Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:14 AM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Paul Mulwitz)
2. 03:20 AM - Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? (chris Sinfield)
3. 03:45 AM - Re: 701 cover (rroberts)
4. 03:52 AM - Re: Swinging the compass (rroberts)
5. 05:35 AM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Robin Bellach)
6. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? (ken smith)
7. 07:16 AM - Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door (Tommy Walker)
8. 07:32 AM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
9. 07:32 AM - Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door (wade jones)
10. 07:50 AM - Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door (Kevin L. Rupert)
11. 08:07 AM - Bracket Problem (Leo Gates)
12. 08:12 AM - Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door (John Bolding)
13. 08:15 AM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Crvsecretary@aol.com)
14. 09:41 AM - Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door (Jim Hoak)
15. 09:44 AM - Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
16. 09:49 AM - Repairs to Plexiglass (Paul Mulwitz)
17. 10:43 AM - Re:Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (MaxNr@aol.com)
18. 10:46 AM - Re: Bracket problem (Zed Smith)
19. 11:15 AM - Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (Randy)
20. 11:24 AM - Re: Swinging the compass (Klaus Truemper)
21. 11:28 AM - Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door (Robert Schoenberger)
22. 11:29 AM - Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (T. Graziano)
23. 12:15 PM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Ken Lilja)
24. 12:27 PM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Paul Mulwitz)
25. 01:41 PM - Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (rick tedford)
26. 01:42 PM - Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door (Dave Austin)
27. 01:56 PM - Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (Jeff Small)
28. 02:25 PM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Robin Bellach)
29. 02:53 PM - Re: Repairs to Plexiglass (Bryan Martin)
30. 03:40 PM - WW's Black prop hub (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
31. 03:57 PM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (dfmoeller)
32. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Paul Mulwitz)
33. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Robin Bellach)
34. 05:49 PM - Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (Tim Juhl)
35. 07:01 PM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Ron Ellis)
36. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (Randy)
37. 08:05 PM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Southern Reflections)
38. 08:28 PM - Bracket (Leo Gates)
39. 08:31 PM - Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? (chris Sinfield)
40. 09:03 PM - 601 XL load testing (ZodieRocket)
41. 09:20 PM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Steve Shuck)
42. 09:30 PM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Gary Boothe)
43. 10:36 PM - Re: Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (Terry Phillips)
44. 11:03 PM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Hi Tracy,
My favorite old instructor had a lesson he repeated many times to me:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I don't understand why there should be a problem with the fuel system
as designed by Chris Heintz. Fuel is gravity fed from both tanks to
the fuel selector valve. Gravity works to get it to the
gascolator. Then it is pumped by one electric and one mechanical
pump to the engine. This is a completely round wheel.
The lister who moved on the RV project sounded like he knew what he
was talking about, but he was an engineer. You know how some
engineers can go down the garden path with eccentric ideas and never
find their way back. Perhaps the notion of putting a fuel pump on
each wing is a good one if you are using cheap auto fuel that is not
suited to high altitude use in airplanes. If you plan to use avgas,
as I do, I think the fuel system should work fine as originally designed.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 12:54 PM 6/19/2007, you wrote:
> - there was a prolific lister here some time ago that was
> exceptionally knowledgeable on vapor lock issues. He suggested
> eliminating the fuel selector completely and running a check valve
> at the outlet of each pump. That way BOTH pumps could supply fuel
> during takeoff and landing and ONE pump can run during
> cruise. When one pump is running, the check valve(s) will
> eliminate crossfeeding from one tank to another. In addition, by
> using a 2-gang rotary switch wired Left-Right-Left+Right there is
> no way the plane can suffer from NO pumps on due to pilot
> error. My only problem with this setup is that the one fuel pump
> switch presents a single point of failure.......
>
>Any thoughts??
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? |
Thanks Ken for the drawing offer
They just installed Autodesk Inventor (2008) at work so send in what ever version
you have it would be very much appreciated, and I should be able to read it.
regards
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119592#119592
Message 3
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Tommy,
If you want to purchase one, (I can imagine what my wife would say if I told her
she had to make anything), ZAC advertises Kennon Covers. [Question]
--------
Low & Slow
Rick
www.n701rr.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119594#119594
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Swinging the compass |
Guys,
True is usually printed WX, etc, or when you get so close to the poles... If it
comes from a cockpit it should be Magnetic. The variation does fluxuate across
the country/globe...check your Jep plates or Sec chart..
I will use a hand held compass and get out on the field between the taxiway and
the apron here at KCCO and lay my headings out. If they'll let you out on the
rwy be careful.
--------
Low & Slow
Rick
www.n701rr.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119596#119596
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
My 601XL plans have the fuel running uphill to the selector valve, with the
valve located above the tops of all 4 tanks. I am in the process of
extending the valve linkage to place the valve body on the cockpit floor to
eliminate the uphill run.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:13 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Hi Tracy,
>
> My favorite old instructor had a lesson he repeated many times to me: "If
> it ain't broke, don't fix it."
>
> I don't understand why there should be a problem with the fuel system as
> designed by Chris Heintz. Fuel is gravity fed from both tanks to the fuel
> selector valve. Gravity works to get it to the gascolator. Then it is
> pumped by one electric and one mechanical pump to the engine. This is a
> completely round wheel.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? |
do you have another email address. I tried to send but
the message was rejected...no such user at
yahoo.com.au
ken
--- chris Sinfield <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
>
> Thanks Ken for the drawing offer
> They just installed Autodesk Inventor (2008) at work
> so send in what ever version you have it would be
> very much appreciated, and I should be able to read
> it.
>
> regards
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119592#119592
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door |
Listers,
Unfortunately for me, I broke off the front lower corner of my pax door. How it
happened is, I was working on the latch and had the door propped open. A little
gremlin moved the prop and the door came crashing down on my forehead. That
is the hardest part on my body....
A small piece of the bubble door broke off. It is in the front lower corner the
area is about 4 inches long.
I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to repair this? Is there a type of glue
that would melt the two edges and let me weld them together? Looks aren't that
important, Especially considering the cost of a new door ($225.00 + shipping).
I could possibly glue a scab type patch over this area as well. I have
a little of the material left over from the cutting/fitting.
Any ideas appreciated.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Archive
--------
Tommy Walker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119622#119622
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Hi Joe, What part of the country do you live in? Jerry - GA
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door |
Hi Tommy at one time we used Acetone to glue Plexiglas .We also made our
model airplane glue by dissolving Plexiglas face shields in acetone .With
the different make up of materials today don't know if this still works .
Good luck
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door
>
> Listers,
>
> Unfortunately for me, I broke off the front lower corner of my pax door.
> How it happened is, I was working on the latch and had the door propped
> open. A little gremlin moved the prop and the door came crashing down on
> my forehead. That is the hardest part on my body....
>
> A small piece of the bubble door broke off. It is in the front lower
> corner the area is about 4 inches long.
>
> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to repair this? Is there a type
> of glue that would melt the two edges and let me weld them together?
> Looks aren't that important, Especially considering the cost of a new door
> ($225.00 + shipping). I could possibly glue a scab type patch over this
> area as well. I have a little of the material left over from the
> cutting/fitting.
>
> Any ideas appreciated.
>
> Tommy Walker in Alabama
> Do Archive
>
> --------
> Tommy Walker
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119622#119622
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door |
Back when I was in A&P school, some 30 years ago, I was taught a method
of plexiglass repair using Carbon Tetrachloride as a solvent. You can
soak the edges of the break in it to soften the edges and then press
together until dry or you can dissolve plexi shavings in it to make a
glue which is then applied to the break and held in place until dry. The
break was then micro-meshed until the break was clear again. There was
usually a little distortion left but you had to look hard to see it.
Trouble is, I don't know if you can even get Carbon Tet anymore. If I
were trying to find it, I would probably start at a drug store.
Kevin R.
601XL/ Corvair
Message 11
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door |
Methelene Chloride is the stuff, you'll probably find small quantities
at a plastics supplier that caters to the DIY trade. It's very nasty
stuff so be careful, it's VERY thin (thinner than water)as well as
having low surface tension so it creeps everywhere.
LOW&SLO John
I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to repair this? Is there a
type of glue that would melt the two edges and let me weld them
together?
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Hi Dave:
The best part of this list is having good advise from different perspectives
- and you are exactly right with your reply. Thank you for your insight.
Tracy Smith
N458XL (reserved)
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 6/19/2007 8:04:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
daveaustin2@primus.ca writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@primus.ca>
When a facet fuel pump is directly feeding the float bowls it is pushing
against closed float valves for a large part of the time.
No prob.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door |
Tommy,
I've used Acetone to make Plexiglass repairs as Wade stated. In addition to
putting Acetone on the edge of the break or splice we used a "doubler" where
necessary of Plexiglass "glued" in place with Acetone also.
Never used Carbon Tet for this purpose as Kevin mentioned.
Never used Methelene Chrloride either.
One final possibility. If the damage is at a corner and it isn't too large,
you could just install a piece of aluminum.
do not archive
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Walker" <twalker@cableone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door
>
> Listers,
>
> Unfortunately for me, I broke off the front lower corner of my pax door.
> How it happened is, I was working on the latch and had the door propped
> open. A little gremlin moved the prop and the door came crashing down on
> my forehead. That is the hardest part on my body....
>
> A small piece of the bubble door broke off. It is in the front lower
> corner the area is about 4 inches long.
>
> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to repair this? Is there a type
> of glue that would melt the two edges and let me weld them together?
> Looks aren't that important, Especially considering the cost of a new door
> ($225.00 + shipping). I could possibly glue a scab type patch over this
> area as well. I have a little of the material left over from the
> cutting/fitting.
>
> Any ideas appreciated.
>
> Tommy Walker in Alabama
> Do Archive
>
> --------
> Tommy Walker
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119622#119622
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
Dear Jab 3300 Flyers, show of hands. How many use the elec fuel pump on run
up ? How many use the elec fuel pump on take off ? And again in the pattern
for landing ? Hope to hear from you guys and best regards, Bill of Georgia
**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Repairs to Plexiglass |
Hi Kevin,
I took your comment as a challenge, and looked on the Internet for
carbon tetrachloride. As you pointed out, it was difficult to find.
Then I took a more general approach and looked for acrylic
solvent. That hit the jackpot. There are zillions of products
around for repair and assembly of acrylic plastic - which is the
generic name for the trade name Plexiglas. Anyone who wants to fool
around with this material can find all the stuff he wants by
searching the net under the generic name. Solvents and repair kits
are not expensive and available from numerous sources.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 07:48 AM 6/20/2007, you wrote:
>
>Back when I was in A&P school, some 30 years ago, I was taught a
>method of plexiglass repair using Carbon Tetrachloride as a solvent.
>You can soak the edges of the break in it to soften the edges and
>then press together until dry or you can dissolve plexi shavings in
>it to make a glue which is then applied to the break and held in
>place until dry. The break was then micro-meshed until the break was
>clear again. There was usually a little distortion left but you had
>to look hard to see it. Trouble is, I don't know if you can even get
>Carbon Tet anymore. If I were trying to find it, I would probably
>start at a drug store.
>
>
>Kevin R.
>
>
>601XL/ Corvair
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re:Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
I have learned a great deal from this thread and enjoyed it very much. I
would like to add an opinion if I may. I saw the word "check valve" mentioned and
my antennae went up. I consider check valves as necessary evils. In my
previous life before retirement, many of my fuel system malfunctions in turbine
A/C
were traced to bad check valves and they took as long as 2 days of trouble
shooting to clear. I am sold on red "LOW FUEL PRESS" warning lights. I would like
add one to my project if possible. That light saved the day once on downwind
to base when it gave me enough warning to go into cross feed and keep number 2
eng running. Had 1 hour fuel on board at the time. Bad check valve. Other
times, when it comes on at runup, you just taxi back and get it fixed and avoid
the drama.
Bob
Pace, FL XL/Lyc
**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Bracket problem |
do not archive
Leo,
Maybe my email is just hung up in the ether of never-never land.....
Your post lacked any text, and there was a symbol denoting an attachment (probably
a photo) but no photo made the trip.
Possibly it was a picture of a bracket for a stealth airplane?
Sorry I couldn't help!
Regards,
Zed
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
Hi Bill,
I fly a 601xl and turn my elec. fuel pump on for about 10 seconds before
starting the engine. Turn the pump off start the engine and it's not
used again during flight or landing. This is what Pete, at Jabiru USA,
said they do.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:43 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump
Dear Jab 3300 Flyers, show of hands. How many use the elec fuel pump
on run up ? How many use the elec fuel pump on take off ? And again in
the pattern for landing ? Hope to hear from you guys and best regards,
Bill of Georgia
**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Swinging the compass |
The default on my Garmin is magnetic. It should be, too, since then
GPS, compass, DG agree in no-wind condition. In fact, there is a nifty
formula to estimate crosswind, using the difference between GPS and compass.
For aircraft doing around 100 kts,
take the difference between compass and GPS (in deg), multiply by 2,
and you get approximately the crosswind in kts. For example, if
the GPS shows 125 deg, the compass 128 deg, then the crosswind is
approximately 2(128-125) = 6kts. Inverting the formula gives the crosswind
course correction needed for a given crosswind.
--Klaus
--
Klaus Truemper
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science
University of Texas at Dallas
Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and
Computer Science EC31
P.O. Box 830688
Richardson, TX 75083-0688
(972) 883-2712
klaus@utdallas.edu
www.utdallas.edu/~klaus
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door |
Tommy . . . I've gotten a plastic glue at various times from one of the
big box stores. If I recall it was a two tube item which was applied to
the joint. I've used it to repaid kids toys, etc. with great success.
Mybe someone can furnish the name. Robert Schoenberger 701
Tommy Walker wrote:
>
> Listers,
>
> Unfortunately for me, I broke off the front lower corner of my pax door. How
it happened is, I was working on the latch and had the door propped open. A
little gremlin moved the prop and the door came crashing down on my forehead.
That is the hardest part on my body....
>
> A small piece of the bubble door broke off. It is in the front lower corner
the area is about 4 inches long.
>
> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to repair this? Is there a type of glue
that would melt the two edges and let me weld them together? Looks aren't
that important, Especially considering the cost of a new door ($225.00 + shipping).
I could possibly glue a scab type patch over this area as well. I have
a little of the material left over from the cutting/fitting.
>
> Any ideas appreciated.
>
> Tommy Walker in Alabama
> Do Archive
>
> --------
> Tommy Walker
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119622#119622
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | RE: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
Very seldom* use electric fuel pump on take off although I put it in my
checklist to use on take off and landing. Same for Landing. (It causes
my fuel flow turbine to read too high - I placed the fuel flow turbine
too close to the elec pump.)
I do use the electric pump for 10 seconds before start. I do not use it
for run-up
*If the runway is short, I DO use the electric pump for take off and
landing.
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab3300; N493TG 252 fun hrs with the XL- and never had a carb or
start problem or concern.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Date: Wed Jun 20 - 9:44 AM
Dear Jab 3300 Flyers, show of hands. How many use the elec fuel pump on
run
up ? How many use the elec fuel pump on take off ? And again in the
pattern
for landing ? Hope to hear from you guys and best regards, Bill of
Georgia
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Hi all,
On the piper warrior the fuel selector is about level with the bottom of
the tanks. There is enough head pressure to drain the gascolator, but
not for high power settings.. On Trauma-hawks the selector is at base
of the panel probably above the fuel level. Both run the fuel through
the gascolator and then to the pump. My ideal design would be to have a
pump at each wing tank and one more after the fuel selector. It would
have dual electrical systems as I don't want to spend $1300 to put a
fuel pump on my 0-200. With a few switches and diodes it could be
reasonably seamless operation. A switch mounted to the throttle control
like for gear warning that turns on the emergency pump at 90% power for
takeoff. Two microswitchs mounted to turn on left or right pumps as
selected by the tank selector. The third pump, after the gascolator
would use an emergency pump switch. The traditional Facett
intermittent pumps are not constant displacement, so running with no
flow is not a problem. I do not know about the smaller new pumps. And
in an emergency? You did turn off the fuel selector before hitting the
trees at the end of the clothing optional beach didn't you? Also on
certified aircraft that are not gravity feed a "both" position on the
fuel valve is prohibited. An empty take will cause the pump to suck air.
Ken Lilja
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Hi Robin,
I am currently installing the fuel components in the cockpit, and it
appears I have the same small uphill run to the selector switch you mentioned.
I wonder if water will accumulate in the fuel line where the line
turns up to the switch. Perhaps any water will be forced out of that
point by the fuel flow and wind up in the gascolator. If it isn't
forced out, i.e. if the water says in the fuel line while the fuel
flows past, then it isn't a problem either.
With the official design, the gascolator is indeed at the lowest
point in the fuel system. It might be appropriate to consider small
intermediate low points in the fuel line the same way as we consider
water in the fuel tank below the fuel port in the tank. Of course
there is a drain valve in the tank, so maybe this is a bad comparison.
I guess I am not convinced one way or the other about moving the
selector switch. Of course, it would be easier to install it
according to the plans since that is the approach the kit includes parts for.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 05:31 AM 6/20/2007, you wrote:
>My 601XL plans have the fuel running uphill to the selector valve,
>with the valve located above the tops of all 4 tanks. I am in the
>process of extending the valve linkage to place the valve body on
>the cockpit floor to eliminate the uphill run.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
Hello Bill : The only time I use the electric pump is to prime the
system before start up . I don't think putting the pump into the system
before the gascolator is good as it would pressurise same and those can
leak quite easily . Naturally it is there as a back up in the event the
pump on the engine fails .
Best Regards
Rick Tedford
601XL , Jab 3300
C-FRTT , 250 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:43 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump
Dear Jab 3300 Flyers, show of hands. How many use the elec fuel pump
on run up ? How many use the elec fuel pump on take off ? And again in
the pattern for landing ? Hope to hear from you guys and best regards,
Bill of Georgia
**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
6/19/2007 1:12 PM
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Repairs to Plexiglass 701 Door |
I believe "polyzap" is what you are looking for.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
>I fly a 601xl and turn my elec. fuel pump on for about 10 seconds
before
>starting the engine. Turn the pump off start the engine and it's not
>used again during flight or landing. This is what Pete, at Jabiru USA,
>said they do.
Ditto - with the addition that here it's an HDS with wing tanks feeding
into a common gascolator in front of spar and then onto header tank via
Facet. This is the old Brent Battles' design from ancient days.
I use the Facet between the firewall gascolator (in series) and the
mechanical Jab pump only to prime engine.
do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
All I know is the Andair parts to do the extension cost more than the valve!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Hi Robin,
>
> I am currently installing the fuel components in the cockpit, and it
> appears I have the same small uphill run to the selector switch you
> mentioned.
>
> I wonder if water will accumulate in the fuel line where the line turns up
> to the switch. Perhaps any water will be forced out of that point by the
> fuel flow and wind up in the gascolator. If it isn't forced out, i.e. if
> the water says in the fuel line while the fuel flows past, then it isn't a
> problem either.
>
> With the official design, the gascolator is indeed at the lowest point in
> the fuel system. It might be appropriate to consider small intermediate
> low points in the fuel line the same way as we consider water in the fuel
> tank below the fuel port in the tank. Of course there is a drain valve in
> the tank, so maybe this is a bad comparison.
>
> I guess I am not convinced one way or the other about moving the selector
> switch. Of course, it would be easier to install it according to the
> plans since that is the approach the kit includes parts for.
>
> Paul
> XL fuselage
> do not archive
>
>
> At 05:31 AM 6/20/2007, you wrote:
>>My 601XL plans have the fuel running uphill to the selector valve, with
>>the valve located above the tops of all 4 tanks. I am in the process of
>>extending the valve linkage to place the valve body on the cockpit floor
>>to eliminate the uphill run.
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Repairs to Plexiglass |
The solvent usually used to repair plexiglas is methylene chloride.
This is the solvent used in many adhesives designed for acrylics.
Liquid m c is very useful in repairing cracks in plexiglas. Ater stop
drilling the crack, the solvent can be applied to the crack and it
will wick in to seal it up. I used an insulin syringe for this. Any
excess must be wiped up immediately.
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> I took your comment as a challenge, and looked on the Internet for
> carbon tetrachloride. As you pointed out, it was difficult to find.
>
> Then I took a more general approach and looked for acrylic
> solvent. That hit the jackpot. ...
>
> At 07:48 AM 6/20/2007, you wrote:
>>
>> Back when I was in A&P school, some 30 years ago, I was taught a
>> method of plexiglass repair using Carbon Tetrachloride as a
>> solvent ...
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | WW's Black prop hub |
I am looking for 2 of the old style black prop hubs with puck. If you were
thinking of switching to the gold one contact me off list. I have someone that
will make them in batches of 10 but thought I could help someone out by
buying theirs for what you paid for it. I understand that William is only giving
partial credit for the swap.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
I am really hoping someone can explain how the fuel would flow uphill to the valve
without relying on the system being primed first. This is something I've
been wondering about.
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119726#119726
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
At 03:56 PM 6/20/2007, you wrote:
>I am really hoping someone can explain how the fuel would flow
>uphill to the valve without relying on the system being primed
>first. This is something I've been wondering about.
>
>Doug
Perhaps the same way a syphon hose is used to get gas from an auto
gas tank - by having the fuel pump suck on the line . . .
I am not sure the head of fuel in the tank is lower than the fuel
switch. The discussion recently pointed out that there is an uphill
bend in the fuel line to get to the tank valve mounted near the
instrument panel. Considering the wing dihedral it is easy to
suspect the fuel will actually be above the valve.
It is the intermediate low point in the fuel line that interests
me. I wonder if water will accumulate at that point and also whether
it even matters.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
As I see it the 601XL plans location for the selector is at a level about
even with the filler cap on my inboard standard tanks and about the 8-gallon
level of the outboard tanks, so it's essetially uphill except with full
fuel. With the selector on the floor it's a a level with about the bottom of
the inboard tanks, and below the outboard tank bottoms.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned
> <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>
> I am not sure the head of fuel in the tank is lower than the fuel switch.
> The discussion recently pointed out that there is an uphill bend in the
> fuel line to get to the tank valve mounted near the instrument panel.
> Considering the wing dihedral it is easy to suspect the fuel will actually
> be above the valve.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
Regarding the comment: "This is what Pete, at Jabiru USA, said they do. "
Was Pete talking about a Jabiru 3300 in a Jabiru aircraft (high wing) or a low
wing? Big difference!
As I recall, SOP in most low wing aircraft is electric fuel pump on before engine
start thru takeoff and climb to a safe altitude - also when switching tanks
and when landing. There is a point in the pre takeoff checklist where the electric
pump is switched off to see if the engine keeps running.
If your engine driven fuel pump failed on takeoff and your electric pump was not
on, bad things could happen very quickly. Unless someone can give me a good
reason to do otherwise, my pump will be on.
Note: When choosing a fuel pump for the Jab remember that you don't want the fuel
pressure to get too high (around 3-3.5 psi max.) The pump that comes with
the Zenith Kit puts out more than that so I replaced it with a Facet 40104.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119739#119739
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Gig,
If check valves were installed I believe that you
would be able to run a "Both" tank setup. Wouldn't
the tank, and pump that still have fuel, pressurize
the opposite side up to the check valve? Think about
this analogy. Connect two water hoses from different
supply faucets. The faucets represent both a pump,
and a check valve. Connect the other ends of the
hoses to a "Y" adapter. When you turn both faucets
on, you will of course have running water. Turn one
faucet off, and the other faucet will maintain water
pressure and flow. The straw and glass analogy is
valid if there are no check valves, and I agree with
you that you certainly want a fuel shut off option. I
have seen a picture somewhere where someone installed
separate shut off valves for each tank. Although this
would take a few more seconds to deal with in an
emergency, it would work ok, and probably be a lot
less expensive than some of the valves that we are
currently using. I guess you could also just use one
simple shut off valve after the "Y" connection of the
lines.
Ron
Time: 01:06:02 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons
learned
From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
This has been discussed and I will say the same thing
I said then.
Get a glass of water and two drinking straws. Put both
straws in your
mouth. Put
one straw in the water and the other outside the
glass.
Now suck.
The outcome is exactly what will happen if one fuel
tank is empty.
Time: 01:06:02 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons
learned
From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
This has been discussed and I will say the same thing
I said then.
Get a glass of water and two drinking straws. Put both
straws in your
mouth. Put
one straw in the water and the other outside the
glass.
Now suck.
The outcome is exactly what will happen if one fuel
tank is empty.
[quote="crvsecretary"]Gentlemen:
Charles makes a number of very good points here...but
I have a
question or two:
- I'm looking to put a facet pump right at the base
of each tank so
the whole
run is pressurized fuel to reduce vapor lock. Charles
says to be sure
the correct
pump is turned on....is there any danger to the facet
pumps by running
one 'deadheaded' right into the fuel selector...that
way both pumps can
be wired
to ONE switch to eliminate pilot error.
- there was a prolific lister here some time ago
that was
exceptionally knowledgeable
on vapor lock issues. He suggested eliminating the
fuel selector
completely
and running a check valve at the outlet of each pump.
That way BOTH
pumps could supply fuel during takeoff and landing and
ONE pump can
run during
cruise. When one pump is running, the check valve(s)
will eliminate
crossfeeding
from one tank to another.
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
He said it was on a low wing.
Fine, do what you want. I just stated what I do.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 7:46 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump
>
> Regarding the comment: "This is what Pete, at Jabiru USA, said they do. "
>
> Was Pete talking about a Jabiru 3300 in a Jabiru aircraft (high wing) or a
> low wing? Big difference!
>
> As I recall, SOP in most low wing aircraft is electric fuel pump on before
> engine start thru takeoff and climb to a safe altitude - also when
> switching tanks and when landing. There is a point in the pre takeoff
> checklist where the electric pump is switched off to see if the engine
> keeps running.
>
> If your engine driven fuel pump failed on takeoff and your electric pump
> was not on, bad things could happen very quickly. Unless someone can give
> me a good reason to do otherwise, my pump will be on.
>
> Note: When choosing a fuel pump for the Jab remember that you don't want
> the fuel pressure to get too high (around 3-3.5 psi max.) The pump that
> comes with the Zenith Kit puts out more than that so I replaced it with a
> Facet 40104.
>
> Tim
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Working on wings
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119739#119739
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Ken, I was thinking about the "intermittent" facet fuel pump. As I said
earlier I dont have a mac. pump all I have is 2 facet inline and 2 separate
switches..Do you or anyone else have any in put or recommendations joe
N101HD 601XL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Lilja" <planes_by_ken@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned
>
> Hi all,
>
> On the piper warrior the fuel selector is about level with the bottom of
> the tanks. There is enough head pressure to drain the gascolator, but not
> for high power settings.. On Trauma-hawks the selector is at base of the
> panel probably above the fuel level. Both run the fuel through the
> gascolator and then to the pump. My ideal design would be to have a pump
> at each wing tank and one more after the fuel selector. It would have
> dual electrical systems as I don't want to spend $1300 to put a fuel pump
> on my 0-200. With a few switches and diodes it could be reasonably
> seamless operation. A switch mounted to the throttle control like for
> gear warning that turns on the emergency pump at 90% power for takeoff.
> Two microswitchs mounted to turn on left or right pumps as selected by the
> tank selector. The third pump, after the gascolator would use an
> emergency pump switch. The traditional Facett intermittent pumps are not
> constant displacement, so running with no flow is not a problem. I do not
> know about the smaller new pumps. And in an emergency? You did turn off
> the fuel selector before hitting the trees at the end of the clothing
> optional beach didn't you? Also on certified aircraft that are not
> gravity feed a "both" position on the fuel valve is prohibited. An empty
> take will cause the pump to suck air.
> Ken Lilja
>
>
>
Message 38
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|
Hi Gang, I'm back after 8 months of heart and lung problems. A stint
inserted last month has taken care of the heart. Exercise is improving
my breathing. While I was recuperating I ordered a Trichotometric Indicator
for my Zenith. I am having a real hard time installing the bracket. I
have attached the instructions for the bracket. Maybe one of you guys
can figure it out and give me some advise.
Leo Gates
601Z, CH601HDS TDO
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? |
Try this
sinfield@zeta.org.au
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119755#119755
Message 40
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| Subject: | 601 XL load testing |
For your viewing pleasure
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
2:18 PM
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
That's great and I'm confident that this plane can fly safely, but there has
been four XL's that the wings either folded or just exited the fuselage
during flight. So how do you explain that?
----- Original Message -----
From: "ZodieRocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
>
> For your viewing pleasure
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com
> www.can-zacaviation.com
>
>
> 2:18 PM
>
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | 601 XL load testing |
...here we go, again...
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail done, wings done, working on c-section
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Shuck
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
That's great and I'm confident that this plane can fly safely, but there has
been four XL's that the wings either folded or just exited the fuselage
during flight. So how do you explain that?
----- Original Message -----
From: "ZodieRocket" <zodierocket@hsfx.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
>
> For your viewing pleasure
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com
> www.can-zacaviation.com
>
>
> 2:18 PM
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Paul and Doug
1st, Doug's question about fuel flowing from a low spot in the system to a
pump. Some pumps will move enough air to prime themselves, at least to some
well defined elevation of the pump above the liquid level. Others will not.
I think it is usually a tradeoff between pumping efficiency and
convenience. A self-priming pump will be less efficient, i.e., require more
power to deliver the fluid at design flow rate. A pump that does not self
prime can be designed for greater fluid dynamic efficiency, so requires
less power at design flow rate, but is less convenient to start up. I
can't answer whether or not the mechanical fuel pump built into the Jabiru
is self priming.
2nd, Paul's question about the accumulation of water in a low spot in the
line. As long as the fuel line diameter is sufficiently small so that the
fuel is moving with a reasonable velocity, then this should not be a
problem. The fuel line is 0.25" i.d., if we assume a cruise fuel
consumption of 5 gph, I calculate a mean flow velocity is 0.55 ft/s. I
would imagine that a half ft/s would be enough to entrain any water from a
low spot up to the valve and then on into the gascolator. A bit of water in
the fuel stream might make the engine hiccup, but it shouldn't be a major
problem.
The bigger problem occurs if you park your airplane in a cold place in the
winter. If enough water accumulates at a low point to block the fuel line,
it would freeze at temperatures below 32 F, and you could not start the
engine. And the only solution is to warm up the airplane so that the ice
dam melts. That's an inconvenience, but not a really big deal, since you're
still on the ground.
Terry
At 04:30 PM 6/20/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>At 03:56 PM 6/20/2007, you wrote:
>>I am really hoping someone can explain how the fuel would flow uphill to
>>the valve without relying on the system being primed first. This is
>>something I've been wondering about.
>>
>>Doug
>
>
>Perhaps the same way a syphon hose is used to get gas from an auto gas
>tank - by having the fuel pump suck on the line . . .
>
>I am not sure the head of fuel in the tank is lower than the fuel
>switch. The discussion recently pointed out that there is an uphill bend
>in the fuel line to get to the tank valve mounted near the instrument
>panel. Considering the wing dihedral it is easy to suspect the fuel will
>actually be above the valve.
>
>It is the intermediate low point in the fuel line that interests me. I
>wonder if water will accumulate at that point and also whether it even matters.
>
>Paul
>XL fuselage
>do not archive
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
Just starting a 601 kit
Message 44
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| Subject: | 601 XL load testing |
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
But those are green weight bags and I'm building a red weight bag 601XL.
Also did you allow for the Coriolis (not to mention the relativistic)
effects? Something bad happened somewhere in an airplane - how do I know my
plane won't spontaneously combust in the air? I have complete faith in Chris
Heintz's designs and testing but I want an absolute explanation for the
unknowable. And I think the NTSB should build a time machine so they can
tell me what happened in the past where there are no surviving witnesses. I
mean, why am I paying all those taxes (even though 99.9% go someplace other
than the FAA and the NTSB)? Until I achieve complete certainty I'm going to
speculate endlessly instead of working on my death-trap, er, XL. This will
generate answers to my unanswerable questions and make me safer. And I'm
going to think, think a lot, about switching to an XYZ because they are
different, somehow.
-- Craig
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