---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/30/07: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:35 AM - Re: I need to sell these Instruments (secatur) 2. 02:36 AM - Re: Leveling - (Again) (Dave G.) 3. 03:20 AM - Re: Leveling - (Again) (David Downey) 4. 04:25 AM - 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (Frank Derfler) 5. 06:04 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (William Dominguez) 6. 07:18 AM - Made in the USA (LRM) 7. 07:31 AM - Re: juhl@avci.net (japhillipsga@aol.com) 8. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: 701 Takeoff w flaps (Chuck Deiterich) 9. 08:09 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 10. 08:23 AM - Oh, those cheap imports!! (Zed Smith) 11. 08:33 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (Gary Boothe) 12. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Re: 701 Takeoff w flaps (Robert Hansen) 13. 08:50 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground () 14. 08:55 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (Jaybannist@cs.com) 15. 09:06 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (Gary Boothe) 16. 10:00 AM - Re: Disappointed at Oshkosh (Tim Juhl) 17. 10:26 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (Jaybannist@cs.com) 18. 10:49 AM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (Al Young) 19. 11:32 AM - Re: Made in the USA (robert stone) 20. 11:35 AM - Re: More torque wrench (DanielBK) 21. 12:33 PM - Re: More torque wrench (ashontz) 22. 12:44 PM - Re: More torque wrench (ashontz) 23. 12:46 PM - Re: Made in the USA (Robert N. Eli) 24. 12:47 PM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (ashontz) 25. 12:55 PM - Re: Disappointed at Oshkosh (PatrickW) 26. 12:59 PM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (ashontz) 27. 01:14 PM - Re: Leveling - (Again) (Dave G.) 28. 01:16 PM - Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground (ashontz) 29. 01:21 PM - CH601XL in Souuth Jersey (ashontz) 30. 01:30 PM - Re: closing wing (ashontz) 31. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: AMD Patriot (C Smith) 32. 01:34 PM - Re: form blocks (ashontz) 33. 01:34 PM - Re: Made in the USA () 34. 01:45 PM - Re: Made in the USA (Terry Turnquist) 35. 01:50 PM - Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project (PatrickW) 36. 02:22 PM - Re: Made in the USA (Robert Schoenberger) 37. 03:35 PM - Re: 601XL Fuselage (wade jones) 38. 03:59 PM - Re: Made in the USA (Bill Naumuk) 39. 04:31 PM - Re: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project (Paul Mulwitz) 40. 04:35 PM - Re: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project (hillsgun) 41. 04:37 PM - Re: Made in the USA (Paul Mulwitz) 42. 04:47 PM - Zenith builders chat tonight (leinad) 43. 05:18 PM - Re: 601 down in Mojave / Rosemond (Brandon Tucker) 44. 05:35 PM - Re: Zenith builders chat tonight (SABorns@aol.com) 45. 05:37 PM - Leveling - (Again) (4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons)) 46. 06:00 PM - Re: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project (Randy L. Thwing) 47. 06:54 PM - Re: Made in the USA (LRM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I need to sell these Instruments From: "secatur" Welcome to the REAL world !!! IF you WANT to buy it it's worth a Squillion $ IF you want to SELL it it's worth 1/2 ZIP! Human Nature at it's FINEST! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126297#126297 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:48 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) Just a quick caution about these water levels. Sunshine will seriously affect their accuracy. If one end is in sun and the other in shade, the levels can change. Just something to watch out for. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Simmons To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) Hey list and maybe newbies, About a week an a half ago, I asked about using the water level method for setting the upper front longerons and all the other elements during this time of assembly. If you are close to this area of assembly, you realize it sets almost all attaching elements except for the tail. Anyhow, thanks to a list user, he suggested using the single tube method and it works great. http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/WaterLevel.htm I was able to move from front to rear as well as side to side and I believe with great results. It's I believe a lot more accurate than the normal bubble level over distance. It is also easier than using the floor method of leveling the longerins and engine mounts. It's also a lot easier than using multiple levels. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:05 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) I am not saying you are wrong Dave. All I am saying is that I have used them for 45+years and have never observed that particular phenomenon. I will be even more anal in the future! "Dave G." wrote: Just a quick caution about these water levels. Sunshine will seriously affect their accuracy. If one end is in sun and the other in shade, the levels can change. Just something to watch out for. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Simmons To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) Hey list and maybe newbies, About a week an a half ago, I asked about using the water level method for setting the upper front longerons and all the other elements during this time of assembly. If you are close to this area of assembly, you realize it sets almost all attaching elements except for the tail. Anyhow, thanks to a list user, he suggested using the single tube method and it works great. http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/WaterLevel.htm I was able to move from front to rear as well as side to side and I believe with great results. It's I believe a lot more accurate than the normal bubble level over distance. It is also easier than using the floor method of leveling the longerins and engine mounts. It's also a lot easier than using multiple levels. Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:31 AM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground I hac some great replies to my question about keeping the airplane on the ground in a high wind (i.e. Hurricane). -Using sand bags on the wings is the most practical idea. -Using swim noodles tied to the wing shows an almost frightening ability to think "outside the box". Bryan, if I still had a business I'd offer you a job immediately. -"Buy more insurance" was good advice from several sources. I'm a 500 hour pilot and paying about $2.5K annually for the 601. Marathon doesn't have a good record for wind and flood losses. But, it's fully insured! -"It's not the wind, it's the water!" was probably right on the money and in line with experience. -"Don't worry about it flying away, it's all the other stuff crashing into it" is also true. I think the winner is sandbags. Easy to put on and take off. Maybe help to defeat all kinds of lift including "flat plate lift" described by David. And cheap! Thanks, Bob! -- Frank Derfler -- Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com - Pilots learn about flights to great places at www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM -Boaters get the Best Information on Cruising the Florida Keys at www.KEYSBOATER.com -For the Best Gifts for Guys see my www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:57 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground What about trailering the plane home and store it in your garage, unless you live in a zone where the storm surge can wipe your home away. Having being living in "hurricane valley" all my life and having experienced 2 mayor hurricanes (cat 5), 4 light ones and uncounted tropical storms, I don't believe that a light plane like the Zodiac could be made safe to ride a hurricane while tied down or hangared in an airport no matter what you do. If you have a garage, it is not difficult to reinforce the door from the inside or to replace it with newer hurricane resistant ones. If you dont have a garage but have a good patio, there are some sheds like this one http://www.smithbilt.com/ that are quite strong despite their appearances. How strong, well, I have a video documentary made after hurricane Andrew went thru Homestead FL. In it, there is a mobile home park completely destroyed. In the middle of the destruction you can see one of these sheds, intact. If Im still living in South Florida by the time my plane is flying, my plan is to trailer it home at the beginning of the peak hurricane season, and then trailer it back to the airport at the end. This mean that I wont be flying, or will have to be renting for about 4 month every year. Either I do this or I will have to accept the fact that I will lose my plane sooner or later, because in South Florida, a hurricane is not a matter of if but when. I have no connection or participation in the company linked in this message. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida Frank Derfler wrote: I hac some great replies to my question about keeping the airplane on the ground in a high wind (i.e. Hurricane). -Using sand bags on the wings is the most practical idea. -Using swim noodles tied to the wing shows an almost frightening ability to think "outside the box". Bryan, if I still had a business I'd offer you a job immediately. -"Buy more insurance" was good advice from several sources. I'm a 500 hour pilot and paying about $2.5K annually for the 601. Marathon doesn't have a good record for wind and flood losses. But, it's fully insured! -"It's not the wind, it's the water!" was probably right on the money and in line with experience. -"Don't worry about it flying away, it's all the other stuff crashing into it" is also true. I think the winner is sandbags. Easy to put on and take off. Maybe help to defeat all kinds of lift including "flat plate lift" described by David. And cheap! Thanks, Bob! -- Frank Derfler -- Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com - Pilots learn about flights to great places at www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM -Boaters get the Best Information on Cruising the Florida Keys at www.KEYSBOATER.com -For the Best Gifts for Guys see my www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:49 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 days. You think I'm pissed? Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: juhl@avci.net From: japhillipsga@aol.com Ed, just to make your day. Sat a.m. I went up in my XL and she performed flawlessly. At 4K she was at 150 + with two of us in her and the CHTs?slowly dipped down into the 290s. The air was full of moisture and felt soft. Wind was straight down the runway so I used flaps for landing and I bled it down to "walking speed" on the LRI before touch down. Yes it is all worth it. Keep pounding away. Best regards, Bill of Georgia? -----Original Message----- From: Edward Moody II Sent: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 9:08 pm Subject: Zenith-List: juhl@avci.net Sorry Tim, not much I can do to help either. I'm at home in LA slogging away at mounting the axles, brakes and wheelpant brackets to the gear legs, forks etc. Even when I finish I dunno about getting up to Oshkosh or over to Sun N Fun. How about Open Hangar Day at the factory? ? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Juhl Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 7:51 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Disappointed at Oshkosh I just finished my last day (of 3) at Oshkosh and was disappointed not to see any Zodiac XL's in attendance other than the two at the factory display.? Maybe I didn't look in the right places but there was a whole air force of RV's but no XL's. If we are proud of our machines I think we should show them off!? Since mine isn't finished I was unable to do my part but hopefully that time will come. Other than that, Oshkosh was..... well, Oshkosh.?? Great planes, lots of people, some rain, some sun.? In short, a great experience and one I look forward to every year. Tim Juhl -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126079#126079 http://www.matron====================== bsp;? available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -- Edition. 7/28/2007 3:50 PM ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:13 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: 701 Takeoff w flaps Ralph, I used ZAC's 701 specs when I built my hanger. It turns out they had changed the landing gear and so the rudder was a bit too high. I put a 2" block between the nose strut and nose wheel fork. The tail now fits and there is a slight nose up attitude on the ground. I noticed that the ZAC factory 701 pitched up at lift off too. I hold a bit of back pressure and my 701 lifts off smoothly with no ptich up. I will try some flaps, thanks, Chuck D. N701TX Time: 03:55:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Takeoff w flaps From: "jetboy" Nearly always use 16 deg (full flap on rev-4 and later designs) for T/O and climbout as it gives better cooling and about the same climb rate @ 50 KTs. Also at the point of liftoff the pitch up response is less pronounced. Ralph ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:06 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground Let me add a little about tieing down for the big wind. DO NOT USE STEEL CABLE to tie wings. I did on a J-3 and lost a wing. Moved it from Palm Beach to the center of Fla. because the hurricane was going to pass us in the ocean, guess where it went. Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:39 AM PST US From: Zed Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Oh, those cheap imports!! do not archive !! Larry, Three large cheers for your web page concerning the wonderful welder. Reminds me of the "Truckload Tool Sale" some years ago. Large advertisement appeared in the local newspaper announcing that a "truckload of heavy-duty tools, just right for farm implement maintenance...." would be in town at a specified location from 8 A.M. until 2 P.M. Customers flocked to the site and bought several hundred 3/4" drive socket sets for extremely low prices. The truck left promptly a 2. The customers then discovered that they had purchased eight-point sockets. These will work very well on SQUARE nuts as are found on very old farm machinery. Regards to all, Zed ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:42 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground All this talk of spoilers and hurricanes.out here in California we don't get any weather. Can someone tell me; what's a 'tie-down'? ; ) Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section Do not archive _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 8:08 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground Let me add a little about tieing down for the big wind. DO NOT USE STEEL CABLE to tie wings. I did on a J-3 and lost a wing. Moved it from Palm Beach to the center of Fla. because the hurricane was going to pass us in the ocean, guess where it went. Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:50 AM PST US From: Robert Hansen Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: 701 Takeoff w flaps Ralph,=0ACould you send me a picture of the "2" block". I am going to want to raise the nose wheel and put larger main tires on. The plane at this web site http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/ has larger mains, I just need to fi gure out how to do it.=0A=0ARob=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Chuck Deiterich =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mo nday, July 30, 2007 8:42:20 AM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: 701 Takeoff pgrb.com>=0A=0ARalph,=0A=0AI used ZAC's 701 specs when I built my hanger. It turns out they had=0Achanged the landing gear=0Aand so the rudder was a bit too high. I put a 2" block between the nose=0Astrut and nose=0Awheel f ork. The tail now fits and there is a slight nose up attitude on the=0Agro und. I noticed=0Athat the ZAC factory 701 pitched up at lift off too. I h old a bit of back=0Apressure and my 701=0Alifts off smoothly with no ptich up.=0A=0AI will try some flaps, thanks,=0AChuck D.=0AN701TX=0A=0A=0A=0ATime : 03:55:29 PM PST US=0ASubject: Zenith-List: Re: 701 Takeoff w flaps=0AFrom : "jetboy" =0A=0A=0ANearly always use 16 deg (full fla p on rev-4 and later designs) for T/O and=0Aclimbout=0Aas it gives better c ooling and about the same climb rate @ 50 KTs. Also=0Aat the point of lifto =======================0A=0A=0A =0A_________________________________________________________________ ___________________=0ATake the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet i n your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. =0Ahttp://mobile.yahoo.com/go?ref er=1GNXIC ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:16 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground It's like a freeway at rush hour...... the equipment stays right where it is, no matter what. Dred ---- Gary Boothe wrote: > All this talk of spoilers and hurricanes.out here in California we don't get > any weather. Can someone tell me; what's a 'tie-down'? ; ) > > > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA > 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, > Tail done, wings done, working on c-section > > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:34 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground Gary, A "tie-down" is what a calf roper does after he has successfully roped a calf. However, we also use tie-down ropes or chains at the airport to secure both wings and the tail to the ground so that the next renter will have something to do before he kicks the tires and lights the fires. Jay in Dallas Do not archive "Gary Boothe" wrote: >All this talk of spoilers and hurricanes.out here in California we don't get >any weather. Can someone tell me; what's a 'tie-down'? ; ) > > > >Gary Boothe >Cool, CA >601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, >Tail done, wings done, working on c-section > >Do not archive > > _____ > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >Jeyoung65@aol.com >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 8:08 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground > > > >Let me add a little about tieing down for the big wind. DO NOT USE STEEL >CABLE to tie wings. I did on a J-3 and lost a wing. Moved it from Palm Beach >to the center of Fla. because the hurricane was going to pass us in the >ocean, guess where it went. Jerry of Ga > > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > _____ > > . > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:15 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground "...A "tie-down" is what a calf roper does after he has successfully roped a calf..." Now I understand! What's the fastest time? Gary Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 8:54 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground Gary, A "tie-down" is what a calf roper does after he has successfully roped a calf. However, we also use tie-down ropes or chains at the airport to secure both wings and the tail to the ground so that the next renter will have something to do before he kicks the tires and lights the fires. Jay in Dallas Do not archive "Gary Boothe" wrote: >All this talk of spoilers and hurricanes.out here in California we don't get >any weather. Can someone tell me; what's a 'tie-down'? ; ) > > > >Gary Boothe >Cool, CA >601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, >Tail done, wings done, working on c-section > >Do not archive > > _____ > >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >Jeyoung65@aol.com >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 8:08 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground > > > >Let me add a little about tieing down for the big wind. DO NOT USE STEEL >CABLE to tie wings. I did on a J-3 and lost a wing. Moved it from Palm Beach >to the center of Fla. because the hurricane was going to pass us in the >ocean, guess where it went. Jerry of Ga > > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > _____ > > . > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Disappointed at Oshkosh From: "Tim Juhl" Glad to hear that I was mistaken. I'll do a better job of looking around next year. It is always nice to be able to see what others have done. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126371#126371 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:13 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground Gary, Actually, Rodeo Cowboys now call the calf roping event "tie-down roping." I don't think they have official records, because of the variations in event conditions: different size or breed of calves, different arena conditions (dirt conditions, indoor or out, night or day, cold or hot, etc.) However, the really fast times are around six seconds. Jay in Dallas Do not archive "Gary Boothe" wrote: > >"...A "tie-down" is what a calf roper does after he has successfully roped a >calf..." > >Now I understand! What's the fastest time? > >Gary >Do not archive > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:25 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground Great answer Dred- Almost a classic!! Al ( Do not archive) Young ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:48 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground > > It's like a freeway at rush hour...... the equipment stays right where it > is, no matter what. > > Dred > > ---- Gary Boothe wrote: >> All this talk of spoilers and hurricanes.out here in California we don't >> get >> any weather. Can someone tell me; what's a 'tie-down'? ; ) >> >> >> >> Gary Boothe >> Cool, CA >> 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, >> Tail done, wings done, working on c-section >> >> Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:43 AM PST US From: "robert stone" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Larry, I am not a lawyer so I may be wrong but it seems to me you are leaving yourself open to a lawsuit for saying this guy is dishonest. I believe everything you have said on your web site but it's not a good idea to say the things you have said unless you can prove it all. I guess this fool you got the machine from is too stupid to realize that the aviation comunity is small and his actions will come back to bite him in the ass sure as hell. What he has cheated you out of is nothing compared to the money he will lose in profits from prospective customers who see your web site. People like him do not last and he will go belly up in the end. I have heard of so many people getting cheated doing business via the internet that I do not buy anything that I cannot see and make sure it works except from a well known source like Aircraft Spruce & Specialty. As a matter of fact, I just ordered a handheld aviation radio from them and it did not work so I called and was told to package it up and they would arrange for UPS to pick it up on monday, today. A new one will be sent out to me also today. I have bought many items from Spruce and never had a problem with any product and I know if I do they will do right by me. Tracy Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: LRM To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Vaughn Carl ; Paul Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 days. You think I'm pissed? Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More torque wrench From: "DanielBK" ashontz wrote: > Why would it swing down to a near vertical position, it's clamped in the vise. The only movement you'll see is about 1 or 2 degrees as indicated on the torque wrench scale. If you want to get really accurate you could also factor in the 1 or 2 degree movement but it's negligible. ... > The "near vertical" was, as stated, an imaginary wrench used solely to illustrate an extreme. (It's always easier to envision the extremes & thus the principle at work). But 1-2 isn't always a realistic condition either. We clamped the stud, not the handle or head of the tool. I have an old bar & poointer type that will swing a good 20 in it's range. I agree that in the lightly loaded condition, the effect is negligible. But then, if it's only swinging 1 or 2 , I should be using a lighter wrench anyway, as the accuracy at the extremes is usually less than in the midrange. Someone else noted that this isn't an engine, that torque is measured at the perpindicular in any event. That is the spot on: We either need to measure at the perpindicular or, for all practical purposes, very near to it, or we aren't getting a true torque reading. It's easy enough to do it correctly. Daniel Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126392#126392 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More torque wrench From: "ashontz" Actually, the twist/flex across the length of the bar IS the torque being measured at the scale. The stud is where it needs to be clamped. That's just simulating what's going on while using the wrench, except the wrench isn't going around. In fact, by the time you get to your torque setting, particularly if it's high, the wrench isn't moving much anyway at that point. DanielBK wrote: > > ashontz wrote: > > Why would it swing down to a near vertical position, it's clamped in the vise. The only movement you'll see is about 1 or 2 degrees as indicated on the torque wrench scale. If you want to get really accurate you could also factor in the 1 or 2 degree movement but it's negligible. ... > > > > > The "near vertical" was, as stated, an imaginary wrench used solely to illustrate an extreme. (It's always easier to envision the extremes & thus the principle at work). > > But 1-2 isn't always a realistic condition either. We clamped the stud, not the handle or head of the tool. I have an old bar & poointer type that will swing a good 20 in it's range. I agree that in the lightly loaded condition, the effect is negligible. But then, if it's only swinging 1 or 2 , I should be using a lighter wrench anyway, as the accuracy at the extremes is usually less than in the midrange. > > Someone else noted that this isn't an engine, that torque is measured at the perpindicular in any event. That is the spot on: We either need to measure at the perpindicular or, for all practical purposes, very near to it, or we aren't getting a true torque reading. It's easy enough to do it correctly. > > Daniel -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126405#126405 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: More torque wrench From: "ashontz" daveaustin2(at)primus.ca wrote: > Are the torque specs so close that it is necessary to go to the extremes you > folks have written of? How about torqueing up bolts that, by definition, > use castle nuts? Do you go up in torque to the next slot, or down to the > previous slot? > Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII Torqued nuts and bolts aren't supposed to come off on their own because the clamping force due to the torque should exceed the maximum design force the bolt would see longitudinally. For example, head bolts on an engine, the force that the bolts are exerting holding the head to the engine block exceeds the maximum explosive force of the burning fuel, hence no movement. However, if the bolts weren't torqued down enough, even if they seemed 'tight', there would be movement over time and particularly right after a power stroke, to allow the bolts to work themselves free. Castled nuts I believe are more for applications where a slight amount of slop (even if it's only 1/1000 of an inch clearance) is allowed, or even preferred and particularly where there is rotational forces as in tapered bearings like on a trailer wheel or car wheel. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126410#126410 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:58 PM PST US From: "Robert N. Eli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Way-to-go Larry!! Two thumbs up! I am also sick and tired of cheap chinese junk, and have sworn it off. Give me good ole Made in the USA tools, even if I do have to pay a premium. Bob Eli CH701 ----- Original Message ----- From: LRM To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Vaughn Carl ; Paul Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:16 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 days. You think I'm pissed? Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground From: "ashontz" Dag, what a bummer, to be stuck on the ground in the Florida keys. LOL. I'll trade with you. :) I thought it was only windy down there in the winter. Sounds like it's windy all the time. do not archive [quote="fderfler(at)gmail.com"]Asking for advice: It is the "windy season" in the Florida Keys. My 601XL has to sit tied down outside. When the circular storms come, I wouldn't be surprised to see breezes that exceed Vr, Vx, Vy, and Vna coming right down the runway. (Aside: for those of you who say "Fly it away to safety" I'd say that you havn't been down here to the end of the narrow peninsula that is Florida. "Safety" is only assured more than 1000 miles away ... maybe. They really do NOT know where these storms are going! ) (Story to prove the point: August 2004 I had an Grumman sitting at a bayfront airport in Tampa. The official word was that Tampa was going to get hit hard by hurricane Charley. The Bay was going to rise 30 feet. So, I thought, "I should save my airplane and fly it to Arcadia." Arcadia is a town far inland and south of Tampa. Well, preparing the family was more important than saving the Grumman, so I didn't fly. The storm didn't come close to Tampa while the Arcadia airport was hit hard. As another example, look at the unnecessary evacuation of Houston in advance of Katrina. They really do not have much of a clue where these things will go.) For those of you who say: "Put it in a hangar". Well, none are available in the foreseeable future and we have probably suffered more losses among airplanes in hangars at Marathon than in the open. Hangar doors (The phrase: "Big as a barn door") fail and crash on the airplanes inside. Anyway, I have other responsibilities and can't be sitting with the airplane 1000 miles away. So, I want to keep the wings on my 601 from trying to fly. Questions for the group: 1. I see that Kennon Covers has wing covers with spoilers built in. SEE: http://www.kennoncovers.com/wingcovers.htm (http://www.kennoncovers.com/wingcovers.htm) Has anyone tried these on any aircraft? A 601? How difficult to put on and take off? 2. I can't believe that it takes much to be a spolier, but the big problem is attaching something to the 601's wing because the whole back edge is full of relatively fragile control surfaces. Also, I don't want to ruin the paint. How about an old blanket tied onto the wing with 50' of 1/4" rope? Or even, how about 50' of 1/4" or 3/8" rope itself wrapped around each wing? Would that "spoil" the aerodynamics enough to keep the wings from flying? Yes, I know... just as soon as I have my airplane securely tied down and with "spoiled" wings, some idiot's 172C is going to break its 25 year old tie-down ropes and land upside down on my plane. But, I will have tried! -- FJD -- Frank Derfler -- Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com (http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com) - Pilots learn about flights to great places at www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM (http://www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM) -Boaters get the Best Information on Cruising the Florida Keys at www.KEYSBOATER.com (http://www.KEYSBOATER.com) -For the Best Gifts for Guys see my www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com (http://www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com) > [b] -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126412#126412 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Disappointed at Oshkosh From: "PatrickW" I'd recommend going to the builder's dinner too. You'll meet all kinds of builders there. Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126415#126415 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:22 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground From: "ashontz" Seeing as how you really can't guarantee which direction the wind will come from, I think if I ran an airport in FL, for each tie-down spot I'd sink about a yard of concrete in the ground with a big 3" diameter pipe in it, then weld up a fairly balanced structure that then sits on the pipe and can swivel and can be adjusted for different wheel sets. Then when it comes time to tie down you just pull the plane up on the big swivel thing and lash the tires to it real good, then strap noodles to the wings. LOL -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126418#126418 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:20 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) We used one based on 3/8" vinyl tubing with coloured water on a foundation. leaving it set up as we went along, it was quite stange how everthing seemed to "settle" at one end as the day went on. When we brought the two ends together after a couple hours to move it the water was over an inch higher on the hot side. The only reason we could think of was the heat. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Downey To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:18 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) I am not saying you are wrong Dave. All I am saying is that I have used them for 45+years and have never observed that particular phenomenon. I will be even more anal in the future! "Dave G." wrote: Just a quick caution about these water levels. Sunshine will seriously affect their accuracy. If one end is in sun and the other in shade, the levels can change. Just something to watch out for. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Simmons To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) Hey list and maybe newbies, About a week an a half ago, I asked about using the water level method for setting the upper front longerons and all the other elements during this time of assembly. If you are close to this area of assembly, you realize it sets almost all attaching elements except for the tail. Anyhow, thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Luggage? GPS? Comic books? ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601 Wing Spoilers: On the Ground From: "ashontz" Dag, someone beat me to it. Good idea though. Don't try to fight the wind, just go with the flow. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5979121.html do not archive -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126424#126424 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:50 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: CH601XL in Souuth Jersey From: "ashontz" Is anyone with a CH601XL planning on flying to south jersey anytime in the next few months. If so I'd appreciate the opportunity to take a look at one of these badboys in person. I'm building one, but I've never actually seen one other than photographs. In fact I've never seen any 601 in person and would be curious just to get a look at a completed one in person. Thanks -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126425#126425 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: closing wing From: "ashontz" I did the top first per the photo guide. do not archive -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126426#126426 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:11 PM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: AMD Patriot I just finished reading the article today in AOPA Pilot, and noted that instead of the traditional Hoerner tips, they are using the droop tips, very similar to Cessna's and Mathieu was emphatic that this was an improvement in performance in reducing wing tip vortices. So if the "new" tip design is an improvement, will it be incorporated in the rest of the line? CS ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: form blocks From: "ashontz" wjones(at)brazoriainet.co wrote: > Hi Jerry ,the hardwood will work but why spend so much money .3/4" MDF is > much cheaper and will do the job just as well . > Wade Jones South Texas > 601XL plans building > Cont. 0200 > --- I concur. MDF is great. -------- Andy Shontz CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126428#126428 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:43 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Yeah, you are a vengeful asshole. Prouda'ya, son. Paul R DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: LRM To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Vaughn Carl ; Paul Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 days. You think I'm pissed? Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:46 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Before the advent of cheap chinese tools, I couldn't afford to equip my garage. I've bought many tools from harbor freight that have worked for many years. Of course I would not reccomend them for use by a professional builder or mechanic, but for the home, oh say airplane builder, most of them are fine. Terry Turnquist Today pulling rivets with a $30.00 rivet gun instead of a $300.00 rivet gun! "Robert N. Eli" wrote: BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 75px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #000080; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Courier New } Way-to-go Larry!! Two thumbs up! I am also sick and tired of cheap chinese junk, and have sworn it off. Give me good ole Made in the USA tools, even if I do have to pay a premium. Bob Eli CH701 ----- Original Message ----- From: LRM To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Vaughn Carl ; Paul Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:16 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 days. You think I'm pissed? Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project From: "PatrickW" Last week while I was at Oshkosh, a couple of my neighbors came over to my house to talk with my wife. "We'd like to sit down and talk with you about your husbands airplane project..." They really scared my wife. :( To make a very long story short, one of my neighbors (who moved here from Modesto, CA - you guys know what that means) is an airline pilot, which to my non-pilot wife means that he knows Everything about All Aircraft. He's also a fellow EAA member (social member, not a builder). For reasons that are not important here, suffice it to say that there is nothing that I can ever say or demonstrate to him that will ever convince him that the 601 XL is a safe design. He is quite passionate and vocal about that. While I don't appreciated that they waited until I was gone before coming over, I'm not angry because I know that he has my (or at least my wife's) best interest and safety at heart. Be that as it may, support from ones spouse is critical in completing an airplane project. So in order to arm myself with the latest information, I took the opportunity while at Oshkosh to speak with several people who's technical abilities I greatly respect. People who flew their 601's in. The Zenith folks. People with real-world experience. And people who are builders just like me who face the same decisions and the same questions - and who came to the same conclusions. You guys know who you are and I thank you for answering my questions. All these people helped reassure and reinforce for me that the decisions I have made were good decisions. Based on that, I believe I was able to control the damage and reassure my wife and thus maintain her support. Today I am more confident than ever that the 601 XL is the right airplane. I hope to have my airframe completed this winter, my engine running next spring, and a flying airplane that I can bring to Oshkosh. I am really looking forward to the day when I can show my own completed and flying airplane to some of you people who I met in person last week at Oshkosh. Thanks! Patrick 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126439#126439 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:16 PM PST US From: Robert Schoenberger Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA I wouldn't write off Harbor Freight. I have found their tools to be very good for my applications and have never had one fail. Robert Schoenberger 701 do not archive. Robert N. Eli wrote: > Way-to-go Larry!! Two thumbs up! > > I am also sick and tired of cheap chinese junk, and have sworn it off. Give me good ole Made in the USA tools, even if I do have to pay a premium. > > Bob Eli > CH701 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: LRM > To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Vaughn Carl ; Paul > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:16 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA > > > Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. > > Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. > I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. > > However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 days. You think I'm pissed? > > > Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:45 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuselage Thanks for the responses on my L angles .Do Not Archive Wade Jones South Texas 601XL plans building Cont. 0200 ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 3:37 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Fuselage > Question : when installing the L angles inside the top middle skin ,does the L angle slide between the skin and bulkhead at the rear or does it only butt up to it . It is a little hard to tell but I believe the L's overlap the bulkhead at the rear of the baggage compartment AND the tubular hoop. Page 7 of the rev 2.2 photo guide 6-B-21C says "The front of the L angles are behind the tube frame 6B21-2". Another clue is that they have you lay out the rivet lines between rivets on the bulkhead and hoop (page 6 of the photo guide). And if you look closely at the side view on 6-B-21 in the plans you will see dashed lines for the L's extending into the bulkhead. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:54 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA All- I agree, it depends on the accuracy you need and how much you intend to use a tool. For rough use, high expected accuracy tools I own Craftsman, Lincoln, Ridgid, and the like. But Terry's right- we'd be hard pressed to stock our shops without HF. And even if you think you're buying American, you never know. Name one American manufacturer of a cordless drill- I dare you! (Ridgid, B+D, Skil, Milwaukee, DeWalt, and Ryobi are Chinese). The only exception I know of is Bosch, which is Swiss. Consider this: I have an HF .001 discretion caliper/mic set I bought for less than $20.00. Realistically only accurate to .002, but accurate enough to tell what size bolt or thickness of sheet stock I have. When I had to mic my Corvair crank, not accurate enough. Borrowed a set of .0001 discretion Starrets from work. If I were to steadfastly stick to Starret, I would have to pay $195.00 for a combination square set accurate to less than .001 over 12". My alternative was to buy an HF set accurate to .010 over 12" for less than $20.00. .010 will be buried by the Sharpie line, so that's the route I took. Would I buy an Chinese welder? I didn't, but I love my HF riveter! It all depends on your application and expectations. do not archive Bill Naumuk HDS Fuse/Corvair Townville, Pa ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Turnquist To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Before the advent of cheap chinese tools, I couldn't afford to equip my garage. I've bought many tools from harbor freight that have worked for many years. Of course I would not reccomend them for use by a professional builder or mechanic, but for the home, oh say airplane builder, most of them are fine. Terry Turnquist Today pulling rivets with a $30.00 rivet gun instead of a $300.00 rivet gun! "Robert N. Eli" wrote: Way-to-go Larry!! Two thumbs up! I am also sick and tired of cheap chinese junk, and have sworn it off. Give me good ole Made in the USA tools, even if I do have to pay a premium. Bob Eli CH701 ----- Original Message ----- From: LRM To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Vaughn Carl ; Paul Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:16 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:14 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project Hi Patrick, My feelings go to you and your wife. I guess I don't really understand the content of the warning given to your wife. If it was that any home built aircraft has some danger associated with it, then I agree. If it was that the CH601XL is particularly dangerous in the field of home built aircraft then I disagree. While there have been some unfortunate accidents with XLs recently, the number of accidents is still very low. I still think the most dangerous part of any flight in an XL is the drive to the airport. Cars are really dangerous! As to airline pilots knowing everything -- I have serious doubts. They are all competent pilots, but their experience with experimental aircraft varies from nothing to being "repeat offenders". What they do seem to hold in common is a great respect for following the rules and being safety conscious. This is what they are trained to respect. Good luck, Paul XL fuselage do not archive At 01:49 PM 7/30/2007, you wrote: > >Last week while I was at Oshkosh, a couple of my >neighbors came over to my house to talk with my wife. > >"We'd like to sit down and talk with you about >your husbands airplane project..." > >They really scared my wife. :( > >To make a very long story short, one of my >neighbors (who moved here from Modesto, CA - you >guys know what that means) is an airline pilot, >which to my non-pilot wife means that he knows >Everything about All Aircraft. He's also a >fellow EAA member (social member, not a >builder). For reasons that are not important >here, suffice it to say that there is nothing >that I can ever say or demonstrate to him that >will ever convince him that the 601 XL is a safe >design. He is quite passionate and vocal about that. > >While I don't appreciated that they waited until >I was gone before coming over, I'm not angry >because I know that he has my (or at least my >wife's) best interest and safety at heart. > >Be that as it may, support from ones spouse is >critical in completing an airplane project. So >in order to arm myself with the latest >information, I took the opportunity while at >Oshkosh to speak with several people who's >technical abilities I greatly respect. People >who flew their 601's in. The Zenith >folks. People with real-world experience. And >people who are builders just like me who face >the same decisions and the same questions - and >who came to the same conclusions. > >You guys know who you are and I thank you for answering my questions. > >All these people helped reassure and reinforce >for me that the decisions I have made were good >decisions. Based on that, I believe I was able >to control the damage and reassure my wife and thus maintain her support. > >Today I am more confident than ever that the 601 >XL is the right airplane. I hope to have my >airframe completed this winter, my engine >running next spring, and a flying airplane that >I can bring to Oshkosh. I am really looking >forward to the day when I can show my own >completed and flying airplane to some of you >people who I met in person last week at Oshkosh. > >Thanks! > >Patrick >601XL/Corvair > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:43 PM PST US From: "hillsgun" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project Sounds like the zealots who periodically knock on my door and want to talk to me about converting to their religion. I feel that everyone has the right to their own opinion, but they cross the line when they try and impose it onto others. I personally have no tolerance for such actions and would in no uncertain terms make my position clear to my neighbors if I was in your position and they had tried to influence members in my family while I was away. Do they have your wife's best interest and safety in mind? I think not, they are on there own mission to make the world a safer place (in there minds) and can then feel better about themselves. Sorry for the rant. Dan. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:50 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project Last week while I was at Oshkosh, a couple of my neighbors came over to my house to talk with my wife. "We'd like to sit down and talk with you about your husbands airplane project..." They really scared my wife. :( To make a very long story short, one of my neighbors (who moved here from Modesto, CA - you guys know what that means) is an airline pilot, which to my non-pilot wife means that he knows Everything about All Aircraft. He's also a fellow EAA member (social member, not a builder). For reasons that are not important here, suffice it to say that there is nothing that I can ever say or demonstrate to him that will ever convince him that the 601 XL is a safe design. He is quite passionate and vocal about that. While I don't appreciated that they waited until I was gone before coming over, I'm not angry because I know that he has my (or at least my wife's) best interest and safety at heart. Be that as it may, support from ones spouse is critical in completing an airplane project. So in order to arm myself with the latest information, I took the opportunity while at Oshkosh to speak with several people who's technical abilities I greatly respect. People who flew their 601's in. The Zenith folks. People with real-world experience. And people who are builders just like me who face the same decisions and the same questions - and who came to the same conclusions. You guys know who you are and I thank you for answering my questions. All these people helped reassure and reinforce for me that the decisions I have made were good decisions. Based on that, I believe I was able to control the damage and reassure my wife and thus maintain her support. Today I am more confident than ever that the 601 XL is the right airplane. I hope to have my airframe completed this winter, my engine running next spring, and a flying airplane that I can bring to Oshkosh. I am really looking forward to the day when I can show my own completed and flying airplane to some of you people who I met in person last week at Oshkosh. Thanks! Patrick 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126439#126439 -- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:23 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA At 01:44 PM 7/30/2007, you wrote: >Before the advent of cheap chinese tools, I couldn't afford to equip >my garage. I've bought many tools from harbor freight that have >worked for many years. Of course >I would not reccomend them for use by a professional builder or >mechanic, but for the home, oh say airplane builder, most of them are fine. I have personally had very good luck with some Chinese tools and very bad luck with other examples. You just can't beat the Harbor Freight rivet puller. Given a population of over 1 BILLION people, I suppose it is reasonable to expect there will be some variety in goods from China. If I had to stop using goods from a whole country because of one lemon, then I guess I had to stop buying US goods after my sister's Corvair burned up its engine on the Connecticut Turnpike. Paul XL fuselage Do not archive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:56 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith builders chat tonight From: "leinad" Just a reminder, chat tonight at the usual place: http://chat.iahu.ca/ at the usual time 8:00 PM EST Typically some of us have remained on until around 10 Oclock. Dan -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126496#126496 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:02 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: 601 down in Mojave / Rosemond Craig, Thanks for the info. I was in the field with the reserves for the last 2 weeks, and missed a bunch on the list >>Yes, Rick Pitcher reported this back on July 14th. Search for "First >>flight... not so good", message number 48014. Unfortunately the links to the >>pictures he attached have expired. VR/ Brandon Tucker Assistant Flight Operations Manager Q GENERAL ATOMICS - AERONAUTICAL SYSTEMS Gray Butte/El Mirage Flight Operations Center 73 El Mirage Airport Rd El Mirage/Adelanto Phone: 760.388.8253 Fax : 760. 388.8155 Brandon.Tucker@uav.com --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:18 PM PST US From: SABorns@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith builders chat tonight Hi All, I am a new Zenith 701 builder. How do you connect to the chat room? Thanks, Steve In a message dated 7/30/2007 7:48:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, leinad@hughes.net writes: _http://chat.iahu.ca/_ (http://chat.iahu.ca/) Steven Bornstein 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:36 PM PST US From: 4rcsimmons@comcast.net (Rich Simmons) Subject: Zenith-List: Leveling - (Again) NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_11077_1185842212_2 NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26029_1185823571_0-- ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:32 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project Hello Patrick: I wish the the very best and hope you overcome this situation. You are a very patient man if you are "not angry". This is so wrong on about seventeen different levels. Again, the very best, Randy L. Thwing, Las vegas > > Last week while I was at Oshkosh, a couple of my neighbors came over to my > house to talk with my wife. > > They really scared my wife. :( > I'm not angry ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:49 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Trust me I have the e-mails and pictures to prove he is a liar. And, I am not asking for anything other than my money back. My next door lawyer said I had zero problem. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: robert stone To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Larry, I am not a lawyer so I may be wrong but it seems to me you are leaving yourself open to a lawsuit for saying this guy is dishonest. I believe everything you have said on your web site but it's not a good idea to say the things you have said unless you can prove it all. I guess this fool you got the machine from is too stupid to realize that the aviation comunity is small and his actions will come back to bite him in the ass sure as hell. What he has cheated you out of is nothing compared to the money he will lose in profits from prospective customers who see your web site. People like him do not last and he will go belly up in the end. I have heard of so many people getting cheated doing business via the internet that I do not buy anything that I cannot see and make sure it works except from a well known source like Aircraft Spruce & Specialty. As a matter of fact, I just ordered a handheld aviation radio from them and it did not work so I called and was told to package it up and they would arrange for UPS to pick it up on monday, today. A new one will be sent out to me also today. I have bought many items from Spruce and never had a problem with any product and I know if I do they will do right by me. Tracy Stone Harker Heights, Tx ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: LRM To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; Vaughn Carl ; Paul Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:16 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Made in the USA Being that Plasma cutters are a tool that we sometimes use on aircraft I think we can talk about this. Sometimes we are slow to learn, I already knew this but had a brain fart and strayed. If it cost much money, say a $100 or more, don't buy it if it doesn't say "Made in the USA" on it. I just bought a Chinese Plasma cutter off e-bay, over $600 in total. It's called a Plasmadyn from PlasmadynUSA. I just sent the third one back. All were DOA. Now the guy says he will refund me my money less shipping and a %25 restocking fee. Well needless to say I've filed a protest with PayPal, I expect to get a full refund. No working machine delivered. However being the vengeful Ass Hole I am and somewhat of a web page builder I made a page for this guy plus figured out how to put a page link on the e-bay feedback. Take a look and be warned "Buy made in the USA". www.skyhawg.com/plas.htm. Oh yes, please pass the link and word. And go to all the other forums you use and warn them. I offered him a chance out if he would give me a full refund I would kill the site, but I guess he's too dumb to take me up on it. What he doesn't realize is that even after I get my refund, the site stays up. And, of course I fixed it where every search engine will find it in about 10 days. You think I'm pissed? Larry, www.SkyHawg.com, N1345L href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.