decade to move out. > > Jeff Davidson > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:38 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Bill if you haven't found a piece of .090 send me your mail address and I will send you a piece. Jerry e-mail: jeyoung65@aol.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:48 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Great idea, but could all be sure to include "do not archive" to avoid contamination. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:37 AM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: When to rivet rear fuselage Also, if you have a squeezer and dimple dies, set 4 - 6 flush-set A4 tack rivets on each side to hold the rear side skins to the top longerons. It really helps keep things trued up the way they were when rivetted. Dred ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:40 AM PST US From: "ray" Subject: Zenith-List: Dual stick option for 601HD? Can the dual stick option for the 601XL be adapted to the 601HD? Thank You! ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:49 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Jerry- Got the material covered. Thanks for the offer. Everyone else- I don't think there are any of us builders out there on welfare, but there's no reason to be ashamed to swap for another builder's scrap. As I say, one man's scrap is the material the next guy needs. If we weren't practical to a degree, we'd all be flying A-36 Bonanzas! A guy at our local field has one, and Donald Trump's 727 has to have a lower seat/mile expense ratio!! do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeyoung65@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Bill if you haven't found a piece of .090 send me your mail address and I will send you a piece. Jerry e-mail: jeyoung65@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:00 AM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Short pieces - Supply Sources Jeff, I just spoke with Charlie at Dillsburg last week and he said he was getting out of the airplane business. Not enough turnover to make it profitable any more is what he told me. I was after aluminum and he didn't handle it anymore. He's not restocking when he sells out of an item. Kevin R. 601XL Lewistown, PA ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:14 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Dual stick option for 601HD? Yes. Also check out: http://www.ch601.org/ for a slightly more simple design. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section Can the dual stick option for the 601XL be adapted to the 601HD? Thank You! ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:22 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Dave- Check late posts- we're working on it. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Austin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Great idea, but could all be sure to include "do not archive" to avoid contamination. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:09 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dual stick option for 601HD? Ray- Check the HD/HDS builder info pages on the Zenith website- everything's available there. If you get lost, I have a hardcopy I could scan and send to you. If you've ever seen the "Extra" room in the cockpit, you'll go with the stock stick! do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: ray To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:28 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Dual stick option for 601HD? Can the dual stick option for the 601XL be adapted to the 601HD? Thank You! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:44 AM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: When to rivet rear fuselage I riveted my 601 XL basically from both ends towards the center and from the bottom up. Leaving the turtle deck and the side skin overlap for last without any problems. My front top skin is removable nutplated #8 w countersunk machine screw heads. This is a huge advantage during the wiring and troubleshooting phase later. Gary Ray ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Gascolator install From: "flyingmike9" started to install fuel system today and came across a small hitch i am buildig in the UK with the czw kit they have supplied a gascolator which is a weldment of aluminum box it has a flange on the top and bottom. my problem is that the drawing does not show what to fix it with ie riviets or bolts what have you guys out there done if using the same kit or what would you recommend to fit it to the firewall only drilled line up holes at the momment cheers Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116072#116072 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:46 PM PST US From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Gascolator install Mike I would check with your inspector but the PFA will not accept the ZAC Gascolator if it is the original ZAC Design ie an aluminium box with Just holes for the fuel pipes & drain tap you can use it as a water trap but must fit an aircraft gascolator with a filter incorporated. Clive Rays 601HD G-CBDG 120 Hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: "flyingmike9" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:46 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Gascolator install > > started to install fuel system today and came across a small hitch > i am buildig in the UK with the czw kit > they have supplied a gascolator which is a weldment of aluminum box > it has a flange on the top and bottom. > > my problem is that the drawing does not show what to fix it with > > ie riviets or bolts what have you guys out there done if using the same > kit or what would you recommend to fit it to the firewall only drilled > line up holes at the momment > > cheers > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116072#116072 > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Gascolator install From: "flyingmike9" do you think the PFA will allow the adair gascolator i not that impressed with the alluminum box that coms from zac Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116087#116087 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:12 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Great, Bill. Good to put a face to a familiar submitter! Do not archive Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:13 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Gascolator install Attached is a pic I took of a CZEC built 701 at Oshkosh 2004. Looks like 3 A5 rivets holding it on. I did not get one of these with my 701 firewall fwd kit. So..... Here is what I did with an ACS gascolator. Scroll down 3 pics. _http://www.701builder.com/engine15.htm_ (http://www.701builder.com/engine15.htm) Brian Unruh Long Island, NY _www.701builder.com_ (http://www.701builder.com) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:57 PM PST US From: "Saad Mahaini" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Gascolator install Man.You are an artist. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RURUNY@aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Gascolator install Attached is a pic I took of a CZEC built 701 at Oshkosh 2004. Looks like 3 A5 rivets holding it on. I did not get one of these with my 701 firewall fwd kit. So..... Here is what I did with an ACS gascolator. Scroll down 3 pics. http://www.701builder.com/engine15.htm Brian Unruh Long Island, NY www.701builder.com _____ See what's free at AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:42 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Dave- Are you the guy with the white HDS? If so, forgive me for thinking your name was Mike. I was wiped out floundering around the QEW an extra 100K missing the exit just after the Peace Bridge! Also, aren't Spitfires supposed to be camo green with roundels? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Austin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 6:00 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Short pieces Great, Bill. Good to put a face to a familiar submitter! Do not archive Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.