Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:08 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (jetboy)
2. 06:09 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (Juan Vega)
3. 06:26 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (Jerry Hey)
4. 07:03 AM - Re: 701 landing issues (Paul Tipton)
5. 08:37 AM - 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (ZodieRocket)
6. 09:37 AM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest ()
7. 09:41 AM - Firewall on 601 XL (AZFlyer)
8. 12:09 PM - Fuel Sender Sealant (DaveG601XL)
9. 12:18 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Gary Gower)
10. 12:29 PM - Re: Firewall on 601 XL (Bryan Martin)
11. 12:32 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Bryan Martin)
12. 12:38 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Ron Lalonde)
13. 12:40 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Paul Riedlinger)
14. 01:11 PM - new thread (Zed Smith)
15. 01:32 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Terry Fogelson)
16. 01:39 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Matt Ronics)
17. 02:01 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Gig Giacona)
18. 03:47 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (ZodieRocket)
19. 03:52 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Jerry Hey)
20. 04:00 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (ZodieRocket)
21. 04:16 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Jon Croke)
22. 04:36 PM - Re: Canopy weatherstrip (Jerry Goldberg)
23. 04:43 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (Edward Moody II)
24. 04:44 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Edward Moody II)
25. 04:46 PM - Re: new thread (Edward Moody II)
26. 04:59 PM - Re: new thread (Jaybannist@cs.com)
27. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: alumunum (Arthur Olechowski)
28. 06:17 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Juan Vega)
29. 06:17 PM - Re: Fuel Sender Sealant (Juan Vega)
30. 06:18 PM - Re: Canopy weatherstrip (Juan Vega)
31. 06:45 PM - Mid-Atlantic Zenith Gathering at the EAA Chapter 186 Fall Flyin and Cruisin (Jeff)
32. 07:09 PM - Fuel System Design (Ron Lendon)
33. 07:14 PM - Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest (ZodieRocket)
34. 08:30 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 (Richard Brantley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 701 landing issues |
Jerry 701s have been flying for over 20 years and I've never heard of one that
was constructed within the design parameters, that had any of the "handling problems"
you speak of.
The local Savanah here has had the front of the wing cut off and put the new leading
edge and VG kit on. They report it goes a lot faster - but if you are building
a 701 that aspect will not be your primary goal?
I guess with the 701 its easy to try both ways and cut the slat brackets off later
if thats what you like, as some have done, in the experimental category.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130219#130219
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| Subject: | Re: 701 landing issues |
as we discussed 7 months ago. VGs and slats do 2 separate things, Slats allow
for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch, VGs perform their task at less than 15%
AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and
under. The slat does its majic when you crank the stick back early to get
into G.eFFCT. for early take off. Crank too hard with a VG only and you will,
not might, but will stall. All rules are different for planes that fly faster
than 200 knts and higher than 18,000.
You will get verbal diahria from many of us on this subject, the above is the black
and white basic version. best just to read up on it.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
>Sent: Aug 21, 2007 11:33 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues
>
>
>
>On Aug 21, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Jerry Hey wrote:
>
>> . Here is the question--how do you all feel about eliminating the
>> slats and adding the VGs. Thanks, Jerry
>
>My 701 will have the VG's and no slats. Cruise speed will increase,
>fuel burn will be lower and landing the same. VG's worked great on
>our 601 HDS and expect the same with the 701.
>
>Stan
>N701VG (Reserved)
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 701 landing issues |
Thanks, I have searched archives with no luck. I know the thread
exists but so far I have not found the right search words. Jerry
On Aug 22, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Juan Vega wrote:
> <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
>
> as we discussed 7 months ago. VGs and slats do 2 separate things,
> Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch, VGs perform
> their task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs
> will stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does
> its majic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT.
> for early take off. Crank too hard with a VG only and you will,
> not might, but will stall. All rules are different for planes that
> fly faster than 200 knts and higher than 18,000.
> You will get verbal diahria from many of us on this subject, the
> above is the black and white basic version. best just to read up
> on it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stanley Challgren <challgren@mac.com>
>> Sent: Aug 21, 2007 11:33 PM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues
>>
>> <challgren@mac.com>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 21, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Jerry Hey wrote:
>>
>>> . Here is the question--how do you all feel about eliminating the
>>> slats and adding the VGs. Thanks, Jerry
>>
>> My 701 will have the VG's and no slats. Cruise speed will increase,
>> fuel burn will be lower and landing the same. VG's worked great on
>> our 601 HDS and expect the same with the 701.
>>
>> Stan
>> N701VG (Reserved)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 701 landing issues |
FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have slats
(150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different speeds? Yes.
It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601, it is a Zenith 701.
If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is something different. For
better or worse? Everyone will have a different opinion. I'm still
learning to fly my Zenith 701 and love it. No plans to "improve"
anything.
321PT
Message 5
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| Subject: | 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane and
you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If you fly
your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VG=92s will increase
performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However if you learn to
fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant to be flown you will
actually realize the performance of the slats and be able to perform and
exceed the stated #=92s for the aircraft. Most of us over the years have
seen the 701 perform at the Airshow in the ultralight field. Either with
the Rotax 582 or 912. This plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I
have personally seen a 5 ft departure, no magic was performed here, the
plane is fully capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a
matter of learning, can VG=92s make the 701 perform better in the hands
of
a pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they can=92t. Does removing
the
slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, it
removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne of 110mph
and with simple clean up of high drag area=92s such as streamlining the
struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at 95-100mph with the 912S
installed. Much more then that and your playing too close to the Vne,
removing the slats is considered a non approved modification by the
designer, plus he ahs a shutter every time you talk to him about it on
the 701 because he designed his wings and aircraft specifications with
the slats included.
What I=92m trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG route,
every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are selling the
VG=92s state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I don=92t dislike this
gentleman and believe heartily that VG=92s do have a service in other
designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane ( after all that is why
you built it ) isn=92t it? Why else would you build a 701 if it wasn=92t
for
the STOL characteristics. ( Well there is also it=92s graceful beauty).
Below is the meat of another post of which I agree with, I believe a 701
as designed is safer and far more capable then the altered version.
Nonetheless, you need to know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned
instructor in a 701. Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your
plane can perform, you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a
quick death as far as the 701 is concerned.
Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their task
at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will stall at a
lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does its magic when you
crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off.
Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall.
Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take off
in shorter distances then it already does don=92t you think that they
would be SHOWING it off at the Airshows? It already beats everything on
the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that they would love to
beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the sales they would
generate, and the awards)
Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far
better spent then on VG=92s. At least in the 701. But , you=92re the
builder
and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found on many
occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless of the truth.
Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes?
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues
FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have slats
(150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different speeds? Yes.
It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601, it is a Zenith 701.
If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is something different. For
better or worse? Everyone will have a different opinion. I'm still
learning to fly my Zenith 701 and love it. No plans to "improve"
anything.
321PT
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Zenith-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
8/22/2007 9:05 AM
8/22/2007 9:05 AM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees
AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought.....
Dred
Message 7
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| Subject: | Firewall on 601 XL |
List,
I am shopping for material for the engine side of the firewall to protect cabin
against fire. Can not find anything in our archives, and ACS sells several products,
some very expensive...however, does anybody have an opinion (stupid question)
as to "best material" for fire protection?
Appreciate your feedback.
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130269#130269
Message 8
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| Subject: | Fuel Sender Sealant |
I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders
in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got
done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or
tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender?
I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or
not. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done, engine next.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
Dred,
You forgot the :-) :-) :-) and the Do not Archive...
Remember to install them using the green scotchbrite and dont forget to install
a faucet pump over the fuselage to incrise wapor power :-) :-)
Good joke but no more please!
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees
AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought.....
Dred
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,
photos & more.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall on 601 XL |
The best material to use on the engine side of the firewall is sheet
steel. Coincidentally, that just happens to be what the firewall itself
is made of. I would leave the engine side of the firewall bare and put
some kind of light weight insulation on the cabin side to help keep
engine heat out of the cabin. Make sure to seal all penetrations through
the firewall with flame resistant materials. Here's a good article on
that subject.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
AZFlyer wrote:
>
> List,
>
> I am shopping for material for the engine side of the firewall to protect cabin
against fire. Can not find anything in our archives, and ACS sells several
products, some very expensive...however, does anybody have an opinion (stupid
question) as to "best material" for fire protection?
>
> Appreciate your feedback.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
> 601 XL, 3300, Dynon
>
--
Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
Two words: JATO bottles. :)
dredmoody@cox.net wrote:
>
> If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to
15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a
thought.....
>
> Dred
>
--
Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
Beta Max tapes??? Sure wish I knew where to get one of those machines. I was
one of the many that have tons of those tapes and no machine to transfer
them to another media with....LOL
Keep you eye out for me....REALLY
ps: I am building to plans....... until I become an aircraft designer!!
Ron
>
>Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane and
>you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If you fly
>your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VGs will increase
>performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However if you learn to
>fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant to be flown you will
>actually realize the performance of the slats and be able to perform and
>exceed the stated #s for the aircraft. Most of us over the years have
>seen the 701 perform at the Airshow in the ultralight field. Either with
>the Rotax 582 or 912. This plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I
>have personally seen a 5 ft departure, no magic was performed here, the
>plane is fully capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a
>matter of learning, can VGs make the 701 perform better in the hands of
>a pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they cant. Does removing the
>slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, it
>removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne of 110mph
>and with simple clean up of high drag areas such as streamlining the
>struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at 95-100mph with the 912S
>installed. Much more then that and your playing too close to the Vne,
>removing the slats is considered a non approved modification by the
>designer, plus he ahs a shutter every time you talk to him about it on
>the 701 because he designed his wings and aircraft specifications with
>the slats included.
>
>What Im trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG route,
>every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are selling the
>VGs state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I dont dislike this
>gentleman and believe heartily that VGs do have a service in other
>designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane ( after all that is why
>you built it ) isnt it? Why else would you build a 701 if it wasnt for
>the STOL characteristics. ( Well there is also its graceful beauty).
>Below is the meat of another post of which I agree with, I believe a 701
>as designed is safer and far more capable then the altered version.
>Nonetheless, you need to know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned
>instructor in a 701. Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your
>plane can perform, you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a
>quick death as far as the 701 is concerned.
>
>Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their task
>at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will stall at a
>lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does its magic when you
>crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off.
>Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall.
>
>Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take off
>in shorter distances then it already does dont you think that they
>would be SHOWING it off at the Airshows? It already beats everything on
>the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that they would love to
>beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the sales they would
>generate, and the awards)
>
>Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far
>better spent then on VGs. At least in the 701. But , youre the builder
>and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found on many
>occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless of the truth.
>Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes?
>
>
>Mark Townsend
>Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
>HYPERLINK
>"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
>HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton
>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:59 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues
>
>FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have slats
>(150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different speeds? Yes.
>It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601, it is a Zenith 701.
>If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is something different. For
>better or worse? Everyone will have a different opinion. I'm still
>learning to fly my Zenith 701 and love it. No plans to "improve"
>anything.
>321PT
>
>
>"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com
>/Navigator?Zenith-List
>"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>8/22/2007 9:05 AM
>
>
>8/22/2007 9:05 AM
>
_________________________________________________________________
Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel
http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fuel Sender Sealant |
Wear clothes you done like. Once it gets on your clothes, it will never
come off! Also, use it in a well ventilated area. Pro-seal stinks to high
heaven.
Paul Riedlinger
paulried@rogers.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL
Sent: August-22-07 3:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant
I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel
senders in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I
just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have
any hint or tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the
fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before
tightening it down or not. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done, engine next.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292
Message 14
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|
do not archive
Does one need more than one set of scales to weigh a blimp with VGs & slats?
Kindest regards to all,
Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender Sealant |
Second that part about wearing clothes you don't mind
not wearing again. I have used it on helicopter
transmissions to seal input and output quills so that
they wouldn't seep oil. You can smooth it out after
it has partially cured by using your finger and
saliva. I am sure there are MDS that warn of all the
dangers of doing that. It never affected me while I
was doing it, and there have been no ill results yet.
Terry
--- DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> wrote:
> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>
> I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that
> comes with ZAC's fuel senders in lieu of the
> Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal).
> I just got done ordering some off of Van's web site.
> Does anybody here have any hint or tips on using
> this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the
> fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this
> stuff cure a bit before tightening it down or not.
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> David Gallagher
> 601 XL, tail and wings completed,
> fueslage almost done, engine next.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
As a side point, I think it petty that these people should charge money for such
simple things as VGs. Why not just share the idea and give instructions for
other builders (ie in the spirit of the movement). I see no engineering or data
points to substantiate that these things are even adequately applied to the
design.
Snake oil for airplanes?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130308#130308
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
http://search.ebay.com/betamax_W0QQfclZ4QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1
rlalonde wrote:
> Beta Max tapes??? Sure wish I knew where to get one
> of those machines. -
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130310#130310
Message 18
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| Subject: | Fuel Sender Sealant |
Keep in mind it's other name is BLACK GOO OF DEATH and it is well
deserved. I use it on all fuel senders I install, and I really hate the
stuff.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president@can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Riedlinger
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant
<paulried@rogers.com>
Wear clothes you done like. Once it gets on your clothes, it will never
come off! Also, use it in a well ventilated area. Pro-seal stinks to
high
heaven.
Paul Riedlinger
paulried@rogers.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL
Sent: August-22-07 3:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant
<david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel
senders in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal).
I
just got done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here
have
any hint or tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on
the
fuel sender? I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before
tightening it down or not. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, tail and wings completed,
fueslage almost done, engine next.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292
8/22/2007 9:05 AM
8/22/2007 9:05 AM
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
To Mark and every one else who responded, thanks. I will take your
advice to hitch a ride in a slated 701. I live in northeast Indiana
but I would drive all day for a demo ride. It is true that I have
never flown a true STOL aircraft so I do have much to learn. My
background is strictly tail draggers , two Luscombes and a Tailwind
and mostly off dirt. Just 300 hrs. I have no Cessna time. Jerry
On Aug 22, 2007, at 11:35 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
> Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane
> and you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If
> you fly your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VG=92s will
> increase performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However
> if you learn to fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant
> to be flown you will actually realize the performance of the slats
> and be able to perform and exceed the stated #=92s for the aircraft.
> Most of us over the years have seen the 701 perform at the Airshow
> in the ultralight field. Either with the Rotax 582 or 912. This
> plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I have personally seen a 5
> ft departure, no magic was performed here, the plane is fully
> capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a matter of
> learning, can VG=92s make the 701 perform better in the hands of a
> pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they can=92t. Does removing
> the slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does,
> it removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne
> of 110mph and with simple clean up of high drag area=92s such as
> streamlining the struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at
> 95-100mph with the 912S installed. Much more then that and your
> playing too close to the Vne, removing the slats is considered a
> non approved modification by the designer, plus he ahs a shutter
> every time you talk to him about it on the 701 because he designed
> his wings and aircraft specifications with the slats included.
>
>
> What I=92m trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG
> route, every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are
> selling the VG=92s state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I don=92t
> dislike this gentleman and believe heartily that VG=92s do have a
> service in other designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane
> ( after all that is why you built it ) isn=92t it? Why else would you
> build a 701 if it wasn=92t for the STOL characteristics. ( Well there
> is also it=92s graceful beauty). Below is the meat of another post of
> which I agree with, I believe a 701 as designed is safer and far
> more capable then the altered version. Nonetheless, you need to
> know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned instructor in a 701.
> Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your plane can perform,
> you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a quick death
> as far as the 701 is concerned.
>
>
> Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their
> task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up. the wing with VGs will
> stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under. The slat does its
> magic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for
> early take off. Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not
> might, but will stall.
>
>
> Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take
> off in shorter distances then it already does don=92t you think that
> they would be SHOWING it off at theAirshows? It already beats
> everything on the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that
> they would love to beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the
> sales they would generate, and the awards)
>
>
> Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far
> better spent then on VG=92s. At least in the 701. But , you=92re the
> builder and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found
> on many occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless
> of the truth. Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes?
>
>
> Mark Townsend
>
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
>
> president@can-zacaviation.com
>
> www.can-zacaviation.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Tipton
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:59 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 landing issues
>
>
> FYI: I have no landing "problems" at any speed, no VGs and I have
> slats (150 hrs). Does any plane handle differently at different
> speeds? Yes. It is NOT a Cessna, NOT a Piper, NOT a Zenith 601,
> it is a Zenith 701. If you change what a Zenith 701 is, it is
> something different. For better or worse? Everyone will have a
> different opinion. I'm still learning to fly my Zenith 701 and
> love it. No plans to "improve" anything.
>
> 321PT
>
>
> - The Zenith-List Email Forum -
> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> --> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> 8/22/2007 9:05 AM
>
>
> 8/22/2007 9:05 AM
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
Not necessarily Snake oil, they are quite useful in a laminar flow plane
and for helping in certain designs. They really make a difference on a
glider I tried them on. They may even make a difference on a 601XL,
though I doubt it would be noticeable. But on the 701 and remove the
slats, PLEASE, the proof of the 701's performance has been shown time
and time again at the shows, if your not matching the performance that
you have seen at the airshows, I'm afraid to tell you it is not likely
the plane, however the pilot just needs a little tweaking. Essentially
if the 701 is not scarring the hell out of you on departure you are a
seasoned 701 pilot or not flying it to it's abilities. Vortex Generators
will improve a pilot who is in need of learning a STOL's capabilities,
but it is a dangerous band aid in my opinion and training will be far
more beneficial.
Though it is not so much training to fly the 701 it is more like
de-programming all those Cessna habits.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
As a side point, I think it petty that these people should charge money
for such simple things as VGs. Why not just share the idea and give
instructions for other builders (ie in the spirit of the movement). I
see no engineering or data points to substantiate that these things are
even adequately applied to the design.
Snake oil for airplanes?
8/22/2007 9:05 AM
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender Sealant |
Inquiring minds need to know:
Is there a history of the side mounted fuel senders LEAKING if using the
prescribed rubber ring (no sealant) method?
(The revised 701 plans now mount the sender in the side also).
I'm just curious if there is an actual history of failures (leaks) or if
this proseal recommendation is just for insurance's sake....
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Canopy weatherstrip |
I need a wider rear canopy weather strip for my 601 HD. Does anyone
know where there is a supply?
Thanks,
Jerry
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
Sure. I could refuel them between flights with Tabasco Sauce. Good Idea.
Dred
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Martin
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Two words: JATO bottles. :)
dredmoody@cox.net wrote:
>
> If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then
pull back to 15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I
stall? It's just a thought.....
>
> Dred
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender Sealant |
Probably a good idea to use hands you don't like too.
Dred
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Riedlinger
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant
<paulried@rogers.com>
Wear clothes you done like. Once it gets on your clothes, it will
never
come off! Also, use it in a well ventilated area. Pro-seal stinks to
high
heaven.
Message 25
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Goodyear or Metlife?
Dred
----- Original Message -----
From: Zed Smith
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:10 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: new thread
do not archive
Does one need more than one set of scales to weigh a blimp with VGs &
slats?
Kindest regards to all,
Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc
Message 26
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That combo could really give new meaning to STOL! VVSTOL? VTOL?
Jay
"Edward Moody II" <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
>Goodyear or Metlife?
>
>Dred
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Zed Smith
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:10 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: new thread
>
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Does one need more than one set of scales to weigh a blimp with VGs & slats?
>
>
> Kindest regards to all,
>
> Zed/701/R912/90+%/etc
>
Message 27
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Larry,
Probably not accurate anymore but here is the Aluminum price quotes from Yarde
as 10/06.
6061T6 Aluminum Sheet
0.016 4' X 12' sheet (#11.06 lbs per sheet) $34.28
0.025 4' X 12'......$90.00pc
0.025 4' X 6'.......$70.00pc
0.032 4' X 8'.......$90.00pc
0.040 4' X 8'.......$110.00pc
0.063 4' X 2'.......$50.00pc
0.090 2' X 2'.......$40.00pc
0.125 2' X 2'.......$45.00pc
>>
2024T3 Aluminum Bar
" X 1" X 1'..........$30.00pc
3/16" X 1 " X 1'.....$30.00pc (2024-T4) 1pc. X 1/2 X
2'.........$35.00pc
6061T6 Aluminum Angle
.750x.750x.125X 25'@ $22/pc
1 X 1 X 0.125 X 4'.......$40.00pc
>> 1 X 1 X 0.18 X 1'........$40.00pc
>Brian Johnson
> Yarde Metals
> 866-630-1220
> 336-883-6935 fax
Art
701
Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net> wrote:
Best prices on Aluminum used to be Yarde, it might still be.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130199#130199
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender Sealant |
use the gasket, and use the proseal, slather it on then screw everything n place.
voi La.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>Sent: Aug 22, 2007 3:08 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant
>
>
>I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders
in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got
done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or
tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender?
I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down
or not. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>--------
>David Gallagher
>601 XL, tail and wings completed,
>fueslage almost done, engine next.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Sender Sealant |
use the gasket, and use the proseal, slather it on then screw everything n place.
voi La.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>Sent: Aug 22, 2007 3:08 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Sender Sealant
>
>
>I have decided not to use the rubber gasket that comes with ZAC's fuel senders
in lieu of the Flamemaster sealant (used to be called Pro-Seal). I just got
done ordering some off of Van's web site. Does anybody here have any hint or
tips on using this stuff? How about a torquing sequence on the fuel sender?
I don't know if I should let this stuff cure a bit before tightening it down
or not. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>--------
>David Gallagher
>601 XL, tail and wings completed,
>fueslage almost done, engine next.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130292#130292
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy weatherstrip |
a card comes with the strip you have, call the company. just add a skirt in the
back.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jerry Goldberg <jgoldberg@seniorconnections.com>
>Sent: Aug 22, 2007 7:37 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy weatherstrip
>
>I need a wider rear canopy weather strip for my 601 HD. Does anyone
>know where there is a supply?
>
>
>Thanks,
>Jerry
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Mid-Atlantic Zenith Gathering at the EAA Chapter 186 Fall |
Flyin and Cruisin
The Gathering is now just a month away. It's time to make your plans to
come to Winchester, Virginia on September 22nd and 23rd. I have ordered the
banners, arranged for the tent and space to tie down our planes, and I'm
putting together a couple of static displays of typical Zenith parts and a
slide/video show to run. The EAA Chapter has finalized their plans for the
overall event. Posters are up in most area airports. We will have plenty
of space to sit around, socialize, and talk Zenith aircraft. So let's get
those calendars out!
Details on the Gathering are on the Zenith web site under the Events link
and on the EAA Chapter 186 web site. I can be reached at 703-471-1153 or at
the ZenithGathering@earthlink.net email address for any questions you have.
I appreciate the support from the following organizations:
HomeBuiltHelp
CAN-ZAC
Zenith Aircraft
EAA Chapter 186
Zenith Newsletter
Matronics
AMD
Jeff Davidson
CH601-HD/Jabiru 3300A
Not quite done yet ..
Message 32
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| Subject: | Fuel System Design |
Hey gang, It's time to begin the design of the fuel system. I have little experience
but I have placed a design document at this location:
and would like feedback. If I am off base here, let me know.
Basically I'm following the prints but substituting Stainless Braided line and
fittings from Earls. The document is linear in that it starts at the tank and
ends at the line to the carb.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=130369#130369
Message 33
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| Subject: | 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest |
IF your in Indiana then just head over to west of St Louis to the Zenith
Facility at Mexico , Missouri. Just call ahead and make sure Roger will
be there and the 701 will be present. They will be more then happy to
take you up for a demo flight.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
HYPERLINK
"mailto:president@can-zacaviation.com"president@can-zacaviation.com
HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Hey
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest
To Mark and every one else who responded, thanks. I will take your
advice to hitch a ride in a slated 701. I live in northeast Indiana but
I would drive all day for a demo ride. It is true that I have never
flown a true STOL aircraft so I do have much to learn. My background
is strictly tail draggers , two Luscombes and a Tailwind and mostly off
dirt. Just 300 hrs. I have no Cessna time. Jerry
8/22/2007 9:05 AM
8/22/2007 9:05 AM
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07 |
Let's kill all the bastards and let God sort it out!!! Best use of nukes for
peace I can think of -- I don't think our kids have the balls for IT!!
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zenith-List Digest Server" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:58 AM
Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 07/25/07
> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.
>
> Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested
> levels of files were found.
>
>
> For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit
> http://ses.symantec.com/
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