---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/01/07: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:38 AM - Selling my XL project (annette fellabaum) 2. 03:59 AM - Re: Selling my XL project (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 3. 05:02 AM - RE : Selling my XL project (Jean-Paul Roy) 4. 05:22 AM - Re: Canopy Latch (leinad) 5. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: Canopy Latch (wade jones) 6. 06:38 AM - Re: Selling my XL project (robert stone) 7. 07:04 AM - Re: 601 dual time (Bill Naumuk) 8. 07:35 AM - Re: 601 dual time (dgardea(at)gmail.com) 9. 09:00 AM - Primer adhesion (Arthur Olechowski) 10. 09:08 AM - Re: Primer adhesion (Bill Naumuk) 11. 09:11 AM - Re: 601 dual time (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 09:51 AM - Re: Canopy Latch (Herb Heaton) 13. 10:01 AM - Re: 601 dual time (Bill Naumuk) 14. 10:06 AM - Underestimation (Bill Naumuk) 15. 10:27 AM - Re: 601 dual time (Bryan Martin) 16. 10:28 AM - Re: Primer adhesion (kevinbonds) 17. 10:39 AM - Re: Primer adhesion (kevinbonds) 18. 10:56 AM - Baggage shelf mod. (alex_01) 19. 11:22 AM - Re: Baggage shelf mod. (Juan Vega) 20. 11:41 AM - Re: Baggage shelf mod. (alex_01) 21. 11:47 AM - Re: Canopy Latch (Dave Thompson) 22. 11:52 AM - Re: 601 dual time (Matt Stecher) 23. 12:35 PM - Re: nylon tube conduit (Dave Thompson) 24. 12:42 PM - Re: Canopy Latch (Malcolm Hunt) 25. 12:46 PM - Re: 601 dual time (Bill Naumuk) 26. 12:47 PM - Re: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings (ALAN BEYER) 27. 01:12 PM - Fw: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings (Carlos Sa) 28. 03:22 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Robert Hansen) 29. 03:57 PM - Re: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings (Edward Moody II) 30. 04:05 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Edward Moody II) 31. 04:35 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Dino Bortolin) 32. 04:37 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Arthur Olechowski) 33. 04:37 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Arthur Olechowski) 34. 04:41 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Arthur Olechowski) 35. 04:47 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Arthur Olechowski) 36. 05:03 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Arthur Olechowski) 37. 07:31 PM - Re: 601 dual time (Paul Mulwitz) 38. 07:43 PM - Re: Primer adhesion (Paul Mulwitz) 39. 08:40 PM - Re: 601 dual time (Bryan Martin) 40. 11:38 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 41. 11:41 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:39 AM PST US From: annette fellabaum Subject: Zenith-List: Selling my XL project I need your help. I have been unemployed now for 15 months due to company downsizing. And, the prospects of finding another engineering job in Michigan are remote without my moving. So, I am accepting early retirement (not all bad). However, finishing an airplane as expensive as the XL is not in the cards either, and I need to sell my project. Two weeks ago I put my project up for sale on this site with virtually no respoce at 10% off list price ( I'm no salesman). I would hope to sell this project before people spend money at Oshkosh and wait 10 weeks for delivery for the same items. This is where I need your help. Is this the best site to sell these sub-kits? If not, where? What is a fair price if 10% off list is too high? (free is not an option) Am I better to sell as single unit or as components? What I have, and the work completed is listed below. I like the plane, and would not be selling it if finances allowed. But I do need some help in finding a home for this project. Tom Fellabaum Coldwater, MI fellabaum_t@yahoo.com Fuel System Kit - Still in original packaging Tail Kit - Ribs have been rivited to the spars on the horizonal stabilizer - no other work has been completed Wings & Aileron/Flap Kit - Rear ribs have been fitted (clecoed) to the spars on both wings - Lower rear skin has been fitted to the right wing Changes made to wing - Installed flanged bronze bushings in bellcrank instead of the steel bushing - Changed wing tip to complete the Horner tip from main spar back. Will explain/change back/ or price accordingly for the serious buyer. --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:39 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Selling my XL project Tom, I can tell you from experience that sadly a kit doesn't bring nearly as much as you paid for it and for some strange reason that is the way it is with all aviation parts. It all depends on how long you are willing to hold on to it and finding someone that wants to start one right now. I have seen kits ranging from 13,000 for an older one up to 16,000 for a new one. This list is hit and miss but you would have much more luck putting your add in Barnstormers. You also need to list the date the kit was manufactured because the older kits had thinner skins and a weaker firewall. Also what options come with it and have you built any of the parts. I have seen kits that were for sale and the workmanship was not all that great so pictures would help also. What part of the country do you live? Anyway just some things to consider. List Asshole Jeff ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:48 AM PST US From: Jean-Paul Roy Subject: RE : Zenith-List: Selling my XL project Hello, I don't really know about how much you should ask for your project. Have you tried www.barnstormer.com a great place to sell. Hope this helps J.P. annette fellabaum a crit : I need your help. I have been unemployed now for 15 months due to company downsizing. And, the prospects of finding another engineering job in Michigan are remote without my moving. So, I am accepting early retirement (not all bad). However, finishing an airplane as expensive as the XL is not in the cards either, and I need to sell my project. Two weeks ago I put my project up for sale on this site with virtually no respoce at 10% off list price ( I'm no salesman). I would hope to sell this project before people spend money at Oshkosh and wait 10 weeks for delivery for the same items. This is where I need your help. Is this the best site to sell these sub-kits? If not, where? What is a fair price if 10% off list is too high? (free is not an option) Am I better to sell as single unit or as components? What I have, and the work completed is listed below. I like the plane, and would not be selling it if finances allowed. But I do need some help in finding a home for this project. Tom Fellabaum Coldwater, MI fellabaum_t@yahoo.com Fuel System Kit - Still in original packaging Tail Kit - Ribs have been rivited to the spars on the horizonal stabilizer - no other work has been completed Wings & Aileron/Flap Kit - Rear ribs have been fitted (clecoed) to the spars on both wings - Lower rear skin has been fitted to the right wing Changes made to wing - Installed flanged bronze bushings in bellcrank instead of the steel bushing - Changed wing tip to complete the Horner tip from main spar back. Will explain/change back/ or price accordingly for the serious buyer. --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. --------------------------------- Changez de tte et de tenue tous les jours si vous le voulez ! Volez la vedette sur Yahoo! Qubec Avatars ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch From: "leinad" Wade, I noticed you're plans building.. Where did you get the latch parts? I'm still looking for a source. Dan (Plans Build XL/Corvair) > On this same subject ,what is the striker stud thickness ,part #6-C-2-1. My > plans make no mention of the diameter of this stud unless I am overlooking > it. Thanks > > Wade Jones South Texas > 601XL plans building > Cont. 0200 > -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121515#121515 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:15 AM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch Leinad ,I have not yet reached the point where I need the latch parts .I plan to buy them from ZAC if possible . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: "leinad" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:22 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch > > Wade, > I noticed you're plans building.. Where did you get the latch parts? I'm > still looking for a source. > Dan (Plans Build XL/Corvair) > > >> On this same subject ,what is the striker stud thickness ,part #6-C-2-1. >> My >> plans make no mention of the diameter of this stud unless I am >> overlooking >> it. Thanks >> >> Wade Jones South Texas >> 601XL plans building >> Cont. 0200 >> > > > -------- > Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121515#121515 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:26 AM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Selling my XL project Tom, As two other members of this net have advised, Barnstormers is the best place to market your kit and the advice you received about being specific as to how much work has already been done, pictures to show quality of work and your location is good advice as well. They gave you everything except the Barnstormer URL so here it is. http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php? PHPSESSID=2ef94a86daa861b6da018683153522ef If and when you make a sale they would like a donation however it's not required. The service is free. Tracy Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ---- From: annette fellabaum To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 5:36 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Selling my XL project I need your help. I have been unemployed now for 15 months due to company downsizing. And, the prospects of finding another engineering job in Michigan are remote without my moving. So, I am accepting early retirement (not all bad). However, finishing an airplane as expensive as the XL is not in the cards either, and I need to sell my project. Two weeks ago I put my project up for sale on this site with virtually no respoce at 10% off list price ( I'm no salesman). I would hope to sell this project before people spend money at Oshkosh and wait 10 weeks for delivery for the same items. This is where I need your help. Is this the best site to sell these sub-kits? If not, where? What is a fair price if 10% off list is too high? (free is not an option) Am I better to sell as single unit or as components? What I have, and the work completed is listed below. I like the plane, and would not be selling it if finances allowed. But I do need some help in finding a home for this project. Tom Fellabaum Coldwater, MI fellabaum_t@yahoo.com Fuel System Kit - Still in original packaging Tail Kit - Ribs have been rivited to the spars on the horizonal stabilizer - no other work has been completed Wings & Aileron/Flap Kit - Rear ribs have been fitted (clecoed) to the spars on both wings - Lower rear skin has been fitted to the right wing Changes made to wing - Installed flanged bronze bushings in bellcrank instead of the steel bushing - Changed wing tip to complete the Horner tip from main spar back. Will explain/change back/ or price accordingly for the serious buyer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:52 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time Bryan- Very interesting. This is the first comparison of the 601 flight characteristics to a high wing plane. The CFII I hope to talk into doing my first test flights and then transition me said the closest certified GA comparison was a Grumman trainer loaded to the aft CG limits. (How he knows is beyond me, but I trust him). I've never flown anything that wasn't made in Wichita, so this could be good news for me. Especially since you can't rent so much as a Cherokee around here- nothing but Cessnas, Cubs, or Champs. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time > > Before My first flight in my Zodiac, I flew several hours in Cessna 152s > and 172s. The approach and landing speeds in the Cessnas are very similar > to the Zodiac and the performance is not drastically different. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 dual time From: "dgardea(at)gmail.com" I getting current again by taking instruction in an Evektor Sportstar (see attached pic). This light sport is very similar in dimensions and performance specs to the 601XL. Three of my instructor's past students have been Zodiac builders. I plan to keep flying this plane throughout the construction of my projejct. Phill, you didn't mention where you're located, but this aircraft is based in Greenwood, Indiana. Regards, Dave -------- Dave Gardea 601XL - Corvair working on wings http://home.comcast.net/~davegardea/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121535#121535 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/sportstar_612.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:13 AM PST US From: Arthur Olechowski Subject: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Hi All, Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to go from here. The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? AJ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:09 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion 72% humidity might have something to do with it. Try a dehumidifier in your shop. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Olechowski To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 11:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Hi All, Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to go from here. The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? AJ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:50 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time Hi Bill, I hope you aren't planning on doing your transition training in your own plane. I think that would mean your instructor/test pilot would need to complete the 40 hours of test program for your plane before you could do any dual instruction. Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 07:05 AM 7/1/2007, you wrote: > >Bryan- > Very interesting. This is the first comparison of the 601 flight > characteristics to a high wing plane. The CFII I hope to talk into > doing my first test flights and then transition me said the closest > certified GA comparison was a Grumman trainer loaded to the aft CG > limits. (How he knows is beyond me, but I trust him). I've never > flown anything that wasn't made in Wichita, so this could be good > news for me. Especially since you can't rent so much as a Cherokee > around here- nothing but Cessnas, Cubs, or Champs. > do not archive >Bill Naumuk >HDS Fuse/Corvair >Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:22 AM PST US From: "Herb Heaton" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Canopy Latch Dan, After some research I found the Canopy Latch at SPAE-NAUR Co. in Toronto, Canada. Look at www.spaenaur.com/view_pdf.asp?page=L70 You will need part # 099-030 and 090-031 (right and left). I ordered mine from Windsor Factory Supply about 4 weeks ago...haven't received the parts yet. Phone number is 519-966-2202 Price is $25.29 each, this includes the Striker Stud. Herb >From: "leinad" >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy Latch >Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:42:05 -0700 > > >Does anyone know where to purchase the canopy latch parts? >Also my drawings show the bottom bracket for the gas spring (6-C-2.2) as >being 14mm wide. This seams to narrow, and especially as the drawing shows >the stud sticking out 12mm and coming near flush with an edge of the >bracket. Perhaps one of you kit builders could measure yours and tell me >how wide it is. I just spent a laborious hour cutting the steal parts >using a hack saw, now I think there might be a mistake on the drawing. >These are drawings dated 1/03. >Thanks. >Dan >601XL/Corvair.. 1/2 way maybe > >-------- >Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121442#121442 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:12 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time Paul- No, I don't expect him to fly off the time. I do intend to fly my own plane-don't have any choice. He can make sure the ship is airworthy before I take it up. Better than doing everything on my own, although there are tons of people that have. No one was available to give dual to the Wright brothers. More than that, I still can't concieve how their mechanic built an aircraft engine using only a drill press and a hacksaw!! Remember, this is EXPERIMENTAL aviation. Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time > > > Hi Bill, > > I hope you aren't planning on doing your transition training in your own > plane. I think that would mean your instructor/test pilot would need to > complete the 40 hours of test program for your plane before you could do > any dual instruction. > > Paul > XL fuselage > do not archive > > At 07:05 AM 7/1/2007, you wrote: >> >>Bryan- >> Very interesting. This is the first comparison of the 601 flight >> characteristics to a high wing plane. The CFII I hope to talk into doing >> my first test flights and then transition me said the closest certified >> GA comparison was a Grumman trainer loaded to the aft CG limits. (How he >> knows is beyond me, but I trust him). I've never flown anything that >> wasn't made in Wichita, so this could be good news for me. Especially >> since you can't rent so much as a Cherokee around here- nothing but >> Cessnas, Cubs, or Champs. >> do not archive >>Bill Naumuk >>HDS Fuse/Corvair >>Townville, Pa > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:19 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Underestimation All- Sorry, I grossly underestimated the time it would take to fabricate 6F13-6 from scratch from scraps. I estimated 15 minutes and it actually took 27 minutes. I guess I'm a liar and thus a candidate for flogging. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:33 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time There are some differences in flight characteristics between the Cessnas and the Zodiac. The Cessnas are more stable in roll and tend to have a lower rate of roll even though they require a little less control force in the roll axis. My Zodiac has a pretty good roll rate and tends to stay at whatever roll attitude you put it in. My zodiac is also more sensitive in the pitch axis, especially when at aft CG limit. Unlike a Cessna, my Zodiac will not lift off on its own, I have to apply some back pressure to rotate and lift off. The touchdown is a bit different also. Even if I come in a bit too fast, my Zodiac has very little tendency to "float", and as soon as the mains touch the ground, the plane is done flying and will stick right to the runway. I can't remember ever bouncing it and I've made a few pretty firm landings with it. I think the Zodiac is easier to land in a crosswind than the Cessnas I used to fly. Overall, I didn't encounter any really surprising or scary flight characteristics with the Zodiac. I had about 300 total hours of flight time when I started flying my Zodiac. Most of that was in Cessna 150/152 and 172s. I only had about 3 hours in low wing aircraft. I also had a few recent hours in a Cutlass RG and, several years ago, a few hours in a Cardinal RG. I remember with the Cardinal that it wasn't hard to get into a pitch oscillation mode on short final. Bill Naumuk wrote: > > Bryan- > Very interesting. This is the first comparison of the 601 flight > characteristics to a high wing plane. The CFII I hope to talk into doing > my first test flights and then transition me said the closest certified > GA comparison was a Grumman trainer loaded to the aft CG limits. (How he > knows is beyond me, but I trust him). I've never flown anything that > wasn't made in Wichita, so this could be good news for me. Especially > since you can't rent so much as a Cherokee around here- nothing but > Cessnas, Cubs, or Champs. > do not archive > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" > > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:38 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time > > >> >> >> Before My first flight in my Zodiac, I flew several hours in Cessna >> 152s and 172s. The approach and landing speeds in the Cessnas are very >> similar to the Zodiac and the performance is not drastically different. > > > > > > > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:05 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Are you scuffing the surface or chemical etching at all? I like Alumiprep. Also I am using Zinc Oxide in the rattle cans instead of Chromate. Think it is a little safer. Adhesion seems pretty good to me, and I live in Nashville, Tn. High humidity is just a fact of life here in summer. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:18 AM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Also, a thin coating will adhere better than a thick one. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Baggage shelf mod. From: "alex_01" Hello, i was always a bit unhappy with the large baggage shelf but when you leave anything on it(headsets maps etc)it is not so nice to put some bags etc there so we made 2 carbon composite trays (200mm long 150mm wide 250mm deep) and rivet them into the shelf - looks good and is very practical. just incase any of you is interested in them please give me a note as i have the molds now and we can make some more Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121580#121580 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00037b_797.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00036b_133.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00036_470.jpg ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:58 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Baggage shelf mod. nice carbon boxes, what kind of carpeting is that? it looks very thin and light wieght, or is it paint? -----Original Message----- >From: alex_01 >Sent: Jul 1, 2007 1:55 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Baggage shelf mod. > > >Hello, >i was always a bit unhappy with the large baggage shelf but when you leave anything on it(headsets maps etc)it is not so nice to put some bags etc there so we made 2 carbon composite trays (200mm long 150mm wide 250mm deep) and rivet them into the shelf - looks good and is very practical. >just incase any of you is interested in them please give me a note as i have the molds now and we can make some more > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121580#121580 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00037b_797.jpg >http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00036b_133.jpg >http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00036_470.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Baggage shelf mod. From: "alex_01" it is alcantara very very light and looks super also good to keep clean Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121596#121596 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:57 AM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Latch The following link does not give you exactly what you are looking for but it does give a source for some latch handles & stuff. http://www.southco.com/product/default.aspx?cid=7315 Dave Thompson ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:12 AM PST US From: "Matt Stecher" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 dual time Transitioning & Training Info I have been researching this same issue but from a student pilots point of view. I am very close to soloing in a warrior toward my PP, but work and family has kept me out of the cockpit for about a month now and I am having trouble seeing the end of the road. The sport pilot license would help me get a ticket in less time and if I could do the training in an XL there would be no transition time short of different systems. Well I have not found an XL closer than Dallas (to Houston), but I have found a Tecnam Sierra ( http://www.tecnamaircraft.com/P2002_Sierra.htm ) being offered for training and its specs match the XL very closely. The Cliff Hyde Flying Service (281-464-6524) at Ellington Field, south of Houston, is offering this aircraft for training. I think this would be a good aircraft for transition training to the XL. The only problem is that its rental rate is $90/hr wet and the instructor is another $30 or so on top of that. This is the same rate I am paying for my dual training in a Warrior. This is where I think the Sport Pilot License may not live up to its name of being a cheaper road to flying. It is true that you only need half the flight time, but holy cow, These planes are costing 100k to buy and how am I supposed to afford that? So for me, I am probably going to finish up my PP in the Warrior and use the Sierra for my transition training unless an XL pilot in the area is feeling generous. The sport pilot option is tempting, but I am going to want the skills offered by the PP in the end anyways so why not go all the way now. I hope this can help someone. Happy Building and Flying, Matt Stecher Katy, TX XLVair 1% (but having fun learning) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:51 PM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: nylon tube conduit Hey Michael, > I'm just curious. What's wrong with split? > Carroll Guys, I'm not building yet so this only a guess. It seems to me that the main reason to use conduit in a wing is to be able to remove, replace or add wires after skin closure. If I were not planning to perform adds, moves or changes to a wire run, I would simply bundle the wires along the properly supported run using either plastic ty-wraps or lacing cord, of course following the guidelines of AC43.13.1B. If the conduit is the corrugated split loom also used in autos (or similar), one cannot pull out existing wires and re-pull others. The split in the loom will open and make pulling wire a bear to do. Now, a question you A&P's out there: AC43.13.1B, Chapter 11, Aircraft electrical systems, Section 8, Wiring Installation Inspection requirements, Item K states: "K. Insulating tubing must be kept at a minimum and must be used to protect wire and cable from abrasion, chafing, exposure to fluid and other conditions which could affect the cable installation. However, the use of insulating tubing for support of wires and cables in lieu of stand-offs is prohibited." Does that mean that running a tube the length of a wing to support say, wing tip lighting is prohibited? Or does it mean that the conduit must be properly supported along its run. Please archive your answer Dave Thompson ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:45 PM PST US From: "Malcolm Hunt" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Latch Canopy latches used by Zenith are Eberhard 1-400 L & R. Modification is required as per Zenith Drawings. Look at www.eberhard.com and search rotary latches. Best regards Malcolm Hunt CH601XL plans builder in England----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Thompson To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:46 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy Latch The following link does not give you exactly what you are looking for but it does give a source for some latch handles & stuff. http://www.southco.com/product/default.aspx?cid=7315 Dave Thompson ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:21 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time Bryan- I'm sorry I already killed this post with "Do not archive". This is the type of information vital to builders getting ready to fly. Very good description of control inputs. Three interesting things- 1. "Cessnas require less control force in the roll axis." I always thought rolling a Cessna was like pushing a concrete block through Jello. Very mushy. 2. The Zenith is very sensitive in the pitch axis. This has been cited numerous times by other builders. PIO is a distinct possibility and new pilots should be on the lookout for this. I know this is my biggest concern. 3. "The Zenith has little tendency to float". This statement surprises me. I would suspect otherwise, but am glad to hear of it. Matt, maybe you could archive this one? Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time > > There are some differences in flight characteristics between the Cessnas > and the Zodiac. The Cessnas are more stable in roll and tend to have a > lower rate of roll even though they require a little less control force in > the roll axis. My Zodiac has a pretty good roll rate and tends to stay at > whatever roll attitude you put it in. My zodiac is also more sensitive in > the pitch axis, especially when at aft CG limit. > > Unlike a Cessna, my Zodiac will not lift off on its own, I have to apply > some back pressure to rotate and lift off. The touchdown is a bit > different also. Even if I come in a bit too fast, my Zodiac has very > little tendency to "float", and as soon as the mains touch the ground, the > plane is done flying and will stick right to the runway. I can't remember > ever bouncing it and I've made a few pretty firm landings with it. I think > the Zodiac is easier to land in a crosswind than the Cessnas I used to > fly. Overall, I didn't encounter any really surprising or scary flight > characteristics with the Zodiac. > > I had about 300 total hours of flight time when I started flying my > Zodiac. Most of that was in Cessna 150/152 and 172s. I only had about 3 > hours in low wing aircraft. I also had a few recent hours in a Cutlass RG > and, several years ago, a few hours in a Cardinal RG. I remember with the > Cardinal that it wasn't hard to get into a pitch oscillation mode on short > final. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:20 PM PST US From: ALAN BEYER Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings Dred, Here are a couple of pics of my HDS. Al from Oshkosh ----- Original Message ---- From: Edward Moody II Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:21:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings Hi to all, I'm having no luck finding useful photos of the fairing that closes up the gap under the horizontal stabilizer. If left to my own imagination, I'm sure I can come up with something but I'd appreciate the opportunity to see what some of you have done. If you have some useful photos and/or hints, please..... hook a brother up. Dred 601XL ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:05 PM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Fwd: Zenith-List: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings This msg did not get posted due to the zip attachment. I converted the file to JPEG to reduce its size. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings I read your note too quickly: I was thinking of the fairing on top of the stabilizer, in front of the rudder - see attachment (it's a 1.4 MB bitmap, but only 9K when zipped). BUT - I did remembered that Peter Chapman posted his solution years ago (fairing under horiz stab) . Fortunately, his web site is till around: http://web.ionsys.com/~pchapman/zdc/zdc_photos_construction.htm Cheers Carlos CH601-HD, plans Montreal, Canada "The Roman Rule - The one who says it can't be done should never interrupt the one who's doing it." On 29/06/07, Edward Moody II wrote: > > Hi to all, > > I'm having no luck finding useful photos of the fairing that closes up > the gap under the horizontal stabilizer. If left to my own imagination, I'm > sure I can come up with something but I'd appreciate the opportunity to see > what some of you have done. If you have some useful photos and/or hints, > please..... hook a brother up. > > Dred > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:54 PM PST US From: Robert Hansen Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion I just zinc chromated the skelaton from my 701 rudder and I live in the very dry Southern New Mexico. We do not measure humidity because we have none (joke). I too can scratch off the primer with my finger nail. Prior to spraying I cleaned up the metal with laquer thinner. see at: http://websites.expercraft.com/rhansen/ Rob Hansen ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Naumuk Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 10:08:52 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion 72% humidity might have something to do with it. Try a dehumidifier in your shop. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Olechowski Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 11:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Hi All, Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to go from here. The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? AJ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:35 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Mounting horizontal stab and fairings Thanks to all who have sent photos and drawings and offered help. I think I have a handle on what I want to do and how to do it now. Dred Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:19 PM PST US From: "Edward Moody II" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion I'm not a paint expert..... in fact, I hate painting, but I think your problem is that you expected the primer to get hard much too fast. I have found that using self etching Zinc Oxide from rattle cans, cleaning the aluminum with laquer thinner (repeatedly until clean and fairly streak free) then following the directions works well. The primer can be scatched off pretty easily until it has had a few days to harden. Gradually it takes much more than a fingernail to get through it. You can etch before priming..... you can scratch the hell out of the parts with scotchbrite, emery cloth, a rock from the nearby streambed, whatever. But until the primer itself is tough, it can be pulled off the surface. Try giving it more time if you can. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Olechowski To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Hi All, Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to go from here. The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? AJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 6/30/2007 3:10 PM ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:01 PM PST US From: "Dino Bortolin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion I'm no expert on this, but it sounds like a surface preparation problem to me. I just zinc chromated the inside of my rudder trim tab yesterday. I scuffed the surface with a Scotchbrite pad, washed it with warm water and lemon-scented dish soap, and rinsed it with hot water. Didn't use any solvents. Let it air dry and brushed the chromate on with a disposable sponge brush. Then attempted to mow the lawn (realized I didn't have gas, didn't feel like going out to buy any!) and came back 30 minutes later. At that point it was dry enough that I was able to clamp the piece in my brake and form the trim tab without any coming off the surface. Dino Bortolin 601XL plans/Corvair On 7/1/07, Arthur Olechowski wrote: > > Hi All, > Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide > and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to > go from here. > The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes > out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions > as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. > The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully > cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure > overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a > fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? > > AJ > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:50 PM PST US From: Arthur Olechowski Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Kevin, I've scuffed everything with 3M scotchbrite, degreased, alumiprep'd, alodined, rinsed and allowed it to dry overnight and then primed. I think I may have too thick of a coating. do not archive AJ kevinbonds wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Are you scuffing the surface or chemical etching at all? I like Alumiprep. Also I am using Zinc Oxide in the rattle cans instead of Chromate. Think it is a little safer. Adhesion seems pretty good to me, and I live in Nashville, Tn. High humidity is just a fact of life here in summer. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:50 PM PST US From: Arthur Olechowski Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion I believe that may be my problem. do not archive AJ kevinbonds wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Also, a thin coating will adhere better than a thick one. Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:14 PM PST US From: Arthur Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Rob, I like your nifty plans storage desk on your site, not to mention your actual dedicated shop. do not archive AJ Robert Hansen wrote: I just zinc chromated the skelaton from my 701 rudder and I live in the very dry Southern New Mexico. We do not measure humidity because we have none (joke). I too can scratch off the primer with my finger nail. Prior to spraying I cleaned up the metal with laquer thinner. see at: http://websites.expercraft.com/rhansen/ Rob Hansen ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Naumuk Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 10:08:52 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion 72% humidity might have something to do with it. Try a dehumidifier in your shop. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Olechowski To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 11:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Hi All, Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to go from here. The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? AJ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:02 PM PST US From: Arthur Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Dred, I agree, more cure time is necessary prior to assembly. Dryer weather would nice its been raining all week long. I think I should of cranked the AC on for awhile prior to priming to remove some of the humidity. do not archive AJ Edward Moody II wrote: I'm not a paint expert..... in fact, I hate painting, but I think your problem is that you expected the primer to get hard much too fast. I have found that using self etching Zinc Oxide from rattle cans, cleaning the aluminum with laquer thinner (repeatedly until clean and fairly streak free) then following the directions works well. The primer can be scatched off pretty easily until it has had a few days to harden. Gradually it takes much more than a fingernail to get through it. You can etch before priming..... you can scratch the hell out of the parts with scotchbrite, emery cloth, a rock from the nearby streambed, whatever. But until the primer itself is tough, it can be pulled off the surface. Try giving it more time if you can. Dred ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Olechowski To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:58 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Hi All, Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to go from here. The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? AJ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Date: 6/30/2007 3:10 PM ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:15 PM PST US From: Arthur Olechowski Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Dino, I scuffed with 3M scotchbrite, degreased, rinsed then alumiprep'd and rinsed again then alodined and rinsed again allowed to dry overnight and then primed. I think the problem was the amount of primer applied was to thick with high humidity. do not archive AJ Dino Bortolin wrote: I'm no expert on this, but it sounds like a surface preparation problem to me. I just zinc chromated the inside of my rudder trim tab yesterday. I scuffed the surface with a Scotchbrite pad, washed it with warm water and lemon-scented dish soap, and rinsed it with hot water. Didn't use any solvents. Let it air dry and brushed the chromate on with a disposable sponge brush. Then attempted to mow the lawn (realized I didn't have gas, didn't feel like going out to buy any!) and came back 30 minutes later. At that point it was dry enough that I was able to clamp the piece in my brake and form the trim tab without any coming off the surface. Dino Bortolin 601XL plans/Corvair On 7/1/07, Arthur Olechowski wrote: Hi All, Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some advise on where to go from here. The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what may have caused this and what I should do now? AJ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:33 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time Hi Bill, I guess I am jumping to conclusions on this subject. I don't think you can do any dual instruction in your new plane until the phase 1 flight testing is complete. Before that time only the necessary crew (i.e. the PIC) is allowed to fly in the plane. If this is true then you can't do the transition in your own plane and also do some of the flight testing. I also learned from the EAA insurance outfit that they want 601 flight time for me (perhaps 5 hours?) before they will cover me flying my own plane. That is funny since I have many hours flying much more difficult planes than that. Still, I must travel to California or elsewhere for a checkout in some Zodiac before I can be covered flying in my plane. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 10:01 AM 7/1/2007, you wrote: > >Paul- > No, I don't expect him to fly off the time. I do intend to fly > my own plane-don't have any choice. He can make sure the ship is > airworthy before I take it up. Better than doing everything on my > own, although there are tons of people that have. > No one was available to give dual to the Wright brothers. More > than that, I still can't concieve how their mechanic built an > aircraft engine using only a drill press and a hacksaw!! > Remember, this is EXPERIMENTAL aviation. >Bill Naumuk >HDS Fuse/Corvair >Townville, Pa ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:48 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Primer adhesion Hi AJ, I have spent a lot of time and not a small amount of money researching what paints will work on aluminum that I can get locally and don't cost the earth to buy. The problem with aluminum is the oxide that forms almost instantly prevents paint from sticking. I have two different solutions - one for the interior paint and one for exterior. For the interior I wanted flat grey paint. This wound up being self etching primer from SEM. I prep the surface with fairly coarse sand paper (100 or 150 grit?) and clean it with lacquer thinner before painting. This sticks like glue. For contrast on the interior paint, I like flat black enamel in rattle cans. To get this to work well with the self etching primer, I need to use an additional primer in between the self etching primer and top coat. Without the intermediate primer, the top coat nearly lifts the self etching primer right off the aluminum. For the exterior I am using the same self etching primer along with epoxy primer and finally acrylic enamel. The last two products are from PPG. This is less expensive than the popular urethane enamel and is less toxic too. Pricing for the self etching primer at my local professional paint store runs about $12 for a rattle can and $22 for a quart. The PPG epoxy primer and acrylic enamel run an average of around $100 per gallon when you include the required hardeners and thinners. For aircraft steel parts, the epoxy primer works incredibly well directly on the steel. I don't think it needs a top coat if the appearance isn't important like on the flap torque tubes. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage At 08:58 AM 7/1/2007, you wrote: >Hi All, >Yesterday I finished priming my 701 rudder skeleton with PTI Zinc >Oxide and I've experienced poor adhesion results. I need some >advise on where to go from here. >The only spray painting I've ever been exposed to is the type that >comes out of a spray can. I used an HVLP sprayer with the reducer >proportions as advised by PTI. The conditions in the shop was 70 >deg with 72% humidity. The primer is suppose dry tack free in 5 >minutes and it did but the fully cured in 30 minutes hasn't quite >happened yet. I've allowed it to cure overnight and the surface can >be chipped down to the chem-film with a fingernail. Any ideas what >may have caused this and what I should do now? > >AJ > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:55 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time The Cessna requires less force to move the yoke in the roll axis but has a slower response and lower roll rate and there's more motion required to get full deflection. Full stick deflection on my Zodiac requires a little bit more force but there's nothing sluggish about the response. If you bring a Cessna in a little too fast, it doesn't want to stop flying until you bleed off that extra speed. If you try to force it to touch down, it's easy to bounce it back into the air. If I bring my Zodiac in a little too fast, I can ease the mains onto the runway then the nose comes down and it'll stay solidly on the ground. Or I can hold it in the flare and let it float until the speed bleeds off before touching down. Being a lot lighter than a Cessna, it seems that the extra speed bleeds off quicker, giving less float. Bill Naumuk wrote: > > Bryan- > I'm sorry I already killed this post with "D n a". This is > the type of information vital to builders getting ready to fly. Very > good description of control inputs. > Three interesting things- > 1. "Cessnas require less control force in the roll axis." I always > thought rolling a Cessna was like pushing a concrete block through > Jello. Very mushy. > 2. The Zenith is very sensitive in the pitch axis. This has been > cited numerous times by other builders. PIO is a distinct possibility > and new pilots should be on the lookout for this. I know this is my > biggest concern. > 3. "The Zenith has little tendency to float". This statement > surprises me. I would suspect otherwise, but am glad to hear of it. > Matt, maybe you could archive this one? > Bill Naumuk > HDS Fuse/Corvair > Townville, Pa > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" > > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 1:27 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 dual time > > >> >> >> There are some differences in flight characteristics between the >> Cessnas and the Zodiac. The Cessnas are more stable in roll and tend >> to have a lower rate of roll even though they require a little less >> control force in the roll axis. My Zodiac has a pretty good roll rate >> and tends to stay at whatever roll attitude you put it in. My zodiac >> is also more sensitive in the pitch axis, especially when at aft CG >> limit. >> >> Unlike a Cessna, my Zodiac will not lift off on its own, I have to >> apply some back pressure to rotate and lift off. The touchdown is a >> bit different also. Even if I come in a bit too fast, my Zodiac has >> very little tendency to "float", and as soon as the mains touch the >> ground, the plane is done flying and will stick right to the runway. I >> can't remember ever bouncing it and I've made a few pretty firm >> landings with it. I think the Zodiac is easier to land in a crosswind >> than the Cessnas I used to fly. Overall, I didn't encounter any really >> surprising or scary flight characteristics with the Zodiac. >> >> I had about 300 total hours of flight time when I started flying my >> Zodiac. Most of that was in Cessna 150/152 and 172s. I only had about >> 3 hours in low wing aircraft. I also had a few recent hours in a >> Cutlass RG and, several years ago, a few hours in a Cardinal RG. I >> remember with the Cardinal that it wasn't hard to get into a pitch >> oscillation mode on short final. > > -- Bryan Martin Zenith 601XL N61BM Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:22 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "zenith-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Zenith-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Zenith-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/zenith-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Zenith-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Zenith-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Zenith-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Zenith-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Zenith ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:28 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.