---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/17/07: 53 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:04 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (William Dominguez) 2. 05:12 AM - Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah (LouB) 3. 05:57 AM - 6061-T6 Extrusion (Kevin L. Rupert) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah (Gig Giacona) 5. 06:41 AM - Re: 6061-T6 Extrusion (Gig Giacona) 6. 06:43 AM - Re: Trailering the 701 (T. Graziano) 7. 07:36 AM - Re: 701 Pitch Control Rod Installation (George Race) 8. 07:38 AM - Re: 701 Pitch Control Rod Installation (txpilot) 9. 07:44 AM - Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah (Chris Lewis) 10. 08:12 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (R.D.(Ron) Leclerc) 11. 08:16 AM - Re: First flight... not so good (hansriet) 12. 08:28 AM - Re: 701 stick & cutout (Zed Smith) 13. 08:36 AM - Re: 701 stick & cutout (Zed Smith) 14. 08:50 AM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Lee Thomas) 15. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah (LarryMcFarland) 16. 09:02 AM - Upper Engine Moutn fitting (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons)) 17. 09:09 AM - [Fw: Re: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah] (LarryMcFarland) 18. 09:44 AM - Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting (Gig Giacona) 19. 10:06 AM - Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting (Clyde Barcus) 20. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting (John Bolding) 21. 10:40 AM - Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah (ZodieRocket) 22. 11:07 AM - correction. (ZodieRocket) 23. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah (JG) 24. 01:37 PM - Re:Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (MaxNr@aol.com) 25. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting () 26. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting (Craig Payne) 27. 02:44 PM - How do you get off this list??? (ron hoskins) 28. 02:47 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Gig Giacona) 29. 02:49 PM - Re: How do you get off this list??? (Gig Giacona) 30. 03:05 PM - XL photo guide help (chris Sinfield) 31. 03:28 PM - Re: XL photo guide help (eddies) 32. 03:45 PM - Re: How do you get off this list??? (Southern Reflections) 33. 03:52 PM - Re: XL photo guide help () 34. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: How do you get off this list??? (Ron Hoskins) 35. 04:16 PM - Email Address Change (Paul Mulwitz) 36. 04:22 PM - Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting (Craig Payne) 37. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 38. 04:41 PM - Re: How do you get off this list??? (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 39. 04:42 PM - Re: How do you get off this list??? (Gary Boothe) 40. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: How do you get off this list??? (Craig Payne) 41. 04:53 PM - Re: XL photo guide help (Dingfelder) 42. 04:58 PM - Ways to track shared tools (lwinger) 43. 04:59 PM - Re: Re: How do you get off this list??? (LarryMcFarland) 44. 05:19 PM - ZAC Pneumatic Riveter (dfmoeller) 45. 06:03 PM - Re: XL photo guide help () 46. 06:03 PM - Re: ZAC Pneumatic Riveter (Kevin L. Rupert) 47. 06:11 PM - Re: XL photo guide help (Craig Payne) 48. 06:40 PM - Re: Ways to track shared tools (David Brooks) 49. 07:08 PM - nose gear questions (Skip Perry) 50. 07:54 PM - Re: nose gear questions (Craig Payne) 51. 08:16 PM - Re: Ways to track shared tools (Larry Winger) 52. 08:27 PM - Re: ZAC Pneumatic Riveter (robert stone) 53. 09:31 PM - Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (AB_Summit) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:10 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? (Chris Heintz) has specifically said (his mouth to my ears) the Corvair engine is too heavy for the 701. That does not mean it will not work but it is not a bolt on installation that the 912 engine is. Yes, I'll put my aspestose undies now cause I'll likely get flamed for that statement. You won't get flamed for this, at least not from me and I'm the one who mentioned the Corvair option. You are correct in the fact that right now the Corvair is not an bolt on installation for the 701. However, by the time he is ready to make an engine decision some time in the future, it might be a bolt on installation with several one already flying. In other words, is not an option now but might be a proven option in the future. My suggestion was for him to keep an eye in the development of the Corvair for the 701 that is currently underway. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah From: "LouB" Please fellows give me some input. I'm really interested in how you would compare these two plane. Thanks, Lou Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124313#124313 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:47 AM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Zenith-List: 6061-T6 Extrusion Guys , It's time to order some stuff. Does anybody have a total number of feet of the 6061-T6 extrusion (3/4"X3/4"X .125) that is needed for the 601XL and in what lengths should I buy it? I'd like to get it all at once so I only have to bite the bullet one time on shipping. Thanks, Kevin R. 601XL/ Corvair ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:36 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah From: "Gig Giacona" I'm a 601 not a 701 builder but if I were I'd go with the 701 because I wouldn't trust a company that would so obviously steal the fruits of anothers labor. If they are willing to steal designs I'd be concerned they'd steal my money as well. LouB wrote: > Please fellows give me some input. I'm really interested in how you would compare these two plane. > > Thanks, > Lou -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124329#124329 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 6061-T6 Extrusion From: "Gig Giacona" You might check the material list here... http://ch601.org/builder%20resources.htm klr12(at)psu.edu wrote: > Guys , > It's time to order some stuff. Does anybody have a total number of feet > of the 6061-T6 extrusion > (3/4"X3/4"X .125) that is needed for the 601XL and in what lengths > should I buy it? I'd like to get it all at once so I only have to bite > the bullet one time on shipping. > > Thanks, > > Kevin R. > > 601XL/ Corvair -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124330#124330 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:44 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Trailering the 701 For what it's worth. Reminds me of a story told by one of the participants at a Jabiru Maintenance Seminar on trailering his aircraft cross-country. At about 2 a.m. he was awakened in his motel by some State Troopers banging on the door. The were accompanied a by a bunch of smiling Civil Air Patrol Cadets. The ELT in his airplane had activated, probably from bumps in the road. The CAP finialy found him! Tony Graziano Zodiac XL/Jab; 262 hrs. ------------------- I am going to take a long vacation north into Canada and Alaska and would like to take my 701. Dose any one have any experience with trailering the 701 for extended time and over rough roads? Ive looked at the folding wing MOD from Zenith and Im not to sure its up to a trip like that. Your thoughts and experience on the subject would be appreciated. Thanks Rick ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:47 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Pitch Control Rod Installation Hi Dan: I have my tail feathers in place so thought I would go out and measure the "travel" of the elevator control rod for you. I do have my stabilizer limits set to the factory spec, cables in place, and stick in place and operating. >From stop to stop my control rod moves just under 120mm. When stick is forward, control rod end is almost perfectly even with the front skin of the vertical portion of the seat. When stick is fully back, control rod extends 117-118mm forward. In both extremes my stick does not contact the seat at either position. My clearance, with stick fully back, is about 10mm from touching the seat. Can take some quick pictures and forward if that would help. George ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Pitch Control Rod Installation From: "txpilot" Jon, Thanks for the reply. I was hoping for better news. It's a real pain trying to file down that seat front AFTER it's riveted to the cabin and tunnel. :x I think I'll need to recheck my dimensions. This is a fairly old kit and I did the cutout myself. The way it's looking, I may need to cut it down to the top of 7F11-8, the reinforcement plate. My only fear now is junk getting in that hole under the tunnel during flight. Thanks again for your help. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124344#124344 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah From: "Chris Lewis" While the Savannah kit is built in a state of the art facility with amazing craftsmanship, it's still a rip-off of the 701. In addition, the kit is ~50% more expensive. They do have the luxury of being more adaptive and have produced more models with different wing styles including a non-slatted wing with vortex generators. The upside is that the kit is more finished and has a shorter build time. The downside is that you are supporting someone who "borrowed" someone else's design and then has the audacity to compare themselves and their "improvements" to the 701 on their website. Look to CZAW for the right way to do it. They are no longer affiliated with ZAC in the US and brought 3 new designs (Mermaid, Parrot and SportCruiser) to market - none of which show any indication of being anything but a fresh design. Chris in Seattle -------- 701 Scratch Builder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124346#124346 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:42 AM PST US From: "R.D.(Ron) Leclerc" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Except for the spelling mistakes... well said Mark! Couldn't have said it better... R.D.(Ron) Leclerc Plans(Scrap) Builder CH701 Porsche Power Belted Redrive Winnipeg, MB Canada infow@mts.net 7/17/2007 10:11:22 AM -) -) -) Sorry group, I got long winded again. -) -) -) Hi Randy, I am sure by now you have read Matt's and Paul's -) differing responses, both have valaid points from their own -) perspective. -) -) For me my opinion is closer to Matt's, I see day in and day out -) that weither or not you're a pilot, both interested prospective -) builders ask the same questions. Both parties are interested in -) the specs and how it handles. Both are affected by appearance and -) building techniques. In other words, I have found that in most -) cases both types tend to do their homework. The only difference I -) see is how much I may have to explain to someone, it is easy to -) judge in the first few seconds if I have to explain what deheidral -) is or not. Then go from there, Preference be known, I typically -) love it when the interested party has their spouce along with -) them. Though some spouces are pilots ( very easy to spot) most are -) not and quite a few are being dragged to look at all the planes. -) This allows me a chance to explain everything to the spouce even -) if the husband is a pilot and oftentimes I can answer questions -) that someone is afraid to ask( afraid to look as if they are -) asking a dumb question) ( for the record there is no such thing in -) my books, if you don't know it then please ask). -) -) SO is not being a pilot a bad thing, not if your interested in a -) Zenith product, you all know our planes are docile enough to learn -) on and also so much fun that you will not outgrow redily. I know -) everyone associated with Zenith Kit aircrafts and I believe that -) each and every one involved is of the highest moral values. In -) fact not a single one of us is a salesman, we are all builders or -) flyers. Each and every one involved in Zenith aircraft that you -) see at the shows is working on planes when not at the shows. -) -) Many have built a Zenith aircraft and upon completion quite a few -) have even learned to fly in there very own plane. Many pilots have -) chosen to go the kiit aircraft route so they could afford to fly a -) lot more in a brand new plane instead of flyign the minium per -) year to keep their license in a 20-40 year old plane. However most -) pilots don't fly while buildign and need re-currency training when -) ready to fly again. -) -) No, I don't think it matters which way you proceed, go for the -) building and enjoy every aspect it has to offer. When it is -) complete then you are ready to transition into your new hobby of -) flying ! this approach makes more sense to me personally. To go -) out and spend 60hrs gettign a license just so you can mak ethe -) same decision on which plane is better for you that I believe you -) would have made before, I feel is a bit of a waste. -) -) Truly after you have built your own plane, if you desire a -) different model then I believe you didn't make a mistake the first -) time, you just enjoyed the building process too much and wish to -) do it again. However, now you have a brand new plane to fly until -) it is time for your engine and panel in your next project. -) -) Jump in, do your research, ask every question you can think of. -) Check out the companys background and ethics. But do it, don't -) wait till you have this ready or that ready, you will always find -) excuses to do something tomorrow. When tomorrow finally comes, -) will you look back and smile and tell your stories? Or will you -) rock and stew with your regrets. -) -) That is my only sales pitch, if you want to fly ASAP buy a QBK if -) you want to fly after a building adventure go with a kit. IF you -) can't afford it then just buy the plans and build what you can -) until you can afford a kit or you finished your plane from -) scratch. Just don't come up with excuses to put it off, I truly -) get saddened when I see an old timer come up to me in their -) electric scooters and tell me how sorry they are they never -) started. Don't let anyone tell you you can't or shouldn't do -) something. YOU can and you should if you want to. -) -) -) Mark Townsend -) Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. -) president@can-zacaviation.com -) www.can-zacaviation.com -) do not archive -) -----Original Message----- -) -) Hi everyone, -) -) I'm a new list member, my name is Randy and I live in Alberta, -) Canada. I was just wondering if it's realistic for a non-pilot to -) build a CH-701. -) -) I've always been interested in airplanes and aviation, and I -) started my private pilot licence training in 2005. I've got about -) 25 hours in a C172 and a Citabria. At that point I was in a major -) snowmobile accident and had to put my flight training on hold. I -) was off work and unable to walk for quite a while. In the mean -) time I lost my job because of my injuries, and my finances took a -) big hit. -) -) I'm finally to the point of being healthy enough to start flying -) again, but now I can't really afford it. I had to relocate to find -) another job, and now my mortgage is bigger and my wages are -) smaller, and the cost of flight training is higher in the area I -) am in (a C152 is $110/hr solo and $158/hr dual.) -) -) I can only afford to commit maybe a few hundred dollars a month to -) aviation, so I was thinking of building a CH-701 from plans, then -) when the plane is complete I would get either an ultralight permit -) or rec pilot permit to fly it. (Canadian ultralight rules are -) different than the US rules, a CH-701 can be flown in Canada with -) an ultralight permit, and the ultralight permit is a lot cheaper -) than a PPL.) I'd prefer a CH-801 but they don't sell plans for -) those. It might take me 5 or 10 years to build the plane, but then -) I'd have my own plane that I am intimately familiar with and it -) would be cheaper to maintain and operate than say a C150. For an -) engine I would look for a used Rotax 912. -) -) I've got quite a few metal working tools already, and I have some -) metal working and fabrication experience from snowmobiles. I've -) got a garage to work in as well. -) -) My plan would be to budget maybe $400 a month to the project, and -) I would split it up so that $200 would go into the airframe and -) $200 would go into the engine/instruments fund. -) -) The budget for the first few months would go into buying plans, -) buying a couple of the "Homebuilt Help" DVD's, building a work -) table, building a Dave Clay brake, buying some Clecoes and basic -) tools, and then in a few months I'd be ready to buy some rivets -) and aluminum and get to building. -) -) My questions are: -) -) Is this a realistic plan? -) Would 5 to 10 years be a realistic estimate of build time for a -) first timer building from plans? -) What would the finished costs be of a plans built CH-701 with a -) used 912 and basic VFR instruments? -) Is there somewhere (preferably in Canada) that I could go to get -) some dual time and maybe even an ultralight permit in a CH-701? -) -) Thanks in advance for all the help, -) Randy -) -) -) Read this topic online here: -) -) http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124160#124160 -) -) -) 7/15/2007 2:21 PM -) -) -) 7/15/2007 2:21 PM -) -) -) - The Zenith-List Email Forum - -) much much more: -) - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -) --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:19 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight... not so good From: "hansriet" According to the Zenith Air database Paul was flying with a Rotax 912 on board. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124354#124354 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:22 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 stick & cutout Have slept since cutting the hole in the seat front, but I did later cut it somewhat larger than the plans called for. As somebody mentioned, there is the possibility of loose junk finding a way to get into the hole. Three or four years ago another builder mentioned using a "boot" salvaged from the stick shift on a small automobile at a wrecking yard. It may have been the boot for the hand brake lever; I forget. As I recall he said the first attempt was not very satisfactory, and he got a different, larger, boot later. Seems that these boots were vinyl or rubberized canvas from some '80s model small car. He used a hose clamp around the stick and velcro on the seat front. Regards, Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:14 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 stick & cutout Have slept since cutting the hole in the seat front, but I did later cut it somewhat larger than the plans called for. As somebody mentioned, there is the possibility of loose junk finding a way to get into the hole. Three or four years ago another builder mentioned using a "boot" salvaged from the stick shift on a small automobile at a wrecking yard. It may have been the boot for the hand brake lever; I forget. As I recall he said the first attempt was not very satisfactory, and he got a different, larger, boot later. Seems that these boots were vinyl or rubberized canvas from some '80s model small car. He used a hose clamp around the stick and velcro on the seat front. Regards, Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:30 AM PST US From: "Lee Thomas" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Are you really building scrap or are you building from scratch. Lee Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.D.(Ron) Leclerc Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:12 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? Except for the spelling mistakes... well said Mark! Couldn't have said it better... R.D.(Ron) Leclerc Plans(Scrap) Builder CH701 Porsche Power Belted Redrive Winnipeg, MB Canada infow@mts.net 7/17/2007 10:11:22 AM -) -) -) Sorry group, I got long winded again. -) -) -) Hi Randy, I am sure by now you have read Matt's and Paul's -) differing responses, both have valaid points from their own -) perspective. -) -) For me my opinion is closer to Matt's, I see day in and day out -) that weither or not you're a pilot, both interested prospective -) builders ask the same questions. Both parties are interested in -) the specs and how it handles. Both are affected by appearance and -) building techniques. In other words, I have found that in most -) cases both types tend to do their homework. The only difference I -) see is how much I may have to explain to someone, it is easy to -) judge in the first few seconds if I have to explain what deheidral -) is or not. Then go from there, Preference be known, I typically -) love it when the interested party has their spouce along with -) them. Though some spouces are pilots ( very easy to spot) most are -) not and quite a few are being dragged to look at all the planes. -) This allows me a chance to explain everything to the spouce even -) if the husband is a pilot and oftentimes I can answer questions -) that someone is afraid to ask( afraid to look as if they are -) asking a dumb question) ( for the record there is no such thing in -) my books, if you don't know it then please ask). -) -) SO is not being a pilot a bad thing, not if your interested in a -) Zenith product, you all know our planes are docile enough to learn -) on and also so much fun that you will not outgrow redily. I know -) everyone associated with Zenith Kit aircrafts and I believe that -) each and every one involved is of the highest moral values. In -) fact not a single one of us is a salesman, we are all builders or -) flyers. Each and every one involved in Zenith aircraft that you -) see at the shows is working on planes when not at the shows. -) -) Many have built a Zenith aircraft and upon completion quite a few -) have even learned to fly in there very own plane. Many pilots have -) chosen to go the kiit aircraft route so they could afford to fly a -) lot more in a brand new plane instead of flyign the minium per -) year to keep their license in a 20-40 year old plane. However most -) pilots don't fly while buildign and need re-currency training when -) ready to fly again. -) -) No, I don't think it matters which way you proceed, go for the -) building and enjoy every aspect it has to offer. When it is -) complete then you are ready to transition into your new hobby of -) flying ! this approach makes more sense to me personally. To go -) out and spend 60hrs gettign a license just so you can mak ethe -) same decision on which plane is better for you that I believe you -) would have made before, I feel is a bit of a waste. -) -) Truly after you have built your own plane, if you desire a -) different model then I believe you didn't make a mistake the first -) time, you just enjoyed the building process too much and wish to -) do it again. However, now you have a brand new plane to fly until -) it is time for your engine and panel in your next project. -) -) Jump in, do your research, ask every question you can think of. -) Check out the companys background and ethics. But do it, don't -) wait till you have this ready or that ready, you will always find -) excuses to do something tomorrow. When tomorrow finally comes, -) will you look back and smile and tell your stories? Or will you -) rock and stew with your regrets. -) -) That is my only sales pitch, if you want to fly ASAP buy a QBK if -) you want to fly after a building adventure go with a kit. IF you -) can't afford it then just buy the plans and build what you can -) until you can afford a kit or you finished your plane from -) scratch. Just don't come up with excuses to put it off, I truly -) get saddened when I see an old timer come up to me in their -) electric scooters and tell me how sorry they are they never -) started. Don't let anyone tell you you can't or shouldn't do -) something. YOU can and you should if you want to. -) -) -) Mark Townsend -) Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. -) president@can-zacaviation.com -) www.can-zacaviation.com -) do not archive -) -----Original Message----- -) -) Hi everyone, -) -) I'm a new list member, my name is Randy and I live in Alberta, -) Canada. I was just wondering if it's realistic for a non-pilot to -) build a CH-701. -) -) I've always been interested in airplanes and aviation, and I -) started my private pilot licence training in 2005. I've got about -) 25 hours in a C172 and a Citabria. At that point I was in a major -) snowmobile accident and had to put my flight training on hold. I -) was off work and unable to walk for quite a while. In the mean -) time I lost my job because of my injuries, and my finances took a -) big hit. -) -) I'm finally to the point of being healthy enough to start flying -) again, but now I can't really afford it. I had to relocate to find -) another job, and now my mortgage is bigger and my wages are -) smaller, and the cost of flight training is higher in the area I -) am in (a C152 is $110/hr solo and $158/hr dual.) -) -) I can only afford to commit maybe a few hundred dollars a month to -) aviation, so I was thinking of building a CH-701 from plans, then -) when the plane is complete I would get either an ultralight permit -) or rec pilot permit to fly it. (Canadian ultralight rules are -) different than the US rules, a CH-701 can be flown in Canada with -) an ultralight permit, and the ultralight permit is a lot cheaper -) than a PPL.) I'd prefer a CH-801 but they don't sell plans for -) those. It might take me 5 or 10 years to build the plane, but then -) I'd have my own plane that I am intimately familiar with and it -) would be cheaper to maintain and operate than say a C150. For an -) engine I would look for a used Rotax 912. -) -) I've got quite a few metal working tools already, and I have some -) metal working and fabrication experience from snowmobiles. I've -) got a garage to work in as well. -) -) My plan would be to budget maybe $400 a month to the project, and -) I would split it up so that $200 would go into the airframe and -) $200 would go into the engine/instruments fund. -) -) The budget for the first few months would go into buying plans, -) buying a couple of the "Homebuilt Help" DVD's, building a work -) table, building a Dave Clay brake, buying some Clecoes and basic -) tools, and then in a few months I'd be ready to buy some rivets -) and aluminum and get to building. -) -) My questions are: -) -) Is this a realistic plan? -) Would 5 to 10 years be a realistic estimate of build time for a -) first timer building from plans? -) What would the finished costs be of a plans built CH-701 with a -) used 912 and basic VFR instruments? -) Is there somewhere (preferably in Canada) that I could go to get -) some dual time and maybe even an ultralight permit in a CH-701? -) -) Thanks in advance for all the help, -) Randy -) -) -) Read this topic online here: -) -) http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124160#124160 -) -) -) 7/15/2007 2:21 PM -) -) -) 7/15/2007 2:21 PM -) -) -) - The Zenith-List Email Forum - -) much much more: -) - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -) --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:10 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah Hi Lou, An original design has a source, a safe envelope and a parts supply with engineering backing to resolve problems. A close copy is flattery, not theft, but often lacks a good effort and backing. Desire to profit from original design occurs in everything today. The copy usually lacks a parts system, good engineering support or good documentation. I would look at the Savanna as an effort to copy and improve part of the design, but be very skeptical of the motives and product value of the Savanna for obviously having too closely copied design features. That suggests that theres a profit only motive. Chris Heintzs work is an influence on all the LSA aircraft much to his credit, but be careful of the close copy offerings. What other good names in aircraft design do you associate with the Savanna? That's your answer. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com LouB wrote: > > Please fellows give me some input. I'm really interested in how you would compare these two plane. > > Thanks, > Lou > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:05 AM PST US From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons) Subject: Zenith-List: Upper Engine Moutn fitting Hey List, I've been out coaching the daughters sofball team since the end of February. I finally get to get back to the garagea and visit my freind the airplane. Sheeze! Long season!! I am talking in regards to the Upper engine mount fitting. What my drwing shows for the part 6B5 4 does not even look like what I was sent. (Kit!) As I looked through my manual and the updated one, the following picture looks like what I have. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-b-11b.pdf (Page 6 at the bottom) I also dont see the update in the drawing update list unless I overlooked it. When did they cahnge the shape of the upper mount? So, If I read this picture correctly, I will have to drill my hole for the bolt, weld the bolt to the bracket and then secure it to the Longeron with 3 bolts. Am I correct? Can anyone shed some light on the subject. Do not archive -- Thanks, Rich Simmons
Hey List,
 
I've been out coaching the daughters sofball team since the end of February. I finally get to get back to the garagea and visit my freind the airplane. Sheeze! Long season!!
 
I am talking in regards to the Upper engine mount fitting. What my drwing shows for the part 6B5 4 does not even look like what I was sent. (Kit!) As I looked through my manual and the updated one, the following picture looks like what I have. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-b-11b.pdf (Page 6 at the bottom)
 
I also dont see the update in the drawing update list unless I overlooked it. When did they cahnge the shape of the upper mount?
 
So, If I read this picture correctly, I will have to drill my hole for the bolt, weld the bolt to the bracket
 and then secure it to the Longeron with 3 bolts.
 
Am I correct? 
 
Can anyone shed some light on the subject.
 
Do not archive
 
--
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:21 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: [Fwd: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah] Lou, Read this and decide, http://www.ch701.com/savanna/Savanna.pdf Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting From: "Gig Giacona" I switched to the new bracket after I had installed the original so the holes were already in the firewall. I just replaced the brackets with the new ones and used the holes as guides for the holes I needed to drill. It obviously worked because the WW engine mount went on with very little problem. You don't have to weld the bolts in. That was per Roger at Zenith. That is done to make it easier to remove them later. Since I'm going to have access behind the panel and I don't weld I went the no weld route. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124376#124376 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:04 AM PST US From: "Clyde Barcus" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Upper Engine Moutn fitting Rich, I bought the latest rev after I talked to Caleb, the newest version has a tab for the canopy. I think that might be what you see on the drawings. Clyde Barcus 601 XL, Continental Powered Wings, Tail & Engine Complete Working on Fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Simmons To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 11:01 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Upper Engine Moutn fitting Hey List, I've been out coaching the daughters sofball team since the end of February. I finally get to get back to the garagea and visit my freind the airplane. Sheeze! Long season!! I am talking in regards to the Upper engine mount fitting. What my drwing shows for the part 6B5 4 does not even look like what I was sent. (Kit!) As I looked through my manual and the updated one, the following picture looks like what I have. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-b-11b.pdf (Page 6 at the bottom) I also dont see the update in the drawing update list unless I overlooked it. When did they cahnge the shape of the upper mount? So, If I read this picture correctly, I will have to drill my hole for the bolt, weld the bolt to the bracket and then secure it to the Longeron with 3 bolts. Am I correct? Can anyone shed some light on the subject. Do not archive -- Thanks, Rich Simmons ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:42 AM PST US From: "John Bolding" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting If you weld the bolts in I wonder what you do to the strength of a Grade 5 or 8 bolt?? Probably not anything to get worked up over. John You don't have to weld the bolts in. That was per Roger at Zenith. That is done to make it easier to remove them later. Since I'm going to have access behind the panel and I don't weld I went the no weld route. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:49 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah First off, in my last post I mentioned ethics of a company. ICP ( the makers of the Savannah) used to be the European manufacturer and distributor of the Chris Heintz design line of aircraft. The North American dealer for ICP refuses to admit that the Savannah is anything like the CH701 ( though many parts are interchangable) rather that the 701 is a copy of the Storch! It's like saying that your plane has a rudder so it must be a copy of Cessna. PLEASE, design idea's and evolution are completely different then stealing from a designers blueprints. The Skykits rep has a comparison of the Savannah to the 701. The comparison is using an old CH701 kit that had no CNC and just a starting of photo walkthrough manuals. Moreover, I believe that the builder of that kit was unable to even finish building, while at the same time a 14 yr old girl was capable of building a 701 to completion by herself, this may speak volumes to some, and call into speculation the actual comparison used on the Dealers Website. Zenith has the highest completion rate of first time builders, more then any other kit manufacturer. The plans and manuals are written in English, not converted from Italian. If you think that sometimes the English manuals had hiccups, I have heard horror stories of the Savannahs manuals, but that was some time ago and I believe they are better now. The previous owners of Flypass had built several 701's to flying state, but when they tried to build a Savannah they told stories of mis-alignment and poor workmanship and even the plans were not in English for the most part. However, that was 4 years ago and I am sure that all those problems have been corrected by ICP. Now the 701 is all pre-drilled flat skins and all parts formed for thousands of dollars less then the Savannah kit. Also with the DVD's being offered by Homebuilthelp.com you can actually walkthrough your building process while watching Jon build his 701, this is better then any cooking show. The 701 is manufactured in America and has a far better reaching support network including this list! Plus there are thousands of CH701's flying, just check out the Zenith website, heck there are more 701's flying in just Ontario then all of North America. I do not like to talk ill of any competitor, but I have a huge personal problem with the North American dealer and his ethics. The rhetoric that he spouts at shows is disgraceful and unbecoming in my opinion. In fact, at one show a fellow went into the Savannah big top and unknowingly said that it was a nicely painted 701. (I felt sorry for the fellow as he really did not even know about the Savannah and thought he actually found the 701 at the show.) The fellow attending the tent said "Quote" "Sir calling my plane a 701 is like me calling your wife a whore" The poor chap found our booth shortly afterwards and told me directly, he was really upset and angry. I cannot say if it is true or not I can only relate what the gent told me, but I never questioned his statement. In your choice between the two planes, the CH701 is the original; it is the design of Chris Heintz and not a copy of anything. Chris built the blueprints from his own hands, did the math and did all the testing of the plane. You are given the freedom as a builder to make many of the decisions on engine choices and panel as you see fit. Zenith and Chris love to see the ingenuity of its builders to make the powerplant decisions. Not so for many other companies. If your decision is not for the CH701, then by all means it is your decision. However if you are looking for a copy of the 701 then please don't consider the Savannah, rather investigate the BRM HYPERLINK "http://www.planeperfection.com/"http://www.planeperfection.com/ I truly believe that the CH701 is the better plane and is the only one capable of living up to it's claimed STOL characteristics. At least the dealers at Plane Perfection are willing to state that the plane is a copy of the 701 (I have been told by the North American dealer for Savannah that the CAD files for the CNC were stolen from ICP, and he called them filthy names for stealing! And the Savannah is not a copy of the 701 from his mouth? GO FIGURE!!!) As stated, I only have a problem personally with the ethics of the Savannah people. The CH701 in my mind is a far better plane, you save thousands of dollars on the kit prices and don't forget for roughly the same prices of the Savannah you can have one of the Zenith Distributors build your 701 into a state of completion further then the Savannah kit. I will get off the soapbox now and I apologize for the mud, this is the only one that bugs me to death. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. president@can-zacaviation.com www.can-zacaviation.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Lewis Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:43 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah While the Savannah kit is built in a state of the art facility with amazing craftsmanship, it's still a rip-off of the 701. In addition, the kit is ~50% more expensive. They do have the luxury of being more adaptive and have produced more models with different wing styles including a non-slatted wing with vortex generators. The upside is that the kit is more finished and has a shorter build time. The downside is that you are supporting someone who "borrowed" someone else's design and then has the audacity to compare themselves and their "improvements" to the 701 on their website. Look to CZAW for the right way to do it. They are no longer affiliated with ZAC in the US and brought 3 new designs (Mermaid, Parrot and SportCruiser) to market - none of which show any indication of being anything but a fresh design. Chris in Seattle -------- 701 Scratch Builder Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124346#124346 7/16/2007 5:42 PM 7/16/2007 5:42 PM ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:18 AM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: Zenith-List: correction. heck there are more 701's flying in just Ontario then all of North America for the Sananna Mark 7/16/2007 5:42 PM 7/16/2007 5:42 PM ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:30 PM PST US From: "JG" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah We have three 701's and two Savannahs at our airfield, and we have flown and built and maintained them together so can make some comparisons based on experience. I have a detailed comparison half written up now, and will finish it off as soon as we get back. This morning two of the Savannahs and a 701 are leaving for a 3000 mile flying/camping trip into Central Australia - we'll tell you all about it when we get back. Tailwinds always, JG ----- Original Message ----- From: LouB To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:12 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith 701 compared with ICP Savannah Please fellows give me some input. I'm really interested in how you would compare these two plane. Thanks, Lou Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124313#124313 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:45 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: RE:Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? I so much wanted to keep my mouth shut on this but couldn't. Paul Mulwitz made some very good points and I mostly agree with him. I am on the other end of the scale; a retired pilot with varied experience and lots of hours. One of my current torments is the fuel system on my XL project. I have flown wildly different fuel systems over the years and tried to reject features of the worst and bring in features of the best. In my opinion. I took my ideas to my mentor. He is a Maintenance Inspector with the company I retired from. Decades of experience. He is a new private pilot and is building a Cub copy to ridiculously close tolerances. Goes overboard. He says my idea of a fuel system could work in a nuclear submarine. I went overboard. The point is that even with our different backgrounds, we need each other to center each other. I would think that any builder young or old should have someone that he can go to and have his crazy ideas set right. With enough people looking over your shoulder you should be fine. My friend suggests that I just copy the fuel system of the Piper Tomahawk that he learned in. Do not archive Bob XL/Lyc ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:20 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting Same here. All four motor mount bolts are not welded. Dred ---- John Bolding wrote: > If you weld the bolts in I wonder what you do to the strength of a Grade 5 or 8 bolt?? > Probably not anything to get worked up over. > John > > You don't have to weld the bolts in. That was per Roger at Zenith. That is done to make it easier to remove them later. Since I'm going to have access behind the panel and I don't weld I went the no weld route. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:22 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Upper Engine Moutn fitting > If you weld the bolts in I wonder what you do to the strength of a Grade 5 or 8 bolt?? Zenith used to just tack-weld the bolt head in two spots. Enough to keep the bolt from turning. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:35 PM PST US From: ron hoskins Subject: Zenith-List: How do you get off this list??? I have asked to be unsubscribed two times with no results. Could someone plesae tell me what the fuck to do to make it happen??? ZodieRocket wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } heck there are more 701's flying in just Ontario then all of North America for the Sananna Mark 7/16/2007 5:42 PM 7/16/2007 5:42 PM --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:49 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "Gig Giacona" Building an aircraft is an experience in itself. There is no need to be a pilot to do it. The only drawback I see to not being a pilot is that you might not have the motivation to finish that someone who is a pilot has. But that might not be the case. I do think that you should do as much research as possible first to make sure that the plane you decide to build fits with what you are going to do with it AFTER you get trained. Knowing what you need in a plane is tough enough when you've been flying it takes lots of study when you haven't. In the Zenith world that pretty much means if you want to do much cross country you might consider the 601 over the 701. If low and slow is your desire then the 701 beats out the 601. Good luck with what ever you choose. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124449#124449 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How do you get off this list??? From: "Gig Giacona" Strangly enough you go right back to where you subscribed in the first place. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124450#124450 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: XL photo guide help From: "chris Sinfield" Hi Gang Its late and I am revisiting an old area on the firewall but cant fing the photo gudes to check somthing. Where is the photo guide on the lower nose bearing instalation located?? Are they bolts with nuts or just bolts into the plastic??? Also Confirm the Stop Plate at the top of the nose strut should not be touching the horizontal plate when full extended but the steering arms should be centered fully down in the groove when the weight is off the ground. Ie the Strut Weight is taken from the botom nose bearing not the stop plate when airborne. Chris Zodiac XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124455#124455 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL photo guide help From: "eddies" Hi Chris, The bolts are threaded directly into the black plastic, you'll need to tap the thread first of course. Yes the weight is taken by the bottom bearing, there is a gap between the top stop plate and top firewall stiffener. Once you attach the bungie this will become immediately obvious. Eddie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124462#124462 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:12 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How do you get off this list??? Sound's to me you may be getting a good start ----- Original Message ----- From: ron hoskins To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 5:23 PM Subject: Zenith-List: How do you get off this list??? I have asked to be unsubscribed two times with no results. Could someone plesae tell me what the fuck to do to make it happen??? ZodieRocket wrote: heck there are more 701's flying in just Ontario then all of North America for the Sananna Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:17 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL photo guide help Chris, I didn't find anything in the photo assembly guide regarding the nose strut either. I just worked form the drawings and they indicate ANH4-6A bolts(drilled heads for safetty wire) through the aluminum support threaded into the plastic. There are four of them. You backdrill through the aluminum into the plastic at the correct drill size for a 1/4" x 28 tap. Once the holes are drilled, you enlarge the ones in the aluminum only to 1/4" diameter. I also found that AN4H-5A would be a better bolt size. These don't have to be extremely tight since they will be safety wired and function mostly in shear strength. There are two long bolts, AN3-42 , which clamp the two halves of the plastic block together and once again, the forward one should be AN3-41 since it doesn't have any aluminum channel to go through like the aft one does. There is a predjudice against more than four washers on a bolt. As for the upper stop plate, mine seems to be in contact at about the same point as the steering arms on the lower block. My nose strut seems tighter in the plastic block than it neeeds to be so I am wondering if it is okay to sand inside the plastic block or place a thin shim between the halves to lighten up the clamping force there. Dred ---- chris Sinfield wrote: > Where is the photo guide on the lower nose bearing instalation located?? > > Are they bolts with nuts or just bolts into the plastic??? ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:44 PM PST US From: "Ron Hoskins" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: How do you get off this list??? I have done that and find I can only subscribe. Sure would like some hel p... I have done that and find I can only subscribe. Sure would like so me help...
________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:56 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Zenith-List: Email Address Change As a frustrating solution to endless spam from "Email Spoofing" I have changed my email address. The new one is shown above. I would be happy to hear from any list members whenever you want a private communication to take place. Paul XL fuselage do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:17 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Upper Engine Moutn fitting The new style upper motor mount brackets are shown on the version of 6B6 dated 03/06. If ZAC is sending you parts that are newer than your plans see if you can get them to give you an up-to-date set of plans. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:19 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? The gut that started this said he had about 20 hours so he is a pilot just not licensed. If I am correct he just had money problem. Inso far as he is on this site I would say he has done his home work. I thus, vote to tell him to enjoy his work. Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:03 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: How do you get off this list??? In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:46:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, r56c1@yahoo.com writes: _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) Try the above site. DO NOT ARCHIVE ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:21 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: How do you get off this list??? You may have just stumbled upon a good way to get thrown off...guess you wouldn't mind that, either. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron hoskins Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 2:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: How do you get off this list??? I have asked to be unsubscribed two times with no results. Could someone plesae tell me what the fuck to do to make it happen??? ZodieRocket wrote: heck there are more 701's flying in just Ontario then all of North America for the Sananna _____ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:33 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: How do you get off this list??? That page can both subscribe and unsubscribe. 1. enter your e-mail address in the box just under "List Subscriptions" 2. click on "Find", not "Subscription" 3. click on "Execute" 4. check-marks should appear to the lists you are subscribed to. 5. clear the check-marks (by clicking on them) next to the lists you no longer want to subscribe to. If you don't want any Matronics list e-mail click on "Uncheck All". 6. the "Subscription" box should already be selected but if not click on it. 7. click on the "Execute" button again. I would be the first to admit that this is less than obvious. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:46 PM PST US From: "Dingfelder" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL photo guide help Dred, Wright or wrong, I made custom shims for mine and was able to get the proper fit. I also had to use a band sander on the tube to make it round again. It had warped a bit oval when welded. If this unit binds, it will of course adversly affect rudder operation. Lynn 601 XL / Corvair 70% ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL photo guide help > > Chris, I didn't find anything in the photo assembly guide regarding the > nose strut either. I just worked form the drawings and they indicate > ANH4-6A bolts(drilled heads for safetty wire) through the aluminum support > threaded into the plastic. There are four of them. You backdrill through > the aluminum into the plastic at the correct drill size for a 1/4" x 28 > tap. Once the holes are drilled, you enlarge the ones in the aluminum only > to 1/4" diameter. I also found that AN4H-5A would be a better bolt size. > These don't have to be extremely tight since they will be safety wired and > function mostly in shear strength. > > There are two long bolts, AN3-42 , which clamp the two halves of the > plastic block together and once again, the forward one should be AN3-41 > since it doesn't have any aluminum channel to go through like the aft one > does. There is a predjudice against more than four washers on a bolt. > > As for the upper stop plate, mine seems to be in contact at about the same > point as the steering arms on the lower block. > > My nose strut seems tighter in the plastic block than it neeeds to be so I > am wondering if it is okay to sand inside the plastic block or place a > thin shim between the halves to lighten up the clamping force there. > > Dred > > ---- chris Sinfield wrote: > Where is the > photo guide on the lower nose bearing instalation located?? >> >> Are they bolts with nuts or just bolts into the plastic??? > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Ways to track shared tools From: "lwinger" Building an airplane is all about the tools we get to collect in the process. What hurts is having to buy a metric widget to ream one hole or a pneumatic whatsit to drive a solid rivet. >From time to time I see emails from list members who are willing to loan their specialty tools for the cost of postage. That's the spirit I really appreciate about this list. The problem is that those emails are buried in archives all over the Matronics list. I have two questions: 1) How can we bring together information in one location regarding all the "loaner" tools that are available, including their present location and projected availability? I know that a "sticky" on the Matronics Zenith List homepage could work, but there are probably other more efficient or elegant solutions. 2) What tools are floating out there right now that are available? I'll start the ball rolling by offering my recently purchased 100 degree countersink / microstop combination and 6.4mm chucking reamer to the next builder tackling the 601XL bellcrank aileron (or comparable part on the 701/801/etc.) -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA 601XL/Corvair from scratch Control surfaces and wing spars complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124486#124486 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:43 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: How do you get off this list??? Hi Ron, Go to subscribe page and remove any check marks for items you don't want to receive and you'll be un-subscribed. Do not archive Ron Hoskins wrote: > I have done that and find I can only subscribe. Sure would like some > help... > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: ZAC Pneumatic Riveter From: "dfmoeller" I just received the ZAC pneumatic riveter and am having some troubles. The unit want to slip down the mandrel on the initial pull. Following that, the mandrel is locked in place in the slipped position, and I have to cut the rivet off and take the unit partially apart to punch the mandrel out of the jaws. I did a search on previous messages regarding the riveter and found that the prevailing advice deals with mucked up innards keeping the riveter jaws from grabbing the mandrel. In those cases, the advice is to give it a couple drops of oil and that seems to cure that problem. I'm having a similar problem, but this one is brand new and squeaky clean. I've placed a couple drops of marvel mystery oil in the unit. I've not installed the handle regulator as I wanted to get a feel for the required pressure at the compressor gauge before I installed the handle regulator. I've tried all different air pressures. It was working on a few practice rivets yesterday, but now, this evening, all it wants to do is slip on the initial pull. Anybody else have a problem on the initial pull like this? What am I doing wrong? Doug Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124488#124488 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:55 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL photo guide help Thanks Lynn. I was primarily concerned about having stiff rudder movement. I'll shim the lower block until it feels easy to turn. Dred Do Not Archive ---- Dingfelder wrote: > > Dred, > Wright or wrong, I made custom shims for mine and was able to > get the proper fit. I also had to use a band sander on the tube to make it > round again. It had warped a bit oval when welded. If this unit binds, it > will of course adversly affect rudder operation. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:55 PM PST US From: "Kevin L. Rupert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZAC Pneumatic Riveter Doug, I had similar problems with mine. In my case, 1 of the 2 little wedge shaped grippers (jaws) inside the nose piece had broken. I had an old Craftsman hand riveter laying around so I cannibalized it for the grippers and put them in the new riveter. That solved my problem. Kevin R. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:48 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL photo guide help I searched long and hard through the photo assembly guides for some shots of the nose gear V-block. Never did find one. The only mention of this in the plans that I could find was on 6G2. On the 08/05 revision the upper left corner says "bolt pattern see drawing 6B8-9. 4 holes tapped". The lower right corner says "AN4H-5A (4 req'd) 2 bolts per side, safety together". I didn't want to drill all the way through the block and leave a hole on the upper side that would hold dirt, water, etc. So I drilled blind holes on a drill press. This would be hard to do with a hand drill as the bit really catches on the nylon. This means you have to tap blind holes. The way that mine laid out the two rear holes were in the full thickness of the block. So I was able to drill these holes deeper than the bolt's length and use a conventional 1/4-28 fine tap. But there wasn't enough thickness to do this on the two forward holes. Here you need a blind tap. Three ways to get one: buy (expensive and hard-ish to find), break the tip off of a conventional tap (mine came in a two-pack) or cut groves in a 1/4-28 bolt with a fine cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool (picture attached). I've attached a picture of the results from Lance Gringell's plane. Scott Laughlin (I think) took a different approach. He drill the holes all the way through the blocks and inserted the bolts from the top. He countersunk the holes on the top so that bolt heads were below the surface of the V. Then he just used nyloc nuts on the bottom. I think he used the holes as grease cups. A few other points: 1. In order to get my nose gear tube as parallel to the firewall as possible I had to butt the back of the V-block against the firewall. Since I pulled the bottom three rivets on the firewall gear stiffener U channel from the inside of the plane I had to drill three clearance holes in the back of the V-block for the stubs of the rivets. A digital level makes it easy to see how parallel the tube is to the firewall. 2. The gap between the horizontal steel tube that retains the bungee (6G2-2) and the nose wheel tube is very small (2 mm?). And the bungee wants to pull those two pieces together. If there is too much accumulated error in the firewall parts the horizontal tube scrapes on the nose gear tube. That the way my kits was when I acquired it. Luckily (?) I rebuilt the old-style firewall with the new-style stiffeners and was able to correct this. 3. The cross tube on the nose gear was not perfectly parallel to the nose gear axle. Before I drilled the hole in the gear U channel that receives the long horizontal bolt through the V-block I made sure the axle was square. I did this by clamping the cross-tube into the V and inserting a long rod through the axle holes. With the rod centered I measured the distance of the ends from the rudder's pivot hole (picture attached). To know where to drill holes in the U channel which lined up with the existing hole in the V-block I pre-built a pair of "blinders" or transfer gauges. See image 204 attached. Of course you have to do this before you drill the holes for the four bolts that enter the V block from the bottom. In theory the cross tube is not in the V when the plan is on the ground as the engine's weight stretches the bungee and lifts the tube out of the V. But I have seen planes on the ground with the tube in the V. Maybe it lifts out when the plane is loaded with people, etc. But lining things up does ensure that your nose wheel fairing will be true in flight with your feet off the rudder pedals. I refuse to say how many tries it took me to get all this right. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:22 PM PST US From: "David Brooks" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ways to track shared tools I love the fact that this is such a great community or people that they are willing to share expensive tools as well as experience and advice. What did we all do before the Internet came along? This sounds like a pretty simple web-app that could be hosted just about anywhere. I am not a professional web-developer (Windows C++ apps are more my thing) but I do know my way around PHP scripting and simple databases. I have a domain registered that already has all this stuff (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl, PHP, etc.) already running for my own play apps and self-education. (OK, yes, I know, get a life, and I am ready for the geek jokes.) I would be happy to start collecting ideas and requirements and playing around with pulling something together. I imagine that it would be something like a cross between a virtual library and a blog. Here's a start: - Anyone could add a new tool to the list of available tools, potentially with pictures, descriptions, etc. - People could then queue up and add their names (and e-mail addresses?) to a list of who's next on the borrow list. (Should the owner of the tool have the ability to approve the borrowers?) - I would like to add a way for 'borrowers' to add comments, suggestions, tips, maybe even pictures to a tool page (perhaps in Blog form?) as time goes on - Each tool would have to have a "who has it", "who owns it" as well as the list of future borrowers - Should we track the list of past borrowers? We would want to think a little about how much personal information we want to store and expose in the app. Certainly e-mail addresses would be OK - nothing I could possibly do would make any e-mail addresses more 'exposed' then they are on the yahoo group. I think that it wouldn't be a bad idea that we have some sense of approved membership just to keep non-list members from posting to the app. (I wouldn't expect that this app would be the target of a whole lot of spamming and hacking, but just the same, it pays to maintain some level of control.) I think it is also important to keep this as a tracking utility, not a controlling utility. The owner of the tool should always maintain control of the tool. Anyway, if there is enough interest in this idea then let me know and feel free to start flinging ideas around. Oh, and let the geek jokes begin... Dave On 7/17/07, lwinger wrote: > > > Building an airplane is all about the tools we get to collect in the > process. What hurts is having to buy a metric widget to ream one hole or a > pneumatic whatsit to drive a solid rivet. > > >From time to time I see emails from list members who are willing to loan > their specialty tools for the cost of postage. That's the spirit I really > appreciate about this list. The problem is that those emails are buried in > archives all over the Matronics list. > > I have two questions: > > 1) How can we bring together information in one location regarding all the > "loaner" tools that are available, including their present location and > projected availability? I know that a "sticky" on the Matronics Zenith List > homepage could work, but there are probably other more efficient or elegant > solutions. > > 2) What tools are floating out there right now that are available? > > I'll start the ball rolling by offering my recently purchased 100 degree > countersink / microstop combination and 6.4mm chucking reamer to the next > builder tackling the 601XL bellcrank aileron (or comparable part on the > 701/801/etc.) > > -------- > Larry Winger > Tustin, CA > 601XL/Corvair from scratch > Control surfaces and wing spars complete > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124486#124486 > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:39 PM PST US From: "Skip Perry" Subject: Zenith-List: nose gear questions Strangely enough, I am also at that point. I have put everything together and when I check the freedom of the nose strut it is very free until I put the bungee on. It then becomes almost impossible to move. I do not have the engine hung yet and I assume with that weight some of the friction with the top stop plate will be eliminated things will be freed up??? Do any of you have suggestions on this? Skip Perry - 601XL DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of eddies Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:25 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL photo guide help Hi Chris, The bolts are threaded directly into the black plastic, you'll need to tap the thread first of course. Yes the weight is taken by the bottom bearing, there is a gap between the top stop plate and top firewall stiffener. Once you attach the bungie this will become immediately obvious. Eddie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124462#124462 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:31 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: nose gear questions > It then becomes almost impossible to move. Is the hole in the upper "shelf" slightly larger than the hole in the upper bearing? In other words does the nose tube ride on the nyloil (as it should) or the aluminum? Also is your nose gear tube painted where it rubs on the upper and lower bearings? That can also add a lot of friction. And (as I mentioned in my last post) is there a gap between the horizontal bungee "pin" and the nose gear tube? There should be. It is hard to get to but try slipping a piece of paper between the two to check for a gap. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:46 PM PST US From: "Larry Winger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ways to track shared tools Hey Dave, No geek jokes from me! This is precisely the kind of thing I was hoping would emerge. Before you go to the trouble of writing an app, you might want to wait a few days to see if there is already an existing solution that we've all missed. If not, I personally hope you will go for it. Personally, I don't have any problem with the past, present and future borrowers being listed with their email addresses. Your idea of a blog to accompany the tool would help us pass on tips and techniques. That would be very helpful. Larry Winger Tustin, CA Plans-building 601XL/Corvair ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:54 PM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZAC Pneumatic Riveter If the Pneumatic riveter came with your kit from Zenith and does not work properly, why not just return it to them for a replacement. If I remember right the riveter I received with my XL kit was a little over $80.00 and should work right. Tracy Stone ----- Original Message ----- From: "dfmoeller" Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:18 PM Subject: Zenith-List: ZAC Pneumatic Riveter > > I just received the ZAC pneumatic riveter and am having some troubles. > The unit want to slip down the mandrel on the initial pull. Following > that, the mandrel is locked in place in the slipped position, and I have > to cut the rivet off and take the unit partially apart to punch the > mandrel out of the jaws. > > I did a search on previous messages regarding the riveter and found that > the prevailing advice deals with mucked up innards keeping the riveter > jaws from grabbing the mandrel. In those cases, the advice is to give it > a couple drops of oil and that seems to cure that problem. I'm having a > similar problem, but this one is brand new and squeaky clean. > > I've placed a couple drops of marvel mystery oil in the unit. I've not > installed the handle regulator as I wanted to get a feel for the required > pressure at the compressor gauge before I installed the handle regulator. > I've tried all different air pressures. It was working on a few practice > rivets yesterday, but now, this evening, all it wants to do is slip on the > initial pull. > > Anybody else have a problem on the initial pull like this? What am I > doing wrong? > > Doug > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124488#124488 > > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation? From: "AB_Summit" Thanks for all the replies, it gives me a lot to think about. I went ahead and ordered the DVD's "Scratchbuilding Basics" and "Metalworking 101" from Homebuilt Help this evening so I can learn more about the building process and the tools and techniques required. I'm also going to start scrounging for material to build a work table and a Dave Clay brake. I figure even if I don't commit to building an airplane I can always use another work bench and the brake would come in handy as well. Once I have the DVD's and a table and brake, I will save up for a set of plans. I think I will ease into the process by attempting to scratch build a rudder and then decide if the building process is for me. If I decide not to build I can always sell the plans and DVD's and not be out too much money. Thanks again for all the replies, I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124514#124514 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.