---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/03/07: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:07 AM - Re: Shock absorbers for HDS (chrisoz@bmail.com.au) 2. 03:19 AM - MapSource Waypoint Inputs (Ken Arnold) 3. 05:17 AM - Re: Corvair engines (cbaron66) 4. 06:08 AM - Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project (Frank Derfler) 5. 08:06 AM - Re: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 (Tim Juhl) 6. 08:32 AM - Re: Re: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 () 7. 10:56 AM - Re: Corvair engines (PatrickW) 8. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Corvair engines (Craig Payne) 9. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Corvair engines (Gary Boothe) 10. 11:13 AM - Re: Corvair engines (Diogenes) 11. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Corvair engines (Crvsecretary@aol.com) 12. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Corvair engines (raymondj) 13. 11:38 AM - Re: Control cables for 601XL (David Downey) 14. 12:05 PM - Re: 10% from Wicks (John Marzulli) 15. 12:22 PM - Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 (Jeff Small) 16. 12:44 PM - Re: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 (Craig Payne) 17. 02:25 PM - Looking for a 701 (Tommy Walker) 18. 02:38 PM - Re: Looking for a 701 (Joemotis@aol.com) 19. 02:38 PM - Re: Looking for a 701 (Gig Giacona) 20. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: Corvair engines (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 21. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 (n801bh@netzero.com) 22. 04:49 PM - Re: Corvair engines (leinad) 23. 06:58 PM - Re: Corvair engines (kevinbonds) 24. 08:34 PM - Re: Corvair engines (PatrickW) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:57 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Shock absorbers for HDS From: chrisoz@bmail.com.au Hello Peter, I honestly would not bother to go for the shock absorbers. While the conventional gear boxes do stick out a little, the installation is undramatic and it works really well. I also can take huge amounts of punishment (I know, I had a few hard contacts learning to fly my HD taildragger). A motorcycle shock absorber (what about the spring?) would require proper hard points in the wing and good load distribution, plus you would want it as light as possible. To go for that would be opening a can of worms... The spring gear is an option, but 10 kg penality over the conventional design, and a bit tricky to fit. You would most probably end up with a cluncky spring under the plane, even worse than the two gear boxes. Greetings from Oz Chris > Hello Gang, > I am evaluating different scenarios for my HDS taildragger gear. I don't > like the > idea of bulky gear parts sticking out of my leading edge. > When strolling through the archives I also found out, that installing the > bungee > gear is not considered a piece of cake for most builders. > the alternative would be a Grove gear. But these also have the reputation > of being > hard to adapt to a 601. plus they are quite heavy. > > OTOH, I wouldn't want to deviate too much from the proven original design. > My thoughts > are of vehicle (motorcycle?) shock absorbers to replace the ole bungee > assembly. > > Has any of the gentlemen here heard or seen of anything similar already > done? > any thoughts appreciated > > Greetings from Germany > Peter > HDS TDO > tail done, Wings in progress > > www.petersprojekt42.de > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:43 AM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Zenith-List: MapSource Waypoint Inputs Listers, Anyone aware of data base to retrieve airport Lat/Lon, msl, ID etc to download to MapSource as waypoints? Manual data entry is very time consuming. Many thanks, Ken ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines From: "cbaron66" I don't have a dog in this fight but, have you ever noticed how much emotion there is on both sides of the Corvair fence? I find this ironic because every type of training you will ever get in aviation requires you to remove emotion from the decision making processes. Just my .o2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127305#127305 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:25 AM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith-List: Neighbor's tried to "Intervene" on my project Noel said, "Perhaps the thing to do is get hin to try a 601 sometime... " >From my personal experience with four senior airline captains, he would never be able get a 601 *near* the runway. They float, flinch, fumble, and ...ummm... do not do well. I've heard CFIs relate the same stories about these guys who want to get "checked out" in a 172. The 5th airline captain I flew with was a former Navy pilot who flew A4s and A6s off of (and back onto) carriers. He kisses the 601 in like a baby. --FJD -- Frank Derfler -- Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com - Pilots learn about flights to great places at www.FLYINFLORIDA.COM -Boaters get the Best Information on Cruising the Florida Keys at www.KEYSBOATER.com -For the Best Gifts for Guys see my www.GREATGUYBOOKS.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 From: "Tim Juhl" For Joe, What is the correct length for the top tubes? I bought a Jab FWF kit this year which I assume is up to date but I would like to confirm that I have the correct mount. As far as the engine "rising" in flight - I suspect that is a possibility - indeed I have seen engines do a lot of wiggling on their mounts - I guess I would be concerned about clearance with the cowling both where the prop shaft passes through and in general. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127323#127323 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:26 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 It may be a big hassle at this point for some, but it seems that before the engine is attached to the motor mount, one could bolt the mount to the firewall and using a smart level, get some very accurate readings. The angle formed by the top and bottom mounts on the right side relative to the top longeron would be 90 degrees if the thrust line is zeroed out. The same is obviously true for the left side. Wouldn't this take the guesswork out of "how much is the engine weight causing the rubber dampeners to sag?" How about opinions form those on the list who have lots more experience? I'll be wrestling with this beast soon and would appreciate some advance advice from the old heads out there. Dred ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines From: "PatrickW" Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? Fresh from the Nitrider's shop. Paperwork says it is Nitrided. But how do you *know*...? Patrick 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127340#127340 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:45 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines > Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? Well, fresh from the shop mine was covered with a fine "ash" that I had to remove with WD-40 and ultra-fine sand paper. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:19 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines Factory nitrided cranks have an "ampersand" stamp on the end. I don't know if your machinist would have followed suit. Gary Boothe Cool, CA 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, Tail done, wings done, working on c-section -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? Fresh from the Nitrider's shop. Paperwork says it is Nitrided. But how do you *know*...? Patrick 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127340#127340 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines From: "Diogenes" Unless they've already polished the journals, they should have a dull gray appearance. Check out the fourth picture down on . Otherwise, I guess you'll have to take their word for it... PatrickW wrote: > Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? > > Fresh from the Nitrider's shop. Paperwork says it is Nitrided. > > But how do you *know*...? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127346#127346 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:01 AM PST US From: Crvsecretary@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines Find an area that you can safely scratch with the corner of a file. If you can file a (tiny) groove into the metal, it is NOT nitrided. If the file glances off, it is hard and you got your money's worth. In a message dated 8/3/2007 12:57:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, pwhoyt@yahoo.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "PatrickW" Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? Fresh from the Nitrider's shop. Paperwork says it is Nitrided. But how do you *know*...? Patrick 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127340#127340 http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:36 AM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines I thought nitriding increased the hardness of the surface. Could it be tested for hardness? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "PatrickW" Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:55 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines > > Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? > > Fresh from the Nitrider's shop. Paperwork says it is Nitrided. > > But how do you *know*...? > > Patrick > 601XL/Corvair > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127340#127340 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:06 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Control cables for 601XL Hi Paul; One of the issues involved with sizing control cables is strain (stretch) before reaching breaking loads. You want the control system to be as inflexible as possible because flutter is inherent in any less than optimally stiff system. Sometime read the account of what happened when the folks back at Wright Patterson labs in Dayton got hold of their first Zero during WWII. paulrod36@msn.com wrote: Sort of a side issue----- While I wouldn't advocate using string or safety wire for control cables, it does seem a bit of overkill to use a cable stronger than the max gross weight of the aircraft. It's not possible, even under high adrenalin situations, to exert anywhere near breaking strength of the cable, particularly sitting in the cockpit. If anything, you'd rip the control surface apart first, assuming you could maintain that much air load on the part. Same goes for turnbuckles. Do we really need 900 pound breaking-strength turnbuckles on an elevator we could put, at most, 200 pounds of backstick pull? Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair Canopy getting close to done ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Winger To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:00 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Control cables for 601XL Juan, If you look at my first post, you'll see that I did call Zenith and that stimulated my question to the list. The person in the shop was almost positive they were using stainless steel. Obviously, I didn't get my answer from the designer or an engineer. Maybe that is my next step (or I can just use galvanized to be safe). Thanks, Larry Winger check with zenith but I beleieve I used GLAV 7x19 with 2000Lb strength versus SS7x19 with 1750 lbs strength. Jaun -----Original Message----- >From: Larry Winger < larrywinger@gmail.com> >Sent: Aug 1, 2007 12:30 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Control cables for 601XL > >I'm planning to purchase my cable from Aircraft Spruce, so I'm making an >assumption that it is aviation grade as you described. If so, any thoughts >on stainless steel in place of the specified galvanized? > >Larry Winger >601XL/Corvair >Tustin, CA > > >On 7/31/07, Juan Vega wrote: >> >> >> use the 7x19 aviation grade. they are grease impregnated. >> >> Juan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: lwinger < larrywinger@gmail.com> >> >Sent: Jul 31, 2007 6:29 PM >> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Zenith-List: Control cables for 601XL >> > >> > >> >The plans (6-B-23) say 1/8" 7x19 Galvanized control cables. The folks in >> the shop at Zenith say they are using stainless steel. >> > >> >Stainless steel makes sense to me as well. Any reason not to use it? >> > >> >-------- >> >Larry Winger >> >Tustin, CA >> >601XL/Corvair from scratch >> >Control surfaces and wing spars complete >> >Making wing ribs >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Read this topic online here: >> > >> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126750#126750 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:40 PM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 10% from Wicks Thanks for the heads up! Inspired by June 07's "Kitplanes", I used the discount to order sound proofing material. -John in Seattle On 8/1/07, ROBERT SCEPPA wrote: > > > > > Just a reminder: There's a 10% discount and free > > shipping until Friday of this week from Wicks > > Aircraft.....Do not archive > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -Airplane The Movie ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:06 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 >It may be a big hassle at this point for some, but it seems that before the engine >is attached to the motor mount, one could bolt the mount to the firewall and >using a smart level, get some very accurate readings. The angle formed by the >top and bottom mounts on the right side relative to the top longeron would >be 90 degrees if the thrust line is zeroed out. The same is obviously true for >the left side. Wouldn't this take the guesswork out of "how much is the engine >weight causing the rubber dampeners to sag?" +++ Dr. Ed, If builders are concerned, this should be an avenue that might be pursued. Be alert that the mount, without the engine attached, is very 'plastic' and due to heat factors while welding the pads for the rubber mounts (Jabiru calls them cushions) might be on four different planes. Accurate measurements might be impossible but even the old Mk I Eyeball will tell you if closer investigation is needed. Knowing the quality of parts out of the US Jabiru distributors/dealers presently makes an aberration unlikely. I have in front of me a drawing "Jabiru 3300 Engine Mount W/Assy CH601 Zodiac" from Jamie Cook, Product Support Supervisor, along with an e-mail to Fred Hulen about problems early 3300-into-601 builders were having with offsets in the mount. Fred and I, along with Stan Challgren, had three of the first four FWF kits into the US (in my knowledge). Fred was further ahead in construction at the time and had tried a trial fit of the mount to his fuselage when I received an urgent e-mail that the mount had some upthrust but no right thrust. What started was a dialogue that got Fred and me new mounts. This was at the time that Jabiru was removing the old west coast distributor and turning to Pete Krotje to instill a new trust in the product here in the States. Though we had not purchased the engines (very early serial numbers) from Pete he was more than helpful. The drawing shows dimensions that the 'new' factory welding jig was designed to follow. None of the tubes have dimensions on them but the one overall measurement that you might be able to use to check would be to measure from the top right firewall pad to a line that intersects a plane through the top and bottom right engine pads at a 90 degree angle. That dimension should be ~ 244.5mm. CAVEAT: if Jab has changed the mount since the 11/12/2000 of the e-mail then all bets are off. We were told that the first mounts were outsourced and that led to the quality control issue. Joe in Oshkosh, were your mount top tubes really 25mm longer than designed? This would result in a downthrust angle the nature of 8 to 10 degrees. Al Beyers, can you confirm? The new mounts we received had about 2 degrees of downthrust, and about 2 to 2.5 of right thrust which fit my old R/C modeling designing habits nicely. BTW, Jerry Hey and others who have not seen Jabiru 'cushions' or experienced a Jab running - be assured the mounts are quite firm (mine have sagged with four years of use but then grandma says that too), and the 2200 and 3300 series motors do not vibrate, they purr. My CFI during a flight review last week simply could not believe we were flying behind a non-certificated engine. Jerry, don't take that personally, you were honest enough to say you had little knowledge of Jabs and members who go through opinions after opinions cloaked as facts applaud you. I was just yankin' your chain... ..and, who is this WW? Walks on Water? Willy Wonka? Craig, are you planning on anchoring your nose wheel to the garage floor when you hoist the prop hub with scale attached? If you don't then won't the figures be misleading? How much from 'give' in the cushions and how much in lifting the front of the fuselage? To fine tune thrust measurements for you particular installation (not all are going to get the magic 13 degree firewall tilt) you can use the shims provided by Jabiru for that purpose. After I had my engine mounted there was talk on the JabbaChat Newsletter out of OZ about reversing the male/female cushions which resulted in smoother running. I think reversing them might also make the use of shims a bit easier but don't' hold me to it. I make adjustments for compression of lower mount cushions by making C-washers of .050, .093, or .125 stock and after loosening the bottom through-firewall-from-longeron nut just slip them between mount pad and firewall. All you need is a friend to gently apply some upforce to the prop hub. Doing things this way you can really fine-tune thrust adjustments if that's your bag. I have about 3/16 inch clearance between spinner backplate and cowl. If the engine thrashed around too much I think the marks would be there to confirm that but only bugs and a few stone chips are present after 300 + hours. And I do throw the old girl around a bit (the a/c, not grandma). Pete Krotje, if you're monitoring and have a few minutes could you please correct any misinformation so this thrust question can be laid to rest. In closing: Caleb. I met Caleb at OSH last week. Nice young man, very polite and kind enough to entertain an old customer. Now whether he has an engineer's degree or not, I think we should give him a chance to learn how to relate to customers who need reassurance on some construction detail. If his answer is not to your liking, ask to speak with Roger. Best yet, find a builder that you trust and has been flying a while. Get to know him real well. Odds are that if his a/c is working and you can sit in it and offer to buy some gas for a ride, then maybe your Zenith engineer might become a lifelong friend. And your questions get answered over coffee or beer. >How about opinions form those on the list who have lots more experience? I'll be >wrestling with this beast soon and would appreciate some advance advice from >the old heads out there. Well, though I'm usually referred to as 'the old fart' I'll take Ed's description as a compliment. Hope a little bit of this helps Jab builders. CAVU Jeff Small N6322T HDS/3300 "You're not building a jet fighter." Chris Heintz ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:47 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 > ...and, who is this WW? Walks on Water? Willy Wonka? WW is William Wynne - the Corvair aircraft guy > Craig, are you planning on anchoring your nose wheel to the garage floor when you hoist the prop hub with scale attached? If you don't then won't the figures be misleading? How much from 'give' in the cushions and how much in lifting the front of the fuselage? I was going to measure the absolute angles of the engine's top and the top longeron and calculate the relative difference. This is what I did with the engine only supported by the mount. I suppose this may include some flex in the fuselage but it sort of simulates what happens in flight. I suppose I'll "mike" the supported and unsupported distance from the mount plate on the engine to the pin's back on the mount (for all four positions). That would measure just the rubber bushings' movement/compression/expansion. But I don't know if I will get all this done before I leave for vacation in Norway. What is interesting to me is I have mentioned this issue on the Yahoo Jabiru engines list and Pete from Jabiru USA (source of the mount) has had no comment. I know he is "present" because he has responded to other posts on other issues. I'll probably contact him direct when I have more numbers. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:24 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Looking for a 701 From: "Tommy Walker" Listers, A gentleman called me yesterday wanting to know if there was a builder who would build him a 701. I mentioned the quick build kit, but he wasnt interested. He wants a complete ready-to-fly plane. If you know anyone whos interested, please let me know and I will pass the information along to the man. Also, if anyone has one for sale, I will relay that info as well. Thanks, Tommy Walker in Alabama twalker at cableone.net 256-835-6610 Do Not Archive -------- Tommy Walker Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127377#127377 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:24 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Looking for a 701 Barnstormers J.D. Motis Do not Archive http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Looking for a 701 From: "Gig Giacona" Google is your friend. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-34,GGLJ:en&q=Zenith+701+for+sale -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127379#127379 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:55 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines I have talked to a couple of nitriders and common practice is to nitride batches of 10. But they take a bad crank and cut it into 5 or 6 pieces then put one of the pieces in the batch they are going to nitrite. When the batch is finished the cut the scrap piece and measure the depth of the nitriting to insure it was deep enough. A crank should never be nitrited and then ground it should be done before. When the crank comes back it will like it is burnt and be really dusty. You should then take it to a machine shop and have it polished and checked for true again as 10% of the cranks that get nitriting warp. And you should never ever take a file to a journal to see if it scratches, the nitriters know what they are doing and you will know if it has been done just by looking at it. If you send a clean shiny one in you will be amazed at what you get back. And as for the list member that said we shouldn't be passionate about what we are doing I totally disagree. I love what I do and the day I become complacent about it is the day I find something else to do. My passion shows in my work. Just my 02 Jeff I thought nit riding increased the hardness of the surface. Could it be tested for hardness? http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:52 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Thrust angle in an XL with a Jabiru 3300 Just my two cents worth, this might and might not apply but since alot o f the Zenith line uses a similar concept things might translate over. On my 801 the plans call for 2-3 degrees to the right to compansate for P factor, Zenith calls for the crank to be parallel to the fuselage refere nce line, ie, no down thrust. So, here I was left scratching my head as I was designing my engine mount for the V-8 Ford, and so I head over to the airport and measure every single engine plane on the ramp to see if there is common ground. There is no standard because some planes cant t he rudder, some set angle of incidence of the horizontal stab/ elevator differently, yada,yada,yada. As I was measuring the last Cessna I found up drives the owner of the FBO, and politely asked my interest engine m ounting offsets. I explain I am building a Zenith 801 with a rather larg e engine in it and was about to fabricate a mount and was rounding up as much data as I could. He first answer was " Oh, your the idiot that's g onna put a V-8 in an experimental" , his next comment was, hey, follow m e back to my office and I will call a neighbor who might know the answer . Well, next thing I know I am speaking to Frank Christenson, who also l ives here in Jackson Hole, This guy designed the Husky, Christen Eagle a nd alot of other planes. I explained my HP, prop size and weight of the plane, within about 5 seconds he said," try 1.5 degrees to the right and 1 degree down. Anyone of his caliber with that fast of a response was g ospel to me. The right offset is perfect but I could have gone to 1.5 or maybe 2 degrees down cause the plane flies slightly nose up. About two degrees of flaps cures that though. In closing my gut feeling for the 60 1 would be 2-2.5 down and 2 to the right. YMMV..... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- wrote: It may be a big hassle at this point for some, but it seems that before the engine is attached to the motor mount, one could bolt the mount to t he firewall and using a smart level, get some very accurate readings. Th e angle formed by the top and bottom mounts on the right side relative t o the top longeron would be 90 degrees if the thrust line is zeroed out. The same is obviously true for the left side. Wouldn't this take the gu esswork out of "how much is the engine weight causing the rubber dampene rs to sag?" How about opinions form those on the list who have lots more experience? I'll be wrestling with this beast soon and would appreciate some advanc e advice from the old heads out there. Dred ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

Just my two cents worth, this might and might not apply but sin ce alot of the Zenith line uses a similar concept things might translate over. On my 801 the plans call for 2-3 degrees to the right to compansa te for P factor, Zenith calls for the crank to be parallel to the fusela ge reference line, ie, no down thrust. So, here I was left scratchi ng my head as I was designing my engine mount for the V-8 Ford, and so I head over to the airport and measure every single engine plane on the r amp to see if there is common ground.  There is no standard because some planes cant the rudder, some set angle of incidence of the horizon tal stab/ elevator differently, yada,yada,yada.  As I was measuring the last Cessna I found up drives the owner of the FBO, and polite ly asked my interest engine mounting offsets. I explain I am building a Zenith 801 with a rather large engine in it and was about to fabricate a mount and was rounding up as much data as I could. He first answer was& nbsp;" Oh, your the idiot that's gonna put a V-8 in an experimental " , his next comment was, hey, follow me back to my office and I wi ll call a neighbor who might know the answer. Well, next thing I kn ow I am speaking to Frank Christenson, who also lives here in Jackson Ho le, This guy designed the Husky, Christen Eagle and alot of other planes . I explained my HP, prop size and weight of the plane, within about 5 s econds he said," try 1.5 degrees to the right and 1 degree dow n. Anyone of his caliber with that fast of a response was gospel to me. The right offset is perfect but I could have gone to 1.5 or maybe 2 degr ees down cause the plane flies slightly nose up. About two degrees of fl aps cures that though. In closing my gut feeling for the 601 would be 2- 2.5 down and 2 to the right.  YMMV.....

do not archive

Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com

-- <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
--> Zen ith-List message posted by: <dredmoody@cox.net> ;

It may be a big hassle at th is point for some, but it seems that& nbsp;before the engine is attached to the& nbsp;motor mount, one could bolt the mount  to the firewall and using a smart&nb sp;level, get some very accurate readings.  ;The angle formed by the top and bott om mounts on the right side relative  to the top longeron would be 90 degre es if the thrust line is zeroed out.& nbsp;The same is obviously true for the&nb sp;left side. Wouldn't this take the guess work out of "how much is the engine&n bsp;weight causing the rubber dampeners to  ;sag?"

How about opinions form those on& nbsp;the list who have lots more experienc e? I'll be wrestling with this beast  soon and would appreciate some advance adv ice from the old heads out there.

D ======================== sp;       - The Zenith-List ;the many List utilities such as the  ======================== ========================          - NEW MA ontent now also available via the Web  ======================== ==============
________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines From: "leinad" I agree with Patrick that there is room for suspicion when having work of this type done. It isn't an "either or" proposition. It's a matter of quality, and how do we the uninitiated have of telling if it's a good job, to the proper depth and hardness or not. Case in point, when I got my crankshaft back from the nitride shop (same shop WW uses) it looked just like the other posters describe, ash covered with a black burned appearance under the ash. When I put the crank on the lathe to polish it up and test it for straightness oil actually spun from the oil passages. So I had to wonder, how "heat treated" could it be if it didn't even get hot enough to burn the oil out? Well at least I know it's straight. Dan ( 601XL/Corvair from Plans ) > Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? > > Fresh from the Nitrider's shop. Paperwork says it is Nitrided. > > But how do you *know*...? > > Patrick > 601XL/Corvair > -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127391#127391 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:08 PM PST US From: "kevinbonds" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Corvair engines Greg Please don't take offense to what I am about to say but, from the content of your email I can tell that you are new to the Corvair movement. William has gotten no money from me, besides the cost of a conversion manual. I am not a friend of his. I am also a real person. If you had been looking in on the goings on, over the last several years, I doubt you would feel the same way. There is a lot of history behind the corvaircraft. It is easy to look in on this, at this late stage, and judge. But let me assure you that there are a lot of really smart people involved with the movement that didn't think that nitriding was necessary-and it wasn't for about 45 years, give or take. The engine has evolved into a more powerful, therefore more demanding, powerplant. Once it became apparent the the fatigue life of the crank was being pushed to the limit it was quickly nipped in the bud (Mark Langford was the driving force, but William acted very fast and took the helm) I would take what you're A&P said with a grain of salt. This has been an ongoing process, and expense and complexity have always been important considerations. William has had his faults, but a lack of consideration of safety has ABSOLUTELY NOT been one of them. Only those who have witnessed first hand the on going R&D, know the extent to which that last statement is true. In my opinion "the other guys" are a gamble. I know exactly what to expect from William-good and not-so good (historically long wait). Kevin Bonds Nashville TN 601XL Plans building. http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Kendall Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 12:13 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair engines Thanks to everyone for your comments.No one really addressed the absence of nitriding and why it took so long but I spoke to the A&P that services my 172 and he was really surprised that anyone would have sold engines without nitrided cranks. Stay with certified engines he says to avoid these self-professed experts who don't follow "best practices" in the industry and wait for an engine to fail to figure out what was obvious to any experienced A&P. One thing that bothered me but that I now think was just a setup is IP. I don't want to encourage any kind of patent violations so I tried to contact Wynne and never got a response just like my other messages. This tells me taht all the hoopla over that is just BS. If anyone has evidence that they are doing something wrong, please pass it on because I'm pretty close to ordering one of their engines. Seems like Microsoft has good company in thinking that competition is wrong from some of the e-mails I got. I haven't seen any patent or anything on Wynne's site so I have to wonder how much of this is being directed by wyyne hismelf to protect his monopoly. If he really invented anything, wouldn't he have patented it especially since he seems to make so much money on the engines? _____ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:38 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corvair engines From: "PatrickW" I've seen exactly one crankshaft in my entire life. The one I personally got from a '67 Corvair. I'm learning a lot here, doing everything as careful as I can and listening to what other people with more experience say they've successfully done. I took my crankshaft to the machine shop for magnaflux/tapping/regrind and nitriding & polishing. After about a week the machine shop called me and said the machine work was done, and they'd nitride it as soon as they filled out a full batch for the nitride process. The guy said that nitriding was expensive and they liked to wait until they have several crankshafts that they could do in the same batch. Fine with me - no hurry - I've planned ahead and have plenty of other stuff to do. I called them about a month later and they said "it's ready, come get it". The crank was wrapped in a clear plastic bag, supported on a thick foam pad, and in a tough cardboard box sealed with plastic straps. I opened the box & looked at the crank and put a mic on it to measure for the regrind, which checked out fine. The crank was clean and oiled, presumably to prevent rust. Paperwork said both "nitride" and "polish". I have to take them at their word that it was indeed nitrided. Looking at it, I can't tell one way or another. My gut feeling say's it's fine, and I'm going to go with it, but I'm one of those guys who tries to know with 100% certainty, and sometimes that just isn't possible. I *think* I remember my crank having kind of a "goldish yellowish" tint to it when I pulled it out of the junkyard engine. Probably from the oil? Now it's more of a darker gray color. Not sure if that's from nitriding, or from a good cleaning. Pretty sure it's fine. Almost certain, the more I think about it. Just jotting down what I'm thinking about - maybe it'll help the next guy to know what to expect. Patrick 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127422#127422 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.