Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:32 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (C Smith)
2. 03:29 AM - Re: Bracket (Robin Bellach)
3. 05:33 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (William Dominguez)
4. 05:35 AM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (steveadams)
5. 05:42 AM - Use of electric fuel pump (charles.long@gm.com)
6. 05:47 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Southern Reflections)
7. 06:09 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (John Bolding)
8. 06:41 AM - Prop/Exhaust comments requested. (LRM)
9. 06:43 AM - Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? (Maarten Versteeg)
10. 06:58 AM - Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. (Gig Giacona)
11. 07:08 AM - know-it-alls (Ken Lilja)
12. 07:08 AM - Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. (Jerry Hey)
13. 07:08 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Ken Lilja)
14. 07:34 AM - Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (Tim Juhl)
15. 07:38 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Ken Lilja)
16. 08:24 AM - Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. (LarryMcFarland)
17. 09:14 AM - Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned (lgingell)
18. 10:11 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Craig Payne)
19. 10:17 AM - Scott Laughlin et al: 601XL w/BRS W&B numbers (Craig Payne)
20. 10:45 AM - Aircraft financing (Ben Ramler)
21. 10:45 AM - Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. (Craig Payne)
22. 11:17 AM - Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. (Terry Phillips)
23. 11:18 AM - Re: 601 XL load testing (Paul Mulwitz)
24. 12:34 PM - Re: Harley/701/prop problem (Zed Smith)
25. 12:51 PM - Re: Aircraft financing (Gig Giacona)
26. 01:03 PM - CH601 hung up in a tree (MaxNr@aol.com)
27. 01:10 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
28. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft financing (Trainnut01@aol.com)
29. 01:25 PM - One last thing on vaporlock (MaxNr@aol.com)
30. 01:35 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree ()
31. 01:36 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree ()
32. 01:43 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree ()
33. 01:46 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree (Mike)
34. 01:47 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree (PatrickW)
35. 02:05 PM - Re: One last thing on vaporlock (MaxNr@aol.com)
36. 02:05 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 (Dave P)
37. 02:11 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree (Jim Hoak)
38. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 (Craig Payne)
39. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump (Randy)
40. 02:38 PM - Re: CH601 hung up in a tree (Craig Payne)
41. 04:12 PM - Re: 601 XL load testing (David Downey)
42. 04:28 PM - Re: 601 XL load testing (David Downey)
43. 04:47 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 (hillsgun)
44. 05:01 PM - Re: 601 XL load testing (David Downey)
45. 06:04 PM - Re: Bracket (Ron Lendon)
46. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft financing (Juan Vega)
47. 06:29 PM - Re: Bracket (Jaybannist@cs.com)
48. 07:09 PM - Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. (LRM)
49. 07:19 PM - Re: xxx Re: 601 XL load testing (John Bolding)
50. 10:32 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 (Darrell Haas)
51. 10:36 PM - 601 xl (Darrell Haas)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 601 XL load testing |
ROTFLMAO!
8D
Do not archive
CS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:00 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
But those are green weight bags and I'm building a red weight bag 601XL.
Also did you allow for the Coriolis (not to mention the relativistic)
effects? Something bad happened somewhere in an airplane - how do I know my
plane won't spontaneously combust in the air? I have complete faith in Chris
Heintz's designs and testing but I want an absolute explanation for the
unknowable. And I think the NTSB should build a time machine so they can
tell me what happened in the past where there are no surviving witnesses. I
mean, why am I paying all those taxes (even though 99.9% go someplace other
than the FAA and the NTSB)? Until I achieve complete certainty I'm going to
speculate endlessly instead of working on my death-trap, er, XL. This will
generate answers to my unanswerable questions and make me safer. And I'm
going to think, think a lot, about switching to an XYZ because they are
different, somehow.
-- Craig
do not archive
Message 2
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DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Gates" <leogates@allvantage.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Bracket
While I was recuperating I ordered a Trichotometric Indicator
> for my Zenith. I am having a real hard time installing the bracket. I
> have attached the instructions for the bracket. Maybe one of you guys
> can figure it out and give me some advise.
>
> Leo Gates
> 601Z, CH601HDS TDO
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
Three, not four.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
That's great and I'm confident that this plane can fly safely, but there has
been four XL's that the wings either folded or just exited the fuselage
during flight. So how do you explain that?
----- Original Message -----
From: "ZodieRocket"
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
>
> For your viewing pleasure
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
> president@can-zacaviation.com
> www.can-zacaviation.com
>
>
> 2:18 PM
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
Regarding water collecting in a low point in the line. The plans for the CH640
specifically say to ensure that the line from the tank outlet to the selector
switch runs slightly "uphill" the whole distance without any low point for water/junk
to collect. That way it will either run back into the tank or down to
the gascolator where it can be drained off. Once the line is filled with fuel
it makes little difference in these installations whether the selector is above
or below the tank outlet. The things that determine the overall pressure (or
suction) in the line is the fuel line diameter, how many and how tight the bends
in the line are, and the difference in hight between the tank outlet and the
fuel pump. Whether it is 6 inches higher or lower in the middle (fuel selector)
will have no significant effect. I've never had any hint of vapor lock, even
after having had the plane sit in the sun on the ramp for hours in 95+ temps.
Steve Adams
CH640
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119808#119808
Message 5
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| Subject: | Use of electric fuel pump |
I use the electric pump to charge the fuel system for startup, then
shut it off until after runup. That way I can confirm that the mechanical
pump is working. During my pre takeoff checklist, I turn on the electric
pump and monitor the fuel pressure on the EIS to make sure it bumps up a
1/2 psi or so. This confirms that the electric pump is working as well.
Once to cruise altitude, the electric pump comes off and is turned back on
for landing or switching tanks. I hope I didn't alarm folks with the vapor
lock issue. I just afirms the need for a backup fuel pump and the
importance of a pre takeoff and pre landing checklist that gets used
everytime.
Chuck
Time: 09:44:20 AM PST US
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump
Dear Jab 3300 Flyers, show of hands. How many use the elec fuel pump on
run
up ? How many use the elec fuel pump on take off ? And again in the pattern
for landing ? Hope to hear from you guys and best regards, Bill of Georgia
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
Craig, I haven't been following the " load testing" but, when I saw your
post the light came on.. A friend of mine just returned from CA. He was
out there taking the 120 hr. repairman's course so that he can be an
inspector. He told me last night at the EAA meeting that he found out what
happened to the factory-built 601 and that was that the skin on the top of
the wing pulled all of the rivets out. They had some how been installed
improperly. Have you heard anything on this?
Joe N101HD/601XL
----- Original Message -----
From: "C Smith" <pilot4profit@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:32 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
>
> ROTFLMAO!
> 8D
>
> Do not archive
> CS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:00 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
>
> --> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
>
> But those are green weight bags and I'm building a red weight bag 601XL.
> Also did you allow for the Coriolis (not to mention the relativistic)
> effects? Something bad happened somewhere in an airplane - how do I know
> my
> plane won't spontaneously combust in the air? I have complete faith in
> Chris
> Heintz's designs and testing but I want an absolute explanation for the
> unknowable. And I think the NTSB should build a time machine so they can
> tell me what happened in the past where there are no surviving witnesses.
> I
> mean, why am I paying all those taxes (even though 99.9% go someplace
> other
> than the FAA and the NTSB)? Until I achieve complete certainty I'm going
> to
> speculate endlessly instead of working on my death-trap, er, XL. This will
> generate answers to my unanswerable questions and make me safer. And I'm
> going to think, think a lot, about switching to an XYZ because they are
> different, somehow.
>
> -- Craig
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
Nobody get their shorts in a knot as I just have a couple of questions,
not trying to cast aspersions or stir the pot, just trying to learn
something.
I notice that the sandbags are placed evenly along the wing, is that
because it's a rectangular wing? Generally when you see pics of load
testing the bag stack is thin at the tip and thick at the root. Maybe
every test I've seen before was of a tapered wing?? Donno, somebody
help me here.
I guess in the recent pictures they were testing for negative loads as
the bags were on top of the wing , in the older test the fuselage was
inverted and bags were on the bottom, indicating a load test for
positive G's.
I guess maybe Chris felt the prior positive G test was good to go and
the negative test was needed more than redoing something already done,
OR maybe he isn't finished yet. Interesting.
Sometimes it's a small thing . Van had a few problems (severe
understatement) with spars on very early RV3's. The spar caps were
1/8"x 1 1/4" bar stock they were 8 thick at the root, some of us
etched the caps and built a fixture to marry them all together with 3M
Hysol Structural Adhesive so we could drill them as a single piece
rather than 8 pieces of varying lengths. Turns out 10 yrs later when
Van did in depth load testing that the adhesive improved the crippling
effect of the thin strips, making the cap assy act like a solid bar
rather than a bunch of strips. We were good for 2-3 more G's if I
remember right. I had already tested to Limit Load (6 g @ gross) in
the air but was reassuring nevertheless. The airplane now has over 2000
hrs but at inspection 10 yrs ago I de-rated it to utility category from
aerobatic as I REALLY have no confidence in a 35 yr old glue joint done
on aluminum in an uncontrolled environment.
John Bolding
----- Original Message -----
From: ZodieRocket
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:01 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
For your viewing pleasure
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Prop/Exhaust comments requested. |
Setting the scenario.
I have a Harley 95B on my 701.
I am experiencing what I consider excessive vibration, so much so that I
don't want to fly it.
I have tried three props, 3 blade warp drive, I had a blade that was
tracking out by a 1/4". Warp Drive said it was within their acceptable
tolerances. I disagreed, sold it on e-bay.
I tried an IVO 3 blade prop. It was a lot worse. Sent it back got a
full refund. They said they would give me a full refund if there was a
problem with the prop, so there must have been a problem.
I now have a two blade Culver wood prop. It tracks out by 1/8". It's
70X50. The vibration is still unacceptable.
I am thinking of ordering a short 4 blade prop. The best it ever got was
with the warp drive 3 blade even with the tracking problem. My thinking
is that a balanced shorter 4 blade prop should offer the best possible
solution? Comments on the prop situation, please.
Here's my exhaust situation. On the Harley I am using individual pipes
with no cross over and a supertrapp muffler on each with maximum
backpressure. Even with out any prop I don't think the engine runs as
smooth as it should. Remember this is a counter balanced engine. It is
supposed to run real smooth. I haven't tried it yet with out the
mufflers, because I don't want a loud engine. Next week I am going to
pull them off and try it. Comments on the muffler situation too please?
I am also very aware of the large power pulses a Harley has and the
inherent problems that pulses can cause, however I am not the first to
put a Harley on an aircraft and Brett reports to me that the others
don't have my problems.
I am going to be out of town for a few days, so I won't be able to
comment until Sunday or Monday. But thanks for you help. I am at my
end. If fact if this "one more time" doesn't work, someone is going to
get a good deal.
Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong? |
Hello Ken,
A question; I am also plans building but currently still working
on the wings so the firewall is still far away, still eventually
I hope to reach that point, could you also make the drawing
available (for instance as PDF) on the file share site?
Thanks,
Maarten Versteeg
601xl, plans building wings
Chris wrote:
> Time: 03:20:54 AM PST US
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Is this XL firewall drawing wrong?
> From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
>
>
> Thanks Ken for the drawing offer
> They just installed Autodesk Inventor (2008) at work so send in what ever version
> you have it would be very much appreciated, and I should be able to read it.
>
> regards
> Chris
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119592#119592
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. |
My first thought if you have tried 3 very different props and still have the vibration
then odds are the problem isn't in the propbut somewhere else in the system.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119825#119825
Message 11
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Another issue: I have seen a backlash at times when someone posts info
or suggestions and then lists qualifications to let people know from
what direction the info comes from. This also gives the reader a way to
weigh the value of the info. We may have aeronautical, structural or
electrical engineers on the list. We may also have electronic
technician or electrician on the list. I know we have A&P's on the list.
We all have things that we can contribute. My students teach me
something new every day. Sometimes they show me something about about
aviation that I did not know. Please let us continue to add our comments
without everyone thinking we are know-it-alls.
Enough said.
Ken Lilja
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. |
Larry, not a Harley, but single rotor mazda's are under development
and have a similar situation with large power pulses. Here is a
video showing what is happening to the prop in response to the
pulses. Absolutely scary. It is much worse on a flexible prop like
Warp Drive or Ivo. The problem seems to be worse at lower rpm. Jerry
http://www.radrotary.com/WL_original_damper.wmv
On Jun 21, 2007, at 9:37 AM, LRM wrote:
> Setting the scenario.
>
> I have a Harley 95B on my 701.
>
> I am experiencing what I consider excessive vibration, so much so
> that I don't want to fly it.
>
> I have tried three props, 3 blade warp drive, I had a blade that
> was tracking out by a 1/4". Warp Drive said it was within their
> acceptable tolerances. I disagreed, sold it on e-bay.
>
> I tried an IVO 3 blade prop. It was a lot worse. Sent it back got
> a full refund. They said they would give me a full refund if there
> was a problem with the prop, so there must have been a problem.
> I now have a two blade Culver wood prop. It tracks out by 1/8".
> It's 70X50. The vibration is still unacceptable.
>
> I am thinking of ordering a short 4 blade prop. The best it ever
> got was with the warp drive 3 blade even with the tracking
> problem. My thinking is that a balanced shorter 4 blade prop
> should offer the best possible solution? Comments on the prop
> situation, please.
>
> Here's my exhaust situation. On the Harley I am using individual
> pipes with no cross over and a supertrapp muffler on each with
> maximum backpressure. Even with out any prop I don't think the
> engine runs as smooth as it should. Remember this is a counter
> balanced engine. It is supposed to run real smooth. I haven't
> tried it yet with out the mufflers, because I don't want a loud
> engine. Next week I am going to pull them off and try it.
> Comments on the muffler situation too please?
>
> I am also very aware of the large power pulses a Harley has and the
> inherent problems that pulses can cause, however I am not the first
> to put a Harley on an aircraft and Brett reports to me that the
> others don't have my problems.
>
> I am going to be out of town for a few days, so I won't be able to
> comment until Sunday or Monday. But thanks for you help. I am at
> my end. If fact if this "one more time" doesn't work, someone is
> going to get a good deal.
>
> Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ===========================================================
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
> ...here we go, again...
OK....
I have been waiting for someone else to open this can of worms again.
If the collective group wants to know everything the NTSB knows, we can
order copies of some to all of the information.
> Preliminary Reports $6.00 each *
> Probable Cause Reports $6.00 each *
> Factual Investigation Report .15 per page
> Photographs B&W Laser Prints $1.00 each
> Photographs Color 8X10 Glossy $3.50 each
> Video Recordings VHS $20.00 each
> Audio Records $10.00 each
> Certifying Report (Blue Ribbon) $10.00 each
> Expedite Service $20.00 per request
> Microfiche Duplicates (if available) $1.00 each
> Fax - Preliminary or Probable Cause $10.00 each
> Fax - Invoice $2.00 each
> Fax - Other Reports $2.00 each
> Search Charge $15.00 each
> http://www.ntsb.gov/info/gils/gilsdkt.htm
Ken Lilja
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
Randy,
I wasn't being critical. I've met Pete a few times and took the "Jab install in
a Zodiac" class at his place in Shelbyville. He never commented about when
to use the fuel pump and in retrospect I should have asked. He did warn about
using fuel pumps that put out too much pressure. Your comment is very helpful
in that I am going to find out from Pete what his logic is behind the procedure
he recommends.
The low wing Pete sells is the Lightning.... I can't tell you how it's fuel system
design compares to the XL.
In my 32 years of flying I've had 3 in-flight engine emergencies that required
immediate landings. Fortunately each one was at altitude and an airport was nearby.
My biggest fear would be power loss shortly after liftoff so you can
understand my concern. All the other aircraft I've owned have been high wing
and didn't even have a electric fuel pump so the XL will be something new for
me. My experience with low wing aircraft is restricted to aircraft I have trained
in and flown while giving flight instruction, mostly Piper and Beech products.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119834#119834
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
John,
In my opinion, the glue is a very good idea in certain places. I am
thinking of adding 3M Scotch Weld structural epoxy (Aircraft Spruce)at
locations like the elevator horn strap. This will fill in any voids and
help with slightly oversized rivet holes. No relative motion, no
wallowed out rivet holes.We used this on the bonanza series when the
wing attach carry-thru webs were cracking at the hi-shear fasteners
retaining the bathtubs. This was per AD. Needless to say, the cleaner
the better with bonding. Grumman singles are all glued together.
Lift distribution: The idea is to get the entire wing to share the work
so to my eye the weight distribution looks ok. What I would like to
make sure of is that the weight is evenly distributed either side of the
center of lift. Weighting the wing for negative G: Most wings are
twice as strong in positive G, so this may be worst case condition.
That said I would like to see positive G loading also.
I would also like to see the wing loaded in torque at the wing tip +- G
to see how much twist there is(especially a wing with the baggage
lockers). A wing that twists too much would not be good, BUT ALL WINGS
TWIST. One possible fix is actually easy. Ad some diagonal ribs in
between the regular ribs (think Ercoup).
JUST MY OPINIONS
Ken Lilja
John Bolding wrote:
> Nobody get their shorts in a knot as I just have a couple of
> questions, not trying to cast aspersions or stir the pot, just trying to
> learn something.
> I notice that the sandbags are placed evenly along the wing, is that
> because it's a rectangular wing? Generally when you see pics of load
> testing the bag stack is thin at the tip and thick at the root. Maybe
> every test I've seen before was of a tapered wing?? Donno, somebody
> help me here.
> I guess in the recent pictures they were testing for negative loads as
> the bags were on top of the wing , in the older test the fuselage was
> inverted and bags were on the bottom, indicating a load test for
> positive G's.
> I _guess_ maybe Chris felt the prior positive G test was good to go and
> the negative test was needed more than redoing something already done,
> OR maybe he isn't finished yet. Interesting.
>
> Sometimes it's a small thing . Van had a few problems (severe
> understatement) with spars on very early RV3's. The spar caps were
> 1/8"x 1 1/4" bar stock they were 8 thick at the root, some of us
> etched the caps and built a fixture to marry them all together with 3M
> Hysol Structural Adhesive so we could drill them as a single piece
> rather than 8 pieces of varying lengths. Turns out 10 yrs later when
> Van did in depth load testing that the adhesive improved the crippling
> effect of the thin strips, making the cap assy act like a solid bar
> rather than a bunch of strips. We were good for 2-3 more G's if I
> remember right. I had already tested to Limit Load (6 g @ gross) in
> the air but was reassuring nevertheless. The airplane now has over 2000
> hrs but at inspection 10 yrs ago I de-rated it to utility category from
> aerobatic as I REALLY have no confidence in a 35 yr old glue joint done
> on aluminum in an uncontrolled environment.
>
> John Bolding
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. |
Hi Larry,
No good answers here,,,
The prop issue is flexibility and weight.
If the prop flexes, it probably magnifies the vibration. Most props are
light, but I'd bet a metal prop would flex less and its weight might
dampen things a little.
The engine mount for a 701 radially, isn't a match for the longitudinal
mass of a Harley motorcycle frame. You going to feel that pulse more on
the 701,,,,,, but possibly for a shorter period of time.
On noise, the Harley should always be toned down with a good muffler,
preferably pointed rearward. They've got a lot of bad press without
mufflers and that "classic sound" has been overplayed in straight pipes.
If you fall out of the sky after irritating the lawn-bound griller's
with a noisy plane, will anybody down there search for you?
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
LRM wrote:
> Setting the scenario.
>
> I have a Harley 95B on my 701.
>
> I am experiencing what I consider excessive vibration, so much so that
> I don't want to fly it.
> _/Comments on the prop situation, please./_
>
> /_Comments on the muffler situation too please?_/
>
> I am also very aware of the large power pulses a Harley has and the
> inherent problems that pulses can cause,
>
> I am going to be out of town for a few days, so I won't be able to
> comment until Sunday or Monday. But thanks for you help. I am at my
> end. If fact if this "one more time" doesn't work, someone is going
> to get a good deal.
>
>
>
> Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
>
> *=================================
>
> *
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Vaporlock issues - lessons learned |
I have a XL/Standard 12Gal wing tanks/Andair selector.
I probably already said this in the searchable archives (as did others), but here
goes...
Fuel goes from the wings to the Andair selector, which is mounted just above the
spar. So fuel is going uphill unless the tanks are full. Fuel then goes downhill
to the ZAC supplied ACS gascolator, onto the fuel flow sensor, and a Facet
fuel pump at the base (on) the firewall mounted per instructions at 45 degrees
up. Then up through the firewall to the engine mounted mechanical Jabiru
pump.
I use 100LL all the time. I often wondered about the fuel suck (after reading
many posts from 'Frank Hinde' - search the archives..). Anyway, I got vapour lock
one time. The airplane was sitting parked afternoon/overnight on a hot
day in Oregon. Up to 100F. I couldn't prime the fuel system with the firewall
fuel pump as I had vapour lock. Yikes. it took *blowing* in the fuel vents to
release this. Try that flying!
Anyway, I don't believe this same condition would likely happen while flying, but
I though I should add something soon.
A few flights later, my firewall Facet pump failed. (Now try starting the engine!)
So, I did ADD another Facet pump at the left wing root, and seperate switch on
the panel for emergency. This would have solved both issues above (vapour lock
and failed pump - which failed open).
When I fly, I prime the system with my firewall elec pump (occasionaly with the
other wing root Facet instead - just to test it), for 5 seconds. Turn off. Then
start the engine.
I don't use it for takeoff or landing. I read of at least one person (Jabriu list)
that had a problem where their elec pump (a Facet) caused the engine to quit
after takeoff because it overwhelmed the mechanical pump.
I'd rather turn it on in an emergency (and I'd rather not have one of those!).
Also, turning both Facets on in my system will overpower the mechnical pump and
fuel sips by and drips out.
..lance
Zodiac XL/Jabiru 3300, 185hours
--------
Zodiac XL/Jab 3300
http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119851#119851
Message 18
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| Subject: | 601 XL load testing |
No, I haven't heard anything. We have heard rumors about some of the
accidents but they don't end up in the final official analysis. I don't know
if this says more about the rumors or the government investigative process.
Me, I'm just going to have to go with what I know: a fairly conventions
design with an overall good record. I think my piloting skills or poor
judgment are more likely to kill me than anything else. Happily that is
something I can do something about.
One thing I continue to think about is that in all the fatal 601XL accidents
(regardless of the cause) it seems likely that a ballistic recovery chute
could have saved some lives. This includes Jim Pellien's which no one claims
was tied to a structural failure. But I am waiting on my preliminary W&B
data to see if a chute would make my plane safer or not. I'd like to see
Scott Laughlin's numbers for his BRS-equipped XL even thought the Corvair is
heavier than a Jabiru 3300.
-- Craig
Message 19
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| Subject: | Scott Laughlin et al: 601XL w/BRS W&B numbers |
Can Scott or anyone else with a BRS in their XL publish their W&B numbers?
Adding 20-25 lbs that far back from the CG looks tough from the spreadsheets
I've played with.
-- Craig
Message 20
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| Subject: | Aircraft financing |
Here's question for all Finance experts out there,
How come most aircraft financing are more incline to offer financing like zenith
vs something like Kolb, or ferguson aircraft? Do they base it off of reputatuion?
thanks,
Ben
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,
photos & more.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
Message 21
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| Subject: | Prop/Exhaust comments requested. |
Am I reading your post correctly? Did 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 3 props have
tracking issues? Is the flange or redrive the common factor? If you bolt a
straight edge to the prop flange how does the tracking look? This seems too
obvious so I assume you checked this - just wondering.
"someone is going to get a good deal"
Are you going to sell the whole plane or switch to another engine?
-- Craig
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. |
Larry
I appending a post by a LongEZE pilot that I read a few weeks ago on
another list. He didn't have much of a problem to start with, but by doing
a dynamic balancing, he was able to really smooth things out:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Group.
At the end of my yearly maintenance and condition inspection last
week I got my eze engine prop and crank dynamically balanced.
The results where much more then I had hoped for. The guy flew up to
Petaluma from Watson Vile, CA in a mustang II with his equipments and
tools to do this
at my hangar. Jeremy the guy who does this told me that he uses two
sensing pick ups one near the front of the engine and one near the
back of the engine.
He says he is one of the only ones in the country that uses two pick
ups. He set it all up with a photo sensor also that counts the
rotations of the prop for RPM data.
Once he was all ready I warmed up my engine and he had me run up to
2000 RPM and then 2100 RPM and hold it there for a few seconds until
he got his readings.
Then we stopped checked out the data and put one small bolt in one of
those holes that run all around the outside edge of the flywheel on
the 0320. I think they are every
60 degrees around the wheel. He told me the bad news was my
vibration was not too bad maybe in the 30% range of maximum allowable
so I might not realize much difference.
Next he had me run it up again then stop and check out the data.
This time the computer tells him how much weight and where to place
it. He moves the weight and changes size
with his gram scale to get the weight the instrument was calling
for. We did the test once more and we eliminated about two thirds of
the vibration from what I started out with. I could tell
it was running smoother. The amazing stuff happened next though. We
had lunch and he showed me a chart on a piece of paper that looks
like the little blips on a heart monitor or something like that.
He shows me one pulse and says thats your prop. Then he shows my a
big spike that happens three times for every revolution of the crank
shaft. He tells me we have to look at your engine and this is at
the prop end of your engine and we have to look for anything that may
be rotating three times per revolution. He has graph paper from the
sensor on the back and a graph paper for the one on the front too.
So we checked out and the engine after lunch and the only thing
there on the prop end to look at was the alternator.
We counted the times the pulley on the alternator turned as we
rotated the prop around exactly one time. Bingo. Three times. We
were pretty excited.
I had that belt off in a few seconds and spun the alternator pulley
around by hand and we could hear it grinding away. Wow it was like
the airplane doctor. Then he says I didn't like this other low
frequency blip
that is up on the other end of your engine. He says this looks like
a typical engine mount problem. So three of us checked out all four
engine mount rubbers and we clearly could see that the upper front one
had sagged enough to probably be going metal to metal occasionally.
So I went to the auto parts store and it took the guy a while but he
came out with a match for my alternator. Then a couple A&P's told me
when
a motor mount sags you can turn it around 180 degrees and it will
work for a while longer. I did that and it looks like the other
three mounts now. No sag at all.
So on my test flight I was amazed at how much smoother it feels in
the cockpit. Its a much much smoother now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy is apparently, Jeremy MacDonald from Norcal Aero Services. I cannot
speak from personal experience, but a dynamic analysis of your
engine-propeller system might identify the problem. Good luck.
Terry
At 08:37 AM 6/21/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>Setting the scenario.
>
>I have a Harley 95B on my 701.
>
>I am experiencing what I consider excessive vibration, so much so that I
>don't want to fly it.
>
>I have tried three props, 3 blade warp drive, I had a blade that was
>tracking out by a 1/4". Warp Drive said it was within their acceptable
>tolerances. I disagreed, sold it on e-bay.
>
>I tried an IVO 3 blade prop. It was a lot worse. Sent it back got a full
>refund. They said they would give me a full refund if there was a problem
>with the prop, so there must have been a problem.
>I now have a two blade Culver wood prop. It tracks out by 1/8". It's
>70X50. The vibration is still unacceptable.
>
>I am thinking of ordering a short 4 blade prop. The best it ever got was
>with the warp drive 3 blade even with the tracking problem. My thinking
>is that a balanced shorter 4 blade prop should offer the best possible
>solution? Comments on the prop situation, please.
>
>Here's my exhaust situation. On the Harley I am using individual pipes
>with no cross over and a supertrapp muffler on each with maximum
>backpressure. Even with out any prop I don't think the engine runs as
>smooth as it should. Remember this is a counter balanced engine. It is
>supposed to run real smooth. I haven't tried it yet with out the
>mufflers, because I don't want a loud engine. Next week I am going to
>pull them off and try it. Comments on the muffler situation too please?
>
>I am also very aware of the large power pulses a Harley has and the
>inherent problems that pulses can cause, however I am not the first to put
>a Harley on an aircraft and Brett reports to me that the others don't have
>my problems.
>
>I am going to be out of town for a few days, so I won't be able to comment
>until Sunday or Monday. But thanks for you help. I am at my end. If
>fact if this "one more time" doesn't work, someone is going to get a good
>deal.
>
>
>Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L
Terry Phillips
ttp44@rkymtn.net
Message 23
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| Subject: | 601 XL load testing |
At 10:09 AM 6/21/2007, you wrote:
>One thing I continue to think about is that in all the fatal 601XL accidents
>(regardless of the cause) it seems likely that a ballistic recovery chute
>could have saved some lives. This includes Jim Pellien's which no one claims
>was tied to a structural failure. But I am waiting on my preliminary W&B
>data to see if a chute would make my plane safer or not. I'd like to see
>Scott Laughlin's numbers for his BRS-equipped XL even thought the Corvair is
>heavier than a Jabiru 3300.
I don't know whether a ballistic chute would have helped with any of
the recent accidents or not. It seems that all of them happened at
low altitude. Between the human delay and the deployment delay I
doubt a chute would have deployed in time to do any good on any of
these accidents.
I have been thinking and looking at my plane as I reassemble the
fuselage for riveting and noticed there might be a little weakness in
the wing attach structure. There are cute little gussets supporting
the gear uprights to the longerons, but no similar gussets on the
wing spar uprights. Indeed, the only thing holding the main spar
carry-through at the proper angle is a couple of pieces of side skin
and the seat front bottom which is the same weight as the side
skin. I considered adding gussets between the wing spar uprights and
the main longerons and discussed (email) that with Nick at ZAC. He
approved the addition as not being a problem, but he did not comment
on whether or not it was helpful.
Paul
XL fuselage
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Harley/701/prop problem |
do not archive
Based only on personal experience of owning a 74 kicker and an 86 Low Rider, (with
appropriate mishaps scattered amongst the years....including dislocated shoulders
& broken bones) and with a small bit of tongue-in-cheek, I'd venture that
one of the following is the problem:
1. The plug wires are reversed,
2. The kick-starter isn't fully retracting,
3. There isn't a fat ugly gal with multiple intimate tattoos riding with you,
4. You've let your HOG membership expire,
5. Willie G. hasn't approved the installation,
6. E-85 fuel is fouling the plugs,
7. Or, seriously, the electronic spark advance is at fault.
Is there any way to obtain a test club to replace the prop?
Surely the club won't wander around; and it would provide a good load for the engine.
I'd sure like to know what is finally determined to be the problem
Regards,
Zed
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft financing |
I'm not slaming Kolb or Ferguson aircraft but they LOOK like ultralights. The finace
people look at the 601 and see something that at looks like a Tomahawk or
a Skipper. In other words a real airplane.
ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.c wrote:
> Here's question for all Finance experts out there,
>
>
> How come most aircraft financing are more incline to offer financing like zenith
vs something like Kolb, or ferguson aircraft? Do they base it off of reputatuion?
>
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Ben
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119888#119888
Message 26
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| Subject: | CH601 hung up in a tree |
CAP just saved a CH601 pilot that was hung up in a tree top for 50 hours in
Mississippi http://www.aero-news.net/
Bob XL/Lyc
**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 hung up in a tree |
On 6/21/07, MaxNr@aol.com <MaxNr@aol.com> wrote:
> CAP just saved a CH601 pilot that was hung up in a tree top for 50 hours in
> Mississippi http://www.aero-news.net/
This may be a dumb question, but how did it take them 50 hours (ok, 48
hours since it says they took 2 hours getting him out) to find him?
ELT signals should be picked up pretty quickly, no? Then all you have
to do is triangulate, send a heli, and you're done. Right? What am I
missing?
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft financing |
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 29
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| Subject: | One last thing on vaporlock |
I learned a lot in the recent discussion of vaporlock and it prodded me into
checking around the Internet on the subject. I found a few suggestions for
experimental aircraft from a company that sells auto fuel conversions for
certified aircraft. For what its worth: Click here: Airplanes that may use automotive
fuel.
**************************************
See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 hung up in a tree |
The good news is (A) he will recover and (B) the wings stayed on.
Dred
---- MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
> CAP just saved a CH601 pilot that was hung up in a tree top for 50 hours in
> Mississippi http://www.aero-news.net/
> Bob XL/Lyc
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 hung up in a tree |
At least we can be thankful that (A) he will recover and (B) the wings stayed on.
Dred
Do Not Archive
---- MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
> CAP just saved a CH601 pilot that was hung up in a tree top for 50 hours in
> Mississippi http://www.aero-news.net/
> Bob XL/Lyc
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 hung up in a tree |
The only explanation I can think of is that the pilot/builder must have used green
scotchbrite. The stuff has been rumored to drastically slow down the broadcast
signal from ELTs.
Dred
Do Not Archive
---- ihab.awad@gmail.com wrote:
>
> On 6/21/07, MaxNr@aol.com <MaxNr@aol.com> wrote:
> > CAP just saved a CH601 pilot that was hung up in a tree top for 50 hours in
> > Mississippi http://www.aero-news.net/
>
> This may be a dumb question, but how did it take them 50 hours (ok, 48
> hours since it says they took 2 hours getting him out) to find him?
> ELT signals should be picked up pretty quickly, no? Then all you have
> to do is triangulate, send a heli, and you're done. Right? What am I
> missing?
>
> Ihab
>
> --
> Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 hung up in a tree |
> This may be a dumb question, but how did it take them 50 hours (ok, 48 hours
> since it says they took 2 hours getting him out) to find him? ELT signals
> should be picked up pretty quickly, no? Then all you have to do is triangulate,
> send a heli, and you're done. Right? What am I missing?
Maybe not a dumb question...let's just call it uninformed. :) Assuming the ELT
triggered (which is not always the case), it takes a while to mobilize a search
and rescue team. Then triangulation takes time....ELT's are not as easy and
swift as finding something via a GPS. And from the air, planes are not always
easily visible especially in dense foliage (which is why my plane will be painted
a BRIGHT color). And that assumes the weather was above minimums for air
rescue. Then comes access to the site for the ground pounders, which can often
be a problem, even after they know where they are. believe me....50 hours can
go by in a snap. [Read: always have survival supplies w/you when flying].
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Search & Rescue 15+ years
do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 hung up in a tree |
Maybe the wings really did fall off!
If they came to rest many miles away from the fuselage, then it would have thrown
the rescue parties off track due to an incorrect assumption that all of the
wreckage would be located in the same area.
[Laughing] [Laughing] [Laughing]
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119900#119900
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: One last thing on vaporlock |
part2_c25.19237734.33ac38a6_boundary--
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 |
Forgive me, But I fail to understand why any member of the corvair
community would sell their first generation hubs to a counterfeiter to
save a few bucks. Undermining WW sales at the expense of severing ties
with him seems like false economy to me. Instead of contacting this
counterfeiter off list, have the guts to contact him here, in the open,
if you intend to do business with him so that we may all recognize you
for what you are. If you have trouble with doing that, perhaps you
should reconsider who you choose to buy critical components from. I'll
choose to buy mine from someone who has done their own research and
development.
Dave Petersen
601XL Corvair
building wings in Oregon
Time: 03:40:44 PM PST US
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com<mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: WW's Black prop hub
I am looking for 2 of the old style black prop hubs with puck. If you
were
thinking of switching to the gold one contact me off list. I have
someone that
will make them in batches of 10 but thought I could help someone out by
buying theirs for what you paid for it. I understand that William is
only giving
partial credit for the swap.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 hung up in a tree |
According to FAA Registration this was a 601XL built by John FrewIII and
regestered to John Anderson of Alabama.. It has a LYC 0-235-C2C. Pilot
was Dennis Steinbock of Oregon. Airworthiness certificate issued 2-2007.
do not archive
Jim Hoak
----- Original Message -----
From: MaxNr@aol.com
To: Zenith-List@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:01 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 hung up in a tree
CAP just saved a CH601 pilot that was hung up in a tree top for 50
hours in Mississippi http://www.aero-news.net/
Bob XL/Lyc
**************************************
See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 |
But he has the "right" to "improve" it ;-)
Maybe he will change the color - to gold. That would be original.
-- Craig
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump |
Sorry for being short with you Tim, bad day.
Prior the my 601xl I built a Skyranger with a 912s. It was a high wing but
the fuel tank was located behind the seats essentially making the fuel run
up to the engines mechanical pump. The fuel system was similar to the xl
with a elec. pump between the fuel tank and the mechanical pump. As with
the xl I used the electric pump just prior to start up and the mechanical
pump after that. I had almost 400 hours on that plane and never had a fuel
delivery problem.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jab 3300 Fuel Pump
>
> Randy,
> I wasn't being critical. I've met Pete a few times and took the "Jab
> install in a Zodiac" class at his place in Shelbyville. He never
> commented about when to use the fuel pump and in retrospect I should have
> asked. He did warn about using fuel pumps that put out too much pressure.
> Your comment is very helpful in that I am going to find out from Pete what
> his logic is behind the procedure he recommends.
>
> The low wing Pete sells is the Lightning.... I can't tell you how it's
> fuel system design compares to the XL.
>
> In my 32 years of flying I've had 3 in-flight engine emergencies that
> required immediate landings. Fortunately each one was at altitude and an
> airport was nearby. My biggest fear would be power loss shortly after
> liftoff so you can understand my concern. All the other aircraft I've
> owned have been high wing and didn't even have a electric fuel pump so the
> XL will be something new for me. My experience with low wing aircraft is
> restricted to aircraft I have trained in and flown while giving flight
> instruction, mostly Piper and Beech products.
>
> Tim
>
> --------
> ______________
> CFII
> Champ L16A flying
> Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
> Working on wings
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119834#119834
>
>
>
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| Subject: | CH601 hung up in a tree |
Sounds like another good reason to install the next generation of ELTs.
Aside from the satellite location being tighter (25 square nm vs. 500 square
nm) the higher power pulsed output is more likely to punch through a foliage
canopy:
"Unlike the 121.50Mhz ELT, which transmits a continuous 100mW signal, the
406Mhz ELT transmits a whopping five watts for every 50 seconds for one-half
second. Because the system isn't always transmitting, battery life is fairly
long. Transmitting in short bursts allows the satellite to track up to 90
ELTs at once."
www.avionicswest.com/articles/406elt.htm
www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf
I spent the $1000 to get the Artex ME406:
www.artex.net/products/products.php?categoryid=15
If I fly over hostile terrain a lot I'll consider springing for a PLB:
www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/microfix406.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/fastfind.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/406plb.php
-- Craig
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
I know this will serve as the pilot light for the flame throwers but I noticed
the same thing and wonder if it is because the only washout the wing has is the
effect from the twisted ailerons? I was more concerned because the test was
upright (-G) and the primary loads most of us will see will be +G. With the unique
canted spars in this wing design, the upright and inverted load paths are
unarguably different - and my be substantially different due to the spar geometry
in the completed structure. Also keep in mind that the load transfer into
the fuselage is not symmetrical - that is, the geometry of the bolted joints
in not the same upright and inverted.
All that speculation made, I wonder if they will invert the same craft and go
to ultimate for 3 seconds minimum then go for failure just to determine the margin
in that particular assembly...
just my 0.02...
John Bolding <jnbolding1@teleshare.net> wrote:
Nobody get their shorts in a knot as I just have a couple of questions,
not trying to cast aspersions or stir the pot, just trying to learn something.
I notice that the sandbags are placed evenly along the wing, is that because
it's a rectangular wing? Generally when you see pics of load testing the bag
stack is thin at the tip and thick at the root. Maybe every test I've seen before
was of a tapered wing?? Donno, somebody help me here.
I guess in the recent pictures they were testing for negative loads as the bags
were on top of the wing , in the older test the fuselage was inverted and bags
were on the bottom, indicating a load test for positive G's.
I guess maybe Chris felt the prior positive G test was good to go and the negative
test was needed more than redoing something already done, OR maybe he isn't
finished yet. Interesting.
Sometimes it's a small thing . Van had a few problems (severe understatement)
with spars on very early RV3's. The spar caps were 1/8"x 1 1/4" bar stock
they were 8 thick at the root, some of us etched the caps and built a fixture
to marry them all together with 3M Hysol Structural Adhesive so we could drill
them as a single piece rather than 8 pieces of varying lengths. Turns out
10 yrs later when Van did in depth load testing that the adhesive improved the
crippling effect of the thin strips, making the cap assy act like a solid bar
rather than a bunch of strips. We were good for 2-3 more G's if I remember right.
I had already tested to Limit Load (6 g @ gross) in the air but was reassuring
nevertheless. The airplane now has over 2000 hrs but at inspection 10
yrs ago I de-rated it to utility category from aerobatic as I REALLY have no
confidence in a 35 yr old glue joint done on aluminum in an uncontrolled environment.
John Bolding
----- Original Message -----
From: ZodieRocket
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:01 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
For your viewing pleasure
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
Please forgive the listing of qualification: A&P, Materials Engineer (composites/adhesives)
at Boeing, 25+ years.
Please keep omnmind that 3M makes a very large assortment of "Scotch-Weld" adhesives.
Unfortunately, one of the more popular ones (and very old) is EC2216.
While the 2216 grey is a very tough and moderately strong adhesive, it suffers
from almost no strength at even moderately elevated temperatures (above 140F!).
Please choose an adhesive that provides decent performance (greater than 1000
psi lapshear and compression at 220F) to avoid bond strength degradation at
the temperatures that structure can heat soak to on the ramp. While skin temperatures
do cool very rapidly with minimal airflow, the internal structures can
take substantial time to cool.
When the USAF was looking at bonded joints made in the field (no etch process
line and corrosion protecting bonding primer) they learned that there is only
one way to get reasonable durability in a field bonded joint: thorough cleaning
with scothcbrite/equivalent and solvent washing, followed immediately by wet
scouring/scotchbriting/sanding the surfaces that will be closed by the bondline
using the mixed adhesive itself in the operation. The abrasion debris was
dry wiped from the surface, fresh adhesive added, and the joint closed. This was
found to produce a more corrosion resistant bondline - and corrosion is the
primary inroad leading to failed metal bond bondlines.
Ken Lilja <planes_by_ken@bellsouth.net> wrote:
John,
In my opinion, the glue is a very good idea in certain places. I am
thinking of adding 3M Scotch Weld structural epoxy (Aircraft Spruce)at
locations like the elevator horn strap. This will fill in any voids and
help with slightly oversized rivet holes. No relative motion, no
wallowed out rivet holes.We used this on the bonanza series when the
wing attach carry-thru webs were cracking at the hi-shear fasteners
retaining the bathtubs. This was per AD. Needless to say, the cleaner
the better with bonding. Grumman singles are all glued together.
Lift distribution: The idea is to get the entire wing to share the work
so to my eye the weight distribution looks ok. What I would like to
make sure of is that the weight is evenly distributed either side of the
center of lift. Weighting the wing for negative G: Most wings are
twice as strong in positive G, so this may be worst case condition.
That said I would like to see positive G loading also.
I would also like to see the wing loaded in torque at the wing tip +- G
to see how much twist there is(especially a wing with the baggage
lockers). A wing that twists too much would not be good, BUT ALL WINGS
TWIST. One possible fix is actually easy. Ad some diagonal ribs in
between the regular ribs (think Ercoup).
JUST MY OPINIONS
Ken Lilja
John Bolding wrote:
> Nobody get their shorts in a knot as I just have a couple of
> questions, not trying to cast aspersions or stir the pot, just trying to
> learn something.
> I notice that the sandbags are placed evenly along the wing, is that
> because it's a rectangular wing? Generally when you see pics of load
> testing the bag stack is thin at the tip and thick at the root. Maybe
> every test I've seen before was of a tapered wing?? Donno, somebody
> help me here.
> I guess in the recent pictures they were testing for negative loads as
> the bags were on top of the wing , in the older test the fuselage was
> inverted and bags were on the bottom, indicating a load test for
> positive G's.
> I _guess_ maybe Chris felt the prior positive G test was good to go and
> the negative test was needed more than redoing something already done,
> OR maybe he isn't finished yet. Interesting.
>
> Sometimes it's a small thing . Van had a few problems (severe
> understatement) with spars on very early RV3's. The spar caps were
> 1/8"x 1 1/4" bar stock they were 8 thick at the root, some of us
> etched the caps and built a fixture to marry them all together with 3M
> Hysol Structural Adhesive so we could drill them as a single piece
> rather than 8 pieces of varying lengths. Turns out 10 yrs later when
> Van did in depth load testing that the adhesive improved the crippling
> effect of the thin strips, making the cap assy act like a solid bar
> rather than a bunch of strips. We were good for 2-3 more G's if I
> remember right. I had already tested to Limit Load (6 g @ gross) in
> the air but was reassuring nevertheless. The airplane now has over 2000
> hrs but at inspection 10 yrs ago I de-rated it to utility category from
> aerobatic as I REALLY have no confidence in a 35 yr old glue joint done
> on aluminum in an uncontrolled environment.
>
> John Bolding
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
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Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 |
Once again the voice of common sense and fair play is heard. Thank you, Dan.
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave P
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07
Forgive me, But I fail to understand why any member of the corvair community
would sell their first generation hubs to a counterfeiter to save a few
bucks. Undermining WW sales at the expense of severing ties with him seems
like false economy to me. Instead of contacting this counterfeiter off
list, have the guts to contact him here, in the open, if you intend to do
business with him so that we may all recognize you for what you are. If you
have trouble with doing that, perhaps you should reconsider who you choose
to buy critical components from. I'll choose to buy mine from someone who
has done their own research and development.
Dave Petersen
601XL Corvair
building wings in Oregon
Time: 03:40:44 PM PST US
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Subject: Zenith-List: WW's Black prop hub
I am looking for 2 of the old style black prop hubs with puck. If you were
thinking of switching to the gold one contact me off list. I have someone
that
will make them in batches of 10 but thought I could help someone out by
buying theirs for what you paid for it. I understand that William is only
giving
partial credit for the swap.
Message 44
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| Subject: | 601 XL load testing |
Hey Paul, it does not have to be a weakness - all it needs to be is slightly unstable.
Then a wayward load comes along and under the right circumstances the
instability leads to buckling or bowig of some element out of plane and failure
pops up.
At 10:09 AM 6/21/2007, you wrote:
>One thing I continue to think about is that in all the fatal 601XL accidents
>(regardless of the cause) it seems likely that a ballistic recovery chute
>could have saved some lives. This includes Jim Pellien's which no one claims
>was tied to a structural failure. But I am waiting on my preliminary W&B
>data to see if a chute would make my plane safer or not. I'd like to see
>Scott Laughlin's numbers for his BRS-equipped XL even thought the Corvair is
>heavier than a Jabiru 3300.
I don't know whether a ballistic chute would have helped with any of
the recent accidents or not. It seems that all of them happened at
low altitude. Between the human delay and the deployment delay I
doubt a chute would have deployed in time to do any good on any of
these accidents.
I have been thinking and looking at my plane as I reassemble the
fuselage for riveting and noticed there might be a little weakness in
the wing attach structure. There are cute little gussets supporting
the gear uprights to the longerons, but no similar gussets on the
wing spar uprights. Indeed, the only thing holding the main spar
carry-through at the proper angle is a couple of pieces of side skin
and the seat front bottom which is the same weight as the side
skin. I considered adding gussets between the wing spar uprights and
the main longerons and discussed (email) that with Nick at ZAC. He
approved the addition as not being a problem, but he did not comment
on whether or not it was helpful.
Paul
XL fuselage
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?
---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and
lay it on us.
Message 45
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Welcome back Leo, I see the humor is still in tact.
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119935#119935
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft financing |
I am a company the finances aircraft do I give money to someone with a metal aircraft
with history vs, light aircraft covered in cloth. Hummmmmmmmmmm.
JUan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gig Giacona <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>Sent: Jun 21, 2007 3:51 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft financing
>
>
>I'm not slaming Kolb or Ferguson aircraft but they LOOK like ultralights. The
finace people look at the 601 and see something that at looks like a Tomahawk
or a Skipper. In other words a real airplane.
>
>
>ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.c wrote:
>> Here's question for all Finance experts out there,
>>
>>
>> How come most aircraft financing are more incline to offer financing like zenith
vs something like Kolb, or ferguson aircraft? Do they base it off of reputatuion?
>>
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119888#119888
>
>
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Leo,
I think I might be able to help with your bracket. It may take a while,
though. I've got to get my eyes fixed first.
Jay in Dallas
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Prop/Exhaust comments requested. |
If I can't solve this, some one is going to get a good deal on the engine
package. I also have a motorcycle guy real interested. But, this plane
will fly. Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Prop/Exhaust comments requested.
>
> Am I reading your post correctly? Did 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 3 props have
> tracking issues? Is the flange or redrive the common factor? If you bolt a
> straight edge to the prop flange how does the tracking look? This seems
> too
> obvious so I assume you checked this - just wondering.
>
> "someone is going to get a good deal"
>
> Are you going to sell the whole plane or switch to another engine?
>
> -- Craig
>
>
> --
> 8:23 AM
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL load testing |
David,
Thanks for the heads up, (we did use 2216) we knew about the temp
limitation as well as all the application snafus. All we were looking
for was a method to ease fabrication. What we got was very unexpected
as far as the help with the buckling problem, which at the time we
didn't know existed.
What I was trying to get across to the list was the fact that sometimes
very, VERY small ,seemingly insignificant design details can have a BIG
impact on the final scheme of things.
Another thing worthy of note is several RV's came apart, further
testing was done that ended up with mixed conclusions. Design was
amended, (fewer caps but thicker, better resistance to buckling and a
few more vertical stiffeners on the web) and problem went away. At the
time we got our info from the newsletter, decades before Al invented the
'net. Dick kept us up to date on his testing, just like Chris is doing
here.
Thanks for the info.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:27 PM
Subject: xxx Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL load testing
Please forgive the listing of qualification: A&P, Materials Engineer
(composites/adhesives) at Boeing, 25+ years.
Please keep omnmind that 3M makes a very large assortment of
"Scotch-Weld" adhesives. Unfortunately, one of the more popular ones
(and very old) is EC2216. While the 2216 grey is a very tough and
moderately strong adhesive, it suffers from almost no strength at even
moderately elevated temperatures (above 140=B0F!). Please choose an
adhesive that provides decent performance (greater than 1000 psi
lapshear and compression at 220=B0F) to avoid bond strength degradation
at the temperatures that structure can heat soak to on the ramp. While
skin temperatures do cool very rapidly with minimal airflow, the
internal structures can take substantial time to cool.
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07 |
Hey Dave, I'm in Troutdale, Oregon, write me at darrellhaas@verizon.net
I have some questions for you. Thanks. Darrell
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: hillsgun
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07
Once again the voice of common sense and fair play is heard. Thank
you, Dan.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave P
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:04 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 44 Msgs - 06/20/07
Forgive me, But I fail to understand why any member of the corvair
community would sell their first generation hubs to a counterfeiter to
save a few bucks. Undermining WW sales at the expense of severing ties
with him seems like false economy to me. Instead of contacting this
counterfeiter off list, have the guts to contact him here, in the open,
if you intend to do business with him so that we may all recognize you
for what you are. If you have trouble with doing that, perhaps you
should reconsider who you choose to buy critical components from. I'll
choose to buy mine from someone who has done their own research and
development.
Dave Petersen
601XL Corvair
building wings in Oregon
Time: 03:40:44 PM PST US
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Subject: Zenith-List: WW's Black prop hub
I am looking for 2 of the old style black prop hubs with puck. If you
were
thinking of switching to the gold one contact me off list. I have
someone that
will make them in batches of 10 but thought I could help someone out
by
buying theirs for what you paid for it. I understand that William is
only giving
partial credit for the swap.
Message 51
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|
Just curious, does anyone know how many 601 XL's are out there flying?
And for how long?
How many with Jabiru 3300?
Darrell
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