Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:26 AM - Re: More torque wrench (David Downey)
2. 04:16 AM - Re: Pucker Factor (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
3. 04:21 AM - Re: Re: WW 601 Fuel and Ign System Parts list (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
4. 05:18 AM - Re: More torque wrench (ashontz)
5. 05:46 AM - Re: AMD Patriot (jsight)
6. 08:38 AM - 115mm flanging die needed (lwinger)
7. 09:06 AM - Re: More torque wrench (DanielBK)
8. 09:10 AM - Re: More torque wrench (ashontz)
9. 11:58 AM - Fw: Pucker Factor (wade jones)
10. 12:26 PM - Re: 115mm flanging die needed (Randy L. Thwing)
11. 02:09 PM - Re: 601XL fuel sender (AlanSmith)
12. 03:29 PM - form blocks (Jerry Hey)
13. 03:37 PM - Re: form blocks (wade jones)
14. 04:03 PM - Re: 115mm flanging die needed (Larry Winger)
15. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: More torque wrench (Southern Reflections)
16. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: More torque wrench (Dave Austin)
17. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: More torque wrench (LarryMcFarland)
18. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: More torque wrench (David Downey)
19. 07:40 PM - Re: form blocks (kevinbonds)
20. 08:04 PM - closing wing (Carlos Sa)
21. 09:52 PM - Off topic - Two killed in blast at Rutan rocket site in California (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
no reason for flames. Dead weight testing is one of the most stable methods known
(as long as the reference is accurate). Just make sure that the socket is not
off perpendicular and that there is no applied force to keep it that way.
do not archive
Mention was made earlier as to accuracy of various torque wrenches.
Some years ago a field mechanic for Caterpillar told me that their wrenches were
tested occasionally.
Said they had, and most larger Cat distributors also had, a real test fixture for
this purpose.
When they were in the field and were in doubt, or just wanted to check one, they
clamped a known good one in a vise and used a double-female very short "extension"
to attach the unknown to the known and pulled on the free handle until
the known read full scale....then checked the reading on the suspect wrench.
Said they could check at any point across the range of a given wrench.
This method may not be suitable for NASA, but he swears it works very well for
checking (not calibrating), provided a known "good" wrench is used.
Let the flames begin.
Regards to all,
Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc/do not archive.
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
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| Subject: | Re: Pucker Factor |
I used 025 and not a pucker one plus it is a lot stiffer.
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| Subject: | Re: WW 601 Fuel and Ign System Parts list |
I had my hoses made local and put fire sleeve over them but I would wait
until you need them to order them and be sure you only get what you need.
Jeff
In a message dated 7/25/2007 11:26:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wr.giacona@suddenlink.net writes:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AER%2DFCA0620&N
=700+300079+4294906619+115&autoview=sku
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
No flames. Actually, the metric vs English thing was an actual incident that occurred
and caused them to lose a 150 million dollar Mars lander a few years back.
I'm sure the project plan stuff is pretty accurate too. LOL
do not archive
[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]no reason for flames. Dead weight testing is
one of the most stable methods known (as long as the reference is accurate).
Just make sure that the socket is not off perpendicular and that there is no applied
force to keep it that way.
do not archive
Mention was made earlier as to accuracy of various torque wrenches.
Some years ago a field mechanic for Caterpillar told me that their wrenches were
tested occasionally.
Said they had, and most larger Cat distributors also had, a real test fixture for
this purpose.
When they were in the field and were in doubt, or just wanted to check one, they
clamped a known good one in a vise and used a double-female very short "extension"
to attach the unknown to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125747#125747
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NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote:
> Wow, climbs 11,000 feet per minute, what a rocket!!!!!!!!
>
LOL! Yeah, that would be quite an aircraft! :-)
I've corrected the typo.
--------
<a href="http://aviationworld.blogspot.com">Aviation Blog</a>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125753#125753
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| Subject: | 115mm flanging die needed |
Thanks to a good building buddy, I already have two sets of flanging dies (65mm
and 95mm). I'm missing the larger 115mm dies for my wing ribs.
Is there anyone on the list with a 115mm set that I could use for a few weeks?
I'll be glad to pay shipping both ways. Thanks.
Feel free to contact me off list.
Do not archive.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
601XL/Corvair from scratch
Control surfaces and wing spars complete
Making wing ribs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125769#125769
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
ashontz wrote:
> ... I guess a better method would be to clamp the torque wrench perpendicular
to the floor and then add a given weight (say 80 lbs) to the handle of the torque
wrench at the 1 foot mark on the handle from the center of the socket fitting
and see that the wrench reads 80ft-lbs. ...
>
Actually, this would be a terrible method that is commonly thought to be a good
method. Think vectors. Or for a practical example, think of two extremes, then
deduce the situation between extremes. For the example, we'll use an accurate
and new wrench, fresh from the factory calibration bench. We'll use a special
wrench that allows 90 of movement between zero and max torque for no better
reason than it makes for an easier demonstration of principle.
If we begin with the setup suggested, with the business end in the vice, everything
true, level and orthogonal, the handle horizontal, and no weight attached,
we get an accurate reading of zero lb-ft (not "ft-lb", a common error). That's
the first extreme.
Next, apply a whole bunch of weight, such that the handle swings down to a near
vertical position. The reading on the wrench will be considerably less than
the weight applied. Why so? Because the weight is pulling straight down, not
tangent to the arc of the handle swing. Only force applied on a tangent to the
arc (perpendicular to the handle shaft) produces torque. We lost that perpendicularity
with the very first movement of the handle, thus when we reach this
near vertical condition, most of the weight is simply pulling straight out
on the handle. That is the second extreme.
It's self evident that the error produced by this method is minor at first and
escalates the further we swing the handle. A tip though: The progression is
not linear.
Three solutions come to mind that would allow us to use a dead weight test. One
would be to dust off a geometry text and compute the effect at any angular displacement.
Sines, cosines, arctangents, etc. If that makes us groan, an alternative
would be to simply draw the vectors (lines showing direction and scale)
and measure the resultant. The third solution would be the dirty fingernails
approach (perfectly appropriate): Build our clamping rig rig such that we
clamp the wrench as before,on the socket stud, apply the known weight, then rotate
the clamp and stud to the degree that the handle is once again horizontal.
Then read the torque scale on the wrench. The weight is applied perpendicular
to the handle in that situation & thus is all used to produce torque. For
a clicker wrench, simply perform the process twice, once with just a tad less
weight than the sought after torque (no click) and once with just a tad more
(click).
A final caveat. These tests only tell us if the wrench is accurate at the tested
data point. If we want to know if the wrench is accurate over the full range,
then we must perform a full range of tests. A wrench is commonly spot on
at two points, one low and one high, with a negligible error in between and beyond
each of those two points. The thing is, we don't know if that's the case
without testing throughout the range.
--------
Daniel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125771#125771
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
Why would it swing down to a near vertical position, it's clamped in the vise.
The only movement you'll see is about 1 or 2 degrees as indicated on the torque
wrench scale. If you want to get really accurate you could also factor in the
1 or 2 degree movement but it's negligible. This is a static test, not a dynamic
test. Not the same as trying to measure the torque of a running engine, which
is actually done the same way really, you just measure the perpendicular
force at a certain distance and the brake (be it water or asbetos brake pads)
adds the force to that arm.
DanielBK wrote:
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > ... I guess a better method would be to clamp the torque wrench perpendicular
to the floor and then add a given weight (say 80 lbs) to the handle of the
torque wrench at the 1 foot mark on the handle from the center of the socket fitting
and see that the wrench reads 80ft-lbs. ...
> >
>
>
> Actually, this would be a terrible method that is commonly thought to be a good
method. Think vectors. Or for a practical example, think of two extremes,
then deduce the situation between extremes. For the example, we'll use an accurate
and new wrench, fresh from the factory calibration bench. We'll use a
special wrench that allows 90 of movement between zero and max torque for no better
reason than it makes for an easier demonstration of principle.
>
> If we begin with the setup suggested, with the business end in the vice, everything
true, level and orthogonal, the handle horizontal, and no weight attached,
we get an accurate reading of zero lb-ft (not "ft-lb", a common error). That's
the first extreme.
>
> Next, apply a whole bunch of weight, such that the handle swings down to a near
vertical position. The reading on the wrench will be considerably less than
the weight applied. Why so? Because the weight is pulling straight down, not
tangent to the arc of the handle swing. Only force applied on a tangent to
the arc (perpendicular to the handle shaft) produces torque. We lost that perpendicularity
with the very first movement of the handle, thus when we reach
this near vertical condition, most of the weight is simply pulling straight out
on the handle. That is the second extreme.
>
> It's self evident that the error produced by this method is minor at first and
escalates the further we swing the handle. A tip though: The progression is
not linear.
>
> Three solutions come to mind that would allow us to use a dead weight test.
One would be to dust off a geometry text and compute the effect at any angular
displacement. Sines, cosines, arctangents, etc. If that makes us groan, an
alternative would be to simply draw the vectors (lines showing direction and scale)
and measure the resultant. The third solution would be the dirty fingernails
approach (perfectly appropriate): Build our clamping rig rig such that
we clamp the wrench as before,on the socket stud, apply the known weight, then
rotate the clamp and stud to the degree that the handle is once again horizontal.
Then read the torque scale on the wrench. The weight is applied perpendicular
to the handle in that situation & thus is all used to produce torque.
For a clicker wrench, simply perform the process twice, once with just a tad less
weight than the sought after torque (no click) and once with just a tad more
(click).
>
> A final caveat. These tests only tell us if the wrench is accurate at the tested
data point. If we want to know if the wrench is accurate over the full range,
then we must perform a full range of tests. A wrench is commonly spot on
at two points, one low and one high, with a negligible error in between and
beyond each of those two points. The thing is, we don't know if that's the case
without testing throughout the range.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125772#125772
Message 9
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Thanks to all that replied to my request .I am using .025 material and
am well along the way . Thanks again Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: wade jones
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:00 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Pucker Factor
Hello group ,I have just started fitting my middle top skin and will try
very hard to not get the dreaded pucker .This is where it makes a
compound bend with the forward side skin .ZAC instructions say to back
drill to 6-B-12-2 then drill to the longerons then to the tube frames
.then install this skin under the forward side skins .Has anyone in the
group got by without any pucker in this area .Is there a better sequence
for this task. Has anyone let the middle top skin go on top of the
forward side skin .All replies will be greatly appreciated .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 115mm flanging die needed |
Hey Larry:
If you don't get a better offer, my "iron" dies are available. They are
currently in the "custody" of Builder John Bolding in Texas who is finished
with them and awaiting shipping instructions. It is the three die set that
needs to stay together, but it is my understanding that the three dies will
fit in a postal flat rate box and ship for under ten bucks.
Let me know if you want them.
Best Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive
Subject: Zenith-List: 115mm flanging die needed
>
> Thanks to a good building buddy, I already have two sets of flanging dies
(65mm and 95mm). I'm missing the larger 115mm dies for my wing ribs.
>
> Is there anyone on the list with a 115mm set that I could use for a few
weeks? I'll be glad to pay shipping both ways. Thanks.
>
> Feel free to contact me off list.
>
> Do not archive.
>
> --------
> Larry Winger
> Tustin, CA
> 601XL/Corvair from scratch
> Control surfaces and wing spars complete
> Making wing ribs
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL fuel sender |
I have not gotten a chance to put a VOM on the wire yet, but I did fill the take
to about 13 gal. and fly for an hour or so. Somewhere along the way my wife
noticed that the gauge started reading something believable (12.5). After I
while it dropped to 4, than up to 8, then 5....
It can't simply be getting stuck, because there is no reason for it to have ever
hit zero. It can't have a hole in the float, because it never would gave risen
up from zero.
It must be some kind of failure in the sender, or faulty wiring on my part.
The up-side of these senders is that they fit. No need for any dome covers on
the wings.
Thanks for the input.
Alan
--------
Alan Smith
Zodiac 601 N601FW
oaksnspokes@earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125807#125807
Message 12
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I am just getting started. Tomorrow I plan to pick up material for
form blocks. Is 3/4 inch hardwood good for all situations?
Thanks, Jerry CH 701
Message 13
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Hi Jerry ,the hardwood will work but why spend so much money .3/4" MDF is
much cheaper and will do the job just as well .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Hey" <jerryhey@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 5:25 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: form blocks
>
> I am just getting started. Tomorrow I plan to pick up material for form
> blocks. Is 3/4 inch hardwood good for all situations?
> Thanks, Jerry CH 701
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 115mm flanging die needed |
Thanks, Randy. That sounds great to me.
I'll contact you off list for more details.
Larry Winger
Do Not Archive
On 7/26/07, Randy L. Thwing <n4546v@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Larry:
>
> If you don't get a better offer, my "iron" dies are available. They are
> currently in the "custody" of Builder John Bolding in Texas who is
> finished
> with them and awaiting shipping instructions. It is the three die set
> that
> needs to stay together, but it is my understanding that the three dies
> will
> fit in a postal flat rate box and ship for under ten bucks.
>
> Let me know if you want them.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas do not archive
>
>
> Subject: Zenith-List: 115mm flanging die needed
>
>
> >
> > Thanks to a good building buddy, I already have two sets of flanging
> dies
> (65mm and 95mm). I'm missing the larger 115mm dies for my wing ribs.
> >
> > Is there anyone on the list with a 115mm set that I could use for a few
> weeks? I'll be glad to pay shipping both ways. Thanks.
> >
> > Feel free to contact me off list.
> >
> > Do not archive.
> >
> > --------
> > Larry Winger
> > Tustin, CA
> > 601XL/Corvair from scratch
> > Control surfaces and wing spars complete
> > Making wing ribs
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
I wonder if WW would agree with you?
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "DanielBK" <DanielBK@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More torque wrench
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
>> ... I guess a better method would be to clamp the torque wrench
>> perpendicular to the floor and then add a given weight (say 80 lbs) to
>> the handle of the torque wrench at the 1 foot mark on the handle from the
>> center of the socket fitting and see that the wrench reads 80ft-lbs. ...
>>
>
>
> Actually, this would be a terrible method that is commonly thought to be a
> good method. Think vectors. Or for a practical example, think of two
> extremes, then deduce the situation between extremes. For the example,
> we'll use an accurate and new wrench, fresh from the factory calibration
> bench. We'll use a special wrench that allows 90 of movement between
> zero and max torque for no better reason than it makes for an easier
> demonstration of principle.
>
> If we begin with the setup suggested, with the business end in the vice,
> everything true, level and orthogonal, the handle horizontal, and no
> weight attached, we get an accurate reading of zero lb-ft (not "ft-lb", a
> common error). That's the first extreme.
>
> Next, apply a whole bunch of weight, such that the handle swings down to a
> near vertical position. The reading on the wrench will be considerably
> less than the weight applied. Why so? Because the weight is pulling
> straight down, not tangent to the arc of the handle swing. Only force
> applied on a tangent to the arc (perpendicular to the handle shaft)
> produces torque. We lost that perpendicularity with the very first
> movement of the handle, thus when we reach this near vertical condition,
> most of the weight is simply pulling straight out on the handle. That is
> the second extreme.
>
> It's self evident that the error produced by this method is minor at first
> and escalates the further we swing the handle. A tip though: The
> progression is not linear.
>
> Three solutions come to mind that would allow us to use a dead weight
> test. One would be to dust off a geometry text and compute the effect at
> any angular displacement. Sines, cosines, arctangents, etc. If that
> makes us groan, an alternative would be to simply draw the vectors (lines
> showing direction and scale) and measure the resultant. The third
> solution would be the dirty fingernails approach (perfectly appropriate):
> Build our clamping rig rig such that we clamp the wrench as before,on the
> socket stud, apply the known weight, then rotate the clamp and stud to the
> degree that the handle is once again horizontal. Then read the torque
> scale on the wrench. The weight is applied perpendicular to the handle in
> that situation & thus is all used to produce torque. For a clicker
> wrench, simply perform the process twice, once with just a tad less weight
> than the sought after torque (no click) and once with just a tad more
> (click).
>
> A final caveat. These tests only tell us if the wrench is accurate at the
> tested data point. If we want to know if the wrench is accurate over the
> full range, then we must perform a full range of tests. A wrench is
> commonly spot on at two points, one low and one high, with a negligible
> error in between and beyond each of those two points. The thing is, we
> don't know if that's the case without testing throughout the range.
>
> --------
> Daniel
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=125771#125771
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
Are the torque specs so close that it is necessary to go to the extremes you
folks have written of? How about torqueing up bolts that, by definition,
use castle nuts? Do you go up in torque to the next slot, or down to the
previous slot?
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
Dave,
If you're talking propeller hub bolts, I don't use castle nuts. I use
Nylock nuts to avoid over-tightening. Otherwise you'll be fighting this
battle forever. They are acceptable for metal props and don't come
loose. I don't go past the sound of the click on the torque wrench and
wouldn't pass the indicator of that type.
If you're talking wood props, you need a thick metal faceplate, thin
washers, castle nuts and better guidance from the mfr of the prop.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Dave Austin wrote:
>
> Are the torque specs so close that it is necessary to go to the
> extremes you folks have written of? How about torqueing up bolts
> that, by definition, use castle nuts? Do you go up in torque to the
> next slot, or down to the previous slot?
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: More torque wrench |
torque to the low limit and tighten to the next slot/hole combination. If the bolt
has 4 holes and the nut has 3 slots it is very easy to make the middle of
the range. If the bolt has 1 hole and the nut has 3 slots you may need an AN960
"L" washer to adjust the length under the nut.
Are the torque specs so close that it is necessary to go to the extremes you
folks have written of? How about torqueing up bolts that, by definition,
use castle nuts? Do you go up in torque to the next slot, or down to the
previous slot?
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
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I concur. MDF is great, especially since the XL uses so many blocks and you
only need two ribs from each. I only used hardwood (oak) for the one set of
nose rib blocks--since you need to make so many from them, and they have
that hard radius. I did not add aluminum, to my nose ribs blocks, as the
plans suggested. They have held up fine. The aluminum may be necessary if
you were using regular plywood, though.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville TN
601XL; Plans building.
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds
do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wade jones
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: form blocks
Hi Jerry ,the hardwood will work but why spend so much money .3/4" MDF is
much cheaper and will do the job just as well .
Message 20
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Hello, all
Any recommendations on the order of riveting the wing skins?
The old CH601-HD manual says the top skin should go first, so you can adjust
any imperfections from underneath, before installing the bottom skin.
All input welcome, particularly from -HD and -HDS builders.
Thanks in advance
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Message 21
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| Subject: | Off topic - Two killed in blast at Rutan rocket site in California |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070727/ts_nm/airport_explosion_dc_6
-- Craig
do not archive
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